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View Full Version : Would he sell as a straight dressage horse??



mjrtango93
Aug. 10, 2009, 12:59 PM
So I am an eventer for my sport of choice but have done pure dressage in the past on one of my previous horses through 4th level. I have a fabulous 7 year old now that is just not working out as an event horse and was wondering what dressage people thought of him. He is about 16.2hh, big bodied (I'm 6', long-legged and look good on him), ISH x Hanoverian, big mover with an amazing walk and canter, and the trot work gets more suspension everyday as he gets stronger. He already has confirmed leg-yields, shoulder in, started haunches in, started half pass, and has flying changes from jumping and it doing them now as dressage changes as well.

Here's the catch, he can be silly when at home and has a bit of a buck and spin (nothing naughty or dangerous but he is playful), he is very businesslike though and I would actually consider him quiet, but it is in there. He is sound but does have a old set bow (hence no more eventing), that was completely re-habbed and looks completely normal (no banana shape, no swelling).

I would put him at confirmed 2nd level now with protential to be a really nice ammy or young rider horse through PSG. I by no means think this is a GP horse, and would not market as such. So what are your thoughts???? Is this sellable to a dressage person even with his extra enthusiasm? Any issues with the old bow??? Also any idea what price range these are going for???? This is not a sales ad as he won't be for sale for a while, just trying to see what his options are.

caddym
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:10 PM
Since he is just starting haunches in then he is not a CONFIRMED 2nd level horse. (i think of confirmed as having shown at that level at a recognized dressage show with scores in the mid 60's).

The old bow wouldn't bother me. The playfullness I think is an asset. I like personality.

as far as real dressage marketability and price range it would totally depend on how good his gaits are. I'd need a video.

mjrtango93
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:38 PM
Sorry I put him at confirmed 2nd as I will get him out to some shows first before I sell him (hence why is is not for sale yet), and he will be doing 2nd, ready for 3rd when I start marketing, he has just started haunches in right now. I know that show records speak volumes, and to get money they need something under their belt. He has already been out at 1st with scores in high 60's. Glad to hear his playfulness is not to much of a concern, or the tendon. I will have to get a better video of movement sometime, as the video I have does not show the trot he has now. It took a while for him to get the strength in his back to really get the suspension that he is at this point still developing.

caddym
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:54 PM
the price ranges can be crazy.. I'd check out dressage daily's marketplace and see what comperable horses are offered at.

mjrtango93
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:02 PM
Thanks, I will take a look there.

caddym
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:37 PM
also, if he has clean straight flying changes that would be a real selling point

mbm
Aug. 10, 2009, 03:07 PM
honestly - if he isnt a registered WB then the price will decrease dramatically.

also the old bow - you will also lose a good percentage of potential buyers because of that. Dressage people, in general, like clean legs.

as for the spin.scoot - again you will lose a percentage of buyers because of that - he is not an "ammie horse" .

so you are left with a horse that is going to appeal to a very narrow percentage of riders...... so you will have to market accordingly.

Of course, you may put an ad out and sell him to the first person that shows up too! :)

but my guess would be less than 10k....

so a search on WB crosses to get an idea.....

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 10, 2009, 03:19 PM
Here's the catch, he can be silly when at home and has a bit of a buck and spin (nothing naughty or dangerous but he is playful), he is very businesslike though and I would actually consider him quiet, but it is in there. He is sound but does have a old set bow (hence no more eventing), that was completely re-habbed and looks completely normal (no banana shape, no swelling).

I would put him at confirmed 2nd level now with protential to be a really nice ammy or young rider horse through PSG.

I don't think there is a big market for a 2nd level ammie horse that has a buck and spin in him. Dressage ammies usually want easy, VERY easy. And QUIET.

mbm
Aug. 10, 2009, 03:22 PM
yeah, horses like this genearlly are sold as "project horses" and priced accordingly - no matter how talented (if they aren't registered WB) .

Bogey2
Aug. 10, 2009, 03:54 PM
mbm, some of us have actually bought nice horses that are not registered...for whatever reason. I think the buck/spin is more of an issue than being registered. I just saw a lovely upper level schoolmaster that has no registration papers. I don't care if a gelding does not have papers. I have also passed on buying some registered Warmbloods:lol:

mbm
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:03 PM
no no.... what i meant was - the non registration will be reflected in the price - did not mean to say that just because a horse is not registered they are no good....

as an example: i see many excellent, well trained TBs out there. yet they sell for minuscule amounts as compared to the exact same training in a WB. that is what i meant.

of course this is good for many of us who cant afford the top price of WBs.

Ambrey
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:17 PM
I think his price will depend a LOT on what his scores look like at 2nd level. JMO :)

EqTrainer
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:24 PM
Good scores at second level will negate his lack of papers - IF the OP has a breeding cert to prove who he is. If his breeding is heresay, with no proper documentation to back it up, then he is a grade horse and his price will be slightly less than a papered horse will all other issues comparable.

The bow is a problem. He will need to have stayed sound on it with NO reoccurences of any sort of issue for a significant period of time. If he has a crooked leg and that leg is bowed, or a funky foot on the bowed leg, expect to have more of a problem selling him. Be prepared to hand over all old ultrasound pictures and reports and if you don't have them, get them now as a baseline for comparison later. It will go a LONG WAY with a prepurchase vet/buyer if you have that.

The buck/spin? Get rid of it. Send him to a cowboy, do whatever it takes. But get rid of it. Be sure to mention to any prospective buyer that when he was young, that was his game of choice.

goeslikestink
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:29 PM
So I am an eventer for my sport of choice but have done pure dressage in the past on one of my previous horses through 4th level. I have a fabulous 7 year old now that is just not working out as an event horse and was wondering what dressage people thought of him. He is about 16.2hh, big bodied (I'm 6', long-legged and look good on him), ISH x Hanoverian, big mover with an amazing walk and canter, and the trot work gets more suspension everyday as he gets stronger. He already has confirmed leg-yields, shoulder in, started haunches in, started half pass, and has flying changes from jumping and it doing them now as dressage changes as well.

Here's the catch, he can be silly when at home and has a bit of a buck and spin (nothing naughty or dangerous but he is playful), he is very businesslike though and I would actually consider him quiet, but it is in there. He is sound but does have a old set bow (hence no more eventing), that was completely re-habbed and looks completely normal (no banana shape, no swelling).

I would put him at confirmed 2nd level now with protential to be a really nice ammy or young rider horse through PSG. I by no means think this is a GP horse, and would not market as such. So what are your thoughts???? Is this sellable to a dressage person even with his extra enthusiasm? Any issues with the old bow??? Also any idea what price range these are going for???? This is not a sales ad as he won't be for sale for a while, just trying to see what his options are.


he is not a novice horse he needs an exprienced rider to bring him on

so therefore not for and mustnt be for sale as a 1st horse to a novice rider
as hes naughty and unless they have the knowledge to correct his nappyness it wouldnt work
he must be sold as not a novice ride he also has wear and tear on him ie the bow so wouldnt be good for showing nor dressage as if he cant jump no more then how do you expect him to work on the flat with a stressed injury --

now as he naps this could be related to the pain in his leg as working him to much to soon
and injury still apparant so horse is telling you hes off and hurts still
an inkured tendon takes months to heal up can be up to 2 yrs sound like you outing the horse as hes not useful to you no more and looking for dressage owner but the horse wont do that as dressage also works the legs mussles ligaments and tendons

mjrtango93
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:35 PM
he is not a novice horse he needs an exprienced rider to bring him on

so therefore not for and mustnt be for sale as a 1st horse to a novice rider
as hes naughty and unless they have the knowledge to correc his nappyness it wouldnt work
he must be sold as not a novice ride

No worries there, he is not the type to ever be a novice ride, well maybe when he is 30 or so. Apparently eventers and dressage have a different view and expectation out of ammy horses though, which is good to know. As I had said there is nothing naughty about him, if he is hyper and the wind is blowing, or the dogs run up barking he'll throw in a buck, or he'll spin around if the drapes blow in the wind. He is also kept alot fitter now as an eventer then he ever would be as a dressage horse so a lot of that may go away with not being as "on the muscle".

mjrtango93
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:38 PM
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;4297294]The bow is a problem. He will need to have stayed sound on it with NO reoccurences of any sort of issue for a significant period of time. If he has a crooked leg and that leg is bowed, or a funky foot on the bowed leg, expect to have more of a problem selling him. Be prepared to hand over all old ultrasound pictures and reports and if you don't have them, get them now as a baseline for comparison later. It will go a LONG WAY with a prepurchase vet/buyer if you have that.[QUOTE]

I have all scans and am more then willing to have my vet talk to whomever wants to hear about it. The injury was not caused by any leg confirmation issues (he's completely straight legged, and pretty textbook perfect when it comes to that), and he has big, huge, amazing feet. Slightly low in the heal, but they can't all be perfect.

mbm
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:40 PM
in dressage a lot of the "ammies" out there are middle aged re-riders or new riders and when a horse is called " Ammy" horse they mean quiet and no spook, no buck and easy.

Just be honest and you will be okay. He actually sounds like a neat horse :) there are some of us that like horses with a bit of spunk :)

and the comments i made above are just based on researching the market over he last couple years....

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 10, 2009, 05:18 PM
Apparently eventers and dressage have a different view and expectation out of ammy horses though, which is good to know. .

Yes, at least, that has been my observation based on experience with both. I have seen perfectly competent ammie dressage riders nearly reduced to tears when trying a horse that was "too forward" for them, and by "too forward," I mean the horse did something barely approaching a working trot when asked to trot. Of course not all ammies are like that, but generally they want quiet and safe, no naughtiness.

Regarding value, just to give you an idea, I know of a gorgeous mare with very desirable and hard to obtain bloodlines that has an excellent FEI record (consistent wins and impressive scores at the most competitive shows through I-1) but is now only able to compete through second level to stay sound. Asking price is 15K, and that is a mare whose bloodlines alone could fetch that as a top broodie. And she is easy to ride.

slc2
Aug. 10, 2009, 06:02 PM
I think he would sell for around 10k around here, more if he shows really well at 2nd level or if he shows a little at 3rd that's better, especially if he gets a chance to get shown in a test that requires changes be done. Changes are worth at least 3,000 dollars if they are easy to get the horse to do on both sides, meaning if anyone can get up on him and get two changes without a lot of finagling and coaching and tears, it's worth at least 3k.

I don't think he would qualify for any All-Breed awards, unless there are award programs for part IS or part Hanoverian. That will put some buyers off. The old bow will scare some buyers off. The buck-spin would scare a LOT of riders off. Take it out of him. Get him less fit, punish him when he does it, I don't know what else you can do, except that a lot of horses do it less if they are more through and more on the bit and looser in the neck and back, that you can work on through training for more suppleness. It kind of depends on how bad he is about it and how easily he does it, eventers tend to be a lot less concerned about a little buck and a spook than an ammy dressage rider. I guarantee you, he will do it a lot more with a weaker, more timid rider who keeps him less worked down, which is most amateur riders.

quietann
Aug. 10, 2009, 07:04 PM
No worries there, he is not the type to ever be a novice ride, well maybe when he is 30 or so. Apparently eventers and dressage have a different view and expectation out of ammy horses though, which is good to know. As I had said there is nothing naughty about him, if he is hyper and the wind is blowing, or the dogs run up barking he'll throw in a buck, or he'll spin around if the drapes blow in the wind. He is also kept alot fitter now as an eventer then he ever would be as a dressage horse so a lot of that may go away with not being as "on the muscle".

A certain amount of bravery -- sometimes beyond a reasonable level -- goes with an eventing mindset :) That is for both rider and horse BTW!

Certainly my experience with my mare was that when I took her back from the Fearless Teen who was eventing her, she was super-fit and more than a little crazy. Over time, taken out of the eventing world and put into pure dressage training, she gained weight and her muscle bulk shifted, and in fact her entire shape changed. And she calmed down a *lot*. There are horses that just get high as a kite when jumped a lot.

That said, she can still be hot, and she still has a buck and a spook in her. If she's really, really upset she will pick up her front feet in a half-rear -- but will not go all the way up unless pressured beyond her ability to cope. I am 45 and a re-rider, and not the bravest person in the world, but I've gotten used to her -- and one of the good things is that because I am not the bravest, I'll get us out of a bad situation rather than try to "ride through" when she's threatening to rear, so she's never gone all the way up with me. I have no shattered pride if I have to back off a bit to let her get her brains back into her head.

That said, I *was* afraid to ride her when she was fresh off the eventing, and no, the average adult ammy would not put up with this sort of behavior, so her value as an ammy ride (already lowered by her being small, a mare, and an off-breed) is reduced. She would be worth more as an eventer, but I don't intend to sell her, ever.

And, *that* said, I've seen far worse behavior from some of the "ammy friendly" WBs of my acquaintance. Worse as in unpredictable; with my mare I usually have ample warning when she's getting wound up. It's all about matching horses to riders.

So... I think this horse may, with showing and more training, be more valuable than people think. *If* you could find a more typical adult ammy rider to take him out so he gets seen being ridden by someone a potential buyer sees as "like them", that may help.

Dune
Aug. 11, 2009, 11:51 AM
I just want to clarify the "ammy" thing. ;) You have "ammies" that are middle-aged, unfit, never did much of anything riders (think perpetual Training/1st level champions) that indeed *do* need a very quiet, not so forward horse. And then you have your "good ammies" or "serious ammies", who don't mind a bit of horseplay, have ridden the FEI levels, perhaps grew up doing jumpers/eventing that can handle the spin/buck/bolt you're speaking of.....HOWEVER, they are also going to want a horse that doesn't "top out" at PSG. The ever present dilemma of if the horse isn't so talented, then he needs to be quiet/easy, if he IS talented, then it doesn't really matter if he's quiet. The "in-between" horses are more difficult to place. :yes:

mjrtango93
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:06 PM
I just want to clarify the "ammy" thing. ;) You have "ammies" that are middle-aged, unfit, never did much of anything riders (think perpetual Training/1st level champions) that indeed *do* need a very quiet, not so forward horse. And then you have your "good ammies" or "serious ammies", who don't mind a bit of horseplay, have ridden the FEI levels, perhaps grew up doing jumpers/eventing that can handle the spin/buck/bolt you're speaking of.....HOWEVER, they are also going to want a horse that doesn't "top out" at PSG. The ever present dilemma of if the horse isn't so talented, then he needs to be quiet/easy, if he IS talented, then it doesn't really matter if he's quiet. The "in-between" horses are more difficult to place. :yes:

This is what I was starting to think. I don't think he is a pro ride by any means as he is not and will never be a GP horse in my opinion (who knows maybe he will surprise the pants off me), and he would need the good/serious ammie to be able to ride him I think, not the middle aged ammie that is perpetual T-1st as he is a forward thinking guy and we have 2 of those in the barn that I know would never be able to ride him. What do the juniors and such look for? Would he be suited for that possibly? Or are they looking for top horses from the start as well. He doesn't belong in the schoolmaster category either so perhaps I will just hold onto him for a while and see where he goes. I quite like him and wish I didn't need to sell him, but just don't think he will hold up to event at the top levels which is what I want.

mbm
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:17 PM
honestly - it is just very hard to sell a horse with so many "issues" in this day and age of so many nice horses with no issues being sold so "cheaply".

one thing that hasnt been discussed is what is your barn like? it is nice/fancy or more of a backyard place? this has a lot to do with price point too....

in any case - you probably can and will sell him - but not for what you think he is worth and it will take a while. see if a younger rider will take him on or a more well seated "ammie" .... but neither one will pay top $$ for a horse with so many issues.

if finances are an issue, i would list him at 7k with a very honest and open and , be open to taking half to an excellent home... if you are paying full board then the longer you hold on to him the less likely you will see any return on your investment.

good luck :)

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:20 PM
hey now, just because we are "straight" dressage people, doesn't mean we can't handle a little spunk! :lol: My TB is happy to give anyone a lesson on "spook 'n spin" any day. :winkgrin:

I would absolutely consider your horse as a dressage prospect and PSG would be plenty for me (and I'd venture to say for MOST ammies). I would have that bow looked at closely in a vet check, but my TB has an old bow from the track that has never caused any issues, so for me that's not a deal breaker at all.

Edited to add: I would want to see the actual level of training in Dressage reflected in the price, i.e. schooling some 2nd level movements does not mean 2nd level horse.

Ambrey
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:24 PM
I don't know, I know a lot of decent ammies without $50k to spend on a horse. Saying that "serious ammies" don't want a horse who tops out at PSG is assuming all "serious ammies" have the kind of money a GP prospect would bring.

But again, they are going to want a horse who is very competetive at 2nd level and already showing talent to move on from that. So if you get great 2nd level scores, you might have a lot of takers. If you score low 60s at 2nd, you're in the "won't want a bucking horse" range.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:25 PM
I just want to clarify the "ammy" thing. ;) You have "ammies" that are middle-aged, unfit, never did much of anything riders (think perpetual Training/1st level champions) that indeed *do* need a very quiet, not so forward horse. And then you have your "good ammies" or "serious ammies", who don't mind a bit of horseplay, have ridden the FEI levels, perhaps grew up doing jumpers/eventing that can handle the spin/buck/bolt you're speaking of.....HOWEVER, they are also going to want a horse that doesn't "top out" at PSG. The ever present dilemma of if the horse isn't so talented, then he needs to be quiet/easy, if he IS talented, then it doesn't really matter if he's quiet. The "in-between" horses are more difficult to place. :yes:

I agree, absolutely.

Valentina_32926
Aug. 12, 2009, 02:20 PM
Surprised no one else mentioned it (??) but price also depends where in the country you are located. Here i Florida there are a LOT of Tbs so price there is low unless they have SUPER experience.

I am an OLD adult ammie, the buck and spook if not big wouldn't bother me, but then again I wouldn't buy a 2nd level horse unless the price was low and the horses potential high (PSG is fine for me). But I'm sure there are other out there who would. Just fine another horse similar to your in age and experience, figure out an average price for a horse like that close to your area, then increase/decrease the price based on his assets/liabilities.

Best of luck. Sounds like a nice horse.

(I'd either buy another baby or an established FEI horse - but with this economy I'm not buying either, plus already have a third level mare).

mjrtango93
Aug. 12, 2009, 05:49 PM
Well luckily for me I am in CA, in a pretty affluent area, so I don't think he will go bottom basement pricing. I am also at a facility, not a backyard type setup, so even though we aren't dressage focused, still can get a horse going well, and show it to the best of his abilities to a prospective buyer. I think I will just get him showing really well at 2nd, maybe do a couple 3rd levels on him and see where we are at. I am also located in the middle of 3 dressage judges, so perhaps taking him for a clinic with them to get their impression would help.

Also the buck and spin is not a constant and very rarely even un-seating. He has bucked me off twice, but both times were during his rehab and trying to walk a 5 year old under saddle for 20 minutes in the middle of winter is bound to get explosive for anybody when they have been off several months. Like now, he just bucked for the first time under saddle in 3 weeks because the golf cart came up the road with the dogs barking so I don't think it will be a huge dealbreaker for people. Obviously there are several dressage people on this board that like something with a bit of spunk! Like I said its not naughty or mean, he's just young (he won't even technically be 7 until October)and exhuberant.

sid
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:38 PM
From what you've posted here, yes, I think you could sell as a "straight" dressage horse...to the right rider,provided that bow is really deemed over and done with.

A horse that has a little "nerve" (sensitive) is not a bad thing in dressage for the right rider. Probably not for the middle-aged "ammy" market, but surely for a brave and patient up and comer. Maybe not as an FEI contender, but if he has a good enough mind for the sport he might make someone a very good mount to come up the levels.

The other thing that is GOOD, is that because he has been competed in the 3-days, with all the excitement that can go with it, he's got "showtime" under his belt-- which can be a big plus for someone who would like to show and not worry about inexperience or have to go through THAT process as well. That's a BIG plus for many.

What one will pay is what someone thinks he is worth to them and for what they want to do.

cmdrcltr
Aug. 13, 2009, 09:06 PM
I just want to clarify the "ammy" thing. ;) You have "ammies" that are middle-aged, unfit, never did much of anything riders (think perpetual Training/1st level champions) that indeed *do* need a very quiet, not so forward horse. And then you have your "good ammies" or "serious ammies", who don't mind a bit of horseplay, have ridden the FEI levels, perhaps grew up doing jumpers/eventing that can handle the spin/buck/bolt you're speaking of.....HOWEVER, they are also going to want a horse that doesn't "top out" at PSG. The ever present dilemma of if the horse isn't so talented, then he needs to be quiet/easy, if he IS talented, then it doesn't really matter if he's quiet. The "in-between" horses are more difficult to place. :yes:

I am a "middle-aged, [somewhat] unfit, never did much of anything" rider if that also means that I haven't ridden beyond 1st level. And although I appreciate a quiet horse I can (and do) sit a spin/buck/bolt every now and then. And with the other obligations in my life I'm going to be happy if I ever get the scores I need at 1st 4 to do a musical freestyle. Not everyone wants to get beyond PSG. And not everyone who enjoys horses is financially able to buy that kind of horse anyway. Your horse sounds like one I'd look at if he was in New England and I was in the market.:)

quietann
Aug. 13, 2009, 11:31 PM
I am a "middle-aged, [somewhat] unfit, never did much of anything" rider if that also means that I haven't ridden beyond 1st level. And although I appreciate a quiet horse I can (and do) sit a spin/buck/bolt every now and then. And with the other obligations in my life I'm going to be happy if I ever get the scores I need at 1st 4 to do a musical freestyle. Not everyone wants to get beyond PSG. And not everyone who enjoys horses is financially able to buy that kind of horse anyway. Your horse sounds like one I'd look at if he was in New England and I was in the market.:)

Thank you for saying this; I am very much in the same position. I'm doing training level and going beyond that will totally depend on whether I am physically capable of sitting the trot on my quick-footed, bouncy little mare. I *like* my mare's spunk, I've ridden through some rather egregious behavior on her part (remember, this is the horse who had a tantrum in front of Linda Zang, occasionally starts a canter with a buck "just because she can", and gets judges' comments like "frisky" and "naughty"), and she's the one I want.

I'm also a "hobbyist" dressage rider, in that it's not the only thing we do, by far. Our best riding times happen when we're just going for a walk down the road. I do dressage for the training benefits and carryover into whatever else we might try. My goal is not to get to a certain level, but to go to whatever level we can get to happily, while not entering the pressure cooker of "competitive" dressage.