Should breed officials/judges tell which stallions to use??

[talloaks]

I read on another thread where the breed official has been telling mare owners which stallions to use for their mares, at least giving suggestions. This really shocked me since many years ago when I first started breeding warmbloods and would ask for suggestions, the answer always came back that as officials of the registry they could not single out any particular stallion. This was not right for the stallion owners for the breed officials and judges to be suggesting certain stallions to be used over others. The answer given was what the mare in question needed and could benefit from in a stallion and to look for that type of stallion. Since I was just beginning to breed warmbloods I found that rather frustrating, but I did study stallions and was able to make my own educated decisions. And my decisions have worked out very well with some very nice offspring.
So what do others think??
Which registeries tell you who to breed your mare to besides the one mentioned in another thread???
All opinions should make for an interesting discussion.

[graystonefarm]

A breeder should not be making breeding decisions for her mare based upon what physical attributes a stallion has, but what he consistently reproduces.

The reason why it is extremely beneficial to receive such recommendations is that the inspectors from Germany see hundreds of offspring from stallions which makes their insite very valuable when a breeder is looking to make specific improvements over the mare. I believe that an inspector who is willing to share such information truly wants to improve the breed.

[okggo]

BWP offered GENERAL suggestions (not stallion specific) when I was there - for example - "use a stallion known to throw or known with X attributes to best compliment this mare."

I attended an OLD-NA inspection and heard a judge tell a presenter NOT to repeat a cross (to a specific stallion), I can't remember if they gave alternative suggestions or not - but told them not to breed that mare to that specific stallion again.

[Overo]

I have a friend who is heavily involved in a WB breeding operation, has her own mare to breed and who takes a particular inspector's word as absolute gospel w.r.t. which stallion to breed to and when. I personally think it is wrong for a judge/inspector to recommend an individual stallion rather than make a more general suggestion about bloodlines that may cross well.

[SilverBalls]

Well lookie here....

Most "officials", and I guess you are referring to judges, stewards, committee members, show management, inspection panels etc., just happen to be professionals trying to earn a living in the horse world.
I do not think there is anything wrong with anyone voicing an opinion regardless of thier position at any given time. Personally, I solicit these opinions.

BUT... I do have a problem when people in these positions use "their influence" and manipulate the outcome. Like I have said time and time again.... Politics will never go away as long as there is no action for a blatant disregard to the sense of fair play.
I would not find it unusual to see a close knit HB group breeding to a particular "stallion du jour", possibly judging and rewarding each other when exhibiting the offspring. :eek: It all boils down to perception!

I would also wager that this happens in other venues as well!

[YankeeLawyer]

I hardly think the "official" in question stands to gain anything personally if a mareowner uses a stallion recommended by her. It happens that she probably sees thousands of foals a year here and in Germany, and might have some useful insights that others might appreciate.

I do not see the harm in suggesting particular stallions or bloodlines to compliment a mare. Mareowners are fully capable of making their own decisions and can choose to take the advice or ignore it. I am always curious to hear others' views - it certainly does not mean they will necessarily impact mine at all.

(And FWIW, my horses are registered Hanoverian and I have never witnessed an inspector recommending a particular stallion).

[SilverBalls]

"Kickbacks" come in various shapes & sizes :winkgrin:

[Rancho del Marr]

I missed the other thread. When do judges have the opportunity to recommend stallions? Is this done privately, or do they do it when giving the comments about the mare in the ring?

[YankeeLawyer]

"Kickbacks" come in various shapes & sizes :winkgrin:

Believe me, suggestions regarding stallion selection are among the more benign things said at inspections.

[pintopiaffe]

I had an Inspector make a recommendation for my old Trak mare. I was tickled pink to hear his opinion. I didn't take it, while that stallion is fabulous, he wasn't going to further my goals; BUT, it gave me an idea what type would work best with her. And knowing the quality of the stallion and his foals, I took it as a compliment too.

It was said after the inspections, during a casual lunch provided. I don't see how he could have gotten a kickback from it at all. Sure, it's possible, but knowing the SO, and dealing with the registry, honestly, I just don't think any kind of 'kickback' would be effective! Maybe another glass of wine? :lol:

The context was my mare was an older style, spitting image of her sire *Malachit, and pretty rare/precious bloodlines.

The registry is RPSI, and the same Inspectors do *all* of the horses each year. No difference in Europe and the US. ;)

[YankeeLawyer]

The registry is RPSI, and the same Inspectors do *all* of the horses each year.

I think ideally the same panel would evaluate all the horses (at least in the US) in a given yaer. I question how much consistency there is from one inspection to the next when panels differ (as they do within other registries).

[Rancho del Marr]

Was it Otto? When I took my mare and filly to an RPSI inspection back in 2007, he came by their stall after brandings, fussed over the mare and filly a bit and asked if I would be breeding her again. He was very nice. He wrote down his email and gave it to me, in case I had any questions later.

[tuckawayfarm]

I appreciated getting suggestions and insight from the judges. As has been stated, they have seen many foals by these bloodlines. It can be difficult to make decisions even from the best photos and video.

I would hope officials have a goal of improving the breed :)

While I got the "all of our stallions are wonderful" response from the AHS officials, I found the judges were very willing to talk specifics privately.

[Oakstable]

It would be interesting to know if inspectors give suggestions for both fresh and frozen stallions.

I think they should give suggestions if they are asked for them, privately.

[Dune]

I would think hearing the opinion of someone who has seen many different foals by all different stallions would be helpful. Of course, if you have a good result, you often will hear, "Don't change a thing!" (ask me how I know:winkgrin:)

[DownYonder]

Well, having heard these conversations many times between breeder and inspector, most of them go something like this:

Breeder: Can you give me stallion recommendations for my mare?

Inspector: Well, if she was my mare, I would look for a stallion that gives (correctness, better topline, more elasticity, better engine, quicker hindleg, longer legs, typeyness - whatever).

Breeder: Like which stallions?

Inspector: Well, if you are willing to use frozen, you might want to look at stallion A and stallion B. If you want to stay with a N.A. based stallion, then stallions C, D and E might be good with your mare. Also stallion F - he may not help with (xxxxxx), but he does tend to pass on (xxxxxx).

I think breeders without a lot of experience tend to appreciate getting stallion suggestions from people who have seen lots and lots of foals from various mare/stallion combinations. There are so many stallions out there now that breeders sometimes feel overwhelmed trying to sort through them all.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Most of us ony go to one, maybe two inspections per year. This means we see 7-10 foals tops. You can peruse the nursery pictures, but because people usually only send in a single, good snapshot, it is hard to tell anything. Why wouldn't you ask the people who see 1000+ foals per year? And why wouldn't they tell you? If they were telling everyone at avery inpection to breed to the same stallion, someone would have noticed by now.;)

Asking several stallion owners may not get you an honest response either. Although I have come across stallion owners over the years who have pointed me in other directions, most won't tell you if there is a better option out there for your mare.

[Astraled]

I think it sounds like a nice and helpful thing. It's a suggestion, not an order.

If it was along the lines of "Breed Stallion X, mention my name for a discount" type thing, that would be tacky and questionable in my opinion.

"Think about using a horse like Stallion X, he consistently adds length of leg and a well set neck" is completely different to me.

[Tornado Run Farm]

I read on another thread where the breed official has been telling mare owners which stallions to use for their mares, at least giving suggestions. This really shocked me since many years ago when I first started breeding warmbloods and would ask for suggestions, the answer always came back that as officials of the registry they could not single out any particular stallion. This was not right for the stallion owners for the breed officials and judges to be suggesting certain stallions to be used over others. The answer given was what the mare in question needed and could benefit from in a stallion and to look for that type of stallion. Since I was just beginning to breed warmbloods I found that rather frustrating, but I did study stallions and was able to make my own educated decisions. And my decisions have worked out very well with some very nice offspring.


I read the same thread as Talloaks, and was surprised that an "official" would recommend a specific stallion.

I think it's a slippery slope when someone in that capacity would suggest a stallion by name. What happens next year when the product of that match is presented and is less than stellar? The "official" would either show bias and maybe score higher than was warranted or if not scored high, open himself up to "splanin to do" because it was his suggestion in the first place. Even if the match was wonderful and a score reflected it, there would be that lingering question - did Muffy score that high because she was of superior quality? Or because Mr. Inspector suggested the match. If you're the owner of Muffy, you may think it's because of superior quality. But the Reserve Champion to your Site Champion, Muffy, may think otherwise. Regardless of the scenario and outcome, credibility is lost or questioned.

Too, I would think other SO's that pay their dues and get their stallions licensed would be a little miffed, and rightly so. After all, behind the "betterment of the breed" is the business. It's not in their interest to have Mr. Inspector name a stallion, unless of course it's HIS.

The most I would expect from a solicited suggestion is maybe bloodlines, type or attributes to look for - not a named stallion.

[SilverBalls]

I read the same thread as Talloaks, and was surprised that an "official" would recommend a specific stallion.

I think it's a slippery slope when someone in that capacity would suggest a stallion by name. What happens next year when the product of that match is presented and is less than stellar? The "official" would either show bias and maybe score higher than was warranted or if not scored high, open himself up to "splanin to do" because it was his suggestion in the first place. Even if the match was wonderful and a score reflected it, there would be that lingering question - did Muffy score that high because she was of superior quality? Or because Mr. Inspector suggested the match. If you're the owner of Muffy, you may think it's because of superior quality. But the Reserve Champion to your Site Champion, Muffy, may think otherwise. Regardless of the scenario and outcome, credibility is lost or questioned.

Too, I would think other SO's that pay their dues and get their stallions licensed would be a little miffed, and rightly so. After all, behind the "betterment of the breed" is the business. It's not in their interest to have Mr. Inspector name a stallion, unless of course it's HIS.

The most I would expect from a solicited suggestion is maybe bloodlines, type or attributes to look for - not a named stallion.

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

[Iron Horse Farm]

I read the same thread as Talloaks, and was surprised that an "official" would recommend a specific stallion.

I think it's a slippery slope when someone in that capacity would suggest a stallion by name. What happens next year when the product of that match is presented and is less than stellar? The "official" would either show bias and maybe score higher than was warranted or if not scored high, open himself up to "splanin to do" because it was his suggestion in the first place. Even if the match was wonderful and a score reflected it, there would be that lingering question - did Muffy score that high because she was of superior quality? Or because Mr. Inspector suggested the match. If you're the owner of Muffy, you may think it's because of superior quality. But the Reserve Champion to your Site Champion, Muffy, may think otherwise. Regardless of the scenario and outcome, credibility is lost or questioned.

Too, I would think other SO's that pay their dues and get their stallions licensed would be a little miffed, and rightly so. After all, behind the "betterment of the breed" is the business. It's not in their interest to have Mr. Inspector name a stallion, unless of course it's HIS.

The most I would expect from a solicited suggestion is maybe bloodlines, type or attributes to look for - not a named stallion.


Don't you think that this is a bit of conspiracy theory? If inspectors named a few stallions for each mare owner, that would be over 5,000 suggestions per inspection tour. You really think that a year from then (actually two, since mares are usually already rebred at inspection time) the inspectors are going to remember what suggestions that they made??? Come on! And to say that other competitors are going to think that horses won (or were premium or whatever) because of a suggestion made casually two years ago? Rubbish!

I'm still trying to use a suggestion that a now-retired inspector gave me 5 years ago. I still have the mare and the stallion still lives, so who is going to benefit from that suggestion?

[STF]

I guess Im getting old and tired, but I welcome any advice and take it as that. I weight out details later, but would never get mad at anyone for an opinion. Even if a inspector had ties to the stallion he was recommending, I dont think I would take it negative. Its an opinion and is taken as one.

[YankeeLawyer]

I think it's a slippery slope when someone in that capacity would suggest a stallion by name. What happens next year when the product of that match is presented and is less than stellar? The "official" would either show bias and maybe score higher than was warranted or if not scored high, open himself up to "splanin to do" because it was his suggestion in the first place. Even if the match was wonderful and a score reflected it, there would be that lingering question - did Muffy score that high because she was of superior quality? Or because Mr. Inspector suggested the match. If you're the owner of Muffy, you may think it's because of superior quality. But the Reserve Champion to your Site Champion, Muffy, may think otherwise. Regardless of the scenario and outcome, credibility is lost or questioned.

Holy cow.

Inspections, and inspectors' opinons, are not that important. Really, they are not. They simply provide some information, based on a snapshot in time of the horses being evaluated. Do what you want with that information - be it the evaluation of a mare, foal, stallion, or stallion recommendation. The only thing that gives inspectors so much "power" are attitudes like the above.

I also doubt this issue would have been raised at all if the stallion recommendation had been made at an AHS, KWPN, or OLD/ISR inspection.

[Iron Horse Farm]

I also doubt this issue would have been raised at all if the stallion recommendation had been made at an AHS, KWPN, or OLD/ISR inspection.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[talloaks]

I also doubt this issue would have been raised at all if the stallion recommendation had been made at an AHS, KWPN, or OLD/ISR inspection.


YL, I wouldn't be SO SURE!! It doesn't matter which registry, what matter is that it is being done. What do the stallion owners think of registry officials and judges suggesting stallions and directing business in a certain direction??

[sniplover]

I asked an inspector for stallion suggestions and she gave a wide variety of marvelous suggestions; fresh, frozen, here and abroad (well, not fresh and abroad other than Canada :lol:) with specific things each stallion could improve on said mare.

As far as I can tell, the inspector did not have connections to all of those stallions (if any). Nor did we actually take up the specific suggestions as they were a bit much for the budget. HOWEVER we did look for stallions that accomplished similar corrections and were performance tested/approved as well.

[camohn]

I guess Im getting old and tired, but I welcome any advice and take it as that. I weight out details later, but would never get mad at anyone for an opinion. Even if a inspector had ties to the stallion he was recommending, I dont think I would take it negative. Its an opinion and is taken as one.

ditto
No harm in looking at a stallion I might not have considered

[Tornado Run Farm]

Holy cow.

Inspections, and inspectors' opinons, are not that important. Really, they are not. They simply provide some information, based on a snapshot in time of the horses being evaluated. Do what you want with that information - be it the evaluation of a mare, foal, stallion, or stallion recommendation. The only thing that gives inspectors so much "power" are attitudes like the above.

I also doubt this issue would have been raised at all if the stallion recommendation had been made at an AHS, KWPN, or OLD/ISR inspection.


Oh paleeeze... my little scenarios were said facetiously, not meant to be taken literally - at least a few people got me. :rolleyes:.

To be fair, like YL, I've not been to an inspection where an inspector HAS named a specific stallion(s), so yes, I was surprised it was done. I wouldn't think an inspector would have the time to consider all the stallions in their roster, bloodlines, nicks & types they cross well with, assess the mare in the 10 min. they see her, consider her bloodlines, what she typically produces, know the breeding goals, then synthesize all that information on the spot to make conscientious suggestions - WITHOUT slighting any lesser known stallions in their roster.

Either you respect the opinions of those you ask because you believe they took all the above into consideration, then spend your time to investigate them - or as YL says, you think "inspectors' opinions are not that important" and give them the same credence as offered to you. But if that's the case, why ask? I'm in the camp, why ask? I don't think any inspector know my mares, bloodlines, traits they typically pass on, my goals, etc. more than I do. People who REALLY take all that into consideration charge for their opinions.

But anyway, that's what I think, as asked by the OP. It has NOTHING to do with registries - apparently some people don't think beyond those terms though...::sigh:

[DownYonder]

I also doubt this issue would have been raised at all if the stallion recommendation had been made at an AHS, KWPN, or OLD/ISR inspection.

I think you are probably right about this. :lol:

Actually, the first time I ever heard an inspector make a specific stallion recommendation was at a KWPN inspection way back in the 80's. The next time I heard it, it was at an ISR inspection, and that inspector recommended the same two stallions (owned by a certain big name farm) for three different mares owned by different people. ;)

At any rate, for those that think there is some kind of conspiracy going on - Good Lord. Does it ever cross your mind that maybe the inspectors are trying to help the breeder make the best choice possible for their mare? Or do you honestly think the inspectors are "in cahoots" with some stallion owners? What do you think the benefit is to the inspectors to recommend some stallions over others? Do you really think they receive some sort of "kickback" (as one poster on this thread suggested)? :eek:

[janderegelaar]

The KWPN in Holland actually offers stallion advices if requested. The inspector occasionly even comes to your stable to look at the mare and give advice.
Perfect system if you ask me.

[mbp]

I asked for and received some info from inspectors for SWANA and GOV on two separate occassions. I've seen it done elsewhere, but always in a private context, not offered up for example during a mare inspection, with *everyone* told that this mare would cross well with ...

On both occassions I asked privately, I was questioned on what I wanted to accomplish and was given some up sides and down sides with respect to the stallions they recommended and what I wanted. A breeder here in the states, esp then but still now, has no opportunity to get the same kinds of info that foreign breeders can get or that inspectors have. We don't get to see many stallions in person. We don't get to see big representations of get. We don't have great statistics info (althought that is not true across the board in the registiries and it is getting better).

So why would you want to belong to a registry if it is so unhelpful that you can't get some info on what kind of stallions might help you with XYZ for your mare, after the registry has looked at your mare? If they just say - go jump in the lake and see if you end up swimming or if there is a croc there all on your own - that's a pretty bleak aspect for a small breeder who has so much on the line as it is anyway.

The info I got back was always temered - This guy may give you what you want on A,B,C, but he may throw a bit older style, than you like; this guy may give you A, & B and more modern style, but he's doesn't stamp C very well, this guy has some great offspring with type, A, B& C, but he's inconsistent or he doesn't cover mares with genotypes like yours much, etc.

I'm sure there are politics and other issues out there, but I was nothing but happy with the technical aspects of the info I was given and the spirit (and definite lack of pressure) in which it was offered and the fact that they mentioned things I would have had a hard time, esp. then, finding out on my own.

Of course, that was all before the explosion of the COTH breeding forum ...

[Rancho del Marr]

I would think the inpectors would be excellent judges of who might cross well with your mare, and shoot, if I had known this was a possibility I might have asked myself, during the lunch break or something.

This question is a little off topic, but when they are in the ring making comments about the mare, I can't always hear or understand what they are saying, due to sound system, accents, etc. I wish they could give us the comments in written form. Is there any way to get that, or do you just get the one chance to hear the comments?