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View Full Version : Age 15: Am I being reasonable? WWYD?



spmoonie
Aug. 8, 2009, 08:33 PM
Alrighty, this may be long, but I would really appreciate everyone's oppion.

I work at an AQHA type barn that is having issues selling horses, partially due to the economy, partially due to very poor marketing. At the barn, we have about 7 very capable hunter/jumper type horses, but my post will deal with one in particular, we'll call her "The Horse." Now, although several other girls (including me) that work at the barn take weekly lessons with a good hunter jumper instructor, the barn owner really has no knowledge of the hunter jumper world. Due to this lack of knowledge, I feel she is not advertising the horses the way they should be (she is advertising to the AQHA world, back yard type riders, etc that arent really interested in the hunter jumper type). She wants to get the horses sold, she just really doesnt know how to get them sold to the right people.
So here is the deal: The barn owner is desperate to get some horses sold (the one I ride in particular). I came up with this plan: I will offer to take "The Horse" to a show or two, school her around, just get her seen. I will pay all show/travel expenses, however, If I get the horse sold, I get maybe a 3-5% commision on her. By the way, I am 15 years old, a very capable rider, and feel as if I could get this horse sold quickly. At age 15, do you think that is too much to ask? Should I just shut up and let them do things their way even if they arent working? I have made several suggestions on ways to get "The Horse" sold, but they never really take me seriously because of my age. WWYD? :confused:

I dont want to act like a smart alleck kid, but at the same time, I KNOW this horse would be sold quickly, she just needs to get seen, and the barn owner just doesnt understand the hunter world, nor does she take me seriously because I am so young.

ApolloGirl
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:00 PM
The number one thing that I hated when I was your age was people telling me I was too young and didn't know anything, when if fact I knew way more than most. IF you have a good feeling that you could sell this horse, then you probably can. Explain to the owner that they can continue to advertise their way while you work your magic to get the horse sold. Explain to them that you will absorb the costs of showing, ect. Have everything in writing and make sure your parents sign it too, because you can't enter into a contract or agreement on your own until you are 18.

When you talk to the owner, go with a game plan, know what shows you want to enter, and how long you think it will take for you to sell the horse. Don't forget the 4 P's of Marketing!
Product = the horse
Price=$$
Promotion = Showing, Advertising - online is often free
Placement = selling to those who what a hunter.

On another note, I would ask for a written reference, that you can keep in case you need it. They come in handy for every thing from College admissions to getting a jobs, or in case you ever want to do this sort of thing again.


Good Luck

mrsbradbury
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:28 PM
I would follow Apollo girls advice... then, have fun, explore and experience a good ride. We all started a bit like you.

brummelhorsefarm
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:29 PM
I would go for 10% commission and no show fees. You are doing them a favor and increasing the horse's value. (:

RedMare01
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:33 PM
Not too young.

However, I would write up a business plan (very formal, everything written out clearly) and do a nice presentation along with it. If they go along with it (especially if you'll be paying show fees), have them and your parents sign a contract stating what % commission you'll be getting (and I would not go lower than 5%). Good luck!

Caitlin

Soldier06
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:37 PM
I did it with a dressage horse. I got paid to ride her, and my lessons, with my trainer of choice were paid for (by the owner). It was a bad ending, but had nothing to do with the relationship between me and the owner, but the barn and the owner (barn trainer trained his other horses, they had a falling out, he left with all his horses). Saw him a few years later, and told me he should have left the mare with me. :sadsmile:

It worked great, and I did it again with another horse, this one ended better though, he's now my horse. :lol:

It's a fun experience, and your learn alot and look at things with less emotion/more unbiased view because they're not your personal horse.:)

MintHillFarm
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:42 PM
You sound like a girl with a solid plan. Don't sell yourself short either. It all makes sense...

I would advise that you put your plan on paper and present to the owner. Personally, I would not be shy about asking for 10%, the standard commission.

I have a feeling she is going to be very pleased with your efforts...Let us know what happens.

ponies123
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:51 PM
I would go for 10% commission and no show fees. You are doing them a favor and increasing the horse's value. (:

That's comparable to the price they would pay for a real trainer taking the horse on. I think her number is more accurate for a 15 year old. Although I may seek 3-5% plus maybe 1/2 or all of the show fees if they'd go for that.

Lucassb
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:31 PM
If you are that sure that you can get the horse sold, why not buy it yourself and then re-sell for a profit?

Janet
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:34 PM
When my sister was only a LITTLE older thatn you (she had her driver's license, but was still in igh school, she did something similar.

Slightly different formula. She and the owner agreed on the proce the owner wanted to get. My sisiter paid all teh showing and advertising expenses, and got to keep the difference between the agreed price to the owner and the price the buyer paid.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:38 PM
I dont want to act like a smart alleck kid, but at the same time, I KNOW this horse would be sold quickly, she just needs to get seen, and the barn owner just doesnt understand the hunter world, nor does she take me seriously because I am so young.

well

to be completely honest I could not see taking the advice of a minor on this sort of thing esp in an economy where things are tight already...

look at it this way...if you only had $10 left would you give it to the nearest 7yo because they had a good idea ?? honestly you'd say no,it's my last $10 and I need it to work for me

in better times people take more risks...in tight times people get very very close with their money and their investments in general....

you might be right on the money...

or not

regards

spmoonie
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:40 PM
If you are that sure that you can get the horse sold, why not buy it yourself and then re-sell for a profit?

I would love to do that, but I cannot afford to keep two horses, nor could I afford to buy her in the first place. Im a broke 15 year old looking for some opportunities! :winkgrin:

unclewiggly
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:45 PM
The only fly I see in the ointment is what happens if "Ther Horse" gets injured or injures someone while you are off the property. Who is going to be responsible for liabilty and damages/expenses? Who will assume risk while transporting to an from shows.
Who will sign the entry forms and be Owner/Trainer. Will you show recognized where drug testing is possible (not saying you are) but **t happens.
Those things are what jump up and bite.

spmoonie
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:45 PM
well

to be completely honest I could not see taking the advice of a minor on this sort of thing esp in an economy where things are tight already...

look at it this way...if you only had $10 left would you give it to the nearest 7yo because they had a good idea ?? honestly you'd say no,it's my last $10 and I need it to work for me

in better times people take more risks...in tight times people get very very close with their money and their investments in general....

you might be right on the money...

or not

regards

If its a good idea, why not? 7 years old or 77 years old, a good idea is a good idea. JMO.

spmoonie
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:48 PM
The only fly I see in the ointment is what happens if "Ther Horse" gets injured or injures someone while you are off the property. Who is going to be responsible for liabilty and damages/expenses? Who will assume risk while transporting to an from shows.
Who will sign the entry forms and be Owner/Trainer. Will you show recognized where drug testing is possible (not saying you are) but **t happens.
Those things are what jump up and bite.


If the BO chooses to go through with the idea, My mom and I will most likely take full responsibility. My trainer will actually be at the shows, but Im not sure how that would work out yet.

mrsbradbury
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:57 PM
I am assuming this horse will be attending local/ 4-H / schooling type shows, no need for trainer, drug, association fees. Since OP & parents are willing to swing show expenses. I also gather they have own shipping arrangements.

Not a bad idea to have your parent's lawyer write a release of liabiliyy in case of accident/ loss when horse is off premises.

spmoonie
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:58 PM
I am assuming this horse will be attending local/ 4-H / schooling type shows, no need for trainer, drug, association fees. Since OP & parents are willing to swing show expenses. I also gather they have own shipping arrangements.

Not a bad idea to have your parent's lawyer write a release of liabiliyy in case of accident/ loss when horse is off premises.

You are correct, these would be local rated shows (equivalent to "C", maybe some "B" stuff).

equestrianlove
Aug. 8, 2009, 11:01 PM
I'm a year older than you, so I know how it feels to be a broke, horsie-loving, horsie-owning teen... and I would say go for it.! Not only does this make "The Horse" more valuble, it gives you experience and even promotes you as a rider/ maybe trainer! However, have fun showing against real trainers in open divisions because you are being paid to compete and ride the horse. Also, if something were to happen... say he gets loose and trips and gets injured... thats a sticky situation. Are you and your family willing to pay the vet bills? Or someone runs into your trailer, damaging the truck and/or trailer? Just be sure to have all your bases covered! If this wouldn't work, no trainer would have a job!! Good luck!!! :)

Cloverbarley
Aug. 8, 2009, 11:31 PM
My daughter is 12 years old and I give her 10% commission on any horse she helps train/show/sell, so I think your 3-5% commission charge is too low. After all if the horse doesn't sell, you get nothing, but if it does then you get something worthwhile and the owner benefits as well as you.

Best of luck. :)

Tamara in TN
Aug. 8, 2009, 11:33 PM
If its a good idea, why not? 7 years old or 77 years old, a good idea is a good idea. JMO.

all kinds of people seem to have good ideas when their own money is not involved...

Flamboyant
Aug. 8, 2009, 11:39 PM
I'm 21, but not a professional, and did something similar with a few horses someone had for sale. I took about 15%, but I did absolutely all of the riding, actually saw a large improvement in the horses, turning them into something that was more sell-able and arranged all of the viewings. It worked out well for both of us!

I'd say it doesn't hurt to talk to them about it, sharing your ideas and what you think you can do for them.

Quin
Aug. 9, 2009, 01:54 AM
Be careful - if you are at shows with your own trainer (not affiliated with the owner of The Horse) and the horse sells there, your own trainer may feel entitled to a commission. Get an agreement from your own trainer as well as with The Horse's owner.

fourmares
Aug. 9, 2009, 01:55 AM
I did basically what the OP is suggesting when I was her age. It's a great experience. I doesn't hurt to ask the owner. If she says yes, you have a fun new project and the chance to make a little extra money in the process... since these are people that already know you and they already trust you to ride the horse, I don't think you need to make a formal presentation or business plan unless you want to do it for the practice.

Sunny Side Up
Aug. 9, 2009, 02:53 AM
Ugg, I'm your same age and I HATE getting acted like I'm 5. I understand liability purposes and everything, but its just so annoying after awhile (actually, after a few hours =P). I'm almost in your same situation aswell (except I'm not selling the horse(s) and they're not for sale either). I get to show them but don't get paid (and I pay for everything at the show).
I suggest talking to the person just casually. Maybe just be like "Well, you know "horse" could do great the the h/j ring..Maybe one day I could take him to a show to get him seen..I could pay for everything, however a 5% commision would be nice" Or something..obviously not like that since that doesn't sound the professional at all, but along those lines.
I don't know how your BO is about liability, but mine with her horses is pretty cool about it -- I just ask and she trailers me to shows. I don't have to sign a liability except for release, but that's about it. Then again, she's become a family friend and trusts me a lot.
That's probably pointless, but best of luck and keep us updated of how it goes! ;)

juniormom
Aug. 9, 2009, 03:06 AM
I agree in that your trainer may want a partial commission too. I would offer to pay the show fees upfront and keep copies of all of your bills. If the horse sells, ask that they reimburse your show fees, plus nothing less than a 5% commission. To me, the percentage would depend on the price of the horse as well. You may want to get your h/j trainer to help you in this at the beginning. Perhaps you could tell your trainer that you want $_______ (flat amount) + repayment of all of your show expenses. Decide on some amount that seems reasonable to get your start in this. (Judge this by the price of their horse.) Then, your trainer could add their commission. That way, you aren't "burning your bridges" or making your h/j trainer mad. If the horse doesn't sell, the owner doesn't owe you anything. I would be sure to ask the owner if the horse is insured or perhaps suggest that they get it insured. As well as considering something in writing about your specific liability. If the horse pulls his/her shoe at the show, do you pay for those expenses? (probably yes) If the horse gets ill, etc., who pays? Good luck!! You should be able to get it done! Don't doubt yourself..............(I am older and am far from your age group, but believe that your post was well written and that you seem mature, etc.) Have fun and keep us posted! :D

Individualblue07
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:06 AM
Ok... Little side question... but if you ride and school/show a horse to help sell it and then take the commision off of the sale... wouldnt you be considered a professional?

I mean because you are technically offering a service and in the end you will gain a profit from it.

Just wondering.:confused:

juniormom
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:57 AM
Not if you are a junior...........

ponies123
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:10 AM
Ok... Little side question... but if you ride and school/show a horse to help sell it and then take the commision off of the sale... wouldnt you be considered a professional?

I mean because you are technically offering a service and in the end you will gain a profit from it.

Just wondering.:confused:

Yes if you are 18+, but juniors are not subject to amateur/professional rules. So she can do this through her 17 y/o show year then must either stop and be an ammy or continue and become a pro.

Einstein
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:23 AM
If you decide to do this, please get it writing.
I think your mom will have to be involved, a minor can't enter into a legal contract.:cool:

Ajierene
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:54 AM
If I did not know anything about a discipline as far as selling horses and some teenager came up to me with this idea, my first thoughts would be: where is she getting the money for the shows? Are her parents paying for the shows and she's just getting money? How well is she going to show off my horse if she is taking her own horse to a show as well? How much is she going to be able to ride my horse between her horse and school?

Come up with a plan for riding and showing, involve your parents, and present it to the owner. The plan should include the criteria for you getting commission (say you take the horse to five shows then some hunter person shows up at the barn and rides then buys the horse, someone that did not necessarily see you at the show....then you are likely out a commission, so be prepared).

Also, have a plan for riding and showing to present to the owner. Have at least one parent there to sign a contract and show support for your endeavors (and maybe where the show money is coming from/ going to-are your parents paying and you paying them back?).

If you can, strike a deal with your trainer. The owner may be worried that you are looking for 3-5% and the trainer would be looking for an additional 10%. The owner sees their profit slowly slipping through his fingers.

I have helped sell horses before, in high school, but I only got free rides out of it. Not owning a horse in high school, that's was enough for me!

shawneeAcres
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:58 AM
I am not saying this is or is not reasonable,but a few things come to mind. First, the OP may be quite a good rider, then again she may not. SInce I don't know her at all, I cannot say. However, a good horse can look very bad with a bad rider, and so if I allow someone to take one of my sale horses out to a show where the "World" is going to see them, I really want to be as certain as possible the horse has a good chance of looking good! so that is a consideration. Obviously there are liability issues, and the OP already said she cannot afford to have two horses, so what DOES happen if the horse sustains a career ending injury (it happens) or something that is going to take lots of $$$ to fix? Third, in this economy, just getting a horse out to a show does not guarantee a sale. A lot more than that is playing into whether or not buyers are buying. If said horse is green (my assumption, could be wrong), is going to this show going to accomplish anything in terms of selling her? Cannot say for certain, but probably not unless you bring home some REALLY good ribbons. There is the off chance someone sees the horse at the show and loves it, but I have only had that happen a few of times in all the years I have been marketing horses and taking them to shows.

shanky
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:12 AM
Why isn't the BO seeking the trainer's help in marketing these horses?

Vitriolic
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:14 AM
I suggest talking to the person just casually. Maybe just be like "Well, you know "horse" could do great the the h/j ring..Maybe one day I could take him to a show to get him seen..I could pay for everything, however a 5% commision would be nice" Or something..obviously not like that since that doesn't sound the professional at all, but along those lines.


I think that is a nice approach. Doesn't come off too uppity and since the OP thinks the horse will sell fast....

I do agree that while you may love a horse, it is often still tough to sell in this saturated market. The buyer often feels there is a better/cheaper one around the corner. I took several greenies to schooling shows over a few summers. I spent thousands and didn't sell one through that means. It did help to go to attractive grounds turned out well to get good video and pics, but in the end, all were sold word of mouth to pros. I found at these small shows there were others trying to sell, trying to get miles on greenies, breeders, or others who weren't shopping. Everytime someone complimented my mount and I said the horse was for sale, they said theirs was too! It was not a good expediture of my money, but I had fun. :) I would definitely encourage you to try it, you have nothing to lose, but don't feel bad if it doesn't work. :)

Meliora
Aug. 9, 2009, 03:03 PM
I have a small problem with this...The horse world is made up of people that wish to be a professional at too young of an age. You should be LEARNING at 15 years old, not acting as a professional dealing with legal ramifications that you may not understand fully (I need a lawer to understand all of them). Maybe you could ask your trainer to help you sell the horse. The owner could pay for your showing, and your trainer can handle the "deal" aspect and the trainer would make a commission. You would make no money, but make sure to be involved with the "selling" aspect with your trainer so you will learn. If you become a great catch rider as a junior, it makes it much easier to become a pro once you turn 18. You will have the contacts and the knowledge you need to begin a buisness. This is not child's play, and I think asking for a commission and handling things yourself may harm you in the long run. Right now I think that education is your best bet...not trying to make commissions and money.

spmoonie
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:05 PM
I have a small problem with this...The horse world is made up of people that wish to be a professional at too young of an age. You should be LEARNING at 15 years old, not acting as a professional dealing with legal ramifications that you may not understand fully (I need a lawer to understand all of them). Maybe you could ask your trainer to help you sell the horse. The owner could pay for your showing, and your trainer can handle the "deal" aspect and the trainer would make a commission. You would make no money, but make sure to be involved with the "selling" aspect with your trainer so you will learn. If you become a great catch rider as a junior, it makes it much easier to become a pro once you turn 18. You will have the contacts and the knowledge you need to begin a buisness. This is not child's play, and I think asking for a commission and handling things yourself may harm you in the long run. Right now I think that education is your best bet...not trying to make commissions and money.


The only problem is that the owner does not seem to see the importance in getting the horse shown, therfore she doesnt want to fork out the money to do it. We have done like 3 small shows, but thats it. Thats why I am planning to pay for show expenses. I would be happy to do it just for education, but If I am paying to show, then I am going to have to get reimbursed somehow. I cant afford to do this for free with a horse that doesnt belong to me.

Meliora
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:16 PM
As a catch rider all that you would pay for is your hotel and food at the shows. If you wanted to also groom then your trainer should cover these expenses as well. If you do not have this opportunity with your current trainer, then maybe she could direct you to a trainer where you will have this opportunity. Right now, a 15 year old cannot legally sell a horse anyway or act as a broker. Your trainer will have to do this, and they are going to want a 10%- 15% commission. If your trainer wants to pay for your showing that might be an avenue, or maybe reimburse you after the horse sells. Make sure to discuss this first, because sometimes the horses price is negotiated down and the commissions are cut (you might get left out if this happens). I was 15 once, and I wanted to do this as well. Instead, I was able to ride and show for free, and learned tremendous amounts in that time and made some great contacts that I still use today. Good Luck!:)

PONY751
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:26 PM
I commend you for being an enterprising young lady, most children nowadays are content to just sit on their laurels and have things handed to them. I was quite the same as you at your age. I see nothing wrong with you expressing your interest in getting the horse sold. However, be careful, as there are many legal issues attached to everything these days. Have an adult help you write up a proposal that the owner can read and consider. From your writing skills, it seems that you are very capable of getting your point across on paper. Make sure whatever you do it is all in writing, then there can be no dispute. Good luck to you and keep on striving to find new ways to increase your cash flow.

P.S. I would ask for 10%. That is the industry standard and it should not matter what age you are. A horse sold is a horse sold.

eqrider1234
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:57 PM
all kinds of people seem to have good ideas when their own money is not involved...

She is the one that would be paying for show fees so I am not sure where you are going with this? :confused:

RockinHorse
Aug. 9, 2009, 07:39 PM
... but If I am paying to show, then I am going to have to get reimbursed somehow. I cant afford to do this for free with a horse that doesnt belong to me.


I was originally in favor of your proposal, however, based on the above statement, I do not think you should try to work this deal out with the horse's owner. No matter how nice it is, there is absolutely no guarantee this horse will sell due to your efforts so it is very possible (even likely) that you will be out the show costs without any reimbursement.

mrsbradbury
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:04 PM
You are correct, these would be local rated shows (equivalent to "C", maybe some "B" stuff).

Here in, will complicate things, local rated be it C or B, is still governed by USEF, you will need appropriate signatures, may or may not subjected to testing, and the costs aften aren't terribly different than an A show.

Now, with more good points made from other posters, you and your mom will have to decide if you can ultimately eat the show expenses, the horse may take up to a year or more to sell. While getting it out to a few shows gives it mileage, I believe I have read that you have already shown it a few times with your trainer. Why isn't the trainer more involved with this? Have you discussed this with the trainer? What are her thoughts on this process.

I offer "show leases" on horses owned by my farm, and the rider is responsibilty for the cost of the show, and the cost for me to prep and coach them, as well as pay to use the horse. Even my very good riders pay to play. Some of these horses could be for sale as well, it is not neccissarily their business.

I find nothing wrong with you attempting to make a little money, and learn to play the game; however now that you have offered some more scattered details, I am confused about the professional hierarchy in your operation. In your first post, I read it picturing a smaller farm, with what you feel are attractive horses, that would be for sale in the under $5000 range, that you and your mom would take to non-sanctioned $8 horse shows for the day.

Now I read, you want to attend rated (however not A), shows and there is a trainer available. So, I woulod think that if the BO was serious about marketing these horses they would put it in the trainer's hands. You NEED to talk to the trainer about your idea, then go from there.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:08 PM
She is the one that would be paying for show fees so I am not sure where you are going with this? :confused:


she is asking to be entrusted with an investment of time and money...namely the horse itself...I hate to rain on any parades really but does said 15 yo pay for the horse if showing over a jump it breaks it's leg and is destroyed or becomes injured and is non salvageable

while she can pay the show "fees", can she pay for the loss of the horse ??

Gry2Yng
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:45 PM
I'm 21, but not a professional, and did something similar with a few horses someone had for sale. I took about 15%, but I did absolutely all of the riding, actually saw a large improvement in the horses, turning them into something that was more sell-able and arranged all of the viewings. It worked out well for both of us!

I'd say it doesn't hurt to talk to them about it, sharing your ideas and what you think you can do for them.

Sorry if someone already said this, but yes, you are a professional per USEF rules. You took money for riding a horse and you are over 18. Maybe you weren't over 18 at the time.

findeight
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:53 PM
Well, somebody else may be in for a commission because, at 15, you cannot enter into a contract and it's not your horse anyway...so somebody is gong to be doing the negotiating.

The biggest issue I can see is not age at all...it's crap market unless you have an established name and can prove the horse can do as advertised and prove it with show results-which cost money.

I'm thinking your barn owner/horse owner does not have the money to haul it to shows and is not that ignorant about how to sell a horse, they just can't afford the showing costs, like alot of people these days.

I would be cautious and not start anticipating any return for the money you will sink into showing this one, certainly not quickly now that we are at the end of the show season looking at feeding them over the winter.

I don't care if you are 40, taking on expenses for an unestablished show horse in anticipation of recouping them when it sells are...well...they are NOT selling.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:56 PM
she is asking to be entrusted with an investment of time and money...namely the horse itself...I hate to rain on any parades really but does said 15 yo pay for the horse if showing over a jump it breaks it's leg and is destroyed or becomes injured and is non salvageable

while she can pay the show "fees", can she pay for the loss of the horse ??

I personally don't know any trainers or catch riders who would pay me for my horse if it broke a leg over a jump at a show. That is what insurance is for.

findeight
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:58 PM
Ahhh...but we do not know if this one is insured-it's not a given. Especially of the owner is not getting it to shows because, as I suspect, they cannot afford it.

magnolia73
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:20 PM
If you can't afford to show without the horse selling, you should not do it.

BUT, how about getting the owner together with your trainer, see if the owner will pay show fees (your trainer in a pro division, you in a junior division), give your trainer a commission and you get some free showing? Or split the commission with your trainer. Then its not a kid selling the horse, has a pro behind it, and you can CYA with a contract.

That said, kudos for being enterprising.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:22 PM
I personally don't know any trainers or catch riders who would pay me for my horse if it broke a leg over a jump at a show. That is what insurance is for.


right.... full loss coverage on a cheapie QH hunter the OP thinks will sell if she's allowed to haul it to C rated shows ???

everyone always wants to tell us what and how to run this farm...it normally starts with.....

"if you would just <insert something that involves loss of our investment> you could <inset something about making money maybe> and then I could help you out with that "

translated loosely "you take all the risk, trusting me with your money and we BOTH win" but in the end, there is only one loser if things go wrong and that is me/us/ the farm.....

what would the OP be out if things go wrong...some show fees maybe...

and the owner of the horse?

the loss of the use of the horse,maybe the horse itself,maybe the OP does such a sucky job on this majikal C circuit that no one wants to look at the horse afterward, maybe she ruins the horse...

she's 15...she goes on about her life out only some show fees...10 years from now no one knows or cares that something went wrong...except the horse and the horses owner...

it's not a risk I would assume as an owner nor could I remain silent for the sake of being PC and "encouragement"

regards

HJPony
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:35 PM
I have a small problem with this...The horse world is made up of people that wish to be a professional at too young of an age. You should be LEARNING at 15 years old, not acting as a professional dealing with legal ramifications that you may not understand fully (I need a lawer to understand all of them). Maybe you could ask your trainer to help you sell the horse. The owner could pay for your showing, and your trainer can handle the "deal" aspect and the trainer would make a commission. You would make no money, but make sure to be involved with the "selling" aspect with your trainer so you will learn. If you become a great catch rider as a junior, it makes it much easier to become a pro once you turn 18. You will have the contacts and the knowledge you need to begin a buisness. This is not child's play, and I think asking for a commission and handling things yourself may harm you in the long run. Right now I think that education is your best bet...not trying to make commissions and money.
I completely agree with your post.


For the original poster, truck on sista'!! I am a junior rider as well, and have dealt with similar situations. To answer your question: Yes, this is definitely reasonable. In my opinion, the owner of the horse should take an interest in paying for said horse to show and hopefully be seen. In fact, said owner should tip you as well as trainer if all goes well. However I am not sure of the "personal level" you are dealing on with said owner/horse.
I would certainly expect to be paid for my efforts although I would not expect a commission type deal. In my experience, I was paid solely for the show or ride, never for the purchase price of the horse or pony. At fifteen(not that I'm all that much older..) I would take this opportunity as a learning experience that you can't put a price on. Therefore don't ask to take commission, only what you make per hour(or however you are paid).

Work something out with owner of animal and your trainer for the show ring. In all my travels I have learned that it is acceptable for the owner to foot the bill and for you to make a bit on the side. Assuming the horse has insurance, the owner is responsible for injury of said horse. Approach owner about making a sales ad and post it at horse show. When your horse show friends ask about horse, make sure to include the "for sale" part.. word of mouth will be all you need if priced reasonably.

spmoonie
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:09 PM
right.... full loss coverage on a cheapie QH hunter the OP thinks will sell if she's allowed to haul it to C rated shows ???

Sorry I didnt clarify. We arent dealing with a cheapy quarter horse type. It is a VERY fancy pony that actually could be capable of winning on the A circuit, she is just not being marketed to the right crowd.

To everyone else, I metioned taking said pony to a show next weekend to school around, maybe do a few classes. I did not metion anything about the commision, nor did I offer to pay any expenses. The BO said she would think about it, which usually is Yes, but no guaruntees. Thanks for your help everyone! :)

I do agree about only doing it for experience, but my point was that If I was paying for the shows, I would have to recieve some type of payment, otherwise, I might as well just show my own horse.

shanky
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:15 PM
Sorry I didnt clarify. We arent dealing with a cheapy quarter horse type. It is a VERY fancy pony that actually could be capable of winning on the A circuit, she is just not being marketed to the right crowd.


Again I will ask: Why isn't the trainer helping to market this (potential) world beater?

janedoe726
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:23 PM
My question comes from the other side of the equation: Who (especially in this soft market) is going to buy said fancy pony from a 15-year-old? OP, I'm not saying you can't do it, I just know that the pros are having a hard enough time selling right now (look at the Pony Finals Auction...) and I think taking on this task might be a tad unrealistic in this economy.

Trixie
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:44 PM
I do agree about only doing it for experience, but my point was that If I was paying for the shows, I would have to recieve some type of payment, otherwise, I might as well just show my own horse.

While I certainly applaud anyone looking to work and be enterprising - particularly at 15 - I agree with some of the other posters.

Insisting on a return isn't the same thing as "doing it for the experience." In most fields people don't get paid much if at all to gain "experience." This comes from doing, just like internships. Once you GAIN experience, THEN you get your return. Particularly since you're not the one taking a real risk - a few show bills, in this world, is not a real risk - the owner of the horse is taking the risk. How well do you know marketing in the horse industry?

That's not to say you shouldn't be compensated for you work. However, it's unrealistic to think that you'll get the same response or return as a professional trainer or someone who has experience.

As an adult and potential buyer, it would have to be one heck of a worldbeater for me to buy from a 15 year old with no trainer backing. And even then, it's still rather unlikely.

There's also not a lot of market right now. Horses aren't really selling. And while she "could be winning on the 'A' circuit" - at the moment, she isn't, and there's no guarantee that she will. That makes her a prospect, not a known good risk. And there are a heck of a lot of cheap good prospects.

Be sure to clearly spell out what you're liable for and what the owner is liable for.

Mara
Aug. 9, 2009, 11:34 PM
If you can't afford to show without the horse selling, you should not do it.

BUT, how about getting the owner together with your trainer, see if the owner will pay show fees (your trainer in a pro division, you in a junior division), give your trainer a commission and you get some free showing? Or split the commission with your trainer. Then its not a kid selling the horse, has a pro behind it, and you can CYA with a contract.

That said, kudos for being enterprising.

I like this idea as well. You get some showing experience, and it will get your name and your face out there for people outside your barn to see.

spmoonie
Aug. 10, 2009, 12:10 AM
Again I will ask: Why isn't the trainer helping to market this (potential) world beater?

The trainer has helped a lot, but once again, the owner doesnt seem to see the importance in getting the pony seen to the right crowd. She has been preoccupied with AQHA stuff, however desperately needs to get said pony sold. My trainer makes suggestions, however in the end, its up to the BO, so not much has been done.

carolinahunterjumper
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:41 AM
That sounds totally reasonable, even with your age. To help with selling the horse, you could try advertising on the internet, if you haven't already.

magnolia73
Aug. 10, 2009, 08:29 AM
the loss of the use of the horse,maybe the horse itself,maybe the OP does such a sucky job on this majikal C circuit that no one wants to look at the horse afterward, maybe she ruins the horse

It's not like she is running Rolex or the Tevis Cup or the Suicide Race. The last 3 shows at our barn....exactly one horse limped out of the ring after a fall that could happen anywhere. (he ended up fine). Yes, the horse could take a wrong step and tear a suspensory and be crippled for life, but it could just as easily jump around nice, catch someone's eye and be out of your hair.

Last I checked, nothing with horses was risk free, even standing in a pasture, where...ummm...not likely to sell.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 10, 2009, 08:35 AM
It's not like she is running Rolex or the Tevis Cup or the Suicide Race. The last 3 shows at our barn....exactly one horse limped out of the ring after a fall that could happen anywhere. (he ended up fine). Yes, the horse could take a wrong step and tear a suspensory and be crippled for life, but it could just as easily jump around nice, catch someone's eye and be out of your hair.

Last I checked, nothing with horses was risk free, even standing in a pasture, where...ummm...not likely to sell.



exactly....so trusting it off the farm, with a 15 yo ,in a world I (as the OP owner) know nothing about, is something I need to add to the mix ??

Cita
Aug. 10, 2009, 09:39 AM
Especially if it's a nice pony, wouldn't a younger person riding it around (assuming they do well, look nice, etc.) make it more attractive to potential buyers than if an adult were riding it? "Hey, that's pony's so nice to ride even a kid can do it!" etc.

As for the "nobody would buy from a 15 year old" - couldn't the 15 year old respond to any inquiries by, "Yes, this lovely pony is for sale, owner is asking $XX,XXX - here is owner's phone number!"?

magnolia73
Aug. 10, 2009, 09:47 AM
I don't know- depends on how motivated you are to sell the horse. How well do you know the 15 year old? There is a 15 year old at my barn, and I would trust her to take my horse to a show, hauled by her parents with no trainer. There are also 15 year olds I would not let touch my horse.... more than one trainer in that category as well.

If you need to get the horse sold, and you are an AQHAer, and the AQHA people won't buy... you need a new outlet. If someone experienced in HJ comes along- someone you know- and says - "hey, she'd be marketable as a SS horse".... why not give it a try? If you brought the horse to my barn's show, you could do a division for $60. Get seen by probably 8-10 local trainers who have a constant stream of kids looking for ponies.... trainers who are a pretty good network and probably would not waste time responding to a flyer for an AQHA pony, but boy, if he jumps around cute with a kid are going to respond.

To the OP, I will say, perhaps selling the pony is not as urgent of a matter as you perceive.

findeight
Aug. 10, 2009, 10:24 AM
Sorry I didnt clarify. We arent dealing with a cheapy quarter horse type. It is a VERY fancy pony that actually could be capable of winning on the A circuit, she is just not being marketed to the right crowd.

...but my point was that If I was paying for the shows, I would have to recieve some type of payment, otherwise, I might as well just show my own horse.

And you know it will be successful on the A circuit because???? You like it? Or have extensive A show experience giving you the ability to evaluate it.

And how many people do you personally know that would buy this horse?

Horses are sold more by word of mouth and the reputation of the agent/trainer/seller, not by simply turning up with one.

And..."if I was paying for shows, I would HAVE to receive some form of payment"??? Are you kidding? You are not in a position to demand anything if it's not your horse.

While I think it's great to show some initiative and there is nothing wrong with the basic idea here, you have to realize the owner calls the shots and she may not be in a hurry to sell and may not have the money to haul it to the A shows where costs are triple and competition such that "nice" horses are a dime a dozen and all for sale. If owner wanted to campaign, and could afford it, and sell at the As she would do it. You can suggest it but expecting her to just turn it over to you to haul and expecting...no...demanding payment will doom your deal. The owner may not be as clueless as you seem to think.

gottagrey
Aug. 10, 2009, 03:33 PM
You are a smart kid but are 15 - are you working/gainfully employed? How are you planning to pay for these expenses - ie. showing, trailering, coaching? to market this fabulous sale horse? If not one would assume your parents /relative/mentor would be paying all these expenses on your behalf - wouldn't they be entitled to some compensation as well? Also you are 15 and as such you cannot legally enter into a contact with ANYONE.

It's wonderful that you are industrious, energetic and enthusiastic, but here's some advise from an older/wiser person - MYOB - mind your own business. You should not be concerned about someone elses horse being sold - that is their problem - Don't make it yours.. you have plenty of time to get involved in this business. You do not need to get involved in any business goings on that does not involve you personally or financially. If they sell it fine, if they don't that's their problem. You could conceivably spend hundreds on showing this horse and it still won't get sold.. and you will be out the $$.

We just got a horse on trial at our farm. Horse has been for sale for 1.5 years original price $20,000, then 10,000 now about 7500...

Do yourself a favor and don't get involved. In the long run it will not be worth it to you - not at this point in your life.

spmoonie
Aug. 10, 2009, 10:00 PM
And you know it will be successful on the A circuit because???? You like it? Or have extensive A show experience giving you the ability to evaluate it.



Just because I am 15 does not mean I can't evaluate a horse. I know it could be successful on the A circuit because it is a 8 mover, 10 jumper, super fancy, smart, and easy to ride. Not trying to sound snarky or rude at all, but this is exactly the problem I keep running into. "Shes only 15, what could she know??" :rolleyes:

gottagrey: Yes, I am employed at the barn where said pony is located. I work feeding, cleaning stalls, and riding the horses every day. I pay all my own expenses for my own pony.

Thanks again everyone for your help and consideration!! :D

Gry2Yng
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:45 AM
right.... full loss coverage on a cheapie QH hunter the OP thinks will sell if she's allowed to haul it to C rated shows ???

everyone always wants to tell us what and how to run this farm...it normally starts with.....

"if you would just <insert something that involves loss of our investment> you could <inset something about making money maybe> and then I could help you out with that "

translated loosely "you take all the risk, trusting me with your money and we BOTH win" but in the end, there is only one loser if things go wrong and that is me/us/ the farm.....

what would the OP be out if things go wrong...some show fees maybe...

and the owner of the horse?

the loss of the use of the horse,maybe the horse itself,maybe the OP does such a sucky job on this majikal C circuit that no one wants to look at the horse afterward, maybe she ruins the horse...

she's 15...she goes on about her life out only some show fees...10 years from now no one knows or cares that something went wrong...except the horse and the horses owner...

it's not a risk I would assume as an owner nor could I remain silent for the sake of being PC and "encouragement"

regards

Replying with the utmost respect for your position and opinion. I wasn't saying the owner should do it, or that I imagined the horse was covered. But the fact is, you send your horse to be shown and unless there is negligence involved you are pretty much SOL if an accident happens. Do you have uninsured horses that you expect the trainer or catch rider to reimburse you for if they do a suspensory while in the show ring or while schooling at home? As you have stated, the loss of use is of concern for the owner if she sends the horse with the OP, but I don't think the OP is liable (except in her own conscience) if the horse has a soft tissue injury, by way of example, while she is showing it.

Trixie
Aug. 11, 2009, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by findeight
And you know it will be successful on the A circuit because???? You like it? Or have extensive A show experience giving you the ability to evaluate it.



Just because I am 15 does not mean I can't evaluate a horse. I know it could be successful on the A circuit because it is a 8 mover, 10 jumper, super fancy, smart, and easy to ride. Not trying to sound snarky or rude at all, but this is exactly the problem I keep running into. "Shes only 15, what could she know??"

Hon, no one said that "just because you're 15" you don't know how to evaluate a horse.

They asked HOW you know it will be successful on the "A" circuit.

Do you have extensive "A" circuit experience?

findeight
Aug. 11, 2009, 12:41 PM
Hon, no one said that "just because you're 15" you don't know how to evaluate a horse.

They asked HOW you know it will be successful on the "A" circuit.

Do you have extensive "A" circuit experience?

Yep, thanks trixie.

I know a 12 year old I would let pick an A circuit horse out for me. Also know some 40 year olds I would not.

Not a thing to do with age. To do with experience at A shows at A level competition against A level horses. Knowledge of sales prices/pricing and good contacts with other agents are also vital. Word of mouth is the way most are sold, not just showing up with one and saying come buy it.

I make the same remarks to alot of these posts from anybody at any age...if you have little or no A experience and don't know anybody who would buy an A show horse at an A show price? Probably not going to sell it there.

And, you know, it has to do well in those classes against the A horses and riders or you got no shot at all.