Trimmers: What Would Make You Start Shoing?

[Coppers mom]

After a long, expensive, and thoroughly irritating saga regarding farriers, I'm just about fed up. In the last two years, we've used so many different farriers that I need more than one hand to count them. They've ranged from disagreeing with what the radiographs said, filing the back feet into points (literally), leaving nails out, the shoes being loose immediately after they're finished, putting the nails in so low that the shoes only last 3 weeks, letting the hoof get super long/making them lame because they're so short, and more.

Luckily, we have a barefoot trimmer that is amazing. She's gotten the horses moving better, there's less tripping, and the feet just look good. The horses are all healthy, comfy, and happy. But, she won't put on shoes.

In a last ditch effort to get our shod horses looking good (they need studs, or have old injuries), we've decided to get someone very experienced in corrective work to come down. It'll be expensive, but hopefully, it'll work. It's frustrating, because none of the horses need corrective work or special shoing, just someone who isn't going to do a complete hack job.

What would make you, as a barefoot trimmer, start putting shoes on horses? Is there anything that could convince you?

[Androcles]

I don't understand the question. I would think a horse with old injuries would be better off barefoot than with shoes. As far as studs, I'm not convinced horses 'need' them, at least not without trying them BF.

[deltawave]

Gosh, I'd really hope the answer would be "if the horse needs them". :)

Whoever wrote on another thread that it is puzzling that the emphasis is on "barefoot people" rather than "barefoot horses" is right on. It seems to become more of a philosophy or a belief system, when really it ought to be a management strategy, one among several.

[ThirdCharm]

Hmm, _if_ I was a barefoot trimmer I suppose I would be willing to put shoes on if someone would buy me a forge, anvil, several hundred dollars worth of tools, a truck or trailer to cart them around in since the family car would no longer suffice, and pay me $120/hour PLUS materials instead of $80/hour MINUS materials.... Disregarding the needs of the individual horse, 'trimming only' is a much more attractive proposition!!!

Sorry you are having such a bad experience, though! Where in NC are you? Maybe we know a competent farrier who can trim AND shoe up your way!

Jennifer

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I don't understand this "one way only" kind of logic. As in barefoot and nothing else. Don't get me wrong some may think shoes or nothing else so I am not knocking one side of the road here.

I just go for what works for the horse. Mine is bare right now and doing great. If I were riding him more and wear were to exceed growth for example I would put shoes on him since it would make sense and be what's best for him. Granted there are boots out there too that could be used for protection but each has it's place (boots, shoes and bare). It's great to have different options so you can apply them to different horses. Just one style is not going to suit every horse.

[Bluey]

The problem seems to be that the farriers were bad farriers and now OP has a good barefoot trimmer, but that trimmer doesn't know how to shoe.

The OP is lucky to at least have someone she thinks is trimming better than previously.
Now she wants someone that also can shoe, as she thinks her horses need shoes.

That is if I got it all right.:o

[LMH]

dw-actually what I think it should boil down to (though seeing some trims I don't know what others think) is healthy hoof forum and function.

Those that adhere to barefoot is best have an understanding of hoof form that can be best maintained without shoes. Or at least they SHOULD-if not they are doing horses and owners a HUGE injustice. This is what I see happening with so many "Read and Raspers."

There are some horses (though not nearly as many as seem to have shoes) may have pathologies so severe that they need protection for comfort. I don't have any to list off the top of my head. But the shoe would be for comfort not to all the horse to perform with those pathologies.

I am not a believer in shoeing an unhealthy hoof so the horse can perform. That just seems odd to *me*-BUT I don't view my horses as ATVs but living animals. I believe the emphasis should be on restoring healthy hooves. Restoring structure and function.

I view deformed, distorted or incorrect hoof form no different than anything else that is 'broken' on a horse-be it a tendon, joint, muscle or whatever. So my goal is to create an environment that best promotes rehabilitation and restortation of a healthy functioning hoof.

So if there is a way to shoe a horse so the hoof can maintain structure and still have those structures perform as they should, then I would not be opposed to shoeing. I guess I just don't see that happening very often. Heck I no longer see as many healthy bare hooves either.

Yes I am sure there are farriers that can achieve healthy hooves with shoes-but more often what I see is a very poor hoof that is simply 'protected' by a shoe. The hoof us still unhealthy. In my opinion an unhealthy hoof can not properly take impact and disperse energy-this is true with or without a shoe.

So the same goes for all these bares hooves smacking around on the trail-poor hoof form is not good in either case.

Just because a horse is 'sound' today (bare or shod) does not mean the 'environment' of the hoof is such that it will not predispose the hoof (or body) to future unsoundness. In this case, it is unfair and unhealthy to ask the horse to 'work' on those unhealhty hooves.

This whole 'oh WOW he walked up lame, I shod him and he was sound' is a little beyond my understanding. If the hoof is deformed and unhealthy, it is deformed and unhealthy. The focus should be on reversing that, not some miracle 1 hour 'cure' that lets the horse walk off 'sound.'

Heck you can achieve that with enough drugs for most things!

I apply the same thinking to my own body. I take great care to maintain healthy form and function-I do not 'bute' myself or wrap my arms or legs so I can perform. I create a rehab program to strengthen what is weak so function can be restored.

It is not so much shoes are bad or bare is good but the quality of the work (on either end) just is not always up to snuff, if you will.

So my beef is quality of work-no matter which side of the fence you are on.

[deltawave]

Well, I guess I see it a little differently. If I never galloped my horse, never jumped her, never hacked out on the roads, my guess is she'd be just fine barefoot. She is, in fact, barefoot for about half the year, and she generally holds up great. She has good feet for being barefoot. BUT, during the months she's bare, she's generally working ONLY on soft, ideal footing. When summer comes, the mileage goes up, the ground gets harder and the speed gets increased, the shoes go on because if they didn't I'd have either a horse too sore to do her job, or a horse whose job description had to be adjusted to suit her bare feet. Maybe the latter philosophy suits some people, but it doesn't suit me and my ambitions with my horses. And yes, since I own them, feed them, care for them, I do require them to do the job I ask them to do. I won't ask my stocky half-TB to race, I won't ask my elderly retired mare to jump any more, and I won't ask my Shetland to carry my weight around, but I don't think it's too much to ask for a trained athlete to do what she's around for. And since that job requires her to wear shoes for her own comfort, on they go. The 22 year old one, managed with the same philosophy since I've owned her (and she was kept shod year-round before I owned her) has terrific feet for an old horse that doesn't do much.

The job the horse does ought to dictate how the feet are managed, not the other way around. :)

[Ajierene]

I don't understand the question. I would think a horse with old injuries would be better off barefoot than with shoes. As far as studs, I'm not convinced horses 'need' them, at least not without trying them BF.

While traction on snow and walking in the mud or on asphalt is better with a bare hoof, galloping along muddy terrain and especially negotiating jumps and combinations, especially in less than ideal conditions are accomplished better with studs. Studs, similar to soccer shoes or golf shoes, sink into the ground in specific spot (where the stud is) and help traction by not sliding across the ground.

Some horses require shoes to help support their legs when they are not perfectly conformed or have old injuries. Two examples are my mare and my first horse. My mare has flat feet and especially in August where the ground here is hard and dry, shoes elevate her feet above the ground enough that her soles (frogs and bottom of feet) are not getting bruised by every pebble on the ground or even just the concussion of the hard ground. My first horse had pasterns that were at a bit to much of an angle and slight arthritis in the hocks. Eggbar shoes helped the angle of the pasterns and relieved some of the pressure on the hocks. When I stopped riding him (he was about 26) and retired him to field boss, the shoes did come off. They made him more comfortable and willing to work while he was in work.

Anyone who insists on barefoot or insists on shoes is closing their mind to other options. Some people may just trim, for various reasons, but because 'shoeing is evil' should not be one of them.

[LMH]

dw you missed my point completely.

The job should be dictated by the health of the feet. Asking a horse to perform beyond the current health of the foot (shod or bare) is just...well...wrong to me.

If the hooves are otherwise healthy (and again, do many people truly know what how a healthy functioning hoof looks), then go ahead and protect the hoof if it needs it.

However if the protection is just covering up an otherwise unhealthy hoof, well...I don't get it.

But I treat all areas of horsemanship that way-I won't ride a horse in an 'ok' fitting saddle-or a bit that is not correct for his mouth. I ride my horses (as best as I can) in a way to develop the correct muscles. I don't just plop on like a sack of potatoes and go.

I consider riding horses a privilege-not a right. So to do it fairly, I make sure my horse is healthy in all areas.

This does not mean they don't work-mine work and sweat. That is part of the physical development. I just make sure they are not pushed to the point that the work predisposes them to future injury.

Working horses on healthy hooves (shod or bare) is in my opinion being good steward for the horse.

[LMH]

Maybe this will make my point more clear.

Have you ever worked out or lifted weights? Did you every have an injury? Stress fractrue? Tendonitis?

Did you trainer make you perform with the damage? I would hope not-I would hope the trainer would develop a program to restore health. Not just ace bandage you and go.

But like I said, I have great interest in developing myself athletically so I am aware of the damage that can be done asking an unhealthy body to perform.

The problem is most owners don't identify skinny frogs as unhealthy. Or underrun heals, or long toes-they may get SO bad they get noticed but if the horse is 'sound' no worries.

Meanwhile those unhealthy structures are not able to correctly perform the function and things breakdown...what is even worse is most times i don't think the first damage is even noticed in the hoof (well except he is tender without shoes)-so the horse is shod and 'sound'-then suddenly he needs his hocks done, or a tendon gives or his back needs constant chiro care.

That foot was not made healthy with a shoe-same unhealthy hoof now being asked to perform.

[Hampton Bay]

I trim my own horses and my one boarder, but I certainly don't do it professionally. Nor do I intend to. So from that standpoint...

I would shoe mine if they needed it. I was considering shoeing my 2nd level dressage mare, but considering that she has had 2 months off from her injury and then mine, just getting her strength back up is more important now. She doesn't need shoes yet because we are no longer trying to progress thru second to get to third. If that changes, then I would probably shoe her for the sake of giving her a bit more confidence in her step in footing that I cannot control.

But she is not there now, and my other two are young horses who have no need of shoes. So they will stay bare for the moment.

If I were to do this professionally (which I cannot for personal reasons), I would probably consider shoeing if I thought it made sense financially. But for just a couple horses... I doubt the time and finances put into learning to shoe would really be worth it.

[matryoshka]

Nothing could induce me to start shoeing. I can't stand to drive nails into the white line. I nailed on one or two shoes when I took a basice farrier class. After that I stuck to trimming, with the instructor's permission.

I attended the Wellshodhorses clinic last year (sponsored by Brian Purrington) to learn about gluing on shoes. I decided that if I wanted to glue on shoes, I'd have to study a lot more about what shoes do to and for hooves. There is a lot more to learn, and I've already got a full book of clients. So the incentive isn't there for me. I decided after that clinic that if I want to apply a shoe, I'd better have a firm idea of what I wanted to accomplish for the horse and how to go about it.

So I'm not even gluing on shoes. Call me a whimp.

I have a few clients with young horses who are entering sports where shoes would be an advantage. I keep the feet balanced as well as I can, talk to the owner about how the horse is moving, keep on the lookout for any signs of soreness, and make sure the horse stands well so that a future farrier can do a good job shoeing him. When the client is ready to have shoes put on, I suggest they offer the entire account to the prospective farrier. Sometimes the farrier wants the whole barn, and sometimes he's content to just do the shoes while I trim the other horses there.

I stay on good terms with the local farriers. They've been very helpful whenever I've asked. Also, if a client tries shoes and then wants to go back to bare, I take them back. No problem. And when other people ask me to pull shoes from their horse to "try bare" I suggest they have their farrier do it. If they like his work, they should stick with him. Same goes for bigger barns where they want me to pull shoes on some horses and have a farrier only do the shoeing. I tell them that if they like the way the farrier shoes, they should give him the opportunity to do the trims as well. If he doesn't want the trims, then I'll take them. Otherwise, stick with the farrier.

[Daydream Believer]

I'm kind of like Matyroska...I am a trimmer but I am not anti shoe...however I do very much understand what LMH is saying also. I really wish more people would explore bringing a hoof back into good form/health as a cure rather than shoeing over top of unhealthy feet...but truly...sometimes the shoe is the right answer and the lesser of two evils. Shoeing over a bad trim will catch up with you eventually and I do see a frightening amount of that going on. Shoes are a great help in some sports and events and I'd support any client of mine who wanted to use them and help them find a good farrier to work with.

What would it take for me to shoe? Not much really. I have a farrier friend who's offered to teach me to shoe. She says I have the hard part...the trim...down and the shoeing itself is not difficult. I do have several farrier friends who will help if I have a client horse that needs shoes....so it's not really all that necessary. Most of my clients want to use boots and I can cast those who need it. Interestingly I'm one of the only hoof care providers in my area casting. I have found it very useful for many applications.

The funny thing is that the farriers I know do not resent me and that I only trim at all...but then I don't run around badmouthing shoes or them either....so respect goes both ways. They are delighted that I pick up the "trims" as most prefer to do the shoeing packages. When I was hurt recently and could not work, several local farriers helped out my clients and helped me...and I really really appreciated that. I was told that we all know it could be our self that is hurt next time, and I appreciated being included as one of them.

Do I want to learn to shoe though? I dunno...I'm pushing my late 40s and my back is not so good as it is. I'm trimming about 100 horses now and as it is, I'm struggling a bit with back/hip pain. I love hoof care...best job I've ever had...I wish I'd found this job when I was younger. Part of me really would like to know how to shoe though and I may try the Epona course soon. I'm the sort of person who has to be really good at something to make it worth doing...so it's not something I will take lightly.

I also had an interesting conversation on this topic with one of our areas most respected and most traditional vets. I told him about being offered by a farrier to show me how to shoe...and he said that his advice to me was not to do it. He said that our area has needed a good therapeutic trimmer for a long time and that I fit that niche very well and do a good job. He said if I learned to shoe, I'd end up doing more and more shoeing and less trimming. I was quite stunned that he said that as he could not be more traditional...so thinking is changing slowly. It really made me feel good to hear him say that.

[Brian Purrington]

Nothing could induce me to start shoeing. I can't stand to drive nails into the white line. I nailed on one or two shoes when I took a basice farrier class. After that I stuck to trimming, with the instructor's permission.

I attended the WellShod clinic last year (sponsored by Brian Purrington) to learn about gluing on shoes. I decided that if I wanted to glue on shoes, I'd have to study a lot more about what shoes do to and for hooves. There is a lot more to learn, and I've already got a full book of clients. So the incentive isn't there for me. I decided after that clinic that if I want to apply a shoe, I'd better have a firm idea of what I wanted to accomplish for the horse and how to go about it.......



Hi Pam,

I am glad to see/hear your reasoning and willingness to say you have more to learn. We all have a need for more learning.

I hope you are planning to come to this years Wellshodhorses Practical Farriery Workshop. It will be a great opprtunity to build on those principles that are needed for correct application of shoes.

Many miss the fact that good farriery is applied to manage the hoofcapsule in a way that compliments the horse by accomodating conformation and use. Contrary to some beliefs, a healthy foot CAN be managed and maintained on a shoe and in many cases it is the best thing overall for an equine athelete.

I would love to trim horses all day long, but the simple fact is that most horses have conformational faults. Horses that are in real work and are asked to do un-natural things need help in some area. The biggest Detriment to the equine hoof is GRF (Ground Reaction Force/s). By adding rider and tack we increase those forces directly.

Horizontal, Vertical and Leverage forces can all be managed much more efficiently and effectively with a correct shoe/appliance. Proper management of GRF will benifit the horse, is hooves, joints, tendons, ligaments and limbs.

Those of you that are skeptical, please dont lump all farriers into the same group. There are plenty of good ones out there.

Regards,

PS Just wanted to note the difference in WellShod and Wellshodhorses.
They are not related entities and are not intended to seem connected.

My website is down right now but if anyone wants info about this year's W.P.F.W. feel free to email or call me.

[matryoshka]

I plan to go to this year's clinic as well. I learned more last time than just what was presented.

[EqTrainer]

It's an interesting question. My answer is pretty close to DDB's and Matry's. I have been lucky enough to have a few truly excellent farriers and I have a healthy respect for what it takes to shoe in such a way that you are doing the horse good. It's hard and I also think there is a certain amount of natural talent necessary.. the art of projection becomes so much more relevant once you put a shoe on the foot and it can no longer wear itself.

But I am continally encouraged to learn how by my vet and farrier. If I do, it will be Epona's and/or straight glue-ons, so that they can just refer that work to me.

[Daydream Believer]

Brian,

Your workshop sounds very interesting. Do you have a list of topics you will cover? I'm not that far from you and might be able to come up.

[matryoshka]

DDB, how far are you from the DC area? If you are close, I'd like to take you to see that foundered Rocky Mountain horse I mentioned. He's in Laurel, MD.

[Daydream Believer]

I'm about 4 hours from DC. I'd love to come up and visit and hang with you for a day! What fun!

[matryoshka]

Maybe if you come up for Brian's clinic we can take a trip over to see the horse. You can also see the filly with the 4 club feet. And the donkey. Oh, and we could probably swing by and see the Icie.

Ack, I don't even know when the clinic is. I hope I'm free that weekend!

[Brian Purrington]

Brian,

Your workshop sounds very interesting. Do you have a list of topics you will cover? I'm not that far from you and might be able to come up.

I am not really allowed to promote the workshop here, but if you go over to horseshoes.com look in upcoming clinics and workshops all the details are there.

For more specifics, just send an email or call.

Thanks for asking.

Regards,

[Brian Purrington]

Maybe if you come up for Brian's clinic we can take a trip over to see the horse. You can also see the filly with the 4 club feet. And the donkey. Oh, and we could probably swing by and see the Icie.

Ack, I don't even know when the clinic is. I hope I'm free that weekend!

October 10 and 11.

[rainechyldes]

To the OP

I understand the question, however I think perhaps you are looking at this incorrectly.
What a farrier or barefoot trimmer wants to do is/can be irrevelant- they are professionals, and they both follow certain principles/procedures that they've learned.

The question should be: As an owner, when you do decide that a horse needs to be shod or bare. As the owner, you are your horses best advocate, and thusly, you are the one who needs to make the decision about shod/barefoot and what works best for you and your horse.
No one can decide this for you, and no one should.

I have both barefoot and shod competition horses. I decide who is shod, and who is barefoot, through conversations with my vet and farrier, but the final decision is and should always be mine.

This requires a certain level of education on my part, I strive to learn more all the time, as well as having solid professionals who are willing to discuss the pros/cons and what is working, what is obviously not working on each particular animal.

[matryoshka]

October 10 and 11.Rats! I'll be in Florida. Won't even think of horses while I'm there.

[ThirdCharm]

I think the OP has ALREADY decided that a couple of her horses are better off shod, and is just wondering how she can get her trimmer (who is better at getting a balanced foot than her previous farriers have been) to put shoes on, too.

Unfortunately if the trimmer has plenty of business there isn't a lot of incentive to do so, certainly not financially speaking, and she might even be too busy to find the time to learn to shoe! I know that if I hadn't happened to be married to a farrier, so I could learn 'hands on' and inherit all the tools secondhand, and if I didn't own horses who NEED shoes, I would not have bothered to learn how..... I make a LOT more money on trims and they make up 90% of my business.....

Jennifer

[rainechyldes]

I think the OP has ALREADY decided that a couple of her horses are better off shod, and is just wondering how she can get her trimmer (who is better at getting a balanced foot than her previous farriers have been) to put shoes on, too.


Jennifer

ah gotya, well you can't make a trimmer learn to be a farrier...I guess if you were really dedicated, you could have the trimmer trim and find a farrier to shoe, but I'd expect any farrier would probably trim again before he put on a shoe out of habit and wanting the hoof to look like he's trained to have it before shoeing. (would be my guess anyhow)

[matryoshka]

ah gotya, well you can't make a trimmer learn to be a farrier...I guess if you were really dedicated, you could have the trimmer trim and find a farrier to shoe, but I'd expect any farrier would probably trim again before he put on a shoe out of habit and wanting the hoof to look like he's trained to have it before shoeing. (would be my guess anyhow)I don't like to trim a horse that I know will be going into shoes within 2 weeks. I put a roll on the hoof, and I don't want to do anything that will make the farrier's job harder. I did learn to prepare a hoof for a shoe, but that was over 5 years ago. I know enough to leave it to the farrier.

I share several accounts with farriers. I don't know why they don't want to do the trims, but it works fine and the owners don't mind making two appointments. If possible, I try to be there when the farrier is there to watch him/her work, especially if it is a horse I used to trim.

[Daydream Believer]

I share several accounts with farriers. I don't know why they don't want to do the trims, but it works fine and the owners don't mind making two appointments.

I do the same. One Arab barn has me do the trims and a farrier do the shoes. The farrier is happy with that arrangement as am I. The clients tell me that I am less expensive than he is for trims and they like my trims better. :cool: They have a whole mess of horses there too so no farrier could do them all in one trip anyway. I could certainly see in a smaller barn where that could be an inconvenience having two separate hoof visits.

[Patty Stiller]

. They've ranged from disagreeing with what the radiographs said, Well have occasionally disagreed with some vets opinions of radiographs, and when the second vet opinion was obtained, I was right. Some vets (and some trimmers and some farriers) just do not fully understand the equine foot, unfortunately. filing the back feet into points (literally),well agree making pointy feet deliberately is not a good practice leaving nails out, The farrier should use as FEW Nails as is necessary to hold the shoe on . I sometimes shoe with only two nails on each side of the foot. Just because there is a hole for a nail does not mean it should be filled with a nail. Filling all the nail holes with nails just because they are there is bad practice. the shoes being loose immediately after they're finished,that's bad shoeing putting the nails in so low that the shoes only last 3 weeks, low nails is not good shoeing either letting the hoof get super longThat's YOUR fault. if they grow too long they need shoeing more often. making them lame because they're so short, because they trimmed them short or because the foot was worn short and there was no foot to work with? There's a difference. Either way though, there are ways to avoid making a short foot sore when shoeing it . and more.Sounds like a combination of you being in an area with a dearth of skilled farriers and also you not fully undertstanding enough about the intracacies of shoeing. (like the number of nails needed, and keeping the horses on a shorter schedule) No wonder you gave up on all of them. Luckily, we have a barefoot trimmer that is amazing. She's gotten the horses moving better, there's less tripping, and the feet just look good. The horses are all healthy, comfy, and happy. But, she won't put on shoes.Well of course not, she is not a farrier.;)
In a last ditch effort to get our shod horses looking good (they need studs, or have old injuries), we've decided to get someone very experienced in corrective work to come down. It'll be expensive, but hopefully, it'll work. It's frustrating, because none of the horses need corrective work or special shoing, just someone who isn't going to do a complete hack job.I wouldnt call that a last di8tch effort I'll call it hiring someone competent and paying what he isworth. You usually get what you pay for .And where on earth are you that you have had so much trouble finding someone competent? Out in the middle of nowhere ?
What would make you, as a barefoot trimmer, start putting shoes on horses? Is there anything that could convince you?Well I'm both a barefoot trimmer and a farrier so that question is moot for me. I shoe them when they need shoeing and barefoot them when they can be barefoot.

[Patty Stiller]

share several accounts with farriers. I don't know why they don't want to do the trims, but it works fine and the owners don't mind making two appointments.From my own perspective I don't mind sharing accounts with a good trimmer, because after 27 years at this, my old back can't physically stand doing too many trims in a row. With shoeing, I get to stand up more, (at the anvil) so I am not bent over quite as much in the same number of hours as if i was just trimming and I make the same money in the end. ,If possible, I try to be there when the farrier is there to watch him/her work, especially if it is a horse I used to trim.That's cool. And hopefully the farrier will be willing to explain to you anything particular he,she is doing to a foot, since you are sort of on the same hoof care "team" for that horse.

[Coppers mom]

. Well have occasionally disagreed with some vets opinions of radiographs, and when the second vet opinion was obtained, I was right. Some vets (and some trimmers and some farriers) just do not fully understand the equine foot, unfortunately.

I'm not talking about just varying opinions. I'm talking about a farrier looking at a severely rotated coffin bone and saying "Nah, it's not rotated. It's fine".

The farrier should use as FEW Nails as is necessary to hold the shoe on . I sometimes shoe with only two nails on each side of the foot. Just because there is a hole for a nail does not mean it should be filled with a nail. Filling all the nail holes with nails just because they are there is bad practice.

Thanks for assuming I'm a complete idiot. I'm not talking about as few nails as possible, I'm talking about not nailing on a whole side of the shoe. As in only putting nails on the outside of the shoe, but leaving the inside completely bare.

That's YOUR fault. if they grow too long they need shoeing more often.

Right, because looking like they're desperate to be shod again after four weeks, when a previous six week schedule was fine is totally my fault for not getting them shod more often. Ridiculous.

because they trimmed them short or because the foot was worn short and there was no foot to work with?

Because they were trimmed too short, that's why I said it. Seriously, if the horse was sound prior to the farrier coming out, and they are clearly gimpy and the hoof looks much shorter, I think it's pretty clear they were trimmed too short.

Sounds like a combination of you being in an area with a dearth of skilled farriers and also you not fully undertstanding enough about the intracacies of shoeing. (like the number of nails needed, and keeping the horses on a shorter schedule) No wonder you gave up on all of them.

Seriously? No offense, but why do farriers have this kind of attitude so often? Like owners are complete morons? This is the same kind of attitude I get from so many farriers when I fire them. "Oh, you just have no idea what you're talking about". I'm no farrier, but I know when it's a hack job, the shoe's loose, the foot's too long for this point in the shoing cycle, etc. And when I don't, I ask the vet, who sorry, trumps most farriers, no matter how much experience they claim to have (i.e., the clearly rotated coffin bone).

I wouldnt call that a last di8tch effort I'll call it hiring someone competent and paying what he isworth. You usually get what you pay for .

Again, seriously? I think for $135 for a freaking reset I should be getting a decent job. Don't you?

And where on earth are you that you have had so much trouble finding someone competent? Out in the middle of nowhere ?

Surprisingly, I'm next to a huge horsey area. Unfortunately, most don't know what they're talking about and recommend people who don't do a good job, the farriers won't travel out to where we are (we only have 3 with shoes), or they start out ok, but don't keep up the work. There was one who started out fantastic, everyone (including the vet) raved about him. Then all of a sudden in 2 trim cycles the horses were falling all over themselves after 4 weeks, going lame, throwing shoes, the works. We let him go when he came stinking of alcohol and only did 3 feet before proclaiming he was finished with one of the horses.


Third Charm: thank you for being one of the few that could stay on topic. We're near Southern Pines, if you know anyone.

As to the person who said my previously injured horse would probably be better barefoot, no, he wouldn't. He's in full work with a previously fractured coffin bone, and every vet I've talked to has agreed that it's better that he be in egg bar shoes.

Seriously guys, I'm not an idiot slapping shoes on so that I can ride a lame horse. I'd appreciate if this thread gave advice on how to get my wonderful trimmer to do shoing as well. All assumptions about my poor lame beasts having shoes slapped on because they're cripples and I'm a heartless wench who only cares about riding really aren't necessary.

[LMH]

I thought I WAS answering your obviously poorly worded question.

I was not accusing you of anything but attempted to give a thoughtful answer from my perspective on the question I thought you were answering.

Best of luck in getting your trimmer to shoe or resolving your issue.

[Auventera Two]

What would make you, as a barefoot trimmer, start putting shoes on horses? Is there anything that could convince you?

Some barefoot trimmers may have a strict no-shoe policy, but lots of us don't. I PREFER that my personal horses and the horses of others be shoeless, but that is not always possible, or a reasonable expectation.

I never "chose not to shoe" because I'm mentally incompetent (as some of the farriers would have you believe), or because I think shoes have no place on a horse. I chose not togo to a shoeing school because I was not comfortable with the curriculum offered. On all of the courses I checked, the time actually learning horse handling, anatomy, diet, health, environment, disection, soft tissue rehabilitation, etc. was very very minimal. The meat of the program was centered around the shoes themselves, shaping them, building them, nailing. I didn't want to spend 12 weeks learning how to shape shoes and work with metal. I wanted to learn about the HOOF.

So - I did a trimmer certification course, completed it in 10 months, then felt like I had a good understanding of the hoof, the issues that affect it, anatomy, conformation, and trimming. Then that is a springboard for other skills that a person wants to pursue. Continuing education is crucial. I attended an Epona shoeing course out East this spring, and certainly that will not be the only shoeing course I attend. I'm signed up for a clinic this October that is presented by a vet and a farrier.

My opinion of shoes is that they can be valuable tools for treating specific pathologies, or to provide extra traction during competition or pleasure riding. I do not like it that shoes are often used in lieu of proper rehabilitation of unhealthy hoof structure. There is a HUGE difference in horses who are lame without shoes, and horses who need shoes for added benefit during work.

Obviously if the lameness without shoes is caused by a broken bone, an injury, deformity, etc. then obviously the shoe is serving a vital purpose. But when the lameness is due to poor hoof structure, I'm not convinced its a good idea to put on a set of shoes and keep riding the horse.

If you talk to 10 different trimmers, you'll get 11 different opinions regarding shoes and shoeing.

[Auventera Two]

But the shoe would be for comfort not to all the horse to perform with those pathologies.

I am not a believer in shoeing an unhealthy hoof so the horse can perform. That just seems odd to *me*-BUT I don't view my horses as ATVs but living animals. I believe the emphasis should be on restoring healthy hooves. Restoring structure and function.

I view deformed, distorted or incorrect hoof form no different than anything else that is 'broken' on a horse-be it a tendon, joint, muscle or whatever. So my goal is to create an environment that best promotes rehabilitation and restortation of a healthy functioning hoof.

You got it! :cool:

Someone put a question out on the endurance board saying she has a saddle that rubs her horse, and she's wondering if she can buy sheets of moleskin to put under the saddle to protect the spot while she rides. She got flogged by multiple people saying to give the horse time off to heal. Get a different saddle. Don't cover it up with moleskin.

Hmmmm. But then I go out on the endurance trail and see some horses feet who are atrocious. A breakdown just waiting for a place to happen. For the most part, endurance people have good footed horses, due to the nature of the job. But there are some out there competing whose feet are a real fright. So they won't patch up a saddle sore and keep on riding, but they'll keep on riding the horse who has long toes and crushed underrun heels.

The problem is, people just don't view hoof problems as being a medical issue that needs to be rehabilitated and healed. Just patch em, lace em, glue em, nail em, wedge em, pack em, and get out there and RIDE! :D Big Brown, anyone? :sigh:

If its bleeding, infected, oozing, or swollen, we'll get the vet and rehab that horse for MONTHS or even years. But when its a hoof and the horse goes head bobbing lame, just put on a bar shoe and some equipak and keep truckin!

Sorry but I just don't understand that philosophy. That's why I view shoeing a bit differently than some I guess.

[LMH]

A2 evidently we (as well as a couple of others) misunderstood the question.

Our answers are considered OT to the OP and seem to be offensive.

Just a little warning.

[Auventera Two]

That's YOUR fault. if they grow too long they need shoeing more often.

I just pulled shoes off a horse for a lady the other day that looked like they'd been on at LEAST 12 weeks, or more. They were on for 3 weeks.

When she walked the horse up the aisle (new client, never did her horses before), I thought oh boy, she's one of "those." I politely asked how long the horse had been wearing these shoes, and she said "THREE WEEKS!!!" She was really upset. She had just paid $150 for that mess to be done, now 3 weeks later she was paying me to trim the horse.

[Bluey]

I just pulled shoes off a horse for a lady the other day that looked like they'd been on at LEAST 12 weeks, or more. They were on for 3 weeks.

When she walked the horse up the aisle (new client, never did her horses before), I thought oh boy, she's one of "those." I politely asked how long the horse had been wearing these shoes, and she said "THREE WEEKS!!!" She was really upset. She had just paid $150 for that mess to be done, now 3 weeks later she was paying me to trim the horse.

Well, at least you had enough hoof to work with there, right?;)

[Tom Bloomer]

"Again, seriously? I think for $135 for a freaking reset I should be getting a decent job. Don't you?"

No. It costs me $65 per horse for a reset, (fixed costs) not including overhead.

Add in the travel time and scheduling overhead (time spent managing the schedule and finances for an individual horse + drive time going to and from the individual horse) I allow an hour of "overhead" time per shoeing.

Now throw in the time spent evaluating the horse before and after each shoeing, gathering performance information from the rider, observing shoe wear, considering changes in husbandry and environment - at EVERY appointment on EVERY horse.

At $135, you aren't getting most of that because at that rate a farrier can't afford to give it to you.

[Coppers mom]

"Again, seriously? I think for $135 for a freaking reset I should be getting a decent job. Don't you?"

No. It costs me $65 per horse for a reset, (fixed costs) not including overhead.

Add in the travel time and scheduling overhead (time spent managing the schedule and finances for an individual horse + drive time going to and from the individual horse) I allow an hour of "overhead" time per shoeing.

Now throw in the time spent evaluating the horse before and after each shoeing, gathering performance information from the rider, observing shoe wear, considering changes in husbandry and environment - at EVERY appointment on EVERY horse.

At $135, you aren't getting most of that because at that rate a farrier can't afford to give it to you.

That's just ridiculous. Are you telling me that it costs you $70 to drive out and reset a shoe?

[Patty Stiller]

Coppers Mom.....maybe if you had worded your original post a little better people would not have misundertstood you. I replied to exactly what you wrote, in the context it was written.
Had you incliuded the accurate details in the first place, I would have replied a little differently. :yes:

[Coppers mom]

I thought I WAS answering your obviously poorly worded question.

I was not accusing you of anything but attempted to give a thoughtful answer from my perspective on the question I thought you were answering.

Best of luck in getting your trimmer to shoe or resolving your issue.
How is talking about how a horse shouldn't be shod in order to simply cover up a problem anywhere near the topic, "Trimmers: What would make you start shoing?". I didn't say you accused me of anything, don't know where that came from :confused:

I'd also like to know how I could put the question any more plainly. If you can't comprehend "What would make you start shoing?", well then, I'm sorry.

[Coppers mom]

Coppers Mom.....maybe if you had worded your original post a little better people would not have misundertstood you. I replied to exactly what you wrote, in the context it was written.
Had you incliuded the accurate details in the first place, I would have replied a little differently. :yes:
Again, all one would have to do is look at the title of the post. It was not that confusing. I explained the problems I was having, and asked what would convince a barefoot trimmer to start shoing. There was no need for massive amounts of detail, and no reason for misunderstanding.

You didn't reply in context either, you simply went through and tried to point out how I, the owner, obvioulsy have no idea what I'm talking about and that's why I'm having trouble. There was nothing that had anything to do with the proposed question.

Sorry to sound frustrated, I'm just sick of the lack of reading that goes on on these boards. It's like everyone reads one thing out of a whole post, and goes off on their own little tangent about their pet project. Whether it be convincing everyone that even injured horses should be barefoot, all owners have no idea what they're talking about, or no horse should go without shoes. It's ridiculous.

[EqTrainer]

I understood your question perfectly... because I get asked all the time why I don't shoe, also!

[Androcles]

. I'd appreciate if this thread gave advice on how to get my wonderful trimmer to do shoing as well. All assumptions about my poor lame beasts having shoes slapped on because they're cripples and I'm a heartless wench who only cares about riding really aren't necessary.

This is the part of the question I don't understand. Why would you want to 'get' a trimmer to put shoes on your horse? It's not what they do. Are you trying to get all your professionals to do jobs for which they're not qualified, or maybe just not intrested in doing?

[Androcles]

When she walked the horse up the aisle (new client, never did her horses before), I thought oh boy, she's one of "those." I politely asked how long the horse had been wearing these shoes, and she said "THREE WEEKS!!!" She was really upset. She had just paid $150 for that mess to be done, now 3 weeks later she was paying me to trim the horse.

Yeah well, you probably forgot to apply 'owner math', wherein 1 week in reality equals about 3 weeks (when the horse is overdue because of them not calling their farrier on time).

[Coppers mom]

This is the part of the question I don't understand. Why would you want to 'get' a trimmer to put shoes on your horse? It's not what they do. Are you trying to get all your professionals to do jobs for which they're not qualified, or maybe just not intrested in doing?

You always manage to come up with the weirdest things. Trying to get all my professionals to do jobs in which they're not qualified? Please.

I'd like answers as to what would convince a barefoot trimmer put on shoes because, as stated in the first post, she's the only person I've found in 2 years who's done a decent job of taking care of the hoof. You can't have a good shoe job without a properly balanced and trimmed hoof, so she's half way there already. I'm not saying that anyone can slap a shoe on (trust me, figured that one out), or implying that there's nothing to it, but at least with the trimmer, I know she's capable of maintaining a hoof nicely.

[EqTrainer]

I'd like answers as to what would convince a barefoot trimmer put on shoes because, as stated in the first post, she's the only person I've found in 2 years who's done a decent job of taking care of the hoof. You can't have a good shoe job without a properly balanced and trimmed hoof, so she's half way there already. I'm not saying that anyone can slap a shoe on (trust me, figured that one out), or implying that there's nothing to it, but at least with the trimmer, I know she's capable of maintaining a hoof nicely.

what about asking her if there is a local farrier who would shoe behind her trims? Maybe someone young who doesn't think he knows it all yet?

[ThirdCharm]

Well, if it costs $65 to reset a horse all around (which I intend to sit down and figure out now), and the farrier is making $135, I would still hope to god that for $60/hour one could get a decent job. My husband and I charge $85 for four steel shoes (excessive drive time is extra, yes) and somehow for only $20 profit we manage to do a darn nice job and have happy clients and maintain a good standard of living (own a farm, have hobbies--well, hubby does, I made mine into a job and am way too busy for another--take vacations, have life/health/disability/retirement.....) I guess it is possible the trims are paying for all that, though, as I've pointed out they have a far superior profit margin!!

Still, for $20 for about an hour's work we, at least, can still afford to do a good job, even if the $100/hour for trims helps pay the bills far better (but is harder on the back as has been pointed out). Anyone who thinks that $20-60/hour isn't sufficient motivation to do a good job, needs to take a good hard look at the current economic situation in the USA and think about how that might have come about!!

Coppersmom, if you like PM me and let me know who you've tried, I know a few farriers out that way but I'll admit some who have fantastic reputations and who I know for a fact are VERY knowledgeable seem to have started "coasting on their reputations" judging by a couple of horses I've seen. And if you know who out there is into this "make the foot a box" trend (we've gotten several horses from SP at local barns with this phenom going on, and the buyers never know who the seller's farriers are!), let me know so I can make sure I never give their name to anyone, too! :-)

Jennifer

[Androcles]

You always manage to come up with the weirdest things. Trying to get all my professionals to do jobs in which they're not qualified? Please.

How is it any weirder than what you're suggesting? So it's weird to 'get' other professionals to do jobs they don't want to, but rational for you to expect this of your trimmer?

OK so you're only trying to 'get' your trimmer to do a job for which she is either not qualified, or not interested in? Why are you doing that to her and not other professionals you've hired? Why do you think that is appropriate? Using the analogy of getting other professionals to change what they're doing is intended to help you see the absurdity/irrationalitly/futility of what you're trying to do.

[matryoshka]

I've been asked quite a few times if I would start to shoe. I always say "No, can't stand to drive nails." So if she says no, then the answer is no, and I doubt you can persuade her. Perhaps she'd be interested in learning how to glue on shoes, such as Sigafoos. Those are expensive, but they might be something your trimmer would be willing to do. I'm going to list a few reasons here that you may or may not have thought of. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, rather to list additional reasons why I don't want to shoe. Her reasons may be similar:
Please remember that shoeing adds an extra level of personal hazard to an already hazardous job. Farriers are hammering very sharp nails in the direction of their own leg, and praying the horse does not yank the foot out before they have a chance to wring the nails off.
There's the expense of the extra tools involved. Even if the trimmer starts to cold shoe rather than invest in a forge and a rig to carry/power it, not to mention sanders and stuff the really good guys use, the overhead goes way up.
Then there is the added headache of going out to tack on thrown shoes.There are many more reasons for a successful trimmer to stick to trimming than to start shoeing. I admit it is frustrating not to be able to provide full care to a horse who needs shoes, because I grow fond of the horses I work on. It's tough to turn that horse over to a farrier. But in the best interest of the horse, I do so.

I've got a full book of clients just trimming, and I don't even advertise. It's all client referral, and I'm having to turn away inquiries. If I were to start to shoe, I'd be so busy that I'd never see my family. Also, I don't think I'd be up to the extra wear and tear on my tendons that shoeing would bring.

So unless your trimmer is already considering learning to shoe, then you are unlikely to be able to persuade her. Perhaps she can help you find a good farrier, though. I try to find out who the good ones are (by looking at the job they do), and keep their names to give out. The best ones are rarely taking new clients, but you could get lucky.

[LMH]

How is talking about how a horse shouldn't be shod in order to simply cover up a problem anywhere near the topic, "Trimmers: What would make you start shoing?".






If I can't comprehend? There are obviously TWO ways to interpret your question.

What would make me start shoeing? I thought you meant what would happen that would create an interest for you to use shoes on horses.

Things like-if my horse could needed traction. If my horse was unsound.

THAT is how I understood your question THAT is how I replied.

I didn't say you accused me of anything, don't know where that came from :confused:

you said:

Seriously guys, I'm not an idiot slapping shoes on so that I can ride a lame horse. I'd appreciate if this thread gave advice on how to get my wonderful trimmer to do shoing as well. All assumptions about my poor lame beasts having shoes slapped on because they're cripples and I'm a heartless wench who only cares about riding really aren't necessary.



I'd also like to know how I could put the question any more plainly. If you can't comprehend "What would make you start shoing?", well then, I'm sorry.

I am FULLY capable of comprehending a well written question-yours was written in a way to allow 2 possible understandings.

[Coppers mom]

If I can't comprehend? There are obviously TWO ways to interpret your question.

What would make me start shoeing? I thought you meant what would happen that would create an interest for you to use shoes on horses.

Things like-if my horse could needed traction. If my horse was unsound.

Exactly! But that isn't how you replied. You went on about how shoes shouldn't be used to cover up lameness or in place of proper care.

BTW, you only included one possible interpretation. What's the other one?

you said:

Seriously guys, I'm not an idiot slapping shoes on so that I can ride a lame horse. I'd appreciate if this thread gave advice on how to get my wonderful trimmer to do shoing as well. All assumptions about my poor lame beasts having shoes slapped on because they're cripples and I'm a heartless wench who only cares about riding really aren't necessary.


Yes, where did I say "LMH you are a big fat spoothead don't say such and such about me"? That had nothing at all to do with you, just with the general "Well, shoes shouldn't be used to cover up a lame horse" turn that the thread was taking.


I am FULLY capable of comprehending a well written question-yours was written in a way to allow 2 possible understandings.
Again, how many possible understandings can you get out of "What would make a trimmer interested in using shoes?".

[LMH]

1. What would make you, trimmer, personally decide to learn to apply shoes.

2. What would make you, a trimmer, allow shoes to be applied to a horse in your care.


Both are possible interpretations of what would make you start shoeing.

I answered #2

So did other posters.


If you want the answer to number 1, nothing would 'MAKE' me start shoeing.

Better?

For heaven's sake, I APOLOGIZE for putting a mean evil answer in your question.

I was answering the question *I THOUGHT* you were asking with a sincere answer.

Move on, ok?

[busterwells]

I guess this subject really intrigues me.

i have never run into this issue? I have had many horses with many hoof issues that have always been able to be worked out over time.

I can also tell when riding my horse over time if he or she is a candidate to need shoes. I have taken shoes off of horses when I bought them to see if they can manage to go without them, because I don't think they should be on if the horse doesn't need them. But if they are "ouchy" for an extended period of time, I will not torture them and make them go without.

I guess I have always been able to find a very capable farrrier with out any issues. (Maybe I had an incident on a horse that was always throwing a shoe) but nothing else.

I think maybe you need to investigate a new person to shoe your horse, because not all horses can go barefoot and there should be someone capable of doing that correctly.

[matryoshka]

...2. What would make you, a trimmer, allow shoes to be applied to a horse in your care...I may be mistaken, but I always thought this was something the owner gets to decide. Hopefully with my input, but even without it, the owner gets to decide.

Not be argumentative or anything, but we have to be sure our boundaries are clear. We can care about the horses we work on, and we can agree or refuse to do as an owner requests, but we cannot make decisions about what the owner gets to do for his or her horse.

[Androcles]

Again, how many possible understandings can you get out of "What would make a trimmer interested in using shoes?".

That's not what you originally said.


What would make you, as a barefoot trimmer, start putting shoes on horses? Is there anything that could convince you?

[LMH]

I may be mistaken, but I always thought this was something the owner gets to decide. Hopefully with my input, but even without it, the owner gets to decide.

Not be argumentative or anything, but we have to be sure we have clear boundaries. We can care about the horses we work on, and we can agree or refuse to do as an owner requests, but we cannot make decisions about what the owner gets to do for his or her horse.

Well of course-but the way I now understand the question-that is the wrong answer as well.

I now understand the question to be what would make you, a trimmer, to learn to and apply shoes.

I don't believe CM was looking for reasons people choose to use shoes or not.

No idea.

I just know all of my answers were wrong.

[matryoshka]

...I just know all of my answers were wrong.Some days are just like that, huh. Happened to me in a thread about the accident at the Tevis, and I just had to let it go.

What gets me is that once a person misunderstands what I intended and puts their interpretation on it, that seems to be what gets remembered rather than the clarification. It is up to the writer to clarify, but it is frustrating to be misunderstood.

[Coppers mom]

Well of course-but the way I now understand the question-that is the wrong answer as well.

I now understand the question to be what would make you, a trimmer, to learn to and apply shoes.

I don't believe CM was looking for reasons people choose to use shoes or not.

No idea.

I just know all of my answers were wrong.
Not trying to be argumentative, but I never said your answers were wrong, they just didn't have anything to do with the question I asked. I appreciate the input once the question was cleared up, but there's no need for the continued whining about your answers being 'wrong'.

As an aside, my trimmer isn't completely against shoes. She encourages us to use different things, and to seek out a farrier if she can't fix something with a rasp, nippers, and hoof knife.

[LMH]

First I am reprimanded for giving wrong answers?

Now I am told I can't whine?

Who's in charge here anyway?
:lol:

[Tom Bloomer]

That's just ridiculous. Are you telling me that it costs you $70 to drive out and reset a shoe?Yes that is exactly what I am telling you.

It costs about $30,000 every 5 years to replace a truck and all the equipment that wears out. That cost is spread out over every shoeing. If I didn't do shoeing, I would only need a very small, economical vehicle to haul around what I need for trimming.

Trucks wear out - especially when they are used every day to haul at their maximum weight capacity. Anvils, forges, power tools, welding equipment, all of it wears out and needs to be replaced. Based on standard IRS equipment depreciation, 5 years is my recovery basis.

Add to the vehicle/equipment recovery/replacement cost, maintenance, tires, insurance. Tires last about 2 years and cost about $600 to replace. Brakes need replacing (including calipers and rotors) about every 3 years @ $900. Insurance about $1500/year. Accounting services including payroll and tax preparation about $1800/year. Continueing education at least $2500/year.

Medical insurance . . . am I supposed to do without that in order to keep my shoeing fees affordable?

Retirement savings . . . give that up in order to make my shoeing fees more affordable?

The alternative a farrier has to make a decent living is to cut back on what they deliver and shoe as many horses as possible as fast as they can. Pull 'em out of the box, nail 'em on, get paid, and get out the door hoping nobody notices. There is a huge demand for cheap, contract labor. Why do a good job or even bother to learn how when so few "customers" know the difference.

[Tom Bloomer]

Still, for $20 for about an hour's work we, at least, can still afford to do a good job, even if the $100/hour for trims helps pay the bills far better (but is harder on the back as has been pointed out).So the trims are subsidizing the shoeing business at 5 to 1 ratio. Also subsidizing the cost of maintenance and replacement of everything used in shoeing. Also subsidizing the luxury of horse ownership for everyone having shoes on their horse. Also putting wear and tear on the body at 4 or 5 times the rate of shoeing.

[rcloisonne]

As an aside, my trimmer isn't completely against shoes. She encourages us to use different things, and to seek out a farrier if she can't fix something with a rasp, nippers, and hoof knife.
Why doesn't she give you the name of a good farrier then? :confused:

My old trimmer did go on to learn to shoe. He found over the years he couldn't help all of the horses he worked on with trims and boots alone. Started with glue-ons and went from there (not everyone can afford the $250 for front shoes only he was charging for the glue-ons with pads, DIM or Equipak). However, he'll only shoe horses with significant pathology that can't be helped any other way (severe laminitis, grade 4 clubs, NP coffin bones, etc.).

[Patty Stiller]

I will toss in another perspective as well.
I was barefoot trimming for a couple years before I began shoeing. I was doing it for for my own horses and hiring myself out as well.
I was pretty good at it, just part time making enough money to pay for my own horses board and such.
Then I decided to go to farrier school and make my hoof care career "official" by becoming a farrier,. That was 27 years ago. I had to invest three full months of my time, quitting my regular job to do that, and a lot of money , to pay tuition, acquire enough tools etc.
So in today's market, Lets say a barefoot trimmer does the same. He or she can not just go buy shoes and a hammer think they can fit and nail them on just because they can already do brefoot trims.

Farrier school is five to ten thousand dollars, and a time investment of 6 to 12 weeks away from work.
Hand tools beyond their already owned trimming tools.....about a thousand or more bucks.
Anvil, forge, stands, etc, another thousand to fifteen hiundred, minimum .
And if they have not been using a truck, they now need a truck. It adds up fast.

If they were a good trimmer and well promoted, working a lot, They were already making a good living just trimming without all that extra investment, so unless the incentive is wanting to be a full care hoofcare provioder who can do anything the horse needs, where is the incentive?

[matryoshka]

Yep, what Patty said. (And I still can't stand to drive nails.)

If I were to start shoeing, I'd want to do it right. So more learning is required, which means study at a good school and then apprentice to gain experience with as many pathologies as possible. The trouble with schooling is that you learn the theories, but application of those theories on individual horses takes experience.

That said, if I didn't have an aversion to nails, I would likely be shoeing by now, starting with the OTTB I used to own. Several farriers have offered to help me get started. But I'd want additional schooling, too. It's not enough simply to be able to attach a shoe to a hoof. Too many people are already out there shoeing horses simply because it isn't hard to shape and nail on a shoe. There's much more involved for the horse.

[Tom Bloomer]

Seems to me that there are very few full time career trimmers.

[trubandloki]

I have seen this suggested but not answered: Why not ask the trimmer you really like for the name of a farrier that they respect? I am guessing they have one.

I doubt you will convince them it is worth it to go thru the expense of putting shoes on when they have a busy trimming practice.

Another avenue is to ask your friends whose horses shod feet you like who they use for a farrier.


Right, because looking like they're desperate to be shod again after four weeks, when a previous six week schedule was fine is totally my fault for not getting them shod more often. Ridiculous.



How is that ridiculous? Am I missing something? You are the one in charge of the care of your horses, right? You are the one that should notice that this trim cycle their feet are growing faster and you are the one who should be calling your hoof care provider and saying, 'Dobbin is growing really fast this cycle can we please move up his appointment?' instead of blaming it on your farrier.
If you are trying to imply the farrier trimmed the horse too long when they were there last then that is also your fault. You need to say something.

Shrug.

[Auventera Two]

Seems to me that there are very few full time career trimmers.

Oh, I don't agree with you on that. I personally know at least 10 trimmers who do this full time to make a living. Then you've got the "big names" that we all know about through the internet. Some are part time (like myself) but then some fariers are part time also.

[Auventera Two]

How is that ridiculous? Am I missing something? You are the one in charge of the care of your horses, right? You are the one that should notice that this trim cycle their feet are growing faster and you are the one who should be calling your hoof care provider and saying, 'Dobbin is growing really fast this cycle can we please move up his appointment?' instead of blaming it on your farrier.
If you are trying to imply the farrier trimmed the horse too long when they were there last then that is also your fault. You need to say something.

Shrug.

Being re-shod every 4 weeks is not desirable, in my opinion and experience. Four weeks isn't enough time to grow out nail holes, and if you shoe every 4 weeks for too long, the foot just falls apart. Way too many holes and not enough time to grow them out in between. Been there, done that. The results aren't pretty.

I would not call it "the owner's fault" that she's looking for a different farrier because one is not meeting her standards.

[trubandloki]

Being re-shod every 4 weeks is not desirable, in my opinion and experience. Four weeks isn't enough time to grow out nail holes, and if you shoe every 4 weeks for too long, the foot just falls apart. Way too many holes and not enough time to grow them out in between. Been there, done that. The results aren't pretty.


So, during that short time of the year when the horse is really growing fast in your mind it is best to let them get too long instead of having a few extra nail holes?

Some horses at some times just need to be trimmed more often. It really is that simple.




I would not call it "the owner's fault" that she's looking for a different farrier because one is not meeting her standards.

Um, NO. That is not what I said.

It is no way the owner's fault that they are looking for a different farrier. (Well, it could be, as some clients are not easy to work for I am sure.)

But everything on the OPs list is not the fault of the farrier.

Those are two different things last time I checked.

Two VERY different things.

I think everyone needs to hire professionals that they trust to help them with the care of their animals. If changing farriers is what needs to be done to make that relationship work then for sure, change farriers.

[Daydream Believer]

Seems to me that there are very few full time career trimmers.

How is this relevant to the discussion?

I'm probably not full time trimming but I trim around 100 horses...usually going somewhere to trim 3 to 4 days a week not counting the horses here on my farm I do also...about 38 of them now. I also run a boarding/breeding farm, train horses, etc... so my days are over 12 hours long 7 days a week. I'll bet you even take weekends off don't you? I wish I could...I just work on the farm instead but I do trim a couple of Saturdays occasionally to help out my clients.

[Auventera Two]

Hu, well, whatever. I disagree.

As for nail holes - yes, horses do grow fast sometimes. But in my experience, even during the fast growth season, a horse NEEDING to be reset every 4 weeks means they were left too long to begin with. 5 weeks would be more acceptable to me. But I guess that's just my personal preference based on my experience with shoes reset at 4 weeks.

No, I did not say they should be left long. This is where I'd ask the farrier to change something, or get a different one. Resetting shoes every 4 weeks is a bad road to go down, in my experience. Then you have the farrier setting the nails low so that they can grow some of the holes out over the next month. Then due to low nails, the horse rips a shoe off and takes 1/2" of foot with it.

[grayarabpony]

If you are trying to imply the farrier trimmed the horse too long when they were there last then that is also your fault. You need to say something.



These types of comments make me see red. The owner is responsible for the horse's well-being, but may not notice that the horse's toes are too long until they work the horse, if they're not left way too long. And in the past few years I can't count anymore the number of times I've seen local farriers cut off the bottom of the foot on horses and leave the toes. The farrier is the one at fault for not trimming the horse correctly.

When my mare switched barns years ago, I got a farrier who was highly recommended by my vet. He sucked but he was better than the drunkard who couldn't nail on a shoe. Let me qualify that. If I watched over him like a hawk and ALWAYS reminded him about the toes he did a good job. Or at least my mare didn't trip. (This was back when I depended on a recommended farrier for good hoof care and didn't know much about horse's feet.) The farrier wasn't a baby, he was at least 55 years old. One shouldn't have to hold the farrier's hand and tell him how to do his job.

[Auventera Two]

I agree with what grayarabpony said. You hire a professional to do a job. They should presumably know how to do the job correctly. Owners should be knowledgeable in at least the basics, and have an eye on what looks right and what doesn't, but beyond that, the farrier/trimmer is the pro who is supposed to know the job.

I hire an equine dentist to do my horse's teeth. I trust her and she's great. She wants me to look and feel inside and see if everything looks good, and I know the basics to look for but that's it. No sharp edges, no hooks, incisors have been trimmed and meet up, jaw motion is uninhibited front to back and side to side. But beyond that, all the little nitty pickies of the job, I don't have a clue. That's why I pay her, and that's why I trust her.

A different dentist used to do the horses, but when I started noticing problems, I asked for a recheck. He said things looked great, don't know what you're talking about. So I called this lady for a 2nd opinion. She showed me that the previous guy never trimmed the incisors. She said most vets don't either. But if the incisors are catching on each other and not wearing evenly, then the grinding motion is inhibited, which is what had happened to my horses. She even thought that my mare's unaddressed overgrown incisors contributed to her ulcer problem due to her not being able to grind food properly.

Was I an irresponsible owner? I noticed a problem, I addressed it with the current professional who did not resolve the issue to my satisifaction so I enlisted the services of a second professional. She did resolve the issues to my satisfaction. That's just how things work.

[Tom Bloomer]

Seems to me that there are very few full time career trimmers.

How is this relevant to the discussion?

It is relivent if we're talking about the hoof care "business."

Is trimming alone a good enough "business" to make it into a full time career?

If you aren't depending on it, you don't have most or all of your eggs in the "hoof care for a living basket." Has to do with being involved vs. being committed.

When it comes to breakfast, the chicken is involved, the pig is committed.

[Tom Bloomer]

Oh, I don't agree with you on that. I personally know at least 10 trimmers who do this full time to make a living.
In the hoof care market that number is a statistically insignificant very few. Not even one per state?

Then you've got the "big names" that we all know about through the internet.
Ya mean Ramey, Jackson, and KC? Those "big names" started out as farriers then turned to "educating trimmers."

Some are part time (like myself) but then some fariers are part time also.Indeed. The difference is that many thousands of farriers are "committed" to farriery as a career. Dozens of trade schools exist to train farriers for a career. It is demonstrably VIABLE career choice. There is plenty of "demand" and plenty of schools attempting to meet the "supply."

By comparison, trimming as a full time career is (by your own acknowledgement) viable for an exceptional few. Therefore, it is tough to make a business case for trimming as a "career commitment choice" when the industry itself is not "demanding" a "supply."

The topic of this thread . . . it's about EXPANDING the business offering to meet "demand."

[Daydream Believer]

Is trimming alone a good enough "business" to make it into a full time career?

If you aren't depending on it, you don't have most or all of your eggs in the "hoof care for a living basket." Has to do with being involved vs. being committed.



Well, there is a hell of a lot more money in trimming than running a boarding barn. Training is not such a money sink but forget breeding and boarding if you want to make a decent living. In my case, it is the trimming that enables me to have and afford to do the other things...so in that respect I depend very much on that income. By your definition, than it is what I'm doing for a living right now; and, yes, I'm very committed to my clients and their horses.

[BumbleBee]

Androcles and LMH - thank you both so much I laughed out loud so many times in this thread I can't thank you enough.:D

[BuddyRoo]

I use someone who CAN shoe, just doesn't anymore due to an old back injury and would, if I asked, kindly refer to me to someone should I need to have shoes put on.

I personally am not planning to EVER do trimming or shoeing as a full time gig. I would be inclined to learn to shoe at some point should my horses (the main reason I learned to begin with) need shoes.

I've actually made shoes from bar stock under the watchful eye of a farrier friend, I've tacked on a few shoes....but the investment in gear and training is not worth it for what I do...which is basically trim my own and a few friends.

[matryoshka]

...The topic of this thread . . . it's about EXPANDING the business offering to meet "demand."Actually, the topic is about how one owner might convince her specific trimmer to start shoeing. She asked those of us who stick to trimming what it would take to get us to shoe. We answered, in various ways.

This is quite different than the direction you are trying to take the thread. You are also making assumptions about trimmers' reasons for staying part time vs. full time. It's a specious argument, and I think you know it.

[Tom Bloomer]

Oh come on Tom. Don't sink to this level. Of all the posters on this site, you are one of the best. Please don't be a jerk for the sake of trying to be funny. I personally know (in real life) about 10 trimmers who trim only, full time. That is only the ones that I personally know. There are many others, I'm quite sure, if I personally know about 10.
I personally know hundreds of full time farriers and have been involved in several local and national associations where there are thousands of full time farriers. In addition the American Farriers Journal puts out an industry survey every year on the demographics of the farrier industry. The demographics indicate that the majority of farriers are full time. How does me pointing out the obvious business demographics make me a jerk? Furthermore, how does me pointing out that a trimmer might take up shoeing for business reasons make me a jerk?

No, I wasn't thinking of them at all. I was thinking of trimmers that many of us know by name throughout the various regions. Trimmers who have a big reputation for the work they do in their part of the country.Big reputation to me means working on FEI/USET horses that cost more than your mortgage. ;)

Again, lets not stoop to such a level, hu? As a rule, you haven't usually resorted to attacking others as a past time, but apparently you are reconsidering that position now?
I'm not attacking anyone. I've clearly stated the reality of the demographics of the industry. Surely you aren't saying that you are offended by the demographics?

Everyone has their own reasons why they don't trim (or shoe) full time. It really isn't any of my business what those reasons are, and it isn't yours either. Within 10 miles of my house, I know of 3 part time farriers. Farriers apparently remain part time for various reasons as well.
As I'm sure there are part time doctors, lawyers, and school teachers who have their reasons for being part time. However, FARRIERY has been an established full time career choice for over a millenium. Trimming, as a "career choice" is in its infancy.

I assure you that I am committed 100% to the horses within my care.Balderdash! That's like a teenager saying she is 100% committed to her boyfriend. Committed means marriage license, joint property, you have no choice, and getting out of the relationship means destroying your life and starting over from scratch.

You have another job with benefits. You did not choose hoof care as a career and forsake the security of being an "employee." Saying you "could" isn't the same as having done it.

The demand for trimming has always been there. It is the bread and butter of the farrier industry. However, the growth of the backyard leisure pet horse and the decline of the working for a living horse - change in equestrian use demographics - is what is driving the demand for "career trimmers."

However, it is still a niche market that is not big enough to create a demand for "career oriented trade schools" to fill it. Far as I know, KC has the only "trade school" designed specifically to fill that niche. Somebody who decides to become a "full time career trimmer" . . . where do they go to learn the trade?

[Tom Bloomer]

Actually, the topic is about how one owner might convince her specific trimmer to start shoeing. She asked those of us who stick to trimming what it would take to get us to shoe. We answered, in various ways.

This is quite different than the direction you are trying to take the thread. You are also making assumptions about trimmers' reasons for staying part time vs. full time. It's a specious argument, and I think you know it.
I'm talking about business and demographics. You don't have a "business reason" for not shoeing horses. Your reason as stated is you don't have the self confidence to drive a nail.

[LMH]

Tom I really don't understand your point.

A trimmer can be committed to teh well being of her clients and have another job.

Sometimes taking less clients allows you to serve each one better.

I don't see how part time/full time in any way diminishes someone's professionalism-which is what you seem to be implying.

[deltawave]

If I'm hiring a tradesman or woman, I'm going to ask them "how many of these _______ have you done in the past year?" and "what are your available hours?", among many other questions. Someone who works full time in that trade is going to give me better answers to those questions than someone who does it part-time. It's not the whole equation, but it's a big part.

[Coppers mom]

How is that ridiculous? Am I missing something? You are the one in charge of the care of your horses, right? You are the one that should notice that this trim cycle their feet are growing faster and you are the one who should be calling your hoof care provider and saying, 'Dobbin is growing really fast this cycle can we please move up his appointment?' instead of blaming it on your farrier.
If you are trying to imply the farrier trimmed the horse too long when they were there last then that is also your fault. You need to say something.

Shrug.

Right, because no farrier anywhere has ever not taken off enough toe, and no horse anywhere has ever gotten progressively longer because of this. It's all those bad owners that work or have school or have other appointments :rolleyes:

I have owned my horse for 10 years, and he has always been fine with 6 weeks between shoings. He doesn't grow a lot of hoof in general, so for his hooves to look like they're desperate to be done at 4 weeks after 10 years of never really looking like he needs to be done after 6 is a big red flag. I think the farrier left him too long.

[LMH]

If I'm hiring a tradesman or woman, I'm going to ask them "how many of these _______ have you done in the past year?" and "what are your available hours?", among many other questions. Someone who works full time in that trade is going to give me better answers to those questions than someone who does it part-time. It's not the whole equation, but it's a big part.


Sure it should be a consideration. I have a friend that only trims her horses. She does a fabulous job. Far better than most professional trimmers and farriers I see.

Sometimes hours invested does not make one better. It just depends.

[eruss]

This thread is very insightful, a great learning experience, and most of all very funny. :lol:

[eruss]

I think I would beg the trimmer. Please Please, put some shoes on my horse. It doesn't matter if you have no idea how to shape a shoe, trim a flat foot, drive a nail, clinch, don't own any of the equipment to do it. Just please do it. I know you can do it. You do such a nice trim, I know you'd be good at shoeing. :lol:

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom I really don't understand your point.Did you go to law school because you couldn't find a good lawyer and decided to do it yourself? Ever hear somebody say, "I think I'll go to law school and take the bar exam so I can have a nice sideline business."

A trimmer can be committed to teh well being of her clients and have another job.That's sexist. It implies that a woman can serve two masters whilst a man cannot. Furthermore it is disingenuous because mastery of a craft or a profession requires committed effort, not divided effort.

Sometimes taking less clients allows you to serve each one better.Indeed. I serve a small exclusive clientele. I also entered farriery with a comitment to forsake other career options and focus my attnetion on developing this career as my profession without the distraction of yet another career that would interfere with my focus.

I don't see how part time/full time in any way diminishes someone's professionalism-which is what you seem to be implying.What I have specificilly stated is that commitment in regards to full time means choosing monitary dependence on a career without the security of another job. It has to do with confidence in the ability to sustain one's lifestyle with one's chosen career and one choosing the career as an identity.

If a person has two or more "jobs," they don't have a career commitment, they have diversified income streams. Commitment and dedication are terms that imply monogamy of focus. Professionalism has to do with conduct. Anyone can behave in a professional manner. OTOH, proficiency and mastry require dedication and commitment. Do you know any proficient part-time master litigators? Sure as shootin' I wouldn't hire one to represent me not matter how cheap their rates were.

When I pay my hard earned money to a professional, I want to be paying a professional that is dependent upon their job. They risk their career and their livelyhood. When it comes to business and careers, altruism is overrated.

[grayarabpony]

I think I would beg the trimmer. Please Please, put some shoes on my horse. It doesn't matter if you have no idea how to shape a shoe, trim a flat foot, drive a nail, clinch, don't own any of the equipment to do it. Just please do it. I know you can do it. You do such a nice trim, I know you'd be good at shoeing. :lol:

And you think that's funny why?

Why is there an argument about how many full-time trimmers are out there? I don't care if the professional is full time or not. I care if he or she does a good job.

Tom, I can see your point about being part-time and having less of a commitment. That can be true. But time constraints affect full-time workers just as much as part-time.

[AZ Native]

[QUOTE=Tom Bloomer, CF, RJF;430

However, it is still a niche market that is not big enough to create a demand for "career oriented trade schools" to fill it. Far as I know, KC has the only "trade school" designed specifically to fill that niche. Somebody who decides to become a "full time career trimmer" . . . where do they go to learn the trade?[/QUOTE]

There is the fairly new Equine Sciences Academy.

[Tom Bloomer]

There is the fairly new Equine Sciences Academy.
Yea, a real brick and mortar institution. :lol: In what state are they licensed as a trade school?

[Tom Bloomer]

But time constraints affect full-time workers just as much as part-time.
Indeed. I only have time for about 80 hours of continuing professional development this year. Next year I've budgeted over 100 hours. This is not unusual. It's more like average CPD for the 1000+ full time professional farriers that frequent such venunes as the International Hoof Care Summit, the AFA Convention, Palm Beach Laminitis Symposium, and numerous regional and local hoof care CPD venues.

What I'm talking about is full time professionals (more than 20 per state) who invest MORE THAN one full day a month of their time in upgrading their skills and knowledge. Nobody is twisting their arms to do it. The INCENTIVE is MONITARY. Since 2002 my total CPD investment is over $20,000. My return on that investment is measured in a %267 increase in my base fees since I hung my shingle. AND I have met thousands of full time professionals that have done exactly what I am doing.

What I don't meet on a regular basis in my CPD travels is part time "professionals." The reason is simple. They cannot afford the time away from their real job. Can't make the "commitment" without risking loosing that job.

Seriously, how many part-time hoof care providers can take off a full work week from their real job to attend the Hoof Care Summit? I suppose one could use up their paid vacation. That ought to go over well with the family.

A person can love 2 or more boy/girlfriends, but he or she can only legally commit to one spouse/domestic partner. Even in Utah and California.

[LMH]

Did you go to law school because you couldn't find a good lawyer and decided to do it yourself? Ever hear somebody say, "I think I'll go to law school and take the bar exam so I can have a nice sideline business."


[well actually I did go to law school to serve my personal needs and protection. So yes, I took the bar exam to have a nice sideline business. Well that and this odd need to learn everything I can about everything.]



What I have specificilly stated is that commitment in regards to full time means choosing monitary dependence on a career without the security of another job. It has to do with confidence in the ability to sustain one's lifestyle with one's chosen career and one choosing the career as an identity.


[That is the silliest thing I have ever heard! It implies first, that someone of means could never be committed to a career. If you believe that you have never spent time around truly successful people! People very driven to succeed or very committed to something (career, cause, whatever) invest themselves regardless of financial reward. ]


If a person has two or more "jobs," they don't have a career commitment, they have diversified income streams. Commitment and dedication are terms that imply monogamy of focus. Professionalism has to do with conduct. Anyone can behave in a professional manner. OTOH, proficiency and mastry require dedication and commitment. Do you know any proficient part-time master litigators? Sure as shootin' I wouldn't hire one to represent me not matter how cheap their rates were.

[Have you ever heard of an entrepreneur? Many a man and woman has had amazing success, financial and otherwise, having the toe dipped in several ponds. Again, you need to take a peek at the top of the success ladder. Every amazing business man I have known often has more than one thing cooking in the pot!]

When I pay my hard earned money to a professional, I want to be paying a professional that is dependent upon their job. They risk their career and their livelyhood. When it comes to business and careers, altruism is overrated.

I hate to break the news to you but MANY top professionals are far from financially dependent on a career to put tuna on the table.

I know and grew up around several such people. Hunger does not always the better business man make.

I could list 100 people I personally know that are flip your stomach with envy wealthy. Many of these men are over 70 years old, a few are in their 80's. Each one continues to work and is committed to his career.

Each one has children, many which work and are not in it for money and even grandchildren in the same position.

Commitment is NOT dependent on wealth or lack thereof.

If that were the case, we would never see wealthy people working. They would all be retired.

That is simply silly.

[LMH]

Actually the more I think about your comments, Tom, the more confusing they become!.

I can't imagine choosing someone for the job because they are financially dependent on that job.

I could give a rip if a litigator worked part time or not-if he was successful he would be hired.

How do I know if he does not have physical strains or personal strains that limit his time commitment? Perhaps a family member that needs to be cared for. Perhaps he is in the financial position to NOT have to work, can care for his family member because he loves them and chooses to continue working part time because he loves what he does?

What about trimming or shoeing. It is a physically demanding job. What if someone would LOVE to put in 40-60 hours a day but knows if she does that she won't last year doing something she loves? So she does it part time to be able to enjoy doing it more years. She limits her client base so she CAN serve each one well. Then depending on her financial situation, she works elsewhere if she must or does not.

In fact, financial desperation can work the opposite outcome. You mention being a slave to more than one master and you are correct. Someone that is in a career for financial reward alone is a master-to money. Not always to being good at that job.

I have always been taught that a way to being successful is choose doing something you love so much you would do it even were you not paid. When you have found this, you have found what you will do that will bring you success and reward.

Do you think Beethoven or Bach were excellent at music because of the money? What about missionaries or volunteers?

Most people are excellent at what the do because they are committed to doing that thing well.

All the desire for money can't ensure a job is being done well. You have to have talent and desire and commitment. Often financial success flows from commitment. Not the other way around.

[Tom Bloomer]

Silly is pointing out the exceptional exceptions to the norm. Silly is confusing dedication based on passion or charity with commitment and risk due to necessity. Silly is thinking that the independence and priviledge afforded by wealth, class, and nobility is at someplace other than the very top of Maslow's needs hierarchy.

From WIKI - "Translated from its French origin to the English "lover of", the term "amateur" reflects a voluntary motivation to work as a result of personal passion for a particular activity."

[LMH]

No Tom, it is not.

So agree to disagree. You have your observations and I have mine.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4301016]And you think that's funny why?

If you don't think it's funny, you obviously have no clue what it takes to be a good farrier.

[Tom Bloomer]

No Tom, it is not.

So agree to disagree. You have your observations and I have mine.
Yea. I thought Ted Turner was a heck of a boat captain back in the day. He kicked serious butt in the Americas Cup. Then I joined the Navy and learned about the real world. :yes:

[Coppers mom]

Tom, I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's completely true. Reiner Klimke trained more dressage horses to Grand Prix than anyone else, and he was a full time lawyer. I don't think that hinging your financial security on something means you're any less dedicated than someone who does, you just chose do go about things differently.

[grayarabpony]

Indeed. I only have time for about 80 hours of continuing professional development this year. Next year I've budgeted over 100 hours. This is not unusual. It's more like average CPD for the 1000+ full time professional farriers that frequent such venunes as the International Hoof Care Summit, the AFA Convention, Palm Beach Laminitis Symposium, and numerous regional and local hoof care CPD venues.



Not trying to argue here -- just genuinely curious -- how much of the continuing education would have to do with shoeing and how much would be useful for those who do not apply shoes/ drive nails? I assume there are techniques that could be applicable for use with boots, casts, and glue-on shoes? Can you give one or two examples of something you've learned in continuing education that is an extension/ change from farrier school?

[eruss]

Actually, the topic is about how one owner might convince her specific trimmer to start shoeing. She asked those of us who stick to trimming what it would take to get us to shoe. We answered, in various ways.

I guess the second question would be "what do I do now, my trimmer applied shoes and my horse can't walk or just lost a shoe and she can't get another back on?" :no:

It's an unfortunate event when an owner doesn't have the inside scoop on how to find a good farrier. I'm not sure what's worse, having a bad farrier shoe your horse or having a trimmer shoe your horse. Either way you look at it, it's not going to work out how you want it to.

[Auventera Two]

Tom - your arguments are absurd and completely off the wall. First of all, I work a very unique day job. I will spare the details but my schedule is very flexible. If I got a call in 5 minutes for an emergency, I could be there in the time it would take me to turn off the computer and drive to their farm.

People that I trim for actually like it alot that I only do this part time. I schedule appointments in the evenings and on weekends. That means they don't have to take off time from their day jobs to meet me at the barn. They also like it that I can take the TIME necessary to do a good job, answer their questions, point them to resources, fit boots, whatever has to be done, and it is affordable. They got tired of the 10 minute nipper trim with the farrier flying out the door to make the next appointment that he was already 2 hours late for. Their other option is to use a "specialty" guy, like yourself, who charges $75 a trim. With the service I provide, they get a more affordable price because I don't rely on this to pay my bills, and they get more flexibility in terms of time constraints and evening/weekend appointments.

I do this because I love it. The money I get from trimming and boot sales is extra. I don't try to convince people to use me instead of the farrier because my belly isn't depending on your bread and butter to feed it. I don't try to sell people boots they don't need, or up their trim cycle to every 4 weeks just to get more money. I truly do this because I am passionate about hoof care.

[monstrpony]

A trimmer can be committed to the well being of her clients and have another job.



That's sexist. It implies that a woman can serve two masters whilst a man cannot.

Major diversion, but ... not necessarily. One way to handle the gender PC issue is to alternate use of gender. Granted, that possibly was not the intent in this case, as most of the trimmers we know here are women, but even in the context of that dangerous generalization, the statement is still not sexist.

In any event, I think the discussion between these two is sexist anyway, in that Tom is taking a linear/male perspective, and LMH a multitasking/female one--and in making that observation I become guilty of the same brand of sexism. Not sure either of them are totally correct, though I see both of their points. This, from someone who's farrier is not totally committed to his craft, partly because of a parallel commitment to his hunting dogs, and partly because his wife has a good job, as well. Enough of an issue that I've taken my two horses barefoot and do some of the maintenance myself, between more widely spaced visits from the farrier. But he's a damn good farrier. Try sorting THAT one out.

Anyhow, carry on ...

[matryoshka]

I'm talking about business and demographics. You don't have a "business reason" for not shoeing horses. Your reason as stated is you don't have the self confidence to drive a nail.You misread. It has nothing to do with self confidence.

[matryoshka]

I guess the second question would be "what do I do now, my trimmer applied shoes and my horse can't walk or just lost a shoe and she can't get another back on?" :no:Let's see, Patty Stiller started out as a trimmer and learned to shoe. Does she do a bad job?

Around here, we've had several farriers come fresh out of shoeing school and start to work on their own, saying they've had enough schooling and don't need to apprentice. They've lamed horses. After about six or so, they leave the area. I can think of several off the top of my head, just in the 5 years I've been trimming.

So laming horses isn't limited to trimmers who start shoeing, nor does it mean that a trimmer is automatically going to screw up shoeing. That's your twist. It seems to be a function of an "I've learned everything I need to know" attitude. Can happen to men or women, people who start out just trimming or those who go to shoeing school. We already know from comments you made last year how you feel about women in general and trimmers in specific.

I'm not worried about laming horses if I started to shoe. I have an aversion to driving nails into living beings, doesn't matter that they can't feel it. It's why I did not pursue learning to shoe, and I wasn't aware of the problem until I actually nailed a shoe on. Each shoe got tougher, even though the actual nailing is easy. To the point where I'd shape the shoe and then not want to nail it on. I'm not pursuing glue-ons because I'm not willing to invest the amount of time it would take to learn enough to be good at it. Again, the gluing itself isn't tough. It's knowing what you want the shoe to do for the horse and what it will do to the horse that is important. Not a confidence issue. It's a working-mother-who-has-to-budget-her-time-wisely issue. Also, I've got plenty of business simply doing trims and don't need to "expand my services" into shoeing.

This thread did not start out as an argument about trimmers vs. farriers, but Tom has effectively made it so. It is pointless.

Unsubscribing.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;4301483]Let's see, Patty Stiller started out as a trimmer and learned to shoe. Does she do a bad job?


Besides seeing her name on the internet, I have no idea who she is or what kind of job she does. But I'm very confident her first shoeing attempts were not very good.

Around here, we've had several farriers come fresh out of shoeing school and start to work on their own, saying they've had enough schooling and don't need to apprentice. They've lamed horses. After about six or so, they leave the area. I can think of several off the top of my head, just in the 5 years I've been trimming.

Well Duh! Trimmers, people just out of farrier school, horse owners, none of them have enough knowledge to be shoeing on there own.

So laming horses isn't limited to trimmers who start shoeing, nor does it mean that a trimmer is automatically going to screw up shoeing.

It's not limited to trimmers. But asking a trimmer to please put shoes on my horse with no training is guaranteed to be a bad job.

That's your twist. It seems to be a function of an "I've learned everything I need to know" attitude.

Actually, it's a been there done that attitude. Nobody starts out being able to shoe a horse well. After a full year of shoeing horses, you're still not that good.

Can happen to men or women, people who start out just trimming or those who go to shoeing school. We already know from comments you made last year how you feel about women in general and trimmers in specific.

LOL! I could care less about trimmers. There's plenty of horses that need a good trim. But don't think some trimmer is going to all of a sudden put shoes on a horse and be good at it immediately.

I'm not pursuing glue-ons because I'm not willing to invest the amount of time it would take to learn enough to be good at it.

glueing on shoes doesn't take all that much skill.

This thread did not start out as an argument about trimmers vs. farriers, but Tom has effectively made it so. It is pointless.

I don't see much of a correlation between farriers and trimmers. When people suggest just anyone can apply a shoe correctly just because they can trim is a low blow to farriery.

If you look at all the internet sites with all the horses having problems with shoeing. You would think more goes into good shoeing than getting a piece of steel attached to a foot, but still people seem to think that.

[LMH]

Good point Coppers Mom and i did not know that piece of trivia.

Actually William Steinkraus (olympic gold medalist showjumper) was also a full time attorney I believe. He did pretty well doing horses 'part time.'

What about the obvious factor-talent?

You can commit all the hours, have all the need for tuna on the table and without talent, it still won't matter if you are working on something full time or part time.

Either way, quite amusing to think somehow financial need breeds talent!

[ponyjumper4]

To that note, the guy that won the Individual Gold Medal in Eventing at the Olympics (and team Gold) last year (he was on the team the games before that as well) is I want to say a dentist? In fact I believe he is a true ammy.

[Coppers mom]

\
What about the obvious factor-talent?

You can commit all the hours, have all the need for tuna on the table and without talent, it still won't matter if you are working on something full time or part time.

Either way, quite amusing to think somehow financial need breeds talent!

Agreed. Practice doesn't always make perfect. If it did, we'd have a lot more people at the top, be it riders, farriers, vets, anything. No matter how dedicated, sometimes, you're still no good (Hello! :lol:)

[Coppers mom]

To that note, the guy that won the Individual Gold Medal in Eventing at the Olympics (and team Gold) last year (he was on the team the games before that as well) is I want to say a dentist? In fact I believe he is a true ammy.

Gina Miles that won Silver for eventing this past year was also an Amateur.

[Tom Bloomer]

Not trying to argue here -- just genuinely curious -- how much of the continuing education would have to do with shoeing and how much would be useful for those who do not apply shoes/ drive nails? I assume there are techniques that could be applicable for use with boots, casts, and glue-on shoes? Can you give one or two examples of something you've learned in continuing education that is an extension/ change from farrier school?
Just about everything I have learned about biomechanics and shoe placement is radically different than what I learned in school. Much of what was taught in the school I attended is now different than what was taught when I went there. I know this because I went back there and had my trim evaluated by the instructor. AMAZING. THere is a bunch of stuff that I do differently than I was originallu taught in school - and most of it is now the same stuff that is taught there. MAYBE because even the school instructor himself has continued his education. Imagine that.

Often the latest research on orthopedics, nutrition, gait analysis, laminitis, navicular, and various other pathologies, treatments, etc. is presented at the hoof care summit and similar venues.

Very little if any of these conferences has to do with "shoeing techniques" or "fabrication." Most of the information presented is "intillectual" or "diagnostic" - how to recognize signs and symptoms, and thus applicable to vets, farriers, chiropractors, and body workers. Vets and licensed vet technicians get CEU credits to maintain their license at a lot of these clinics. It ain't about "shoeing" as much as it is about "horses."

Hands on techniques, shoeing, trimming, fabrication, etc. is best handled at the local level. I attend monthly hammer-in clinics. More often than not the forging and fabrication that happens at a hammer-in has to do with somebody working on their skills in order to stand for a certification exam. However, I try to offer a wet lab (guided cadaver dissection) at least once a year at my local association.

It suprises me how few hoof care providers have ever been through a real hands-on cadaver dissection. How the heck can somebody get useful information from radiographs if they haven't actually seen where all the soft tissue around the bones is located?

At nearly every hammer-in somebody brings a horse to work on. Usually the horse was used as transportation for an Amish farrier. So you are looking at a horse that works for a living under very demanding road pounding asphalt conditions. This is where farriers compare trimming methodologies, evaluate a horse's way of going, and "hold court" on how to best trim and shoe a horse.

When 20 professionals watch a horse move, then discuss what they see, everybody learns from everybody else. When professionals get together and share case historys, then people have an opportunity to learn from other peoples experience - face to face with the horse in hand.

OTOH, showing up at a hands-on clinic and getting your hands dirty requires one to put their ego aside. When there are a dozen professionals watching you handle a rasp and nippers, you have a dozen critics judging you skill under a microscope. So if you can't handle criticism and use it to improve, it is better to avoid the emotional stress of putting your work in front of your "peers." There is always somebody better than you at some aspect of the craft. There is always somebody who has discovered a more efficient way, better tool, time saving tactic, horse handling technique, business strategy . . . nobody is the best at everything.

Due to my participation in local farrier organizations, I have had the opportunity to see some of the top farriers in the world trim feet up close and personal while explainig what they were doing and why. Yes also I got to see them build and apply shoes, but first they took a history, evaluated the horse, did a gait analysis, made a conformation assesment, made decisions about balance, explained what they were seeing and what they would do about it.

I often see trimmers talking about all the bad farriery they have seen. Makes me wonder how many trimmers go out of their way to spend a dime to see good farriery done by world class farriers. None of the "famous barefoot gurus" who started out as farriers and then started teaching barefoot were ever world class farriers in the first place. So it's no surprise that farriers wouldn't go out of their way to learn from an ex-farrier turned barefoot guru when the ex-farrier never even made a blip on the farrier industry radar before they proclaimed themself an expert. Why do you think farriers make jokes about these "gurus?" It ain't like they were setting the world on fire as farriers before they went the shoeless route. When did these gurus develop their scientific intake protocols?

Occasionally I see "enlightened" trimmers talking about attending clinics with Wildenstein, Duckett, Taylor, Gregory, etc. Yes there are a few. But if you haven't invested time and travel to see some of these folks shoe a horse, you haven't seen what inspires us professional farriers to be more than we are. 'nuther words, you've been educated about farriery by observing bad farriery performed by folks who themselves probably haven't seen good farriery either. Its sort of like learning what clean is by walking in the gutter.

[Tom Bloomer]

. . . but even in the context of that dangerous generalization, the statement is still not sexist.

If LMH (the sexy long legged lawyer with tight abs) doesn't get my sense of humor by now, God help her. :lol:

Maybe just for fun I'll switch and start argueing on her side, just because I can.

Senator Fred Thompson is a great actor . . . on TV AND in Washington. :cool:

[Tom Bloomer]

Actually William Steinkraus (olympic gold medalist showjumper) was also a full time attorney I believe. He did pretty well doing horses 'part time.'
Do I need to point out that the Olympic competition is restricted to AMATEURS ONLY? Sheesh!

[TheOrangeOne]

Do I need to point out that the Olympic competition is restricted to AMATEURS ONLY? Sheesh!

Not since the 70s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games#Changes_and_adaptations

[Tom Bloomer]

You misread. It has nothing to do with self confidence.
I made an allowance that it did. I stand corrected. Your followup posting more clearly explained your "aversion" was in regards to "personal dislike" of the task for other reasons like smell, taste, aesthetics, boredom, etc. :yes:

[LMH]

Do I need to point out that the Olympic competition is restricted to AMATEURS ONLY? Sheesh!

I knew you would focus on that point. :lol:

The point my darling (said with no sexist intent whatsoever) is people can be HIGHLY successful at something without devoting full time to it.

They can be highly successful at something without the almighty dollar being the great reward.


But you knew that already since I know deep inside you are a thought-provoking deeply understanding male as opposed to that caveman, drag the woman by the hair sexist frump we all secretly crave.

AND Tomtom, what a brilliant idea on presenting the opposing team's side.

There is an old myth around law schools-the 'final' exam ...a long list of facts are presented. Question 1 is argue for the plaintiff, question 2 is argue for the defendant. End of exam.

I do hope, however, it means you are not comfortable switching teams in all areas of life, simple those of argument? :winkgrin:

[Tom Bloomer]

Not since the 70s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games#Changes_and_adaptations

OK. So, for all intents and purposes every Olympic competitor is now a "professional." Folks who compete in the Olympics pretty much have to give up their day job to be competative unless their day job is professional sports. It ain't like some Doctor is performing procedures and managing their practice while preparing for Olympic competition. It ain't like some lawyer is going to get a case continued so they can compete in the Olympics.

[Tom Bloomer]

The point my darling (said with no sexist intent whatsoever) is people can be HIGHLY successful at something without devoting full time to it.
My point is the "true professions" have barriers to entry, minimum educational standards, authoritative accrediting bodies, defined bodies of knowledge, established methodologies and protocols, and self regulation.

When these things do not exist, anyone can call themself a "professional whatever" and set about duping the public into paying them for "professional services." Most laypeople don't know the difference.

In 7 (count 'em SEVEN) years of full time farrier practice I can count on one hand the number of horse owners who have asked me about my experience, qualifications, and training. The MARKET has no barrier to entry because the market is blissfully IGNORANT.

In the hoof care industry these things are NOT formally defined, measured, or codified. This is WHY I challenge the pretenders and wannabes. Anybody can "say" they measure up. But I'm standing here with a big yard stick saying, "measured against WHAT?" Show me your INTAKE PROTOCOL. Show me your DECISION TREE. Describe your scientific METHODOLOGY and LOGIC. QUANTIFY your definition of "professional."

[Auventera Two]

What the eff does this have to do with this thread? :confused:

If you want to talk about how badly part time trimmers suck, then start a new thread for it. I'm quite certain you will get the ample input you desire.

Being a full time farrier does not exempt one from criticism and failure. I think we can all go over to horseshoes.com and read about the clinic with the horse cut to the blood and being shuffled over to the grass so nobody could see it..........I'm sure you know the incident to which I refer.

[grayarabpony]

Just about everything I have learned about biomechanics and shoe placement is radically different than what I learned in school. Much of what was taught in the school I attended is now different than what was taught when I went there. I know this because I went back there and had my trim evaluated by the instructor. AMAZING. THere is a bunch of stuff that I do differently than I was originallu taught in school - and most of it is now the same stuff that is taught there. MAYBE because even the school instructor himself has continued his education. Imagine that.

Hubby is a family doctor, so I know all about the value of continuing education. Plus, he likes to round in hospitals, to work with specialists. Someone has got to run the 3-ring circus when a patient has a lot of problems. He sees a lot of older patients with a lot of problems.


Often the latest research on orthopedics, nutrition, gait analysis, laminitis, navicular, and various other pathologies, treatments, etc. is presented at the hoof care summit and similar venues.


The latest research isn't restricted to a secret society. Anyone with an internet connection and a credit card can have instant access to this research.

I often see trimmers talking about all the bad farriery they have seen. Makes me wonder how many trimmers go out of their way to spend a dime to see good farriery done by world class farriers. None of the "famous barefoot gurus" who started out as farriers and then started teaching barefoot were ever world class farriers in the first place. So it's no surprise that farriers wouldn't go out of their way to learn from an ex-farrier turned barefoot guru when the ex-farrier never even made a blip on the farrier industry radar before they proclaimed themself an expert. Why do you think farriers make jokes about these "gurus?" It ain't like they were setting the world on fire as farriers before they went the shoeless route. When did these gurus develop their scientific intake protocols?

Occasionally I see "enlightened" trimmers talking about attending clinics with Wildenstein, Duckett, Taylor, Gregory, etc. Yes there are a few. But if you haven't invested time and travel to see some of these folks shoe a horse, you haven't seen what inspires us professional farriers to be more than we are. 'nuther words, you've been educated about farriery by observing bad farriery performed by folks who themselves probably haven't seen good farriery either. Its sort of like learning what clean is by walking in the gutter.

Condescending much? Are you sure your name isn't Stovall after all?

Would these world class farriers been able to make my horse sound long term? Actually I doubt it.

Shrug. I think there are things that farriers could learn from trimmers, based on current practices. I guess it's going to take a while for the science to catch up.

[pusher]

.

In 7 (count 'em SEVEN) years of full time farrier practice "

Only 7 years?? I thought you were one of the old timers??
Your just a kid.

[LMH]

My point is the "true professions" have barriers to entry, minimum educational standards, authoritative accrediting bodies, defined bodies of knowledge, established methodologies and protocols, and self regulation.

When these things do not exist, anyone can call themself a "professional whatever" and set about duping the public into paying them for "professional services." Most laypeople don't know the difference.

In 7 (count 'em SEVEN) years of full time farrier practice I can count on one hand the number of horse owners who have asked me about my experience, qualifications, and training. The MARKET has no barrier to entry because the market is blissfully IGNORANT.

In the hoof care industry these things are NOT formally defined, measured, or codified. This is WHY I challenge the pretenders and wannabes. Anybody can "say" they measure up. But I'm standing here with a big yard stick saying, "measured against WHAT?" Show me your INTAKE PROTOCOL. Show me your DECISION TREE. Describe your scientific METHODOLOGY and LOGIC. QUANTIFY your definition of "professional."

I agree with you 100%

Excellent strategy. When one argument is not winning the jury (part time trimmers are not committed/successful), change to argument B (industry needs standards, educational minimums, etc).:winkgrin:

Hugs and kisses.;)

[Tom Bloomer]

Only 7 years?? I thought you were one of the old timers??
Your just a kid.
Yea. For the 13 years prior to that I worked as an engineer or systems analyst. Prior to that I built and repaired boats. I'm sure something in my formal education in Naval Architechure, physics, business, and my mechanical background working with structures, and my business and scientific background working with standards somehow has clouded my judgement in regards to the hoof care industry. :yes:

[Tom Bloomer]

Condescending much? Are you sure your name isn't Stovall after all?Flattery will get you nowhere. :lol:

Would these world class farriers been able to make my horse sound long term? Actually I doubt it.
How did your horse get lame, long term? Who is accountable for the animal's husbandry? Is the lameness a result of trauma, neglect, ignorance, uninformed choices, blindly trusting a reccomendation? On what basis do you select the professionals you hire?

Shrug. I think there are things that farriers could learn from trimmers, based on current practices. I guess it's going to take a while for the science to catch up.Until the hoof care industry starts using the scientific method and physical law as it is used in other sciences, like medicine and engineering, it is the industry itself that needs to catch up with science.

[Tom Bloomer]

I agree with you 100%
Good.

I just started a part time law firm, Bloomer, Dewey, Burnham, and Howe, LLC. We're members of the steel and aluminum bar association.

Tried joining the healthy barefoot bar association but their police cuffed us and then booted us out of town.

[Tom Bloomer]

I think we can all go over to horseshoes.com and read about the clinic with the horse cut to the blood and being shuffled over to the grass so nobody could see it..........I'm sure you know the incident to which I refer.No you can't go read about it.

I know the incident because I was there. You weren't.

You also don't know the details or the history on the horse or who was doing what at what time. Never had the foot in your own hands, never talked to the owner, the vet, saw the radiographs, Whatever opinion you have is formed from reading second or third hand information that was provided with a political agenda. Appearently you fell for it. Bought the sales pitch.

[pusher]

Yea. For the 13 years prior to that I worked as an engineer or systems analyst. Prior to that I built and repaired boats. I'm sure something in my formal education in Naval Architechure, physics, business, and my mechanical background working with structures, and my business and scientific background working with standards somehow has clouded my judgement in regards to the hoof care industry. :yes:

Sure it will but I am suprised. I mistook you for an old experienced guy?? Your background and experience doesn't even match mine??

Just suprised that is all.

[Tom Bloomer]

Sure it will but I am suprised. I mistook you for an old experienced guy?? Your background and experience doesn't even match mine??

Just suprised that is all.
Yea. I'm only 49 + 1/4. It takes 50 years of experience before one can really know what one is doing.

[LMH]

Tom, that we agree about your last post does not allow you to slither away and ignore the fact that I noticed you changed the debate.;)

[Androcles]

I thought that law firm was Dewey Cheatham and Howe.

The issue you brought up before of relying on the income from trimming, or not, making you a better professional is actually a double edged sword. Not being totally dependent on the income from trimming actually allows the hoofcare provider to make decisions based solely on the needs and for the good of the horse, sometimes disregarding what the owner wants or insists on, which may not be in the best interests of the horse. For example, patching it up for shoeing after shoeing to keep it 'sound' and keep it going on the show circuit, or what have you.

[Coppers mom]

OK. So, for all intents and purposes every Olympic competitor is now a "professional." Folks who compete in the Olympics pretty much have to give up their day job to be competative unless their day job is professional sports. It ain't like some Doctor is performing procedures and managing their practice while preparing for Olympic competition. It ain't like some lawyer is going to get a case continued so they can compete in the Olympics.

There have been several amateurs in the Olympics, most recently Gina Miles for eventing. She was the only one that got an individual medal (silver), and did it all on what I believe is her one and only horse.

First, you based your information on something that was outdated 40 years ago, even though it is painfully obvious that professionals are now allowed to compete. And now, you're still going on without having all the information. Seriously Tom, I understand dismissing things you don't agree with, but please, at least have an idea about the subject before doing so.

[gypsymare]

Just musing aloud here... but there is quite a bit of natural talent that has to be accounted for. Some folks simply cannot visualize as well as others. I've seen several very experienced farriers not able to balance a medial/lateral plane. Some skills from other work transfers over. Artistry, mechanical ability, a "good eye".

I worked with an extremely good farrier who will never come on here and sing his own praises... he's not the type to. He's humble and successful and went to shoeing school right out of high school. I think he's in his mid to late fifties now. The man did everything from sky high padded Saddlebreds to hunters, dressage horses, Standardbred race horses, and back yard pasture puffs. His schedule is full and his prices are the high for the area. You'd probably never know his name outside of his territory, or hear of him as some guru of farriery but nevertheless he's one of the best. How do you measure or quantify that? You can sling titles around all day but it still doesn't mean anything compared to someone who is a true master artisan of their craft through experience and good judgement.

[Tom Bloomer]

I thought that law firm was Dewey Cheatham and Howe.

The issue you brought up before of relying on the income from trimming, or not, making you a better professional is actually a double edged sword. Not being totally dependent on the income from trimming actually allows the hoofcare provider to make decisions based solely on the needs and for the good of the horse, sometimes disregarding what the owner wants or insists on, which may not be in the best interests of the horse. For example, patching it up for shoeing after shoeing to keep it 'sound' and keep it going on the show circuit, or what have you.
Yes. When your living depends on it you can be forced into making decisions you disagree with in order to protect your business interest.

Walking away from an owner or trainer because you disagree with their husbandry practices is not always a luxury. A trainer with a "following" can seriously hurt your business and destroy your reputation - especially when they "need to blame you" for their mistakes and bad decisions. This happens with vets as well. It can happen as a result of a vet not liking you for whatever reason.

There are times when staying in business means treading very lightly because some non-professional has a bigger clout card with the equine community than you do. Imagine loosing 50 horses or more from your books because you stood your ground on an issue with a trainer or a vet.

Business risk.

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom, that we agree about your last post does not allow you to slither away and ignore the fact that I noticed you changed the debate.;)
I still stand on the business risk and commitment. One can earn a degree and pass the bar exam and become a "professional." The entry path is defined and codified.

When the entry path is not defined and codified, what is the basis of whether or not something is a "profession" and whether or not someone engaged in that activity is a "professional" or an "amateur?" What does it take to "establish" oneslef as a "qualified professional?" How long does one need to study and practice to become prificient?

When these things are not defined by formal standards, what remains is "what you do for a living." The word "commitment" seems to escape your grasp in regards to business risk born by the full time commitment and lack of business risk due to having other income sources. It has nothing to do with competence or achievement. It has everything to do with people making a living in a world where those with a full time commitment face risks and competition from those who don't have to compete. AND the market doesn't know either way. Without a standard against which to COMPARE qualifications, all that is left is "I do it for a living." Whether or not one is "good enough" is born out by the fact that one is "making a living."

Whether or not one "should" . . . a doctor that graduates last in the class is still a doctor.

[Tom Bloomer]

There have been several amateurs in the Olympics, most recently Gina Miles for eventing. She was the only one that got an individual medal (silver), and did it all on what I believe is her one and only horse.

No compensation?
http://www.mileseventing.com/sponsors/index.html

[LMH]

Yes. When your living depends on it you can be forced into making decisions you disagree with in order to protect your business interest.

[OH so you agree financial dependence could work in the negative! GREAT!]

Walking away from an owner or trainer because you disagree with their husbandry practices is not always a luxury.

[Oh but it is if you choose hoofcare part time and have another source of income]

A trainer with a "following" can seriously hurt your business and destroy your reputation - especially when they "need to blame you" for their mistakes and bad decisions. This happens with vets as well. It can happen as a result of a vet not liking you for whatever reason.

[This can apply to both decision but when you are not doing this for tuna on the table, such threats are much lighter in weight.]

There are times when staying in business means treading very lightly because some non-professional has a bigger clout card with the equine community than you do. Imagine loosing 50 horses or more from your books because you stood your ground on an issue with a trainer or a vet.

[Its called integrity, ethics, or something of the sort. Something most industries could stand use a little more.]

Business risk.

Well I knew you would eventually see my position. I just didn't think it would take as much leg and ab work.:winkgrin:

[Tom Bloomer]

First, you based your information on something that was outdated 40 years ago, even though it is painfully obvious that professionals are now allowed to compete. And now, you're still going on without having all the information. Seriously Tom, I understand dismissing things you don't agree with, but please, at least have an idea about the subject before doing so.
You are absolutely right. Mea clupa. In fact I should have avoided any reference to "professional sports." The corruption and loss of distinction is overwhealming. It appears that everybody is in it for the money one way or another.

[Auventera Two]

No you can't go read about it.

I know the incident because I was there. You weren't.

You also don't know the details or the history on the horse or who was doing what at what time. Never had the foot in your own hands, never talked to the owner, the vet, saw the radiographs, Whatever opinion you have is formed from reading second or third hand information that was provided with a political agenda. Appearently you fell for it. Bought the sales pitch.

I did not "fall" for anything. What was there to fall for? :confused: I read a thread giving a long and in depth volley back and forth of the story of a horse who was left bleeding at a farrier workshop after he was trimmed by a farrier. Some were angry. Some said it was no big deal.

The point was - you wish to discredit part time trimmers for not being "committed" but the truth is, even full time farriers who are fully committed to their job can be swimming in controversy and leave a trail of wreckage behind them.

[LMH]

I still stand on the business risk and commitment. One can earn a degree and pass the bar exam and become a "professional." The entry path is defined and codified.

When the entry path is not defined and codified, what is the basis of whether or not something is a "profession" and whether or not someone engaged in that activity is a "professional" or an "amateur?" What does it take to "establish" oneslef as a "qualified professional?" How long does one need to study and practice to become prificient?

When these things are not defined by formal standards, what remains is "what you do for a living." The word "commitment" seems to escape your grasp in regards to business risk born by the full time commitment and lack of business risk due to having other income sources. It has nothing to do with competence or achievement. It has everything to do with people making a living in a world where those with a full time commitment face risks and competition from those who don't have to compete. AND the market doesn't know either way. Without a standard against which to COMPARE qualifications, all that is left is "I do it for a living." Whether or not one is "good enough" is born out by the fact that one is "making a living."

Whether or not one "should" . . . a doctor that graduates last in the class is still a doctor.

Again Tom, I agree with your points. I have a big problem with read and raspers-one weekend with a hoof book and then saving the horse world one founder at a time.

However THESE arguments are independent or at the very least not directly correlated to your initial part time/full time argument.

Different people have different goals, different motivations, different abilities to apply taught skills. Money is not the creator of talent.

Some people actually do 'care' about the horse and well being. Others view hoof care as a 'job'-knock out some hooves (trim or shoe) and the bills get paid.

For example, I have no interest in trimming hooves 8 hours a day, 6 days a week. I simply can NOT physically do this, for one. I have other commitments, two. HOWEVER with the time I do have, considering my physical abilities, I want to 'fill by book' to the extent I can.

That does not mean I will just trim 10 horses a week and sit satisfied that I know all there is to know and am the best I can be. Committing time to continuing education is essential for anyone to stay on top of the game.

Does this mean it may take me longer to 'experience' all the things that can happen in hoofcare? Well of COURSE it will. Does it mean I may not be qualified to handle a particular hoof pathology? Certainly. If I am ethical and have the best interests of the client at heart, I will have a team arranged to make sure the horse is placed in professional hands.

No room for ego in this game.

On the other hand the demand for trimmers and farriers with any sort of talent and education is great-far greater than the supply. So talent will prevail over financial motivation. Hours invested will contribute to the experience but will not determine the talent. Any talent needing refining or developing will just take longer for someone investing less hours per week. Commitment may be no less.

As far as bending to the whims of trainers and vets. i can certainly see the challenges in that area. Again, my goal is not to make x dollars a year but to help owners (if I can) with what I have to offer. I have been where many of these owners are. Were it not the 'commitment' of others I would have been up that creek with no paddle in sight.

If any owner, trainer or vet has a different agenda I have no problem parting ways with no hard feelings.

But I would do that whether financially motivated or not. It is just how I view things. Would I feel the same if I were situated differently (think 4 kids dependent on me, whatever)-I don't know. I would hope not. I would hate to think my 'code of ethics' could be jeopardized by financial gain.

Call these ideals dreamy...but they are what they are.

[Tom Bloomer]

Well I knew you would eventually see my position. I just didn't think it would take as much leg and ab work.:winkgrin:
I've always seen your position. The arguement is a "construction" and an intillectual exercise as a means to an end. I asked for your help and you agreed to provide it. So far you are delivering as promised.

I'll send you a draft in a few weeks.

Ain't I a stinker? :cool:

[LMH]

Speaking of full time work Mr Tom, is today a holiday in your state? :lol:

hehehe. Enjoying the conversation. ;)

[Tom Bloomer]

The point was - you wish . . .
At no time have I expressed any wish at all. My participation in this discussion is from an industry business perspective. Set aside your emotions and discuss the industry business perspective. It would be an exercise in professional detachment. May I please talk to the left brain?

NOW I have made a wish. :yes:

[Tom Bloomer]

Speaking of full time work Mr Tom, is today a holiday in your state? :lol:

hehehe. Enjoying the conversation. ;)
Nope. It's one of them funky days.

[grayarabpony]

Flattery will get you nowhere. :lol:

And I would care about flattering you why? ;)

The lack of respect you have demonstrated here is why discussions can never or only rarely happen on this board.


How did your horse get lame, long term? Who is accountable for the animal's husbandry? Is the lameness a result of trauma, neglect, ignorance, uninformed choices, blindly trusting a reccomendation? On what basis do you select the professionals you hire?

Until the hoof care industry starts using the scientific method and physical law as it is used in other sciences, like medicine and engineering, it is the industry itself that needs to catch up with science.

My horse isn't lame anymore, since I took over trimming his feet myself. And don't even try to blame me for the problems he's had. That's assinine.

Forget about catching up with science. The hoof care industry needs to raise the bar on what's acceptable first. After how many hundreds of years of domestication, people still don't know how not to lame horses? Those seminars are presenting research are just presenting bits and pieces, bit and pieces that may be shown not to be true in 10 years. That's the way science works. ;)

[Tom Bloomer]

The hoof care industry needs to raise the bar on what's acceptable first.
How would the industry go about that? Who gets to say what is acceptable and what isn't?

After how many hundreds of years of domestication, people still don't know how not to lame horses?
Which people? Who decides?

Those seminars are presenting research are just presenting bits and pieces, bit and pieces that may be shown not to be true in 10 years. That's the way science works. ;)
They present information in a venue where the attendees can ask questions and get answers. So when the presenter reveals their conclusions, they may also be required to DEFNED them in plain view of the town. This is just a little different than publishing findings on the Internet and not having those findings subject to challenge and peer review. In a live lecture format, the audiance has an opportunity to challenge your authority - and often they do that. THIS is how science works. Theory is stated, tested, challenged, questioned and reviewed by peers. But hey, no pressure. ;)

[LMH]

How would the industry go about that? Who gets to say what is acceptable and what isn't?




Well I have a little free time since I am only trimming part time. :lol:

[grayarabpony]

How would the industry go about that? Who gets to say what is acceptable and what isn't?

They present information in a venue where the attendees can ask questions and get answers. So when the presenter reveals their conclusions, they may also be required to DEFNED them in plain view of the town. This is just a little different than publishing findings on the Internet and not having those findings subject to challenge and peer review. In a live lecture format, the audiance has an opportunity to challenge your authority - and often they do that. THIS is how science works. Theory is stated, tested, challenged, questioned and reviewed by peers. But hey, no pressure. ;)

Farriers can stop defending crap work, for one thing. I've seen it over and over again IRL and on forums.

lol Theory is challenged in the field and by other researchers, not by people asking relatively polite questions at a symposium. As if the presenter's answers prove anything, because they don't. Often questions are answered in part with "and we would like to look at such and such next". Research does only come out in bits and pieces, and hardly ever does one gets definitive answers in a symposium kind of setting.

[Tom Bloomer]

Farriers can stop defending crap work, for one thing. I've seen it over and over again IRL and on forums.

Lawyers can stop defending criminals. But what is or is not a crime is codified in the law.

Meanwhile you haven't answered any of my questions about who gets to decide who the professionals are. Since you haven't answered that question it must not be important enough for you to think about it. Let somebody else think about it?

lol Theory is challenged in the field and by other researchers, not by people asking relatively polite questions at a symposium.
Oh really? How many times have you attended the International Hoof Care Summit? The AFA Convention? Bluegrass Laminitis Symposium?

As if the presenter's answers prove anything, because they don't. Often questions are answered in part with "and we would like to look at such and such next".
Often? You've been to these events often? Who were the lectureres? What topics were discussed? Which round table sessions did you attend? Who were the moderators?

Research does only come out in bits and pieces, and hardly ever does one gets definitive answers in a symposium kind of setting.
One never gets definitive answers about hoof care unless the answers come from physical law - leverage and gravity. You know, codified.

You keep avoiding answering the question on who gets to decide. I think you know, but you don't like the answer. Easier to duck and dodge and act like you're insulted and disrespected by the question.

But this is the Internet. You're allowed to have a fantasy. So go ahead and fantasize. If LMH can dream, so can you. Just for a moment forget about reality and answer these questions:

Who SHOULD decide? On what basis SHOULD decisions be made about who gets to be a professional? Define that authority for us. Is it a person? A group? The govrenment? Who SHOULD be in charge of deciding who gets to be a hoof care provider? What SHOULD be their selection criteria? What SHOULD be the minimum requirements for education, skill, experience? How SHOULD these minimum requirements be determined? Who SHOULD enforce the requirements?

Remember this is a fantasy. You get to decide who gets to decide.

[grayarabpony]

Tom, I am very familiar with how the scientific world works. I have a degree in biology and worked in the scientific field for 5 years. Yes, I have attended many scientific lectures. What I have stated regarding scientific method and application is correct.

I haven't answered the question re who gets to be professional because you seem to be the only one interested in that issue.

The horse itself answers what is acceptable and what is not, by whether or not it remains sound. Ideally also someone who knows what to do in trimming and shoeing to keep a reasonably well-built horse sound long term. A horse care professional who cannot do that is not a true professional by my defintion, and by the definition of most reasonable people.

I'll let you continue on with your fantasy alone. ;)

[Tom Bloomer]

I have a degree in biology.How did you get that degree? Who decided that you met the critera to be awarded a degree in biology? What makes your degree equal to a degree awarded by another college? From where does the AUTHORITY to award a degree come? Can you transfer credits from this degree to another college? If so, why?

I haven't answered the question re who gets to be professional because you seem to be the only one interested in that issue.
So you really don't care? Anyone can claim to be a professional whatever.

The horse itself answers what is acceptable and what is not, by whether or not it remains sound. Ideally also someone who knows what to do in trimming and shoeing to keep a reasonably well-built horse sound long term.So somebody decides they know what to do. Hires themself out. After a year, some of the horses they work on are lame. Some aren't. Some of the horses think this person is a professional and some don't. Is that how this works?

A horse care professional who cannot do that is not a true professional by my defintion, and by the definition of most reasonable people.
So you have no problem with me reading up about biology in the internet and calling myself a professional biologist . . . as long as I don't screw up. AND when I do screw up, you won't have any problem if somebody complains about how screwed up the whole bilogy industry is and of course you would be included in that group - as a professional. Since I'm also a professional (because I said so) I should not have a problem with it either.

[Coppers mom]

Ok Tom, how about instead of being belittling, you answer your own questions? Who do you think should decide who is a good farrier and who isn't? Who do you think should come up with standards?

Or are you just too humble to say "Me"? ;)

As a side note, I can't believe you compared defending a bad farrier to defending a criminal. There are laws saying that a criminal deserves right to legal council, lawyers get money for defending them, and there is always a possibility that the person in question didn't actually do it. Is there anything like that for farriers? What do other farriers get out of saying "No, it wasn't that bad, the owner's at fault for letting him cut the foot off up to the fetlock"? And honestly, it's obvious that if a horse goes lame, starts bleeding, or has absolutely awful hooves 30 seconds after a farrier visit, there's a 99.99% chance the farrier did it. The analogy is, honestly, one your worst. I can't believe that someone so seemingly dedicated to improving farriery as you wouldn't immediately agree that farriers shouldn't defend or condone someone who's obviously doing a bad job.

[LMH]

Or are you just too humble to say "Me"? ;)




I actually volunteered.:winkgrin:

[ponyjumper4]

Gina Miles that won Silver for eventing this past year was also an Amateur.

Actually she's a pro, she's got sponsors. Nutrena is one of her big sponsors

[grayarabs]

Two of my trimmers work full time jobs that they love that include excellent benefits.
They trim their days off because they want to. They enjoy the hoof work and helping horses and their owners.
I have watched and learned from my trimmers - asked questions etc. Have read and studied just about every method via online, books and magazines. I was determined to learn how to trim my horse myself. I did for some time until past health concerns forced me to stop. I also trimmed other horses at the barn. It upsets me that I no longer have the physical ability to trim. I think I did a decent job. I know I did a better job than the "lettered" farrier that did some of the horses. His style was to "stand 'em up" - ie leave heels high - no bars trimmed - and nip into the sole at the toe when removing toe wall. Horses walked off sore and could not be ridden for days - some even weeks.
I never spent an hour in a hoof class. I never lamed a horse. I think that if one were to compare a hoof trimmed by said farrier vs one that I had trimmed - it would be agreed that I had done the better job. FWIW.

[Tom Bloomer]

Ok Tom, how about instead of being belittling, you answer your own questions? Who do you think should decide who is a good farrier and who isn't? Who do you think should come up with standards?The same people that come up with the standars for other professions. Who came up with the standards for a law degree, medical degree? Biology? Engineering? Before those standards existed, who got to decide who was a professional?

As a side note, I can't believe you compared defending a bad farrier to defending a criminal.
If you paid somebody to perform bad farriery, why is it my job to be the farrier police? I didn't force you to hire an incompetent. Why should it be my fault or any other farriers fault that horse owners hire farriers based on the sayso of other horse owners who don't know any more than they do?

There are laws saying that a criminal deserves right to legal council, lawyers get money for defending them, and there is always a possibility that the person in question didn't actually do it. Is there anything like that for farriers?
Yes. Disparing a farriers work is cause for legal action. But putting that thought aside, you and grayarabpony are FOS saying I have defended bad farriers. That is an outright fabrication.

I'm not the one who hired and paid for bad farriery - evidently SEVERAL TIMES? You hired them. You made the decision without due dilligence.

What do other farriers get out of saying "No, it wasn't that bad, the owner's at fault for letting him cut the foot off up to the fetlock"?
Who are the "other farriers" you are quoting? First you make up lies about me defending bad farriers. Now you make up stuff about nameless other farriers?

And honestly, it's obvious that if a horse goes lame, starts bleeding, or has absolutely awful hooves 30 seconds after a farrier visit, there's a 99.99% chance the farrier did it.
Other than accident of a mistake, which can happen to any person, blatant incompetance is, um . . . blatant. I've never seen a farrier defend blatant incompetence. OTOH, I've seen plenty of horse owners hire incompetent farriers, and then tell their friends about how great they were. Maybe you were one of the "friends?" Hired based on a recomendation from somebody who doesn't know any more about good farriery than you do?

The analogy is, honestly, one your worst. I can't believe that someone so seemingly dedicated to improving farriery as you wouldn't immediately agree that farriers shouldn't defend or condone someone who's obviously doing a bad job.
Again, you're FOS. If it's OBVIOUS, then why did YOU HIRE them????? I haven't defended bad farriers or bad farriery. OTOH, I don't defend people not taking responsibility for their bad decisions and attempting to blame ME or any one else for their poor hiring choices.

Why aren't you calling out the person who recomended the bad farrier - told you how good they were? Was it a close friend? Somebody you trusted? Was it a stranger? How did YOU DECIDE to hire somebody who OBVIOUSLY does a bad job? What is your defense? YOU are responsible for your horse's care. Now you want to blame somebody else for your bad decision. I don't defened bad farriers or bad farriery. AND there is no defense for a bad hiring decision - especially when it is OBVIOUS?

[Tom Bloomer]

His style was to "stand 'em up" - ie leave heels high - no bars trimmed - and nip into the sole at the toe when removing toe wall. Horses walked off sore and could not be ridden for days - some even weeks.AND people were paying him to do it. If you asked any of the people who hired this farrier, they would likely recommend him. RIGHT? Isn't that how you found all the bad farriers you hired?

When you see bad farriery, do you tell people about it? If you don't, why heck, you're practically DEFENDING the bad farrier! Shouldn't you be going to all the barns in your area and telling people who the bad farriers are? I mean you know who they are, right?

[Coppers mom]

Tom, how about, just once, you read something in it's entirety to try and understand the point, rather than just going through and replying sentence by sentence? Had you read the whole thing, rather than disagreeing sentence by sentence, you would have gotten a whole different meaning out of my post. It didn't have anything to do with you specifically defending bad farriers, or me hiring bad ones. Next time, please read for comprehension, rather than trying to come up with some jerky comeback.

[Tom Bloomer]

When you write something comprehensive, I'll read it. You started this thread by complaining that you had been through a bunch of bad farriers. They've ranged from disagreeing with what the radiographs said, filing the back feet into points (literally), leaving nails out, the shoes being loose immediately after they're finished, putting the nails in so low that the shoes only last 3 weeks, letting the hoof get super long/making them lame because they're so short, and more.Most of this is stuff you could have discovered by looking at some of these farriers work done on other horses before letting them work on yours.

Luckily, we have a barefoot trimmer that is amazing.So you got lucky. But you could have looked at this trimmers work done on other horses before letting her work on yours. Then it wouldn't be luck.

In a last ditch effort to get our shod horses looking good (they need studs, or have old injuries)
Needing studs and old injuries indicates specialty work.

, we've decided to get someone very experienced in corrective work to come down. It'll be expensive, but hopefully, it'll work.Hopefully? "Very experienced" according to what or whom? Have you seen this farriers work?

It's frustrating, because none of the horses need corrective work or special shoing, just someone who isn't going to do a complete hack job.This is a contradiction. Needing studs and old injuries? That is more than basics. You do need someone very experienced. But it helps to eyeball some of their stuff FIRST, just to see what you might expect to get. Here's some stuff to look out for:

"filing the back feet into points (literally), leaving nails out, the shoes being loose immediately after they're finished, putting the nails in so low that the shoes only last 3 weeks, letting the hoof get super long/making them lame because they're so short, and more."

If you see anything like that don't walk, RUN away.

What would make you, as a barefoot trimmer, start putting shoes on horses? Is there anything that could convince you?
If your demographics won't support good farriers (average shoeing prices below national average), it wouldn't be a good business decision for a trimmer (good or bad) to take up shoeing. Return not worth the investment. Besides, your horses can't wait for a trimmer to learn how to do good shoeing anyway. It takes years, not weeks.

Conversely, demographics that support good farriers, tend to lack trimmers (good or bad). Has to do with all good farriers being good at trimming and all bad farriers being bad at trimming.

[LMH]

Tom, on one hand you are complaining there is no standard in the industry-the other blaming owners for hiring bad farriers.

How can an owner know what is bad if there are no standards showing what is good?

What standards do you refer? What 'standards' are there in law, biology, etc?

Your posts made some sense at first (though not relating to any questions), the changed direction and now, well, seem sort of rambling for the sake of rambling.

[Tom Bloomer]

How can an owner know what is bad if there are no standards showing what is good?I was hoping somebody besides you would catch on to this and ask about it. I made a reference to seeing good farriery - named some names of world class farriers who's work inspires other professionals. If one hasn't seen the work of individuals with high personal standards, then the only comparisons one can make is bad and worse. Most horse owners hardly ever look twice at their horses feet. We schedule appointments according to arbitrary time frames because most owners can't tell when their horses need service. The only way to raise standards (as things exist) is for owners to demand better work.

What standards do you refer? What 'standards' are there in law, biology, etc?US Department of Education (USDE) accreditation. Every law degree in every college that is accredited by an organization established with the USDE - The American Bar Association? For vets it is the AVMA (American Veterinary Medical Association.) For engineers it is the American Body of Engineering Technology (ABET). All colleges courses that are eligible for Title IV funding under the USDE (Federal educational grands and loans) are accredited by USDE listed accrediting bodies. This is why you can transfer courses between colleges and have "credits" applied toward a degree.

Without an accrediting body to set standards, there are no standards. Accrediting bodies are formed by the professionals who practice the profession. They are self regulating. The standards are created and updated as the Body of Knowledge is developed. The body of Knowledge includes methodologies - like in medicine, the diagnostic process is clearly defined. In enginering and systems analysis the Systems Design and Development Life Cycle is clearly defined and taught in every course which awards an engineering degree or a computer science degree.

Without accreditation, any person claiming "professional" status is just using the word in a generic sense. The most generic sense is that it is something that one can do for a living. One can be a "professional stall mucker." But if one does not make a living mucking stalls, how the heck can they be a professional? What does it mean to muck stalls like a professional? Who sets the standards for stall mucking? With no stall mucking accreditation authority, the only consistent comparison is those who do it for a living and those who don't.

Whether or not one does a good job or a bad job is IRRELIVENT - good and bad are not codified. Getting paid to do something does not mean squat if there is no definition of how that thing is done by professionals and WHAT one must achieve in the way of skill and education in order to be able to do it to a minimum standard.

There's good stall muckers and bad stall muckers. Professional stall muckers . . . probably would resent somebody who cleans their own stalls calling themself a pro when they don't earn a living mucking stalls.

If you want to get ALL the poop, you need something more than a mucker - you need a stripper. Prefessional strippers make a living . . .

[aeronmack]

Well, avoiding the whole "barefoot vs. shod" debate, which will go on forEVER, I'm sure!, and answering the original question posted, I can recommend someone if you are in the middleburg area.... his name is Steve Purvis, and he's quite a character (good luck getting a word in edge-wise!), but he does a very nice barefoot trim, and also does a very nice job with the new PLRs, which I highly recommend if you haven't tried them. Long story short, I have just UN-retired my 21 year old TB mare who's been retired for 5 years due to navicular and general foot soreness... she competed at Elysian Hills 2 weeks ago and went clean! These shoes have made a REMARKABLE difference.... she is now sound and comfortable enough to compete!! Now all the rest of my horses are barefoot, so she was an exception, but with great results! Try Steve if you are in this area, or at least try to find someone who knows about these PLRs. If you have them glued as well as nailed, they last 8 -12 weeks or more!

[grayarabpony]

Just musing aloud here... but there is quite a bit of natural talent that has to be accounted for. Some folks simply cannot visualize as well as others. I've seen several very experienced farriers not able to balance a medial/lateral plane. Some skills from other work transfers over. Artistry, mechanical ability, a "good eye".

I worked with an extremely good farrier who will never come on here and sing his own praises... he's not the type to. He's humble and successful and went to shoeing school right out of high school. I think he's in his mid to late fifties now. The man did everything from sky high padded Saddlebreds to hunters, dressage horses, Standardbred race horses, and back yard pasture puffs. His schedule is full and his prices are the high for the area. You'd probably never know his name outside of his territory, or hear of him as some guru of farriery but nevertheless he's one of the best. How do you measure or quantify that? You can sling titles around all day but it still doesn't mean anything compared to someone who is a true master artisan of their craft through experience and good judgement.

I wanted to say how much I like this post... I think being a farrier or trimmer will always be part science and part artistry (or right side of the brain, if you prefer :)).