Horse Jumps with its Head Up - Thoughts??? VIDEO ADDED at post 11

[forward ride]

Ok, potential low or maybe even high a/o jumper. this guy is 12 yo, but has done a lot of dressage. he has also evented a little, but it is my understanding that, while he is coursing 3'9" with his current trainer/rider, he is a little green over fences.

he has super legs over the jump, i mean, they are up and square every time, but from what i can see in videos, he doesn't bascule over the jump and doesn't use his head/neck much if at all. i wonder if he could be cracking his back while not using his neck?? (it's tough to see) i recently saw a video of him freejumping 5'3" and he does clear it easily several times, but he doesn't use his head or neck at all. his head just stays up where it is when he's cantering & he ends up looking a little like a deer over the top. to be fair, i have also seen a video of him over a 3'6" ish course and he sometimes puts his head down over a jump & sometimes just kinda leaps over.

what does this mean? is this problematic when coursing over bigger fences? trainer is thinking we can "teach him to use his neck"??

thoughts, comments, concerns??? i'm not comfortable posting the video since it's not my horse and i'm not associated with the barn or anything.

[Sebastian]

Kind of impossible to have "thoughts" without seeing him go... There are so many variables...

Do you have any video?

Seb :)

[forward ride]

i figured you guys would say that :( i'm still not comfortable posting video. i'll see if i can scrounge somehting up. in the meantime, feel free to generalize.

topic: horses that jump like deer. scopey or not scopey?

alternative topic: the head and neck -- must they move over a fence or can they remain upright?

:D

[CBoylen]

trainer is thinking we can "teach him to use his neck"??

That is one of the very hardest things to teach a horse to do when it doesn't do it naturally. You may be able to make it slightly better with training and maybe vet work, depending on the problem, but chances are you will not improve it by more than a few degrees.

Otherwise, it depends on the horse. Some are scopey and just jump higher to make up for their form problems. Some are not. My take is that if you are buying a "potential" anything, buy something that has the best chance of making it to do whatever it is that you want to do. Without seeing the horse though, it's hard to tell. It is also going to be a different ride, and you are going to have to sit on it to decide if you would be at all comfortable.

[findeight]

topic: horses that jump like deer. scopey or not scopey?

alternative topic: the head and neck -- must they move over a fence or can they remain upright?

:D

Not scopey, exactly. They get over but if there is a triple bar 3 strides out from landing, kind of dead in the water. Because they land flat footed and cannot generate any impulsion. Deer are designed to go in any direction on landing, not get 50 feet on a straight line to a 5' triple bar.

NO, they cannot "crack the back" without using their neck because the spine runs from the back of the ear to the dock of the tail and it can't just bend in one part without the rest following. Try bending over to the floor only bending from your waist-everything else rigid. Doesn't work that way compared to bending the whole spine in a curve. That's, basically, what a bascule is as the spine between your shoulders, more or less, corresponds to a horse's neck above his shoulder blades. lt easier when you bend there instead of staying rigid.

I have also seen some horses with deformaties or conditions like kissing spines jump this way, or try. Also some with the wrong kind of hip and shoulder length and angles to allow the proper form to create a nice jump. Bad riding is no help but if he free jumps this way, that's not the cause.

And, IMO, you are not going to teach a 12 year old horse to "use his neck" if he never has. He is just not built to do it.

Also, always remember, even a cow can jump 5'. From a standstill-the trick is the rest of the course. So free jumping 5'3" with upright head and stiff neck is not a good sign he can physically arrange his body in a proper fashion to navigate a course.

[Come Shine]

When you say he is jumping like a deer, it makes me think that he is liable to drop a leg and cartwheel over, although you said he is up and tight with his knees.

Is he hurting somewhere? Saddle not fitting right? Rider catching him in the mouth o/f?

However, it this is simply his style, then if the horse is rideable between the fences and careful over them, there can be a lot of variation in jumpers, especially at the lower heights.

I guess you could teach him to use his neck, heck, lots of things are possible, but at 12, what you see is probably more or less what you get.

Can you ride the type of jump he has? Over an entire course? Through a tricky combination?

[Foxtrot's]

While I can't post pictures, any Google search will show pictures of Big Ben. I don't know if this is what you are describing, but Ben jumped with his knees up, but his nose barely came lower than the point where his neck comes out from his chest. Few would argue that he was not a superb jumper.

[findeight]

Tomboy too, very uncoventional. But, I think, not the stiiff and inverted style as was described here and not 12 years old doing Dressage or whatever before they ever started a show ring career.

Have to see a picture or some video but Big Ben is not a fair comparison under Ian Miller to an average horse and rider situation, especially when the horse is 12.

[WorthTheWait95]

My question is if he is truly 'deer' jumping or simply not using his head and neck to the same degree as what some may consider 'normal' horses.

My high junior horse was hard to ride over fences because his head and neck never moved. He was great for improving eq because he 'told' on you if you started to jump ahead (ie: smashing my nose into his neck made me see stars on more then one occasion when I first got him).

Just because he didn't jump with a back crack had nothing to do with how scopey or careful he was. In the three or four years I showed him we only had 8 rails at shows and every one of them was 100% my fault. We should have had many, many more but he was athletic as they came and got me out of a lot of sticky spots.

I rode with several BNT's during the years I showed him and one or two tried to 'fix' his jump but it only resulted in making both of us tense. IMO if a horse is jumping clean and well with no evidence of pain then just leave them well enough alone...you generally just end up creating more problems in the long run bytrying to alter their style.

[PNWjumper]

I agree that it's impossible to say without seeing the horse go. So many variables could be causing a jump like you describe, and without seeing it it's impossible to know if you mean he's truly "jumping like a deer" or simply not using his neck as much as an ideal hunter. It could stem from poor conformation, improper conditioning, improper riding over the jumps, a horse who's extremely scopey and doesn't *need* to use himself over little jumps (and yes, 4'6" is still little to some horses), or about a million other things.

I can share the story of my "leap-y" jumper. I have an 8yo OTTB that I've been moving up through the levels. He has the most massive hind end of any horse I've ever sat on and jumps almost exclusively off of that. He's NEVER going to be a hunter because I don't think he'll ever need to use much of his front end to get over fences. Through the 4' courses he always jumped at least 2' over each fence without bothering to pick up his front legs much. I have some comical pictures of my mare (who's very lazy...er...I mean "efficient" :D) and gelding over the same jumps where my body is literally 2' to 3' higher in the air on my gelding because of his proclivity towards leaping. He'll still occaisionally go into the ring on schooling day and opt not to bend his front legs over the 3'6" jumps. I get lots of "WOW, that horse jumps SO HIGH!" from bystanders, and it's sad to know that it's definitely NOT a compliment :lol:

I moved him up to the 1.25m jumpers last week and he got a tiny bit better form-wise, but he still uses a lot more of his hind end to propel himself up and across the fences. But because his less-than-hunter-like form originates from that massive hind end he's also never going to have a problem getting through lines or across wide fences. I jumped him up to 4'6" at home last weekend and he didn't change his form one bit. It was pretty easy to feel, however, that because he was springing from his hind end he still wasn't having to use himself in the slightest at 4'6". I'd love to see what it takes to make him use himself, but I'm WAY to chicken to sit on him over as big of a fence as I think it would take, especially considering how green he is. And I'm scared of backing him off in any way at this point in his jumping career.

Anyhow, that's my one horse's story. I've seen others that jumped in that manner because they were NOT scopey at all, and still others that were jumping that way because of pain or soreness issues. Again, it's impossible to judge something like that without seeing the horse go.

[forward ride]

thanks for your responses.

here's the freejump video on youtube. there's another one of him over fences too (a/b right to the side of the video i posted once you open it). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyRQXPANA&feature=channel

i think he is super cute & i hear he is very sweet, but not any easy ride, which is fine for me because although an easy ride is super, i cannot in any way afford the easy ride a/o jumper :D

i have not ridden him because he is in Washington and i am in California (and I still have my 16.5 year old ottb aa/mojam jumper whom i am reluctant to part with, but i work full time and cannot be competitive with 2 horses at once and that is another thread :D ) anyways, i am checking out what options arise. i just need some totally unbiased thoughts. someone who isn't gonna get a commission or paid lessons or training or another commission if i sell him later, you know?

thank you for your sage thoughts :)

[Nibs]

there is no problem with a horse that jumps like this. I wouldnt worry about his style at all, looks like a nice horse to me!

[findeight]

Not what I visualised. He is not inverted at all and is using his neck on landing. Kind of backed off in the small indoor. No pace to help him over-firing out of a dead stop a few times and a backed off trot the others, not a proper jumping chute to enable good form..and he is looking at the camera more then where he is going.

Think he is doing a darn good job getting over under these conditions. Not a Hunter but no deer. At all. Nice horse.

[PNWjumper]

I agree with the others.....this isn't what I would consider "jumping like a deer." If I had videos of my gelding when we first started I'd post them as a stark contrast! I think this gelding looks quite nice under the circumstances.

I can also say that I've worked with Hannah quite a bit (she sold a horse for me and I've looked at a couple of others she's had). I absolutely adore her and can't recommend her highly enough. PM me if you'd like to know anything more. :)

[forward ride]

yeah, i didn't do a good job of describing it. once i read WorthTheWait's story, i thought he might be more like that.

i am always wary of freejumping videos, because while you can see form, i am concerned about getting over a full course, jump after jump, not at 5'3" of course, but at 4'3" or maaaaybe 4'6" (though i'm definitely not there yet).

shoot, you guys haven't done a good job of talking me out of going to see this horse. ;)

don't you go enabling me now. ;) (read: it's ok if you want to)

PS: do you guys put any credence in the "he's a young 12" theory? like, he hasn't got much jumping miles on him, so he can go for longer than a "normal" 12 year old? i know it's really based on the horse... but i am in a situation now where my 16 y/o cant go higher, (so it's like a combination of him aging and of me moving up). i just don't want to end up with another 17 y/o horse that i have a great bond with, but who can't go anymore...and this guy will already be 13 before we really get off the ground in the winter/spring.

PNWjumper - i have heard great things about Hannah and she looks like a great rider. my trainer knows her, so i don't have any qualms there. she seems to have some really talented/cute horses up there too! are you up in that area??

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=forward ride;4297847]PS: do you guys put any credence in the "he's a young 12" theory? like, he hasn't got much jumping miles on him, so he can go for longer than a "normal" 12 year old?[QUOTE]

This is one of my absolute biggest pet peeves when talking to a seller. The easiest (though not entirely accurate) comparison I can say is to think about teaching a 5yo kid to ride vs teaching a 35 year old amateur to ride. I feel like a younger horse often picks up on the fluid aspects of serious athletic endeavors better than an older horse (and has a quicker recovery time in terms of soreness, etc.). However, that's not the best comparison since I think a horse jumping is different (easier/more intuitive) than a person learning to ride.

It drives me crazy when somebody says, "well, he hasn't been pounded on as a youngster so he'll have lots more years of jumping ahead of him!" I have 2 huge problems with this:

1. studies have shown that mild stress to a youngster's body actually increases bone mass and overall strength. So I don't consider a horse who was never jumped to be sitting at an advantageous position to a horse that was worked "normally" throughout their lives (definitely better than being POUNDED on early, however).

2. The horse has never shown that it will hold up to jumping. I think a horse's ability to stay sound and jump well into the teens/twenties is very largely determined by conformation and that "it" factor that makes it easy (or not) for a horse to get it's body over jumps without undue stress. A horse that hasn't been jumped regularly hasn't shown whether it's going to hold up to that stress. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Hard to say until you get it going.

That's not to say that the horse won't hold up and go on jumping for years and years, but I put zero credence in the idea that the horse will hold up for LONGER because it wasn't jumped. I think in most cases the horse won't hold up for AS LONG as it could have because of the lack of jumping....assuming all other conditions were ideal (shoeing, conditioning, vet care, etc.).

In addition, there's a learning curve for jumping and I think a 4 or 5yo horse's body is better prepared to deal with (and heal from) that activity than an older horse. A LOT of the soundness issues I see on the circuit are related more to poor shoeing, poor conditioning, or other "man-related" and compounding issues than just age. So my point there is that I don't think age=lameness, but you will have an increased refractory period due to the age. So if jumping comes very naturally to the horse that may not be much of an issue, but it's certainly something to keep in mind.

With all of that being said, if the horse is scopey enough (i.e. enough of an athlete) then getting it up to the bigger fences may not be difficult. I guess my feeling is that I'm not adverse to picking up an older horse, but it has to be something pretty special to consider doing so. I'm less willing to take a risk on a 12yo than I am on a 3 or 4yo.

[joiedevie99]

How high is the horse working now? I just clicked on one of his coursework videos in the outdoor and I'd guess it to be 3', maybe a bit more?

[forward ride]

PNW, thank you for your response. that is exactly what i was thinking, but unable to quantify as nicely. i would tend to agree with you re taking a risk on a 4 yo vs. a 12 yo, if only becuase i currently have a 16 yo going on 17 yo TB who can course around at 3'6"-3'9" all day and is super sound, but is a 16 yo going on 17 yo TB, (who is not a beginner ride) and no one wants to buy that, so godforbid i ever have a 16 or 17 y/o unsound horse in that situation.

joiedevie - i think he goes around 3'6" in the second course on that outdoor video. i'm told he is coursing 3'9" at home. (the horse is a big bodied 16.1 (iirc))

but, with a 12 yo, i don't want to spend a huge amount of time reaching the mods or low a/os, you know what i mean? i already have an old horse i can take in a mod class (we just drop rails towards the end :) i don't want to say, great, we've made it to low a/os and here i am with a 16 year old horse again. i guess i want to spend time competing on the same horse at that level. is that wierd?

[enjoytheride]

I think that does look like deer jumping, he does it over the bigger fence as well. It's unconventional and isn't a hunter but he gets over the fences and is careful behind. I think he would take some getting used to with the way he uses himself.

He looks better in the under saddle but he is trying to get his head way up several times and she has the leverage of the hackamore to help keep his head down.

[Renn/aissance]

This horse jumps like mine, and within the range of my horse's scope, his style has never caused him any trouble whatsoever. However, you will learn really fast not to over-close your hip angle because you will get smacked in the face with his neck. ;) This horse seems to have no trouble getting through the gymnastic or over that big vertical; it would be interesting to see if he poked his nose down a little if he came out over an oxer, or, in fact, how he handled a sizeable oxer at all; he seems to put his head down a bit over the triple-bar. What concerns me is that in the free-jumping video he seems to have a little bit of a recoil effect in the air when he starts unfolding his landing gear; he tenses his neck and draws his neck back. That happens on some fences in his U/S video as well, although his demeanor there may be a product of the rider slowing him over the fences, as he seems he wants to rush. I just wonder what that is about. He looks like he'd be a good jumper and a good sort, especially with more mileage.

[Seven-up]

He's a jumper. If he can make it over the jumps that's all that matters. I would have not one iota of a problem having that horse in my barn. He uses the rest of his body and looks like he's got plenty of power. He's yummy. Send his purdy giraffe neck my way!!:winkgrin:


There was a horse several years ago in the GP's (back when they used to be on TV...:rolleyes:) that had the weirdest, head in the air jump I've ever seen. I think he was chestnut, don't remember his name or who rode him. His unorthadox style was almost always mentioned, and usually followed up by, "...and it sure doesn't slow him down one bit!"

Point is, if it works, who cares what it looks like?

[wanderlust]

I didn't love him in the free jump vid, then I saw the undersaddle vid and thought "yummy!". I like him. He looks like he has plenty of room to move up. Were it me, I'd add a running martingale to the hackamore- it would put an end to the high-headed thing and possibly give some more power-steering, which can be a problem with the hacks.

On the age issue... fanciest hunter in our barn is an amazingly sound 14-year old who learned to jump last year, after years and years of being a top FEI and young rider dressage horse. The learning curve was a little steep at first, but once he got it... WOW.

[findeight]

OP, I'd read PNWs post carefully about the age thing. I agree with her. Lightly jumped is no guarantee of future soundness or longevity.

He's still 12 and has still be moving around supporting his own body weight for the past 12 years and it is still going to take you, maybe, 1 to 2 years to get from where he is now to the A/O ring and in 4 years you will have another 16 year old.

I got jumped on awhile ago for saying a late teen to early 20's horse is OLD but they ARE old. Especially for competition purposes, get past mid teens and you get into alot of special needs if you want to keep competing over fences at any real height.

I think he is attractive and his form is not an issue...but he will take work to get used to and work to get him to the A/Os. So, IMO, the price should reflect that-at this point he is just a prospect and not proven for what you would be buying him for.

One other thing, and meaning no disrespect to the seller or agent, if he is such a propect, why has nobody taken him to the jumper ring in the past 9 years or so? There may be a good reason or there may be other reasons not shared or maybe even unknown to this seller. I am a cynic.

[dmj]

Yes, he is beautiful and shows athleticism over fences but need to echo what find8 says above - why is he just starting to jump now?

[Madeline]

That has to be Hidden Creek's Alvaretto as he was one of my favorites to watch many years ago. Very blingy chestnut, he was also on the small side! But dang that horse could JUMP.

Also Perin, Tomboy, and a bunch of others jumped like that.

I liked him better in the snaffle, myself...

[forward ride]

Yes, he is beautiful and shows athleticism over fences but need to echo what find8 says above - why is he just starting to jump now?


i'm told only that he has been doing dressage and some low eventing. he is a lot of horse for current owner (don't know how long she's had him) and even trainer says he has a lot of potential "with the right rider". who knows if i am even that rider.

find8 and PNW, i know exactly what you guys mean about the age issue. i don't want to be prejudicial to older horses, but i am an ammie now so i don't anticipate taking any breaks from riding for college or whatever. and barring any major event (knock on wood), i'd like to continue moving up with jumpers (although right now i feel i would be happy for a while perfecting the low a/os, but i'll admit that's what i said when i made it to mojams and aas before that). anyway, this turned into a whole different thread. :)

thanks for everyone's comments. i'm always wary of high freejumps because i don't think it says much about scope so much as it does about form and i like having different opinions and thoughts on that.

[2bayboys]

Cool horse. I think you need to go sit on him!

[Sebastian]

Glad you posted video, not at all what I expected from the original description... That said... I LIKE him.

The head "carriage" does not bother me at all. He's jumping up AND out -- not like a deer. I suspect you will find that his jump is easy to stay with as he is NOT a back-cracker. And, he's very tidy with his feet.

As for his age, do the normal vetting process. It's just as easy for a young one to break...EVERY horse has it's risk-factor. I found my best Eventer as a 12 year old "failed" dressage horse. :yes: :winkgrin: He took to jumping like a duck to water -- like he'd found his calling. We had a blast.

Go try him!!!
Good Luck!
Seb :)

[findeight]

Yes it's just as likely for a young one to break down or fail the training...but if they don't? You have a young horse with 10 or 12+ years ahead.

Even if this one is wonderful, was just unlucky in ending up with owners who did not want to jump...you still will probably have a 14 year old horse when he masters his new craft enough to get to A/O levels against good competition. You will have a horse with, probably, 3 to 5 years left of top level ability.
And please do not cite a few examples of horses doing GPs in their 20's...they are rare and require alot of recovery time and ongoing maintainance. That is a consideration. The majority of top level competitors drop down or retire somewhere between 15 and 18.

The price needs to reflect this and, somehow, I don't think is in the lower price brackets.

I do like him overall. But he needs work and the clock is ticking. Probably like him better for lower levels, not top A/O competition given the time frame involved.

[Sebastian]

Yes it's just as likely for a young one to break down or fail the training...but if they don't? You have a young horse with 10 or 12+ years ahead.

Even if this one is wonderful, was just unlucky in ending up with owners who did not want to jump...you still will probably have a 14 year old horse when he masters his new craft enough to get to A/O levels against good competition. You will have a horse with, probably, 3 to 5 years left of top level ability.
And please do not cite a few examples of horses doing GPs in their 20's...they are rare and require alot of recovery time and ongoing maintainance. That is a consideration. The majority of top level competitors drop down or retire somewhere between 15 and 18.

The price needs to reflect this and, somehow, I don't think is in the lower price brackets.

I do like him overall. But he needs work and the clock is ticking. Probably like him better for lower levels, not top A/O competition given the time frame involved.

Wow, aren't WE miss negative-pants today... :eek:

Every horse is an individual. It took me 3 weeks (yeah...seriously) to get my 12 year old up to 3'9". We were doing the AAs within a few months... YES, there is training to be done, but you are at a HUGE advantage with a horse thats done lots of dressage. He already knows how to use his butt! He already extends and collects. AND, he's mentally more mature, so if he LIKES jumping, he will learn very quickly.

EVERY horse requires care and maintenance at the higher levels. So, as long as he's been well cared for up until this point -- it's a non-issue IMHO.

I presume the OP is working with a trainer, so at this point... THAT is the person who's opinion matters.

Again, good luck.
Seb :)

[LuvMyTB]

I also really like this horse. To me it just looks like he has been schooled in the dressagey headset for a long time, and isn't sure now if he can move his head/neck that much. :D

He appears safe and careful from his under-saddle videos. If the price is right for you, I think he definitely warrants a closer look.