Spinoff from AC4H "Power of COTH" thread [Archive]

JLMet

Aug. 6, 2009, 02:22 PM

She's done rescue before and like my case, I have the means to take care of Rally, just couldn't put up the full amount for his ransom and everything else. This was her response which is what led me to post here that someone was interested if we could help her...

"I looked around the AC4H website and found a grey TB that really
caught my eye...he looks a lot like my grey Standardbred. I emailed
Christy about him..I'd love to help keep him from being sent to
slaughter...he's with the brokers now (ARGGGGHHH). I cannot afford to
'buy him', since my own rescue expenses keep my funds pretty slim, but I
would take him in and foster him if they could raise his ransom (I could
help a bit....just not all of it)....I didn't hear back yet, but I'm sure
she is busy and I know they are 'in' Wed-Fri, so I hope to hear something
back.....You should go take a look...he is a recent rescue."

Her name is Tammy and I sent her the link to this forum and told her to sign up as well. Rally is doing awesome and whinnied to me at dinner time which was a first. He also made me laugh when I did my last night check (around 1am) gave him an extra flake of hay and came in. You can see the stairway light in my house from his stall and the second I shut the light he let out a very loud neigh. I felt so bad and was very tempted to sleep in the barn (but what would that have taught him?) He's doing great though. Added electrolytes to one of his buckets but he's still hardly drinking any. Hopefully he'll get the hang of it soon.

TammyM

Aug. 6, 2009, 03:11 PM

Hello!
First I would like to say what a pleasure it is to ‘meet’ you all! I found this website through Jessica that recently rescued the ASB. I met her by trying to help with her transport needs for the gelding. “There are no coincidences! Things happen for a reason!”
Anyway, I am an approved foster home for Standardbred Retirement Foundation (SRF). I have been fostering for them for the past 5 years…after moving to my own place…a 10 acre private farm in Germansville, PA. I’ve had horses my entire life and I adopted my first horse from (SRF) 13 years ago…she’s still with me, of course!
When I went to check out the gelding that Jess was rescuing it absolutely broke my heart, as I would love to save them all. It’s a disgrace and so very sad what happens to these beautiful creatures! Anyway, the grey TB gelding caught my eye…he looks a lot like my grey Standardbred gelding. As much as I’d like to ‘save them all’ (as we all would!), I have learned to accept that I cannot…BUT, that my helping even just one is something!
I have the room and the means to take him in and take really good care of him; however, I do not have the funds to ‘buy him’. I am actually taking in a TB gelding next week as I have a Standardbred going out for adoption.
I do not know how to reach the brokers directly….and I’ve tried to reach Chrissy about trying to save this grey TB gelding by getting his ‘ransom’ raised, but I haven’t heard back from her yet. I will do what I can…I can get him transported from New Holland…I can give him a stall and a home and love…I just need to get the financial help to get him saved from slaughter! I welcome any questions you have….I saw that someone said he is scheduled for Thursday…GOD, I hope that is next week and not today!!!! Please let’s ban together and get him another chance at the good life he so deserves!
Again…nice to ‘meet’ you all….I look forward to getting to know you and actively participating on the forums!!!
Take Care-
Tammy

Kneigh

Aug. 6, 2009, 04:19 PM

A link to his listing on the ac4h would be good.

ASB Stars

Aug. 6, 2009, 05:56 PM

We should probably try a new thread...more steam!

Kneigh

Aug. 6, 2009, 06:43 PM

New link is a good idea if someone can make sure the horse is still available.

TammyM

Aug. 6, 2009, 06:52 PM

http://www.ac4h.com/BrokerOwned3.htm
Here is the link for the grey TB I am looking to collect ransom for! His ransom is $800.
His 'number' (God forbid they allow themselves to use 'names'!!!!) is 7-21-08.
Since I don't have the heart to go to New Holland and select 'just one' to save, while seeing all the others that are sentenced to death and innocently waiting for the trailer ride from hell to get to 'hell' to be brutally killed and consumed...this is my way to do it! The horses I have rescued were going to be sent to the sale...and ultimately stood a good chance to be sold to the killers/brokers....but I intercepted their going there. I totally commend the folks that regularly visit the sales and either out-bid the killers...or go to the killer pens after the sale and 'pull some out'! I wish I could, but I know myself and I don't have a tough enough skin for it...that and I'd probably get arrested for my interactions with the many horrible people that aren't there to rescue...but to sell and/or slaughter bound buyers....
Anyway...I'm new to this website and the forum...but I agree, if we could post a new thread about this 'rescue effort', that would be great. I'm not sure where the best place to post such a thread would be. If someone can start one, great....OR, if someone can point me in the right direction...I'll do it.
Thanks Everyone!!
Tammy

ASB Stars

Aug. 6, 2009, 06:56 PM

Christy is calling to see if he is still available- cross your fingers, and stay tuned!

BeverlyAStrauss

Aug. 6, 2009, 08:25 PM

I also posted on the other thread, I believe this horse has been purchased from the dealer and is going to a rescue. His name is Storm Exchange. That was the arrangement from last night. He was supposed to leave today.

ASB Stars

Aug. 6, 2009, 08:27 PM

Well, HOORAY for him! Obviously, we do better with ASBs and WBs around here... :lol:

JLMet

Aug. 6, 2009, 10:14 PM

Well I'll be quite confused. I know here we thought he was rescued but in the other forum....

#29 Aug. 6, 2009, 09:55 PM
FancyASB
Training Level Join Date: Aug. 5, 2009

I just received this from Christy "I just got off the phone with the broker he went down to the barn to look and said he is looking at the horse he is still there and no one has helped him. He still needs a home." So if anyone is interested in donating let Christy know. christy@ac4h.com

ETA On AC4H's site it says this next to his pics "Coth Forum is sending payments for this horse to go to his home. " So what's the verdict?

ASB Stars

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:29 AM

Due, no doubt, to the assertion made by Hitch, that somehow AC4H was not a bonafide 501, the other thread was pulled. The grey gelding is still at risk- and he is available. Sadly, Bev's information was not about this gelding, apparently- I hope another one got saved.

In any event, I have PM'd the Mods, to ask for some clarification.

If it is necessary for us to donate to AC4H, rather than simply send funds, and have the horse pulled, we will need to have our potential adopter approved. This will also allow all donations to be tax deductable, and you will receive a receipt from AC4H for your taxes. Tammy, I would suggest that you fill out the necessary forms on AC4H's site, and we can do this according to Hoyle. At that point, we will be working to save a horse directly through the process, and, while there will still be those who do not agree, we wll be in line with the fine print of COTHs requirements.

Make sense?

Marli

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:32 AM

I just now saw this discussion about the grey TB gelding. He was tentitively ID'd as Storm Exchange (I would not represent him 100% on that ID but I'd say it's highly likely that is who he is). I asked Christy about him the other day as he's been available for two weeks- there was only one private inquiry on him and nothing came through/no further interest.

Not sure if he's still available as there was a load of horses that did ship. Will check to see one way or the other.

Marli

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:40 AM

I don't have time to check back through this discussion- however I just read in this thread that someone is questioning the 501c3 status of AC4H.

Here's a clue- click on this link, scroll down the individual states and locate PA. Click the index representing the letter 'A'

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/charitablestats/article/0,,id=97186,00.html

equineartworks

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:44 AM

Marli I think people were questioning the status of the potential adopter, not AC4H. :)

eta...I just read the post from ASB_Stars, I guess I spoke too soon. Sorry about that!

ASB_Stars-

"If it is necessary for us to donate to AC4H, rather than simply send funds, and have the horse pulled, we will need to have our potential adopter approved. This will also allow all donations to be tax deductable, and you will receive a receipt from AC4H for your taxes. Tammy, I would suggest that you fill out the necessary forms on AC4H's site, and we can do this according to Hoyle. At that point, we will be working to save a horse directly through the process, and, while there will still be those who do not agree, we wll be in line with the fine print of COTHs requirements."

I completely agree!

Marli

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:52 AM

Equineartworks-

just posted on the other new discussion- but I see now what the situation is. Tammy needs to complete the requested info for AC4H if there's going to be any attempt to save this fella (references/approval to adopt).

Moderator 1

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:54 AM

That's right folks, to comply with the forums' guidelines, the proceeds from any fundraising activities conducted here must go directly to a 501c3 organization.

If AC4H sets up a fund for the TB, someone is welcome to start a new thread about it.

ETA: We do understand some COTHers concerns about the idea of sending donations or promoting horses that profit a broker and we have/continue to debate the where to draw "the line" on issues like this.

At this time, if a 501c3 organization is able to legally accept funds as tax-deductible donations, it passes muster per our current rules. We have currently allowed AC4H broker listings in general under a similar framework as we do OTTB trainer listings with other 501c3 organizations.

We very much understand the differences in these situations and why people would prefer to support one situation over the other, and we continue to examine the best, most fair way to establish rules to govern these situations on the forums.

We don't want to sidetrack this thread with a debate about the topic, so please feel free to PM or email me with your thoughts.

Thanks!
Mod 1

ASB Stars

Aug. 7, 2009, 08:34 AM

The funds always go to AC4H for horses we have helped in this way. They are never collected by a private individual. The difference is that here, we are talking about an actual adoption, and for the prior two horses, the "purchase" was made under the auspices of AC4H, however, it was not an adoption.

I received a phone call from Christy last night at 9:45, and two emails- sadly, Bev's information appears to have been incorrect, and this horse is still available.

We need to get an idea of what kind of time frame we can do this in, and see if the Broker will hold him. I will also inquire as to whether the price is firm.

beesknees

Aug. 7, 2009, 09:03 AM

Just wanted to bring attention to "6-22-Warmblood type TB gelding aged hubby type unflappable attitude mount. Kill buyer owned.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY7n694o3NI"
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3352/3653287535_748eff0ba9.jpg?v=0

I just donated 35$, he still needs about 350.00$

guh, trying not to cry! Frig, when I'm no longer a poor student I'll start to become a poor horse person--sigh.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Aug. 7, 2009, 09:10 AM

Just to put in my two cents - I did donate my dribble. Whether it counts as a donation to AC4H or not - it helped to save a horse.

I think rescues run a very fine line in a situation like this - AC4H, like (for example) CANTER, tries to keep a good relationship with brokers in an effort to save horses before they end up in the kill pen (perhaps the next stop). It is a different route, but it can still save a horse from a potentially very bad end.

I can also appreciate that some people feel uncomfortable donating in this way, and that is absolutely their right. It is a very emotional issue. And so if they feel moved to donate, they can still do so to any one of a number of fine 501(c)3 equine organizations, including AC4H, to help them help the horses currently in their rescue/being fostered.

It's all good.

ASB Stars

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:12 AM

Christy is trying to sort out this situation. Everyone wants to see this horse (the grey) and every other one find great homes, however, they are trying, at this time to find out exactly what the situation is, prior to any fundraising, etc.

Stay tuned!

hitchinmygetalong

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:17 AM

Due, no doubt, to the assertion made by Hitch, that somehow AC4H was not a bonafide 501, the other thread was pulled.

I would like to clarify something here. I never implied that AC4H was not a legitimate 501(c)3. I said that "Tammy" was NOT a 501(c)3 - something she herself stated earlier in the thread that got pulled.

Please don't give me the dubious "honor" of having a thread pulled when it was most certainly none of my doing.

ASB Stars

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:36 AM

OK, here is your post, Hitch:

I need to check my facts here.

A person vaguely associated with someone from AC4H spots a horse on a "dealer" page. "Ransom" on the horse is $800.

Potential rescue person has facilities to take horse but not the cash for the "ransom".

Potential rescue person is NOT a 501(c)3.

Rules of this board --- if you're not a 501(c)3, you cannot solicit funds.

A second person posts on this board looking for donations for AC4H to pay the "ransom" on the horse so the "rescue" can take him.

No thanks, I'll pass. I'm about as good a tax lawyer as I am an astrophysicist, but I'm sure if people were to read the fine print, there are some tax laws being bent if not broken by this particular situation. There are a number of horse-related 501(c)3 charities that don't pass the smell test, and this is precisely why. Too much "dealing" going on behind the scenes.

My point was that your facts were all over the place. Just to be clear, if I am any of the "persons" referred to, I never, at any time, proposed sending any individual money. I was then, as before, looking to work through AC4H to pull this gelding, and rehome him. Obviously, we cannot do that without a home for him to go to- and I was working with the idea that Tammy could be that person.

All of this is moot, as he apparently is going to MidAtantic rescue- with Bev, or at least that is my best understanding, at the moment.

CatOnLap

Aug. 7, 2009, 11:20 AM

OK, here is your post, Hitch:

(start hitchin's post)
I need to check my facts here.

A person vaguely associated with someone from AC4H spots a horse on a "dealer" page. "Ransom" on the horse is $800.

Potential rescue person has facilities to take horse but not the cash for the "ransom".

Potential rescue person is NOT a 501(c)3.

Rules of this board --- if you're not a 501(c)3, you cannot solicit funds.

A second person posts on this board looking for donations for AC4H to pay the "ransom" on the horse so the "rescue" can take him.

No thanks, I'll pass. I'm about as good a tax lawyer as I am an astrophysicist, but I'm sure if people were to read the fine print, there are some tax laws being bent if not broken by this particular situation. There are a number of horse-related 501(c)3 charities that don't pass the smell test, and this is precisely why. Too much "dealing" going on behind the scenes.(end hitchin's post)

My point was that your facts were all over the place. Just to be clear, if I am any of the "persons" referred to, I never, at any time, proposed sending any individual money. I was then, as before, looking to work through AC4H to pull this gelding, and rehome him. Obviously, we cannot do that without a home for him to go to- and I was working with the idea that Tammy could be that person.

All of this is moot, as he apparently is going to MidAtantic rescue- with Bev, or at least that is my best understanding, at the moment.

That's a serious mis-read on your part ASBS.

Hitchinmygetalong clearly states it is her objection to the person who wants to adopt the horse but apparently doesn't have enough money to pay the adoption fee. Why on earth would she want to adopt a horse she obviously cannot afford to pay for? How will she feed him, vet him, shoe him, blanket him, etc.? And it is clearly against the forum rules to solicit funds in this way as the potential adopter who is not a registered charitable organization. Hitchin is right.

Sithly

Aug. 7, 2009, 11:21 AM

Well, I wouldn't blame Hitch for that. There were quite a few posters asking very legitimate questions about where the money was going.

Getting good answers to those questions benefits everyone on this board, including AC4H. It also helps grease the wheels for other rescues to post here in the future.

OTOH, vague responses and guilt trips about saving the horses don't help anyone and make it harder for legitimate rescues to establish a relationship of trust with their donor pool. We were basically told not to ask questions, and not to worry about where the money is going if we care about the horses.

Sorry, not going to buy that; it's emotional manipulation. As a potential donor, I resent it. I want to know who my money is going to and what it's being used for.

ASB Spotz

Aug. 7, 2009, 12:08 PM

:confused: What is the issue here?? When I went to donate funds to help save the Saddlebred, I went directly to AC4H's website, read the 501c3 info, and made a donation directly to them, noting the purpose. It's the responsibility of the person donating funds to do the due diligence on the cause they are donating to. I do this with any charitable giving I do.
As far as the rescuer not being able to pay the "ransom", I understand this as well. When you DO factor in transport, vetting, farrier, feed, or board, etc., it does get awfully expensive to rescue a horse who may or may not even be ridable. I can totally understand a rescuer saying that they can justify X,Y,Z costs, as well as take on the responsibility of additional and unexpected costs, but needing assistance with transport or ransom, to make the costs within reason. A person's financial situation is not for us to judge. Obviously the horse in question is FAR FAR FAR better off than he was, and that's the whole point.

RedMare01

Aug. 7, 2009, 12:34 PM

Well, when everything gets straightened out, let us know so that those of us that want to can help get this horse (s) to a better place. :yes:

Caitlin

CatOnLap

Aug. 7, 2009, 12:41 PM

A person's financial situation is not for us to judge. Obviously the horse in question is FAR FAR FAR better off than he was, and that's the whole point.

Actually, I would hope a legit rescue DOES judge a potential adopter's financial situation to make sure they can live up to the commitment that adopting entails. Not to do so seem irresponsible and unprofessional on the part of the rescue organization.

If a person cannot find the money to pay the reasonable adoption fee, it is reasonable to presume they will also not have the money for the other expenses such a project may nbeed. The few hundreds needed to support the rescue as an adoption fee are generally going to be less than the combination of the horse's first vet visits, treatments, farrier work and board. Yes, I ahve adopted and rescued many animals. I know very well that there are generally unexpected costs involved and if you are not prepared to meet those costs, you have no business trying to rescue anything. Put your own financial house in order first. It is better for a horse to be killed quickly than to starve, be neglected or linger on a subsistence diet and care when an adopter does not have the wherewithall to even pony up the initial fees, never mind the ongoing care.

It is not at all obvious to me that a horse going from a rescue, to an adopter, to a dealer, back to the rescue and then to an impoverished adopter, is better off at all.

ASB Spotz

Aug. 7, 2009, 01:11 PM

BabyGreen

Aug. 7, 2009, 01:28 PM

How about if the recipient of the horse (anytime people donate to cover broker fee) agrees to donate back that fee to an approved, tax exempt rescue when and if the horse is sold.

Angela Freda

Aug. 7, 2009, 01:36 PM

I'm not talking about when a rescuer is *unable* to pay for the fee, but when you are trying to justify total costs, that it is acceptable to ask for assistance. I've had personal cases where I'd have to go my husband and say that we're going to be out of pocket $1-2k right off the bat for a sight-unseen rescue (rescue fee + transport). There's just no way he'd agree to that, even though we do have the funds, especially knowing that the medical costs have the potential to be astronomical, once said horse arrives. I am much more likely to gain his support, and stay married ;), if I can work a deal with a transport co., get generous support from people who would like the tax write-off to help with the fee, etc. It's called working within a budget, and it's important when there's a GIANT question mark attached to that budget for vet and farrier costs.
But in this case, the broker horse going to a private individual, the donations are not tax deductible. Honestly there are so, so many horses on C'list for less than this horse or free who are also 'in danger'. If Tammy has room, but a limited budget maybe that is just a better route, right now? Or saving the $$ that would have gone towards bills for this horse and having it on hand for 'bail' for the next horse on the broker lot who speaks to her?

I have a lovely 2 acre field, and I would love nothing more than to bring a couple rescue horses or ponies here. But first I am responsible to the animals I already have [1 horse, 2 rescue dogs and 4 rescue cats] and right now that means the field sits empty because even with people willing to donate... there may come a day when they can not and one really should go into this assuming they are shouldering all the costs.
[my personal work, since I can not have rescued horses here, is in trying to get the slaughter bills passed so that horses are no longer in danger of slaughter, as well as volunteering with my local rescue.]

ASB Spotz

Aug. 7, 2009, 02:20 PM

The bottom line is that when giving to any cause, we each have to make our own judgement call as to whether or not we feel the situation is the best, or at least better, for the horse. That's going to be different for everyone. Can we get back on topic?
I'd love more updates on the ASB gelding, the WB mare, and what the current situation is with the TB?

FancyASB

Aug. 7, 2009, 04:35 PM

The gray TB gelding is safe, this is from Christy- "Ladies this guy is secured by Bev of Mid Atlantic Rescue. He will be going home with her Monday and she is paying for him. Thank you Bev for pulling him. Ladies if there is further interest in him please contact Bev to discuss."

Miss Aria

Aug. 7, 2009, 06:43 PM

But in this case, the broker horse going to a private individual, the donations are not tax deductible. Honestly there are so, so many horses on C'list for less than this horse or free who are also 'in danger'.

This statement caught my eye because, while it's true, it isn't really relevant. If a person falls in love with a horse at a broker's and there are generous people out there who see that love and see that a horse could be saved from the auction circuit/slaughter by their helping the person GET that horse, then why judge whether or not that person should get the horse but instead should go to Craig's List or other sites?

Setting aside whether or not the person has the money to support the horse (and we would hope they do), the fact is....that horse was NOT on Craig's List for free or cheaper, that horse was at a broker's and the person wanted it. Fact is, kind, good people were willing to help the person buy the horse for reasons of their own. I simply don't see the problem with that. JMHO.

grayarabs

Aug. 7, 2009, 06:50 PM

Thanks for the update on the TB - the gray gelding. Was he ID'd by tattoo?
I got to thinking about horses that have tattoos and freeze brands. (papers?).
Is any effort made to ID the horses while on the lots to try to locate former owners/breeders? I understand that the broker is trying to make some money.
The horses are bought from him or shipped. I am brainstorming here. What if when folks sold horses ie like TB's with tattoos and Arabs with freezebrands - that there is a database where the breeders of those horses and former owners could be on a list to be contacted if the horse is not safe. Or a groom or someone that cared for/always liked the horse could be on the contact list that the broker/whomever could call. I guess if your name was on the list you would not be surprised if you get a call so that you have a few hundred dollars available to purchase the horse. The broker/whomever gets their money and the horse goes to one of its listed "guardian angels". For example, I can think of some horses that I would like to be a guardian angel for - like a TB I loved where I boarded in the past.
I would be willing to "sign" for him - that were he ever in trouble - call me - and I'll take him. Altogether too much to hope for I am sure - and am sure somehow this could backfire. But it could work!!!! Can you imagine if Ferdinand had had a guardian angel list?

chaltagor

Aug. 7, 2009, 06:55 PM

This statement caught my eye because, while it's true, it isn't really relevant. If a person falls in love with a horse at a broker's and there are generous people out there who see that love and see that a horse could be saved from the auction circuit/slaughter by their helping the person GET that horse, then why judge whether or not that person should get the horse but instead should go to Craig's List or other sites?

I would think that would be one of the worst reasons to get another horse. If this horse was in a regular ad, not in jeopardy, would the person "fall in love" and have to have it? If it was a regular purchase and not couched in such inflammatory terms? I think not.

danceronice

Aug. 7, 2009, 06:59 PM

Especially as, with this ASB that was just pulled, the horse is going to a "foster" home (at least until he totally wins/won over his fosterers.) He was not going to someone who wants a horsie but someone who offered to give him some space and time to heal and find a permanent home, rather than a one-way truck ride to a slaughter house. As one of those who chipped in a dribble for him, I'm good with donating to that cause. I can't buy a horse of my own right now (though when I can, I will be looking at AC4H and may be looking for some COTH power where trailering is concerned) but I can chip in a bit so a sweet-faced boy gets a second chance, and I get a few cheap warm fuzzies.

IOW, get a grip, people.

chaltagor

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:08 PM

IOW, get a grip, people.

You'd rather pay $800 or so for something you could get for free and you're telling other people to get a grip? Many of the horses C (broker) gets are given to him for free, then are "rescued" by well-meaning dupes for $600 to $800. How is that anything but a rip-off or unsavory?

ASB Stars

Aug. 7, 2009, 07:54 PM

You'd rather pay $800 or so for something you could get for free and you're telling other people to get a grip? Many of the horses C (broker) gets are given to him for free, then are "rescued" by well-meaning dupes for $600 to $800. How is that anything but a rip-off or unsavory?

In the grand scheme of things, those few hundred dollars is a paltry sum. It maybe more than someone has in their pocket, at one time, but it is the price of the life you see in front of you- the image of that horse. The Broker values that life at a higher price, to AC4H, perhaps, than what he will actually reap at a sale, but I honestly do not give a rats ass about that. Many hands make light work- and the group of us (or any wonderful like-minded group) can lift this horse to a safe harbour. Why is that such a lamentable thing?

You know, it is hard to sit quietly, reading comments that are basically veiled insults about those of us who just don't appear bright enough to see things the way those who do not wish to participate in these ventures, do. I am simply not here to judge any of you- why do you feel compelled to sit in judgement of the rest of us?

danceronice

Aug. 7, 2009, 08:02 PM

You'd rather pay $800 or so for something you could get for free and you're telling other people to get a grip? Many of the horses C (broker) gets are given to him for free, then are "rescued" by well-meaning dupes for $600 to $800. How is that anything but a rip-off or unsavory?

It's business on the broker's part. Most of those horses came through New Holland. I'm not going trolling through auctions (even if I lived near one), nor am I wandering Craigslist looking for a live animal, because who knows what I'm going to find? AC4H goes through broker lots, and I get at least a video and pictures. The broker makes more than he would per pound, I get a horse, the horse gets to not go to a slaughterhouse. Everyone's happy.

ETA: And yeah, as ASB Stars said, that's not a lot. In fact that's less than a month's rent and about FOUR of my projected mortgage payments for the new place.

JLMet

Aug. 7, 2009, 08:20 PM

I'll be posting an update on Rally soon. Just have to upload more photos. For what it's for, it really is a matter of opinion and where your comfort lies with donating money. If the people here hadn't donated towards pulling Rally, I never would have been able to pay for him. Because I didn't have to put out that 500.00 my husband was MUCH more willing to allow him to come here. This may be temporary forst or permanent if I can convince hubby. Right now i'm estimating he'll be here 3 months before he's able to get his health certificate so he can travel over states. 1 month will clear him from quarantine but he's horribly lame and that is going to take quite a while. While our finances are tight, we are very lucky. My husband works on Wednesdays and Saturdays at the Agway our very good friend owns. Instead of him getting paid we get to take whatever we want for free. This works out quite well for all of us. Because of this, I'm not incuring any extra expenses for feed. Hay will of course cost a bit more as well as the vet visits (next bill will be about 400) and lord only knows how many farrier visits. Again, awesome farrier, feels horrible for this horse, knows that while I have money it's still a little tight and offered to work out a deal where he'll provide services for either free or very little in exchange for a massage per visit. More than ok with this! When it was just my two who have great feet this wouldn't have been an issue, but Rally is certainly going to cost quite a bit to get his hooves in order. My sister is helping to pay for half of everything because she also would like to see us either get him 100% again or even be able to keep him should hubby become smitten (I don't think this will be a problem) Bottom line is, for me the 500.00 fee was really the least of our worries, but there's no way my husband would have said yes to this otherwise. Not sure how much sense that makes. It makes sense to me lol, but I have a few screws loose so I could have made it more confusing. For Rally's updates, I'll be starting a new thread so that it's easier to keep track.

Miss Aria

Aug. 7, 2009, 08:23 PM

I would think that would be one of the worst reasons to get another horse. If this horse was in a regular ad, not in jeopardy, would the person "fall in love" and have to have it? If it was a regular purchase and not couched in such inflammatory terms? I think not.

And how do you know? You can't possibly know the mind of another person like that. Could be the person would see the horse and realize it was just what she'd been looking for, no matter WHERE it's being 'advertised'.

ASB Stars

Aug. 7, 2009, 08:30 PM

JLMet...you are a blessing.

This is how many of us see helping a horse. JLMet has done a phenominal job- in a short period of time- in setting up a team to help this horse, and in moving forward with it. But there is more- she has invested herself in making this horse as whole as he can possibly be. That is a gift that will benefit Rally, certainly, but more than that, it is something that is a gift to all of us, who are able to vicariously be a part of this horses journey.

I simply do not comprehend those of you who don't fathom this, and respect it. I still believe deeply that you cannot take someone's lessons from them- in essence, you can choose to be a part of something transformational.

Or not. But, you always get a choice.

chaltagor

Aug. 7, 2009, 09:08 PM

I don't have a problem with a horse saved from the slaughterhouse. I don't have a problem with people sending money to help a horse that they will never meet. I think it's wonderful to see.

I have a problem with using terms like "ransom" and "saved" etc. It's a purchase. Why do you have a problem with the facts?

Call it what it is. But then how many horses would be bought? Why do those little words hold such meaning? Why pussyfoot around the truth?

If you think $800 isn't a lot of money then I'll send you my paypal account address and you can put your money where your fingers are. Anyone up to it?

chaltagor

Aug. 7, 2009, 09:11 PM

I simply do not comprehend those of you who don't fathom this, and respect it. I still believe deeply that you cannot take someone's lessons from them- in essence, you can choose to be a part of something transformational.

Or not. But, you always get a choice.

Buying a horse from the broker is transformational? I can't wait to tell him. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

danceronice

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:38 PM

I wouldn't consider buying a horse from a broker for myself "transformational." But it is pretty darn impressive to see people, many of whom will never meet each other, decide to pull together to make a difference for one horse. Why is it such a big deal for people to call it "bail" or "ransom"? Functionally, someone somewhere made a purchase, and in this case it's more like a "reprieve" as the horse's ultimate destination otherwise was the processor. Is the average horse on Craigslist immediately bound for slaughter? No generally, no. So is that the same as buying a horse who is on the next full truck if you don't buy him? No. I don't begrudge the brokers their living--if no one wants the horse, they need to make some money off it. If they can make MORE money off it by selling it to people who want to feel like they're 'ransoming' it, that's fine too. If I were selling a horse and could make more money off someone who though they were doing the horse a favor I'd take their money, too.

And yes, Rally needs his own thread, especially as I'm sure this is going to be a long process and we all want updates!

ASB Spotz

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:51 PM

EqTrainer

Aug. 7, 2009, 10:58 PM

I just keep thinking that if we could just harness all the recent venom into *action* then maybe we could save more horses :lol:

AnnaCrew

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:25 AM

I was reading this thread with happy smile and then the real venom appeared. I really can not understand some posters here. There is a horse who most likely will go to slaughter, and there is somebody, who has space for him. OK, yes, it basically means buying a horse for that somebody. But if you think seriously about how "cheap" all these cheap horses are... The initial ransom is nothing.

I do not know the going "meat" price in US, but here slaughter is paying +- 400$ per horse. And any dealer asks at least that money.

I, for example, still do have space (both, boxes and pastures), but my purse is not bottomless too. And it is hard to pay the ransom if you know that for that amount I would be able to pay for many other things that horses will need.

So far only vet bills of my horses has seriously exceeded the ransoms paid for them.

Last few years COTH had saved some horses by pulling together the ransom. What's wrong with that? To avoid scams, you donate dribble into registered rescue so you know exactly where the money go. If you by some reasons do not like doing it, don't, but spreading venom around on legal discussions...

Please, before you show off, remember - the other end of this thread is a horse who needs help. The horse can not speak for himself, can not discuss legal issues, only thing that he knows - he wants HOME. And - simply - be alive.

nightsong

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:34 AM

Actually, AnnaCrew, if you read the rules of this BB, you'll see what the problem is.

ASB Stars

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:08 AM

Buying a horse from the broker is transformational? I can't wait to tell him. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I see you are deliberately missing the point, and I find that sad. I said that you could be part of something transformational. It is a process- from finding the horse, to raising the bail- to finding the foster, or permanent home...to the whole process after the horse is in that home...

And, if you dislike my connotation of "bail", or "ransom", that's fine. It changes nothing for me. It speaks volumes about you.

ASB Stars

Aug. 8, 2009, 08:32 AM

Actually, AnnaCrew, if you read the rules of this BB, you'll see what the problem is.

You know, this is relatively simple. We just need to have the person approved as an adopter before we raise the money, and we are completely within the parameters of the rules.

We may believe that our COTHers are great folks, but when we actually have them approved- we are simply verifying what we already know. :winkgrin:

Moderator 1

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:05 AM

You know, this is relatively simple. We just need to have the person approved as an adopter before we raise the money, and we are completely within the parameters of the rules.

This is correct. There appear to be two issues at play here: the "legality" of making these requests, per COTH rules, and individuals' opinions re: whether working with these brokers--and donating towards the purchase of an animal from them--is an appropriate way to operate a charitable organization.

Per board rules, if a 501c3 has determined that donations for a given cause fulfill their goals and are tax-deductible, it's generally OK for a fundraising request here, though we may limit them if a given group or cause is abusing the priviledge.

It's up to each person to determine for herself if she feels that that cause is something that she wants to support. In terms of the rules, we have to draw the line somewhere, and generally 501c3 is it. We're not about to make determinations for the entire community re: what is a "worthy" cause and what isn't. That's up to you and your Paypal account. ;)

From what we understand, contributions to an individual horse's fund for AC4H are tax-deductible if the adoptive home has gone through their official approval process.

Hopefully, that clears things up a bit. We may take a look at this thread and see if we can spin-off the debate portion so that all of Rally's info can stay together for those following his story.

Thanks!
Mod 1

Angela Freda

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:14 AM

It's business on the broker's part. Most of those horses came through New Holland. I'm not going trolling through auctions (even if I lived near one), nor am I wandering Craigslist looking for a live animal, because who knows what I'm going to find? And you know so much more about the horse from that short vid and photos? Look at Rally- much less sound now that he is 'home' and I'm sure that's going to be blamed on the shipper?
AC4H goes through broker lots, and I get at least a video and pictures. The broker makes more than he would per pound, I get a horse, the horse gets to not go to a slaughterhouse. Everyone's happy. I would think the 2 horses broker turns around and buys with your $800 aren't too happy. *shrug*

ETA: And yeah, as ASB Stars said, that's not a lot. In fact that's less than a month's rent and about FOUR of my projected mortgage payments for the new place. It's pittance compared to what horses costs to keep, esp ones with unknown histories and health issues- if you don't have $800 to buy it where are the thousands going to come from to fix it?

Angela Freda

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:17 AM

I just keep thinking that if we could just harness all the recent venom into *action* then maybe we could save more horses :lol:

People who prefer other ways to rescue or who don't see this as rescue, and even those who might be completely outspoken save horses too. Sometimes for way less money, meaning they can afford to rehab and keep the horse while they evaluate what situation would be best for that horse for that same $800.

ASB Stars

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:58 AM

People who prefer other ways to rescue or who don't see this as rescue, and even those who might be completely outspoken save horses too. Sometimes for way less money, meaning they can afford to rehab and keep the horse while they evaluate what situation would be best for that horse for that same $800.

And this is simply another approach. You are not being asked to like it- you aren't being begged to participate. This is a way that some of us use to help what horses we can. You are not going to be questioned, at least by me, about your good works- I know that you do what you can. So do we.

chaltagor

Aug. 8, 2009, 01:25 PM

what the h*ll is chaltagor's problem? :confused: holy cow.

looking forward to the new rally update thread!! this one's gone to pot. yes bless you JLMet for taking in this sweet soul. there are lots of us who "understand" what you're doing. :yes:

What venom? If you knew what I know you'd be thinking differently about the whole "rescuing from the broker" thing. Trust me.

Do you think because I'm not jumping for joy that I don't "understand" what these threads are about? I'd like ac4h to openly discussed here and horses adopted, but that's NOT what's going on in these threads. There is no adoption, it is a purchase from a broker plain and simple. If this broker came here and advertised his horses he'd be shut down so fast his head'd spin, but not after many angry posts from, well, probably the same people singing Kumbaya in these threads.

EqTrainer

Aug. 8, 2009, 01:35 PM

What hasn't been discussed?

It's been made perfectly clear. AC4h facilitates the purchase of a horse from a broker. The initial concern about was it thru the NPO was dealt with - they are not, so no laws are being broken. Because it's NOT thru the NPO, you can't ask for donations to make that purchase thru COTH.

I think the post from the mods made that pretty clear, no?

EqTrainer

Aug. 8, 2009, 01:47 PM

I've been thinking about this while toodling around the farm today..

Who can "afford" to have a horse and who cannot?

Everyone has a different definition of this.

For example, I have an acquaintance who I know, for a fact, is a millionaire many times over. He is single and has no responsibility other than himself. He lives off the income his money produces. Most people would consider this to be a pretty well-to-do person.. but he routinely claims he is "broke" and "poor" because of the recent economy. I am quite sure, in his mind, he cannot afford another horse, because he tells me this all the time...

I have another acquaintance who is a single mom, who makes a good living. She has a decent retirement fund and has a small farm. She is actively looking for another horse but has limited herself to a free or very inexpensive horse because, as she says, she would rather not have a large cash outlay up front because cash flow is an issue but she has the resources to pay for any type of emergency and knows she can budget in maintenance/normal and expected care expenses.

I have another friend who is very average middle class, two kids, husband, works part time. She *always* gets her horses thru rescue. Because she combines her money w/her husband, she prefers to not ever pay upfront for a horse because this is the expense he tends to take exception to - however, once her horses are hers, there is NOTHING he wouldn't do for them (he has proven this over and over again). In order to keep the peace, she would prefer a situation like the most recent AC4H horses, although she could write a check 10x that size without it causing a financial issue for her... it's a husband issue ;)

So really.. who can *afford* a horse? Horses are luxuries, they are toys. Different people are willing to spend different amounts of money on their toys and are willing to do so in very different ways. Who is to say who has "enough money" to care for a horse? I have a client that I trim for, who does a lot of rescue, who keeps a running tab with her vet. It works for them. I don't know exactly what her financial situation is but I think she eats a lot of ramen noodles. Her horses are VERY well cared for.

I used to lease a horse, many many years ago, from a man who was a very well known small animal vet. It was his polo pony in the winter. He was very wealthy and took piss poor care of that horse, the time she spent with me were her best times, no doubt. He was, by anyone's standards, rich.

I personally know that I can easily afford to have three of my own. Four is a stretch but I have done it - usually the fourth is a rescue horse, that will eventually be sold or placed or euthanized if that is what is necessary. It's not fun to not have any luxuries to have that fourth horse but it's worth it to me. Because I'd have to pay vet bills on a credit card for that fourth horse, should I not take it?

Lots of food for thought on this subject!

hitchinmygetalong

Aug. 8, 2009, 02:03 PM

What venom? If you knew what I know you'd be thinking differently about the whole "rescuing from the broker" thing. Trust me.

Do you think because I'm not jumping for joy that I don't "understand" what these threads are about? I'd like ac4h to openly discussed here and horses adopted, but that's NOT what's going on in these threads. There is no adoption, it is a purchase from a broker plain and simple. If this broker came here and advertised his horses he'd be shut down so fast his head'd spin, but not after many angry posts from, well, probably the same people singing Kumbaya in these threads.

(bolding mine)

Read this through slowly, folks, and pay attention to what she is saying.

Think about it. What a sweet deal for the dealer, eh? Free advertising through a RESCUE. Brilliant.

FlashGordon

Aug. 8, 2009, 02:16 PM

I kind of get part of what chaltagor is saying. I'm thinking some of the issue is the rhetoric-- the terms "rescue" and "save" and such-- because there are a handful out there in the horse world who use those adjectives to inflate their own sense of well being and grandeur, and to scam other unsuspecting folks.

But I think most have a true compassion for the animals, the desire to do something to make a difference (even just for one horse) and the means to do so. Rehabbing horses is dirty work. I can't see anyone taking it on just so they can get a big shiny Gold Star and a pat on the back. I know for a fact that a few of the posters on this thread do it time and again and don't expect, ask, or seek any kind of approval or recognition.

And at the end of the day, probably 90% of people on this board have at some time or another taken on a needy horse. I'd bet 100% have taken on some needy animal at some point or another. You do what you can, with what you have, at any given time.

It is funny how words like OTTB, rescue, and import can be serious hot buttons. People like to use them inappropriately, as an excuse, or as a way to garner sympathy/attention/praise/etc.

AC4H is the topic of discussion at the moment because it seems there is not a ton of transparency and perhaps a lot of misunderstanding-- on the part of the general public-- as to how the operation works. The buzz words can be confusing to people.

Chaltagor, ASB Stars & EqT I suspect you are all much closer than you think, because if I remember correctly, all three of you have done your fair share of rescuing/rehabbing/supporting horses in need.

Ok I am done playing peacemaker.

Off to visit my lame, crabby, old "rescue" horse. ;)

MMorgan

Aug. 8, 2009, 02:17 PM

There is a difference for some of us who understand that the next stop for the horses, at least from this particular broker, is slaughter. It's worlds different from my trying out AA hunters from various trainers.

We are adults here. We have the right to do with our money as we see fit--at least for now. And despite what a few of you seem to be implying, we are not necessarily "dupes", or poorly educated, or lacking in intelligence. (So I don't see the need to read slowly, thank you very much.) And I haven't heard anyone sing the Kumbaya song since Catholic grade school.

danceronice

Aug. 8, 2009, 02:41 PM

So, those who are opposed to how AC4H operates, you do understand that those horses would still be at the broker's whether AC4H listed them or not, right? And that the broker's not going out of business even if she does. So those horses would still get bought by the broker. The broker still needs to make money off them. He'll make less by shipping them for the per-pound price, but he'll still have to do it because he does not buy and sell horses .

AC4H lists the horses, the ones that people are interested in or touched by or what have you get purchased instead of shipped for slaughter, the broker makes a bigger profit margin, everyone's happy, except the people who hate that the broker exists at all. I am not one of those who gets her panties in a twist over the fact that there are people who view horses as livestock and not Sweetie Pookiekins the pampered pet. (I also have no problem dealing with the Amish. I'm sure that horrifies some people.) If the broker pulled one from the auction, and I see on AC4H I can get him for a few hundred bucks more than the hammer price he paid, I win, the horse wins, the broker wins. If he goes out and buys two more with that money, either they sell to someone like me or they ship. If they went to the kill buyer at the auction, they obviously aren't wanted by anyone who has seen them in person or on a Craigslist ad. AC4H gives them some exposure.

I honestly don't see how AC4H does anything horrible. The broker exists because he fills an economic niche. It's not going to go away, and he'll be there whether AC4H gives him a more profitable outlet for the horses he buys or not. AC4H, without making a profit themselves, provides a service that helps the buyers, the horses, and the brokers. I realize there are people who like to pretend that horses aren't ultimately part of the agricultural industry and that it's a hobby for everyone, not a business and no one ever has to make money. Those people can give money to other charities. No one's holding a gun to their head saying they should.

Yep, it's a sale. It's also a rescue. AC4H is not getting anything out of it besides the knowledge that a horse who absolutely would have shipped did not. They don't save every horse, but no one ever will. I'm not seeing why some folks decided to dogpile AC4H and anyone willing to donate to pull one horse.

EqTrainer

Aug. 8, 2009, 02:52 PM

There is no adoption, it is a purchase from a broker plain and simple

That is correct, and I don't need to read slowly to understand it. I also don't think anyone else has to. The assumption that everyone who sends money is stupid and "doesn't get it" is really condescending and rude. We do get it. We know exactly what is going on and we are all good with it. That's why we send our money.

We have a different set of values than you do. It's really that simple. It's not right or wrong, it's different. What I don't understand is why YOU don't understand that. Everyone here who participates in this sort of thing is good with it all.. the people who are appalled by it are all up in arms and it didn't cost them a cent. Why do you care how we spend our money? Why do you care that we don't care what your values are? You can keep saying it over and over again, in bold print, in italics, it doesn't matter because that is not relevant to us. It is only relevant to you, and that's why you don't participate. That's great!

I know you all hate it when we talk about the intangible but I get a lot out of being able to participate in the PURCHASE of ANY horse that will then be in a better situation - even if it's only to go get euthanized in a safe, comfortable place. Who are you to judge the validity of what I receive from giving?

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 02:58 PM

I'm trying to sort this out. Broker has a horse available for $800.00 Chick likes horse thinks she can help it with its problems, maybe save it from having the broker dump it, can't afford it and wants ac4h to buy it so she can adopt it through ac4h? AC4H fee is $800.00? AC4H needs their $800.00 back reimbursement for getting the horse for her, but Chick can't afford to pay it. But if we pay AC4H for getting the horse, as a tax free donation, then AC4H will give her the horse? Because Chick can't accept donations herself (not a 501c whatever) she involves the AC4H folks, who can. That way she can get COTHers to buy her horse for her? Sweet. I'm in. And some of you thought these folks were weasles.

chaltagor

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:05 PM

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:08 PM

Don't you mean "viola"? Oh, never mind that.

Oh, Mighty COTHERs, I'm an approved adopter for Banner, and I found this fantastic ex race horse I really reallly really want but he's not a Banner owned horse, he's owned by one of the trainers, selling him for $1000.00 (see, that's only $200.00 more than the above referenced horse, that's NOTHING for you COTHERs!!) and Banner can't afford to buy him , but they said If I can get all the COTHERs to put upt the money, they'll buy him from the trainer and I can get him then, because I'm an approved adopter, Whoot! Come on, folks, the trainer said he's going to the canning company Thursday, can't you people please, please please, oh Puhleeeese pay for this horse for me? Its tax deductable!! Its only $1000.00 !!! If only 50 of you give only $20.00 I can have my horse, oh, please, the trainer said he's going to sell him to the meat man!! I can see his great big deer eyes in my sleep!! I can't bear to see him go to slaughter!! Everytime I close my eyes he comes and whispers in my ears "buy me...buy me..." Don't any of you have any heart? I want him so much,
Banner says they'll buy him for me if I give them the money, but I don't have it, so won't you people puhleeese give them the money? For a horse's life? For meeeee? Pay his ransom? Save him from certain slaughter?What kind of people are you, anyway?

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:16 PM

chaltagor

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:21 PM

So, those who are opposed to how AC4H operates, you do understand that those horses would still be at the broker's whether AC4H listed them or not, right?

I think it's a great idea that they had, work with the brokers to give the horses a wider audience. I've known one of the brokers before he got started with ac4h, he's a nice guy and he's glad the horses are getting homes, and he's glad more of his stock is getting sold without having to advertise on the net himself. But what is happening with how the horses get "ransomed," how they get into ac4h from the broker pages (or without even being advertised there) and their high(er) prices is making me question the whole system.

He'll make less by shipping them for the per-pound price, but he'll still have to do it because he does not buy and sell horses.

No, the brokers buy and sell horses. That's what they do. You call up the broker, tell him what you want and he'll bring it to you. That's how it works. I could call him and ask for a black Percheron mare broke to harness and ride with a blaze and four socks and it'd be in my barn within a week.

MMorgan

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:25 PM

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:25 PM

Please please please don't let this contretemps affect anyone's view of AC4H.

AC4H is a very legitimate, 501(c)3 equine rescue operating out of PA and NY. They have helped numerous horses over the years.

One of the other ways - in addition to everything else! - is by listing broker owned horses. These are horses that may not otherwise come to someone's attention, and if they can be adopted by someone, that will mean everything in the world to that horse.

No rescue can take them all in, especially in the current economic climate. It is all about getting the word out to potentially interested parties.

CANTER does the same thing - and by doing so, has helped an incredible number of horses coming off the track that would otherwise have gone to a very bad end. How many people on this board have something about their "CANTER Cutie" as part of their signature line?

Please. AC4H did NOTHING wrong here. I hope that this issue does not affect how anyone perceives them.

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:41 PM

Its not that, its asking people on this board to subsidize someone else's adoption in this weasley, pluck at their heartstrings, guilt them, tell them its going to go to slaughter, give them a deadline, shame them for questioning, thread(s). Don't you get that? The only thing that qualifies this to stay up on this board is the 501c which inserted its self into this deal so that more people might be willing to fork over some adopter's cash for her. As far as I am concerned, the 501c is brokering the horse for the broker, because they have better resources for advertising and for scaring up the cash and donations. You may see it as a way to funnel money into low-end horse purchasing, I see this particular OP's way to get other people to pay for a low end horse purchase for a friend or aquaintance who doesn't have the money to buy the horse. I don't see the "resuce" part of this. But hey, that's me. If you feel better being part of this kind of outfit, go for it. If this kind of stuff doesn't bother you, you'll sleep sound, I'm sure. Just remind me not to go into any horse deals with you, or any of the folks supporting this kind of horse dealing. If you have no problem with shady deals, I'm sure you have no problem with shady dealing. I mean, all you'll have to do is mention slaughter, and I'm supposed to blanch and cough up the dough, so throw it out there, there's horses to be sold on that word!!:mad:

2WBs1TB

Aug. 8, 2009, 03:50 PM

I do not understand why this BLATANT advertising of a horse FOR SALE is being allowed? This isn't a genuine rescue situation; it's a PURCHASE from a broker.

If AC4H wants to save this horse, let then "acquire" it FIRST then advertise it as a rescue. But as long as it is in the hands of a BROKER whose job is to SELL horses, it is advertising... and not a rescue.

How is this any different than any other heart string-jerking ad: "Please BUY my horse. If no one buys it I'm going to have to SELL it to the killers or send it to the KILLER auction"?

Pronzini

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:04 PM

CANTER does the same thing - and by doing so, has helped an incredible number of horses coming off the track that would otherwise have gone to a very bad end.

IMO Canter does NOT do the same thing! Canter is a facilitator for a number of independent trainers who are selling generally greenbroke horses at market rates. I have yet to see Canter imply that a truck is coming, that a horse will be slaughtered, or use loaded words like "ransom" or "bail". Canter AFAIK does not collect monies from people who are paying "ransom" to turn around and give a horse gratis to someone else. Canter does not use the rescue word which in turn has the potential for manipulation and emotional blackmail. At most, they say that a horse is "at risk" and it is a tiny percentage of the listings.

chaltagor

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:05 PM

Chaltagor, I certainly don't have a problem with you questioning the system. Systems should be scrutinized, IMO. That said, you don't really seem to be questioning things so much as having already made up your mind and debating your position with others who think differently.

It's not that I've already made up my mind, it's that, well, I can't say dammit. The system that they've created, lets just say I can't stand watching people be fleeced, or having things hidden. It's almost like they partially exist to buy horses from the broker, which is not what a horse rescue is usually about. There are horses on their quarantine page and available horses page that were bought straight from the brokers and went to their barn. Usually horse rescues don't have to buy their charges (needy horses) and not for the price the brokers ask.

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:08 PM

That's exactly what bothers me, you said it well. To me there is a difference between this advertising and a genuine adoption from a rescue. Its an ethics concern. I consider this unethical, and that's why my money wouldn't go to it. Its just an unethical way to handle a charity business - they are advertising a currently broker-owned horse. They will buy the horse from the broker, only if people give them the money to do it. So far, that's all that's happening, and the advertising on this board is for a broker owned horse.

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:14 PM

IMO Canter does NOT do the same thing! Canter is a facilitator for a number of independent trainers who are selling generally greenbroke horses at market rates. I have yet to see Canter imply that a truck is coming, that a horse will be slaughtered, or use loaded words like "ransom" or "bail". Canter AFAIK does not collect monies from people who are paying "ransom" to turn around and give a horse gratis to someone else. Canter does not use the rescue word which in turn has the potential for manipulation and emotional blackmail. At most, they say that a horse is "at risk" and it is a tiny percentage of the listings.

I'm sorry, I should not have used "chantah" to intimate that this is what Canter does. I will make up a different name for an unknown 'rescue'. I wanted to make an analogy people might relate to - in my pretend "plea" I wanted to simplify what I see happening here, but I will change my pretend 'plea' to read differently. I realize you were addressing the other poster's corelation of this thread and situation with Canter, which doesn't apply. I just thought I would say I should change my example to get away from Canter.

I also question how 'at risk' the horses are from this broker. Why does anyone think the horses are going to be going to slaughter? Has the broker said they would be? Or did the rescue say that. Or did the OP just say that. See, that doesn't make good business sense to me. Do we actually know that the horse is going to slaughter?

goeslikestink

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:18 PM

ha===== muppets -- its a dealer come broker
wake up people----- its not understand an adoption agency or rescue
its someone asking you for handouts so that they can benifit from your dosh
go ahead
buy a horse thats invisible ==== money well spend on zero
an adoption agency of any sort has a regidtered no in any country be it a charity or an animal accosiation /soceity or rescue which it must declare for tax reasons etc
any muppet offering themsleves up as broker is making a profit out of what ever is up for sale
comes under business act
sale of goods act
and trade describtion act

a horse comes under a saleable commodity - as a saleable item

hence wgy they often come with warranties and or 31 days to ask for a refund exchange or
money back in the commercial world

as a broker or dealer is a commecial bissness so therefore has to declare themselves to the tax man

the person mentioned he/.she is

Oh, Mighty COTHERs, I'm an approved adopter for Chantah,

wheres you no ooh miss broker dealer

and I found this fantastic ex race horse I really reallly really want but he's not a CHANTAH owned horse, he's owned by one of the trainers, selling him for $1000.00 (see, that's only $200.00 more than the above referenced horse, that's NOTHING for you COTHERs!!) and Chantah can't afford to buy him , but they said If I can get all the COTHERs to put upt the money, they'll buy him from the trainer and I can get him then, because I'm an approved adopter, Whoot! Come on, folks, the trainer said he's going to the canning company Thursday, can't you people please, please please, oh Puhleeeese pay for this horse for me? Its tax deductable!! Its only $1000.00 !!! If only 50 of you give only $20.00 I can have my horse, oh, please, the trainer said he's going to sell him to the meat man!! I can see his great big deer eyes in my sleep!! I can't bear to see him go to slaughter!! Everytime I close my eyes he comes and whispers in my ears "buy me...buy me..." Don't any of you have any heart? I want him so much, Chantah says they'll buy him if I give them the money, but I don't have it, so won't you people puhleeese give them the money? For a horse's life? For meeeee? Pay his ransom? Save him from certain slaughter?What kind of people are you, anyway?

- tax deductable ----- as if pay her and she be richer than you will every time
as it will line her pocket and not go on the horse or the rescue if there is one

invisible ==== easy money -- go ahead people be muppets if you gie her th dosh
that like shoving it down the loo, or
you standing on a corner and giving a fiver to who ever passes you by
thats being a muppet

equineartworks

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:23 PM

There were too many flags for me right off the bat:

1. The OP came right out and said she heard from a friend that COTH was extremely generous and just helped two horses get adopted. So she pops on here after shopping for a pretty one and asks everyone to buy the horse for her.

2. We know nothing about this person other than that they used some pretty serious emotional blackmail and did a fine job of insulting anyone who asked legitimate questions such as who she, her horse experience, to see photos of her "other rescues" etc.

3. She did all this before even contacting AC4H.

4. She started, I think, three threads all basically telling everyone to look past the "emotional drama" and start sending more cash.

5. She made AC4H look REALLY bad in the process.

I have nothing against sending the dribble, and if one of our well known posters had said "hey, I can take this horse if we can get him a ride" I would have happily dribbled. But to come on and say I can take the horse if you all pony up $800 for him is just, well, that takes a big pair. Especially when you just joined the community and no one knows who the heck you are.

Seriously, I can afford to get the new Chevy 2500 instead of the 1500 if you all will pitch in and send the $6500 to the dealer for me :D Dumplin' would look MUCH better being towed by the 2500 don't you think? I have the money to fix it if it breaks...I just don't have the money to buy it. :lol:

MMorgan

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:25 PM

"You can't say dammit". Fair enough Chaltagor, life's like that, I have my share of times when I have to exercise restraint. In situations such as this, on a national bulletin board where I have the freedom of speech (which carries with it the ability to influence others) I try to be especially careful. I've talked to Christy many times on the phone and also made it a point to meet her in person when I was back home at Christmas. I asked her many direct questions and I went away feeling secure that her motives are about the horses. She scored very well on her MMPI (kidding)

I'm also good friends with 2 women who assist tb's, including some horses who have wound up at NH or in the broker's lot and I trust and belive in them also. Others may have more stringent or different requirements but for me, I trust that ac4h is not "lining their pockets". Would you be amenable to discussing your ideas and asking questions with someone who is closer to the rescue? It's what I did and it helped put my mind at ease.

goeslikestink

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:28 PM

gaining money by deception is fraud and crimminal offence

MMorgan

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:32 PM

Equineartworks, maybe you need to check into "Cash for Clunkers". We're all contributing to that...:D

FlashGordon

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:41 PM

There is a fair amount of skepticism because of so many rescue-orgs-gone-awry. Understandable.

Someone explain--

People donate $ and tag it for a specific broker-owned horse.

AC4H then uses those funds to purchase said horse.

Horse gets shipped to whatever private party steps up and is able to take horse.

Is that person required to be an approved adopter per AC4H? If not, maybe that needs to be a requirement. AC4H has to match the purchased horse with a home that is already ready and waiting for a rescue.

So where it is getting muddy is when private folks come on soliciting funds because they want a specific horse. Like the recent gray TB incident. And no offense to that poster, whom I believe was new to the forum, but I think that was the root of this discussion?

Just trying to get clarification, feeling a little foggy this week...

JSwan

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:55 PM

(bolding mine)

Read this through slowly, folks, and pay attention to what she is saying.

Think about it. What a sweet deal for the dealer, eh? Free advertising through a RESCUE. Brilliant.

Yup. Hell - I'm pretty impressed. Not every businessman has a guaranteed outlet for his product. Take advantage of some women suffering from empty nest syndrome, mention that long trip to Canada once or twice.. and wham. The money starts rolling in. Huge markup, quick turnaround, no marketing costs, little overhead......

And for all you folks doing the "rescuing" if you're not screening your adopters finances you're WRONG. Small animal rescues do it and if you're not - with such an expensive animal - you have no business being a nonprofit. And seeing how one of your "fosters/adopters" was acting on this BB I hope she's not representative of the type of people you hand over horses to.

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 04:56 PM

So where it is getting muddy is when private folks come on soliciting funds because they want a specific horse. Like the recent gray TB incident. And no offense to that poster, whom I believe was new to the forum, but I think that was the root of this discussion?

Just trying to get clarification, feeling a little foggy this week...I think people do just that on other boards and she thought she could come on here and get the cash as its a bigger cash cow. Its a board of thinking people though, emotional blackmail doesn't go over big here. Couching the deal as a rescue doesn't change the fact, though, that as far as I could tell, the original 'adopter' was not even yet approved and was not yet really adopting a horse through the tax free agency, and was trying to put together a deal for herself whereby COTHERs would pony up and get the agency to get the horse for her. Would she ever e approved? I am not sure how this deal was supposed to work. You can color it any way you want, with tactics like emotional blackmail (big time, on this thread) but it still is an adopter using the AC4H as a tax-free middle man to get a horse she wanted from a broker. I just hope AC4H isn't going to do it.

I too think an adopter should be approved, and get a horse in the hands of the charity. Period. If the charity is transparent about how they get horses, and I approve, I'll donate. So far, none, not one, of those criteria are met.

AnotherRound

Aug. 8, 2009, 05:00 PM

And for all you folks doing the "rescuing" if you're not screening your adopters finances you're WRONG. Small animal rescues do it and if you're not - with such an expensive animal - you have no business being a nonprofit. And seeing how one of your "fosters/adopters" was acting on this BB I hope she's not representative of the type of people you hand over horses to.

Well this was a question I had. If she's an approved adopter, didn't they approve her finances, that she had the money to do the deal? And maintain the horse? If not, shame on AC4H. If they did, then the adopter is lying, and she does have the money to get the horse, and what is she asking for other people to pay for it for? Big red light here.

cloudyandcallie

Aug. 8, 2009, 05:02 PM

AC4H and the wonderful women who volunteer there are not in this to facilitate the brokers, they are in it to save the horses.
I don't think paying a broker a few hundred dollars, and remember the $800 is "negotiable," is going to make a broker rich. It IS going to make a broker offer good horses cheap to rescuers who go into kill pens to try to save some lives.
And I'd be interested in whether or not the naysayers donate to any rescues any where to help any horses.
When I give $ I give it without strings. If i find out that a rescue is not legit or that it is questionable, I quit giving to it. (and there are some on coth I have quit giving to because of unexplained and mysterious deaths of 6 or 7 horses and another rescue that had horses left out in storms and sun (make that horse in storms and sun as that "rescue" only had one or two rescues.)

JSwan

Aug. 8, 2009, 05:12 PM

My giving history is really no one's business but my own, c&c.

But when organizations solicit funds on this BB, I do pay attention and evaluate them. And I'm well qualified to do so - because I know how nonprofits are SUPPOSED to be working. When it comes to "rescues", few of them know what the hell they're doing and some are run by lunatics or frauds.

I'll bend over backwards to help an animal in need. But what I won't do is turn over my money to an organization that is poorly run, uses emotional manipulation or lies to garner or guilt people into donations, or engages in any practice I find... questionable.

There ARE rescues out there that are merely fronts for horse dealing operations. The IRS and state AG's turn a blind eye. What exactly do you expect a donor to do? Just blindly write a check because if we don't someone will think we don't love horses enough? Ridiculous.

equineartworks

Aug. 8, 2009, 05:26 PM

Equineartworks, maybe you need to check into "Cash for Clunkers". We're all contributing to that...:D

OOO!!! Then you only to send what? $2000 to the dealer right!?!?!?! That's even easier! :D

Miss Aria

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:06 PM

Miss Aria

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:19 PM

As far as I am concerned, the 501c is brokering the horse for the broker, because they have better resources for advertising and for scaring up the cash and donations. You may see it as a way to funnel money into low-end horse purchasing, I see this particular OP's way to get other people to pay for a low end horse purchase for a friend or aquaintance who doesn't have the money to buy the horse. I don't see the "resuce" part of this. But hey, that's me. If you feel better being part of this kind of outfit, go for it. If this kind of stuff doesn't bother you, you'll sleep sound, I'm sure. Just remind me not to go into any horse deals with you, or any of the folks supporting this kind of horse dealing. If you have no problem with shady deals, I'm sure you have no problem with shady dealing. I mean, all you'll have to do is mention slaughter, and I'm supposed to blanch and cough up the dough, so throw it out there, there's horses to be sold on that word!!:mad:

So by saying this, you're saying AC4H isn't legit? And what, pray tell, do you see them getting out of helping the broker horses? They sure don't make any money off it, so why do they do it? Oh yeah, right, they want to HELP THE HORSES and give them one last chance before they are tossed back into the auction circuit or head to their final ride to slaughter. Oh, sorry, there I go threatening doom and gloom for broker horses but you know what? Their future IS gloomy.

You say tomato, I say tomatoe. Maybe you see something wrong in a rescue trying to help horses, ANY horses; I don't. The broker program is just one aspect of AC4H, maybe you need to read everything on their website to see what it's all about, all the success stories (broker horses included), all the rehab they do, all the people they have helped find their lost horses, all the campaigning against slaughter they do.

If you don't care for the broker program, fine. You're more than entitled to your opinion. Some of us don't mind spending money to save a horse, period. That's our opinion. But don't try to tear down a good rescue because you don't happen to agree with everything they're doing.

ASB Stars

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:21 PM

A horse's life saved and someone getting to enjoy that life. Brilliant.

Word.

grayarabs

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:23 PM

Thank you Miss Aria.

equineartworks

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:32 PM

JSwan

Aug. 8, 2009, 06:58 PM

A horse's life saved and someone getting to enjoy that life. Brilliant.

If you think so, please send me a check for 10,000.00$, please.

Marli

Aug. 8, 2009, 08:08 PM

Yes AR. And instead of ac4h taking the horse from its previous owner, it has to first go to the broker, who gets it for free a lot of times and then puts an $800 price tag on it. Then concerned horselovers can pony up the dough which goes to the broker via ac4h (or directly). So Cothers are giving money to a rescue so it can purchase horses for an inflated fee, and in one case so the horse is given to someone who can't afford to buy one. Voila!

Chaltagor- I've private messaged you as I'd like to speak with you. I KNOW what this is about and you can't possibly know the whole story. You've been hinting that what you know is disturbing in some way- I can fill in some crucial details.

EqTrainer

Aug. 8, 2009, 08:13 PM

This is really getting bizarre. No matter how much anyone states the actual facts over and over again, the same accusations keep coming up. It's like a feeding frenzy.

So, for the last time..

the donations made to BUY broker horses do not go thru AC4H, the rescue with 501c status. So nothing illegal is being done here. Should I repeat that about 100 times in large print, along with the words "read slowly" to help you all out? Just let me know and I'll be happy to do that...

Christy gathers the money and pays the broker but this is done separately from the rescue. It's no different than if I did it. Therefore there is no "approving the home" because the rules of the rescue don't apply (read above paragraph again, slowly, for comprehension)

I really think that those of you who are so sure that AC4H is ripping people off, should get down to business and prove it. It is quite a claim, to say some of things that have been asserted here with no proof.

My absolute favorite was "how do we know that the broker horses really might be going to slaughter". :confused: Really now. Come on. Do you really think that this *entire* subject is just some sort of bogus game made up to have fun with and raise a little money to stash in someone's pocket and those horses are going to be tucked into their stalls tonight and thanked for playing their role in the farce?

DRGH, I think your plea will be unanswered, because I am told that once sharks start eating there is no stopping them.

JSwan

Aug. 8, 2009, 08:24 PM

EqTrainer

Aug. 8, 2009, 08:45 PM

What you seem to be saying is this:

A nonprofit solicits donations from the public, using the nonprofits name. No tax receipt is issued.

But the donations are not "run" through the nonprofit, they are given to a private individual.

That private individual turns over a horse to another private individual that the nonprofit does not screen.

So - the nonprofit is merely matching an owner with a broker, acting as a middleman/another broker.

The horse may or may not end up in a bad home/slaughtered. The nonprofit does not care, as the horse goes to a private person who can resell it. The broker does not care - he is paid and goes and buys or acquires more horses.

Is that it?

With some minor tweaks, mostly being that Christy is just Christy in this type of transaction and not AC4H or even representing AC4H, yes. It should be noted that she did not solicit anything in the particular event up for discussion.

Apparently in the future the person taking the horse will have to go thru the rescue, in order to make the donations tax deductible.

FWIW, I think this is probably just more work for her but it's been a glitch in the system and caused a lot of confusion.

I hope someone will correct me if I've got any part of this wrong.

And what the broker does.. I have no idea. Maybe he just buys a nice lunch for his family :lol:

FlashGordon

Aug. 8, 2009, 08:51 PM

EqT, thanks for the clarification. I pop in and out of the rescue threads, have sent a few dribbles here and there, but just had faith that it was all going the right way. I personally thought that AC4H as an organization was the one dealing with the broker, not Christy personally, so I appreciate that knowledge.

Frankly I will continue to send dribbles for broker horses when I am able and the horse catches my eye/heart. The brokers are in business whether COTH peeps are purchasing horses or not so honestly I could give a sh!t about all this business that we are supposedly keeping them in business.

Anyway I particularly like the photos JLMet has posted of Rally and I hope she continues to put them up. Who was it that took the chestnut ASB home? Oleo I think his name was? Would love to see how he is doing as well.

JSwan

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:14 PM

If no nonprofits are involved, then the entire subject should never have been brought up on this BB. That is horse dealing - not charity. "Private" rescue is horse dealing or simply personal philanthropy. It's not charity.

If anyone is invoking or acting in the name of a nonprofit, and a donor relies on those representations, gives money thinking it is somehow a charitable gift or to be used to further the charity's mission - but the transaction is between private individuals - it's fraud. It may be fraudulent solicitation, it may be private inurement - it could be many things. But it's wrong and any reputable charity will not permit the use of its name in that manner.

This is my first real experience with that "rescue". If this is the way it's run I will not consider donating. I'm sorry.

With some minor tweaks, mostly being that Christy is just Christy in this type of transaction and not AC4H or even representing AC4H, yes. It should be noted that she did not solicit anything in the particular event up for discussion.

Apparently in the future the person taking the horse will have to go thru the rescue, in order to make the donations tax deductible.

FWIW, I think this is probably just more work for her but it's been a glitch in the system and caused a lot of confusion.

I hope someone will correct me if I've got any part of this wrong.

And what the broker does.. I have no idea. Maybe he just buys a nice lunch for his family :lol:

EqTrainer

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:25 PM

[quote=JSwan;4293489]If no nonprofits are involved, then the entire subject should never have been brought up on this BB.

That has been determined and the mods dealt w/it on this thread...

That is horse dealing - not charity. "Private" rescue is horse dealing or simply personal philanthropy. It's not charity.

I agree.

If anyone is invoking or acting in the name of a nonprofit, and a donor relies on those representations, gives money thinking it is somehow a charitable gift or to be used to further the charity's mission - but the transaction is between private individuals - it's fraud. It may be fraudulent solicitation, it may be private inurement - it could be many things. But it's wrong and any reputable charity will not permit the use of its name in that manner.

I don't believe Christy ever came on here and solicited money. The blame is being placed on her for something she did not do.

This is my first real experience with that "rescue". If this is the way it's run I will not consider donating. I'm sorry.

Here is the information from the Broker Owned Horse page. I think it is pretty clear; the only possible confusion would be what is a donation and what is a payment; I hope that Christy can make it more obvious because I think this could be an area of confusion for someone in a hurry. There is also a page for free horses.

---

Information and Disclaimer: Another Chance 4 Horses is acting as intermediary providing the horses with a larger viewing audience and additional time versus the short time they get through the auction ring, if they get that opporutnity at all. We do not own these horses. The information given regarding the horse(s) is approximated (best guess) not guaranteed by Another Chance 4 Horses. Brokers buy and sell horses to earn a living. Kill buyers make a living by sending a horse to a slaughter plant where it is slaughter for human consumption. We have taken a pro-active, preventative approach by listing these horses in hopes of assisting them out of the auction/slaughter arena and into a private home. Dangers of auctions are injury, death, illness and the possibility of being purchased for slaughter. We will include all levels of horses available at the broker lots or slaughter pens. Please read the AC4H Success Stories (http://www.anotherchance4horses.com/ac4hsuccessstories.htm), Page, Reunited Through AC4H for examples of horses reunited with their owners after they wound up at auction, broker lot or slaughter holding pen
Instructions/Payment: Please include a $25.00 donation to help cover gas and other expenses so that we can continue our work. Fill out the release of liability click here for the Agreement (http://www.anotherchance4horses.com/BOReleaseAgreement.htm) print and email to info@ac4h.com , fax to 610-621-5299 and mail original. Retain retain a copy for your records along with payment method. Note: Payment and agreement are your receipt of ownership, agreement to the terms and conditions of the agreement and proclamation that you are over the age of eighteen years of age
Quarantine: These horses are not quarantined. It is highly recommended that your horse is quarantined for a minimum of 2 weeks, recommended 30 days. Please consult your veterinarian for advice and plan for adding a new horse to your herd.
Board/Quarantine: Another Chance 4 Horses is sometimes able to arrange temporarily short term temporary board or quarantine. Shipping to pickup and vetting, Coggins and health certificate not included. Shipping and coggins $50.00, shipping coggins and health cert $75.00. Vaccines - available at additional cost by vet as well please inquire.
Shipping Quotes: email info@ac4h.com with the delivery destination city, state and zip and how to reach you via email or phone and I will forward to shipping groups for shipping quotes.
Insurance -Protect your horse with insurance - for example All American Horse Insurance (http://www.allamericanhorseinsurance.com/)[/- offer's added security for the shipment and for 30 days thereafter at your facility. (not affiliated with AC4H) With living breathing creatures there can never be a 100% guarantee which is why we advise to protect your horse and your finances with Insurance
Questions email info@ac4h.com
Status: Availability isn't guaranteed. A- Available, P- Pending, PL - Placed, U- Unknown
NOTE: At times AC4H is able to assist a horse from this program by taking the horse into the rescue, sending to an approved foster or another 501c(3) rescue organization. When we have a protected commitment, Another Chance 4 Horses will only accept a transfer of ownership form for the horse from private party . The Transfer of ownership agreement (http://www.anotherchance4horses.com/AC4HTOForm.doc) must be filled out as well as references checked. Please email info@ac4h.com if you want to help raise funds to save a horse. Donations to AC4H, Inc. and payments can be made via this link Donation or payment options (http://www.anotherchance4horses.com/ac4hdonate.htm)

JSwan

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:30 PM

The blame is being placed on her for something she did not do. [/I]

[/I]

Thanks for straightening me out on that point. In all the back and forth I formed the wrong impression. Sorry.

Angela Freda

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:40 PM

I too don't object to the purchase of any horse if it betters their situation, who cares where it comes from. When its couched in "save me from slaughter" when its not going to slaughter, when the purchaser is scamming people on a BB to pay for the broker's fees through a "rescue" which is 501(c) I choose not to participate. ASB people can color it anyway they want. Its still running a horse through a rescue so other people can pay for what the adopter can't afford. Otherwise, the adopter could just buy it from the broker. Oh, I'm thrilled. I'm right there.
And if it was REALLY about just saving that horse, why isn't the brokers name and contact info available for those intensely interested in the horse, perhaps at a negotiated price?
Cause he would get harassed? So negotiate for the buyer. Facilitate that.

[Serious Deja vous here, aren't these the same go rounds we had about CBER- though I do believe I was on the other side for some of those?]

Angela Freda

Aug. 8, 2009, 09:45 PM

CANTER does the same thing - and by doing so, has helped an incredible number of horses coming off the track that would otherwise have gone to a very bad end. How many people on this board have something about their "CANTER Cutie" as part of their signature line?
CANTER also has the horses they 'sell' at their facility for 3 months and getting further evaluated, and their prices on those horses are about the same as some of these broker rescues [I am not going to single out one when I feel there are MANY who are crossing the dealer/rescue line] You can get that horses vetted, and he's had time to come down.
Horses bought off a broker lot may or may not be as they appeared on that lot, and there is no option for a PPE.

chaltagor

Aug. 8, 2009, 10:16 PM

Chaltagor- I've private messaged you as I'd like to speak with you. I KNOW what this is about and you can't possibly know the whole story. You've been hinting that what you know is disturbing in some way- I can fill in some crucial details.

You're right, and I can't say anything further as I don't have the whole story, if we are talking about the same horse. If not, then that would give weight to my inklings that this happens to more than one horse.

Anyway, I've figured out what bothers me the most about the whole thing. It's that ac4h has turned away free ridable horses in need owned or fostered by the public, because they are full of horses at their facility that were bought from the broker with the public's money (ok that was an exaggeration, not all their horses come from the broker). I have firsthand knowledge of these two situations and I think it's caused by the snowballing effect of the dreaded "Truck's coming save them!" cry. I do not think there is any scheme or outright fraud by ac4h. I am not out to "get them" or shut them down. Every horse that is out of jeopardy is another good deed, but those horses do not have to all be bought from brokers. The same horse could be gotten from Craigslist or the feed dealer's message board or asking a farrier or vet about horses in need, before the broker is called, for a lot less money. You know, really truly rescuing a horse. And that's all I've got to say, I'll finally shut up about this already! :sigh:

Marli

Aug. 8, 2009, 10:22 PM

Chaltagor- I look forward to your call tomorrow. Thanks.

Lori B

Aug. 8, 2009, 10:35 PM

FalseImpression

Aug. 8, 2009, 10:45 PM

Christy also pulls quite a few from NH. I don't believe all her horses come from the dealer.
However, I have always felt uncomfortable with the close ties between a rescue and a dealer. Lesson learned I guess...

Marli

Aug. 8, 2009, 11:00 PM

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 12:20 AM

I echo the excellent statement by danceronice in post #66, and am baffled by the idea that anyone thinks that anyone is getting rich on a $800 horse. Given what all of us know about what the smallest increments of horse care cost, that seems frankly nutty to me.

Is this a perfect situation? No, but I'm not acquainted with any of those. I sleep well at night with the small dribbles of cash I've sent for the purchase of various broker-owned horses, or their shipping, or gelding, or whatever. I am reasonably certain that the broker in question does ship to slaughter and if they are getting rich doing this, they are doing an astonishing job of hiding that fact. (If I were rich, I wouldn't live in an aluminum sided house next to a highway, for one thing)

The horses purchased away from the broker and their likely killbuyer destinations don't have any idea which kind of purchase gives them a nice home.

Does anyone care that these horses aren't going through AC4H? That they are being misrepresented on this board as being tax deductible? That these are broker owned horses getting sold to people? Of course nobody's getting rich on these horses, nobody said they were. When people come onto this board asking for tax free donations which will not be tax free, I get pissed. Either AC4H was misrepresented, and we were RIGHT to question this from the start, or else AC4H washappy to be represented this way.

Miss Aria

Aug. 9, 2009, 12:24 AM

Either AC4H was misrepresented, and we were RIGHT to question this from the start, or else AC4H washappy to be represented this way.

I believe AC4H was misrepresented. JMHO

MMorgan

Aug. 9, 2009, 12:33 AM

I also believe that ac4h was misrepresented, and yes, I care that the thread on Rally made it appear as though he was going through ac4h, under a contract that would give him protection.

Marli

Aug. 9, 2009, 12:35 AM

I am only familiar with the past situation involving a grey TB gelding. With that situation AC4H was not involved and was made aware of the discussion about him here by me (the interest by a private person). Fortunately for the horse, he did have a committed party that secured him. Christy was not aware of the private interest and discussion here until I brought it to her attention and once it was brought to her attention it was addressed.

FalseImpression

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:25 AM

She did not? I thought I had seen a post indicating that the mention "funds are being collected on the Coth board for this horse." had been added to the grey TB description on the AC4H website. So, who had updated the website? I looked but with all the different threads, I can't remember where that post was.

Marli

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:44 AM

FalseImpression- A volunteer did the update and that is part of what was addressed and corrected (removed after understanding what was going on here).

MorgansRus

Aug. 9, 2009, 01:53 AM

I am new to posting on this forum, but have been lurking for some time. I am not comfortable with donating funds to a private individual I know nothing about, as are others. We should be cautious, and ask questions before handing out our money. I do wonder if one cannot come up with at least half of the money, what would they do in an emergency? I read other forums and am greatly irritated by all the fund soliciting for the ransom and then the hay funds, fence funds, fan/heater funds, etc. I don't know what the answer is. But I think people are tired of being scammed. We cannot save them all and should not feel guilted into it. My financial concern is with my own 4 horses. 2 of which came off the brokers page at AC4H with my own money, no background check, or adoption contract. Their fees I would consider on the higher side, but one is registered, wonderfully bred, and had been shown, and would have been out of my price range in the private sector, so all in all I got a great deal. He had minor baggage but very fixable. Would I love to save more, absolutely, but I cannot financially handle any more horses.
If funds are solicited, by all means they should be approved/screened to adopt. Thats what the Morgan rescue group does. They all chip in to pull the Morgans and then adopt them out to approved homes so they don't fall thru the cracks. Isn't that what it should be all about, keeping the horses from falling thru the cracks again? One can only wonder where some of the broker funded horses have disappeared to, as they just drop out of sight. I personally would feel better knowing that what I helped fund is being taken care of, and with no adoption contract, who's to say. Not that there are ever guarantees, one could only hope.
Most people have big hearts for these poor horses and the unfortunate circumstances they end up in. Generous people should never be taken advantage of ever, but it happens. A few bad apples can spoil it. I am not saying AC4H is one of the bad ones, everyone needs to decide what is right for them. It all boils down to helping as many horses as we can without feeling guilty and having legit questions answered and not belittled about it.

cloudyandcallie

Aug. 9, 2009, 08:23 AM

Do horses from this broker lot ship to slaughter?- ABSOLUTELY. These two shipped last month.

RIP "Classy" and Socially Superior, shipped off the broker lot July 22nd, 2009.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/DSC08166.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/DSC08177.jpg

THIS horse was saved- BOGGS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/DSC08186.jpg

I donate to save horses, not to get into political discussions of what Christy and the others should or should not do. If the horses are not purchased by AC4H or others, they will go to slaughter. Therefore donations should be given with the understanding that saving the horses is the goal, not whether or not the horses are "bought" by a 501c3 or an individual.
It sure would be nice if very rich people adopted/bought from the brokers, but that is usually not the case. Some of the people need help in transportation or for gelding the 2 old studs in Mass. and I'm happy to help out a little. The money we send in is only a pittance.
Non-profits need help in the best of times. Now that the economy has tanked, it is the worst of times, and people are giving up horses and those horses are ending up in kill pens. We're not encouraging brokers to kill horses, we're encouraging them to resell to people who don't want the horses killed.
If people don't want to donate, fine. Those of us who continue to donate, will.
The same people who opposed Mrs. Pickens spending her money to save mustangs are on this thread questioning AC4H. I would hope those people are contributing to some horse rescue that they deem worthy, and would like for them to tell us which ones they deem worthy so we can have the benefit of their investigation of charities.

JSwan

Aug. 9, 2009, 08:46 AM

Oh give it a rest, c&c. No one is in a political discussion - except perhaps you. Interesting how you bring up Mrs. Pickens - who has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I'm trying to figure out who all these people are and how the rescue works - because the threads OTHER people started did not jibe with what I knew of this rescue.

I don't really care what you do with your money. It's none of my business, either.

But I DO care where MY money goes, and I want to make sure that any nonprofit I consider donating to is reputable and managed well.

If YOU have a problem with a potential donor attempting to donate wisely, you just need to freakin' get over it and quit with the "holier than thou" crap. It's really asinine.

Let's keep one thing in mind, here. These nonprofits come HERE for to solicit donations. They have a duty to represent themselves well, and to answer donor's questions. If there is a complaint about a nonprofit, that nonprofit has a duty to answer that complaint (and of course correct any misinformation that may be out there about them).

The onus is on the nonprofit to prove to the donor they are worthy of the donor's trust. And that's one thing I think some of these rescues have forgotten. The public is not just a bunch of pockets to be pilfered at their convenience - we are people who want to help, who love animals, but want to make sure our money is put to good use.

danceronice

Aug. 9, 2009, 02:48 PM

CANTER also has the horses they 'sell' at their facility for 3 months and getting further evaluated, and their prices on those horses are about the same as some of these broker rescues [I am not going to single out one when I feel there are MANY who are crossing the dealer/rescue line] You can get that horses vetted, and he's had time to come down..

And unfortunately if you "buy" on of those horses, you must agree to a contract with significant entailments on what you can and can't do with your property. As I said in the other spinoff thread, if I purchase a horse, and assume all the costs associated with keeping it, I want carte blanche to do with as I please anything that is legal with the horse. Breed it, sell it, ride it, have it put down, whatever, without having to consult a third party that is not contributing to its daily upkeep.

And while having time to "come down" I'm sure is an issue for some buyers, not for all. Same for a PPE. If I am spending $500 or $800 on a horse (again, for me, a relatively insignificant part of the cost) I am probably not going to bother paying a vet. If he's off the track, I'm buying directly from the trainer and I'll ask him. If he or she is honest, great, if not, caveat emptor. I'm not blowing tens of thousands on a show prospect, just a horse that ideally I'll tool around. Max a fair show. If it turns out there's something wrong, that's the risk I took. If I buy from a broker, same deal. I don't get a PPE on a dog I get from the pound (if I had our Molly would have failed miserably--pregnant and loaded with heartworm and neurotic to boot.) We ended up paying hundreds in vet bills on her in the first six months.

And no, I really don't care if my dribble is tax-deductible or not. I don't itemize as I don't exceed the minimum.

cloudyandcallie

Aug. 9, 2009, 02:58 PM

And unfortunately if you "buy" on of those horses, you must agree to a contract with significant entailments on what you can and can't do with your property. As I said in the other spinoff thread, if I purchase a horse, and assume all the costs associated with keeping it, I want carte blanche to do with as I please anything that is legal with the horse. Breed it, sell it, ride it, have it put down, whatever, without having to consult a third party that is not contributing to its daily upkeep.

And while having time to "come down" I'm sure is an issue for some buyers, not for all. Same for a PPE. If I am spending $500 or $800 on a horse (again, for me, a relatively insignificant part of the cost) I am probably not going to bother paying a vet. If he's off the track, I'm buying directly from the trainer and I'll ask him. If he or she is honest, great, if not, caveat emptor. I'm not blowing tens of thousands on a show prospect, just a horse that ideally I'll tool around. Max a fair show. If it turns out there's something wrong, that's the risk I took. If I buy from a broker, same deal. I don't get a PPE on a dog I get from the pound (if I had our Molly would have failed miserably--pregnant and loaded with heartworm and neurotic to boot.) We ended up paying hundreds in vet bills on her in the first six months.

And no, I really don't care if my dribble is tax-deductible or not. I don't itemize as I don't exceed the minimum.

Great of you to save the neurotic dog. I don't care about tax deductibility, but I do understand that some rescues would not want a horse resold and would want the right of first refusal or return, since the objective is to keep the horse from getting killed. I do know that the humane society here has that rule about dogs and cats, as I had to get them to waive it several times when I bought dogs and cats off of death row, literally, there to give to friends. (PTSWSN on the back of the cards mean "put to sleep when space needed," as a young guy who worked there told me).
And yes, you "rescue" costs as much or more as the expensive purebred.
And gives just as much love back to you in return.

I just don't understand the attacks on AC4H. When I contacted them about giving $ for the grey tb after the ASB was saved , they immediately PMed me back and told me the horse was not one that they were in the process of rescuing. I assume that the people who are flaming them chose not to PM them about the horse.

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:02 PM

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:05 PM

Marli, how did Classy and Boggs get into a situation where they needed to be "saved"? According to Secondchance farm (don't know anything about them) they were successfully adopted a few months ago from them.

http://www.secondchancefarmnj.com/adoption.html

Classy is the first horse, supposedly available for adoption now? Boggs supposedly was placed in May. I guess I am missing part of their story. But I am disturbed to see horses leave a 'rescue', SCF, two at least, into situations where they ended up at a broker's. I dont' get that at all.Do horses from this broker lot ship to slaughter?- ABSOLUTELY. These two shipped last month.

RIP "Classy" and Socially Superior, shipped off the broker lot July 22nd, 2009.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/DSC08166.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/DSC08177.jpg

THIS horse was saved- BOGGS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/marlifarm/DSC08186.jpg

goeslikestink

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:22 PM

Classy is the first horse, supposedly available for adoption now? Boggs supposedly was placed in May. I guess I am missing part of their story. But I am disturbed to see horses leave a 'rescue', SCF, two at least, into situations where they ended up at a broker's. I dont' get that at all.
Quote:

the only way that happens is that the horse isnt a rescue at all but in a commercial yard reeady to be sold, or at an owners yard via an agent

agencies can sell horses on behalf of private or commercial people charging a % of the sale they are middle people
but like all bisnesses they are a business and therefore can be classed as broker
for putting people in touch with a sellar and a buyer -
so if the horse say is 1000 then they chanrge say 10% they have earn 100.00 out of that sale which can be classed as a deposit of the horse
until hes passed his ppe or is picked up and paid for in full, the sellar then pays the broker
the monies once the horse has left the property
if how ever the has warranty or clause - ie refund or a return after 30 days
depending on the set up or arrangement with the sellar/buyer then the borker might have to return his 100 .00 pounds commission for selling the horse
sometimes the broker or agent can earn 100 from both the sellar and the buyer charging a comission fee

buying selling on a commission only basis can have its draw back as as one acts as the middle man type thing - then any issues they might be liable for for putting one in touch with the other
again this can come under the sales of goods act or tradesmen act

as for rescued horses if how ever its aproper set up as a rescue
then one pays a donation for the some ask for a donation for the year they sign a contract
and horses for exsample have an inspection of site on quartly yearly visitations
so if the horse was ill looked after at any given time that they didnt come up to standards or that they couldnt afford the horse then he goes back to the home he came from ie the rescue centre
this is why its now important to have legesitration of horses being passported and mircro chipped most rescue centre here in uk now do this with every rescued animal
and owners of equine and domestic pets are required to do the same
so that any movement with the horse can be logged and the horses whereabouts is known
of the owners keepers of said horse
so that in this case maybe it doesnt get sold off in to adealers yard or with a broker
to be sold and the horses whereabouts ends up unknown

or that the keeper of said horse not the owner as it owned by a rescue has sold the horse to a commercail dealer/broker and is letting them deal with the horse in question unknown that the horse is already owned by a rescue
then this is agian handling stolen goods and crimnal charge plus fraud and the borker is unwised to the facct hes aiding abetting a crime

goeslikestink

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:33 PM

I have no problem with AC4H, but I do have a problem with paying people no one knows to "save" a horse. Especially when they come here because they heard we had deep pockets.

There are so many whackjobs out there that I for one could never live with myself if I knew I contributed to a horse ending up in a bad situation. If the OP had applied to AC4H, been approved as an adopter, and taken the appropriate steps BEFORE coming here to ask for funds I might have felt better about it.

the point is as this poster is trying to tell you
it could be a cam to gain monies from you lot its a person asking on behalf of another
bit like chinese wispers on hearsay

so if i came on here and said right i need 2500. to save a horse would you give me the money needed - idoubt it very much
as you only know me by what iam or say on here am i real or false

an adopter of a horse is and should be kept on a data base so that they can have regualr check ups -- they are the keeper of the horse not the owner of the horse as that ownership belongs to the rescue that saved the horse from whatever

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:51 PM

So somebody adopted this horse from Second chance, then sold it to the broker, where AC4H is "rescuing" it again? ARe these horses being passed back and forth through the broker?

MMorgan

Aug. 9, 2009, 03:56 PM

EqTrainer

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:02 PM

So somebody adopted this horse from Second chance, then sold it to the broker, where AC4H is "rescuing" it again? ARe these horses being passed back and forth through the broker?

Uhhhhh... no.. these horses went to the slaughter house.

Marli

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:06 PM

AnotherRound-

The horses that ended up on the broker lot were picked from a farm in NJ that is operated by a gal known by the operators of SCF. In speaking with these women (we backtracked), we were told by one of the operators of SCF that she and her partner delivered the horses to this other farm in NJ (other gal they both know). At the same time, the gelding was with another gal (that's what we've been told/blurb about the horses being picked up here> http://www.nj-horse.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2567 > 'Haybelly' poster), and she brought him to this same farm where the mares were brought and after leaving (again, according to the 'stories' we've been told/btw- NONE of them consistent with the other!)- the broker arrived and picked up the horses. He was called by the gal that operates the farm in advance, and was told there were a couple of horses he could have. The operator of the farm also worked out with the broker, that in exchange for these horses, she was interested in a sound/quiet well broker horse. Even after the horses left and were out of sight (and in fact, the two mares shipped) that gal phoned the broker inquiring how soon he might have what she was interested and traded the horses for. Again, please understand this info was conveyed to both Christy and myself (my wonderful handy dandy conference call feature BUT I do make sure all parties are aware), so it was a three way call inquiring what happened. It's what Christy and I were told.

Of course, after Christy visited the broker lot- and called me to begin identifying the TB's, we knew that the load was scheduled to ship and were pinched for time- and I mean within 1 hr!. The only horse we could save was the gelding- Boggs. > Personally- all I could do was continue to shake my head in disgust <

EqTrainer

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:08 PM

You're right. I read the threads pertaining to Rally last night and it clearly looks like the fundraising went from "foster" to "potential adopter" to "purchaser". Nowhere was there any post that asked donors whether they expected or cared about a "donation slip" or not. Yet, the horse was handled as a direct purchase from the broker, not a transfer of ownership as was implied. I say implied because at the point where people began to question the nature of this transaction, others answered that the money was being collected through ac4h, as a tax-deductable donation, under a 501c3, etc., in accordance with coth's rules. The moderator even reiterated the rules in at least one separate post.

Was it confusing? Yes, but there was plenty of opportunity for the OP and Rally's new owner to correct the error and invite those who still wanted to donate to do so privately, offline. As it appears currently, this horse is in a new home but with no security of a contract.

You guys need to address this and correct it before anymore damage is done to ac4h's reputation.

Marjie

You are correct. But it wasn't Christy who was doing any of the "fundraising" - in fact, I don't think she has even posted a single word on any of these threads. Other people were doing it. That is why I copied the entire broker page from her website and posted it here, to try to help clear up some of the misunderstandings/misstatements. Having said that, I think she needs to make the difference between a payment and donation more clear on that page and should carefully reread every word on the website to be sure the terms are not being used interchangeably.

FWIW tho' - at least everyone can see that this wasn't a "broker to broker" scam.. the horse is really where he is supposed have gone...

MMorgan

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:16 PM

Thanks EqTrainer,

No, Christy wasn't aware of what went on, although she is now. All I care about at this point is that the people involved understand the error that was committed, rectify it, and not repeat it. In order to rectify this, Rally needs to have a contract so that he can be assured of safety. It's the only fair thing to do.

Coreene

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:20 PM

equineartworks

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:28 PM

[edit]

I agree ^^^

AC4H is really getting a beating because of all this. It Pi$$e$ me off that the op that started it all took off and left the mess in her wake. :mad:

Marli

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:40 PM

Coreene/Equineartworks,

I can assure both of you that Christy has been made clearly aware of this bru-ha-ha going on. Unfortunately, and moreso since this is a weekend, she is extremely busy. I have been in discussion with her, as have a few other core AC4H supporters and as supporters of AC4H we have been given the green light to discuss. Christy herself will be coming later tonight to address all this BS. There are two seperate issues combined in this one discussion, both of them are important and do require clarification.

It is a well established FACT, and known by several AC4H supporters that in the cyber world of horse communities there are several individuals that will continually perpetuate and instigate problems and make every attempt to keep them ongoing. It's unfortunate, and especially for the horses that it directly effects.

Personally- I am thoroughly disgusted with the outrageous actions, allegations/accusations of some. Seems there's a few that have way too much time on their hands.

equineartworks

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:51 PM

Thanks Marlifarm (((hugs)))

Miss Aria

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:52 PM

[edit]]

Coreene, no disrespect meant but who the heck are you to tell us to shut up? You're assuming we as AC4H supporters know nothing of what's going on but you're wrong. Some of us have been in direct contact with Christy, herself, and know what has transpired throughout all of this. What MMorgan stated is true, Christy wasn't aware of what was going on initially, but she definitely is now. She will be on this board sometime this evening to address this mess and hopefully put some misinformation that's being stated to rest.

equineartworks

Aug. 9, 2009, 04:56 PM

Coreene, no disrespect meant but who the heck are you to tell us to shut up? You're assuming we as AC4H supporters know nothing of what's going on but you're wrong. Some of us have been in direct contact with Christy, herself, and know what has transpired throughout all of this. What MMorgan stated is true, Christy wasn't aware of what was going on initially, but she definitely is now. She will be on this board sometime this evening to address this mess and hopefully put some misinformation that's being stated to rest.

Miss Aria, what we both mean is exactly that...Christy needs to be the voice right now. Nothing else is going clear up the misconceptions. It needs to come from her at this point. I know many of AC4H people through Special Horses and can read the road map of replies but many others do not. It is too bad it had come to this mess, and like I said... would be nice if the person who started this whole mess did the right thing and cleared it all up...but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

Coreene

Aug. 9, 2009, 05:22 PM

grayarabs

Aug. 9, 2009, 06:30 PM

Where does the broker get his horses? Mostly/only from auctions - attended by KB's?

grayarabs

Aug. 9, 2009, 06:45 PM

There have been some nice looking ponies on the broker's list. Looks like a new chestnut.
Very cute. Really, I cannot believe so many ponies are listed. How many times do I read folks looking for ponies.............

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 06:51 PM

Thanks, Marli. That clears alot up for me, appreciate it.

AnotherRound-

The horses that ended up on the broker lot were picked from a farm in NJ that is operated by a gal known by the operators of SCF. In speaking with these women (we backtracked), we were told by one of the operators of SCF that she and her partner delivered the horses to this other farm in NJ (other gal they both know). At the same time, the gelding was with another gal (that's what we've been told/blurb about the horses being picked up here> http://www.nj-horse.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2567 > 'Haybelly' poster), and she brought him to this same farm where the mares were brought and after leaving (again, according to the 'stories' we've been told/btw- NONE of them consistent with the other!)- the broker arrived and picked up the horses. He was called by the gal that operates the farm in advance, and was told there were a couple of horses he could have. The operator of the farm also worked out with the broker, that in exchange for these horses, she was interested in a sound/quiet well broker horse. Even after the horses left and were out of sight (and in fact, the two mares shipped) that gal phoned the broker inquiring how soon he might have what she was interested and traded the horses for. Again, please understand this info was conveyed to both Christy and myself (my wonderful handy dandy conference call feature BUT I do make sure all parties are aware), so it was a three way call inquiring what happened. It's what Christy and I were told.

Of course, after Christy visited the broker lot- and called me to begin identifying the TB's, we knew that the load was scheduled to ship and were pinched for time- and I mean within 1 hr!. The only horse we could save was the gelding- Boggs. > Personally- all I could do was continue to shake my head in disgust <

cloudyandcallie

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:05 PM

Marli, and I mean this with only the best intentions, it is time for all AC4H supporters on this board to [quiet down] and leave all posts re AC4H to AC4H. I mean absolutely [quiet down] and not decide that what they feel it so important to say should be an exception. Because all these supporters are going off re things they don't know [anything] about, or are half truths, and that [edit] is now stuck on AC4H.

And this is the attitude of the person who has been designed the "judge" of the latest coth rescue contest and auction?:confused:

Marli and Christy, sell the good stuff I'm sending at another auction, not this one.

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:25 PM

Go back and read my post, it was a recommendation to one of the heads of thsaty nonprofit. And I stand by it - the voice of the nonprofit should be the people running it or their designated representatives. Period. Didn't tell you to do anything. People have raised very, very valid questions. The heads of AC4H should be the one answering them.

I agree with this very very strongly, and think it is very important and non-associates of the rescue should not discuss policy and/or how things are done by the rescue, and don't seem to have gotten it throughout these threads, and taking offence at this suggestion puts the organization in a bad light and continues to alienate potential donors and supporters. Its not C&C's or anyone else's place to be the voice of the non-profit, especially with such condemnation of those potential donors and rescue supporters.

equineartworks

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:30 PM

Don't worry, C&C has moved on to our specialhorses.org auction thread to stir the pot. :rolleyes:

Sithly

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:46 PM

And this is the attitude of the person who has been designed the "judge" of the latest coth rescue contest and auction?:confused:

Marli and Christy, sell the good stuff I'm sending at another auction, not this one.

Well, that was juvenile.

Coreene has a good point, and you just proved it. There has been no official word from a representative of the rescue. This thread has been a mess. Many of the rescue supporters (including you) are making the rescue look bad. Unintentionally, I'm sure, but the end result is the same. You really do need to back off and let the rescue speak for itself. You're not helping.

The only thing that will help at this point are answers. Clear answers (from an official representative of the rescue) that detail the inner workings of the rescue and its policies.

That's it.

There are a lot of questions on this thread (note: questions, not attacks) that absolutely deserve to be answered. Until that happens, all of the emotional appeals in the world will only hurt your case.

Marli

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:48 PM

I am going to respectfully ask that everyone just relax for a bit. There's no question that many of us are passionate with all our endeavors; from one spectrum of saving the horses to the other of rationally discussing any bumps in road. Unfortunately, sometimes it requires a small dose of patience, an open mind to understand, read and digest comments and take a moment for some breathing room. I know that all of us are concerned for the horse(s) as the first priority- and on so down the line those questions or concerns that arise in peoples minds. We'll get this worked through, I have full confidence. Thanks in advance! ;)

JSwan

Aug. 9, 2009, 07:51 PM

Don't worry, C&C has moved on to our specialhorses.org auction thread to stir the pot. :rolleyes:

Well now that is just plain sad.

That's the type of crap that turns the public off - and a nutcase volunteer can ruin the reputation of a GOOD rescue in a heartbeat.

chaltagor

Aug. 9, 2009, 08:52 PM

I know I said I wouldn't post any more, but I had to add this: I am going to respectfully say that I feel like I'm waiting for Santa Claus. :winkgrin:

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 08:57 PM

I know I said I wouldn't post any more, but I had to add this: I am going to respectfully say that I feel like I'm waiting for Santa Claus. :winkgrin:

Poor St. Nick, probably wanted to get here sooner, but has to spend time reading this 8 page long "Xmas Wish List" of concerns he must address. Lets just hope he's not marking down "coal" or "pony" next to each poster's name. :cool:

AC4H

Aug. 9, 2009, 09:49 PM

First of all COTH members, I would like to apologize for this entire "train wreck" so to speak. We greatly appreciate the members of this forum and the assistance it provides to the horses and horse owners. It was never our intention to not obey rules of this forum or to cause any problems and for that I am sincerely sorry.

I do understand that helping horses from kill pens and broker lots is controversial and that some may not agree or want to participate. I personally can not stand by and watch without doing something which is how the "broker program" got started. The program offers the horses exposure that some simply would not get. The program is a small part of what AC4H does. Anyone following our work will quickly see that we educate, take in surrenders (if necessary), help owners to place horses with our $0 fee and consginment pages, work with neglect cases, help uphold and enforce the law and of course rescue horses from abuse, neglect and slaughte. We have assisted in off track transitions and way back in the day helped PMU horses too. There isn't any aspect of rescue we do not participate in which provides many with the ability to support whatever avenue they choose to assist the horses in the way they want to.

Now to address specific issue of Rally the ASB horse recently saved. I have reviewed the thread and again I am very sorry. I was not aware of the rules and for that I apologize. After careful consideration as to how to rectify this situation and to adhear to COTH rules of fundraising I contacted Jess and explained, gave her the link and asked if she would be willing to fill out the transfer of ownership form for Rally which would make the funds sent tax deductible and provide Rally with written contract/protection for the rest of his life. She was very willing to accomodate and said she would send the form tonight.

Rescue is a ever evolving process. When problems or situations arise you have to look at what transpired, try to provide a solution and then make changes to prevent the same from happening again. AC4H has reviewed the situation and has implemented the following for prevention: If there is a need that in the future is posted on a forum, AC4H will ask and must have approval from the moderator of that forum so that we know that we are not violating any rules of that particular forum.

We would, as always, like to thank everyone who helps the horses, all of you, regardless of if you send a monetary donation, offer emotional support, provide education or input so that we can improve to better help the horses we are here to assist... it all helps.

I sincerely hope that if anyone has any questions thatthey email me at christy@ac4h.com. I work a lot hands on with the horses we do have horses here lol we don't just list broker/kill pen horses and we are often busy with taking care of those in our care. We are always happy to have visitors we do schedule appointments because of our hectic schedule. We appreciate and love our volunteers hands on and online. As for our financials, we have our federal determination letter, State Certificate of Registry, our 990 is online and we do have an annual independent audit performed as well.

I thank you for taking the time to read this and again my apologies. I hope we can all move forward from here.

Christy Sheidy www.ac4h.com

JSwan

Aug. 9, 2009, 10:08 PM

Christy -

Thank you so very much for the explanation. I appreciate the professionalism and thoughtfulness evident in your post.

For what it's worth I am satisfied with your explanation and consider the matter closed.

Thanks again.

Geek - thanks for clearing that up as well. As a person on the outside looking in - there were lots of confusing posts.

AnotherRound

Aug. 9, 2009, 10:16 PM

AC4H

Aug. 9, 2009, 10:38 PM

Thanks for coming on here, Christy. I appreciate your explaination and outlining your procedures and general structure.

I think what concerned me the most about the threads was the assertion that the horses were AC4H horses, how unclear it was to purchase/adopt a "broker-owned" horses vs. a rescue owned horse, and that COTH could donate to AC4H to pay for their rescue when it began to be clear that they were not AC4H horses and the donations would not be tax deductible, (rules of the board). Mis-representing the use of funds wasn't being addressed, except by shaming and emotionally blackmailing type language, so it was frustrating to clarify whether that was coming from unassociated lay-people or from AC4H its self.

My question is, what is the difference in whether a donation is tax deductible or not when it is given to secure a broker owned horse - is that money funnelled through you? Is it donated to AC4H where AC4H buys the horse, then? What about when people want a broker horse and the money goes to AC4H to purchase it for the person, and the horse doesn't come into the hands of AC4H, is that still tax deductible or not, and can that in the future be made more clear to donors what capacity they are making contributions towards? All horse-getting is good, if it takes them away from the slaughter truck, but I would wish for better clarification when something is passed through this BB, I think I am clear on phrasing this, maybe not...

The definition of a donation according to the law, is that no goods or services are received in lieu of money given. For broker horses, AC4H provides tax receipts for money given that our agreement/protection contract is utilized and the person didn't receive any goods or services in lieu of money given. In the past that has included a horse going to an approved foster home, an approved rescue or into our rescue. That horse is then provided the same benefits as any horse in our organization or if another rescue took possession that rescue's protection guidelines. As acting intermediary for the horses in kill pens and broker lots for those horses in need we do collect the payments and pay the kill buyer or broker. However, there are instances where other rescues know the kill buyer or broker(s) too and then they pay directly to that kill buyer or broker just as Bev of MidAtlantic will be doing on Monday for the grey TB gelding.

If a horse is purchased we receive payment and release of liability that person does not get a tax donation receipt because they getting something for funds/money given.

For further clarification unless AC4H would retain complete ownership of the horse indefinately any funds given to the rescue as a placement fee in which they received a horse or service or goods would not be tax deductible. Meaning unless a rescue retains ownership forever vs. transfer of ownership with first right of refusal - lifetime contract, the funds are not tax deductible.

We do both. For instance Casey the Quarter Pony came to AC4H through a AC agency who wanted us to retain ownership for her lifetime.

I know this may be confusing and we advise most people to check with their own accountant for clarification and legal verification.

Christy Sheidy, www.ac4h.com