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View Full Version : Cross post from Sport horse breeding...I need her papers! Michael Gill wont give!



LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 10, 2009, 12:47 PM
.

spooky01
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:06 PM
I know someone that may be able to get them, what's the mare's name?

spooky01
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:25 PM
phone call has been made, she'll see what she can do :)

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:38 PM
THANK YOU. Immensely!!!!

lily04
Aug. 10, 2009, 04:52 PM
If you have a BOS you can get duplicates. You will need photos and a complete describtion, including all markings and cowlicks. It does cost $200.00. Check the Jockey Club site for requirements. You can find the original describtion at the JC.

Muleskick
Aug. 10, 2009, 10:25 PM
:mad:I'm having a hard time getting the papers for my OTTB mare.
The owner WAS Michael Gill. Apparently he will only release a PHOTO COPY of the papers.

What are my legal options?? I have the bill of sale. I want to get her inspected for AHS breeding. Cant do it with out the papers. NO WHERE on the bill of sale does it say NO PAPERS/NOT FOR BREEDING. All it says is not for slaughter.

No mention of pedigree. I'm pissed. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?Bueller?

AND I changed the ownership with the JC via interactive reg the DAY I bought her.

If you have the bill of sale signed by both go to Suffock to the racing office file your bill of sale with the stewards and pick up your papers from the identifier.

Laurierace
Aug. 10, 2009, 10:46 PM
If you have a BOS you can get duplicates. You will need photos and a complete describtion, including all markings and cowlicks. It does cost $200.00. Check the Jockey Club site for requirements. You can find the original describtion at the JC.

That only works out if the previous owner signs an affidavit swearing how the papers were lost or destroyed. Doesn't sound like that is likely to happen.

jengersnap
Aug. 11, 2009, 09:56 AM
Just curious, but who is the bill of sale from? If it's not Gill, even if you get the papers he's not likely to sign over the transfer. As Laurie alludes to, it sounds like a lost cause if he flat out says he won't give them as he's not going to sign them over either.

Laurierace
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:05 PM
I am surprised he is being so difficult. Are you sure that a copy of her papers along with her tattoo isn't good enough for whatever registry you are shooting for? I am sure this isn't the first time something like this has come up.

Acertainsmile
Aug. 11, 2009, 01:58 PM
I don't know if the JC has become more difficult lately, but I've sent in the proper pics along with a check and gotten duplicate papers with no problems. No bill of sale was asked for. My husband "misplaced" the originals, they did ask what happened and I gave them a little variation on the story.

With the one horse, his tattoo was completely unreadable (looked like Chinese, really).

BeverlyAStrauss
Aug. 11, 2009, 08:00 PM
from the rule book-
# A. If a Certificate of Foal Registration has been lost or destroyed, a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration may be issued by the Registry Office upon submission of the following:

* 1. A check or money order payable to The Jockey Club covering the prescribed fee (see Fee Schedule);
* 2. A set of four color photographs of the horse (front, both sides, and rear views) clearly showing the color and the markings (or lack of markings) on the head, legs and body;
* 3. A completed and signed Duplicate Certificate Form containing the written description of the markings on the horse, including the exact location of the head and neck cowlicks;
* 4. A notarized statement from the owner or his authorized agent describing the circumstances under which the Certificate of Foal Registration was lost or destroyed;
* 5. Proof of ownership of that specific horse (for example, a bill of sale or cancelled check including the name or pedigree of the horse, date of sale and the name of the new owner); and
* 6. Any further evidence and assurances as The Jockey Club may require, such as genetic typing and/or parentage verification.

# B. Except as expressly provided in this Rule 9, a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration will not be issued as long as the Certificate of Foal Registration is known to be in existence; provided however, in the event of a sheriff's (or similar) sale or under a non-appealable Court Order, a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration will be issued if the original Certificate of Foal Registration cannot be obtained from the previous owner only after a good faith effort to recover it is made by the seller and/or the new owner. In either case, the requirements of Rule 9(A) 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 must be met and an opinion must be submitted to The Jockey Club from an attorney or an official representative of the court, indicating that the sale (if applicable) was conducted in accordance with the laws of the state and providing such other information as The Jockey Club may request regarding the circumstances and validity of the sale or Court Order.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:01 AM
thanks, I knew all that :)

I am going to try one more time to get them the proper way, from the former owner. Otherwise I will just fork out the money and get dups from the JC, which should not be a problem since I am the owner of record.

Laurierace
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:03 AM
thanks, I knew all that :)

I am going to try one more time to get them the proper way, from the former owner. Otherwise I will just fork out the money and get dups from the JC, which should not be a problem since I am the owner of record.

Good luck with that. FYI when you commit fraud its not a good idea to announce that fact on the internet.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:19 AM
Uh, how is it fraud? Explain the situation and hope for the best? If I cant get them, so be it. I will mail them, with the money, the pics, the bill of sale and a letter explaining that I never recieved the papers and would like them. I am the owner of record with the Jockey Club, have the horse, have the bill of sale-if they will not issue me papers, then I obviously have no recourse and am proverbially screwed.

By saying "doing things the right way" I meant PROPERLY, ie, going through the track/trainer to get the papers instead of over his head. Believe me, I would rather not spend the money but what else can I do? Apparently this is common in the TB industry when a horse is sold.

Not for nothing, but in my line of work I require government clearance. Fraud would ruin my career.

Laurierace
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:21 AM
Ok before you waste your time then part of the process is an affidavit stating how the papers were lost or destroyed. They obviously were neither of those things so duplicates are not an option legally.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:33 AM
The JC wont reissue if the papers were not given during the sale?

Listen, I dont know if you are getting hot under the collar, and I dont mean to come across as anything other than curious and ignorant of the process. My gelding is an unpapered Morgan. All of this registery stuff is totally new to me, and perhaps I am leaning on my experience with cars and dogs too much.

In other words, I have no clue what I'm doing, how to get what I need/want and just want some valid advice on this. I wasnt aware of the rigamarole with getting papers. If she wasnt going to come with them, I never would have bought her. Thats my bad, since I emailed the seller and said "please have her coggins/reg papers ready when I get her".

She only handed me a coggins and said she didnt have the papers at her location. There was no explanation, but then again I didnt ask. I just figured I would call the track, they would say come get em (they did, then saw the owners/trainers name, and said they had to ask him first??).

And here we are.

Laurierace
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:40 AM
Ok sorry, I guess I assumed you read the post above outlining the procedures for obtaining duplicates. If you do read it you will see that you do not qualify under any of the scenarios listed therein. If it really is that big of a deal to you I would try small claim's court suing for the perceived difference in value for a papered broodmare vs. an unpapered one. If you win you can offer to accept the papers in lieu of payment. That will most likely get their attention. A judgement against them can be turned into the stewards and they will be unable to race until it is settled.

witherbee
Aug. 12, 2009, 10:50 AM
As for them not being given to you, I can see both sides of that. I sold a lovely 3 year old as a hunter and I did release his papers with a note in the sales contract that he was not to be raced (he was never raced and never meant to race - had been in professional HUNTER training). A few months later that person re-sold him to someone who is racing him. I'm following his career in case I need to scoop him back up.

The only true way to stop them from being raced again is to send the papers into the jockey club and they destroy them or whatever they do with them - it's basically like the horse is dead. I hate to do that because people like to have papers (I do too). It's very frustrating, but we've seen it multiple times, where even horses with known health issues have been raced after the buyer promised they were just going to breed them or pleasure ride them. One poor mare that had almost died from pneumonia and had a ton of lung damage was raced shortly after she was purchased, so I can see why some people turn in the papers or refuse to give them. Unfortunately, you should have been informed of that at the time of the purchase.

In your case, I would think you could contact the registry that you are trying to get her approved under and see if what you have is enough. I'm sure they've dealt with this before and can give you some advice. I'd also keep trying and see if you can talk to Mike Gill directly and just use sugar instead of vinegar IMO - if you really want her papers yu will have to persuade him. Ownership is generally not tracked in the JC (to my knowledge), it's usually on the papers only and at the race tracks for racing purposes.

Good luck!

jengersnap
Aug. 12, 2009, 11:13 AM
LBM, to relate it back to the dogs thing a little, selling a TB without it's papers is kind of like selling a purebred AKC dog "without pedigree". It's not illegal, and it stops the dog from being shown in breed shows. Same thing with TBs; it stops the horse from being raced. Appealing to the JC with a bill of sale that is not from the person of record who last has the foal papers (industry term for registration papers) and the cash is like a person who bought a pet quality non-registered puppy and is now trying to get the AKC to register it. Right or wrong it was Gill's rights as owner to transfer or not transfer the papers. Whoever you got the bill of sale from may have legal rights to sell you the horse because they bought or were given the horse by Gill or his authorized agent, but not the registration on the horse. Laurie's idea of small claims is probably the second choice best thing to do, after trying to appeal to Gill with a polite solid arguement as to why you expected the papers and registration as part of the sale. If your seller is in a habit of selling off his horses he might not like the implication that the horses are coming with papers the seller is making.

Witherbee, online transfer of ownership is doable for tracking purposes through an equineline account but it does not transfer registration. Therein lies the rub; the JC will know you have the horse by this purpose and should they ever want to mail you for some reason associated with that they could, but this is not a transfer of registration and does not entitle the new owner to the registration either. As you recalled correctly, to transfer registration the papers have to be signed over by the current owner to the new owner right on the second page.

DiablosHalo
Aug. 12, 2009, 11:31 AM
Be very careful of someone "getting the papers" from the ID office without Gills consent (if they are still in his folder). If he throws a fit, the person who signed them out can face the stewards, fined, or ruled off. The only person that can withdrawl papers are the owner and trainer on record. Anyone else can get into hot water- not sure if that favor is worth their license.... just a thought! :)

Good luck!

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 12, 2009, 12:04 PM
Thank you for the kind words. I'll call Suffolk and explain the plight...I did email the seller (middleman) and tell her I want to get the mare Hanovarian approved...I'm kicking myself for NOT requiring the papers in the first place.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 12, 2009, 12:30 PM
Gotcha on the dog thing Jenger...

Ho-hum...I guess I will try to contact the seller and have her forward the request to Gill and the trainer, and hope to get someplace with it that way.

The seller never *claimed* to have the papers, she just said that she didnt have them at her place when I asked for them the day I picked the mare up. She didnt say I COULDNT get them either. I have truly nothing bad to say about her. She was very honest, answered every question my trainer and I had and the barn was just lovely and her horses happy and healthy. She's in a shit spot as well...having to deal with me (LOL) and go back and forth with the trainer. She probably just called the trainer, said I wanted them and he probably said to the racing office "Just mail her a copy..." to shut me up. Most likely Gill doesnt even KNOW whats going on in the first place, since he has a ton of horses and doesnt generally bother...

Does anyone else on this board have a Gill horse? If so can you let me know of YOU got papers???

Las Olas
Aug. 12, 2009, 04:30 PM
See Bev's post #13. Toward the bottom, it explains how to obtain duplicate papers if the previous owner won't release them. You can use your BOS, but when I worked for The Jockey Club, they usually required it be a notorized BOS.

I have also had the track release papers to me if I showed them the BOS and never had any problems. Your biggest problem with that route would be that you didn't receive the horse directly from Gill.

If you haven't called TJC, I'd do so and see what they have to say. Tell them you want to file for new papers using the rule # that Bev posted. Good luck.

Vitriolic
Aug. 13, 2009, 12:23 AM
To one who has no intention of racing a horse, this whole scenario obviously seems bizarre. However, to an owner/trainer/breeder, people lie. A vet bought a homebred gelding from us unraced. This slow fellow, trained by a far more competent individual than the buyer, was not to devalue his stellar ;) family by displaying his agonizing lack of ability. The vet wanted a children's hunter prospect. While this guy was not exactly attractive, he was priced accordingly. I believe somewhere in the low hundreds figure-- just above the price at which he was at risk for a bad fate. It wasn't his fault he looked nothing like his parents, and couldn't run like his siblings. He was very sweet, well bred, well broke, and we needed to cut our losses which were likely in the $30,000 range by this point. Less than three weeks after the sale (and our final work on him), he shows up in the entries and gets beaten 35 lengths.

It is a$$hats like these buyers who think they will make 10 X their money in a month, that cause owners to "lose" papers. I have in my filing cabinet, the papers of a mare never owned by us, (I just noticed them) who has produced a few stakes winners time zones away. I have likely had them since she was 3, about 15 years. It usually doesn't matter. From the tattoo on her lip, you have her identity, age, pedigree, race record, and need nothing more. At least in the TB world. Good luck with your new horse. I am just trying to explain why people don't want to hand over the papers. :)

BeverlyAStrauss
Aug. 13, 2009, 10:08 AM
One of our adoptees still had his papers in the racing office in MD- the adopter just wanted to have them (he was never gonna race again -she just wanted a pet and he had a fx'd sesamoid behind) She called Horse ID, explained herself, they called the trainer and he authorized their release- ID mailed them asap.

I agree, chances are that Mr Gill is not at all aware of the situation or even the location of the papers- who sent you the photocopy? Did they just happen to have the photocopy or did they make it from the papers themselves?

I dont understand why these breed registries need to see the actual document- these TBs are tattooed and bloodtyped and better identified than any of their warmbloods or any other breed for that matter except maybe standardbreds- but I know they do, we have gone through this before with some of our adoptees.

lily04
Aug. 13, 2009, 01:23 PM
It's too bad The Jockey Club dosn't do two different sets of papers for pedigree and racing like the Arabians do. An Arabian has to have a seperate racing certificate to race.

rcloisonne
Aug. 13, 2009, 05:41 PM
I dont understand why these breed registries need to see the actual document- these TBs are tattooed and bloodtyped and better identified than any of their warmbloods or any other breed for that matter except maybe standardbreds- but I know they do, we have gone through this before with some of our adoptees.
Not all purebred TB's are lip tattooed and even those that are, the tattoo can often be difficult to read. Not fool proof identification, IMHO. And how would a warmblood registry go about confirming the identification of a horse based on a tattoo anyway?

Most breed associations today require all foals have their DNA on file and parentage verified as a condition of registration. Arab papers also include very detailed drawings of any markings. Those that are freeze branded have their registration number permanently inscribed on their necks and the freeze brand documented on the registration papers. It would be extremely difficult to pass one horse off as another unless it was a clone (and even then, a clone's markings are rarely, if ever, identical).

Bottom line is the vast majority of warmblood registries require the owner of any TB or Arab horse being considered for breeding inspection and approval have their registration papers in hand. Some even want an official copy of the TB's race record, if it raced. Might not seem necessary or make sense to you or others in the racing world but there are rules and regulations TJC employs that make little sense to people with other breeds (such as mandatory live cover). You just have to go along with what ever rules a particular registry has if you want to play the game.

I sincerely hope the OP gets her mare's papers.

chaltagor
Aug. 13, 2009, 09:41 PM
How do you find who was the last recorded owner? Will TJC give this information? And how do you find which track has the papers?

DickHertz
Aug. 13, 2009, 09:49 PM
How do you find who was the last recorded owner? Will TJC give this information? And how do you find which track has the papers?

Pull the most recent PP's, owner and last track raced at are listed.

jengersnap
Aug. 13, 2009, 09:50 PM
How do you find who was the last recorded owner? Will TJC give this information? And how do you find which track has the papers?

Most reporting sources, such as Brisnet, will list the owner(s) on PP reports and the likes.

There is no guarantee a track will have the papers. Only that many get left behind in the office because the horse leaves the track and no one bothers to sign the papers out.

CSSporthorses
Aug. 14, 2009, 07:26 AM
I acquired a mare from Penn with a fresh displaced slab fracture. I knew talking to the owner/trainer that the papers were in Philly not Penn and by the time I would be at Penn, he wouldn't have a chance to go down there as she was the only horse he raced at Philly. He told me when I got there he'd call horse ID and arrange the transfer of the papers. It all made me very uncomfortable, but the mare needed me and I went ahead with it. She was loaded and waiting and I reminded him that we needed to call horse ID before I left. We took care of it right then. The person in charge of Horse ID was not there, but he spoke to someone else he knew in the Stewards office. He spoke with them then I spoke with them to give them my information. With that done, we left and I simply hoped for the best. I really didn't expect to see them. About 3 days later her papers arrived in the mail, in a Philadelphia Park envelope listed as Horse ID. I don't know Michael Gill but I have heard a few things about him. I simply wish you luck at this point. Try to get up with him, explain that you will not be racing her you are breeding her. Assure him you have the mare's best interest at heart, but you need her papers. Kill him with kindness. If that doesn't get you anywhere, then call Horse ID at the track where the papers are, explain the situation (you do have a bill of sale etc), be very nice to them as they are your last ditch effort, and maybe they can help you out by being the middle man and simply getting the ok from Gill to release and they'll mail them your way. I know its frustrating, I've been there before.

Laurel&HollyFarm
Aug. 14, 2009, 10:13 AM
This won't help you now but perhaps could help others. When we purchased our thoroughbred mare we knew we would need the papers to breed her. The seller's agent who had been very difficult to deal with assured me that she had the papers. When we went to pick the mare up, the papers were still with the seller in West Virginia. So we paid a $1,000 less and took her home. Then paid the balance when the papers arrived. As it turns out if we had not done that we would probably never have seen the papers.

We thought it was odd that the agent was always away from home and her daughter worked with us whenever we went to see the horse. Yet she was always available by phone. Actually she was on house arrest for selling horses she had no right to sell :eek:. Luckily our mare did not fall into that catagory and we got the papers.

Good luck, I hope you get your papers.

CANTER NE Horse Welfare
Aug. 14, 2009, 04:05 PM
private message sent to you

Trevelyan96
Aug. 14, 2009, 04:52 PM
I always specifically state in the sales contract that the horse be delivered WITH papers, and if the horse arrives without papers, he is shpped back at sellers expense and the deposit is fully refundable. Never once had a problem, all 3 of the TB's I bought came with their papers, one of them right off the backside. Even though it doesn't matter in the case of my geldings, its still a formality I insist upon, because although they can't be bred, the can still be raced, and I want to be sure I have the option of destroying those papers if they have to be sold, and notifying the JC that they are sold 'without pedigree'.

Many TB owners and trainers insist on selling the horses 'without pedigree' if they don't want them raced or bred. Those are the cases where the JC is notified and they destroy the papers. When buying an OTTB, if you want the papers, its extremely important to be sure the seller/agent actually HAS the papers and have a contract that has a specific deadline as to when those papers are to be delivered and the legal remedies the buyer can take if the papers are not delivered.

The reason they are so adamant about not releasing duplicate papers is that it would open the door for serious breeding/racing fraud. After all, how many plain bay TB foals are born every year?

Laurierace
Aug. 14, 2009, 04:59 PM
I
The reason they are so adamant about not releasing duplicate papers is that it would open the door for serious breeding/racing fraud. After all, how many plain bay TB foals are born every year?

Absolute BS. They register foals only after DNA testing verifies they are who they are supposed to be. They never even look at the registration papers.

KBEquine
Aug. 14, 2009, 10:44 PM
Does anyone else on this board have a Gill horse? If so can you let me know of YOU got papers???


Yes - but he didn't come directly from Gill. Got claimed FROM Gill . . . so the papers came with him.

I really think if Gill or his trainer knew the reason you need the "real" papers, you might get them. The prior owner retains the papers in the race world mostly to prevent someone else racing the horse. In the TB world, the subsequent owner can still breed the mare & register & sell the foals.

The fact you're planning to breed her - especially outside the TB world - would as a practical matter prevent her return to racing, so giving you the papers would serve the purpose (of making sure she isn't raced) too.

tbracer65
Aug. 16, 2009, 01:26 PM
Let me see what I can do --- will make a few phone calls tonight & try & explain the situation. I'll PM you afterwards.....

Linny
Aug. 16, 2009, 02:18 PM
As for them not being given to you, I can see both sides of that. I sold a lovely 3 year old as a hunter and I did release his papers with a note in the sales contract that he was not to be raced (he was never raced and never meant to race - had been in professional HUNTER training). A few months later that person re-sold him to someone who is racing him. I'm following his career in case I need to scoop him back up.

The only true way to stop them from being raced again is to send the papers into the jockey club and they destroy them or whatever they do with them - it's basically like the horse is dead. I hate to do that because people like to have papers (I do too). It's very frustrating, but we've seen it multiple times, where even horses with known health issues have been raced after the buyer promised they were just going to breed them or pleasure ride them. One poor mare that had almost died from pneumonia and had a ton of lung damage was raced shortly after she was purchased, so I can see why some people turn in the papers or refuse to give them. Unfortunately, you should have been informed of that at the time of the purchase.

In your case, I would think you could contact the registry that you are trying to get her approved under and see if what you have is enough. I'm sure they've dealt with this before and can give you some advice. I'd also keep trying and see if you can talk to Mike Gill directly and just use sugar instead of vinegar IMO - if you really want her papers yu will have to persuade him. Ownership is generally not tracked in the JC (to my knowledge), it's usually on the papers only and at the race tracks for racing purposes.

Good luck!

This is the classic case of why I think that the JC should accept the status "retired" or "non-racing purposes" at the request of any owner. the change would be permanent and ANY subsequent owner would be aware of the status upun seeing the papers. Tracks would be aware of the status should such a horse pop up in entries and their name inputted for racing.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 17, 2009, 09:01 AM
Trevelyn...

Like I mentioned, (maybe in breeding forum?) this OTTB thing is totally new to me and I was under the assumption that they went WITH the horse...stupid me...my other horse is a grade morgan, so all i ever needed was a bill of sale. Looking back, I SHOULD have told her that I wouldnt accept the mare with out the papers.

I'll be writing a letter to Michael Gill c/o Vitali in regards to the mare, certified, sent to the track. With a full explanation.

The agent requested that I "email or write her a letter" stating that the horse is loved and well cared for, so the track can see it to prove she didnt go to slaughter.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 09:12 AM
This is the classic case of why I think that the JC should accept the status "retired" or "non-racing purposes" at the request of any owner. the change would be permanent and ANY subsequent owner would be aware of the status upun seeing the papers. Tracks would be aware of the status should such a horse pop up in entries and their name inputted for racing.

Absolutely! That would be so easy and practical...

SEPowell
Aug. 17, 2009, 09:51 AM
This is the classic case of why I think that the JC should accept the status "retired" or "non-racing purposes" at the request of any owner. the change would be permanent and ANY subsequent owner would be aware of the status upun seeing the papers. Tracks would be aware of the status should such a horse pop up in entries and their name inputted for racing.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but anyway, here goes; because these horses change hands so many times I don't think one owner should have that much power over the horse's racing future. I say this because I've seen many many tbs that were run 6 times as three year olds, did nothing and were sent down the road. Many of these guys just aren't race horses, but just as many have talent they can't use because they aren't fed enough, have no top line and usually their toes are too long. There are also those who need a few years to mature but weren't lucky enough to end up with a trainer willing to give them the time they need.

Once I bought a lovely mare at New Holland PA who turned out to have a half brother who was winning stakes. She was nicely bred and had super conformation and would have been a good choice as a racing broodmare. The guy who shipped her to the sale said the owner would probably give me the papers and gave me his phone number. When I called him and asked him about them he said no because he "didn't want anyone else to benefit from his hard work". Hard work :confused: He'd owned her approx one year, she slipped her foal and he sent her to New Holland. I couldn't believe it. Of course it didn't really matter because the foal could still be registered, but what if she'd been a candidate for a steeplechase career (she had the breeding for it)? Should that owner have had the power to determine her racing future?

I know that there are many excellent trainers whose judgement I would want to honor if he or she said the horse's racing career was over, but I'm learning that in many cases their judgement needs to be double checked.

SleepyFox
Aug. 17, 2009, 10:10 AM
The agent requested that I "email or write her a letter" stating that the horse is loved and well cared for, so the track can see it to prove she didnt go to slaughter.

Just for clarification, the track has nothing to do with this.

Chances are Gill, et. al. have no idea the reason you need the papers and if they knew, the most likely would let you have them. Ask the person you bought her from for the trainer's phone number and call him directly and ask if you can pick up the papers from the identifier. The identifier is on the frontside by the racing office and you don't need a license to go to that office. But, you do have to sign the folder when you take out papers.

Gill's camp may very well have a policy to hold papers to keep his rejects from starting again. But, honestly, for us racehorse people, papers just aren't a big deal and they aren't something that usually changes hands at the actual time of sale. We keep papers in the identifier's office until a horse is actually sold just in case we want to run the horse again. And, honestly, it's kind of a pain in the butt to remember to pick up papers - especially on a horse that you just sold for pennies on the dollar and you'd really like to forget you ever had - so a lot of times papers just sit in the folder. So, it's also likely that they just aren't viewing your request as all that important.


I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but anyway, here goes; because these horses change hands so many times I don't think one owner should have that much power over the horse's racing future.

I agree.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 02:39 PM
Good Lord, this is insane. I don't think a former owner should be able to hold papers hostage, on the infinitesimal chance that the horse might race again.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 17, 2009, 03:43 PM
Good Lord, this is insane. I don't think a former owner should be able to hold papers hostage, on the infinitesimal chance that the horse might race again.

I concure!!!

Well, I wrote a very nice letter to the owner c/o the trainer explaining the plight, and how I need the papers for AHS approval...that she wont be raced, etc etc...and could he please help me out so I dont need to pay $$$ to get dups...sent it off certified to Suffolk today. Fingers crossed that I get a phone call to get em or that they show up in my mail box...

Barnfairy
Aug. 17, 2009, 03:54 PM
Good Lord, this is insane. I don't think a former owner should be able to hold papers hostage, on the infinitesimal chance that the horse might race again.You wouldn't feel that way if you were in the shoes of someone who sold a TB and handed over papers in good faith that he would be retired, only to find that he made his way back to the track.

While I do not for one second think that is the case here (good luck to you LittleblackMorgan, and I do mean that genuinely), it is not as infinitesimal as some might think that "retired" TBs find themselves back on the track again.

People can be deceptive bold faced liars, looking to pick up a horse on the cheap and run it back at a crappy fair circuit or the like under the ruse of offering a retirement / riding horse home. Other times what seemed a good home doesn't work out (lost job or what have you) and the horse changes hands... it happens.

Also take into account that many times former owners don't want mares used for breeding purposes for racing.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 04:03 PM
You wouldn't feel that way if you were in the shoes of someone who sold a TB and handed over papers in good faith that he would be retired, only to find that he made his way back to the track.

Also take into account that many times former owners don't want mares used for breeding purposes for racing.

Sorry, but it seems a little hard to believe that a TB sold to a non-racing person would end up racing again... in any case, if the owner is that worried, they should put a buy-back clause into the contract.

If the owners are so worried about these horses, they should retire the horses themselves, or be happy that they are getting a second chance. It seems silly that a "what if" that has a slender chance is dictating this whole state of affairs. That's why a "not for racing" stamp could be very useful.

Why wouldn't former owners want mares used for breeding purposes for racing anyway?

DickHertz
Aug. 17, 2009, 04:16 PM
I retired a horse to a breeder only to have the horse show up on the PP's six months later. Horse was a complete cripple. What Barnfairy says can happen.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 17, 2009, 04:18 PM
I think she means that if I sold the horse, someone along the line after me may try to race her. I mean, if these people took the time to actually take CARE of the mare, she'd still be winning. No doubt in my mind. She isnt bald anymore, put on 100lbs and blew out her absesses.

Actually, I cant imagine her being hopped up enough to run in the first place. She's actually a plug LOL. At her most awake she moseys!

Not for nothing but I have it in writing about the not racing. And I think some one who OWNED the horse wouldnt want me to breed her and get some fabulous horse that ran like hell...I did ask the agent why they didnt keep her for breeding...with close to 200k in earnings...she said some do some dont...unless the mare's ovaries are "nuggets" (vet's words, LOL), she's breedable...from my reading I guess Gill isnt in the breeding sector? More so the claiming business...

The horse is not sound right now. Granted it has been only a month, but everyday is a new injury or issue...she had a rainrot BAD, she was half starved...she had a corn...she was tying up last week in the right hind...my vet said no way will I ever hunt her...I bought her fully understanding that OTTBs have a bunch of issues sometimes, and especially a mare who raced for 6 years. I KNEW that was possible. But she got me in the heart and I bought her...she deserves a CHANCE at something...anything...I wont "get rid" of her...If she cant be bred, I will keep her for a year, rehab her and get her confident w/t/c and she will find her way (with my help, LOL) to a girl who would love her...

Its just a shame that a horse with such HEART and bloodlines to boot-was mistreated in such a way. Just trying to do right by her!

Barnfairy
Aug. 17, 2009, 04:27 PM
Sorry, but it seems a little hard to believe that a TB sold to a non-racing person would end up racing again... in any case, if the owner is that worried, they should put a buy-back clause into the contract.

If the owners are so worried about these horses, they should retire the horses themselves, or be happy that they are getting a second chance. It seems silly that a "what if" that has a slender chance is dictating this whole state of affairs. That's why a "not for racing" stamp could be very useful.

Why wouldn't former owners want mares used for breeding purposes for racing anyway?It does happen sometimes, because of the scenarios I presented earlier. You can never ensure what happens to a horse once it is out of your hands --I know owners who do keep their retired horses for that very reason-- but it's just not practical to think that no one will ever sell a horse, be it a racehorse owner or a riding horse owner.

Marking papers as "not to race" has been proven not to work. Same goes for buy-back clauses. It comes down to integrity --some people have it, others don't.

Mares at the end of their racing careers, sometimes very nice ones even, may be given away or sold at a fraction of what their value once was at the yearling sale usually because they need the horse gone quickly. Some don't want to take the chance that someone will make money through the offspring either on the track or at the sales from a mare that was sold cheap with the intention that she would be somebody's trail buddy. I'm not taking a stance either way on that -- just sayin' that's the way some folks think.

DickHertz
Aug. 17, 2009, 04:30 PM
Another scenario I've seen.

Horse retired to show person

Horse is too much for show person in 2nd career

Different person at show person's public barn knows a friend who trains horses and thinks it would be neat to see him breeze on the racetrack

Trainer takes horse to breeze and does well

Horse races and runs dead last

Ajierene
Aug. 17, 2009, 05:05 PM
When I first starting working with my riding instructor, I hated the thoroughbred racing industry.

Why?

Well, all through high school I rode at a barn where the wife did the riding lesson thing and the husband did the horse racing thing. The inject and run the mare until she has multiple chips in her knees then retire her to breed her to a no good stallion (because the fee was cheap) and try to run the tiny (first foal, filly about 15HH, second a colt about 14.2HH-out of a 15.2HH mare and stallion of about the same height) foals. The filly refused to break out of the trot at the track, though she would run at home. We think her mom had a talk with her.... The son, hunter pleasure horse.

Another gelding he got in a claims race and injected him with some 'vitamins', horse had a reaction and died.

He had a few others, some with some actual low level talent, some which got questionable care/training.

He also had his eye on every thoroughbred that came across his sights and thoroughbreds came straight from the track to find new careers at his place. Some were obviously not fast, some he tried to convince the owners or former owners that they should get another shot at the track. I do not believe he ever got the papers for these horses. They either were never transferred (for the ones that ended up being lesson horses) or they went to the new owners (once the horses were sold to private owners). People that came to the place to board their horses were subject to questions as to whether they ever thought of racing their thoroughbred.

Then I met my current riding instructor and got an education on the fact that my experience is from the 'seedy' and less common side of thoroughbred racing. While it is not as common, it is around enough that race horse owners trying to do right by their horses are reluctant to transfer papers.

My riding instructor at one time worked with a trainer that would sell his horses to her for a dollar because he knew she would find a riding/pleasure home for the horses, which would likely be a forever home and never be a racing home.

Christa P
Aug. 17, 2009, 05:40 PM
Another point is that AFAIK the JC doesn't require papers to register the foals, so for TB breeding as long as you know who the mare is her foals can be registered with the JC and raced even if you don't have the papers. The problem here is that a WB registry requires the original papers and the TB trainers might not fully realize this, hence causing the problem.

Christa

SleepyFox
Aug. 17, 2009, 06:15 PM
I mean, if these people took the time to actually take CARE of the mare, she'd still be winning. No doubt in my mind. She isnt bald anymore, put on 100lbs and blew out her absesses.

Its just a shame that a horse with such HEART and bloodlines to boot-was mistreated in such a way. Just trying to do right by her!

LBM, please forgive my editing of your post... but after comments like those that I've copied - if I were in possession of the mare's papers, I would seriously think twice about giving them to you. In addition, causing the commotion of making someone at the track sign for your letter and then hunt down Gill or his representative (when you could have simply called the trainer) is not going to make you any friends.

I understand you need the papers for your intended use. But, like I've said before, it is commonplace for retiring TBs to be sold w/o papers. Even when we sell youngstock and horses actively racing, the papers seldom physically trade hands with the horse. Racehorse people are notoriously nonchalant about foal papers and this is difficult for show people to understand.


Actually, I cant imagine her being hopped up enough to run in the first place. She's actually a plug LOL. At her most awake she moseys!

Contrary to popular belief, the calm ones generally make the best runners.


I did ask the agent why they didnt keep her for breeding...with close to 200k in earnings...she said some do some dont...unless the mare's ovaries are "nuggets" (vet's words, LOL), she's breedable...from my reading I guess Gill isnt in the breeding sector? More so the claiming business...

If she had true broodmare value, I am certain she would have been sold through a different venue (a sale, Starquine, etc.)

I do feel for you and sincerely hope you can get your papers. I've sold a few mares to sporthorse breeders and was surprised to learn that they needed the physical papers. But, if it hadn't been explained to me, it never would have crossed my mind how important it was.

However, my advice to you is to ignore the comments you read about Gill on this BB and realize you are dealing with one of the largest and most successful barns in the country and approach this situation with that in mind. Good luck.

Barnfairy
Aug. 17, 2009, 06:53 PM
SleepyFox, I love your signature. I love that horses race in French in Louisiana. Well, that they break from the gate in French anyway. :lol:

Back to the topic at hand, sort of...

While as far as I know you don't need the mare's papers to register the foal, it does say the following in the Jockey Club rule book (http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#fourteen):


18. SOLD WITHOUT PEDIGREE

A. Any owner who desires a horse no longer to be considered a Thoroughbred for racing or breeding purposes must promptly surrender the Certificate of Foal Registration to The Jockey Club within 60 days after the date of sale with an accompanying notation that the horse was transferred or sold "without pedigree." The notation must be signed by the owner or authorized agent and indicate the date of disposition. In the event the owner or authorized agent surrenders the Certificate of Foal Registration to The Jockey Club in the above manner more than 60 days after the date of transfer or sale, then the new owner or transferee must also submit a statement that the horse was purchased or received without pedigree.
B. Upon receipt in The Jockey Club Registry Office, the respective Certificate of Foal Registration will be cancelled. Once the registration is cancelled, the horse cannot be reinstated into the registry, and a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration will not be issued.
C. Notations upon a Certificate of Foal Registration which do not clearly indicate transferred or sold without pedigree, including notations such as "not to be raced," shall not result in cancellation of the Certificate of Foal Registration. Such notations could be regarded as defacing the Certificate of Foal Registration. Submission to The Jockey Club of any such defaced Certificate of Foal Registration may cause a Corrected Certificate of Foal Registration to be issued.(emphasis in bolding and text color mine)

So I gather if the papers were actually properly returned to the JC on a TB mare, you would not be able to register her foal as a TB.

Laurierace
Aug. 17, 2009, 07:07 PM
SleepyFox, I love your signature. I love that horses race in French in Louisiana. Well, that they break from the gate in French anyway. :lol:

Back to the topic at hand, sort of...

While as far as I know you don't need the mare's papers to register the foal, it does say the following in the Jockey Club rule book (http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#fourteen):

(emphasis in bolding and text color mine)

So I gather if the papers were actually properly returned to the JC on a TB mare, you would not be able to register her foal as a TB.

That is correct. It is called sold without pedigree, its almost like the horse didn't exist. That is what TRF and many other organizations do with their papers.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 07:15 PM
It does happen sometimes, because of the scenarios I presented earlier. You can never ensure what happens to a horse once it is out of your hands --I know owners who do keep their retired horses for that very reason-- but it's just not practical to think that no one will ever sell a horse, be it a racehorse owner or a riding horse owner.

Marking papers as "not to race" has been proven not to work. Same goes for buy-back clauses. It comes down to integrity --some people have it, others don't.

Mares at the end of their racing careers, sometimes very nice ones even, may be given away or sold at a fraction of what their value once was at the yearling sale usually because they need the horse gone quickly. Some don't want to take the chance that someone will make money through the offspring either on the track or at the sales from a mare that was sold cheap with the intention that she would be somebody's trail buddy. I'm not taking a stance either way on that -- just sayin' that's the way some folks think.

The papers should go to the new owner once the horse is sold. If they won't turn over the papers the JC should fine them and issue papers to the new owners. Some of these mares may prove to be valuable as sportshorse dams.

On the other hand, I think warmblood registries should accept copies of papers (or a fax from the JC) and tatooes, considering these nutty JC rules. If the warmblood registries did that then the papers would pretty much become a moot point.

Barnfairy
Aug. 17, 2009, 07:23 PM
Please see my previous post about Jockey Club rules regarding "sold without pedigree."

It is the responsibility of the buyer, not the Jockey Club, to obtain papers during the sale if that is of importance regarding intended use of the horse.

Too bad DNA ID is not sufficient for warmblood registries.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 07:26 PM
I did and don't think it's right that a former owner should be able to control breeding rights.

Can a horse's parentage be verified by DNA analysis in a instance where the dam and sire are no longer alive? Are any records kept?

Barnfairy
Aug. 17, 2009, 07:34 PM
I did and don't think it's right that a former owner should be able to control breeding rights.

Can a horse's parentage be verified by DNA analysis in a instance where the dam and sire are no longer alive? Are any records kept?

On the first point, the Jockey Club disagrees with you, and good luck to anyone who wishes to change JC rules. :lol:

I don't know the extent of records kept, but I do know all JC TBs are DNA typed as part of registration for verification purposes.

DickHertz
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:21 PM
However, my advice to you is to ignore the comments you read about Gill on this BB and realize you are dealing with one of the largest and most successful barns in the country and approach this situation with that in mind. Good luck.

I would say that successful is a bit kind. The operation is estimated to have lost close to a half million this year and that is only because they've improved since Cole Norman joined the payroll at Elk Creek. A stable who wins a lot of races does not necessarily mean they're successful.

On the Farm
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:32 PM
I did and don't think it's right that a former owner should be able to control breeding rights.

Can a horse's parentage be verified by DNA analysis in a instance where the dam and sire are no longer alive? Are any records kept?

The previous owner is not controlling any breeding rights at all. You can breed this mare to whichever stallion you can make a deal on.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:36 PM
On the first point, the Jockey Club disagrees with you, and good luck to anyone who wishes to change JC rules. :lol:

I don't know the extent of records kept, but I do know all JC TBs are DNA typed as part of registration for verification purposes.

Yeah I know, JC is very unhelpful when it comes to the sportshorse world. Which is rather short-sighted.

Personally, I think tatoo or copies of papers and DNA typing should be sufficient for the warmblood registries too.

The whole point of this thread is that the seller withholds the papers, the buyer can't do anything about it, no matter what the buyer's intent!

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:36 PM
The previous owner is not controlling any breeding rights at all. You can breed this mare to whichever stallion you can make a deal on.

If it affects foal registration this is affecting breeding rights.

On the Farm
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:40 PM
Sorry, but it seems a little hard to believe that a TB sold to a non-racing person would end up racing again... in any case, if the owner is that worried, they should put a buy-back clause into the contract.

If the owners are so worried about these horses, they should retire the horses themselves, or be happy that they are getting a second chance. It seems silly that a "what if" that has a slender chance is dictating this whole state of affairs. That's why a "not for racing" stamp could be very useful.

Why wouldn't former owners want mares used for breeding purposes for racing anyway?

One of the most viscious (to the point of libel) threads on the COTH forums revolved around Phantom On Tour, who failed at stallion service, was gelded, sold to some schmuck show trainer in CT with the promise to retrain him, who instead sold him to a race trainer at Charlestown.

Pronzini
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:41 PM
We're all engaging in speculation and maybe it's a problem solved by being practical--after page after page, it is still not clear to me: Who did you buy the horse from? Who actually owned the horse when you bought her? Was the lady really acting as agent for Gill or was she the seller with a story? Because it just shouldn't be this hard unless something is up.

Typically these horses are giveaways and papers don't follow unless they are requested for all the reasons everyone has said ad nauseum in this thread.

I hate to say this but have you looked at the tattoo? You sure its the horse that you bought, right? BTW the so called agent seller whatever she is should be able to pull the papers out of the racing office (if that is where they are--that part is not even really clear). If she's not willing and she can't give you a reason, serious bells would go off with me.

Pronzini
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:51 PM
One of the most viscious (to the point of libel) threads on the COTH forums revolved around Phantom On Tour, who failed at stallion service, was gelded, sold to some schmuck show trainer in CT with the promise to retrain him, who instead sold him to a race trainer at Charlestown.

Just yesterday a friend of mine came up to me at the barn very upset because a horse he retired from racing through a rescue just had a recorded work that morning. This is a horse that he paid to rehab for his retirement, shipped him to the rescue on his dime and gave up the papers under the assumption that they would find him a good home. If the horse could physically race, my friend would have raced him.

This stuff happens a lot unfortunately.

On the Farm
Aug. 17, 2009, 08:52 PM
If it affects foal registration this is affecting breeding rights.

That's an issue between you and the rules of whatever registration organization you're trying to comply with. They're the one who is controlling the "right" to registration.

Linny
Aug. 17, 2009, 10:08 PM
I understand that "sold without papers/pedigree" is intended to protect the animals but in many cases can work against a horse, especially a mare. High quality TB mare are accepted into the books of many other breeds. Those breed registries require (as they should) a verifiable proof of who they are allowing permanently into their gene pool. Certain high quality mares sold without papers find themselves effectively "worthless" because WB registries wont take them and in many cases their racing careers have left them with injuries than make them less than valued riding prospects. It has always been my contention that having a monetary value is what keeps horses from being "wards of rescues" and possibly victims of abuse or worse.
In today's environment, pedigree is important. More and more people in the show/sport horse world are noting pedigree and papers have meaning and value. If the bay gelding in that pasture is just an expensive liability to it's owner he may end up in a killpen. If he's a $500k earning son of Dynaformer/Storm Cat/Distorted Humor, there may be a greater likelihood that he will find a happy ending.

Las Olas
Aug. 17, 2009, 10:53 PM
This is the classic case of why I think that the JC should accept the status "retired" or "non-racing purposes" at the request of any owner. the change would be permanent and ANY subsequent owner would be aware of the status upun seeing the papers. Tracks would be aware of the status should such a horse pop up in entries and their name inputted for racing.

TJC is a stud book only. They do not have any say whether the horse can run. That is regulated by each state's jurisdiction. Legally, TJC cannot mandate that a horse is retired. The only thing they can do is take the papers and destroy them, as a way around the IHRA. We've been over this many times with you and you keep bringing it up again. I'm not really sure why you can't comprehend this? It's a pretty simple concept, IMO.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2009, 10:58 PM
littleblackmorgan, did you see this thread? http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=218820

Looks like some registries are more flexible than others.

OnTheFarm, most registries want to know the identity of the mare. Which *usually* means papers, and that includes the JC. Not everyone who breeds TBs is looking for a racehorse.

Re: Phantom on Tour, that's a sad story, but ever hear of the saying, the exception doesn't prove the rule?

Meredith Clark
Aug. 18, 2009, 12:03 AM
I adopted a mare from Bowie, got her directly from the training track from the owner and current trainer (both present and in agreement to give her to me). I told him that she was not going to race again but I would like her papers for fun and for insurance reasons. Her papers were at Laurel and he said he would send them.

weeks.. weeks.. weeks go by. I didn't care that much about the papers but it turned out she had a chronic breathing condition that was not treatable and I was going to have to put her down. I was donating her to my University as a necropsy and they needed proof of ownership.

I was finally able to talk to my neighbor who was the person who assigned stalls at the track (not sure what the formal title is) and he convinced the trainer to allow him to take the papers to me. The trainer never returned any of my phone calls and I most likely wouldn't have gotten the papers if I didn't have an "in".

On the other hand..

I know a girl who got an OTTB as a show horse. This horse showed its butt off and was eventually sent to FL to be sold. Horse didn't bring in the $$$ she thought and she didn't feel like keeping it in training or paying board. She decided to send the horse back to the track where in the first night the horse freaked out in the stall and almost broke a leg and took off zig zagging all over the training track it's first time back out and could have caused serious injuries to other horses and riders.

I'm not sure if she sold her in a claiming race like she wanted but for that sweet gelding had def. earned her keep and was not a race horse by any means anymore. If she hadn't been given her papers she wouldn't have been able to send him back to the track when she was too lazy to try to find her a home.

Kyzteke
Aug. 18, 2009, 09:00 AM
Didn't have time to read all 4 pages, so you may have gotten this answer already.

I doubt AHS will need the original papers. They usually ask for copies. Call them to see what you need and I'm sure they will work with you assuming the mare is good enough to be approved -- the AHS is pretty picky.

But if you give them copies + a BOS from the former owner you should be good to go. AHS will give her new "papers" stating her approval.

However, in the future know that, legally, a BOS can only be valid if signed by the owner or his/her legal agent. If the wife never owned the horse, she had no right to sign the BOS.

Good luck.

Linny
Aug. 18, 2009, 09:31 AM
TJC is a stud book only. They do not have any say whether the horse can run. That is regulated by each state's jurisdiction. Legally, TJC cannot mandate that a horse is retired. The only thing they can do is take the papers and destroy them, as a way around the IHRA. We've been over this many times with you and you keep bringing it up again. I'm not really sure why you can't comprehend this? It's a pretty simple concept, IMO.

I understand the rules and the JC mandate, but I'd propose a change to the rules for the good of the horses involved. The mandate exists to protect the bloodline and not the animals involved, or the people to breed/race them.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 09:44 AM
OK, I need to clarify this WHOLE situation apparently.

Some one emailed me an ad for the mare on Craigslist. I emailed the owner, talked to her. Went down to see her.

She was probably a 5 or high 4 on the body scale. Bald, 3 shoes and tired. For sale for $600.

The woman I bought her from was the ex of Vitali. In her words-when they need to rehome a TB, due to injury/lack of winning/etc etc, she takes the horses, keeps them to rehab and resells them cheap to find a good home.

My horse had no injuries, but needed some R & R. She had been at the sellers farm for 1 week when I met her. She ran 2x at Suffolk, got nothing. She had come from PA, another trainer for Gill I think, unless she was claimed. I did not check the records.

Her 2 buddies that came from the same track were in the same condition. This is not something that can happen in 2 weeks. She even told me she was PO'ed at the former trainer for putting them in this condition. IT WAS NOT MARCUS VITALI THAT MISTREATED THE HORSES! HE DID NOT HAVE THEM LONG ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had asked the seller, post sale but prior to pick up, if she had the papers. She said no, not in her posession.

At this time, the mare moved well. I bought her as a HJ prospect. Knowing full well that problems may surface.

I pick up the mare and ask again for the papers. She said she still did not have them.

So on, and so forth.

Time goes by. The mare gets the toe grabs pulled, is obviously ouchy in the hind and off on the right fore.

I get her shots done, start building her weight and she is wonderful!
The vet checks her out, digs out a corn on the right fore. Now she is tying up in the right hind. Surpass is massaged on, mare is fine-this is due to lack of work.

Vet expresses his concern about her NOT being sound for HJ. Lack of flexion in the lower fore limbs. Wants a full battery of xrays-all leg joints, multiple views.

I cant afford that right now, and there is no immediate reason to do so (I just dropped 3k on treatment for fistulous withers in my gelding).

During all this, I check and find out her bloodlines. I discuss breeding her to a WB w/the vet. He says he wants to do an internal ultrasound to make sure her lady bits are functional and healthy-in case she has been pumped full of birthcontrol during her long career.


I call Suffolk and speak to a guy in the office. Tell him who she is, who the trainer is and how I got her. He says "I have to ask Marcus since Gill normally wont release papers on a sold horse"

He calls me back and says "Call the ex wife and have her call Gill and she will contact Marcus to let him know about the papers"

She emails me that the track is sending me photocopies.

I get the copies and email her, telling her I want ORIGINALS. And WHY.

No response.

So here I am. I've written to Gill, c/o Vitali and explained my plight. Hoping for the best.


YES I looked at her tattoo. She is the named horse.

At this point and after the aggrivation (and believe me, I have called in favors to people with connections at the track) if I DONT get her papers, my last ditch effort will be to write the JC, with full explanation and hope they may contact him or tell me to pound sand-whatever-or allow me to get a duplicate.

If I CANT get them, then I have my eyes on a Perch stallion...and will forgo the AHS...or any other WB registry that requires original papers.

Laurierace
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:14 AM
So much of that makes absolutely no sense that I don't even know where to start. If I just picked one thing it is to say that horses can not tie up in a single leg. They either tie up or they don't, its a full body chemistry type of thing. That's enough fun for one post.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:16 AM
All this for a mare that's going to be bred to a Percheron.
LOL.

vxf111
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:22 AM
Okay, you shouldn't HAVE to do this-- but if you want a practical resolution, have you tried offering a little money for the papers?! Or agreed to sign a contract stating you won't race the mare (or whatever it is that the former owner is worried about). Surprising how a little green paper can make people sit up and take notice ;)

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:23 AM
I understand the rules and the JC mandate, but I'd propose a change to the rules for the good of the horses involved. The mandate exists to protect the bloodline and not the animals involved, or the people to breed/race them.

Apparently not. So, I'll explain it again. It's not a mandate. It's not something you can just 'propose a rule change for.' It's not a rule to protect the bloodline. It has nothing to do with the stud book. TJC would love to have more control over the industry. It falls under the IHRA. The legislation is in place to protect each individual racing jurisdiction's sovereignty. TJC provides the papers and keeps the stud book. The racing jurisdictions are the ones that require the papers to be on file before the horse can run and decide which horses are eligible. The only way TJC can prevent a horse from racing is to destroy it's papers and not issue another set, 'removing' the horse from the studbook (and basically thumbing their nose at the individual racing jurisdictions). Writing on the papers doesn't change the fact the the papers still exist and then it's up to each jurisdiction whether they will accept a horse to race with a stamp or writing on their papers.

And I wanted to edit to add that ultimately, if a buyer feels they absolutely have to have the papers, then demand them at time of purchase. If the papers are a deal breaker, then don't buy the horse.

Ibex
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:24 AM
All this for a mare that's going to be bred to a Percheron.
LOL.

:confused: oh sorry, were you trying to make a funny? Or just not reading for comprehension? She wants the papers to breed into a WB registry; the Perch is a fallback.

And why the nastiness towards someone who is trying to do right by a mare that was a THROW AWAY from your own industry? She bought the mare for about meat price. AHA approval, if she's breeding sound, means something in the sport horse world.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:32 AM
:confused: oh sorry, were you trying to make a funny?


Ok.... why the nastiness towards someone who is trying to do right by a mare that was a THROW AWAY from your own industry? She bought the mare for about meat price. AHA approval, if she's breeding sound, means somethin in the sport horse world.

No nastiness, just trying to reconcile the if I don't get Hano approval I'm going to breed to a Percheron? Like... if I can't get the top of the line Lexus, I'll take the 1992 Ford F-150. I'm getting the distinct impression this hasn't been all thought through.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:32 AM
So much of that makes absolutely no sense that I don't even know where to start. If I just picked one thing it is to say that horses can not tie up in a single leg. They either tie up or they don't, its a full body chemistry type of thing. That's enough fun for one post.

Ya know what, Laurie? TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG.

FOR THE LAST TIME I NEVER HAD A HORSE WITH ISSUES. MY VET SAID TYING UP NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

Do enlighten me on what exactly is wrong with my post???????????? Feel free to quote!!!!!!

I wrote exactly what happened to me and my horse. JEESH :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Laurierace
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:42 AM
It just sounds like you are getting bad advice all around. I apologize for adding to your angst but it seriously makes no sense. If your vet told you your horse was tying up on the right hind you need a new vet. One that will help you figure out what if anything is actually wrong with the horse and help you fix it. Forget about getting her bred for right now and get a vet that knows what they are doing to give you a real diagnosis. You should be able to do that without multiple views of every joint. By the way, a 5 is considered ideal weight so I would have a hard time labeling that mistreatment. Where are you located? Maybe someone here can give you a recommendation for a vet that is a little more accomodating.

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:47 AM
Ok, so OP, let me make sure I have the facts straight. You bought a TB mare for $600 as a H/J prospect. She has some significant soundness issues that will keep her from being a show horse. So, she couldn't run, and she has no show record, with undiagnosed soundness. You can't afford the diagnostics to find the problem (and possibly correct it). So, you want to breed this mare (that couldn't run and has no show record). You'd prefer an AHS stallion, but will settle for a Percheron, and are prepared to spend the $$$ for stud fee, mare care, foal care, inspections and registrations. But she'll still have the undiagnosed soundness issues. Did I get that right? :confused:

Ibex
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:47 AM
No nastiness, just trying to reconcile the if I don't get Hano approval I'm going to breed to a Percheron? Like... if I can't get the top of the line Lexus, I'll take the 1992 Ford F-150. I'm getting the distinct impression this hasn't been all thought through.

Crossing out a TB to either a WB or a Draft makes totally sense; different goals, but both are completely viable (not to mention proven) options.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:53 AM
OK, enough is enough.

Lexus vs Ford? Seriously? I dont find that it is nessesary to be that way. There is nothing wrong with what I am trying to do with my horse.


I wanted assistance with how to get her papers. I dont need snide comments on what I want to breed her to...I'm not irresponsible.


Perhaps if the mare cant be bred that I should just dump her, eh? Instead of giving her a fair shake to a Perch stallion since I cant her papers for WB breeding?

PLease. Keep the convo to the topic at hand.

Laurierace
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:53 AM
I have been training horses for almost 20 years. I have had all sorts of mystery lamenesses over the years. Not once have we ever had to resort to exraying everything just to figure out what the problem was. That is because I have vets who are competent and experienced.

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:56 AM
Crossing out a TB to either a WB or a Draft makes totally sense; different goals, but both are completely viable (not to mention proven) options.

I think the point Drv was making is that maybe the OP should have the goal in mind before bringing another foal into the world. Not just breed to something as a 'fallback.' It could very well be an nice foal, but foals are expensive to raise, and in this market, it better be outstanding. Just so the OP knows that very few breeding ventures are making money right now.

OP, like Laurierace said, something doesn't seem right with your vet. My boyfriend is a vet and would never think to suggest such a thing. If you post a more specific location of where the horse is, maybe someone could recommend a different vet.

danceronice
Aug. 18, 2009, 11:03 AM
Ok, so OP, let me make sure I have the facts straight. You bought a TB mare for $600 as a H/J prospect. She has some significant soundness issues that will keep her from being a show horse. So, she couldn't run, and she has no show record, with undiagnosed soundness. You can't afford the diagnostics to find the problem (and possibly correct it). So, you want to breed this mare (that couldn't run and has no show record). You'd prefer an AHS stallion, but will settle for a Percheron, and are prepared to spend the $$$ for stud fee, mare care, foal care, inspections and registrations. But she'll still have the undiagnosed soundness issues. Did I get that right? :confused:

Yeah, I gotta go with Las Olas here. She's a dud on the track and may or may not be unsound for riding purposes and your first instinct is to breed? When you can't afford to get the unsoundness diagnosed and can't afford an exam before breeding?

Given everything that is wrong with this mare, I would have to say getting the papers, while frustrating, is the least of your problems. Unless she has some sensational sport bloodlines and fantastic conformation, I can't quite see why she HAS to be bred if she can't do anything else, to the point where you'll cross her to a darft horse if the AHS inspection falls through. The market's glutted right now. Are you prepared to keep the foal if it doesn't sell? You can afford that when you can't afford diagnostic care?

No one's saying throw her on a truck to Canada tomorrow, just that maybe breeding shouldnt' be the #1 issue with her for now.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 11:05 AM
Ok, so OP, let me make sure I have the facts straight. You bought a TB mare for $600 as a H/J prospect. She has some significant soundness issues that will keep her from being a show horse. So, she couldn't run, and she has no show record, with undiagnosed soundness. You can't afford the diagnostics to find the problem (and possibly correct it). So, you want to breed this mare (that couldn't run and has no show record). You'd prefer an AHS stallion, but will settle for a Percheron, and are prepared to spend the $$$ for stud fee, mare care, foal care, inspections and registrations. But she'll still have the undiagnosed soundness issues. Did I get that right? :confused:


There isnt undiagnosed soundness issues. She had a corn (removed) and her right hind was tying up (perhaps that is the wrong word Laurie-it was tight like a charlie horse and giving her grief).

The vet wants full xrays prior to me working her extensively. Since I did not do a PPE he said its a starting point.

Its not that I dont HAVE the money. I'm holding off right now as there is no cause to DO the xrays. She is still rehabbing with the weight issue, and I've had her just over a month. It's not time quite yet to worry about extensive training.

The breeding is an explorable option. I want to have all of my options laid out before me.

As for the weight scale...sorry, I am not 100% familiar with it. But the mare was a good 350 underweight...this was BEYOND race fit. Every bone stuck out...you could clearly see her ribs, her hips were sharp and pointy and her spine was so visible...

Again, this stuff is all new to me. Maybe not being snarky would help. I'm a newbie with a needy horse...my other one is the polar opposite.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 11:07 AM
Are you prepared to keep the foal if it doesn't sell? You can afford that when you can't afford diagnostic care?

If she is bred, it is for ME. Not to sell the foal, that is not my intention. Which is why I am checking out the WBs...I love the Perch/Tb and the Hano's...

For Christ's sake, I am not broke. Thats not what I meant...

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 11:24 AM
If she is bred, it is for ME. Not to sell the foal, that is not my intention. Which is why I am checking out the WBs...I love the Perch/Tb and the Hano's...

For Christ's sake, I am not broke. Thats not what I meant...

Ok then. So now that that is cleared up, back to your issue. ;) I do know that in cases like your's, the Executive Director of the AHS has allowed mares into their stud book with a photocopy of the papers and a bill of sale. They approve it on a case by case basis. If they do not allow her into the studbook, they are still pretty good about registering the resulting foals. Not sure where you are located, but the inspection tour is almost over for the year. The only NE locations left are Mt. Airy, MD (Oct 11), and Blacksburg, VA (Oct 12). So, I would call them soon, if that's what you want to do.

As for the xrays, I'm with you. I would check into the hind leg problem, but wouldn't do a full survey on a $600 OTTB. IMO, they usually have something in there and then you are wondering if it will cause a problem, should you take it out, etc. A lot of these guys off the track just need some time.

Is the lameness constant, or intermittant?

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 11:37 AM
The lameness is both actually. She was off when her grabs were pulled. She is getting wedges up front tomorrow and shoes back on the hind. The farrier wanted to rest the back given the state of the hooves.

Her rear leg is A-OK now. The vet said it was most definitely caused by lack of work, since she was stall bound for a little less than 2 weeks (she was so sore, and the mud was just terrible). She got hand walked.

Now that she is doing much better, she's out again. Hind looks fabulous. She is coming around nicely on the foot with the corn-I soak it every day. He said she may be sore for a few days after he dug it out (last Wed).

Other than that, once she gets her shoes wed, i plan on working with her this weekend. Both the vet, farrier, our trainer and I believe she will be sooo much better with the shoes.

She had grabs on with a front wedge (or whatever. slight wedge). Her tendons got quite inflammed when we put her on flat shoes, and the farrier said she had such brittle hooves and no wall that he didnt feel comfy removing the shoes so soon to put wedges in. So its been a few weeks, her tendons are 100% thanks to linament, cold hosing, standing wraps etc etc.

But as of right now, there is NO reason to xray her. Her hind issue was all muscle, you could see the tightness.

SleepyFox
Aug. 18, 2009, 01:21 PM
Alright, to defend LBM here, I believe she's stated that this mare earned ~$200k - not exactly a horse that couldn't run. I suspect she doesn't have the commercial appeal to be a valuable broodmare prospect (or else she would have been sold through a different venue), but I wouldn't call her a flop on the track. And, to earn that kind of money, she had to be reasonably sound - at least to a manageable level - for most of her career.

I do agree w/ Laurie - your vet sounds a little suspect. Birthcontrol? Full set of xrays? If she's off up high in one hind, look at that area. If she has any other issues, they'll show up when you start to work her. Why waste your money?

What does concern me about her prospects as a broodmare is that you said she is bald. Does she sweat? Raising a foal is hard on a non-sweater, especially if they are just turned out.

Laurierace
Aug. 18, 2009, 01:33 PM
Did someone just out themselves?

DMK
Aug. 18, 2009, 01:48 PM
Sorry, but it seems a little hard to believe that a TB sold to a non-racing person would end up racing again...

years ago i had a nice little allowance/high claimer given to me because his owner/trainer thought with his most recent injury he would be headed down the claiming ranks fast, and thought the horse deserved maybe a better shot at a new career than that. they didn't know me from adam, but i was well vouched for. ;) so i got him and his papers, and before i could even geld him (which was damn near as i was unloading him off the trailer ;) ) i had 3 people contact me about buying him so they could keep racing him.

considering he was a freebie, it would have been a tidy sum earned for what amounted to a trailer ride and a few days board. so, yes, i can see where owners can & should be concerned. more the pity the JC doesn't recognize a retired status.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:09 PM
Did someone just out themselves?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????

Laurierace
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:14 PM
You posted in your alter for the last post.

Beezer
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:19 PM
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????

LBM, it appears that you, or someone with excellent knowledge of the situation ;) , just posted about the mare's rain rot, her vet care, etc. under another screen name. It appears to be one used to start a thread over on Off Course about a dangerous boarder.

So, yes, the "altermethis" screen name used above would appear to have outed you as the alter.



Re: Phantom on Tour, that's a sad story, but ever hear of the saying, the exception doesn't prove the rule?

Actually, it's the exception that DOES prove the rule. :) Or so the saying goes.

And now, LBM, you know why this warmblood breeder always bought her TB mares through sales ... because I was guaranteed to get the papers. ;) FWIW, as others have said, there are many, many WB registries that will accept a copy of the mare's papers. You really need to ask the registry you want your foal to be registered with what it's practices and needs are, so that you know what your options are in case you cannot get the original papers.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:26 PM
Sleepy...she had the worst case of rain rot I have EVER seen. The vet said it was exaserbated (sp?) due to poor nutrition...she's not bald anymore, LOL. MUCH better, just a tiny scabbing spot on her back and thats quickly clearing up.

Vet said sometimes trainers give mares Regumate? Maybe? I forget the name, but it stops their heat...he did tell me, but I have since forgotten. He said if a horse is kept on what ever it is, there is a chance her overies wont be functional...however, she just had a cycle, and he said that was FABULOUS and great news. But wants an ultrasound to be sure her bits arent nuggets.

At this point, the guy has done so much for my other horse, and has delivered/treated so many mares and babies...I may be wrong on the actually names of things, but I'm new to the TB world and all the wonderful (!) surprises it brings!

always worth memorizing those kodak moments, just in case!

Beezer
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:43 PM
always worth memorizing those kodak moments, just in case!

SNORK!! :p :p

(Really, LBM, the whole alter outing was kinda funny and no need to have removed your posts admitting that altermethis is you and that you're technology-challenged, although given the deletions, I think you've figured at least some part of it out. ;) )

Laurierace
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:47 PM
Now go over to your Altermethis thread and answer your own question using your LBM screename and the cycle will be complete!

SleepyFox
Aug. 18, 2009, 02:57 PM
Okay, my jaded little brain is starting to put two and two together here... This mare didn't get rain rot at the track. When you take the rain rot in addition to her overall poor condition, I'd wager she was with the "agent" awhile before you bought her. Does that matter? Not really. But, you've been saying Mike Gill and his trainers are the ones that had her in poor condition and I suspect you are misdirecting the blame. I think the agent had her kicked out for a bit waiting to sell her and that's the reason for her condition. It doesn't really matter, but you might want to be careful about using her as an example of how Gill treats his horses.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 03:16 PM
I'm *trying* to protect my BO in the other thread, LOL...I deleted as a knee jerk...LOL

Well, according to the mares records with dates of races, the agent was honest. She told me the horse ran the day she went to her farm. The farm is a hike to the track....

All of her other horses were healthy and no sign of anything...just mine and her 2 trailer buddies. Though the agent said they washed her with something in PA that burned her...that made the vet laugh.

LittleblackMorgan
Aug. 18, 2009, 03:17 PM
And another thing, I dont know Gill or Vitali or any of them. Just where she was before she was here. Making ASS-umptions, I guess...I dont mean to slander anyone or anything. Just want my damn papers.

grayarabpony
Aug. 18, 2009, 03:21 PM
years ago i had a nice little allowance/high claimer given to me because his owner/trainer thought with his most recent injury he would be headed down the claiming ranks fast, and thought the horse deserved maybe a better shot at a new career than that. they didn't know me from adam, but i was well vouched for. ;) so i got him and his papers, and before i could even geld him (which was damn near as i was unloading him off the trailer ;) ) i had 3 people contact me about buying him so they could keep racing him.

considering he was a freebie, it would have been a tidy sum earned for what amounted to a trailer ride and a few days board. so, yes, i can see where owners can & should be concerned. more the pity the JC doesn't recognize a retired status.

Yes to what's in bold. Although, if registries will accept substitutes, heck let's just go with that! I wonder if the same would hold true of the occasional stallion prospect.

A lot of horses, though, by the time they leave the track, are not high claimers anymore. Your horse sounds like he had a very compassionate owner/ trainer.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2009, 03:45 PM
Yes to what's in bold.

For the zillionth time. The JC does not retire horses, it does not run horses. What they do is keep a studbook and register horses. Individual racing jurisdictions decide whether horses can race or not. Those bodies require a copy of the papers to be on file in the racing office. The JC can not tell any racetrack what horse can race or can not race. What they can do is take the papers and destroy them and in effect remove the horse from the studbook.

grayarabpony
Aug. 18, 2009, 04:08 PM
And for the zillionth time, I know what the JC does. I am *wishing* they did something different. See the difference?

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2009, 04:13 PM
And for the zillionth time, I know what the JC does. I am *wishing* they did something different. See the difference?

What could the do that's different?

NMK
Aug. 18, 2009, 04:16 PM
A little off topic here, but how does each racing juristiction find out which horses have been ruled off at other tracks? Is there a database somewhere for that?

Just curious.

lily04
Aug. 18, 2009, 04:29 PM
Yes there is. An owner sent me a horse from FL a couple of years ago and when I entered her in PA after several months of training the racing sec told me she had been ruled off for gate issues. She apparently was deemed to dangerous in the gate to deal with. I never had a problem with her at the gate and was able to run her after getting the starters approval. She won her second start for me by 13 lenghths. I have also been sent horses that are on the vets list by owners that think they are pulling a fast one by changing trainers and you won't find out.

Jessi P
Aug. 18, 2009, 05:27 PM
I sell lots and lots of horses off the track into non racing homes. Probably 75% of horses that I sell priced under $2k come only with a photocopy of their papers, NOT with their actual foal papers. Really, be glad you got a photocopy and stop harassing people over getting the originals.

If you didn't ask about getting her papers before you bought her, well now you know better for the next time you buy a horse. I wish you all the best with getting the mare back sound, her rain rot healed and with getting your alters straightened out. Several WB registries will accept a photocopy of the papers - try actually calling them to see if they will accept a copy for inspection purposes.

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 06:54 PM
And for the zillionth time, I know what the JC does. I am *wishing* they did something different. See the difference?

Go back and read post #80. What you are wishing can only happen through Federal legislative changes to the IHRA, or some radical moves by the RCI, and I'm not even sure that they have that kind of power.

Pronzini
Aug. 18, 2009, 09:16 PM
Go back and read post #80. What you are wishing can only happen through Federal legislative changes to the IHRA, or some radical moves by the RCI, and I'm not even sure that they have that kind of power.

I would think it would be like Ford Motors telling the California DMV whether or not to allow a registration on a specific car or waive the smog regulations. Ford doesn't have the power to do that.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2009, 09:28 PM
What could the do that's different?

they don't have direct authority, but they do have moral authority and the bully pulpit, they could work with a few major racing state jurisdictions (to start with), the NTRA and try to establish some common guidelines between what they, as issuer of papers could do, and various racetracks would honor if said tracks were presented with a horse with such papers.

amazingly enough, regulatory work is crafted and executed along these lines every. damn. day. in this country. it's no big deal, really. it just takes some initiative and a little bit of work by the parties at hand and some degree of mutual interest. TB racing's not so special that they can't put on their big boy pants and do the same sort of things that far larger, more complexly regulated entities do all the time.

even better, ALL the parties involved could take this "easy win" and do the PR spin to show that they are making it easier for owners to responsibly retire horses into new careers.

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 09:54 PM
they don't have direct authority, but they do have moral authority and the bully pulpit, they could work with a few major racing state jurisdictions (to start with), the NTRA and try to establish some common guidelines between what they, as issuer of papers could do, and various racetracks would honor if said tracks were presented with a horse with such papers.

amazingly enough, regulatory work is crafted and executed along these lines every. damn. day. in this country. it's no big deal, really. it just takes some initiative and a little bit of work by the parties at hand and some degree of mutual interest. TB racing's not so special that they can't put on their big boy pants and do the same sort of things that far larger, more complexly regulated entities do all the time.

even better, ALL the parties involved could take this "easy win" and do the PR spin to show that they are making it easier for owners to responsibly retire horses into new careers.


It's not that simple. There are IHRA issues, interstate commerce issues, etc.

I don't believe that any other breed registry has a 'retired' status, either. TJC put a lot of time and money into the PHR with the intent of having papers issued for OTTB's and having those papers recognized by other breed registries. There was vitually no interest in it, so they spun it off onto it's own. Yet, people still B&M about TJC and how they don't care about the horses after they retire. So, as I see it, the sport horse world is at fault for not trying to make it work. The solution was there, as a seperate registry for non-racing TB's.

Linny
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:07 PM
DMK is right. The JC members are very important people in the "real" world in addition to their position in racing. GEEZ, Will Farish is one of George Bush's best friends. (Like him or not, being a Bush pal means you are pretty well placed in social and political circles.) Farish (and Dinny Phipps) basically ARE the Jockey Club. If they wanted to use the force of their social/political and racing position to accept a "retired/non racing" status to allow non racing TB's to be papered forever, they could. It would NOT be easy and would involve racing states participation and the regulatory and legislative level but it wouldn't be impossible.
This is apart from the OP's situation, which like many sounds cloudy. Papers ARE important. If a TB can be sold via transfer of papers without fear of being sent (or sent back) to a track, it will have a positive impact on alot of people and animals and I can see no one who will be harmed.
Every track has access to the JC data base. It is how entries are taken and then show up in the form of past performances. It is how horse ID info is transmitted and how accuarate results are sent to the database for future use in pp's. If a horse could have a "retired" status it would be on par with "ruled off" and no entry would be allowed.
I understand the idea of altering future use but there is precedent. Anyone who has ever bought a house that is on the historic register knows about it. As long as the status is known and included in the sales contract the buyer should have no recourse. It's why terms like "as is" are used in real estate transactions. The buyer is expected to do due dilligence and understand what they are buying.

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:33 PM
DMK is right. The JC members are very important people in the "real" world in addition to their position in racing. GEEZ, Will Farish is one of George Bush's best friends. (Like him or not, being a Bush pal means you are pretty well placed in social and political circles.) Farish (and Dinny Phipps) basically ARE the Jockey Club. If they wanted to use the force of their social/political and racing position to accept a "retired/non racing" status to allow non racing TB's to be papered forever, they could. It would NOT be easy and would involve racing states participation and the regulatory and legislative level but it wouldn't be impossible.
This is apart from the OP's situation, which like many sounds cloudy. Papers ARE important. If a TB can be sold via transfer of papers without fear of being sent (or sent back) to a track, it will have a positive impact on alot of people and animals and I can see no one who will be harmed.
Every track has access to the JC data base. It is how entries are taken and then show up in the form of past performances. It is how horse ID info is transmitted and how accuarate results are sent to the database for future use in pp's. If a horse could have a "retired" status it would be on par with "ruled off" and no entry would be allowed.
I understand the idea of altering future use but there is precedent. Anyone who has ever bought a house that is on the historic register knows about it. As long as the status is known and included in the sales contract the buyer should have no recourse. It's why terms like "as is" are used in real estate transactions. The buyer is expected to do due dilligence and understand what they are buying.

Well, obviously you don't understand enough about the IHRA, interstate commerce, or the thoroughbred business for me to explain this so you can understand, so I give up. How does being a friend of GW going to help you pass legislation in a democratic Congress? Your historic register comment makes no sense here, as TJC doesn't have authority to create a 'retired' status. All I can suggest is that you go back and read the previous posts over, and maybe at some point you will understand it.

I do think that since the Starlight/Hofmeister lawsuit, you will see more contracts with retired language in them, which IMO is the easiest and most immediate way to tackle the issue.

Las Olas
Aug. 18, 2009, 10:35 PM
I would think it would be like Ford Motors telling the California DMV whether or not to allow a registration on a specific car or waive the smog regulations. Ford doesn't have the power to do that.

Yes, and I bet some of those big wigs at Ford are pretty powerful people. Maybe even friends of the former Preisdent! :D

Linny
Aug. 18, 2009, 11:25 PM
The reference to GWB was intended to demostrate the social and political strata in which JC members and the JC Board of Directors in particular travel. They are high ranking people on both sides of the aisle. The Jc is dominated by people who associate in high circles, not the rank and file. It was not intended to mean that Will Farish should or could call his republican friends in congress and change the laws that concern racing.
I am aquainted with racing regulators in more than one major racing state and will say that these guys are generally mid level political appointees that would quiver in their shoes if JC directors or their friends in high placed started making noise about changing laws.
As for the Starlight case, I approve of what they are doing. I am friends with Jack Wolf and Don Lucarelli and have spoken with them about their taking the lead on the issue. The problem is that most people who sell or give away horses don't have the time of funds to follow up on where a horse is and what he's doing. If using "retired" or "not for racing purposed" clauses in sales contracts is binding and the courts will uphold the language, why would it be impossible for the JC to adopt the language? If the court accepts the language in MY sales contract, what is to keep the next owner from not using the "non racing" clause and to keep such a horse, as Sam P off the track for the safety of horses and humans?

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 19, 2009, 02:35 AM
It's not that simple. There are IHRA issues, interstate commerce issues, etc.

I don't believe that any other breed registry has a 'retired' status, either.

Good point.
Does the Irish Sport Horse Registry have a retired status so a horse can never be evented again?
Does the KWPN have a retired status that says a horse is barred from doing FEI level Dressage?
Does the Holsteiner Verband issue papers saying you can't showjump a horse from this point forth?

People for some bizarre reason seem to think the JC is this uber powerful body that controls all things related to TB racing in the US. Do people really think the JC (a private organisation) can tell individual state governments how to run their racing? I guess people forget that the USA is a Federal Republic.

Barnfairy
Aug. 19, 2009, 08:19 AM
In the absence of a unified national racing governing authority in this country, the requirement of official Jockey Club registration is one thing all Thoroughbred racehorses have in common regardless of state.

The JC's "sold without pedigree" rule allows an owner to officially put a Thoroughbred on "retired status", even if the JC doesn't label it as such.

It's not perfect --I do think papers are important, as sometimes any shred of value a horse has left can help with the rehoming process-- but it is the most effective option we have at this time, and as pointed out, goes above and beyond any other breed registry.

Good thing I'm sitting down. Anybody else getting dizzy? :lol:

NMK
Aug. 19, 2009, 09:05 AM
Who keeps the database of ruled off horses?

grayarabpony
Aug. 19, 2009, 09:40 AM
Geez, it's not that hard to get duplicate papers. You don't need a signed affadavit from a former owner, you just need the statement of the current owner. Besides that, if papers stamped "not for racing" haven't kept horses from being raced (since this been "proven" to be ineffective), I'm sure there's some artist out there who can create counterfeit papers.

Sounds like this is more about protecting egos than horses.

If warmblood registries will take copies of papers, tatooes, or DNA evidence, fine, then this is all a tempest in a teapot. Unless you'd like to breed a TB sportshorse. Then you'd go to the Performance Horse Registry.

I think people outside of racing see papers as registristration documents and not as racing documents, especially since most TBs spend the majority of their lives outside of the racing world.

Why did the PHR go nowhere? Everybody flocking to the European registries? Must be.

Las Olas
Aug. 19, 2009, 10:52 AM
Why did the PHR go nowhere? Everybody flocking to the European registries? Must be.

I'd love to know. I was working at TJC back then. It was set up to get around the regulatory problems we are discussing regarding the 'retired' status. TJC just does not have the authority to classify a horse as retired. Period. So, originally the PHR was to provide papers and a registry for non-racing TBs. When they didn't have much interest, they opended it to 1/2 TBs and added the Silver Stirrup and other awards to encourage people to participate. It ended up being a big bust. And, personally led me to believe that OTTB owners really don't give a shit, they just want something to bitch about. When a perfectly good solution was handed to them, they were completely uninterested. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's their problem, not TJCs. My view on it now is that if you want papers for your OTTB, then call the PHR. If it's not good enough, then buy a warmblood, demand the TJC papers at time of sale, or suck it up and buy a TB from an accredited auction where the papers are required for sale. There are plenty of cute horses that go through the last book for the upset price.

Las Olas
Aug. 19, 2009, 11:04 AM
I am aquainted with racing regulators in more than one major racing state and will say that these guys are generally mid level political appointees that would quiver in their shoes if JC directors or their friends in high placed started making noise about changing laws.


I don't know which jurisdictions those are, but the ones in FL and KY would tell them to shove it (and have). TJC has no control over them and they know it. I mean, seriously, pretty much every JC member is getting screwed on the Seminole slots deal when they race in Florida. Don't you think if they had any power over the state legislatures (jurisdictions) that they would've already shut the Seminole casinos down, or allowed table games at the racino's??? The Florida Supreme Court already ruled the Seminole games unconstitutional, and are unable to shut them down as they have no authority, and the Dept of Interior feels like it's not their problem. So, how do you think the TJC Board members are going to bully the states into relinquishing some of their authority of their own jurisdictions, when they can't even get a court order enforced?

You are living in a bubble if you think they have that kind of power.

Barnfairy
Aug. 19, 2009, 11:16 AM
Geez, it's not that hard to get duplicate papers. You don't need a signed affadavit from a former owner, you just need the statement of the current owner. Besides that, if papers stamped "not for racing" haven't kept horses from being raced (since this been "proven" to be ineffective), I'm sure there's some artist out there who can create counterfeit papers.

Just to be clear, there is a significant difference between a horse whose papers have been returned to the JC (officially "sold without papers") and one whose former owner just didn't pass the papers along. The former is no longer considered a JC registered Thoroughbred. Furthermore, cetificates of foal registration with writing on them are considered defaced. Papers upon which someone has written or stamped "not for racing" could indeed be replaced with duplicates.

You would absolutely not be able to get duplicates on a TB for whom the originals were returned to the JC. This is exactly why, as Laurierace pointed out, papers are returned on TRF horses...it prevents them from ever being raced again.

JC has rules regarding deceptive practices as well -- someone attempting to use counterfeit papers to race or breed for JC registration a horse which was officially sold without papers would most likely find themselves in mighty hot water sooner or later.

grayarabpony
Aug. 19, 2009, 11:41 AM
I did not say that a person could get duplicates of papers returned to the JC. And if the JC stamped the papers, "not for racing" and put this in their database, people couldn't get duplicates for racing either. There is no doubt lots of instances where the papers aren't even returned to the JC. They weren't in the case of my mare.

Woooo! Now I'm dizzy too!

grayarabpony
Aug. 19, 2009, 11:59 AM
I'd love to know. I was working at TJC back then. It was set up to get around the regulatory problems we are discussing regarding the 'retired' status. TJC just does not have the authority to classify a horse as retired. Period. So, originally the PHR was to provide papers and a registry for non-racing TBs. When they didn't have much interest, they opended it to 1/2 TBs and added the Silver Stirrup and other awards to encourage people to participate. It ended up being a big bust. And, personally led me to believe that OTTB owners really don't give a shit, they just want something to bitch about. When a perfectly good solution was handed to them, they were completely uninterested. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's their problem, not TJCs. My view on it now is that if you want papers for your OTTB, then call the PHR. If it's not good enough, then buy a warmblood, demand the TJC papers at time of sale, or suck it up and buy a TB from an accredited auction where the papers are required for sale. There are plenty of cute horses that go through the last book for the upset price.

I don't think the OTTB people just want something to bitch about. It's the lure of the European registries. Which, if the European registries don't actually require the original foal papers as long as you can verify the identity of the mare, then there isn't a problem. Kind of a pain for the owner, but if you got a really nice mare for a dirt cheap price, then the trouble of verifying the mare's identity is worth it.

Barnfairy
Aug. 19, 2009, 12:21 PM
I did not say that a person could get duplicates of papers returned to the JC. And if the JC stamped the papers, "not for racing" and put this in their database, people couldn't get duplicates for racing either. There is no doubt lots of instances where the papers aren't even returned to the JC. They weren't in the case of my mare.Super! We are in agreement then. I hope you don't mind if I leave my posts up for the benefit of those reading this thread besides you & me. ;)

Moral of the story, once again, it is that it is up to the buyer to think through the what-ifs and potential intended uses for a horse before making a purchase. Should posessing the horse's original JC Certificate of Foal Registration be a crucial element of the buyer's intended use, then the buyer should say so and make an agreement with the seller to obtain those papers during the transaction. If the buyer doesn't ask for the papers during the sale, it is the buyer's problem should she need them later on and not be able to obtain them. It is not the responsibility of the seller or the Jockey Club or even Michael Gill to look out for the buyer's interests.

Maybe this needs to be a included in a handbook of things people should be aware of before purchasing a TB off the track, or just a TB in general as the case may be since the OP didn't buy the horse directly off the track.

lily04
Aug. 19, 2009, 01:41 PM
Who keeps the database of ruled off horses?

The race track where they were ruled off, but if you try to enter at another race track it will show up. I'm not sure what database they use.

NMK
Aug. 19, 2009, 02:13 PM
Anybody know?

DMK
Aug. 19, 2009, 02:14 PM
Well, obviously you don't understand enough about the IHRA, interstate commerce, or the thoroughbred business for me to explain this so you can understand, so I give up.

can't never could...

and you know what? Ford's industry representative did sit down with key CA officials to talk about that emissions law. if they didn't, they are an anomaly amidst large heavily regulated industries. i'm sure they didn't get things done 100% of their way, but please to not be thinking these regulated/regulator relationships do not involve mutual participation from all involved.

if they have the will, the bully pulpit and the position in the industry, the JC & NTRA could most certainly approach a few key friendly tracks about supporting the idea. you get a few tracks to go along, you get the positive media, you apply gentle suggestions to the others, they see the positive media, they figure out that these horses aren't really runners anyway and follow along. Some follow sooner, others follow later, some may not ever, but some/most is better than none because it's hard to fathom the downside for them. they know 95% of the horses that ever get this "status" were on the fast road to being ruled off antway, and the cold hard facts is that every one in the industry know the industry depends on gambling and keeping the 2 year olds churning through the system. it really is about "out with the old, in with the new"...

as for the idea that no other registry does this means ... what? i mean it's a nice peice of trivia to know, but it has no bearing on the racing industry if enough people in the industry thought this was important to this industry.

BeverlyAStrauss
Aug. 19, 2009, 03:26 PM
An interesting point here is that you dont even have to have a mare's papers in possession to register a TB foal. As long as you know who the mare is (tattoo and markings), and who the covering sire is, you submit the foal reg forms simply identifying the parents- you do not have to submit the mare's papers- as long as the color/bloodtype for the foal comes back as a match for those parents, foal certificates are issued.

DMK
Aug. 19, 2009, 03:58 PM
truly, they really should be reconsidering the paper rule on tb mares w/a tattoo and a bill of sale. i would think the wb registries would be first concerned by pedigree (is it who it purports to be) and secondarily concerned with ownership.

let's face it, in absence of a dna test, papers are easier to fake than a readable tattoo, and a bill of sale is legal ownership, so everything they are concerned with can be satisfied.

grayarabpony
Aug. 19, 2009, 04:14 PM
Super! We are in agreement then. I hope you don't mind if I leave my posts up for the benefit of those reading this thread besides you & me. ;)



Yes, in agreement. :)

RenaissanceMare
Aug. 19, 2009, 09:27 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and be the b!tch right now... a person who doesn't know how to use the Henneke scale (http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/1010.htm), know that a horse can't "tie up" in one leg, or understand what Regu-Mate (http://www.regu-mate.com/) does shouldn't be breeding a horse.

If you really want a foal go to an auction and rescue one. It's a long 11 months with much that can go wrong physically and financially.

BeverlyAStrauss
Aug. 19, 2009, 09:52 PM
and breeding horses is like growing hay- it is easier to buy good hay than grow it, just like it is easier to buy a good horse than breed one- you just never know what you might get......

Barnfairy
Aug. 20, 2009, 12:15 PM
Who keeps the database of ruled off horses?That's a good question. I wonder if it's the Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau (http://www.trpb.com/), the subsidiary of the Thoroughbred Racing Association (http://www.tra-online.com/about.html) which oversees tattoos and maintains extensive records on people and horses.

luvmytbs
Aug. 20, 2009, 12:16 PM
Just yesterday a friend of mine came up to me at the barn very upset because a horse he retired from racing through a rescue just had a recorded work that morning. This is a horse that he paid to rehab for his retirement, shipped him to the rescue on his dime and gave up the papers under the assumption that they would find him a good home. If the horse could physically race, my friend would have raced him.

This stuff happens a lot unfortunately.

I am curious to find out which "rescue" would be involved here.

I purchased a horse from a trainer at Beulah to be retired, got the papers as well. He was only four at the time. You can't imagine how many times I have had people ask me if I would like to sell him to them so they could race him. :mad:

NMK
Aug. 20, 2009, 01:30 PM
Thank you Barnfairy, I will look into that. Yet another "Bureau" with the sport. Yea

On the other topic here (sorry OP) --most reputable rescues do keep a database of horses they have owned on a virtual stable. Once, a horse that came through a rescue showed up as being worked in FLA. The owner of that horse was then required to send dated photos of the horse, it's lip tattoo, etc. Turned out the horse that worked in FLA was very closely named to the retired horse, and the clockers down there got it wrong.

I urge anyone who sells a TB to anyone to get a bill of sale that has a "no return to racing" clause in it if you are concerned, then put that horse in your virtual stable.

To the OP--I urge you to think very carefully about adding to the horse population at this time. Many good horses are looking for homes right now, and they have been waiting a while to find them.

Nancy

RedMare01
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:27 PM
Just FYI, for the mare to be approved MMB AHS, she has to score an overall 7 (including a 7 for impulsion). It doesn't sound like this mare could do that, papers or not. She could probably be placed in a lower book with papers if not sound or, if bred to a Hano stallion, you could get a COP (certificate of pedigree) on the foal with no papers on the mare. The COP is obviously not as desirable as full registration, but the horse would be eligible for year end awards.

Other registries are not necessarily the same. I'm 90% sure the Dutch will give full papers to foals by approved Dutch stallions out of TB mares without inspection. Have no idea if they would need original papers or not. You might contact them to find out.

Just something for you to consider before things go any further....

Caitlin

CSSporthorses
Aug. 21, 2009, 08:48 PM
Dutch will not. No physical papers on the mare = no registration of the foal. The Dutch will not inspect TB mares either, they have since stopped. Even if the foal goes to inspection on momma's side, the mare is not evaluated at all. The best you can do with TB papers and Dutch stallions is get Reg A. A filly I bred by Consul was one of the top scoring foals at her Keuring and once she turns 3 (and anytime after) she can be represented for Main Mare Book approval. The best farm to discuss options with TB mares and Dutch would be Iron Spring Farm. They have never led me wrong. But my TB/Dutch foals ended up with a fellower COTH'er in VA. It was amazing to watch my first born's success. Now I'm following the 4 yr old filly and in awe of her progress. And just FYI, one mare was from an auction house (thus no papers though we certainly tried, her tatoo was illegible) and the other mare came off the Charlestown backside, with a fresh slab. No out of the world works/races on the track, no top notch show career. But their offspring are kicking butt in the show world. I breed for temperment and conformation, not for past performance. So far, its not led me wrong. But, you have to know how to pick your mare and stallion and the right connections when the training/showing/selling commences.

Please, no slamming me. I'm just stating my OWN personal experience. Not suggestion that just anyone run out, buy or take the first free TB mare with papers and try this out.

Pronzini
Aug. 21, 2009, 10:12 PM
I am curious to find out which "rescue" would be involved here.



Because I don't know what actually went down, I don't feel at liberty to say.

Madeline
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:49 AM
... She is still rehabbing with the weight issue, and I've had her just over a month. It's not time quite yet to worry about extensive training.

...
As for the weight scale...sorry, I am not 100% familiar with it. But the mare was a good 350 underweight...this was BEYOND race fit. Every bone stuck out...you could clearly see her ribs, her hips were sharp and pointy and her spine was so visible...

.

In that case, you should probably familiarize yourself withthe weight scale before "using" it.

Calling a 4/5 underweight and saying that your horse "tied up" in one leg and needs a full set of xrays can only give the impression that you and your vet are reading from some really obscure text and that neither of you should be getting involved in the breeding business. Really.

Snarky madeline.

Pronzini
Aug. 22, 2009, 10:12 AM
I'll see your snark and raise you Madeline. After page after page of how Michael Gill did the OP wrong, we learn that she bought the mare from someone else off Craigslist. So the whole premise of this thread may wrong.

OP, I hope you get your papers. Live and learn. Maybe next time you will make your intentions and your need for papers known to the people you are actually dealing with when you are trying to buy the horse and not by way of online drama afterwards. That's when you have the money and the most leverage.