Which two-point is right?

[Jumping Junkie]

ok, so I ride with one hunter trainer and recently rode with a more advanced trainer.
Trainer #1 has me have a completely flat back in two-point and has me hold my hands a few inches above the mane, while making sure i don't brace on my horse's mouth.

Trainer #2 has me ride with a slight arch in my lower back on flat and two-point and has me grab mane to help keep me balanced.

now i was just wondering which is the correct...or proper way to ride a nice two-point position

help me!!!

[Seven-up]

Hands floating above the mane is not a correct crest release. Know where the crest is? It's not in the air above the mane.

If you need to hold on to the mane to balance, then by all means do it. The object is to develop enough strength in your lower body and core to support yourself without grabbing mane or balancing on reins. But everyone, no matter how experienced, has the occasional jump where it's necessary to grab a hunk of mane to avoid eating dirt. So, grab mane until you don't have to any more.

Flat back or arched back is sort of an asthetic thing, so the answer to that depends. Sometimes, due to the rider's conformation, arched back is overkill and looks braced and forced. On others, anything less than an arched back looks like they're hunched over. A lot of times when instructors say, "Arch your back!" all they're really trying to do is get your back flat. So while YOU think you're arching your back, you're not actually doing it at much as you think you are and your back is just flat.

Personally, I prefer a soft, flat back to an overly arched one. Depends on how much junk you have floating around behind you ;) as to how how arched you look.


Check out George Morris' book on hunt seat equitation for a good idea of the correct, classical position.

From the info you gave, I'd say each instructor is about half right.

[joiedevie99]

Over a fence, hovering hands is never correct. However, I see the value in riding around on the flat without resting the hands down- as a balance exercise- or as an exercise towards developing the automatic release (in which case the hands should be down to the sides of the crest, not hovering above).

[make x it x so]

Over a fence, hovering hands is never correct. However, I see the value in riding around on the flat without resting the hands down- as a balance exercise- or as an exercise towards developing the automatic release (in which case the hands should be down to the sides of the crest, not hovering above).

Similar to this, the "Arched Back" instructor may be asking you to exaggerate the position in an effort to get the correct result. I know my trainer tells me all the time to "SIT BEHIND THE MOTION" when I'm leaning forward. I know that she doesn't actually want me to be behind my horse, but the visualization allows me to sit up straight and tall and work on my muscle memory.

[Silk]

Similar to this, the "Arched Back" instructor may be asking you to exaggerate the position in an effort to get the correct result. I know my trainer tells me all the time to "SIT BEHIND THE MOTION" when I'm leaning forward. I know that she doesn't actually want me to be behind my horse, but the visualization allows me to sit up straight and tall and work on my muscle memory.

True that!!

[Chylli]

If you are talking about 2-p OTF than they both are correct. Grabbing mane is when you first start off so to get your balance. Once you feel like you will not hit the horse in the mouth you can start letting go of the mane and practice balancing on your own, not leaning on the neck. You should not be pushing or pulling in a 2-p, just balanced in the center...in the perfect world.

O/F you should not float your hands above the neck. But it doesn’t hurt to grab a little mane if need be.

[Vandy]

To expand on Chylli's comment - if you are in a hack at a horse show, it would be absolutely correct to canter or hand gallop in your two point with your hands above the mane, not grabbing it. Same goes for hand gallop in eq classes on the way to a jump or in a flat class. So I'd agree, both are right, just teaching different skills. IMO, hands above the crest is actually more advanced...as long as we are talking about flatwork, not jumping.

[Brooke]

Whatever happened to keeping a straight line from the horse's mouth through your hands to your elbow? Depending on your conformation and the way the horse carries itself, your hands could be above or at the mane. As far as practicing the two point, until you are firm and steady in your base of support, I would want my student to pinch a little mane, even with one hand, to hold his or her balance.

[make x it x so]

Whatever happened to keeping a straight line from the horse's mouth through your hands to your elbow? Depending on your conformation and the way the horse carries itself, your hands could be above or at the mane. As far as practicing the two point, until you are firm and steady in your base of support, I would want my student to pinch a little mane, even with one hand, to hold his or her balance.

As we others have discussed, the "hands on the mane" should be read more as "hands on the crest," in other words, practicing a proper crest release where the horse's neck is used to support the upper body and prevent the rider from pulling on the horse's mouth in the air. This means that there will not (usually) be a straight line from elbow to bit, and is the reason the automatic release is preferred by many once they are stable enough in their two-point to use it

When in two-point on the flat, however, the traditional straight-line principle should be followed, unless the rider is a beginner and needs the neck for support.

[findeight]

More important to hold balance and protect the horse's mouth then to worry about somebody putting a ruler on a picture to judge how straight the line is.

The line is secondary and very dependendent on horse and rider conformation and way of going on the flat. Totally inappropriate to worry about it until the rider is quite advanced over fences. Even then it is one of several choices in releases and all are correct.

The line is a result of proper position, balance and independent use of seat, leg and hand, not a goal to copy at the expense of these basics. Also the last thing that should be looked at in a rider, you need to look lower down at the base of support.

[Jumping Junkie]

thanks! i'm going to start riding with Trainer #2, i feel more confident and secure riding with her, which i think is a major detail when riding with a trainer. thanks again everyone!

[Brooke]

Findeight - just to clarify. My point was (and probably not very well said) that the base of support is the most important, and until that is well established, it didn't really matter where the hands were exactly -because that should not be the main focus. And also why I suggested taking some mane as one works on the leg and balance. I think I'm reacting to what I see at the local shows - the trainers are all harping at where the hands are rather than balance, security and feel. When I see a stiff arm, stiff hands, and legs flopping around, I guess I'm thinking that they're concentrating on the wrong things.

I didn't think we were talking about over fences, where once the base of support is secure one should probably be thinking about developing a more independent hand, but I assumed that the question was asking about practicing on the flat. Not worried about the 'ruler' and a pretty picture - I was thinking more about a secure seat and a sympathetic hand.

[AmandaandTuff]

Lets see a picture of a correct two point on the flat, I'm curious.

[Brooke]

I think there's a communication gap here. I'm very old school, and we would practice holding a jumping position at the trot. I guess I'm assuming that that is what you're calling a two point. Maybe people don't that any more or maybe that's not what it's called. My bad.

[DancingQueen]

We do a lot of two point work. IMO the two point is great for streching into the heel and developing a base of support in your leg. We also practice holding a jumping position at the walk, trot and canter but this is slightly different.

I prefer my riders to take a feel of the mane or neck while practicing the two point. I think that practicing the two point without using the neck for balance will create stiffness and grabbiness in the leg rather then help the rider find her/his natural balance.
A beginner will have to hold on quite tightly, a more advanced rider will be able to just keep a slight feel of the neck. If you ask a rider to balance in a two point without a contact with the neck she will inevidably loose her balance at some point and then either balance herself on the horses mouth or plunk down on the saddle. Neither is a great thing.

I'm personally a big fan of the mane grab and I think it should be taught as a preferrable alternative to getting left. Even for a professional things doesn't always work out as planned, green horse or whatever. If the instinct to grab mane is there any horse will be much more likely to forgive then if he got caught in the mouth across the top of a bad distance or spooky jump.

Seem like you have a better relationship/more trust with trainer 2 in any case so go with it and enjoy!
Also, if you are not convinced about something your trainer tells you, don't be afraid to ask why. This is not the same as back talk. Simply say when I do this I feel as though... can you explain it to me again. If trainer can't tell you why she wants you to do a certain thing... Hmmm bad sign.

[RugBug]

I think that practicing the two point without using the neck for balance will create stiffness and grabbiness in the leg rather then help the rider find her/his natural balance.
A beginner will have to hold on quite tightly, a more advanced rider will be able to just keep a slight feel of the neck. If you ask a rider to balance in a two point without a contact with the neck she will inevidably loose her balance at some point and then either balance herself on the horses mouth or plunk down on the saddle. Neither is a great thing.

Huh? I can ride in two point all day long without using the neck for balance and I don't pull or plunk. Nor is my leg stiff or grabby. It's called having a good base of support. I could be up there in two point having tea and crumpets without pulling or plunking.

As a beginner, grabbing mane or balancing with help of the crest is a good idea, but as soon as the rider is stable, they should give up the neck for good. If the rider pulls or plunks...back to work they need to go. Grabbing mane is left for times when it's needed.

[JinxyFish313]

I can't stand to see hands floating about the mane. I teach students to *rest* their hands on the crest in the two-point on the flat (and over fences) and do lots of work with one arm straight out, or even both arms out, to ensure that they are developing their core and not becoming dependent on the neck to hold them up. I also have my students do a lot of two-point with no stirrups to help work on the leg. Mane grabbing is only encouraged for beginners learning something new, like the first few weeks cantering I'd rather see them grab mane than grab their horse's mouth as they get used to the rhythm of the new gait, or with my adult beginners who don't have the core/leg strength to hold themselves in the two-point, or an emergency. I still grab mane when I get the "oops!" ride to a big fence.

[RugBug]

I can't stand to see hands floating about the mane. I teach students to *rest* their hands on the crest in the two-point on the flat

On the flat, hands should stay in the same position they were in when you sit, above and slightly in front of the withers. You don't rest your hands in the crest when sitting, why would you when you got into two point? If I see someone with their hands in the crest on the flat, I think the person is a beginner. If so, fine. If not, they need to get their hands independent from their base.

[JinxyFish313]

On the flat, hands should stay in the same position they were in when you sit, above and slightly in front of the withers. You don't rest your hands in the crest when sitting, why would you when you got into two point? If I see someone with their hands in the crest on the flat, I think the person is a beginner. If so, fine. If not, they need to get their hands independent from their base.

Because we learn two-point in preparation for jumping. I don't believe in close, floating hands for two point on the flat...all it does is teach them to bury their hands in their lap over fences. Perhaps what you consider a two-point I call a half seat.

Keeping the hands on the neck also forces them to use their legs to help steer.

[RugBug]

Because we learn two-point in preparation for jumping. I don't believe in close, floating hands for two point on the flat...all it does is teach them to bury their hands in their lap over fences. Perhaps what you consider a two-point I call a half seat.

Keeping the hands on the neck also forces them to use their legs to help steer.

Hrmm...I grew up with two-point and half-seat as synonyms. Shrug. I know lot's of people these days don't use them that way, I still do.

Two-point is for galloping as well as jumping. You spend the majority of your time on a course in two point, except for rollbacks, tight turns, etc. (or at least I do).

The point is to develop independent hands that can lead to more advanced riding (automatic release, opening reins over a jump, etc.). If you're shackled with a habit of resting your hands on the neck while jumping, you're not going to get very far with your riding. Also, I would be worried about developing muscle memory that leads to set hands, not hands that could use a variety of releases when desired.

But, I guess it's just a difference of opinion. I'm happy that my hands are independent while I'm in two point. I'd feel like a total beginner if I had to rest them on the crest (and probably wouldn't last long with a trainer who told me to do so all the time...for a specific exercise with a specific goal..sure, but not all the time).

[JinxyFish313]

In my world, two point = crest release, half seat = typical up-out-of-the-saddle hunter position.

I don't teach an automatic or following release until the student is jumping pretty high and has a rock solid base of support. IMHO, you don't need that type of release until you're at the point where a crest release would inhibit your horse's ability to jump.

Of course I would love for everyone I teach to have completely independent aides, but that takes many years for most people. Like I said, we do tons of exercises designed to ensure that the rider is *resting* the hands on the crest, not leaning on them and becoming dependent on the neck. Floating hands under about the 3'6" level just means the horse is going to get hit in the mouth and/or the rider is going to require plastic surgery. Strengthening your base is what all the years up to that are for.

[RugBug]

In my world, two point = crest release, half seat = typical up-out-of-the-saddle hunter position.

I don't teach an automatic or following release until the student is jumping pretty high and has a rock solid base of support. IMHO, you don't need that type of release until you're at the point where a crest release would inhibit your horse's ability to jump.

Of course I would love for everyone I teach to have completely independent aides, but that takes many years for most people. Like I said, we do tons of exercises designed to ensure that the rider is *resting* the hands on the crest, not leaning on them and becoming dependent on the neck. Floating hands under about the 3'6" level just means the horse is going to get hit in the mouth and/or the rider is going to require plastic surgery. Strengthening your base is what all the years up to that are for.

I currently jump 2'9". The largest fence I've ever jumped was 3'3". My hands are independent. I don't FLOAT my hands...over fences or on the flat. My hands are where they should be, above and slightly in front of the withers. I don't need an automatic release, but l do need the ability to use my reins in front of a fence, especially if I'm riding a naughty horse. Not to mention using an opening rein if necessary.

By the time a rider is doing much more than crossrails, they should be able to canter around the ring, in two-point, without resting their hands on the horses neck. If they are flailing about, pulling and plunking, they aren't balanced enough to jump more than X-rails while grabbing mane EVERY time.

How do your studens ride a canter in a hunter under saddle class? Resting those darn hands or actually riding?

[Janet]

From the rule book (EQ108.2)
2. Hands. Hands should be over and in front of horse’s withers, knuckles thirty degrees
inside the vertical, hands slightly apart and making a straight line from horse’s mouth to
rider’s elbow. Bight of reins may fall on either side. However, all reins must be picked up at
the same time. When using two reins, the snaffle rein should be on the outside while the
curb rein is on the inside.

Can't have a straight line if the hands are resting on the neck.