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Blackberry Farm
Aug. 9, 2009, 06:22 PM
I'm sure this seems like a stupid question, but at (approx.)what angle is the upper body when you post the trot?? My trainer and I are playing around a little with my new horse. She doesn't want to be a hunter and needs solid flatwork basics. We played with W/T (and attempted to get me into a dressage seat. OOOHHH my belly!! ;) Anyway, we both enjoyed it!
I sat the trot at her place, but was wondering when I rode today about the posting trot.

Alagirl
Aug. 9, 2009, 06:28 PM
:confused: (head scratching icon would fit better)

I never paid much attention to it. You have like a little tilt forward, but not so that it would show. I mean I have seen folks post straight up and pushing their hips all the way forward...but posting is pretty much posting (no?) elasticly going with the energy...

Blackberry Farm
Aug. 9, 2009, 06:44 PM
"Posting is pretty much posting, no?" God bless you for making things simple. I have seen the hips coming up and"through the hands" too. That seems too forced for my mare- a little up and a little forward. ;) Thx so much for the reply. I had to ask because the seat is very different. I haven't been doing anything but hunters for a bit, and definitely have the hunter butt and power calf.

joiedevie99
Aug. 9, 2009, 06:45 PM
Definitely straight than the 30 degrees in front of the vertical that is proper in the H/J seat. I would say somewhere between 0 and 15 degrees in front of the vertical. It's easier to be more vertical when the horse is carrying more weight on their haunches. At intro and training when the balance is still very much level or slightly on the forehand, the tendency is to want to stay a little more forward, over the center of gravity.

slc2
Aug. 9, 2009, 07:09 PM
No, don't lean forward at the posting trot at all. You needn't come very far out of the saddle, either.

Velvet
Aug. 9, 2009, 07:34 PM
It's not about forcing your hips to your hands. It's about your hips opening as you rise. In hunt seat, you keep your hip angle slightly closed. In dressage, you open the hip angle (as you have been doing at the sitting trot). Slowly bring yourself more to the vertical by allowing your hips to flow more freely open, and closer to being over the pommel of the saddle (not quite, but I'm guessing you get the drift of that). If you do that, your shoulders just need to be over your center of gravity. Since the hips are opening more, the angle automatically changes, and your center of gravity also changes.

If you feel you are "forcing" your hips more open and are exagerrating the position, then it will upset your horse and it will be wrong. You only post as high and as forward as the energy the horse provides through your seat. That energy comes from your horse coming off your leg and going forward. It also is slightly altered into pushing your higher (more loft in the trot) by engaging the horses hindquarters and collecting the energy, as in a collected trot. So, if your new to the sport, you don't rise much out of the saddle unless you have a naturally bouncy trot on your horse with more impulsion than seen in most average horses. This also means you won't feel like you are coming close to clearing the front of the saddle (feeling, not really going in front of the pommel). So in those instances you'll feel like you need to tip a bit more forward more frequently.

What does this all mean? It means that the angle for a beginner (horse and rider) is going to be more like a hunter. When the horse is more engaged and you have more energy coming through your seat, then you straighten a bit more. A good dressage rider training young horses knows that the horse is not strong enough to carry on the hindquarters, and that horses are naturally inclined to be on the forehand, so in the beginning they will lean forward a bit. So let the energy of the horse and your own strength in your position dictate how much you straighten.

Blackberry Farm
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:08 PM
Very nicely worded posts. The goals and methods of the discipline seem very logical and progressive. I think I'll enjoy the idea of the "journey"- well on most days anyway ;). Thanks again.

Janet
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:10 PM
In the rule book, DR117 describes the desired riders position, and says nothing specific about the posting trot.

All the movements should be obtained without apparent effort of the rider. He should be
well balanced with his loins and hips supple, thighs and legs steady and well stretched downward.
The upper part of the body easy, free and erect with the hands low and close together
without, however, touching either each other or the horse and with the thumb as the highest
point; the elbows and arms close to the body enabling the rider to follow the movements of
the horse smoothly and freely and to apply his aids imperceptibly. This is the only position making
it possible for the rider to school his horse progressively and correctly.

But, except for dressage equitation classes, the affect on the horse's trot is more important than the position.

appychik
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:23 PM
No, don't lean forward at the posting trot at all. You needn't come very far out of the saddle, either.

Ditto. Posting in dressage is nothing like posting in the hunter/jumper ring. Small movement out of saddle and very straight in the body, not broken forward like you do in the hunter/jumper ring.

slc2
Aug. 9, 2009, 11:17 PM
One can't post as far up or high as 'the horse's energy thrusts him' with a big moving horse, or one will unbalance the horse. The rider actually controls his rising so that his mass shifts as little as possible. Ie, he should control how much he rises out of the saddle, it takes core strength to do so (so a beginner often isn't able to control his rising much) but core strength is a good thing.

Velvet
Aug. 10, 2009, 12:02 AM
I just remembered why slc is on my ignore list, and why I log on before reading posts out here. She always takes things out of context, just to have something to say that differs from my posts. :sigh:

To quote myself, "You only post as high and as forward as the energy the horse provides through your seat." This says nothing about getting ejected by the energy or flying out over the saddle. I'm assuming the rest of the readers out here knew that I was continuing to address the point of not thrusting ones pelvis to their hands. Rather I was talking about the fact that the horse pushes you out of the saddle and forward and higher (not low and barely rising as happens when a horse uses no energy and is crawling around in a flat, lackluster trot). If you ride to much to your hands you WILL upset your horse because you are thrusting with your hips, thus locking up your lower body and back and also driving at your horse in an incorrect fashion.

I'm guessing everyone else out here understood that. I'll just go back to logging in before reading. It saves me from becoming entertainment for the popcorn crowd. ;)

Alagirl
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:36 AM
roflmao!

And I wondered why you didn't count words....:lol:

slc2
Aug. 10, 2009, 08:14 AM
I was just clarifying Velvet's great post.

Posting trot in dressage, the movement is controlled to not go too high up, the rider's upper body is erect.

merrygoround
Aug. 10, 2009, 08:25 AM
Velvet, your post was right on! One cannot post if the horse is not moving sufficiently forward, and in dressage, the shoulders remain above the hips, they don't lead.;)

Rusty Stirrup
Aug. 10, 2009, 09:18 AM
from Velvet: Pay attention to this.

To quote myself, "You only post as high and as forward as the energy the horse provides through your seat." This says nothing about getting ejected by the energy or flying out over the saddle. I'm assuming the rest of the readers out here knew that I was continuing to address the point of not thrusting ones pelvis to their hands. Rather I was talking about the fact that the horse pushes you out of the saddle and forward and higher (not low and barely rising as happens when a horse uses no energy and is crawling around in a flat, lackluster trot). If you ride to much to your hands you WILL upset your horse because you are thrusting with your hips, thus locking up your lower body and back and also driving at your horse in an incorrect fashion.

Watch a master:

http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffan-peters-and-ravel-warm

Alagirl
Aug. 10, 2009, 09:50 AM
from Velvet: Pay attention to this.

To quote myself, "You only post as high and as forward as the energy the horse provides through your seat." This says nothing about getting ejected by the energy or flying out over the saddle. I'm assuming the rest of the readers out here knew that I was continuing to address the point of not thrusting ones pelvis to their hands. Rather I was talking about the fact that the horse pushes you out of the saddle and forward and higher (not low and barely rising as happens when a horse uses no energy and is crawling around in a flat, lackluster trot). If you ride to much to your hands you WILL upset your horse because you are thrusting with your hips, thus locking up your lower body and back and also driving at your horse in an incorrect fashion.

Watch a master:

http://www.barnmice.com/video/steffan-peters-and-ravel-warm

and?

That horse has enough thrust to launch you to the moon, and just because 'a master' does it, is it correct?

rabicon
Aug. 10, 2009, 09:59 AM
Agree with velvet. For example I have some photos of me and my guy. This is when he doesn't give me much and well I tend to post high then (reverting to bad habits myself)

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2127705800103994293BZHJxF

No I'm not perfect but you'll get the idea, this is when he pushes more and I'm not working so hard for the trot.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2064410850103994293VotJYT
This one is old
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2331438070103994293kKUKAM

But I do stay vertical with a straight back.

Alagirl
Aug. 10, 2009, 11:25 AM
evil facebook links! :(

rabicon
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:04 PM
I'm sorry, lets see if I can get those on my webshots, hold on.

rabicon
Aug. 10, 2009, 01:17 PM
There fixed, all on webshots now :winkgrin: