Navicular in show hunters?

[OneMoreTime]

Does anyone know of successful show hunters who compete with navicular?

I just found out that my big TB hunter has major navicular changes (confirmed w/radiographs). He's slightly off intermittently, but the changes are significant. We're trying corrective shoeing now (thin soles, underslung heels make barefoot impossible). Trainer, vet, and farrier have all discussed neurectomy ("nerving"), b/c he's a pretty nice horse & fairly young (I don't have the $ to just go out and buy another show hunter). I'm not in a hurry to go there, though - MAY be a last resort. Haven't decided yet.

We're in a "wait-and-see" phase right now, but I'd love more information from COTHers.

[kimball1]

Do you have x-rays taken before the lameness to see if there are actually changes? I am only saying that b/c I bought horse with absolutely awful front x-rays, who is still going strong (at lower heights) at age 20. He has never had a problem with his front feet, but when we did the pp the vet thought they were awful, but b/c I had been leasing him and riding him and he was sound we went ahead. As the vet put it, he may have been born with bad x-rays.

[Sunny Side Up]

We're not sure, but the horse I might lease (hopefully) MIGHT has navicular (it's either that ore sole sore; we think it's sole sore). If he did have it, we'd retire him at just the young of of 6 to be a trail horse.
Not much from me, just sharing my experience..

[joiedevie99]

My retired horse has navicular. I managed her with corrective shoeing every 5 weeks for a few years. Some people use isoxuprine, although I never did. When she started to move a bit short in front after a big jump day, we backed her down to the little stuff, then retired her.

IMHO, nerving just to keep the horse rideable isn't right. I would consider it as a last option to make a retired horse pasture sound (instead of euthanizing)- but not to keep one in work. Even at that- there are a lot of risks that you should discuss with the surgeon: horse can't feel abscesses, hot nails, injuries, might be more prone to tripping, nerve might grow back, scar tissue can cause problems, and can be very painful. I'm sorry your horse is having problems, but unfortunately they don't come with any guarantees. If he were mine and corrective shoeing didn't help him, I'd find him a less stressful career or retire him. Doing what's right by the horse isn't always easy on the pocketbook, or on your riding career and progress. Don't ask me how I know...

On a side note, I'd make sure you have the right diagnosis. Lots of horses go sound on ugly x-rays. It could be a collateral ligament injury or some other soft tissue damage that presents with the same symptoms. Do you have old x-rays to compare these with?

[dghunter]

My hunter has slight navicular changes. He had a moderate risk in the one hoof when we bought him and sure enough he now has slight changes six years later. Our vet said that he should be perfectly fine to do what we want to do (3' hunters) and it shouldn't bother him at all. He's on Isox, which I believe is a banned substance so we do have to take him off of it in time for shows. This has not been an issue yet but we'll see when we get there :)

[make x it x so]

My hunter has slight navicular changes. He had a moderate risk in the one hoof when we bought him and sure enough he now has slight changes six years later. Our vet said that he should be perfectly fine to do what we want to do (3' hunters) and it shouldn't bother him at all. He's on Isox, which I believe is a banned substance so we do have to take him off of it in time for shows. This has not been an issue yet but we'll see when we get there :)

I used to have a horse with navicular on Isox (has since been retired to trails when it became apparent that he'd never really get back to 100% sound and had much difficulty getting down the lines) and from what I remember, you can have up to a certain dosage of Isox legally as long as you fill out a medication form for it. I could be wrong, however, (it was a few years ago) so you may want to check the rules on that.

[findeight]

Why sure...depends on degree and you might have to limit the height you jump and watch the footing.

BUT...if it's bad enough to consider nerving a YOUNG horse just so he can jump????

I believe in keeping them comfortable with shoes, pads and maybe a little as needed NSAIDS along with watching the work load and footing.

But JMO, would never nerve a young horse just so it could jump. And have never had those run out heels as they are a deal breaker for me and, again depending on degree, can limit performance even without the navicular. They do not support the leg landing and cost a fortune in shoes, pads, extra farrier sessions when the bar shoes come off.

I'm sorry but not very positive on this one. If it as it sounds like it is, he needs another job, not cutting nerves so he can jump.

[JumpRoo]

Most people will disagree with me but my childerns sm/med was nerved (more than once) and i was only 8 and 9 so of course i didnt know any better and he was the winner every time out. of course at that time he was already older and does his job but he is not 33 and still sound as a dollar with nothing done to him for at least 10 years and he was ridden up until a few years ago.

On another note i have an extremely successful 3' horse that was diagnosed with navicular before we started leasing him. We now own him and 3 years later he is still sound and showing better than ever and he is on Isox although we take him off when he isnt showing for a month or so. He came on Pentoxy but we didnt feel it work for him.

[rabicon]

PLease Please, if you nerve this horse do not jump it!!

[bascher]

My horse had big navicular changes in his foot, but with proper shoeing by my AMAZING farrier, I was able to show him for another season before we decided to retire him. Luckily, the changes did not cause him to go lame or cause him pain during that final season, again due in large part to corrective shoeing and maintenence. During this season, we were reserve champion at the Devon Horse Show in the locals and reserve champion at the NAL finals in Harrisburg. So it is possible to have a competitive show horse with navicular, although by the end of the season we decided that he had done so much for us that we didn't want to push him any further with the navicular changes and the possibility that the changes would gradually get more severe and eventually cause pain. So now he's a very content, fat pasture puff!

And no, he was not nerved and is not nerved now.

[Soldier06]

My mom's dressage horse has it, not horrible but he (like yours) was intermittently off. He was given Tildren last June and then the second shot in August. The difference was night and day (also got corrective shoeing). It was about 2k when all was said and done, and he did colic mildly from the drug the first time (it's an IV drip and if IIRC takes about 3-4 hours).

He doesn't jump regularly, but does school 2'6 often enough that if he was going to be off from the jumping he would be.

It is absolutely the course of action we would take with our other 2 if they needed it. :)

[Madison]

I agree with the person who said make sure you are assessing true changes by comparing against earlier xrays if you have them so that you know what type of decline/degeneration you are seeing. Depending on how long it has been going on, you could also have soft tissue or ligament damage/inflammation, so if the soundness issues don't correct fairly quickly once the foot is back to being balanced, consider better diagnostics such as MRI's and scans to make sure there isn't something else going on. The word "navicular" gets thrown around very loosely and people use it to refer to a lot of different conditions, so it is really important to understand exactly what is going on in your particular case.

You will get very extreme views on nerving, particularly because it has been used in too many inappropriate cases that lead to the nightmare stories people like to pass on, but your vet looking at the xrays and having the full details of your horse's case is the one to best advise you as to whether it is inappropriate or appropriate for your situation. It is not good to use it in a case of a degenerative condition because your horse won't be able to tell you when things are getting worse. It can, however, help horses with chronic heel pain or similar static conditions where the foot structure is solid and not deteriorating. And in the latter cases the horse may well be perfectly safe to ride and jump, but there is no guarantee. Some adjust well, just like when they trot off sound after a vet blocks them to diagnose the problem area, but some have issues such as the tripping or stumbling - it just depends. So if you think about going that route, do it because you want to relieve the pain even if it means the horse is retired - if you happen to be able to ride and/or jump, consider it a bonus, but recognize the possibility that it might not be the end result.

Good luck!

[dghunter]

I used to have a horse with navicular on Isox (has since been retired to trails when it became apparent that he'd never really get back to 100% sound and had much difficulty getting down the lines) and from what I remember, you can have up to a certain dosage of Isox legally as long as you fill out a medication form for it. I could be wrong, however, (it was a few years ago) so you may want to check the rules on that.

Thanks, I'll definitely look into it!

[CBoylen]

Isox is legal for usef and unregulated. Since it is not a banned substance you don't have to file a med report.

[dghunter]

Thanks CB, must not have been remembering my research correctly when I said that ;)

[Rhody Ram]

My horse (who is by nature, an absolute klutz and a half) has been tripping more than usual lately. When I first broke him as a 3 year old, he would get so unbalanced that he would trip over his own front feet and go all the way down, get back up and go along like it never happened. He hasn't fallen all the way down in years. BUT he has been tripping much more than usual recently. He just had his feet done so I know his toes aren't long.

I work extensively on balancing him (he is part QH and naturally carries himself a bit on the forehand). He has been very good about it and his gaits have REALLY improved in the last year. He has always tripped a little bit here and there, but recently it's been too frequent for me to think that nothing is wrong. Sometimes it's over shoddy footing, sometimes not. It seems like he hits a patch of footing he doesn't love and then it causes him to trip harder than should be normal for the instance.

My mom said maybe it's navicular. I REALLY FREAKIN HOPE NOT. His breeding is unknown but you can see there is definitely some QH in him. He has huge feet, not the typical QH feet.

Should I get him checked? Are there any other reasons this could happen? I haven't seen any other issues that are different than normal, other than he recently started cribbing within the past 2 months. We got a new horse in the barn that is a terrible cribber and I think he learned it from the new horse.

[joiedevie99]

Rhody Ram: Yes- if your horse is tripping a lot, you should set up an appontment with your vet for an exam. Your vet will likely want to do a basic lameness exam (flexions and hoof testers) and a basic neurological exam (pulling on tail while walking, etc.). If the tripping is more frequent when you are riding, the vet may just watch you ride to see what is happening. If heel pain turns up, you can discuss doing x-rays to check for navicular changes- but no need to worry about that yet.

[JWB]

I don't tend to frown on nerving as much as a lot of people do. It's a heated subject that is looked at very emotionally by a lot of people. I read Jean S. Dotty's book, The Crumb when I was in elementary school and learned that NERVING IS BAD....

But now days, the procedure is much safer, much more directed and can save the career of a horse that may otherwise be subject to life as a pasture ornament. I have never jumped on a nerved horse personally but we nerved a QH gelding and he's enjoying a lovely dressage career. I chose not to nerve another navicular mare, and went with pain management and a lighter work load (she's trail sound on 1 gram of bute every 2 days).

The difference was the two cases.... With the gelding, he had lousy x-rays from early on. They stayed bad over the course of a year but were not changing. We were also able to make him completely sound with a chemical nerve block, which led our vet to believe the procedure could be done successfully. He's been happy, pain free and in work for 3 years now. I suspect he would be okay for lower hunters but I'd be really hesitant to take a horse that can't feel his heel out jumping in the open or in a jumper ring where there would be tight turns.

The mare was a progressive situation. Her x-rays showed changes over time, which led us to think it is progressing, although it seems to be progressing slowly. Also, have not had much success with trying to block her heels to relieve pain so nerving would be much less likely to work for her. She's in special rocker shoes (her toes hang over) and is very happy and comfortable but again, we haven't asked her to go back to any jumping.

Ultimately, it's up to you, your trainer and your vet. Learn about the science behind it before you decide whether it is for you.

[Blinky]

As there are a million things going on in the hoof if you can I recommend and MRI. This will narrow down the issue so you can determine the right treatment from the get go. There are tons of options you can try first before nerving.

I don't think you are going to get anyone to come out and say "yes my horse is nerved and I show him/her in the 3'6".." because it is considered taboo even though I think there are a ton out there in all types of showing!

Good luck!

[Einstein]

Does anyone know of successful show hunters who compete with navicular?

I just found out that my big TB hunter has major navicular changes (confirmed w/radiographs). He's slightly off intermittently, but the changes are significant. We're trying corrective shoeing now (thin soles, underslung heels make barefoot impossible). Trainer, vet, and farrier have all discussed neurectomy ("nerving"), b/c he's a pretty nice horse & fairly young (I don't have the $ to just go out and buy another show hunter). I'm not in a hurry to go there, though - MAY be a last resort. Haven't decided yet.

We're in a "wait-and-see" phase right now, but I'd love more information from COTHers.

Be very careful with nerving, a lot of things can go wrong.:yes:
Oh and be sure to ask your vet, what are some of the side effects from a neurectomy.:eek:

[Sundown]

My horse has pretty bad navicular changes in his right front and slight in his left, and does the jr hunters. But we only jump every other week. This is also because it's so hard to jump him bellow 3'6"!
But when I was talking to the vet he said that warmbloods (such as my horse) can have changes on their films that don't bother them at all where as a TB with the same changes will be crippled...
I do know of a childrens hunter that is denerved and wins, but the same rider who did it before he was hurt is one who has him now so she knows him really well.

[findeight]

Does anyone know of successful show hunters who compete with navicular?


Let me try a different take...YES, I know, and have owned, quite a few that were navicular. NO I don't know of any over 3' that have been nerved. There may be some that nobody fessed up to. I do know some Ponies but, again, they top out at 3' and none were young by anybody's definition and, IMO, performance was degraded and they were all Childrens Ponies after the procedure anyway (and fat and happy).

NO, I do not think nerving is an all bad, nasty thing. It can give relief and prolong a useful life with adjustments BUT...we all have a threshhold and that's one I would not cross with a young horse trying to make it into a sound competition partner when basic conformation says it won't hold up and it is not, in fact, sound.

I just would not do it at the start of a career so it can actually do the job. That's my threshold.

[CBoylen]

Does anyone know of successful show hunters who compete with navicular?
I just found out that my big TB hunter has major navicular changes (confirmed w/radiographs). He's slightly off intermittently, but the changes are significant. We're trying corrective shoeing now (thin soles, underslung heels make barefoot impossible). Trainer, vet, and farrier have all discussed neurectomy ("nerving"), b/c he's a pretty nice horse & fairly young (I don't have the $ to just go out and buy another show hunter). I'm not in a hurry to go there, though - MAY be a last resort. Haven't decided yet.
We're in a "wait-and-see" phase right now, but I'd love more information from COTHers.
I was on my mobile earlier, so I didn't say as much as I wanted to. There are lots of hunters that show that have intermittent heel pain. There are lots that show that have navicular changes on film. Many times, these two issues do not go together. So, just because your horse has major changes, it doesn't necessarily follow that he's going to be majorly lame. He may continue at his current level of "slightly off" for the rest of his career. He may be sound the rest of his career. He may become lamer. Or he could have had perfect films and be constantly majorly lame. There are no guarantees.
So, deal with what you have to deal with now, which is slightly off. There are lots of options for that. You're trying fixing the shoeing now. Maybe next you want to look at his show medication, or whether he needs a regular medication program like Isox or Aspirin or Pentoxyfylline (needs a med report and you can't use it at the show). Maybe injecting the coffins or the navicular bursa would have a significant effect on him. Or maybe your lameness has nothing to do with your films at all and he's just footsore from summer hard ground. The point is, don't panic. There is a very good chance your horse can be maintained throughout a successful career. If you have to eventually go the nerving route, yes, there are nerved horses that show at all levels of the hunters and jumpers. But, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Keep it for a last resort and explore all your options.

[imapepper]

My retired horse has navicular. I managed her with corrective shoeing every 5 weeks for a few years. Some people use isoxuprine, although I never did. When she started to move a bit short in front after a big jump day, we backed her down to the little stuff, then retired her.

IMHO, nerving just to keep the horse rideable isn't right. I would consider it as a last option to make a retired horse pasture sound (instead of euthanizing)- but not to keep one in work. Even at that- there are a lot of risks that you should discuss with the surgeon: horse can't feel abscesses, hot nails, injuries, might be more prone to tripping, nerve might grow back, scar tissue can cause problems, and can be very painful. I'm sorry your horse is having problems, but unfortunately they don't come with any guarantees. If he were mine and corrective shoeing didn't help him, I'd find him a less stressful career or retire him. Doing what's right by the horse isn't always easy on the pocketbook, or on your riding career and progress. Don't ask me how I know...

On a side note, I'd make sure you have the right diagnosis. Lots of horses go sound on ugly x-rays. It could be a collateral ligament injury or some other soft tissue damage that presents with the same symptoms. Do you have old x-rays to compare these with?

Totally agree with this post. I have a 24 year old with navicular that I have been managing with corrective shoeing for the last 13 years. His changes were slight on the xrays (consistant with age, use and breed according to the vet) but he was always NQR until he got the correct shoeing for his issue. I am considering being a bit more aggressive with his treatment at his age because he can start out NQR but I think that light flatwork and trails will keep him in better shape. I am afraid that complete retirement would make him really stiff and unhappy.

Good luck with your guy. I wouldn't count on him being able to do anything too big if he really is navicular but my old guy was able to school (and occasionally pack a kid around at a show) over 2'6". He was carefully managed and was not allowed to school any bigger than that ever or allowed to jump more than twice a week. Mostly he was allowed one jumping session per week unless it was the week of the show. I would make sure I got 2nd and maybe 3rd opinions so you are treating the right thing. Navicular is a catch all term with some vets for any heel area pain. I have seen horses with really nice xrays like mine look navicular and horses that have been sound for years that have xrays where the navicular bone looks like swiss cheese :eek: