Opinions Please: "A" Show Riders at Small County Shows [Archive]

Jsalem

Aug. 11, 2009, 08:52 AM

We hear that attitude in our area. We have local shows and "A" rated shows. Some trainers (including myself) have a mix of clients that show where their schedules and budgets will allow. Some of the "Local only" riders grumble about the expensive, "A" show horses attending "their" shows. The funny thing is- some of those "A" show horses cost less than the Local ones! The difference is in the program. Time and time again, we've taken inexpensive, but nice quality horses and developed them into horses that can be competitive at A and AA shows.

I was certainly a "Local" rider/trainer at one time. I welcomed the better competition so that I could learn and improve. I like to get beat by horses/riders that are better! You watch them prepare, school, show and you ask questions. When you beat them or even place amongst them, good for you! Now that's something to be proud of.

We've lately been doing many AA shows, so I've not been to as many locals. Several weeks ago, we took a group of younger horses and novice kids to a nearby local show. I was absolutely shocked at the dirty, manure stained horses and the grungy, ill fitting tack. Not surprisingly from the quality of the turnout, the performances were very poor. Unbalanced, bad jumping horses running through lead changes and running down lines to "get the numbers". That isn't about money, it's about standards.

So no, I have no problem with "A" show riders at Small County Shows. Make sure that everyone follows the rules and have a real horse race! Step it up!

2bayboys

Aug. 11, 2009, 08:57 AM

If you wanted the "A" show riders to stay home, how exactly would that be accomplished? And to what end?

I had a competitive A/A horse and we dabbled in the A/O's. Now he is sold and I have two fancy young horses, for whom it is very appropriate to get affordable mileage at the local shows. They are absolutely eligible for the classes I take them in, and they do well because they are quality horses getting good training and I can usually find the jumps. My budget doesn't allow me to get this mileage exclusively at the "A" shows, and I love the convenience of one-day shipping in with post entries and more casual turnout. I'm not there to take anybody's points away but just to get good experience for my greenies. Is that bad?

Ozone

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:01 AM

Better competition makes better riders all around!

Trixie

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:12 AM

Here in Virginia we are blessed to have excellent local circuits that are worth attending. Many, many riders show at both, and many trainers choose to attend both.

That being said, I'd never have a problem with so-called "A circuit riders" choosing to show locally. It's a competition, first of all. But secondly, you don't know what the situation is. Local shows are more economical - people who could afford the "A" circuit in previous years can't anymore. People who ride green horses that don't want to spend the money to do a 2'6" class at an "A" show. There are any number of completely valid reason to show at local shows when one primarily competes on the "A" circuit.

So, can you really tell a rider who still wants to show but can't afford $1000/show anymore that they can't play in an available sandbox?

Or are you going to tell the amateur rider who won in the AA's for ten years, had a fall, and now wants to compete exclusively over 2' to get their confidence back that they can't play either?

Are you going to tell a rider that they can't take their spazzing greenie to a local show because they've competed at "A" shows before, and that in order to get him exposure they must spend thousands to compete?

Where does it end? And how can you justify discriminating against some people because they've entered higher level competition in the past? Really, most riders that compete on the "A" circuit aren't attending local shows to take ribbons away from children.

Really, I think the only people that complain about this sort of thing are complaining because they're bitter.

cloudyandcallie

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:14 AM

Just think if you beat the A riders! What a story to be able to tell everyone. :cool:

sansibar

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:18 AM

Thats what I am doing this summer with a green bean while I showed the other horse at the rated A shows. I personally like showing against the best of the best, so if you beat the best you will feel great about it! When I was young and I had beat some top name A rider at a schooling show I was so proud even though I only ended up with a 4th or something it was better when I was champion against beginner kids.

Dakotawyatt

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:23 AM

Even big league, big money NASCAR drivers occasionally step down and do some dirt track racing every now and then ... makes big money for the track owner!

DraftHorsePower

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:28 AM

Maybe the riders or horses need some confidence building, I don't see anything wrong with it. Especially since everyone is trying to save some money. I am the president of the Boise Saddle and Jump Club and this economy has actually been great for our little non rated shows, our attendance is better than it has been in years.

Besides... more competition is a good thing, I mean, who just wants to be the "best of the bad"... if they're good riders, they'll be good riders regardless of who they're competing against. Money doesn't buy talent and hard work.

RockinHorse

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:36 AM

I don't see a problem with it. People should show where they like. And remember, just because someone is/was showing at "A" shows, doesn't necessarily mean that they were winning or even that they are all that much better a rider than anyone else. All it takes to ride in an "A" show is a big enough check book.

twofatponies

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:40 AM

Just reminds me of a teenage moment in the UK. My aunt had organized a little neighborhood charity show - there seemed to be lots of these every weekend. My cousin and I spent hours polishing her fat little pony for the turnout and equitation classes and dusting off some mismatched old show clothes. Just as the show started up pulled a fancy horse trailer and out walked a five-star show pony and a rider dressed to the nines. Miles above the quality of the local kids! She, of course, took most of the first place ribbons, and my cousin sulked terribly. In retrospect funny, and certainly "fair" and the charity got her entry fees, too, so... but it put us in our place!!!

Janet

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:53 AM

When I was a kid, we ran a Pony Club benefit show. And when I say "we" I mean the kids.

The ONLY adults involved were the judge (one of the graduate Pony Clubbers as I remember, not a fully licensed judge), and some parent with a bank account.

The smallest, most unprestigious show possible.

After the show had been running for about 30 minutes, guess who shows up (hacking, no trailer or van)?

Buddy Brown with one of Mrs Waller's show ponies turned out to the nines.

I don't think anyone complained, and the show was so successful that the next year the grownups took it over.

Valeureux

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:55 AM

I think that it should be perfectly acceptable for 'A' riders to show at some of the local shows. The barn that I board at right now used to be one of the barns that showed at only 'A' shows, myself included. But the thing was, I couldn't really compete against the kids I was riding against who had pro's constantly riding their horses and showed every weekend, because my family couldn't afford it. Recently, with lack of willing clientele, we've decided to go to a smaller local show, which i'm thrilled to attend. I think that I'll have a better chance of doing well than I would at the large 'A' shows, and my greenie needs the exposure. I see no problem with 'A' riders and horses going to some of the local shows! :)

see u at x

Aug. 11, 2009, 09:57 AM

I have no problem with it provided that people are showing in the appropriate divisions and if the show has more divisions for those who are green riders and horses. I believe that a good balance can be found, but it might take a little more effort and planning on the part of show management.

As an adult rider trying to get my confidence back, the local shows I've been to are a godsend. One of the local show series in my area seems to have good classes for the most part, but the only division that I can really show in is Adult Student Equitation - and I'm definitely NOT an equitation rider. Especially when riding green horses - I'm focusing more on making sure my horse is performing OK than whether or not I look good on her. Up until a couple of months ago, I couldn't have done the over fences class of that division, so I just opted to not even go to the show series at all for the rest of the season. Haven't gone to it this year at all, because it seems like kind of a waste to just enter two classes.

findeight

Aug. 11, 2009, 10:29 AM

I don't even see the point of this thread. Bit of a rare rant coming here.

Because even if you have a problem with it, what do you want to do? Hang a sign out front that says if you show at the A's stay away? Or if you are really good, we don't want you because we are not so good. Or, maybe, change the classes around so if you have ever won anything anywhere rated, you are not eligible even on a different horse.Think about that for a minute.

I have always been delighted when those I see as better then I am step in the ring against me. if I win, I feel like I have accomplished something. If not, I watch them to see what I could do better-like a free lesson, especially of you watch the schooling ring.

My, relatively short and mild, rant on this...

Over the years my pet peeve with shows is those who stay right where they are because that is where they can win. Forget finances, they can afford it, they just choose to be the big fish in the small pond. They never step up but are the first ones to whine "that's no fair"...kind of turn some local circuits into their personal sandbox.

These people do venture to the next level and it's always somebody else's fault when they do not sweep every class. They got screwed by the judge, the trainer did not prep the horse properly and so forth NEVER a hint of maybe they were not the best.
Horse shows should be about seeing where you are in relation to others. About seeking to be better. About learning to watch others who ARE better. But when nobody is better? Some start thinking they are top dog in the great scheme of things...then you get others emulating them instead of somebody truely good. You also get "trainers" coming out of this environment passing on the attitude that it is all about winning and keep their clients protected against finding out they are not so good after all.

I cannot afford the As anymore and both self and horse are...well...past prime. And that is what I miss most. Seeing better and competing against top level horses...my last A show at 3' I was soundly beaten by Dialogue L and Skyy-because they were better and anything they did do wrong, they did it better then I did it right.

Shows are come one, come all and if you get beat by better? It's fair and you need to work to get better. And lose the attitude about keeping standards as low as possible and resenting anybody perceived as better.

OK, that's all.

magnolia73

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:10 AM

One of the oddest things growing up for me- if my division was 6 people on horses that mine could beat, I'd get all nervous and ride like an idiot and get 6 of 6 due to my errors. If I looked on the list and saw 50 entries, half ridden by pro, fancy horses.... all the sudden I'd ride like a rock star and catch a 5th or 6th in awesome company- why? The pressure to win was gone.

That said.... a lot of parents who pay the bill$ are into "everyone wins" level playing field type hoopla. I think that is why there is a million and one divisions at local shows. You run the risk of them getting disenchanted with their kid getting squarely beaten. I think that is an issue the trainer needs to address with parents. Set expectations that speak to performance and not ribboning. The show's responsibility is to offer a safe competition and make sure classes are run fairly with respect to no crooked judges and people entering what they are eligible for, not making sure everyone gets a ribbon.

My horse is just entering her show career. Trainer showed her at our barn's local show, and she was absolutely perfect- and while it was nice to get a tricolor, I know it was a competition of 3 horses (one all of 3 years old, one ridden by a kid). The ribbon is a nice momento. I look at it as a reward for her being good, not a pronouncement that she was tops in the competition. Had Don Stewart shown up with 15 open hunters, shutting my horse out of any ribbons, I wouldn't have cared...and had she pulled a prize in that company I'd have probably been absolutely ecstatic. LOL, had she won a tri-color? She'd be for sale with an extra zero over her purchase price! It is neat to see how you rank against the big guys.

Renn/aissance

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:21 AM

I'm of mixed minds about this. Our local circuit has a lot of crossover between itself and the A shows in the area, and I've been pulled aside (a couple of times, now I think about it) by another competitor in my division and told that I don't belong showing locally considering that I also show the A's. Considering that one of those people was something like fifth in the zone points and still showing locally in my division as well, I had a hard time taking her seriously, but since other people had said the same thing, it gave me an opportunity to think about it.

Increasing the level of competition makes everyone step up their game. I'm a competitive person. If someone beats me one week, I watch them, I see what they do well, and I try to do it better. So now there are two people stepping it up. That inspires a third. Soon enough you get the whole division working on it. It's good for us. Excluding A-circuit riders on the assumption that they are better than the local level riders lowers the standards and the caliber of the local level.

On the other hand, I see the point made by the people who complain. If you are showing in the Medal and Maclay, to me it seems unsportsmanlike to go back to the local shows and chase points in the 3' age-group equitation. If you're leading your zone in the A/Os, it seems unsportsmanlike for you to take that same A/O horse and chase points locally in a lower division. To me, that's the same as putting a kid who's happened to win the Pony Medal at Pony Finals (and maybe one or two other blues) in a Novice Equitation class which on that circuit is traditionally the next step out of Short Stirrup--while the kid may be technically qualified for the Novice class, by virtue of her performance elsewhere, she is in fact overqualified. A good rider schooling a horse in a local division, or bringing a young one along? No problem. Deliberately lowering your standards for the sake of points? Just not sporting.

To my mind, if you're going to cross over into the local stuff, ride in a division appropriate to your ability, and behave in a sportsmanlike manner. Hmm, sounds like the exact same thing you should be doing on ANY circuit, regardless of where else you show.

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:40 AM

I don't even see the point of this thread....

I'm curious about people's thoughts on this because I write about horse shows, and
I've started to hear complaints from exhibitors and parents about the "big" riders coming down to the small shows. These complaints are new this year - I haven't heard them in the past.

Just to clarify: bringing green horses is not a problem at these small local shows. It's the experienced riders with the finished horses that are coming in and competing.

More questions: As we always say, it's important to encourage the young riders and the beginners to continue to learn, improve, and move up the ranks, so we have new riders coming into our sport. If they're discouraged because of an unlevel playing field again and again, they give up and don't come back, and find another sport where they can compete against those of similar skill levels, until they can move up.

Is the answer just to add more restricted classes ?

What responsibility (if any) do trainers have to keep their experienced riders/horses out of the small shows ? Does good sportsmanship have a role ?

Also: if a big fish wins a class in a small pond, where is the quality of competition for them ?

(I'm just asking the questions, and interested in hearing all sides)

TheHunterKid90

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:44 AM

I am an A circuit rider that dabbles at the local shows alot and I see no problem with it!
I use the local shows as an effective and cheaper way to get off the farm and fix some issues...in other words, we don't have a large enough ring to set up an entire course of fences so our courses are outside in our mowed hay field...it works quite well but it's a whole different ball game in the ring...hense why I pack my young horses to Bucks County Thursday Morning Shows about 2 times a month to show over a course of fences...it's also very beneficial when I'm trying to move a young horse up a division (Schooling Hunters to the 3' Division)
Additionally, someone mentioned how even if you're beat by better riders that it shouldn't matter! I completely agree! I am a junior rider and I have a 5 y/o that I'm currently showing in the Pre Green's....I could show him in the Children's Division as both of us are eligable but I love the experience of showing against the professionals! Last week at the Sussex Fair I had a 4th and 3 7ths in the Pre Greens competing against many excellent professionals and lovely horses...in a month or so he will be moving up to the 3'6...again, I could show him in the Junior's but I'm opting for the First Year Greens instead...I don't want to be in any way sheltered from the best of the best...I see that the only wy I will learn is to watch and lose (or win :lol: ) in the best company. :)

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:48 AM

Renn/aisance: sorry.. it seems I asked about some of the same things you mentioned.
Both writing at the same time...

Moocow

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:48 AM

When I am showing against a pro in at a non-rated show, I have no problem with it. However, like you said, some people do. Now I am no pro, but if I happen to be at a show where I am at a considerably higher level than the other riders (even if I am on a much greener horse) I usually ask to go aux concours. (sp?) Then I still get the horse into the ring but hopefully don't make anybody mad at the same time!

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:51 AM

I am an A circuit rider that dabbles at the local shows alot and I see no problem with it!
I use the local shows as an effective and cheaper way to get off the farm and fix some issues...

When you go to the local shows for your schooling, do you ride hors de concours ?

TheHunterKid90

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:57 AM

When you go to the local shows for your schooling, do you ride hors de concours ?

and that means what? :D

Giddy-up

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:01 PM

Is the answer just to add more restricted classes ?

What responsibility (if any) do trainers have to keep their experienced riders/horses out of the small shows ? Does good sportsmanship have a role ?

Also: if a big fish wins a class in a small pond, where is the quality of competition for them ?

(I'm just asking the questions, and interested in hearing all sides)

To answer your questions....

1) Our local unrated circuit doesn't need more divisions. We currently have 48 year end divisions. Some have a hard time filling at shows as it is. There is IMHO an overload of under 2'6" divisions between all the eq & hunter & medals offered. If you can't come to those shows & find something to show in, then perhaps you aren't ready to be showing yet (or at least not at these shows). We have everything from w-t to the 3'6" hunters & jumpers from 2'9-3'9". There simply isn't enough daylight in 3 days to add anymore classes!

2) What trainer is going to tell their clients who WANT to show they can't & have to stay home?? Trainers make their money going to shows with clients. Trainers attract possible new clients by being seen at shows & having clients that do well. It is in the trainer's interest to attend shows. I have never heard of anybody wanting to move to a trainer that "doesn't show much & when they do they don't do very well either". The trainer's "responsibility" is to make sure their riders are showing in classes they meet the criteria for & are appropriate to be showing in (no 3'6" big eq kid doing a maiden eq crossrail class).

3) the big fish, small pond...that can happen anywhere. Not all the divisions are overflowing at all the A/AA shows either. You attend the right shows at the right times & you too can be the winner with a mediocre horse or mediocre rounds. Also, who knows who's going to show up at shows so how do they know the level of competition for the weekend ahead of time? You might get 5 really good horses to show up or 20 so-so ones. I don't get this question I guess? :confused:

see u at x

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:02 PM

and that means what? :D

Unjudged...not competing.

Janet

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:04 PM

and that means what? :D
"hors de concour" (or, more commonly, just "hors concours") means "outside the competition". You get judged, but you don't get a ribbon.

At recognized shows, you can compete hors concours (abbreviated HC) in eventing and dressage, but not in hunters.

Some unrecognized hunter shows let you go "unjudged", but that is not quite the same thing.

In eventing and dressage, even if you compete HC, you still get a score, and a dressage test sheet, so you can see EXACTLY where you would have placed if you have been competing for a ribbon.

When you go in a hunter class "unjudged" you usually have no idea whether you would have won the class or been out of the ribbons.

Giddy-up

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:05 PM

When you go to the local shows for your schooling, do you ride hors de concours ?

umm...no. The local unrated shows by me cost almost as much as an A show & don't offer any prize money back to possibly offset the office bill. If I am paying for it, I want the judge's opinion.

Trixie

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:06 PM

Just to clarify: bringing green horses is not a problem at these small local shows. It's the experienced riders with the finished horses that are coming in and competing.

I would imagine it’s primarily economical, particularly if this is recent phenomenon. The economy is basically shot right now, not everyone – including those who showed on the “A” circuit exclusively in years past – can afford to attend “A” rated horse shows.

More questions: As we always say, it's important to encourage the young riders and the beginners to continue to learn, improve, and move up the ranks, so we have new riders coming into our sport. If they're discouraged because of an unlevel playing field again and again, they give up and don't come back, and find another sport where they can compete against those of similar skill levels, until they can move up.

Is the answer just to add more restricted classes ?

Our shows here offer “student hunter” or maiden and limit classes – open to riders who are either in their first few years of showing, or who haven’t won much. That way, those who are beginners have a place. The same show might then offer an open low hunter or 2’6” division that anyone can enter – and that’s exactly what it means. Open to all.

Generally, our 2'6" divisions are quite large but it's rare that a solid round won't pin. If you're incapable of putting together 8 fences but still expect to always win something, perhaps some rethinking one's viewpoint on the sport is in order.

What responsibility (if any) do trainers have to keep their experienced riders/horses out of the small shows ? Does good sportsmanship have a role ?

“Keep them out” – really? Personally, I can’t see any reason to be excluding anyone.

Sportsmanship is important in that a rider should follow the rules and enter what they’re permitted to enter. But an open division is an open division, being exclusionary hurts the horse show and impedes progress and improvement. If it’s that dreadfully important for everyone to win something, have an in-farm show. Otherwise, it’s a competition.

I will say that I’ve met very, very few riders that bother to bring their AA hunters down to local shows in order to get a couple of extra blue ribbons.

Also: if a big fish wins a class in a small pond, where is the quality of competition for them ?

Hopefully, it’ll grow the small pond.

I’ve watched some of our local series’ grow – shows that maybe offered one 3’ option began hearing interest for a 3’6” option, so they offered that. An outside course, new divisions – there’s no reason for an unrecognized show to remain stagnant and ONLY cater to beginners. Especially in this economy.

supershorty628

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:09 PM

Mardi, I think you're seeing a result of the recession. The A circuit is very expensive, and a lot of people are choosing not to play at that level anymore because of the cost. However, to bar those people from the local shows would be to penalize them for previously having the money to play in the big leagues. Is that fair? Where can those riders show if they cannot afford the big shows and no one wants them to be at the show that don't cost as much?

I don't think it is right for an A circuit rider to go to a local show solely for the purpose of sweeping a division and coming home with a handful of blue ribbons. I also don't think that the system should be changed so that virtually everyone wins a class. This is supposed to be competition, after all, and if one wants to win, that person must strive to be better than the others.

Last winter, I went to a series of unrecognized jumper schooling shows. I took my junior jumper (at the time we were doing the lows very successfully at the AA shows) and did the highest classes that were offered, which I think were level 4 or 5. I wasn't there to blow people out of the water, but I needed to get my horse to a show without going to Florida, which is much too expensive for me. We showed against some professionals, some amateurs, and some juniors, and yes, we won, but no one was upset by it. That's just how it was.

imapepper

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:10 PM

and that means what? :D

It means that you go in for an unjudged round.....usually you would turn your number around so it doesn't show or let the judge/gate know that you were not to be judged.

I have gone to some local shows strictly for schooling purposes. I didn't ride h/c in my last one but since I made some circles and trotted into a line or two....I wasn't very worried about taking someone else's ribbon ;) We were very obviously schooling. And the class that I rode in was an open class. Actually it was most of the pros warming their client's horse up so I really didn't feel like I needed to ride h/c.

I personally like some of our local shows better than the A shows. The last couple of A shows that I went and watched frankly didn't have any better riding.....people were just paying more for the priviledge of showing in an A show ;) I will probably show mostly locally for awhile since my horse is on the green side. When we get to the point that we are ready for 3'6" and higher.....then I will start paying for the A shows again. Why pay more and travel further until then? Heck some of the prizes are better at the locals anyways. They have fun stuff like treats, tack store gift certificates and cuter ribbons :winkgrin:

ToTheNines

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:13 PM

IMO, a winning round is a winning round no matter what the level of show. At the 3' level and below, if you put in a smooth even round, you will get pinned high even if your horse is not that fancy. When you have a trip like that, you are happy and you know it. When I have a trip like that I want it against the best competition available! Our local shows are competitive because we get some A show riders with fancy horses, and some fabulous local riders with not so fancy horses but the ability to put in a great trip.

findeight

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:16 PM

I've started to hear complaints from exhibitors and parents about the "big" riders coming down to the small shows. These complaints are new this year - I haven't heard them in the past.

What responsibility (if any) do trainers have to keep their experienced riders/horses out of the small shows ? Does good sportsmanship have a role ?

Well child, I've been hearing the exact same complaint since I started over 40 years ago. Not a thing new there.

So, I guess I just retire myself and the horse so I never ruin anybody's self esteem, just stop showing? Sorry, I'm not spending 250+ to show unjudged if I am legal for the class and, honestly, I don't need the experience or any more miles. And trainers tell their clients to pack up and move on if they cannot afford the A's?

That is what you are suggesting. Been there, done that, stay away from my local show ring. Stay at the As or quit showing.

One of the great pluses of this particular sport is that all compete together based on level. Understand I have no use for those that cheat, lie about eligibility or go bottom fishing for local points just to get a ribbon and a couple of points.
And there is a difference between a good local and a backyard type local. If everybody else is in rubber boots and their mothers work blazer on a 40 year old school Pony? Then, yeah, you really should not be there. Otherwise, you have every right.

But anybody has a right to go horse show at any horse show and trainers and parents need to teach that the world will not bend just so they get a prize...if they need a prize to feel good, you failed. Excluding those under 5 in the tiny tots, they can all get the blues...after that, they need to grow up and realize sports has winners and non winners. No losers and nobody should feel like they are a loser just because they did not get a prize, they just were not the best on that particular day. But that comes from parents and good trainers and real self esteem that does not come from getting a prize.

And by all means, add some maiden classes for those never winning a blue anywhere in Hunters and Eq...but age group Eq is age group Eq regardless of the show rating and that's fair.

80s rider

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:43 PM

There are a few 4H riders where we board our pony. Some of the Mom's are complaining that "some people are now showing very expensive "A" hunters at the 4H shows, and it's just not right".
I have also witnessed some of these "local" trainers that do well at the 4H shows, discourage their clients from moving up to the next level. They also tell clients the only reason the "A" horse won is because he costs more $$$. (But I guess that's topic for another thread).

2bayboys

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:47 PM

If you go unjudged then the judge takes that opportunity to update their card, go to the bathroom, check their cell phone. I want the judge's opinion (I'm paying for it!) so I never go unjudged unless I'm entering a class for which I am not eligible.

magnolia73

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:49 PM

And there is a difference between a good local and a backyard type local. If everybody else is in rubber boots and their mothers work blazer on a 40 year old school Pony? Then, yeah, you really should not be there. Otherwise, you have every right.

I think the really lower end shows, where people are in blazers and rubber boots aren't the ones that attract A barns. There is a circuit near me like that... they do things like don't measure lines and have bad footing and aspects that A barns will pass right over.

My barn puts on good shows, good footing, good courses and we do get some crossover. LOL, last show, one barn brought their summer camp kids to toodle around in the beginner divisions and a pony bound for pony finals to do the pony division. It works out fine- the kid headed for pony finals would not be eligible to compete against the camp kids. And the bigger divisions- the 3'/3'6 never fills, and when you do get people in those classes, they might not be ready to win at an A show, but certainly are not pathetic- you'll have to find your jumps and get your changes to beat 'em. The open division is a catch all and it gets a spectrum of quality, but you know that going into it.

There will always be *that barn* that shows up for the sole purpose of collecting $.50 scraps of satin. Everyone kind of knows who they are and rolls their eyes. And you know...when they get beat by a schoolie with a kid in rubber boots.... it must hurt.

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 12:58 PM

CON:Trainers who regularly go to the small shows say they want their riders to show against riders of similar skill and on a level playing field as they gain show experience. Their clients (and horse show parents) aren't happy;some trainers are not returning to those shows, and going elsewhere.

Opinions, please. Thanks.

I'd welcome A riders with open arms. It would increase the level of competition, show what a real nice round is, push the lower people to get better, etc. I see no cons.

Trainers wanting their students to 'show on a level playing field' is a cop-out. What that really means is they want them to show at a level where they can be successful and parents will keep paying them to train their kids to a mediocre level. Trainers who say stuff like that probably can't train their students to a high enough level to be competitive, which exposes holes in their teaching/training methodology and are afraid their students are going to realize they aren't the shit and will want to go elsewhere. Their barn motto should be "let's be mediocre together."

2bayboys

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:00 PM

I just don't see it happening, where the competitive A rider and horse are showing up at a local show just for those ribbons. Most every serious A barn values those weekends when you and the horses can stay home!

So they are there for a reason. Green horse. New horse/rider combination. Horse or rider training issue that needs to be addressed inexpensively and perhaps outside of the line of vision of prospective buyers or judges who might remember the issue at a critical moment. Finances. Horse or rider easing down the levels for any number of reasons. All of these are legitimate factors that are appropriately addressed at a local venue.

findeight

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:11 PM

... "some people are now showing very expensive "A" hunters at the 4H shows, and it's just not right".
I have also witnessed some of these "local" trainers that do well at the 4H shows... tell clients the only reason the "A" horse won is because he costs more $$$. (But I guess that's topic for another thread).

Yeah, well... DUH... better horses cost more money and Hunters are judged on...the quality and movement of the horse. So, to these knotheads, it's not fair when the best horse with the best trip wins-they want to keep all the good ones out so their mediocre trainer can convice them their average kid with a lackluster horse and iffy trip is a star in the sport. Then they can brag how good they are and, after 40 years of listening to this??? I am OVER IT.

Oh, one other thing, after all these years, alot at the A's, I really only know a handful that paid what everybody seems to think they did for their horses-assuming that nice horse is just nice because it cost more is insulting to those who put all the time and training that went into it. Even if it was a bit more initially, most did NOT PAY 6 figures for their A horse.

showmom858

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:19 PM

My DD rides in SoCal where we have a very competitive local circuit as well as the A shows. In the past DD had a pony that she competed mostly on the local circuit and dabbled in the A's. Almost all of the girls at our barn whether they did mostly A's or the locals loved going to the year end show in the fall as it is really a lot of fun. This year the local circuit has decided you are not allowed to compete at the year end show unless you have competed in more local shows than A shows.

So here is our dilemma now. DD (15 years old) has a new horse that she is competing at the AA's in the childrens hunters, eq, 3' and 3'3" medals working to move up to 3'6" next season. She is placing well at the AA's in good company, but is by no means winning consistantly yet in any of the disciplines. She would like to compete at the year end show because all of her friends will be there. She is qualified for her age group eq locally as well as modified jr hunters (3' local). She already said she would not compete in any of the local medals because they only go up to 3' and she is competing in 3'3" medals and thinks it would not be fair. They also have a 3' open eq challenge she would like to compete in.

But if DD wants to go to this year end show then I have to take her to more local shows than the AA's she has done which is probably not going to happen because of cost. I believe that our local circuit had pressure put on them by members who felt too many AA riders were coming in and qualifying for divisions, then coming to the year end show and winning. My DD always has liked that the local circuit had such good competition to compare herself too. I guess everyone has a different view of this.

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:28 PM

Well child, I've been hearing the exact same complaint since I started over 40 years ago. Not a thing new there.

Interesting. I've been showing since the '70's and never heard a word about this.
And I used to work in h/j show offices at a local level for many years. And I've been covering horse shows for the past 6.
So it came as a surprise when the I heard the complaints a few months ago. My first thought was "Who would do that ?"

BTW, for the sake of this discussion, the complaints have come from exhibitors/trainer/parents at local and backyard shows.

The people who have talked to me about this have all said it's about fair play and showing at your skill level. No parent mentioned that their kids weren't winning, and that's why they bring this up..so their kids will win classes. On the contrary, the parents understand that showing is about winning AND losing, and their kids are ok with that.

But the reality is that backyard, or some local show, exhibitors simply cannot be competitive against "A" show riders/horses.

Quin

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:33 PM

I'll chime in too.

I am an adult who has only ever done local shows. If a good A rider can show against me, they'll beat me. Heck, on a normal day that 8 year old with the rubber boots and the aged school pony is going to beat me.

And I'm OK with that.

I'm in the group that says more competition is good, and more attendance at the local shows is good for the sport, the local circuit, and the host barn. If your local association is havng these A barns show up, fix your class rules for next year so that there are some restricted classes at 2' to 2'6" for the local lesson riders, and also so that there are classes that will be attractive to those A barns. Don't discourage them; ask them what will bring them back and pull in others too!

I'm actually surprised that we are not seeing much of this cross-over in our area yet. I'd expected the local shows to get bigger this summer because of the costs, but by and large they have not. For the sake of the local circuit I'd love to see more riders/barns come in. And for the sake of my own ego, I'd much rather be beaten by some A circuit rider than that kid on the scruffy old schoolie............. ;)

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:44 PM

What responsibility (if any) do trainers have to keep their experienced riders/horses out of the small shows ? Does good sportsmanship have a role ?

Also: if a big fish wins a class in a small pond, where is the quality of competition for them ?

This weekend I just competed in a local 2'9" medal. I'm 38, I rode as a kid (but had never jumped much more than 2'). I've been back riding as an adult for about 8 years, with two off for rider and horse injury.

This local show is struggling right now. The medal had me and two other girls, young teens riding. I watched them warm-up and knew that if I rode decently I could easily win. My course wasn't perfect (missed landing a lead on a horse that doesn't have lead changes) but it was fairly nice...and better than both of their's. I was happy to take home the blue, but that's not what I'm proud of because the competition just wasn't there. What I'm pround of is that I had a nice course, good distances all around, nice turns, landed 11 out of 12 leads (that's good on this horse), answered the horsemanship question with no problem, etc. I suppose some people would think that I was sandbagging. I wasn't.

I've been jumping 2'9" for about a year, in once a week lessons. I've jumped an occasional 3' or 3'3" jump, but I've never done a full course. 2"9" is the highest I have EVER shown in my life. This is the class that I'm eligible to ride in.

I will tell you that I felt bad when the judge asked the horsmanship question as I had the distinct advantage of years for that one. But that wasn't my fault. I would've welcomed a much harder question for me exclusively to level the field in that case. But I still had to go in and ride my course just like them. And I could've totally blown it (as I'm getting older, I'm starting to forget courses...I could hardly figure out the order of the jumps for the test when the judge told them to me...and I had already watched both the other riders do it. :eek: :lol:)

Anyway, the point is if you are eligible for the classes you are in, ride in them. A lot of times there will be people better than you or worse than you. Ride for you and your horse and it won't matter if the A barn shows up and kicks your butt...and it may just bring your game up a notch or two.

Janet

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:45 PM

Excluding the better riders and horses (by whatever criteria) MAKES IT an "unlevel playing field".

2bayboys

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:53 PM

Interesting. I've been showing since the '70's and never heard a word about this.
And I used to work in h/j show offices at a local level for many years. And I've been covering horse shows for the past 6.
So it came as a surprise when the I heard the complaints a few months ago. My first thought was "Who would do that ?"

BTW, for the sake of this discussion, the complaints have come from exhibitors/trainer/parents at local and backyard shows.

The people who have talked to me about this have all said it's about fair play and showing at your skill level. No parent mentioned that their kids weren't winning, and that's why they bring this up..so their kids will win classes. On the contrary, the parents understand that showing is about winning AND losing, and their kids are ok with that.

But the reality is that backyard, or some local show, exhibitors simply cannot be competitive against "A" show riders/horses.

OP, what is your suggestion? That A level riders/horses should be excluded? That the prizelist should read "please don't come if you or your horse competed at a rated show within the last X years"? What about those people who now cannot afford to show at A shows, or maybe not as many, should they sell that horse and get one that is of lesser quality? (If the rider is that good, they are still going to nail the distances and put in a polished ride and turnout, so they still might win!)

You've explained the issue and it seems the responses are all in favor of keeping the local shows open to all, with variations on division specs as a possible solution. The reality is that there will always be someone who is better, richer, more talented.

Trixie

Aug. 11, 2009, 01:56 PM

I've been hearing similar complaints for years, too. And it IS tiresome.

And it never seems to be "I need to step it up so that I can be competitive." In fact, it always seems to be phrased as a complaint about somebody else.

But the reality is that backyard, or some local show, exhibitors simply cannot be competitive against "A" show riders/horses.

If you want to perpetuate that kind of thinking, fine. But that's not the case. They'll absolutely be competitive if they PUT IN THE WORK and learn to outride the "A" competitors.

Perpetuating the mindset that they'll never outride the "A" show riders/horses is basically setting them up for failure.

findeight

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:04 PM

OP, I used to hear this same thing at LACHSEA and ETI shows along with private riding club shows in your very area...and since the late 60's.

And if the parents are not complaining because the kid does not win against higher quality competition...what is it they want? Why even mention the higher quality horses are there unless they want them excluded which would allow their kid to do better?

Like I said, add a few more maiden classes that really are for Maidens, as in no blues anywhere. And a few Novice classes with XXX number of blues anywhere. But don't try to restrict regular age group Eq or the Hunters to those who are not so good-as Janet says, that is just another unlevel playing field to create a desired result.

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:12 PM

You know, the local level horse may never be competitive against an really nice A hunter, but many could be, with the right ride and right training. I've seen PLENTY of nice horses on the local circuits I ride (one of which does have a lot of A crossover). I guess I'm just surprised that people would even want to protect their chances at "success" instead of trying to up their game. That is poor sportsmanship, if you ask me.

I welcome anyone who wants to come to the schooling shows I run (which can accurately be described as backyard). I have class rules that hopefully protect from too much sandbagging...all division rules are written as horse/rider combinations so the green horses can go in a X-rails with the a pro and the seasoned 3'6" packer who is now serving the world as a schoolie can be ridden by the greenest of riders in the same class, but a 3'6" rider on her 3'6" eq horse can't compete in the 2'6" mini-medal). I also have an hors concours option ON THE ENTRY FORM, so anyone can opt to school rather than compete. We get people doing their very first show to pro's schooling young horses. I've never heard a complaint about the diverse participants yet.

Madison

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:15 PM

If the riders were showing in inappropriate classes, then maybe you could understand the local riders being disappointed, but otherwise shows are open to all entries and there shouldn't be any room to complain. When my horse was green and I was in more of a local program, I liked measuring our progress against pros on green horses or horses and riders that more commonly did the A's. In fact I still remember one show where some A/A hunter riders came to a local for practice and we were all in a division that offered both a 2'6" and a 2'9" fence height - I was working to move up to the 3' A/A's, so I wanted the 2'9" and the gate crew preferred to be lazy. The two A show riders loudly commented "we don't really care, we do the A's anyway". Needless to say, I thoroughly enjoyed beating them, particularly when they who "didn't really care" were standing at the gate anxiously awaiting the results and to pick up their ribbons, only to find they'd been beaten across the board :lol:

When I started out showing, our local shows were more of a stepping stone to the A shows with some very nice horses getting their start there. Now, as JSalem mentioned, the standards seem to have dropped off quite a bit, which is a shame because a good local show circuit was a nice thing to have and certainly a big cost savings. In this economy, it shouldn't surprise anyone that people are choosing to stay home and show locally rather than spending money on some of the A shows they used to go to. Nor should anyone be heard to complain that it is "unfair" for those riders to be there -- they have every right to be there.

Madison

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:17 PM

I guess I'm just surprised that people would even want to protect their chances at "success" instead of trying to up their game.

Well said. It is absolutely the wrong goal when that is the case.

Giddy-up

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:17 PM

This year the local circuit has decided you are not allowed to compete at the year end show unless you have competed in more local shows than A shows.

Now that is a shame. The local circuit is restricting their entries probably cause some of the "locals" threw a fit & forced the association to make up new rules to accomodate their riders. Too bad the association caved in to their demands.

BTW, for the sake of this discussion, the complaints have come from exhibitors/trainer/parents at local and backyard shows.

To be quite honest--99% of the complaining I hear about "____ spent $$$ on their horse" or "it's not fair cause I am poor" & those types of complaints comes at the local show level. I do not notice at the rated shows people b---ing about that stuff. Maybe it's just more expected that people at those levels have more money & if you chose to show there you accept it? Yes, they complain too--but I notice it's more about the poor footing, the poor stabling, poor course design, the poor judging overall (not just 1 trip being overlooked), etc... & not so much what others have or don't have.

But the reality is that backyard, or some local show, exhibitors simply cannot be competitive against "A" show riders/horses.

Very true. But that's the reality you choose if you want to go horse show. Nobody is making you show. And nobody is making you show in the hunters where the quality of the horse IS what's judged. And what about the riders with A quality horses that stay local or horses that did show the A circuit previously with former owners, but these riders never showed the A's--are they not allowed at the local shows?

The circuit shifting is nothing new. I noticed it over a year ago. Fewer people went to warm winter circuits which meant the indoor series had different faces (if they showed at all). People who previously traveled in the summer stayed home now so the local A shows had different faces. People that did local A's dropped down to the local unrated circuit. The local unrated circuit dropped down to even lower circuits or 1 day schooling shows.

showmom858

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:40 PM

Giddy-up - this is definitely a sore spot for me this year as I try to balance finances and budgets with what DD would like to do with her horse who is turning out to be such a great boy! DD wants to compete him at the AA's, which means more dollars so she has to choose fewer shows, which she understands. But like I mentioned before she would love to go to the local year end show since it is a week of fun spent with her barn friends and she has qualified in some of the divisions when she attended her first show with the new horse.

Here is exactly what is printed in the show specifications for our local organization this year:

CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW: Riders must have competed in more GSDHJA county shows than ÒA” circuit shows, during the course of the season, in order to be eligible to compete at the Championship Show.

I agree with those that said instead of the local competition rising up to the challenge of competing against the A horses, they are instead trying to dumb it down.

Janet

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:43 PM

Personally, I would be THRILLED if there were more 3' and 3'3" riders competing at the VHSA shows.

EAY

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:49 PM

Let me present another side to this argument. A local trainer who showed her horse in the A/Os at the As (let's ignore the fact that she's a shammy) with quite a bit of success, even qualifying for indoors, now takes him to a local show series where she shows in multiple divisions from 2'3 to 3'. She doesn't win every class, but she's usually champion and wins the year-end high point awards in multiple divisions. Now this is not a back-yard type local show but a quality series that offers nice prizes and attracts a fairly decent level of competition.

I can understand that her horse probably needed to move down from the 3'6 as he does have a few miles on him but neither she nor him need to show at this level because of a lack of confidence. She still does show some in the A/As but does fewer A shows because of the cost.

I don't go to this series so I have no personal stake in the matter, but it does seem a little questionable for someone to take their seasoned A show hunter to a local series and sweep multiple divisions. I'm sure it's great for the other riders, trainers, and parents there to see a quality round but at the same time they probably would like a better shot at some of those nice prizes.

I'm not exactly sure myself whether or not this is fair or poor sportsmanship, but it is something that I questioned when I saw it, and I don't think I would feel comfortable in that situation. She also has some younger horses that she
shows at the series, which is more understandable.

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 02:59 PM

GSDHJA county shows

I was wondering if that was the association you were referring to. While I haven't been to one of their shows, they seem to be a pretty high level on the whole. I don't understand why they would institute a rule like that.

(on a side note: I just bought a horse that competed GSDHJA, got a year end award in '07, but didn't show much last year)

MistyBlue

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:00 PM

Maybe I'm just being thick here, but *why* can't local show riders and horses compete against rated show riders and horses? :confused:
That's like saying any trainer with all local show students is inept and can't advance either horses or riders. And that all the students just aren't capable of improvement.
I've known tons of local show riders that ride beautifully and were very talented and had the trainers that could keep them polished and ready for anything. Riding local shows only shouldn't mean that the riders aren't goood enough for rated shows. ALL trainers should be teaching their students to ride properly, no matter where the student is going to show. Many times a rider is showing locals due to finances. Not because they weren't good enough to ride well.
Wouldn't barring competition from local shows only make it easier for not-so-talented trainers to keep their students down at their own level?
As for parents complaining...if there aren't at least 6 'A' riders in each division then those riders aren't ruining the child's chances for a ribbon.
And as for the horses...a local unrated show circuit (as opposed to the fun small barn shows/backyard shows, etc) should have hunter type breeds in the hunter classes in order to be competitive.
It's just riders from a rated circuit coming in, it's not like the Olympic team came in and took everyone's ribbons away. Rated doesn't always = Best On The Planet. Rated usually means more finances and travelling abilities to show.

Janet

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:09 PM

equitationlane

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:10 PM

Trixie

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:13 PM

Personally, I would be THRILLED if there were more 3' and 3'3" riders competing at the VHSA shows.

Completely agree. I've been to multiple shows where I've waited all day long for a 3' division to go only to find out that it won't fill.

One local show in particular has rectified that with a 3'-3'6" option earlier in the day. I've found that FAR more 3' riders have been attending but no one else has done 3'6" with me yet this year. Sometimes I've been able to talk other shows into offering a 3' option in what's ordinarily a 2'6" division if no one else will play.

However, I'm just grateful for the opportunity to try my horse over the larger fences and as for an even playing field, I've got to get around BETTER than everyone else over larger jumps if I want to win. Which doesn't always happen.

I would probably be able to afford MAYBE 2-3 "A" rated shows per year with what I presently spend showing locally. And likely blow it, because showing more regularly helps me build confidence up and find solutions that work for me.

She doesn't win every class, but she's usually champion and wins the year-end high point awards in multiple divisions. Now this is not a back-yard type local show but a quality series that offers nice prizes and attracts a fairly decent level of competition.

I can understand that her horse probably needed to move down from the 3'6 as he does have a few miles on him but neither she nor him need to show at this level because of a lack of confidence. She still does show some in the A/As but does fewer A shows because of the cost.

I really don't understand the problem here or see it as "the other side" of the arguement, except that she's a shammy. She's being beaten some and doesn't have the money to compete regularly at "A" shows. What exactly do you suggest this person do?

2bayboys

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:15 PM

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:23 PM

It IS a local county circuit, and people that do the "A" shows are really encouraged to compete at all of our shows.
<snip>
What about the kids and the less than stelar ammys that go to the county shows week after week, then get kicked in the face at our BIG SHOW OF THE YEAR

I just looked at your calendar. There are shows almost every weekend. :eek: I would guess it shouldn't be a fluke that someone ends up year end champion. If they can be beat out in a handful of shows by someone from the As, then they need to up their game. (and yes, I would be one of those ammies likely to get creamed).

How do you determine a 'majority' of your association shows? Do you ask for receipts from the A shows they've gone to? What if they only compete in two shows that year, one A, one GSDHJA but they still clean up? Is that fair?

The rule seems exclusionary and hard to enforce.

rwfarm

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:28 PM

In this economy shows should be glad to get entries. We do both local and A shows. SOme of the local people do not "turn out" as well as they should and hopefully notice the difference in the grooming etc. If the local shows turn away the A people then the A shows should turn away the lesser qualified. In our area we have some that should stay local but try to go to the rated shows and cause problems.

80s rider

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:44 PM

I think the underlying issue is with the local trainers. Some barns do very well, but when the "A" competition comes along-they don't do as well. These trainers will not admit to themselves, their students or the parents when it's time for the kids to advance to a higher level instructor. They want to continue to collect Championships at the locals, keep clients $$ and they bad mouth the "A" riders & trainers to the students & parents.
What your hearing at the local shows regarding the complaining about the "A" riders, shows the ignorance of some people. You never see the local trainers encourage their students to watch the "A" riders and learn. If they do-you'll hear them saying "anyone can ride well on a 40K horse".
Then once a students does decide to advance and move trainers- you'll hear "She stole my best rider". "I know you students would never do that to me, your loyal". You never hear local trainers telling students, "Your about ready to move up and we need to go talk with some of the high level barns, to see which one fits you best".

EAY

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:47 PM

I really don't understand the problem here or see it as "the other side" of the arguement, except that she's a shammy. She's being beaten some and doesn't have the money to compete regularly at "A" shows. What exactly do you suggest this person do?

I'm not saying that I have an answer or even that I think what she's doing is wrong. I just thought it could be an example of what the OP's talking about and I could see how some of the people doing this series might find it not quite right. It's not as if she's only doing the 3' divisions but is competing in every open hunter division between 2'3 and 3' (about six divisions over the course of a weekend), and though she doesn't win every class she's usually champion in every division and gets multiple year-end awards.

Giddy-up

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:48 PM

I really disagree with the "dumbing down" of the Championship show. It IS a local county circuit, and people that do the "A" shows are really encouraged to compete at all of our shows. The problem is having a person attend all "A" shows all year long, qualify at one county show and then do the Championship Show. What about the kids and the less than stelar ammys that go to the county shows week after week, then get kicked in the face at our BIG SHOW OF THE YEAR by a "ringer" that just comes to collect the jackets and saddle pads.

Note, also, that the Championship Show is DOUBLE POINTS and that can really make a difference for the year end awards. You could lose a CRUISE! What year end "A" circuit gives prizes like that?

I have no dog in this fight, but just cause you "go to shows week after week" doesn't mean you should automatically be the winner at the end of the year. Most shows attended doesn't mean you are the best. Just cause some choose to point chase & attend 20 county shows (for example), why do those that say attend 3 county shows & 5 A shows get punished by not being allowed at the Finals?? That makes no sense to me.

And showmom858--got an adult eq horse I could borrow? The prizes might be worth flying out & seeing if I can qualify for this Finals show. :winkgrin:

Trixie

Aug. 11, 2009, 03:52 PM

I'm not saying that I have an answer or even that I think what she's doing is wrong. I just thought it could be an example of what the OP's talking about and I could see how some of the people doing this series might find it not quite right. It's not as if she's only doing the 3' divisions but is competing in every open hunter division between 2'3 and 3' (about six divisions over the course of a weekend), and though she doesn't win every class she's usually champion in every division and gets multiple year-end awards.

The only thing I'd find NQR about that would be doing 6 divisions in a weekend.

Otherwise - they're OPEN divisions.

I've only ever met one rider who insisted on cherry picking from the 2'6"s-4' or so divisions by doing all of them in one day, and frankly, she wound up being disrespected because she was overusing her poor tired horse AND riding in the amateur divisions while accepting training $. So now, as she's starting her actual training business, she has far fewer clients because she acted unethically in the past. In the end, it evens out.

LookinSouth

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:14 PM

I have no dog in this fight, but just cause you "go to shows week after week" doesn't mean you should automatically be the winner at the end of the year. Most shows attended doesn't mean you are the best. Just cause some choose to point chase & attend 20 county shows (for example), why do those that say attend 3 county shows & 5 A shows get punished by not being allowed at the Finals?? That makes no sense to me.

I agree. And quite frankly I think the point chasing is far more annoying than someone that shows up at the finals and kicks butt. With the point system many times the people that win end of the year prizes or qualify for finals etc...are not the best riders/horses, they simply attended the MOST shows. How is that any more fair than the A rider that just shows up for the finals and puts in the best ride?

IMO, if you don't like the competition go elsewhere. There are enough sandboxes around (at least in my area) that people should be able to find at least one circuit where they can be satisfied.

In my area alot of local backyard type riders go to all the Country fairs. There is one country fair that is bigger and more competitive then the others because alot of the local show barns attend as it is a FUN 3 day horse show at a big fair. Some people that do the other country fairs won't go to that show for that very reason, they know they can't win. Seems ridiculous if you ask me. Why even bother competing?

showmom858

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:20 PM

Giddy-up - we could find you an adult eq horse to borrow, come on out!

I sent a PM to equitationlane about my complaint with this change in the rules.

For what it's worth my DD is not a point chaser and never won the year end award for any divisions in all of her years showing on the local circuit. She only had it together enough once on her bratty pony to win a jacket at the Champ show and she still wears it proudly to this day (she lived in it for 2 weeks at Pebble Beach!). Now that DD has a nice horse and has become a much better rider herself she wants the challenge and the difficult competition at the A's, but she would also like to just go one more time with this new horse of hers to the Champ show. She is certainly not going to take the points away from someone showing every weekend, but she may actually have a chance once again at winning a jacket! In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this.

danceronice

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:27 PM

As long as they aren't sandbagging in inappropriate classes, I don't see it as a problem. Now, if they do reasonably well at 3'6" at the A shows and show up to the Pine Hollow Open Show and Gymkhana and enter everything from walk-trot up to 4' jumpers, then there need to be some rules revisions to prevent them from being able to to do that, whether the person point-chasing is an A-circuit rider or whether they're just the big fish in the little local pond. While it's hard to deny that yes, the person with lots of money has a big advantage because they're a prettier picture and that always helps, there are sandbaggers who never set foot on an A-show grounds.

There's nothing "sporting" or setting a good example about picking easy targets. If I'm in the level I should be, and someone who's at that same level beats me, that's the breaks. If it's someone who routinely succeeds at a higher level and drops down and beats me, no, damn right I'm not going to be all "Well, at least I got to watch someone better than me." I'm going to think they're a jerk who just wants a blue ribbon, no matter how they get it. *I* want a blue ribbon but I'm not going to go compete in walk-trot to get it. I want to beat my equals, not pick on people with less experience or ability. Winning by sandbagging is as pointless as winning an uncontested event. Possibly more--if there's no one in my age or skill level at dance, I go uncontested. It's rather silly that I get a ribbon or a sticker or whatever for it, but better that than dropping down and picking on prebronze or newcomer.

amylmac

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:55 PM

equitationlane

Aug. 11, 2009, 04:58 PM

I just talked to the secretary to make sure my answer was correct. There was a news letter sent out in January informing everyone of the new qualifying rule for the Championship Show. I was pretty sure this was right, but, before I stuck my neck out to have it chopped off again, I wanted verify.

As this is now August and still LOTS more show in the county, there is still plenty of time to qualify, even if you just go to Sweetwater and do a flat class. It is your turn to decide if you want to go to the Championship Show badly enough to put in the effort to qualify.

I would write more, but it is pointless to rehash the issue right now.

Ponyaddict

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:09 PM

Since it seems like we'r talking the GSDHJA circuit - here's my brief 2 cents.

One of the main problems is that the association has grown beyond a one sheet specification list and needs actual rules and someone (show stewards) to enforce them. I have volunteered and am in work on a draft rule book - any assistance, proofreading, etc. is welcome!

Here's the rub/perspective from a trainer who grew up on the "A" circuit but now has kids showing on this circuit - and I know I have to watch what I say since it is a small world... :D

Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with ShowMom's kid coming in and doing the bigger hunter classes (modified?) or the open eq if that's what she qualified in. I think it shows great integrity that your daughter does not want to do the 3' medal (the highest for our association) if she is showing in and competitive at a higher level on the "A" circuit. However, that integrity is not the norm. You can look in your own barn at an example of that from last year (deleted the details).

Then there's the kid in another barn who has a few really nice ponies that also do the "A" circuit - but she's showing in the pony hunters on the County circuit, in my mind just kicking it up a notch. Yes, she wins a lot - but not always, everyone misses now and then - and honestly it's kind of a thrill for the local kids to beat the "A" ponies sometimes.

As many have already said, the hard feelings are coming from the kids showing in divisions/classes they shouldn't be in. It's the few that come to the year end show just to clean up in classes that if they took a good look in the mirror, they know they shouldn't be in - but bragging about how many championship jackets you walked away with seems to take precedence over good sportmanship and honest competition.

Ok - I was wrong, I wasn't brief :eek:

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:09 PM

As this is now August and still LOTS more show in the county, there is still plenty of time to qualify, even if you just go to Sweetwater and do a flat class. It is your turn to decide if you want to go to the Championship Show badly enough to put in the effort to qualify.

I would write more, but it is pointless to rehash the issue right now.

How is that logical? You can go do one class just so you can put a check mark in the As vs. local tally box? It doesn't stop the A people from gobbling up all the prizes. It just means the local shows gets a few more bucks in fees.

I want to beat my equals

I'd personally prefer to beat my betters. :yes: It means more.

Just like when my peers say I ride well, or some such. That's all well and good, but it pales in comparison to the compliment I received from Greg Best (there were plenty of criticisms too...)

Ponyaddict

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:21 PM

... love your post - it's not logical and this is where the frustration comes in.

Is it really so important to get that Championship jacket (for those from elsewhere - it is a Land's End type jacket with GSDHJA Champion embriodered on the back) that you drag your horse to a few shows to go in a flat class just to get the check in the block? If you want to compete here - then compete. If you are just getting the check in the block so you can come sweep the year end show - then go elsewhere - that's really not supposed to be the spirit of competition is it?

Or better are the riders "working the system" by coming and catch riding a friend's horse for 1 flat class per show so they can then bring their regular mounts to the year end show. Again - not begrdging anyone the opportunity to show at this level, but if you're going to show here, then load up your horse and come show. But really, stop working the system - it's sandbagging, it's lame, it's a very small community and everyone knows who's doing it. No, it's not against the rules, but it's certainly not sportsmanlike in my mind.

Flash44

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:26 PM

As long as everyone is following the same set of rules wrt year end awards. I see a lot of sour grapes comments. May the best horse and rider win. I have no qualms showing against anyone as long as everyone is playing by the rules.

Ponyaddict

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:38 PM

Flash I agree - and it really doesn't effect year end awards much if at all.

What we have here is a year end Championship show - on a much, much smaller scale you'd compare it to qualifying for Devon or indoors. It is the 1 show of the year where most everyone braids their horses and kids are excited because they can miss school a couple of days. The coveted prizes are jackets that the kids like HorseshowMom said will wear for years. It is a major source of pride and accomplishment for them.

As long as people are showing in appropriate divisions/classes, I have no problem with any of this. But that's not what's happening and that's why the association is trying to put some regulation in place. Unfortunately I don't believe our infrastructure has caught up with our growth -- so we will have some growing pains.

RugBug

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:39 PM

... love your post - it's not logical and this is where the frustration comes in.

But the RULE isn't logical and I'm not sure it's accomplishing what you want it to if you can easily get around it.

The problem is, you can't legislate sportsmanship and trying to only hurts the people who are already good sports, as showmom's daughter sounds to be.

I don't have a dog in the fight...I live 5 hours away and don't show that association. I have seen a jacket and it's very nice. Would love ONE if I was down there and riding for that association. But I'd also accept it if I couldn't win one...even if it was due to poor sportsmanship.

But not every A show rider that competes in the locals is doing so because they want to sandbag or win up all the prizes. The reasons for doing both types are endless...and unknown to outsiders and sometimes even fellow barnmates. Sometimes it's as simple as loving a particular show and wanting to be amongst friends. Isn't that what any show manager, from As to backyard schooling shows like mine, wants: the fun, go-to event?

As long as people are following the rules (logical ones, not ones that are trying to be exclusive) they should be allowed to compete. If they aren't following the rules, get 'em for that.

2bayboys

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:47 PM

The issue: "A" show riders/horses are moving down the levels and competing (not schooling)
at small, non USEF rated county shows.
CON:Trainers who regularly go to the small shows say they want their riders to show against riders of similar skill and on a level playing field as they gain show experience. Their clients (and horse show parents) aren't happy;some trainers are not returning to those shows, and going elsewhere.

Opinions, please. Thanks.

Seems like the trainers are solving their own problem by doing what everybody does, shopping around for the product that best suits their needs. Shows will either adapt by offering more restricted divisions and enticing the trainers back, or the shows will march on with a different clientele and adapt to meet their needs.

I guess I'm still not really "getting" the issue.

Ponyaddict

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:50 PM

Ok - you're right, I guess I meant the frustration for everyone. Like I said, my main frustration is the lack of a good rulebook and enforcement. So, I'm working on that.

My kids don't yet show in the divisions really effected by this new "rule", so my dog in that particular fight is limited. But you're right, you can't regulate sportsmanship - doesn't mean I can't be frustrated by the lack of it sometimes.

And as someone else mentioned - the # county shows vs. A shows really isn't enforceable - who's counting?

Vandy

Aug. 11, 2009, 05:59 PM

The people who have talked to me about this have all said it's about fair play and showing at your skill level.See, to me, assuming that you are not showing in divisions for which you are ineligible, "showing at your skill level" means that the jump height is appropriate for the horse/rider and the courses are basically equivalent to what the horse/rider would be showing in at an A rated show. It doesn't matter how good or bad the other riders or horses in the class are - if A circuit competitors show up because you have good footing, good courses, and good judging, more power to you and your local organization for doing things right!

When my kids go to unrated shows, they are going for the experience, and it's generally because doing more rated shows instead is out of their budgets. No matter how competitive they are in a 3' division at the rateds, I don't think it's inappropriate to compete locally in a 3' division, provided that division isn't restricted to number of wins/green horses/etc. I am THRILLED when A show level competitors come to our local schooling shows because it gives my kids who never show rated a chance to see what the riders and horses are like at the next level, and what they should aspire to in terms of riding. And IMO it also brings an increased sense of legitimacy to our local scene.

I have unrestricted crossrail and 2'6" divisions at my schooling shows. It might be nice to have separate classes at the same height for school horses or green horses ridden by professionals or whatever, but for a one-day show where the crossrails already take hours, it's just impractical, and no one is going to trailer in to show in one class. In the equitation classes, professionals must show Hors Concours, but in the hunter classes they are invited to ride a judged round just like everyone else. For the most part, people who regularly show at a higher level have been tactful enough to skip these divisions or show in these divisions unjudged unless they are riding a green horse. The one time a successful junior showed up and decided to do the crossrail eq on her nice 3'6" A show horse? I thought it was pretty inappropriate and tacky, but it wasn't against my rules so we let her do it...and surprise, surprise, she got beaten by one of my adult lesson students on a school horse who had a better trip :lol: It was pretty exciting for my adult rider and no doubt humbling for the junior who was showing below her skill level.

showmom858

Aug. 11, 2009, 06:19 PM

Ponyaddict - I'm glad to hear that you are working on the rulebook because as has been said before this association has grown very large even in the 7 years my girls have competed in it and I think they need to have good written rules that everyone understands and enforcement of those rules.

RugBug - this is a show that my DD has very fond memories of and her reasons for wanting to compete are just to be with her friends and to have fun. She would only show in hunters, open eq (age group) and the open equitation challenge. She is qualified for all of these classes because she attended a show a few months after getting her horse. She really wanted to ride in the open eq challenge (3') this year as this is the first time she has really been ready to do that. The class usually has 50 or more entries and is an open class so it has amatuers and pros.

Again, in this economy we are all trying to maximize our show budgets if we don't have unlimited resources (which we don't!). I don't believe excluding anyone from horseshows that wants to pay their money is a good idea.

superpony123

Aug. 11, 2009, 06:35 PM

What's wrong with that? I don't see anything wrong. It's not like A show riders are shunned from schooling shows. They're called schooling shows for a reason. I want to get some more practice in at a show before going to the big shows. I never do A shows in the winter: way too freakin' cold for me to wait around all day. I want to get in and get out. I go to a local show series during the winter and that's it. it's very close by. I don't have to drive hours away to find out i have to wait three more hrs in the freezing cold before my class starts.

Frankly, beginner riders at A shows and beginner riders at schooling shows are still beginner riders. Yeah, the ones who go to A shows might own a horse instead of ride a lesson horse, but they're still beginners. Children's hunters at A shows and schooling shows are doing the same level. It's not about ribbons. You go in a certain division because that's the level of competition you're comfortable with. Times are tough, and some of us can't afford to go to A shows as frequently as we may have used to.

Peggy

Aug. 11, 2009, 07:33 PM

Would rather have them at the locals than not. And definitely not a new issue. Remember people complaining when some of the local "A" barns started showing up at our Malibu ETI shows (this was late 60's and early 70's for reference). The show manager (that would be my mom) was happy to have them, there weren't nearly as many shows back then (so the "A" barns had fewer options), and it was nice to have more competition at the shows that I could afford to do. A good ribbon in the junior hunters riding against kids that did the A's was an accomplishment.

A number of years later another ETI group had an issue with a kid or two who really should have moved on (at least to a different division--doing the age group instead of the ponies) and some board members wanted to write a rule whose sole purpose was to keep those one or two away. Sanity did finally win out and as one person said "you really shouldn't write a rule for one person." A few years later I managed some shows for this group and made a point of letting some of the advanced riders that had been discouraged from attending the previous few years know that they were welcome. Some came, they showed in the 3' division (which allowed us to run the dang thing with enuf entries to make things interesting) and I think most people were fairly happy.

I've not been to the SD groups year-end show, but I know that the OC version which is same basic idea as showmom858 described--fun show, nice prizes (jackets for 1st, something like sweatshirts or halters for second, pads for third; saddle in the big flat eq class)--has seen more and more of the "A" people coming within the last few years. IMHO, it's b/c our prizes are better:D. Did I love the fact that the top two placers in my flat eq class were standing first and second in PCHA points one year? No, but "you really shouldn't write a rule for one person. Someone did come in a few years ago without having attended even one of the qualifying shows and showed in the assortment of classes for which you don't have to qualify. This included the class with a CWD saddle as the prize, and she won it. There was enuf griping that, for the next year, the class specs said you had to attend at least three of the qualifying shows during the year to ride in that class. Which is fair, esp considering that many of the A-rated shows in OC are dual rated with the county association.

Renn/aissance

Aug. 11, 2009, 08:46 PM

But if DD wants to go to this year end show then I have to take her to more local shows than the AA's she has done which is probably not going to happen because of cost. I believe that our local circuit had pressure put on them by members who felt too many AA riders were coming in and qualifying for divisions, then coming to the year end show and winning

It is interesting that you bring this point up because our local circuit does not have a problem with this behavior per se, at least not in the sense that this situation has inspired new rules as it has with your circuit, but this has inspired muttering. Guys, if you have never shown on a local circuit ALL YEAR and done the A's instead, don't come to the year-end benefit or final show just to win the division trophies. Not cool, not sportsmanlike, not really making friends and influencing people. And yes, I know people who will tell you to your face that that's why they're there. If someone is doing both circuits, has qualified for the year-end show legitimately? I don't care if they've done 2 local shows or 42, they qualified, let them in. But it sounds like your local circuit is trying to boost its own coffers by discouraging people who would otherwise not show as much locally.

As regards the people whose horses "aren't good enough for the A's, that's why we ride locally", I rode locally (and in the Maiden/Novice classes at A shows) on a leased 2'6" school horse. We did the equitation classes. Not because he was a stellar equitation horse--because he had this lovely habit of displaying textbook poor jumping form and I wanted to have a chance at a $1 pink ribbon if I was going to be paying for the privilege to show. :lol: We did about as well at the A level as we did at the county shows. So I have little pity for people who say they cannot be competitive at the local level if circuit riders come in, because of their horse. They can certainly be competitive if they school the horse they have and show in the equitation classes where it doesn't matter if they're riding a three-legged mule, so long as they ride it well.

On a side note, this reminds me of a VHSA Associate show held this spring. As the starter I had the pleasure of announcing Kim Severson and Tipperary Liadhnan into the ring for the highest jumper class offered that day. That horse was qualified for the Olympics and he came and competed in the most appropriate division for him. The people who showed against that pair thought it was really cool that she was there. The girl who beat her thought that her blue ribbon was REALLY cool. Some days, no matter who you are, somebody else is going to beat you. :)

danceronice

Aug. 11, 2009, 08:47 PM

See, to me, assuming that you are not showing in divisions for which you are ineligible, "showing at your skill level" means that the jump height is appropriate for the horse/rider and the courses are basically equivalent to what the horse/rider would be showing in at an A rated show. It doesn't matter how good or bad the other riders or horses in the class are - if A circuit competitors show up because you have good footing, good courses, and good judging, more power to you and your local organization for doing things right!

That makes sense to me. If I show 3', I show 3', regardless of where I show, that's fair. If I usually show 3' and decide to come in and do crossrails, maybe I'll get my comeuppance with a bad trip, but likely not.

I would LIKE to beat people who are better than me, but the odds are overwhelming that the person who shows (or dances, or skates) at a higher level is going to win. Unless they are drastically unsuccessful at the upper level and just compete there to say that they do (which always seems silly to me in dance and borderline cruel in horses.)

PonyPenny

Aug. 11, 2009, 10:27 PM

My daughter shows at both local and A rated shows. She tries to stay in the classes where the fences are at least 3' and above. She needs the practice at the higher jumps and I can't afford for her to do the A circuit much this year because of the economy. She competes in the 3'3" to 3'6" medals, the 3'6" Junior Hunters at the A shows, but is still working on being consistent at that height. Most of the local shows do not have that fence height other than jumpers and even then it is a rare show. She does not compete in these shows to take away prizes from the less experienced riders, but to practice and gain experience. She finds it hard to have the classes fill at the higher jump heights.

When I rode as a junior in the late 70's and early 80's, many top riders competed at local schooling shows as practice for the big shows or to gain mileage for a green horse. There were not that many A shows back then and they only had the rated divisions.

giddybiddy

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:05 PM

Haha my best friend beat a VERY successful equitation rider (like top placings at the maclay finals) on her new $200,000 horse at a local show. And my friend was on one of my barn's school horses! She's still proud of that to this day!

(Our school horses are very nice, I should say. But STILL!)

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:19 PM

OP, what is your suggestion?
You've explained the issue and it seems the responses are all in favor of keeping the local shows open to all, with variations on division specs as a possible solution. The reality is that there will always be someone who is better, richer, more talented.

I'm trying to stay neutral,and occasionally play devil's advocate, as some of the posts inspire more questions.

I'm definitly NOT in favor of forbidding "A" riders from competing at lower levels. Can't do that.

I AM in favor of an Academy division for h/j shows, based on the long time success of the Academy division at Saddleseat shows. Currently the Academy division isn't recognized by USEF, but they do allow an Adademy division to be held at recognized shows.

And I'm in favor of trainers stepping up and advising their "A" clients that it may not be appropriate for them to compete at a local show, where clearly the skill level is below them. That would be their sportsmanship lesson for the week.

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:24 PM

My daughter shows at both local and A rated shows... She tries to stay in the classes where the fences are at least 3' and above. She needs the practice at the higher jumps and I can't afford for her to do the A circuit much this year because of the economy. She does not compete in these shows to take away prizes from the less experienced riders, but to practice and gain experience.

When she shows at the local shows for practice and to gain experience, is she being judged, or does she designate that she's in the class for schoolling ?

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:37 PM

If you want to perpetuate that kind of thinking, fine. But that's not the case. They'll absolutely be competitive if they PUT IN THE WORK and learn to outride the "A" competitors.

Perpetuating the mindset that they'll never outride the "A" show riders/horses is basically setting them up for failure.

I'm sorry, but the horses and riders I see at the small local shows simply cannot compete
successfully against "A" riders/horses. If they could, we wouldn't be talking about this.

DancingQueen

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:46 PM

Didn't read all posts but here's my two cents on OP

Ok so I get how you if you are a parent and pay the bills want your daughter to get a piece of the action if she does well. It sucks to perform to the best of your ability and still not get a good ribbon beacuse she is competing against riders who are on nicer ponies "belong at bigger shows" etc.

There's no fixing that. Everybody is allowed to enter, it's just the way of life.

It is a great opportunity to watch better riders, ponies and horses go. It will bring up the standard and give those starting out a goal to work towards, no doubt about that.

Now if you have students who simply cannot afford to get the horse or pony that will place in that kind of competition and are afraid that they will loose interest, try to make it more about their achievement.

Granted, I am older but I never compete against anybody else. If somebody performs stellar I will perhaps set their performance as a goal of what can be done but in the end of the day it's a matter of mine and my horses performance against the course set or about me getting my horse to perform at his best. I've won hacks on a hack winner but been more happy about conning the judge into pinning me 8th on a horse that wasn't a mover at all!

Solution could perhaps be to start a personalized reward system. Get some ribbons if you wish or just achivement cards/points whatever and reward your own students along their own scale. Whoever "brought it" at the last show compared to their ability can get your own champion ribbon. If the one girl who always goes of course remembers her courses at this show, reward her at your own little ceremony. Encourage your students to take pride in a job well done no matter who else was there and how they did.

Mardi

Aug. 11, 2009, 11:52 PM

Vandy

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:11 AM

And I'm in favor of trainers stepping up and advising their "A" clients that it may not be appropriate for them to compete at a local show, where clearly the skill level is below them. That would be their sportsmanship lesson for the week.As an organizer of a local schooling show series, I don't agree with this AT ALL. When the other local barns in my area have schooling shows, I try my best to bring as many horses and riders as possible to support their shows, whether they are once-a-week school horse lesson students or A show regulars looking for some more mileage on a budget.

When the shows are at my barn, I encourage everyone to come - I still have only a handful of rated folks that show up, but am hoping that will increase because, guess what, it makes me money! And it provides a way for the better riders in the area to go somewhere, jump some different jumps, and have a fun day out with their horses and their friends without spending a fortune to do it. I always have 3'6"+ classes on the prize list so these folks aren't being encouraged to take ribbons away from little kids - sometimes these classes fill, sometimes they don't, but really, in this economy, I think supporting your local scene is really a great thing to do on a lot of levels!

dghunter

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:27 AM

I'm not sure about elsewhere but our local circuit here has a lot of A circuit riders. We also have a lot of A circuit shows that you can get points at but you can also just do the schooling/C rated stuff and still get year end awards. I find the competition is roughly the same whether it's a schooling show for our local circuit or an A show that you can get points at for our local circuit.

I will say that last year when a couple of the top barns decided not to do WEF, the competition was A LOT tougher at the winter shows :lol:

I'm guessing other local circuits are different though? I could never imagine discouraging people from attending a show I'm putting on to make money! Wouldn't you want more people to come and pay money as long as they weren't in classes way below appropriate?

HunterRider992

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:51 AM

Personally, I would be THRILLED if there were more 3' and 3'3" riders competing at the VHSA shows.

Go to the CHSA shows, usually 15ish in the Childrens and 6 or so in the A/As. And these are NICE horses, most are winners at AAs as well, especially the Adult horses.

I really appreciate growing up on that circuit because the level of competition gave me a goal to work towards. I saw what a nice trip looked like, I knew what a top level horse looked like and that inspired me to ride better.

DancingQueen

Aug. 12, 2009, 01:08 AM

#Vandy
Sure but they could go to your show with their young horses for schooling purposes and not bring their A-stock. I know you want the entries to make the show go around, but at the same time as you want the better riders to show up you would also not want them to "serve" everybody else so badly that they wouldn't want to enter the following year.

IMO if you take a proved AA horse/rider combination to a local unrated show for the sole purpose of getting ribbons you have a problem larger then what this forum can set straight.
If you go to local unrated shows because you have had to cut down on your show budget a little bit or because you feel as though this show would be a good schooling opportunity for a horse that has been resting, a kid that has been away at summer camp or perhaps to recover from a bad show last time out, then go for it!

2bayboys

Aug. 12, 2009, 08:24 AM

So now I have to justify why I am bringing my quality horse to a local show? If I'm there to get him mileage or to ease my budget, but I win everything, won't there still be some people who think I'm there just to win ribbons?

Or should I, as the OP suggests, go unjudged and that will make it OK?

You don't know the details of everyone's situation or reason for being there. There will always be some bad apples who behave in an unsportsmanlike manner at every level. It's a competition, for cryin' out loud.

Equibrit

Aug. 12, 2009, 08:27 AM

I think anybody is free to show wherever they are qualified to do so, and whining is not a very attractive vice. Up your game.

Trixie

Aug. 12, 2009, 09:07 AM

And I'm in favor of trainers stepping up and advising their "A" clients that it may not be appropriate for them to compete at a local show, where clearly the skill level is below them. That would be their sportsmanship lesson for the week.

Why exactly is it “inappropriate” if they’re riding in an open division for which they are eligible?

As far as I’m concerned, that’s not only exclusionary, but it perpetuates bad riding and bad sportsmanship. Telling people to stay out of your sandbox so you can win pretty ribbons in a small pond is equally poor sportsmanship than a rider who usually competes at larger venues entering a division in which they are absolutely eligible to compete.

I'm sorry, but the horses and riders I see at the small local shows simply cannot compete
successfully against "A" riders/horses. If they could, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Then you need to be perpetuating the attitude that they need to work HARDER and strive bigger, not telling them they’re crappy riders on crappy horses who will never measure up. Because frankly, that’s what I’m hearing.

je.suis

Aug. 12, 2009, 09:33 AM

JSalem, I totally agree that the standards would rise if upper level riders attended local small shows. By accident, I stumbled upon a small show and was disgusted with the turn out and training. You don't need A Devoucoux saddle and expensive bridle. Soap is fairly inexpensive and even the lowest cost britches and hunt coats can fit well. Also appalling was schooling in the show ring, not the schooling ring. Trainers shouting and directing on the flat as well as o/f. This doesn't go on at A shows as riders are better prepared to show. The more exposure the better for everyone.
Janet, we were in the same area although I was not a pony clubber. How funny!

Vandy

Aug. 12, 2009, 09:42 AM

#Vandy
Sure but they could go to your show with their young horses for schooling purposes and not bring their A-stock. I know you want the entries to make the show go around, but at the same time as you want the better riders to show up you would also not want them to "serve" everybody else so badly that they wouldn't want to enter the following year.
Honestly? I don't want them to enter their A show horses in the crossrail division with my school horses, but the open divisions? By all means, bring them on! I have my own handful of better riders who are competitive at the rated shows, and I don't exclude them from my schooling shows either. I just try to be conscientious and fair about which divisions my riders are allowed to enter.

I have very little patience for riders who "won't come back" because they were soundly beaten by a better horse or rider. Is winning at the local level (or any level, for that matter) so important that the experience of going to a fun show or having a nice round is less important than a 50 cent ribbon?

RockinHorse

Aug. 12, 2009, 09:49 AM

This year the local circuit has decided you are not allowed to compete at the year end show unless you have competed in more local shows than A shows.

I will preface this by saying I know nothing about this circuit...

As long as the rules are communicated up front and apply to all, I really don't see an issue with any association making whatever rules they feel works best for them (even if they don't make sense to me).

If you don't like an association's rules and/or shows, don't play there. If you do play there, you have to abide by what ever the rules are. The only recourse is to run for the board of the association and try to implement changes.

2bayboys

Aug. 12, 2009, 09:56 AM

Why exactly is it “inappropriate” if they’re riding in an open division for which they are eligible?

As far as I’m concerned, that’s not only exclusionary, but it perpetuates bad riding and bad sportsmanship. Telling people to stay out of your sandbox so you can win pretty ribbons in a small pond is equally poor sportsmanship than a rider who usually competes at larger venues entering a division in which they are absolutely eligible to compete.

Then you need to be perpetuating the attitude that they need to work HARDER and strive bigger, not telling them they’re crappy riders on crappy horses who will never measure up. Because frankly, that’s what I’m hearing.

Me too. Every sport organization I've been involved in has had as one of their reasons for being "to foster better competition" NOT "to keep the competition at this level". Striving to improve should always be a goal, otherwise what's the point?

equitationlane

Aug. 12, 2009, 10:03 AM

The original thought of this thread has gone missing with all the additional replies. The poster was upset because her daughter couldn't show in the Championship Show as she had competed in "A" shows all summer, but did go to a county show when she first got her horse.
The county shows are just that, schooling shows, with a nice show at the end of the year that the trainers put on.

At the request of several parents, some of which have children that win everything, the committee put into place, in JANUARY, a rule that said, in order to precipitate in the Championship Show, you just needed to show at more county shows than "A" shows. Given the fact that, somewhere in our very large county, there is a show almost every weekend, it shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish. For the most part the county shows are 1/4 - 1/2 the cost of an "A" show, if you can afford to go to the "A"'s, you could squeeze in a couple of county shows, even if it one day.

We all have to make choices in life and she decided that she wanted to mostly "A" shows, which is her prerogative . But look at it this way, the show managers would be thrilled if all of the "A" show people suddenly decided they wanted to qualify for the Championship Show and suddenly appeared their smaller shows!

2bayboys

Aug. 12, 2009, 10:24 AM

The issue: "A" show riders/horses are moving down the levels and competing (not schooling)
at small, non USEF rated county shows. This puts them in the ring with much less experienced riders (kids and adult amateurs).

PRO: Show managers say it improves the competition, and brings in more money.
They speculate that it's the economy; the riders come because the small, non-rated shows are less expensive.

CON:Trainers who regularly go to the small shows say they want their riders to show against riders of similar skill and on a level playing field as they gain show experience. Their clients (and horse show parents) aren't happy;some trainers are not returning to those shows, and going elsewhere.

Opinions, please. Thanks.

Ummmmm..... the original thought of this thread (posted above, opening post) was to seek opinions about A show riders competing in local shows. No mention of a specific championship show, that came later and is tangential to the OP's issue.

Renn/aissance

Aug. 12, 2009, 11:05 AM

So now I have to justify why I am bringing my quality horse to a local show? If I'm there to get him mileage or to ease my budget, but I win everything, won't there still be some people who think I'm there just to win ribbons?

You don't have to justify it to anyone. Of course someone will have a case of sour grapes and assign you an unsportsmanlike motive. Unless that's actually your motive, they can go hang themselves.

RugBug

Aug. 12, 2009, 11:50 AM

At the request of several parents, some of which have children that win everything, the committee put into place, in JANUARY, a rule that said, in order to precipitate in the Championship Show, you just needed to show at more county shows than "A" shows. Given the fact that, somewhere in our very large county, there is a show almost every weekend, it shouldn't be too difficult to accomplish.

It still surprises me that you don't see how illogical, and frankly a bit 'big brother-ish' that rule is. Who keeps track of how many A shows vs. county shows? What happens when someone trailers in for one class at 7 different shows and then cleans up at the champion show? A new rule saying you have to compete X number of classes per show and a majority of county shows?

If the competition is so weak that one person can win enough points in ONE show (sure, double points and all, but that's still only 4-5 classes per division) over someone how's been competing all year, maybe the other person deserves it more.

For the most part the county shows are 1/4 - 1/2 the cost of an "A" show, if you can afford to go to the "A"'s, you could squeeze in a couple of county shows, even if it one day.

:eek: What a HUGE assumption on your part. You know people's finances? You're at everyone's kitchen table while they are figuring out how to allocate their money? You know if they have to sacrifice to go to the As they do or if it's throw away money? The arrogance in that comment is astounding.

Kind of like the arrogance of the parents to 'protect' poopsie from someone who is better than they are. Life isn't a level playing field. There will always be someone better (smarter, richer, funnier, prettier, more charming, etc) who's going to win the jacket. Unless you figure out what you need to do be competitive with them and raise your own game, you're just going to stagnate in mediocrity.

chawley

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:00 PM

We had a similar thing happen at the barn shows this year that my trainer hosts (it's a series of 6 shows). He elected to get rated through the state hunter jumper organization in an attempt to attract some bigger barns. Well, it worked, but some of the local barns got mad and didn't come back. But, it's been okay because the larger barns are supporting the shows and bringing plenty of horses to fill the classes.

I love it. As a person that shows a few rated shows per year, it's been really nice to have comparable competition to go up against at home!

He did keep some unrated divisions for those w/ green riders and/or horses. It's actually worked out really well.

showmom858

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:22 PM

RugBug said: What a HUGE assumption on your part. You know people's finances? You're at everyone's kitchen table while they are figuring out how to allocate their money? You know if they have to sacrifice to go to the As they do or if it's throw away money? The arrogance in that comment is astounding. Thank you for saying exactly what I felt after that comment.

equitationlane- We are a regular middle class family with a DD who has a love of horses. We do not have the $$$ for DD to do the West Coast AA circuit all year. We determined our budget this year which included a trip to a big horseshow during the summer instead of a family summer vacation. I have a kid that works at the barn to offset trainer expenses and has her own pet sitting business. Sorry but I don't have the money to trailer into a bunch of your one day shows to get DD's county show count above her A show count. We have always been very supportive of the local organization, but frankly your comments do leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.

To everyone else on this thread - you all have lots of great comments and I appreciate reading how others have handled these situations. Thanks!

wyldhorseb

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:36 PM

i wouldn't exactly assume that someone with a fancier, nicer, more expensive horse will always win. my horse is just as fancy as a lot on the circuit right now, but she is freaking HARD. sometimes, a fancier, nicer, more expensive horse comes with a little more ride for your dollar.

equitationlane

Aug. 12, 2009, 12:45 PM

OK, this is my final, final reply. I made plenty of sacrifices when I was a kid, as did my parents. Heck, we were the original campers back East. We lived in the darn horse trailer, so I could afford to go to the shows. I made a decision to do that so I could attend a couple of the bigger shows. My parents weren't wealthy at all, but we had a plan at the beginning of each year as to what shows we could afford to attend.

I really don't want to get into this, but if you had wanted to go to the Championship Show, it should have been part of the plan.

Sorry to offend so many people, and I suggest you take it up with the committee. They seem to always try to listen to the exhibitors and, for the most part, have done a good job. Look at what the area was ten or fifteen years ago.

danceronice

Aug. 12, 2009, 01:15 PM

Then you need to be perpetuating the attitude that they need to work HARDER and strive bigger, not telling them they’re crappy riders on crappy horses who will never measure up. Because frankly, that’s what I’m hearing.

Or explain to them that they will never win against a $100k horse because a $1000 horse will never look like or perform like a $100,000 horse, because they MUST spend thousands on tack and clothes (god FORBID they ride at a local open show in rubber boots or paddock boots with half-chaps or a hunter-green coat or rust breeches their mom handed down and expect to do well), and that it's bad sportsmanship to complain if you go into a show situation expecting one set of standards and are judged by one from a totally different show environment instead. Explain that "strive bigger" means spend more money. Lots more money.

Because what *I* am hearing is that the lowly peons should be on their knees thanking the almighty A riders for deigning to bless their unworthy show grounds with their presence. An unrated local show might just be practice for an A/AA rider, but for people who just want to go out and compete and know they can't afford the enormous amount of resources (or take the pressure, too) of showing at the highest levels, it may be their biggest show of the year. They decided this is the level they can compete at, that their horse is suited to, and they put in the work and time. If they turn up and find out that they're right back where they didn't want to be--riding against people with infinitely more money and resources--why on Earth should they be grateful? For what? For being reminded that what's a big deal for them is just a chance to get a little exercise for those with more resources? And they're bad sports if they resent that? How dare they forget their place in this sport!

This isn't even about putting crossrails at A shows. It's about those people who might be in that crossrail class doing what the A-show crowd wanted, and going elsewhere...only that's cheaper, so the same people who didn't want them "dumbing down" *their* shows are now saying "Oh, I need to save money. Here's a nice little cheap show I can use to give Poopsie some exercise. I'm sure they'll be grateful we showed up to give the place some class."

If local, hobbyist people, who spend a lot, but not a comparable amount, on their horse, aren't welcome at the big circuit shows (unless they genuinely don't care about never going anywhere with it and will spend the money solely to say they went), but should not only tolerate A-circuit riders turning up for their local shows but should be GRATEFUL that they do, and they're poor sports and untalented, whiney sore losers if they don't like getting shut out of the ribbons that way...what exactly are they supposed to do? The impression I get is "take up trail riding and stay out of our sport".

Trixie

Aug. 12, 2009, 01:39 PM

Or explain to them that they will never win against a $100k horse because a $1000 horse will never look like or perform like a $100,000 horse, because they MUST spend thousands on tack and clothes (god FORBID they ride at a local open show in rubber boots or paddock boots with half-chaps or a hunter-green coat or rust breeches their mom handed down and expect to do well), and that it's bad sportsmanship to complain if you go into a show situation expecting one set of standards and are judged by one from a totally different show environment instead. Explain that "strive bigger" means spend more money. Lots more money.

Umno.

Having shown at Upperville in a pair of $8 breeches (used, tailored sportsmans, ebay), a $10 shirt (Middleburg Tack Exchange), off the rack boots (a few hundred) and my ubersplurge of a show coat at $119, I daresay you actually cannot argue with me that they MUST spend thousand on tack or clothes. And BTW, I was appropriately turned out for an “A” show.

I bought my $4000 French saddle on craigslist for a song. Horse shows in a 25 year old Crosby bridle purchased from Dominion years ago that was so high quality at the time that it's lasted this long and looks beautiful.

It doesn’t cost one bit more to purchase clothes that fit as opposed to clothes that don’t, and most things can be found cheaply for just a little bit of actual EFFORT.

It's also FREE to shine up your horse so they look as nice as an "A" quality horse, even if they aren't as fancy.

The horse I rode was a freebie to his owner. We did not win, but were happy to be there. My "A" show trainer gladly accepts haul ins, we haul in from our little backyard farm.

If they turn up and find out that they're right back where they didn't want to be--riding against people with infinitely more money and resources--why on Earth should they be grateful? For what? For being reminded that what's a big deal for them is just a chance to get a little exercise for those with more resources? And they're bad sports if they resent that? How dare they forget their place in this sport!

Riding is not only about resources. If it was, I would not be here. And you know what? I’m really grateful to be here.

And FWIW, I find it unbearable that people whine and complain about their “lack of resources” when they’re riding in horse shows at all. This is an expensive hobby, and we are all extremely fortunate to have the means to participate.

If local, hobbyist people, who spend a lot, but not a comparable amount, on their horse, aren't welcome at the big circuit shows (unless they genuinely don't care about never going anywhere with it and will spend the money solely to say they went), but should not only tolerate A-circuit riders turning up for their local shows but should be GRATEFUL that they do, and they're poor sports and untalented, whiney sore losers if they don't like getting shut out of the ribbons that way...what exactly are they supposed to do? The impression I get is "take up trail riding and stay out of our sport".

I absolutely think its poor sportsmanship to complain about being beaten by someone riding better than you.

I do think it’s unsportsmanlike to enter divisions that one has outgrown without cause.

I think “local, hobbyist” people have been welcomed at the “A” shows by the plethora of unrated divisions to compete in. The opportunities are there if you choose to attend or put the work in. But it's silly to refuse to conform to the standards of a sport and then whine and complain because you do badly.

Janet

Aug. 12, 2009, 01:40 PM

Because what *I* am hearing is that the lowly peons should be on their knees thanking the almighty A riders for deigning to bless their unworthy show grounds with their presence.
Hih?

WHERE are you hearing this? not in this thread.

RugBug

Aug. 12, 2009, 01:42 PM

Or explain to them that they will never win against a $100k horse because a $1000 horse will never look like or perform like a $100,000 horse because they MUST spend thousands on tack and clothes (god FORBID they ride at a local open show in rubber boots or paddock boots with half-chaps or a hunter-green coat or rust breeches their mom handed down and expect to do well), and that it's bad sportsmanship to complain if you go into a show situation expecting one set of standards and are judged by one from a totally different show environment instead. Explain that "strive bigger" means spend more money. Lots more money.

Since when is good turn out about money? It is about well fitting, clean tack and ELBOW GREASE. "A" show turn-out CAN be very inexpensive. But usually, the people that complain about the cost of stuff are the ones that don't want to do the work it takes.

Got a fugly, skinny horse with a dull coat? Learn something about nutrition and grooming. Your horse will thank you for it.

Here's my less than $5k horse (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/horse%20stuff/IMG_0004.jpg). I'm pretty sure he'd fit right in at an A show and may even be confused with the $$$$$ horses. Those dapples/white socks/oiled hooves didn't cost me much more than some elbow grease and attention to detail. ANYONE can do that....if they care to.

Sometimes he performs (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/horse%20stuff/ShowSYVEA4-15.jpg) like a $$$$ horse. Sometimes he doesn't (http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g14/slorugbug/horse%20stuff/TSummers113007021.jpg). Them's the breaks of riding.

It's really easy to make excuses and to blame others as to why you aren't successful (they have more money, they have nicer horses, they, they, they...). It's a lot harder to look at yourself and your desire/talent/ability/motivation/tenacity/effort etc and find fault. If you only want to ride at a hobby level...do so, but if someone else wants to put more into it (time, effort, and yes some money for lessons, etc), you can't blame them when they beat you. There are MANY aspects of this sport that are free or relatively inexpensive. In this day and age with the internet, it's even easier to find information on how to ride, how to groom, etc. I had to READ books and looks at Pictures. I couldn't watch videos or interact with knowledgeable horse people on a internet bulletin board. The only ones I hear complaining about prices are the ones who don't want to put the work in. Yes, some money is necessary, but you don't have to be Bill Gates.

If hobbyists (as you call them...I'm pretty sure most of us are hobbyists when it comes to riding) want their own playground, it's pretty easy to have invitation only shows. Then they can decide who shows up and limit it to only the people they want to show against.

supershorty628

Aug. 12, 2009, 02:07 PM

Rugbug, your boy is absolutely stunning!

Just adding in that a horse's price tag does not mean that said horse behaves all the time or is easy to ride, and even a school pony can have a little special side...

This pony was a school pony all the time, even while I showed him in the pony hunters. He qualified and went to Pony Finals. He's now showing a little girl the ropes in the mediums. Didn't look like anything special unbraided, but hey, even a cheap school pony can polish up and look respectable at a national final:

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v113/206/28/1357770419/n1357770419_30408805_7897.jpg
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v217/206/28/1357770419/n1357770419_30589230_7442.jpg

At home:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2431869490054933411KFVjKl

2bayboys

Aug. 12, 2009, 02:27 PM

If local, hobbyist people, who spend a lot, but not a comparable amount, on their horse, aren't welcome at the big circuit shows (unless they genuinely don't care about never going anywhere with it and will spend the money solely to say they went), but should not only tolerate A-circuit riders turning up for their local shows but should be GRATEFUL that they do, and they're poor sports and untalented, whiney sore losers if they don't like getting shut out of the ribbons that way...what exactly are they supposed to do? The impression I get is "take up trail riding and stay out of our sport".

:confused::confused::confused:

But it's the local show [trainers,riders,parents] who want to exclude the A show riders/horses from participating in the local/county shows, not the other way around! And all the rated shows I go to have tons of unrated divisions at heights 2' to 2'6", which encourages participation at ALL levels.

Sail Away

Aug. 12, 2009, 03:13 PM

:confused::confused::confused:

But it's the local show [trainers,riders,parents] who want to exclude the A show riders/horses from participating in the local/county shows, not the other way around! And all the rated shows I go to have tons of unrated divisions at heights 2' to 2'6", which encourages participation at ALL levels.

And there was a long thread here complaining about how the unrated classes were impinging on the rights (or taking the good days/times) of the "A" riders and if they couldn't jump at least 3' why are they even at the "A" shows and they should just be happy at the local shows and how it was an "earned" privilege to be at the "A" shows. They may offer the classes but according to the feedback on that other thread there were many who didn't want them there.

2bayboys

Aug. 12, 2009, 04:02 PM

Vandy

Aug. 12, 2009, 05:44 PM

RugBug

Aug. 12, 2009, 05:50 PM

Rugbug, your boy is absolutely stunning!

Thanks! I love him even though he's a bit temperamental. :yes: :lol:

SaturdayNightLive

Aug. 12, 2009, 06:03 PM

I'm going to chime in the the "you need a $$$$$$ horse to play in the A sand box" thing. I'm kind of in a unique situation right now as I own horses on both ends of the spectrum. One was $5k and one was was well...more than that. One of them qualified for junior hunter finals and carried me to several wins in both hunters and equitation, and was used as a flat horse in the 2008 Big 12 Championships. Can you guess which one it was? If you're guessing the $5k one, you're right. And while the other horse is a total rockstar in his own right, my point remains that it can be done on something cheap.

Also, when Mr. Pricey was a baby, I took him to a couple of localish schooling shows. We got beat. A lot. By schoolies. Know why? They put in better rounds.

It doesn't have to be about money. Sure, money helps, but it isn't everything. And it shouldn't have anything to do with who is allowed to compete where. Local show kids can learn to ride just as well as A show kids. The A circuit doesn't have a monopoly on talent you know. You ride against who shows up that day. If you win - great. If you don't - you live to ride another day. ;)

dogchushu

Aug. 12, 2009, 08:47 PM

And there was a long thread here complaining about how the unrated classes were impinging on the rights (or taking the good days/times) of the "A" riders and if they couldn't jump at least 3' why are they even at the "A" shows and they should just be happy at the local shows and how it was an "earned" privilege to be at the "A" shows. They may offer the classes but according to the feedback on that other thread there were many who didn't want them there.

I remember that thread. I recall those opposed felt the A shows shouldn't offer heights lower than 3' or reserve the prime days for those doing the bigger fences. I don't recall anyone being upset with the riders who go into those classes. It may be a subtle difference, but I don't think anyone would look at someone doing 2'6" at a rated show and hold it against them for entering a class that's offered. Even if they did (and I don't think they do), the 2'6" classes around here have the highest participation. So you'd be in the majority!

I don't know about the county associations around the country. Here you get a mix of people at every show. Many do the rated in addition to the local association, and I can't tell by looking at a pair who does what.The only qualification for doing rated is the ability to pay the bill, so it's not like the rated riders always outclass those who stay local.

Now, if Tommy Serio and Popeye K do beginner cross rails to win the pink grooming box and sparkle princess crop away from a tiny tot on a schoolie, that would bug me! :lol: But mostly I see a bunch of ammies trying to do their best and have fun while doing it. If they enter the appropriate classes, I don't care what else they do.

Sure, there will always be those who sandbag and stick to the lower fences when they should move up. However, you see that among those who stick to local shows and among those who do nothing but the rated stuff. That's an entirely different problem.

HenryisBlaisin'

Aug. 12, 2009, 08:56 PM

I've read this thread for the past couple of days and have a couple of opinions. I'm very much a "local" rider. The local shows are what I can afford, and more importantly, they are fun. I never liked showing in the rated arena, because people spend too much time worrying about how much something costs. It's almost like a contest between some riders. "My new horse cost $70,000" "My new bridle is a TC and it cost $500" etc. No, not all "A"riders are this way, but it goes around for sure.

No matter what level I show at, I turn out myself and my horse to the best of my ability, but within my budget. When I was a kid, I showed in rubber boots and a hand-me-down jacket that was a size too big, because that's what I could buy with my birthday money. They were, however, clean and polished-sometimes cleaner than the expensive leather boots some kids wore. My parents didn't pay a dime for me to show, and I was lucky if they came to watch. I only care about ribbons in that they are proof of accomplishment, but not the accomplishment itself. I find it slightly insulting to hear some people say that if I only worked harder, I'd be better. I work my butt off to show locally. I can afford one lesson a week, and that gets fit in between a full-time job and the freelance work I take on. I ride whenever I can, my $700 horse is given proper nutrition and grooming, and he is round and shiny, healthy and clean. I don't think that because we're not good enough to show at the "A's" that we don't work just as hard with what we have as those who are lucky enough to have the means.

That said, I don't care who comes to the local shows if they are showing in the appropriate divisions, and for the right reasons, i.e. budget cutbacks, schooling a greenie, etc. If they are only in it because there was no "A" show to go to and they just want to cruise around at a lower division to pile up the blues. IMO, riders should show at the level they show at in the "A's" if it's available, and not lower. Riding a 3'6" horse that wins consistently at that level in a 2' class just to grab a few ribbons is poor sportsmanship. So, in fact, is it when the local level rider stays at a lower division longer than they need to without moving up, just because they can clean up at w-t and know they will get beat at w-t-c. Showing at an appropriate level if available, or HC in a lower division if it's not, is fair, no matter what level you usually show at.

The last local circuit I showed on had a rule that you had to show at "X" number of points shows to be eligible for year-end awards. Nobody complained about the rule, and most of the year end points were about the same as they ended up at almost every show anyway. They were considering a rule that riders couldn't show w-t for more than two years on the same horse without a valid reason (such as physical disability that prevented them moving up)-because a few kids showed in w-t for years who everyone knew were prefectly capable of cantering-but they loved getting all the ribbons, and show management wanted to curtail this. Personally, I like the idea of an ISHA type system where after a rider earns a certain number of points, they must move up and are no longer eligible for the lower division. But we never had a problem taking on all comers, if they competed fairly.

Filly85'

Aug. 12, 2009, 09:58 PM

I meant to quote see u at x...sorry bout that. And then I just talked to anyone who wants to read...

Why not just pick a division and go in unjudged? I do it all the time, and all the local shows that I have been to have been more than happy to accommodate me. I even go in there with any training equipment and polo wraps or boots on so that everyone knows I'm just schooling.

I am in the process of reschooling my old show hunter from a long hiatus (like 5 or 6 years!) off the show scene so I wouldn't even think of doing an A show with him at the moment. I just throw on a polo shirt, half chaps, paddock boots and breeches, and off we go to school, socialize, and have a great time.

I am trying to get my horse's confidence back and to develop the partnership that we once had, but the goals should be the same. If you're trying to build confidence, then there is nothing better to take a green horse to a show, and not have the pressure of actually getting everything show ready and showing. Just school. Have fun. If your horse behaves and you get some good fences in, then you should get a lot of confidence from that.

I have competed against A riders a lot at the local shows in past and have seen a lot of pros schooling horses at these local shows to gear the horses towards the bigger shows. I didn't know that it was so uncommon. I've found it relatively common in this area.

I have never had a problem with anyone I competed against at these shows, even as a junior. I didn't care about showing against a pro, an adult, or a child like me, and I did all three a whole lot. I just got my game on, went in there, and did my best. But, I know that not everyone feels this way, even though I believe that they should. I didn't ever worry about what the other riders were doing or who they were in the ring. I just worried about what I was doing with my horse, and usually, I came out pretty good. I think the kids are better for it if they are showing against the adults. When they beat them, they feel really good about themselves. When they get beat by the adults, it is humbling, but at the same time, they know that they're striving to be as good as them and that the adults have a lot of years in the saddle on them.

I also had no problem with adults showing green horses either.

The local shows at my barn are geared to where the adults have to show against the kids in some classes if they are going to show at all. There is only one class for strictly adults, but there are multiple classes strictly for novice and young horses that the adults can show in. The novice rider division is only open to riders who have been showing for less than 2 years. Then you have some age divided classes as well for the experienced juniors that the adults cannot go in. The rest are open classes and the experienced juniors show against the adults (novice riders have their own separate division).

There is only one adult who regularly shows at this show series that isn't on a green bean, but the rider is coming off of multiple surgeries and a long time out of the saddle, so her horse is in reschooling like mine. The rest of the adults are on green beans so the juniors often win anyway.

IMO, its the parents complaining, not the kids.

If you're showing, and you're worried about what everyone else is doing or who you're competing against, then you won't have as good of a time and riding is about having fun.

About 5-6 years ago, my trainers had clients who competed at the AAs like Upperville and the State Fair. Guess, what, the horses and riders were prepped at the locals;) These were very nice horses, but sometimes, they got beat at the locals fair and square. No harm done for the horses and riders, and I bet it made the other riders feel really good.

I did show in the Adult Equitation last out at a show that has VHSA point classes, and got beat by a rider who admitted that she was a backyard type of rider at the moment, but used to compete on the H/J circuit as a junior. I congratulated her and she should have beat me. She got the counter canter in the test dead on. I didn't balance my horse quite enough, and he switched leads. She beat me fair and square and I bet it made her feel great!

Side note: The true A circuit horse is not likely going to win a 2' class at the local show. Why? The true 3'6" A circuit horse is going to jump 2 feet over the 2' rail...ie. be 3'9" to 4'0" up.

LetsRide

Aug. 12, 2009, 10:20 PM

I meant to quote see u at x...sorry bout that. And then I just talked to anyone who wants to read...

Why not just pick a division and go in unjudged? I do it all the time, and all the local shows that I have been to have been more than happy to accommodate me. I even go in there with any training equipment and polo wraps or boots on so that everyone knows I'm just schooling.

I am in the process of reschooling my old show hunter from a long hiatus (like 5 or 6 years!) off the show scene so I wouldn't even think of doing an A show with him at the moment. I just throw on a polo shirt, half chaps, paddock boots and breeches, and off we go to school, socialize, and have a great time.

I am trying to get my horse's confidence back and to develop the partnership that we once had, but the goals should be the same. If you're trying to build confidence, then there is nothing better to take a green horse to a show, and not have the pressure of actually getting everything show ready and showing. Just school. Have fun. If your horse behaves and you get some good fences in, then you should get a lot of confidence from that.

I have competed against A riders a lot at the local shows in past and have seen a lot of pros schooling horses at these local shows to gear the horses towards the bigger shows. I didn't know that it was so uncommon. I've found it relatively common in this area.

I have never had a problem with anyone I competed against at these shows, even as a junior. I didn't care about showing against a pro, an adult, or a child like me, and I did all three a whole lot. I just got my game on, went in there, and did my best. But, I know that not everyone feels this way, even though I believe that they should. I didn't ever worry about what the other riders were doing or who they were in the ring. I just worried about what I was doing with my horse, and usually, I came out pretty good. I think the kids are better for it if they are showing against the adults. When they beat them, they feel really good about themselves. When they get beat by the adults, it is humbling, but at the same time, they know that they're striving to be as good as them and that the adults have a lot of years in the saddle on them.

IMO, its the parents complaining, not the kids.

If you're showing, and you're worried about what everyone else is doing or who you're competing against, then you won't have as good of a time and riding is about having fun.

About 5-6 years ago, my trainers had clients who competed at the AAs like Upperville and the State Fair. Guess, what, the horses and riders were prepped at the locals;) These were very nice horses, but sometimes, they got beat at the locals fair and square. No harm done for the horses and riders, and I bet it made the other riders feel really good.

I did show in the Adult Equitation last out at a show that has VHSA point classes, and got beat by a rider who admitted that she was a backyard type of rider at the moment, but used to compete on the H/J circuit as a junior. I congratulated her and she should have beat me. She got the counter canter in the test dead on. I didn't balance my horse quite enough, and he switched leads. She beat me fair and square and I bet it made her feel great!

Side note: The true A circuit horse is not likely going to win a 2' class at the local show. Why? The true 3'6" A circuit horse is going to jump 2 feet over the 2' rail...ie. be 3'9" to 4'0" up.

Oh for peat's sake! Did you NOT just have a recent thread here where you were ranting about horrible bad unfair judging at a tiny little horse show in your barn you rode in? The thread turned into such a trainwreak that it was completely deleted by the mods. You even deleted your original post. Give me a break! :dead:

Filly85'

Aug. 12, 2009, 10:35 PM

Oh for peat's sake! Did you NOT just have a recent thread here where you were ranting about horrible bad unfair judging at a tiny little horse show in your barn you rode in? The thread turned into such a trainwreak that it was completely deleted by the mods. You even deleted your original post. Give me a break! :dead:

Yes. The judge was bad. Bad judges don't get a free pass, and she is no longer a judge. It's not a tiny little horse show. Being a local show does not make it insignificant to some. Why are you trying to start something again? I never did anything to you or anyone else who went completely out of control in that thread. You all didn't even bother to read the orginal post or the additional posts. Don't turn this thread into a trainwreck please. If you want to pm me to discuss this, then do so...

This thread has nothing to do with me. I stated my opinion, and I for one have gotten sick of the same posters degrading other posters over and over again. Since you know me and know the show, and whatever problem you have with me outside of this message board, then pm me like an adult so I can address it properly without turning this into trainwreck thread. There is some good information in here, and I for one don't want it to be ruined. If stating my opinion just ruins a thread from the git go, then I will post under a different user name on the rare occassions that I actually have time to post here.

Haalter

Aug. 13, 2009, 12:21 AM

Oh for peat's sake! Did you NOT just have a recent thread here where you were ranting about horrible bad unfair judging at a tiny little horse show in your barn you rode in? Jeez, LetsRide, it was NOT a tiny little horse show and it was a VERY IMPORTANT CLASS - you know, the very prestigious and challenging trotting over poles class? This inept and incompetent judge may well have prevented filly from qualifying for the trotting over poles division at Devon or Indoors, and that would be a real tragedy. That's why the powers that be had to take away her Judge's Card - that judge is NO LONGER A JUDGE and is NO LONGER ALLOWED to judge trotting over poles ever again, in any country, except maybe Antarctica. And even there, that judge is on probation for the next 5 years.

Chef Jade

Aug. 13, 2009, 12:24 AM

Great post RugBug!!!! And lovely boy who could fit right in at the "A" no matter what mood he was in. Trust me, I have seen some mega dollar horses put the brakes on too! :cool:

LetsRide

Aug. 13, 2009, 12:54 AM

Jeez, LetsRide, it was NOT a tiny little horse show and it was a VERY IMPORTANT CLASS - you know, the very prestigious and challenging trotting over poles class? This inept and incompetent judge may well have prevented filly from qualifying for the trotting over poles division at Devon or Indoors, and that would be a real tragedy. That's why the powers that be had to take away her Judge's Card - that judge is NO LONGER A JUDGE and is NO LONGER ALLOWED to judge trotting over poles ever again, in any country, except maybe Antarctica. And even there, that judge is on probation for the next 5 years.

:lol:

:winkgrin:

:lol:

JenEM

Aug. 13, 2009, 05:41 AM

Maybe I'm lucky to live in an area with a lot of very nice local shows, where there is a lot of crossover between people doing the local shows and rated stuff. It doesn't bother me at all, so long as riders are doing classes that they are qualified for. If you're doing the AOs and come show in the crossrails to pick up a couple of ribbons, its ridiculous and unfair, but to go do a local adult division at 3' or even 2'6"? Doesn't bother me at all.

Now, I payed less for my mare than I pay in board for her each month, but she's a pretty good looking horse (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2501/3812298193_44127c8135.jpg), IMVHO, and one day I do hope to do a nice mix of local stuff, some rated stuff, and even :eek: some eventing. For now, we're learning, I'm investing my money in lessons and training, and carefully scheduling some local showing, where I will be outfitted entirely on clothing and tack that I didn't pay full price for :yes: You can look good on a budget, and have a clean shiny horse on a budget. Curry combs are cheap ;)

supershorty628

Aug. 13, 2009, 06:59 AM

Okay, for some reason I can't get my quote to work... but in response to the post above me, not only are curry combs cheap, they are now available at Bed, Bath, and Beyond as some sort of massage mitt. There is NO difference between the "massage mitt" and the gel curry I have in my grooming kit, and at B,B,&B, it's only $4.99! Wow!

Giddy-up

Aug. 13, 2009, 08:35 AM

I'm going to chime in the the "you need a $$$$$$ horse to play in the A sand box" thing.

See, this is where I think people get confused. Any horse can show at any show. But to win at the A/AA shows you need a horse with QUALITY. Yes, QUALITY can cost $$$$, but it also depends on the situation. Some riders can make their own horses (doing their own training). Some people can pick diamonds out of the field (finding a cheap horse). Some people don't mind the maint of a older or horse with issues if it's quality (horse with limitations). And some people can just gosh darn it ride (the difficult quality horse). Unfortunately if you don't fall into those catergories (which eventually you could) then you are probably going to have shell out some more $$$ for a QUALITY horse.

But to automatically make the assumption you need a $$$$$$$ horse or else you can't go to an A show only perpertuates the A shows are only for super special exculsive rich people idea. I have seen plenty of $$$$$$ horses that are giant POS's that people got royally screwed in the deal. They aren't even A QUALITY horses. So the price tag of a horse doesn't always reflect it's QUALITY accurately--that's only what somebody was willing to pay for it.

Trixie

Aug. 13, 2009, 09:11 AM

I find it slightly insulting to hear some people say that if I only worked harder, I'd be better. I work my butt off to show locally. I can afford one lesson a week, and that gets fit in between a full-time job and the freelance work I take on. I ride whenever I can, my $700 horse is given proper nutrition and grooming, and he is round and shiny, healthy and clean. I don't think that because we're not good enough to show at the "A's" that we don't work just as hard with what we have as those who are lucky enough to have the means.

I’m not sure exactly what you’re insulted BY – it sounds like you’re working hard so that you will get better? I can’t imagine you’re working your butt off to such a degree NOT to improve. I’d imagine if you continue to work hard, you WILL by default get better.

We can all only work within our means. Some have more means than others, which means that they have a little more leeway. They might move up faster than those of us riding green horses or horses that need more work. But generally if a rider really keeps at it – reads everything they can, attends clinics when they can afford it, watches videos of the best riding and competing, and really puts in the elbow grease – they wind up being quite competent indeed, and often quite competitive as well.

FWIW, I was responding to Mardi’s commentary, which basically tells folks that they’ll NEVER measure up so don’t try, and the concept that it’s simply better to keep those that are better out of the picture. I disagree.

Jsalem

Aug. 13, 2009, 10:27 AM

Giddy-Up, I agree with you. It's about QUALITY more than $$$$. Even if a rider's budget is tiny, tiny, there are nice quality horses out there. I am frustrated by folks that go out and by a cheap, green horse- that is unattractive, moves poorly, jumps poorly- and then they get this whiney attitude that that's all they afford. You could have picked a green horse that was the right type to begin with!

There are plenty of folks at our local shows that have 5 figure horses that they don't bathe or clip for the shows. Their training programs are not designed to foster good jumping style, only to "get the numbers" down the lines and do flying lead changes. The standards that are required to be competitive at the A and AA shows have to do with quality. An attractive horse that is an attractive mover and stylish jumper who lopes around with a big, but slow stride is going to be competitive anywhere. That is a matter of education, not $$$.

magnolia73

Aug. 13, 2009, 10:59 AM

Yeah-
You can with some savvy, time and effort have a nice horse on a budget.

My horse was $3500. Here she is at her first show (trainer up- I wish it was me!):
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/photo.php?pid=30658332&id=1191895652

She could use a bigger jump to show her form, but she loped around, swaps, jumps pretty nice for 2' jumps and is an all around good egg. She lives in a pasture 24/7. She is NOT the right horse if you wanted to go and show the day you bought her. It has been a lot of work. My trainer has been resourceful and we have taken her training very slow to create that lopey way of going. (Her preference was to rush).

No, she is not the next Roxdene, nor will she win the hack. But most certainly, if she continues in this direction, she will have the ability to put in a quality trip given a good ride.

What were "the goods" that made me choose her? She is quiet and from day one had the lopey metronome canter. She also had the start of lead changes. And she has the look- big, and long. It took looking at 4 horses to find her. She is an easy ride, but has her quirks- stay the heck out of her face! Well, what makes a better hunter than one that goes along on a loopy rein happy as a clam?

You do see people who want to do hunters make really wrong buying decisions. They buy horses that look araby. Or very uphill TB's that are hot that would be awesome eventers or dressage horses, but need too much packaging. Or they buy a QH with a short step. Or they want to show next month, but buy something green and rush to the ring, ruining the relaxed image.

IMO, if the A show people want to come ride at the shows I show at, bring 'em! I will say- personally, the biggest barrier to me showing A shows is the money- but not in terms of horse flesh, but in terms of entry fees. I can't afford the A shows. But it is not because I can't afford a 5 figure horse.

Jsalem

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:14 AM

Yep, Magnolia, you get it. Lovely horse, BTW.

Jumperprincess

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:23 AM

Good grief, calm down. I show because I want to make myself and my horses better. I have learned alot from the so-called professionals. I hate to say this but its NOT all about the winning. I think your focus might be a tad off-sorry

findeight

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:40 AM

And all the rated shows I go to have tons of unrated divisions at heights 2' to 2'6", which encourages participation at ALL levels.

OK, look at my case, cost for one, single 2'6" division of 3 over fences and 1 under saddle at AA show (in the worst ring out of 7 on the property)-1200 or so as show is in another state, almost 300 miles round trip so has to ship when others ship. I work so full day care required all week.

Cost of TWO divisions, 8 O/f and 2 U/S at average good local, around 500-700 including stall. 3 days full care/traing rides/coaching or I can do partial for a discount and school my own the day before (no thanks. but that's another thread).

Soooo...being NOT made of money and even though I have alot of A show miles, not much of a choice there.

Oh, you can have my ribbon of I beat you or your kid. I actually don't pick them up any more but never was why I showed.

And I never won a stinkin' jacket.

RugBug

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:43 AM

And I never won a stinkin' jacket.

I hear GSDHJA has some available. :winkgrin:

Giddy-up

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:51 AM

I hear GSDHJA has some available. :winkgrin:

shhhh...I am going to fly in & try to win one. And how does one win this cruise that was mentioned?? I'd prefer that over a jacket honestly. :D

showmom858

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:56 AM

Giddy-up - you can win the cruise by being the highpoint winner for the season in certain divisions. It is a cruise for 2 including airfare and is quite nice. Two people from our barn were highpoint champs last year and took the cruise.

Haalter

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:59 AM

You can have your jackets and your cruise...I was thinking about shipping cross country to win the CWD saddle. For a flat class?! That's a pretty impressive prize!

2bayboys

Aug. 13, 2009, 12:00 PM

OK, look at my case, cost for one, single 2'6" division of 3 over fences and 1 under saddle at AA show (in the worst ring out of 7 on the property)-1200 or so as show is in another state, almost 300 miles round trip so has to ship when others ship. I work so full day care required all week.

Cost of TWO divisions, 8 O/f and 2 U/S at average good local, around 500-700 including stall. 3 days full care/traing rides/coaching or I can do partial for a discount and school my own the day before (no thanks. but that's another thread).

Soooo...being NOT made of money and even though I have alot of A show miles, not much of a choice there.

I totally agree. Which is why my two younguns are currently making the rounds at the local shows, where they can get much-needed experience without me taking out a mortgage to finance it. Maybe we'll move up, maybe we won't, but I'm enjoying the process.

RugBug

Aug. 13, 2009, 12:09 PM

You can have your jackets and your cruise...I was thinking about shipping cross country to win the CWD saddle. For a flat class?! That's a pretty impressive prize!

It's only a 5 hour drive for me...and new horse needs a new saddle. CWD is on my wish list. :winkgrin:

imapepper

Aug. 13, 2009, 07:34 PM

It's only a 5 hour drive for me...and new horse needs a new saddle. CWD is on my wish list. :winkgrin:

Geez...saddles, cruises and jackets? :eek: I was happy with tack store gift certificates and wine glasses :rolleyes: I live in the wrong area :winkgrin:

Is that saddle a prize for the Adult jumper class? I might have to start hauling that way :lol:

Mardi

Aug. 13, 2009, 10:54 PM

FWIW, I was responding to Mardi’s commentary, which basically tells folks that they’ll NEVER measure up so don’t try, and the concept that it’s simply better to keep those that are better out of the picture. I disagree.

Uh oh. I don't think I meant to convey that.

I certainly do want riders to learn, improve and move up.
Those small shows are the spring that feeds the big shows.
And the trainers at the small shows are teaching the beginners
that many big time trainers won't touch.

The small shows are vital to our sport. They are what feeds it !
Perhaps that's why I'm a bit protective of them.

When small show trainers and parents say too many big kids are jumping into the little kids' wading pool, it's time to work something out.

If the big kids just wade in with the little kids, that's great.
It's when they start doing cannon balls that it's a problem. :)

Peggy

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:32 PM

You can have your jackets and your cruise...I was thinking about shipping cross country to win the CWD saddle. For a flat class?! That's a pretty impressive prize!For the OCHSA version, first you have to place first or second in your age group. There were 20 in the adults and that was the smallest group. Typically lots of work w/o stirrups, transitions within and b/w gaits and so on. Then the top two from the age groups compete for the saddle. You pretty much need a horse that's capable of doing the flat phase of the USET. Not sure how the GSDHJA one works once you get to the finals show, but I've ridden in the qualifying classes at the regular shows and they work you pretty hard.

But I did win a jacket last year by basically having the wonderful opportunity to be sitting on a very nice-moving horse that belonged to someone else. I got that opportunity by working hard at the barn, on and off the horses.

Vandy

Aug. 13, 2009, 11:43 PM

Peggy, that sounds wonderful! I so wish we had something like that in our area for the kids/ammies that show locally in my area...starting last year, our state assoc. took away our local medal finals entirely and now only gives a prize to the high point riders from the year for pony, ch/aa, and jr/am local medals. IMO, this rewards attending every show and chasing points vs. being tested hard at a year end show like you describe. It's a bummer :(

showmom858

Aug. 14, 2009, 12:07 PM

Peggy - The flat medal final for GSDHJA is a very hard one just as you described for OCHSA. Last year they had so many qualified that they split into two sections before they decided on the top ones. In the end they come down to 2 riders and have them switch horses (I think they did that last year? I know they did the year before.). It is a great class to just participate in and really is a hard medal final. The kids come and horses come out of the ring dripping wet!

englishivy

Aug. 14, 2009, 02:40 PM

Oh, I don't even know where to start with my comments, there are just too many to organize. :head spinning:

1) The problem of "A riders" crossing over isn't really the fact that people with nicer horses/bigger budgets/etc are showing in little backyard shows. It's that showing for most people has become about ribbons, point chasing, and year end awards (on all levels). If that's all you get out of your showing experience, you are missing out on so much.

2) When this complaint comes up, I think it's fair to say that BOTH sides can be guilty of poor sportsmanship: I feel no less offended by the "A" rider who sandbags than the local rider who doesn't move up and continues to "clean up" just for that year end award. My experience is that the former happens less than the latter, but it goes both ways.

3) I don't think you can solely blame it on local trainers for the issue arrising; not all are incapable of edcuating their clients (I'd like to think I do a good job!). I feel most of the problem comes from the "instant gratification" and "entitlement" attitude of present society. That is why some riders sandbag, and why others won't move on. And why some trainers at ALL levels will do what it takes to keep their clients happy and winning, even if it means sandbagging or holding them back. :no:

4) I don't care who is showing against my kids, or where they came from, or what they've done. Because when it comes down to it, it's about how YOU did compared to your last show/last round/last fence. Did you fix your mistakes? Did you make improvement? What do we need to work on for the next time?

I'd rather be the worst of the fantastic than the best of the god-awful any day.