RAW VEGETABLE DIET FOR HORSES -- NEW update pg. 51

[caballus]

Go here to see photo record: http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/2009/ARTICLES/misty09.htm

and then go to http://www.lavendersageequine.com
to see more.

Veterinary documented and approved.

[deltawave]

What is "Other"? :lol:

[caballus]

What is "Other"? :lol:

Go to the site to see: http://www.lavendersageequine.com

it's really not a laughing matter ... how many horses are suffering from all sorts of different maladies ... arthritis to founder to cushings to ir to ....... you name it. If this diet protocal can make changes for the POSITIVE for these horses then its not a laughing matter at all, Delta.

[jaimebaker]

This is utterly fascinating. Look at how good that horse looks in so little time. :eek:

[deltawave]

The disease is no laughing matter, but the title of the thread struck me as odd and sort of silly. Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, for pity's sake. :rolleyes: If by "Other" you mean to intimate that horses that are suffering from "all sorts of different maladies" are going to be cured with the latest miracle, well, I'll keep smiling. :)

[chaos theory]

Interesting how those trees in the background take such a drastic change from winter-esque looking to green leafy-ness in just 3 weeks! :no:

[Katy Watts]

I have always been committed to getting IR/Cushing’s horses on ‘some’ grass. That is what my website is all about. I have put a huge amount of effort into finding ways to lower the sugar content of my grass such that my horses can have as much as possible. Green grass is the perfect food for horses.

I agree that many horses locked up in drylots on a hay only diet are missing out on anti-oxidants that found only in fresh green healthy grass and other fresh produce. Notice I say ‘healthy’ grass. Plants and animals share many of the mechanisms to combat free radicals and other cellular toxins. Plant physiologists are now finding that ‘stressed’ grass, such as what most people have in an overgrazed, nutrient deficient, or drought stressed pasture, is depleted of anti-oxidants. It’s used them up in its own defense. They are now trying to find ways to get plants to produce more SOD, the first line of defense to fight free radicals, as a way to allow plants to grow better under stressful conditions.

Plant Physiol. 1993 December; 103(4): 1067–1073.

Overexpression of Superoxide Dismutase Protects Plants from Oxidative Stress (Induction of Ascorbate Peroxidase in Superoxide Dismutase-Overexpressing Plants)
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=159091

Green grass has all kinds of good stuff that we are only beginning to understand. In the link given, the horse is showing improvement even ‘before the herbs are started’. I contend that if people would learn how to healthy grass, instead of stressing it by overgrazing, starving it of nutrients, and letting the pH get out of control, our horses could derive the necessary anti-oxidants and vitamins from the grass instead of spending a fortune on supplements. If your grass is depleted of copper, zinc and manganese that is needs to make its own SOD, how can you expect it to have any left for your horse?

[deltawave]

And if they didn't let their horses get grossly obese in the first place, there wouldn't be the need for rescuing them. :(

[Mara]

Lost me on the Lavender Sage site with the claim that the diet acts as a daily dewormer, eliminating the need for medications specifically targeted to parasites.

I can believe a little of anything regarding herbal and natural medicine. But when someone starts touting their products as a cure for "everything", that's when I tend to write the seller off as either dangerously ignorant or a fraud. I didn't click on the first site, but the Lavender Sage one seems sort of Kevin Trudeau-esque.

[caballus]

Interesting how those trees in the background take such a drastic change from winter-esque looking to green leafy-ness in just 3 weeks! :no:

All I can say is go read the website and see the video testimonies, read the vet reports yourself. You don't have to believe me. Makes no difference to me one way or the other.

http://www.lavendersageequine.com

[caballus]

Lost me on the Lavender Sage site with the claim that the diet acts as a daily dewormer, eliminating the need for medications specifically targeted to parasites.

I can believe a little of anything regarding herbal and natural medicine. But when someone starts touting their products as a cure for "everything", that's when I tend to write the seller off as either dangerously ignorant or a fraud. I didn't click on the first site, but the Lavender Sage one seems sort of Kevin Trudeau-esque. Just for clarification - perhaps you misunderstood my original post. I have yet to purchase anything from lavendersageequine.com ... I've only taken Misty OFF ALL GRAIN and started feeding her fresh veggies and fruit and allowing her to be on grass again. I've recommended fresh "salads" for horses for years and years but always believed they need the vitamins and other 'ahem - nutrients' from our processed horse feeds. When speaking with Lisa St. John she reminded me that all those "nutrients' in processed grains were artificial (chemically produced), the natural original source was 'processed' and that horse only really utilize 30-40% of the TDNs in the feeds.

Horses are herbivores. Whats the definition of "herbivore"? :

"A living thing that eats only plants. Cattle, sheep, and horses are herbivores." from American Heritage Dictionary.

so it only makes common sense that the horse would be most healthy eating the very food that he/she is created to eat!

Plants are forage ... the horses entire system is geared around grazing forage 18 out of 24 hrs.

But maybe, once again, you might go back and read through what Lisa St. John has to say and then think a bit more on it.

The HORSE is the final answer regardless of what anyone says.

[deltawave]

Speakiing only for myself, the comments I've made ARE based on visiting the site and reading what's there. Weepy testimonials abound, hard facts are much harder to come by. I'd love to know what they mean by the breathless use of the word ENZYMES in particular--are there some special properties of enzymes in general that the rest of us don't know about? Which enzymes?

Ahh, too much fluff for me, not enough substance. Kind of like Wonder bread. Which of course is bad for you, but kind of yummy. ;)

[caballus]

And if they didn't let their horses get grossly obese in the first place, there wouldn't be the need for rescuing them. :( I have a client who has a perch/Tb X - that horse is just 4 years old and ideal weight should be probably in the realm of 1200 - 1300#. He gets 1 CUP of pelleted 'total' grain a day. Is in dry lot and has limited, SOAKED HAY. The horse is grossly obese - probably close to 1600#. So obese that I do fear for his life. He also foundered and now is fighting off allergies and abscesses.

What would suggest this woman do? 1 CUP of grain a day; maybe 15# of soaked hay and that's it. Should she stop feeding him altogether? Then he might lose weight ... :(

Perhaps someone has a better idea than to start him on nothing but veggies as an herbivore is created to eat?

[caballus]

Speakiing only for myself, the comments I've made ARE based on visiting the site and reading what's there. Weepy testimonials abound, hard facts are much harder to come by. I'd love to know what they mean by the breathless use of the word ENZYMES in particular--are there some special properties of enzymes in general that the rest of us don't know about? Which enzymes?

Ahh, too much fluff for me, not enough substance. Kind of like Wonder bread. Which of course is bad for you, but kind of yummy. ;) You're the scientist - perhaps you could give us the definition for enzymes and their purpose? :)

I'll quote the American Heritage Science Dictionary: "Any of numerous proteins produced in living cells that accelerate or catalyze the metabolic processes of an organism. Enzymes are usually very selective in the molecules that they act upon, called substrates, often reacting with only a single substrate. The substrate binds to the enzyme at a location called the active site just before the reaction catalyzed by the enzyme takes place. Enzymes can speed up chemical reactions by up to a millionfold, but only function within a narrow temperature and pH range, outside of which they can lose their structure and become denatured. Enzymes are involved in such processes as the breaking down of the large protein, starch, and fat molecules in food into smaller molecules during digestion, the joining together of nucleotides into strands of DNA, and the addition of a phosphate group to ADP to form ATP. The names of enzymes usually end in the suffix -ase. "

Can you simplify that definition for us?

[deltawave]

You are interested in a simplified definition?

OK, an enzyme is a chemical that makes other chemical reactions happen.

What I was wondering is why there seem to be magical properties being attributed to undefined enzymes in the special diet this website is touting. Virtually 100% of the enzymes our bodies need are made by the body itself, not ingested. I'll go along with Katy's explanation that a properly-nourished body is more than capable of making its own enzymes, whatever ones it needs. There is nothing special or therapeutic about them--they are just what the body needs to function, and given half a chance the body will make what it needs.

If a proper, healthy diet is helping an animal, then that's a success. I fail to see, however, where the horses in the videos (fat as hogs, kept on dry lots, being fed bowls of vegetables) are in need of anything beyond proper horse husbandry. The one with the "fused knees" obviously needed a more observant owner or vet, since the knees, although stiff, were clearly moving even though the poor animal was obviously in the throes of acute laminitis. Which, marvel of marvels, sometimes GETS BETTER, with or without someone "healing" the critter.

There are obviously enough people out there that are gaga about a pitch like this to make it worthwhile, but why not just make it a straight up plea for feeding and managing horses properly? :confused: Perhaps that doesn't sell as well?

[caballus]

There are obviously enough people out there that are gaga about a pitch like this to make it worthwhile, but why not just make it a straight up plea for feeding and managing horses properly? :confused: Perhaps that doesn't sell as well? Or, perhaps there's no money for feed manufacturers and supplements companies to make if people start feeding their horses vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds?

I've done the management thing 'right' by 'the books' and the 'experts'. I've dry lotted and have warned against the fructans and sugars. I've turned out 24/7 with free choice shelter. I allow herd living. I've fed, what I believed, to be the best feeds according to each individual horse's needs as recommended per vet and nutrionists recommendations. I fed organic vitamins; supplied Himalayan or Celtic salts, added Flax and Black Oil Sunflower seeds for the more 'natural Omegas". Done the Thyrol L,the Chaste Tree Berry (which reaped small improvements) I feed local, free choice hay when its available otherwise purchase from dealers who get hay from northern NY or mid-west. I inspect the hay - green, leafy, clean, free of dust or mold ... I've been EXTREMELY vigilant and picky and thought I was doing a fair job of 'managing' the different horses' metabolic needs. I've also added in "horse salads" as anyone who has known me over the years will attest.

I posted this post because the most dramatic and effectual results I've EVER seen was when I took away all grain from Misty (she's my 'guinea pig' for this), fed her nothing but the veggies and allowed her to eat grass again, have NOT started her on the herbs from lavendersageequine.com yet (but will when they arrive as I believe in herbals as healing foods)

I've watched her over the course of the last few weeks and I've seen the changes in her body - I'm watching her spirit come back and her health return. In a very short period of time.

I now believe that I've been starving my horses of the essential nutrients and enzymes they need in order to be healthy and to cure themselves. I've been feeding them very expensive "TV Dinners" ...

I've been at this horse thing for almost 1/2 a century - it's only in the last 1/2 decade or so, with all this grass this, sugar that, specialized feeds that I've struggled so with the health of horses and watched so many others do the same. The incidences of Laminitis, Cushings, IR and all these 'diseases' that seem to be rampant seem to be getting WORSE instead of better as 'better' feeds, 'better supplements', 'better medicines' etc. etc. come on the market. All of this IS NOT WORKING!!!! Horses are getting more and more sick, younger and younger and are not being 'cured'.

When something doesn't work then something needs to be changed.

Misty will be the definitive answer for me ... she's either going to continue to improve and heal as she's presently doing or not. I've exhausted all the other answers for her.

[BornToRide]

And if they didn't let their horses get grossly obese in the first place, there wouldn't be the need for rescuing them. :(
I have a client with a Haflinger mare who is on a diet of soaked local hay with supplements - she gains weight when her exercise routine stops.

And natural, as nature intended, is usually best. Another client's TB bloomed and gained weight when she finally pulled his grain and fed grass hay along with pasture grass and a low carb supplement only.

[Liberty]

Caballus,

How much is "a little" grass that you allow Misty? Have you ever tested your pasture grass? Also, did you document her insulin/glucose levels before and after the diet change?

Looks like what you're doing is sure making a big difference for your girl. :)

[deltawave]

Gwen, do you have your hay analyzed? IME leafy, green, and lovely does not mean the hay is "good".　And assuming Misty is the one getting all the expensive supplements (what is a Celtic salt?) why was she getting any grain at all if she is IR? :confused: If all of these remedies work, why are you still struggling with your horse? I'm NOT SHOOTING CRITICISM here. Just pointing out that even people that really embrace the non-processed, commercial feeds and supplements seem to really struggle with horses that are obese and prone to problems. I'm wondering, then, if what we rely on for most of our horses' intake (THE FORAGE) is being looked at critically.　What's in your hay? What's in your grass? How often do you have it analyzed?

Adding a few teaspoons of this or that cannot possibly overcome a problem with 20 pounds of bad forage.

[caballus]

Gwen, do you have your hay analyzed? IME leafy, green, and lovely does not mean the hay is "good".　And assuming Misty is the one getting all the expensive supplements (what is a Celtic salt?) why was she getting any grain at all if she is IR? :confused:
The fructans grow in the stems of the grasses. Good hay has always been noted for green, leafy, sweet smelling etc. etc. The 'grain' she was getting was forage extender pellets (to add more 'forage' to her diet and Poulin Revolution which is 'manufactured' for Cushings & IR horses. Celtic Salt? - unprocessed whole salt from one of the most pristine coastal regions of France. It has a composition of minerals that is naturally balanced and also has an "energy" that is very 'harmonious to the body'.

No, I don't have my hay analyzed because I go through a ton a week and by the time I've had it tested and test results come back I'd be on a totally different batch.

Right now, with the vegetables, Misty is eating a Timothy/Grass/Alfalfa hay from Northern New York. Last year's 2nd cut. Alot of leaves and chaff. Little amt. of flower heads.

[caballus]

Caballus,

How much is "a little" grass that you allow Misty? Have you ever tested your pasture grass? Also, did you document her insulin/glucose levels before and after the diet change?

Looks like what you're doing is sure making a big difference for your girl. :) Because she has not, literally, had grass other than a few mouthfuls here and there in over 12 years, she was being started out slowly - 10 mins increased over a week's time to 1/2 hr. then to an hour, etc. Before she moved her, before *we* moved here, she was out on pasture 24/7 at a barn where I boarded (and first heard of "Cushings" when the 32 year old pony there went into seizure and was put down from it). It's not been that long that "Cushings", IR, Laminitis have become household words.

[Katy Watts]

why was she getting any grain at all if she is IR? :confused:

DW,
I was in barn with laminitic/IR horses and saw a partial pallet of 'organic grain', brought in at enormous expense. Some people believe that laminitis is from 'toxins and chemicals'. The concept has a lot of appeal to some determined to blame the pharm/chem/industrial complex for their horses' illness. There are some internet vets saying that 'whole, organically grown corn and oats' are OK for horses with laminitis. Then they sell herbs to 'cleanse the liver' and allow the horses to 'heal themselves Naturally'. There's big bucks selling this stuff.
Katy

[deltawave]

But you might have to redefine "good hay" in the light of the horses you have as opposed to the traditional "good hay" that was fed to horses that worked very, very hard. Leafy, gorgeous, green, sweet-smelling hay can hide a lot of sugars. For a horse that pulls a plow or goes hunting for 6 hours 2-3 days a week, it' s probably not a big deal. For a horse that mostly loafs and does no hard work, that "beautiful" hay might be exactly what they DON'T need. 　The only way to know is to test it. Otherwise you're absolutely guessing about 95% of their food intake.

Again, considering the sheer mass of nutrients our horses get from forage as opposed to the extras we add, it would seem logical to me to want to know exactly what's in it, even if it was an occasional "spot check". The amount I save on concentrates by getting my hay analyzed more than makes up for the cost of the test. Being so careful about every morsel we select in terms of imported salts, concentrates and "balancers" does not match up with just throwing hay without any more analysis than checking the color and smell. :confused: Rather than resort to another "custom" diet that's meant to be very precise, why not find out what's in the other 95% of your animals' diet?

[caballus]

But you might have to redefine "good hay" in the light of the horses you have as opposed to the traditional "good hay" that was fed to horses that worked very, very hard.

Again, considering the sheer mass of nutrients our horses get from forage as opposed to the extras we add, it would seem logical to me to want to know exactly what's in it, even if it was an occasional "spot check". The amount I save on concentrates by getting my hay analyzed more than makes up for the cost of the test. Being so careful about every morsel we select in terms of imported salts, concentrates and "balancers" does not match up with just throwing hay without any more analysis than checking the color and smell. :confused: Rather than resort to another "custom" diet that's meant to be very precise, why not find out what's in the other 95% of your animals' diet? Well, if someone comes up with an 'at home' tester or instant test for testing hay at the feed & grain store then let me know. ;) Until then I have to rely on the 'health' of my horses and what, exactly, is puttin' the 'bloom' on them.

[caballus]

DW,
I was in barn with laminitic/IR horses and saw a partial pallet of 'organic grain', brought in at enormous expense. Some people believe that laminitis is from 'toxins and chemicals'. The concept has a lot of appeal to some determined to blame the pharm/chem/industrial complex for their horses' illness. There are some internet vets saying that 'whole, organically grown corn and oats' are OK for horses with laminitis. Then they sell herbs to 'cleanse the liver' and allow the horses to 'heal themselves Naturally'. There's big bucks selling this stuff.
Katy
And some laminitis IS from toxins and chemicals, Katy. Most definitely. Some of the illnesses ARE from toxicities ... how can you refute that? I would venture to say that MANY of the illnesses, both in equine and humans, are caused by the many 'toxins and chemicals' in the diet today. But, that's just MHO.

What many don't understand that the 'natural' horse doesn't get to eat oats and corn or whole grains cause the range is eaten down before the grasses turn to seed (grain). So, 'naturally' horses don't metabolize whole grains as well as they do straight forages.

And there's plenty of 'big bucks' being made to formulate all these special processed grains/pellets that are 'no sugar/low carb' too ... fact is, tho - they are STILL processed feeds so the TDNs are not going to be as high as with 'natural' vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds.

[LavSage]

MY name is Lisa St.John, and i am the one who designed this unique program which has proven successful. I will be happy to answer any and all questions. You see. I have success in curing these horses along with hard core proof. I would have thought this would be exciting news for everyone, instead you have let your ego's get in the way. it's a shame really.. This is about the horses well being.. Not yours.

[BornToRide]

It always amazes me how much people like to believe that feeding more grain can't do no harm, yet the consequences of grain overload have thoroughly been documented. Sure the horse will not immedialtely develop laminitis and founder, the progress is just much more gradual, depending on indiviadual sensitivity to carbs and sugars in the diet.

Many conditions develop from mild to acute and yes, some laminitis can be caused by toxicity, suden extreme stress, etc, but if a horse has no history of that yet is still affected, one better take a closer look at the starches and sugars the horse may be getting.

Horses were never intended to eat cereal grains. The few seeds they may ingest from grasses nearly do not have the starch content of cultivated cereal grains.

[LavSage]

I have always been committed to getting IR/Cushing’s horses on ‘some’ grass. That is what my website is all about. I have put a huge amount of effort into finding ways to lower the sugar content of my grass such that my horses can have as much as possible. Green grass is the perfect food for horses.

I agree that many horses locked up in drylots on a hay only diet are missing out on anti-oxidants that found only in fresh green healthy grass and other fresh produce. Notice I say ‘healthy’ grass. Plants and animals share many of the mechanisms to combat free radicals and other cellular toxins. Plant physiologists are now finding that ‘stressed’ grass, such as what most people have in an overgrazed, nutrient deficient, or drought stressed pasture, is depleted of anti-oxidants. It’s used them up in its own defense. They are now trying to find ways to get plants to produce more SOD, the first line of defense to fight free radicals, as a way to allow plants to grow better under stressful conditions.

Plant Physiol. 1993 December; 103(4): 1067–1073.

Overexpression of Superoxide Dismutase Protects Plants from Oxidative Stress (Induction of Ascorbate Peroxidase in Superoxide Dismutase-Overexpressing Plants)
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=159091

Green grass has all kinds of good stuff that we are only beginning to understand. In the link given, the horse is showing improvement even ‘before the herbs are started’. I contend that if people would learn how to healthy grass, instead of stressing it by overgrazing, starving it of nutrients, and letting the pH get out of control, our horses could derive the necessary anti-oxidants and vitamins from the grass instead of spending a fortune on supplements. If your grass is depleted of copper, zinc and manganese that is needs to make its own SOD, how can you expect it to have any left for your horse?


I see you read my information throughly, including familiar phrases of mine in your comment. I have read your site as well and saw no mention of produce, in fact my clients found their way to me because your method has not worked for them. Like you mentioned on your site you are NOT a nutritionist, you do not have the understanding of how a body heals.

[LavSage]

But you might have to redefine "good hay" in the light of the horses you have as opposed to the traditional "good hay" that was fed to horses that worked very, very hard. Leafy, gorgeous, green, sweet-smelling hay can hide a lot of sugars. For a horse that pulls a plow or goes hunting for 6 hours 2-3 days a week, it' s probably not a big deal. For a horse that mostly loafs and does no hard work, that "beautiful" hay might be exactly what they DON'T need. 　The only way to know is to test it. Otherwise you're absolutely guessing about 95% of their food intake.

Again, considering the sheer mass of nutrients our horses get from forage as opposed to the extras we add, it would seem logical to me to want to know exactly what's in it, even if it was an occasional "spot check". The amount I save on concentrates by getting my hay analyzed more than makes up for the cost of the test. Being so careful about every morsel we select in terms of imported salts, concentrates and "balancers" does not match up with just throwing hay without any more analysis than checking the color and smell. :confused: Rather than resort to another "custom" diet that's meant to be very precise, why not find out what's in the other 95% of your animals' diet?

What part of "Custom" is difficult for you to understand? Every horse has their own individual metabolic system. Although the disease is the same, the individuals vessel in which hosts the disease is unique. This is why a "one pill cure all" doesn't work. My program changes as do the herbs to meet the horses requirements. This is how I am able to cure these horses.
it is very simple. I am not talking about symptom control.. I am talking about heath and cures. Please also understand i am not trying to sell you anything, you obviously have all the answers.. I have a huge success rate along with a number of clients who happen to be veterinarians.. They also refer to people to me because of my success rate.. Tell me, what is yours?

[Androcles]

Speakiing only for myself, the comments I've made ARE based on visiting the site and reading what's there. Weepy testimonials abound, hard facts are much harder to come by. I'd love to know what they mean by the breathless use of the word ENZYMES in particular--are there some special properties of enzymes in general that the rest of us don't know about? Which enzymes?


What's so mysterious about referencing enzymes? Enzymes do have 'special' properties (ie. food can't be digested without them) and some know about them and others don't. Enzymes are missing from processed food, there's little doubt that processing destroys them. Fresh food contains within it the ingredients for digesting it (enzymes), which for example makes it important to feed whole grains vs. processed ones. Why the need for intense specificity in an introducotry paragraph? It's easy enough to do furhter investigation and find out that might mean amylase, protease, lipase, cellulase, etc. etc but so what. When people talk about the need for probiotics or antibiotics for their particular purposes, who gets on their case for not specifying which ones immediately? This is just going back to how food used to be fed for ages, what is the need for ridiculing it?

My equine nutritionist suggested a nearly identical program at least 4 years ago, (e.g. including fresh vegetables why is that so hard to say) and the trashing and ridicule was vicious and non-stop.

[Androcles]

Interesting how those trees in the background take such a drastic change from winter-esque looking to green leafy-ness in just 3 weeks! :no:

Where? Where do you see that?

[deltawave]

Being skeptical of miraculous claims and making a continuous effort to separate belief from knowledge has as little to do with "egos" as almost anything else I can think of. And Gwen, my comments about knowing what's in the forage are obviously moot if you're perfectly happy with how your horses are doing. :). But if that is the case, why the need for another miracle program?

[Androcles]

I have a client who has a perch/Tb X - that horse is just 4 years old and ideal weight should be probably in the realm of 1200 - 1300#. He gets 1 CUP of pelleted 'total' grain a day. Is in dry lot and has limited, SOAKED HAY. The horse is grossly obese - probably close to 1600#. So obese that I do fear for his life. He also foundered and now is fighting off allergies and abscesses.

What would suggest this woman do? 1 CUP of grain a day; maybe 15# of soaked hay and that's it. Should she stop feeding him altogether? Then he might lose weight ... :(

Perhaps someone has a better idea than to start him on nothing but veggies as an herbivore is created to eat?

What about exercise?

[deltawave]

Re: "my" program: safe hay and plenty of it, a ration balancer, some rice bran, a vit/min supp because my easy keepers don't get much OF the concentrate, a little grass, and exercise. All natural, nothing special, abd even the cresty pony who came to me with hooves showing very suspicious signs of previous lami has nice, normal feet now and is thriving. Theonly way? Certainly not. Just one. But just focusing on feed and not EXERCISE is like building half a house.

[caballus]

What about exercise?Prior to him going laminitic and foundering he was ridden regularly. He's a pleasure horse/trail horse. But right now, obviously, he cannot be exercised. In fact, the owner is trying for dear life just to keep him up on his feet.

[Androcles]

Re: "my" program: safe hay and plenty of it, a ration balancer, some rice bran, a vit/min supp because my easy keepers don't get much OF the concentrate, a little grass, and exercise. All natural, nothing special, abd even the cresty pony who came to me with hooves showing very suspicious signs of previous lami has nice, normal feet now and is thriving. Theonly way? Certainly not. Just one. But just focusing on feed and not EXERCISE is like building half a house.

Yes but rather a small sample isn't it, and none with particularly bad problems to start with, isn't it?

[caballus]

Re: "my" program: safe hay and plenty of it, a ration balancer, some rice bran, a vit/min supp because my easy keepers don't get much OF the concentrate, a little grass, and exercise. All natural, nothing special, abd even the cresty pony who came to me with hooves showing very suspicious signs of previous lami has nice, normal feet now and is thriving. Theonly way? Certainly not. Just one. But just focusing on feed and not EXERCISE is like building half a house. "Safe hay", ration balancer, rice bran and a vitamin/mineral supplement. All of which are processed feeds, correct? (aside from the hay although with the hay suppliers one never knows how the hay is 'dried' and cured.) So how is that 'all natural' ? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding somewhere?

[deltawave]

by natural I guess I mean my program is largely (95%+ by weight) forage-based, but you are absolutely correct that the concentrates I feed are "processed". This does not disturb me but I realize it does some people. I have one hay supplier and his hay has been very consistent in qualit, which of course is based on my knowing what is in it. If you think quality of forage is all-important, you find a way to know what's in it, IMO. Everything else is guessing if the hay is a big "unknown".

[Androcles]

DW,
I was in barn with laminitic/IR horses and saw a partial pallet of 'organic grain', brought in at enormous expense. Some people believe that laminitis is from 'toxins and chemicals'. The concept has a lot of appeal to some determined to blame the pharm/chem/industrial complex for their horses' illness. There are some internet vets saying that 'whole, organically grown corn and oats' are OK for horses with laminitis. Then they sell herbs to 'cleanse the liver' and allow the horses to 'heal themselves Naturally'. There's big bucks selling this stuff.
Katy

And equally big bucks from selling that garbage spewed out by ADM and referred to as 'food' for the horse.
Surely you don't believe that horses can keep ingesting toxins and chemicals and not be affected eventually.
And if a horse can't process glucose because of hepatic IR what else do you but 'cleanse the liver'?
And what about the horses getting the organic grain? How did they do?

[Katy Watts]

I see you read my information thoroughly, including familiar phrases of mine in your comment.

Actually, I did not make it past your home page. Possibly we got some facts from the same sources. Could you provide us with your educational background? Where did you get your degree in equine nutrition?

[Katy Watts]

And equally big bucks from selling that garbage spewed out by ADM and referred to as 'food' for the horse.
Surely you don't believe that horses can keep ingesting toxins and chemicals and not be affected eventually.
And if a horse can't process glucose because of hepatic IR what else do you but 'cleanse the liver'?
And what about the horses getting the organic grain? How did they do?

Wow. It seems it is impossible to address any of this using rational or logical thoughts, so I guess I'll leave you all to your fun.

[Androcles]

Wow. It seems it is impossible to address any of this using rational or logical thoughts, so I guess I'll leave you all to your fun.

You're right. It's logical and rational to say there's 'big bucks' in selling herbs and vegetables, but irrational and illogical to say that there's 'big bucks' in selling Moorman's Natural Glo.

[chaos theory]

Where? Where do you see that?

In the pictures that the OP posted on her website...

Her website says the top pics were taken "maybe 3 weeks ago" putting that around the middle of June and the new pic taken in July. Now maybe it's just me, but those pics on the top look more like pics taken during the winter (no green on trees save the evergreens) and then the "new" pic shows a green, leafy vine in the background. Seems like more than a "3 week" difference. :confused:

The validity of the OP's claim was somewhat marred by the pics for me. But then again, I've seen Cushing horses make that "transformation" winter to summer with just a simple clip job.

[LavSage]

Actually, I did not make it past your home page. Possibly we got some facts from the same sources. Could you provide us with your educational background? Where did you get your degree in equine nutrition?

I have been feeding horses this way for 30 years. I have been doing this professionally for 16 years... I have also held educational seminars for veterinarians around the World to assist in the understanding of natural nutrition..which is common sense. Many of my veterinarian friends and clients have informed me that they are not taught much about nutrition but have an understanding of it's importance, and with all of their education they are unable to help the animals recover. A veterinarian in Sacramento, California has sent me many clients and his biggest frustration is all that he has learned is school is not helping these animals... the medicines are making them worse in the long run.

This is no secret.. How many horses are dying from degenerative conditions? so many, you can't even wrap a number around it. If all of these products and theories are correct, then why are so many horses sick and dying?

Whole food "natural" nutrition can help provide your horses with the health they deserve. My herbal program targets invaders which cause disease and health issues.. Herbs have been used by every culture since the beginning of time. They also benefit greatly from individual programs designed for them and their metabolic requirements.

All of my clients and horses on this natural feeding program are healthy, this is all that matters.. However no money can be made off veggies unless your a farmer, so it's gets knocked down by many professionals.

I have dedicated my life to help these horses recover and live a healthy quality of life. My case studies and successes speak for themselves..

This is about helping the horses stay healthy not who's right and who is wrong. I am only trying to provide a better understanding of how important nutrition is and what a difference it makes.. People notice a difference in their horses within days of being on this program..

Your ponies are still suffering from laminitis from what I hear, Aren't you at all interested in what could help them? Instead you try to discredit my method which has a 100 percent success rate. Why?

[Androcles]

In the pictures that the OP posted on her website...

Her website says the top pics were taken "maybe 3 weeks ago" putting that around the middle of June and the new pic taken in July. Now maybe it's just me, but those pics on the top look more like pics taken during the winter (no green on trees save the evergreens) and then the "new" pic shows a green, leafy vine in the background. Seems like more than a "3 week" difference. :confused:

The validity of the OP's claim was somewhat marred by the pics for me. But then again, I've seen Cushing horses make that "transformation" winter to summer with just a simple clip job.

I think it's very hard to judge either way. If I'm looking at the same pictures the befores are from far away and the after is a close up with a green leafy bunch on the right but there are spots in the far shot like that too. It all looks like evergreen to me.

[LavSage]

You're right. It's logical and rational to say there's 'big bucks' in selling herbs and vegetables, but irrational and illogical to say that there's 'big bucks' in selling Moorman's Natural Glo.

Bless your heart..

[LavSage]

In the pictures that the OP posted on her website...

Her website says the top pics were taken "maybe 3 weeks ago" putting that around the middle of June and the new pic taken in July. Now maybe it's just me, but those pics on the top look more like pics taken during the winter (no green on trees save the evergreens) and then the "new" pic shows a green, leafy vine in the background. Seems like more than a "3 week" difference. :confused:

The validity of the OP's claim was somewhat marred by the pics for me. But then again, I've seen Cushing horses make that "transformation" winter to summer with just a simple clip job.


Why does the time matter? It was three weeks I have the email to prove it. What is important is that this beautiful horse is feeling great and getting better.. She will not have to be put down.. .. how wonderful is that?

[caballus]

In the pictures that the OP posted on her website...

Her website says the top pics were taken "maybe 3 weeks ago" putting that around the middle of June and the new pic taken in July. Now maybe it's just me, but those pics on the top look more like pics taken during the winter (no green on trees save the evergreens) and then the "new" pic shows a green, leafy vine in the background. Seems like more than a "3 week" difference. :confused:

The validity of the OP's claim was somewhat marred by the pics for me. But then again, I've seen Cushing horses make that "transformation" winter to summer with just a simple clip job.If you read my statements I did say it was June 8th. Yesterday was July 4th ... so, exactly 3 weeks, 5 days. ... almost 4 weeks. 1 month makes a huge difference in the foliage of the trees depending on the type of tree. Also, we've had a month of rain. We still had the woodstove going in June. It was cold. So again, believe what you wish - it makes no difference to me. Those who know me, know this horse, have seen, with their own eyes ... and as was pointed out - this horse will not have to be euthanized unless some turn of events takes place. That, in itself, is enough for me - she is a treasured member of the family as all members of our herd are. I shared this info for the benefit of those who wish to take notice and hear. You don't have to like it - that's your choice. If you don't like it, don't read this thread! :)

[HappierQH]

This is utterly fascinating. Look at how good that horse looks in so little time. :eek:

Congratulations on your success with Misty. I, too, have found success in overcoming a devastating condition in one of my horses through LavenderSage's (Lisa St. John's) program.
Ted "Turner" was diagnosed with Wobblers. Although, 4 years were dedicated to stymie the effects of the condition, Turner continued to worsen over those years. Countless veternarians were consulted and various medical treatments prescribed. They all met the same conclusion . . . he should be humanely destroyed.
IN 9 MONTHS, Lisa's nutritional program not only stymied the disease's progression BUT returned him to a vitality that hadn't been witnessed in years. Even though he was given a clean bill of health from a rebutable veternarian, the nay-sayers continued to cast doubt on his full recovery.
So, I applaud you for your determination to support your horse despite the criticism from the skeptics. Lisa's knowledge in the nutritional needs of horses transcends conventional wisdom. Her clients are LIVING proof!!!
My hope is more people will find the evidence of Lisa's successes in their own horses. If you have a horse do not wait to see how this debate ends. Contact Lisa and watch your horse transform into a health glow.

[caballus]

Wow. It seems it is impossible to address any of this using rational or logical thoughts, so I guess I'll leave you all to your fun.Katy ... what is so illogical about vegetables and fruits? They are fiber/forage. Are horse/equine not 'designed' to eat forage? Are their digestive systems not meant to break down and metabolize forage to not only provide them nutrition but also to help regulate their thermoregulatory systems? The process of eating grain is done in the small gut and the grain passes through in a matter of minutes. Forages are digested in the large gut and take hours to be digested. How harmful is it for a horse to get 2 large meals a day that consists of pounds of grain, a few flakes of hay and then have an empty gut for the remainder of the hours until someone comes along and doles out the rations again? Acid is produced 24/7 in the cecum, is it not? What does this acid do to an EMPTY GUT??? and we wonder why there's such a high percentage of horses with ulcers?

Rational and logical ... ??? Seems to me this IS a VERY rational and logical discussion and we are addressing what is 'natural' to the horse and seeing, in photos, and in videos, with veterinary confirmations.

I've wondered for a long time, now, - and I even asked you about this - why so many horses are getting sooooooo sick and at such young ages! You replied to me about the hay and pastures being fertilized and enriched for cows more than for horses. That was your answer to me as I remember. And that made sense EXCEPT ... my paddocks don't get fertilized or enhanced or enriched except from spreading manure. The local farmers raising hay for horses are raising for horses around here - not cows. We don't have many cows left in this part of the country.

When I was asked to evaluate 2 young ponies, ages 4 and 6, for EXTREME, ADVANCED Cushings disease ... and these ponies were on protocal as designed by Dr. Kellon personally, yet they were so emaciated, so sick, so TOXIC - they were going to have to be euthanized. That poor woman had gone 'by the book' and tried everything possible. I only wish I had known about Lisa St. John then ... not that the woman would have listened cause, after all, I don't have any letters after my name. (sorry for the snide comment. No, not really.) ... Those ponies were absolutely STARVING ... yet the owner was spending hundreds and hundred of dollars to consult with 'the best' ... but the best didn't work for those two babies. It was horrifying to me to see such babies in such horrific condition. The same could be said for the foundered horse I'm treating now ... so obese at 4 years old I fear for his life. The owner is 'going by the book' right now but HOPEFULLY - we can change that and help save this young horses life.

So why? WHY ARE SUCH YOUNG HORSES GETTING SO SICK !?!? Why are the older ones not getting better? There IS SOMETHING horribly WRONG ... and as I said, at least here, on my farm and with my clients if something isn't working then it gets changed!

So, I changed Misty's diet and guess what ... its working! It's not 'by the book', it's not a regime dictated by someone with a whole bunch of letters after his/her name. But I don't really care if Bozo, himself, were the one to tell me about the veggie diet. If it works, if the HORSE IS GETTING BETTER - then that's all that counts.

[HappierQH]

Lost me on the Lavender Sage site with the claim that the diet acts as a daily dewormer, eliminating the need for medications specifically targeted to parasites.

I can believe a little of anything regarding herbal and natural medicine. But when someone starts touting their products as a cure for "everything", that's when I tend to write the seller off as either dangerously ignorant or a fraud. I didn't click on the first site, but the Lavender Sage one seems sort of Kevin Trudeau-esque.

Please consider that LavenderSage doesn't present one product that is a panacea. Mara's comment could misrepresented LavenderSage's site. If you view the information, which is contained in her homepage, you will note that her practice includes herbal remedies, nutritional program and therapeutic treatments. Additionally, she treats each horse and its condition differently. Why shouldn't this approach be revered and deemed plausible? Could our ignorance of the healing powers of herbs and natural medicines make us dangerous to the well-being of our animals? Just think about it!

[Katy Watts]

To set the record straight, my 23 YO PPID mare has not had any laminitis for 4 years since I raised her pergolide dose. Her daughter gets sore in winter when it's below zero and at 7,600 feet, but does not at lower altitudes where it does not get so cold. I also push the envelope a bit with as much grass as possible, and she does start to get sore on too much grass. This is very mild, noted as a slight shortening of stride and lack of desire to gallop full out. She goes back sound within a couple days when I decrease her access to grass.

As I have stated many times, I believe that so many horses are getting sick because the grass has been changed with increased NSC to fatten cattle. This is exacerbated by trace mineral deficiency because people do not fertilize properly, and allow their pastures to become stressed so roots cannot absorb minerals properly. Alas, some of us cannot prevent abiotic stress due to the environmental conditions that our pastures are subjected too. So we must limit access.

[Mara]

Please consider that LavenderSage doesn't present one product that is a panacea. Mara's comment could misrepresented LavenderSage's site. If you view the information, which is contained in her homepage, you will note that her practice includes herbal remedies, nutritional program and therapeutic treatments. Additionally, she treats each horse and its condition differently. Why shouldn't this approach be revered and deemed plausible? Could our ignorance of the healing powers of herbs and natural medicines make us dangerous to the well-being of our animals? Just think about it!

I admit up front that I only skimmed the first page; but I thought I detected overtones of "the conspiracy between Big Pharma, veterinary medicine, and the food manufacturing industry" attitude. If I jumped to conclusions, I apologize.

[LavSage]

Lost me on the Lavender Sage site with the claim that the diet acts as a daily dewormer, eliminating the need for medications specifically targeted to parasites.

I can believe a little of anything regarding herbal and natural medicine. But when someone starts touting their products as a cure for "everything", that's when I tend to write the seller off as either dangerously ignorant or a fraud. I didn't click on the first site, but the Lavender Sage one seems sort of Kevin Trudeau-esque.

Actually the correct combination of whole food nutrition and herbs can help everything, if it the combination, quantity and quality is correct. I agree there is no such things as a "one pill cure all"

My program is targeting and designed for each individual horse to meet his metabolic requirements. This program changes as it should to assist in the horses healing process. Herbs have been used since the beginning of time to treat and heal ailments, diseases and flesh wounds. My herbal program is made up of organic herbs, which are designed to kill parasites, fungus and harmful bacteria which invades the body and causes degenerative conditions and illnesses. However ,this blend changes as it should, and is uniquely designed for each individual horse to ensure recovery. (it also acts as a daily wormer)

This combination of the correct fruits , veggies and organic herbs work effectively to promote health and a strong immune system by feeding the body what it needs to function correctly. A selected combination of fresh whole produce contains the enzymes, hormones and nutrients which target, restore and assist the body in healing itself. They promote cell reproduction, support joints, naturally hydrate the body, provide digestive enzymes, build a strong immune system, healthy hooves, white teeth, and promote overall health and strong immunity.

the herbs are designed to target harmful invaders which cause disease and illnesses. The combination of both whole food nutrition and correct combo of herbs... heal the body, and supports the metabolic system. This program has truly helped save many lives.. Many of these diseases which were cured and documented were deemed hopeless and thought to be incurable. Nature does hold the answer, horses are creatures of nature born to eat natural vegetation and herbs for a reason.

[caballus]

Just to verify dates - I just received this note from a gal who came to a workshop I held here on June 10th and 11th:

-----------------------------------
"OH GWEN!!!! I am SO excited! I met Misty when you were JUST starting the salad diet. I wouldn't even recognize her now!!!!!

Brought tears to my eyes!


Love
Deb"
-----------------------------------

[Androcles]

Just to verify dates - I just received this note from a gal who came to a workshop I held here on June 10th and 11th:

-----------------------------------
"OH GWEN!!!! I am SO excited! I met Misty when you were JUST starting the salad diet. I wouldn't even recognize her now!!!!!

Brought tears to my eyes!


Love
Deb"
-----------------------------------

Huh? :confused: what does this confirm?

[caballus]

Well, I guess really nothing except to trust that she just saw Misty on the 10th of June and saw the condition she was in and now, with the photo taken yesterday (which I posted to a group list), she saw the changes that have taken place in a very short time. It was to address the person who was questioning the validity of the time period.

[LavSage]

To set the record straight, my 23 YO PPID mare has not had any laminitis for 4 years since I raised her pergolide dose. Her daughter gets sore in winter when it's below zero and at 7,600 feet, but does not at lower altitudes where it does not get so cold. I also push the envelope a bit with as much grass as possible, and she does start to get sore on too much grass. This is very mild, noted as a slight shortening of stride and lack of desire to gallop full out. She goes back sound within a couple days when I decrease her access to grass.

As I have stated many times, I believe that so many horses are getting sick because the grass has been changed with increased NSC to fatten cattle. This is exacerbated by trace mineral deficiency because people do not fertilize properly, and allow their pastures to become stressed so roots cannot absorb minerals properly. Alas, some of us cannot prevent abiotic stress due to the environmental conditions that our pastures are subjected too. So we must limit access.

Actually your horse is going through a healing process when he is finally able to eat grass. Let me explain..

Horses were designed to consume grass and raw vegetation. They are herbivores, definition being - "an animal that is designed to eat plants and survive solely on tough plant matter."

To function properly, their metabolic requirements include enzyme enriched plant life. These enzymes provide cell reproduction, enable red blood cells to transport carbon dioxide from tissues to lungs, completely supports the metabolic system. To simplify - Enzymes are a life giving force -

Today horses are kept in artificial environments and confined to limited areas. We are unable to provide our horses with hundreds of acres filled with a healthy variety of vegetation for them to graze upon, in order to meet all of their metabolic requirements and natural detoxification elements. The alternative being grains, horse feeds,, and supplements which is commonly used.

Nature and all it holds cannot be identically duplicated by manmade supplements..yet everyone try's instead of just feeding Naturally.

fact = Horses do not digest grains very well at all.. So how good can that possibly be for them?

Then we have processed horse feeds and supplements which are artificially and chemically manufactured.
" Natural " is a word too casually thrown about..

Definition of Natural according to Webster= "In accordance with nature, being unprocessed or manufactured ."

When horses are being fed artificially and then allowed to graze , their bodies are finally being fed the required enzyme enriched vegetation in order to function properly. The immune system is finally able to kick in allowing the metabolic structure to react in an attempt to heal itself, which is what nature designed the body to do.

The most misunderstood natural occurrence, is an actual healing process. This process is always misdiagnosed as a "symptom of illness." that must be surpressed. Symptom control procedures are instantly provided.

When the body is attempting to heal itself from invaders it goes through a detoxification process which includes symptoms. The body must clear of the toxins causing the illness. The body, when given the proper nutrients, is able to kill, neutralize, transform, and eliminate the toxic invaders. This is a clearing process. A TRUE HEALING

Ironically what is causing the laminitis is lack of enzyme enriched natural foods. Horses, at the advise of many experts, are taken off grass immediately. Grass being the one healthy nutrient they were consuming which began to strengthen their bodies. This process is now being replaced by an artificial program involving medications to stop symptoms (healing process) thus allowing the laminitis to continue and now becoming a chronic problem leading to the horse being put down.

By feeding your horses a truly natural diet consisting of fresh vegetation and the correct herbal combination, will not only cure your horse, but provide a level of health way beyond expectation. :)

[rcloisonne]

Katy ... what is so illogical about vegetables and fruits? They are fiber/forage. Are horse/equine not 'designed' to eat forage?
As far as I know, fruit is not classified as a forage. And unless you're talking about berries that haven't been rigorously selected over many years for high fructose levels, most fruits are also very high in sugar. Even the organic type. ;)

How much fruit does a feral horse have access to? Precious little I would imagine. Ditto nuts and high fat seeds. So I guess I don't understand what's so "natural" about the diet you recommend. :confused:

It would be cost prohibitive to feed pounds worth of fresh, certified organic fruits, vegetables, seeds and nuts to a horse every day. I also fail to understand if you can afford many thousands of dollars for organic fruits/vegetables, why you can't shore up and purchase more than a ton of hay at a time and get it analyzed?

And BTW, the before pic of the palomino on the herbs website shows a dirty, unkempt, malnourished horse living in muddy squalor while a clean, well groomed and well fed horse is presented in the second. There are tons of photos on this site of rescue horses showing even more dramatic turnarounds and I seriously doubt those horses are being fed organic fruits and veggies or $$$ worth of herbal supplements. Amazing what a bath, a brush, a clean paddock and FOOD can do. ;)

[Ghazzu]

Like you mentioned on your site you are NOT a nutritionist, you do not have the understanding of how a body heals.


Are you a nutritionist?

[Ghazzu]

You're right. It's logical and rational to say there's 'big bucks' in selling herbs and vegetables, but irrational and illogical to say that there's 'big bucks' in selling Moorman's Natural Glo.


My take on that was that it's a given that the big feed manufacturers are making a bundle.
But that doesn't make the organic/herbal/natural purveyors selfless philanthropists by default.

[rcloisonne]

My herbal program is made up of organic herbs, which are designed to kill parasites, fungus and harmful bacteria which invades the body and causes degenerative conditions and illnesses. (it also acts as a daily wormer)
Any studies to back up your claims? How about before and after fecal counts? Large doses of tobacco (and herb!) might work along with a slug of arsenic. Both were used quite a bit in the "good old days" when horses were "healthier". ;)

This combination of the correct fruits , veggies and organic herbs work effectively to promote health and a strong immune system by feeding the body what it needs to function correctly. A selected combination of fresh whole produce contains the enzymes, hormones and nutrients which target, restore and assist the body in healing itself. They promote cell reproduction, support joints, naturally hydrate the body, provide digestive enzymes, build a strong immune system, healthy hooves, white teeth, and promote overall health and strong immunity.
Any proof enzymes taken in the diet survive the highly acidic environment of an equine stomach? As already stated, the body, unless diseased and malnourished, produces all the enzymes it needs.

Katy asked for your credentials and training as an equine nutritionist. Have I missed your supplying this information?

[LavSage]

As far as I know, fruit is not classified as a forage. And unless you're talking about berries that haven't been rigorously selected over many years for high fructose levels, most fruits are also very high in sugar. Even the organic type. ;)

How much fruit does a feral horse have access to? Precious little I would imagine. Ditto nuts and high fat seeds. So I guess I don't understand what's so "natural" about the diet you recommend. :confused:

It would be cost prohibitive to feed pounds worth of fresh, certified organic fruits, vegetables, seeds and nuts to a horse every day. I also fail to understand if you can afford many thousands of dollars for organic fruits/vegetables, why you can't shore up and purchase more than a ton of hay at a time and get it analyzed?

And BTW, the before pic of the palomino on the herbs website shows a dirty, unkempt, malnourished horse living in muddy squalor while a clean, well groomed and well fed horse is presented in the second. There are tons of photos on this site of rescue horses showing even more dramatic turnarounds and I seriously doubt those horses are being fed organic fruits and veggies or $$$ worth of herbal supplements. Amazing what a bath, a brush, a clean paddock and FOOD can do. ;)

Actually I supply wholesale produce for my clients when i am able. The herbs are organic, not the produce. I used to live in Ojai and I had 15 guava trees, an avocado tree, oranges, persimmons trees and pomegranate trees. My horses were free and ate everything off the trees.. They loved it.

I understand your scepticism, it's hard to believe something so simple can make such a difference. What's even more amazing is clients are saving thousands a years on this program as well. I am sorry you have trouble understanding the program because it really does make a difference in the health and well being of the horse..
My clients horses and my own horses do not suffer from any illnesses or degenerative diseases. They are healthy and continue to become healthier every year.. That's all that matters to me.. Have a good night..

[Ghazzu]

To function properly, their metabolic requirements include enzyme enriched plant life. These enzymes provide cell reproduction, enable red blood cells to transport carbon dioxide from tissues to lungs, completely supports the metabolic system.

Just which grass enzymes are involved in CO2 transport?
Because all this time, I thought that the major enzyme involved was carbonic anhydrase, which, amazingly, is produced by the horse.

For that matter, I was under the impression that the enzymes involved in cellular replication were of mammalian origin, as well.

Should I toss all those biochemistry books, then?

[Androcles]

My take on that was that it's a given that the big feed manufacturers are making a bundle.
But that doesn't make the organic/herbal/natural purveyors selfless philanthropists by default.

My take on that is, so what? Everyone is in business to make a buck. Warning against herbs and vegetables because there are big bucks to be made in it is as illogical as warning against feed manufacturers on the same basis.

[Androcles]

Any proof enzymes taken in the diet survive the highly acidic environment of an equine stomach? As already stated, the body, unless diseased and malnourished, produces all the enzymes it needs.


I think we're talking exactly about the diseased and malnourished here, are we not?

[Ghazzu]

I think we're talking exactly about the diseased and malnourished here, are we not?

Even a diseased and malnourished horse needs to produce most of the enzymes it needs for various metabolic processes. They aren't absorbed from the GI tract.

However, a good diet, which it is entirely possible our produce purveyor supplies, will provide the raw materials necessary for the production of said enzymes.

[LavSage]

Just which grass enzymes are involved in CO2 transport?
Because all this time, I thought that the major enzyme involved was carbonic anhydrase, which, amazingly, is produced by the horse.

For that matter, I was under the impression that the enzymes involved in cellular replication were of mammalian origin, as well.

Should I toss all those biochemistry books, then?

If you read that again..I was talking about fresh whole foods..produce and so on.. Many horses are alive today because of this feeding regime.. it really does work..

[JSwan]

Why shouldn't this approach be revered and deemed plausible? Could our ignorance of the healing powers of herbs and natural medicines make us dangerous to the well-being of our animals? Just think about it!

I don't know about "revered", but I'll bite. It's plausible.

Now put the claims to the test and allow scientists to evaluate your method, claims and try to duplicate your results.

Until then I'll consider the claim plausible, but until you prove it you're selling snake oil as far as I'm concerned.

Photos aren't proof.

[Androcles]

Now put the claims to the test and allow scientists to evaluate your method, claims and try to duplicate your results.


Now that's funny. Scientists testing food.

And why isn't a photo adequate 'proof' that the horse looks better? Go look at it in person if a picture isn't adequate representation of the horse's appearance. To make sure she didn't doctor the photo. Or something.

[Ghazzu]

If you read that again..I was talking about fresh whole foods..produce and so on.. Many horses are alive today because of this feeding regime.. it really does work..


To function properly, their metabolic requirements include enzyme enriched plant life. These enzymes provide cell reproduction, enable red blood cells to transport carbon dioxide from tissues to lungs, completely supports the metabolic system.

I did read it again.
Perhaps that is not what you meant, but from the above that certainly is how it scans.

[Katy Watts]

Actually your horse is going through a healing process when he is finally able to eat grass. Let me explain..


The pergolide is enough explanation for me. Do you have a testimonial from a vet that specifically says "since you took this horse off pergolide and fed her produce she is ever so much better" ? Perhaps you could give one of these vets contact information to Ghazzu so they could have a professional chat about your treatment program?

[JSwan]

Now that's funny. Scientists testing food.

And why isn't a photo adequate 'proof' that the horse looks better? Go look at it in person if a picture isn't adequate representation of the horse's appearance. To make sure she didn't doctor the photo. Or something.

When I dye my hair I look ten years younger.

Doesn't mean I'm ten years younger or that my health has improved.

She's claiming that her products improve health. In my book that means she should show some evidence. A photo is really nice to have but it isn't proof.

[caballus]

When I dye my hair I look ten years younger.

Doesn't mean I'm ten years younger or that my health has improved.

She's claiming that her products improve health. In my book that means she should show some evidence. A photo is really nice to have but it isn't proof.

OK, I confess ... I dyed Misty white/grey, photoshopped her to look brighter and more alert and having put on weight. I also doctored her leg up so the lymphangitis really looked like it was improving ...

Good friggin' grief!

Ya know what? Ghazzu lives close enough so she can come see for herself. Anytime, Ghazzu ... just call me so I get the opportunity to dye her roots before you come here.

[LavSage]

The pergolide is enough explanation for me. Do you have a testimonial from a vet that specifically says "since you took this horse off pergolide and fed her produce she is ever so much better" ? Perhaps you could give one of these vets contact information to Ghazzu so they could have a professional chat about your treatment program?

Yes, actually I do.. In fact I have a client whose horse recovered from laminitis on my program.....and she is a vet..

[caballus]

As far as I know, fruit is not classified as a forage. A 'forage' is FIBER: "Nutrition. Also called bulk, dietary fiber, roughage.
a. the structural part of plants and plant products that consists of carbohydrates, as cellulose and pectin, that are wholly or partially indigestible and when eaten stimulate peristalsis in the intestine.
b. food containing a high amount of such carbohydrates, as whole grains, fruits, and vegetables." And unless you're talking about berries that haven't been rigorously selected over many years for high fructose levels, most fruits are also very high in sugar. Even the organic type. ;) "Natural sugars are quite different from processed sugars and in VINE RIPENED vegetable and fruits are 'Glyconutrients" - 8 of them - that are ESSENTIAL to the regeneration of damaged cells and the growth of new cells.

pquote]How much fruit does a feral horse have access to? Precious little I would imagine. Ditto nuts and high fat seeds. So I guess I don't understand what's so "natural" about the diet you recommend. :confused:[/quote] Well, I guess it depends on what environment in which the horse lives - coastal, mountainous, forest and woods or plains. Different vegetation grows according to the region. So I guess it would depend where the horse lives, wouldn't you agree?


It would be cost prohibitive to feed pounds worth of fresh, certified organic fruits, vegetables, seeds and nuts to a horse every day. I also fail to understand if you can afford many thousands of dollars for organic fruits/vegetables, why you can't shore up and purchase more than a ton of hay at a time and get it analyzed? There is no reason why I can't shore up and purchase more than a ton of hay but I do have a slight problem in a place to store it safely. But, I don't consider my financial state or my facilites to be any of your business, to be honest.

And BTW, the before pic of the palomino on the herbs website shows a dirty, unkempt, malnourished horse living in muddy squalor while a clean, well groomed and well fed horse is presented in the second. There are tons of photos on this site of rescue horses showing even more dramatic turnarounds and I seriously doubt those horses are being fed organic fruits and veggies or $$$ worth of herbal supplements. Amazing what a bath, a brush, a clean paddock and FOOD can do. ;) That palomino showed a SICK HORSE - and 6 weeks later that horse is shown to be vibrant and strong. your point?

[grayarabs]

Gwen - thanks for sharing this. It is - literally - food for thought.
I have written about my 23 y.o. with allergies - seemingly cannot eat hay (COPD) - soaked or otherwise. No grass for two years. He has been living on an soaked alfalfa pellet/cube diet and I hate it. I can get no definitive answers in regards to molds on grass vs molds on hay. (SPACOPD?). Finally, I could stand it no longer. I started letting him graze.
The only thing I know to do is check his resp rate before and after grazing.
Just as I decide to do this - the grass turns brown due to lack of rain. I am reminded of my reading - thanks to Katy - about stressed grass and higher sugar contents.
Can one generally assume that green grass is "safer" than brown grass? The other day I found a patch of green grass and let my horse graze there. I hope to be able to continue to do so. All this scares the daylights out of me - having previous lost a horse to Cushings/IR/Laminitis. Present horse is not slick coat-wise - was tested for Cushings - results negative - but I still worry. I have in the past tried offering him romaine lettuce and celery but he would not eat it. I let him browse on elm trees (leaves/stems).
Some carrots. After losing a horse to laminitis - it was a long time after owning present horse that I had the courage to even give him a carrot. I will research the website Gwen provided (lavendar?). I want to thank you ladies for your research. There is so much we don't know - and/but sometimes we just have to try - and pray!!!

[rcloisonne]

And why isn't a photo adequate 'proof' that the horse looks better?
Good grief! "Before" and "after" photos are one of the the oldest snake oil tricks in the book. Advertizing agencies do it all the time! You know, the type of ad that shows a pale, depressed looking woman with dirty, uncombed hair, dressed in old clothes suddenly becomes a ravishing beauty overnight just by applying this lipstick or that eyeliner? Of course she's now completely and professionally done up (hair, makeup, clothes, etc.) and sporting a big toothy smile. Oooh! I'll have to run right out and get me some of that! :rolleyes: Apparently, a lot of people continue to fall for this type of nonsense.

[caballus]

Ya know what? What is the issue with this anyway? That some choose to feed a more natural diet to the horse? That horses are being HELPED by this diet? What the hell are you in horses for if you don't want healthy strong horses ... problems with the fact that someone has done and researched and proven that something other than what is considered 'scientifically proven' to work? I don't give a hoot and a holler if the Pope, himself, said sweet feed is THE ONLY FEED to feed a horse. If it doesn't cause health and well being for the animal then its WRONG. Period. Bright shiny eyes, soft, silky coat, movement that is graceful and free ... (OMG -- even BAREFOOTED!) ... If someone can't see past their own walls to see that a horse is getting healthy on something OTHER than what is the 'fad' then I feel badly for the horses. They don't deserve to live in the clutches of human egos and fears.

Now, please someone hand me another glass of wine so I can become even MORE mouthy?
*GRIN*

[rcloisonne]

That palomino showed a SICK HORSE - and 6 weeks later that horse is shown to be vibrant and strong. your point?
See post 78. ;)

[deltawave]

Random thought: if horses are not meant to eat grain naturally (according to a post on page one), how is adding fruits and vegetables (and did someone mention NUTS, as well--I'm referring to the foodstuff, of course) to the diet of an animal meant to subsist solely on very poor grass forage MORE natural? :confused:

[caballus]

See post 78. ;)Yep, forages and fresh vegetation is certainly the WORST KIND OF SNAKE OIL.

[caballus]

Random thought: if horses are not meant to eat grain naturally (according to a post on page one), how is adding fruits and vegetables (and did someone mention NUTS, as well--I'm referring to the foodstuff, of course) to the diet of an animal meant to subsist solely on very poor grass forage MORE natural? :confused:Grain is NOT fresh vegetation. Or am I missing something here?

[caballus]

However, a good diet, which it is entirely possible our produce purveyor supplies, will provide the raw materials necessary for the production of said enzymes. And what happens to those raw materials when going through their 'processing' ???? Extruded feeds, compacted, cooked pelleted grain, sweet feeds that are processed with molasses? What happens to the NUTRIENTS when the raw materials are cooked and processed?

[deltawave]

Bright shiny eyes, soft, silky coat, movement that is graceful and free ... (OMG -- even BAREFOOTED!) ... If someone can't see past their own walls to see that a horse is getting healthy on something OTHER than what is the 'fad' then I feel badly for the horses. They don't deserve to live in the clutches of human egos and fears.

Most people would agree this is an admirable goal. And that there are many, many ways to get there. One would think that all the so-called "experts" would never even have a horse doing so poorly that they need to tout the latest/most newly-discovered miracle diet. One would think that when someone wants to know what they're feeding their horse, that the place to start would be the forage, and what's in it. But apparently not--it's too inconvenient to check, so we feed what we think is good and when that isn't working we look for yet another miracle--this really astounds me. It's like saying "my kids only eat cereal, they should be healthy and when they're not I am going to blame the tap water" without realizing that the "cereal" might just be Cap'N Crunch. :)

[deltawave]

Grain is NOT fresh vegetation. Or am I missing something here?

Yes, you're missing my emphasis on what is NATURAL to the horse, or in other words what nature intended for them to eat. Which does not, IIRC, include fruits, nuts, and vegetables in quantities very much larger than the random mouthful of seeds or (gasp) grains.

[appychik]

I'm always open to new ideas... still curious though. What exactly are LavSage's credentials? Cause it seems like she's skirted by that question a couple times ;).

[Ghazzu]

... just call me so I get the opportunity to dye her roots before you come here.


Well, you need to make sure that you use only natural plant-derived pigments, though.

[deltawave]

Credentials or no, I'm curious how ANY "nutrition expert" can develop an individualized feeding program for an animal when the only information on the rest of the diet is "hay". It's like telling a diabetic to "give yourself some insulin" and leaving it at that. What is the diet based on, if not knowledge of what else the animal is eating? :confused:

[Ghazzu]

And what happens to those raw materials when going through their 'processing' ???? Extruded feeds, compacted, cooked pelleted grain, sweet feeds that are processed with molasses? What happens to the NUTRIENTS when the raw materials are cooked and processed?

In some cases, they are degraded.
In other cases, they become more bioavailable.

The point being that the "enzymes" in the fresh food are not the same ones that the horse utilizes in its varied metabolic activities.

Not opposed to fresh food.
Opposed to junk science.

[Androcles]

Good grief! "Before" and "after" photos are one of the the oldest snake oil tricks in the book. Advertizing agencies do it all the time! You know, the type of ad that shows a pale, depressed looking woman with dirty, uncombed hair, dressed in old clothes suddenly becomes a ravishing beauty overnight just by applying this lipstick or that eyeliner? Of course she's now completely and professionally done up (hair, makeup, clothes, etc.) and sporting a big toothy smile. Oooh! I'll have to run right out and get me some of that! :rolleyes: Apparently, a lot of people continue to fall for this type of nonsense.

Yes I"m sure they're doctoring photos to get you to buy more of their fruits and vegetables to feed to your horse.

This is not an advertisement - what other 'proof' of how her horse looks before/after would you suggest? Sounds like you're not that far away - go have a look for yourself. Good grief.

[rcloisonne]

Yes I"m sure they're doctoring photos to get you to buy more of their fruits and vegetables to feed to your horse.

I guess you missed the all natural, organic herbs she's hawking?

LavenderSage (LS) Equine Performance Blend© is comprised of all organic herbs and ingredients designed to obtain optimum health and performance of your horse. The strong anti-oxidant properties found in the LS Equine Performance Blend© are designed to kill foreign invaders, which attack the cellular system. LS Equine Performance Blend© works in preventing the population of these attackers, such as parasites, fungus and bacteria, and is an effective daily wormer while preventing disease and other illnesses. The best offense to potential health issues and disease is a strong defense.

This is not an advertisement ...
:lol: O-kay... :lol:

[JSwan]

Not calling you a liar - I'm questioning the health claims made by Lavender Sage.
She's the one making health claims. Some pretty big claims only backed by testimonials by people who "believe".

If anyone - layperson or professional, is going to make health claims and assert a particular diet cures or treats disease, it's reasonable to want to see at least some science based evidence - and that includes lining up horses and using them as guinea pigs. Not just taking snapshots.

Don't have any problem with eating healthy food. Don't have a problem with horse's eating a healthy diet. I have a problem with people making claims that their products cure or treat disease yet cannot provide proof beyond testimonials. I'm not condemning anyone's personal beliefs or ridiculing their way of life. Or their choices. I'd just like for claims to be put to the test. Real tests - not photos. No offense.


OK, I confess ... I dyed Misty white/grey, photoshopped her to look brighter and more alert and having put on weight. I also doctored her leg up so the lymphangitis really looked like it was improving ...

Good friggin' grief!

Ya know what? Ghazzu lives close enough so she can come see for herself. Anytime, Ghazzu ... just call me so I get the opportunity to dye her roots before you come here.

[jaimebaker]

How much fruit does a feral horse have access to? Precious little I would imagine. Ditto nuts and high fat seeds. So I guess I don't understand what's so "natural" about the diet you recommend. :confused:


I'm sure it's about the same access a horse has to a crop of corn. Or soybean. Or beet pulp. ETc, etc, etc, etc.

Seriously, why is this SOOO unbelievable about a fruit and veggie diet? We've been feeding horses shit for years they weren't meant to eat. I think folks need to get their head out of the sand. I don't know the answers and I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong, but I don't see how any 'conventional' ways I've seen on this board of feeding horses which is beet pulp, or fortified feeds with assloads of soy in them are ANY more bizarre than fruits and vegetables.:confused:

[Androcles]

I guess you missed the all natural, organic herbs she's hawking?




:lol: O-kay... :lol:

Sorry but you're wrong. The OP - with the photo - is from a customer who is selling nothing. The seller has since weighed in. I guess you missed the part where she said this was before adding anything other than fresh food.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D

[jaimebaker]

Sorry but you're wrong. The OP - with the photo - is from a customer who is selling nothing. The seller has since weighed in. I guess you missed the part where she said this was before adding anything other than fresh food.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D

Yeah that. There were no herbs used on that horse. I'm sure she linked the site because that's where she got the info on the fruit and veggie diet.

[caballus]

Well, you need to make sure that you use only natural plant-derived pigments, though. Oh my - absolutely! What 'dye' causes white?

[caballus]

Yeah that. There were no herbs used on that horse. I'm sure she linked the site because that's where she got the info on the fruit and veggie diet.

yes .. to reiterate. I've bought NOTHING from lavendersageequine.com. I have herbs ordered but they've not yet arrived. The ONLY thing that I did with Misty was to omit ALL PROCESSED GRAINS AND SUPPLEMENTS and am feeding her NOTHING but good quality hay and veggies/fruits/etc. - and some honest-to-goodness grass fertilized with nothing but .. horse manure!

So this isn't about making money for anyone else or for myself. This is about what has transpired over a VERY short period of time by just cutting out the processed 'stuff' and replacing with natural foods.

The only one who is making $$ off this is Price Chopper and Stop and Shop.

[caballus]

Not calling you a liar - I'm questioning the health claims made by Lavender Sage.
She's the one making health claims. Some pretty big claims only backed by testimonials by people who "believe".

If anyone - layperson or professional, is going to make health claims and assert a particular diet cures or treats disease, it's reasonable to want to see at least some science based evidence - and that includes lining up horses and using them as guinea pigs. Not just taking snapshots.

Don't have any problem with eating healthy food. Don't have a problem with horse's eating a healthy diet. I have a problem with people making claims that their products cure or treat disease yet cannot provide proof beyond testimonials. I'm not condemning anyone's personal beliefs or ridiculing their way of life. Or their choices. I'd just like for claims to be put to the test. Real tests - not photos. No offense. What better test than the results in the horse, himself? And, edited to ask ... what are *real tests* anyway? There is no way to test with any sort of conclusive, 100% results - every horse is an individual. Photos speak a thousand words. If one doesn't believe the written word from an individual then the photos provide the proof in the pudding.

[JSwan]

Um - so basically you turned your horse out on grass.

Where I come from we call that Dr. Green. Been done - well - forever.

Hope the horse continues to do well, but I'm afraid I'm not sure why you provided a link to that site - as the owner is making claims that her products cure or treat disease and you're not feeding any of it.

ETA - again - what results? The horse is doing better. What caused the improvement? How did you document it? Did a vet perform any tests - before and after? How is the animals health being monitored? Are the results measurable? Can you reproduce the results in other horses?

I'm not a scientist and even I can see flaws in "diet cures all" claims. Again - I'm happy that your horse is improving but it's a far cry from saying that a particular diet is The Solution. That LS person could be concocting all sorts of "herbal" remedies that could ruin your horse's liver or cause other health problems - or they could do nothing at all. Or they could cure cancer for all I know.

[deltawave]

Seriously, why is this SOOO unbelievable about a fruit and veggie diet? We've been feeding horses shit for years they weren't meant to eat. I think folks need to get their head out of the sand. I don't know the answers and I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong, but I don't see how any 'conventional' ways I've seen on this board of feeding horses which is beet pulp, or fortified feeds with assloads of soy in them are ANY more bizarre than fruits and vegetables.:confused:

It's not that it's unbelievable or even irrational. The horses probably enjoy it. :) But it is not exactly "natural", any more so than eating grain is "natural". Why one is better than the other is quite unclear with the information given. And there are quite a few people here who consider feeding a single baby carrot to an IR horse tantamount to poisoning them. :lol:

[caballus]

In some cases, they are degraded.
In other cases, they become more bioavailable.

The point being that the "enzymes" in the fresh food are not the same ones that the horse utilizes in its varied metabolic activities.

Not opposed to fresh food.
Opposed to junk science. And you consider feeding fresh vegetation to a domestic horse to be junk science?

[deltawave]

Feeding is feeding. Junk science is making the mundane sound technical and the unproven sound proven via verbal jiu-jitsu.

[Ghazzu]

Oh my - absolutely! What 'dye' causes white?

See, now I know you're making all this up.
With all this rain, there are no white horses left in Massachusetts.

[caballus]

It's not that it's unbelievable or even irrational. The horses probably enjoy it. :) But it is not exactly "natural", any more so than eating grain is "natural". Why one is better than the other is quite unclear with the information given. And there are quite a few people here who consider feeding a single baby carrot to an IR horse tantamount to poisoning them. :lol:Why is is not natural? My horses, when in FL, had free access to grapefruits, bananas and oranges. They ate the trees bare. They also chowed on other shrubs and palmettos and natural vegetation that was in the pasture. My horses up here eat the white pines, the acorns, the grasses, chew the bark of the red maple trees, lick dirt, lick rocks, lick their salt blocks, eat their veggies ... a few have been known to 'escape' and get into the garden where they promptly dined on beans, peas, carrots, beets, spinach and tomatoes !!! I'm sure if we lived on the coast then they'd enjoy a meal of seaweed and salt marsh grasses, beach roses (oh, yeah, my guys here strip my Rosa rugosa pretty much bare, thorns and all PLUS the thistles that grow around the edge of the paddocks.) ... horses eat the vegetation that is native to their environment in which they live. Wild yam, wild onions, wild ginseng, plantain, roses, various trees, shrubs, ... etc. etc. So why is eating vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds not 'natural' ?

Heck, I don't see many Blue Seal feed bags empty out on the BLM lands.

[caballus]

See, now I know you're making all this up.
With all this rain, there are no white horses left in Massachusetts.Oh MAN! ya got that right! All the pretty white horses are now grays and blacks.

[deltawave]

No wonder they're laminitic. :)

Once again. I'm using NATURAL as a substitute for WHAT NATURE INTENDED, not WHAT A HORSE WILL STUFF INTO ITS FACE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. By the definition above (they eat all sorts of strange things given the chance), a bag of sweet feed is natural, too, since a horse that escapes from the paddock and finds an empty bag is highly likely to dive in face first. :)

Not saying horses can't thrive on quite odd diets, many do. But Mother Nature didn't intend for horses to browse on grapefruits and bananas. :)

[foggybok]

Katy ... what is so illogical about vegetables and fruits? They are fiber/forage. Are horse/equine not 'designed' to eat forage? Are their digestive systems not meant to break down and metabolize forage to not only provide them nutrition but also to help regulate their thermoregulatory systems? The process of eating grain is done in the small gut and the grain passes through in a matter of minutes. Forages are digested in the large gut and take hours to be digested. How harmful is it for a horse to get 2 large meals a day that consists of pounds of grain, a few flakes of hay and then have an empty gut for the remainder of the hours until someone comes along and doles out the rations again? Acid is produced 24/7 in the cecum, is it not? What does this acid do to an EMPTY GUT??? and we wonder why there's such a high percentage of horses with ulcers?

.

I'm having a little trouble following some of the logic in your arguments, for example, you talk about how grains are unnatural, but fruits and vegetables are great? Feral roaming horses do indeed eat grains, as they eat the seed heads off the grasses. As far as I know, feral horses do not root for yams or graze on bananas, some of the elements in your salad. From your website she gets 2 yams, 1 apple, 1 orange, 1 banana, 2 radishes, 2 carrots, 1 avocado, handfulof sprouts, spring mix greens, 1/4 c. of Safflower oil with garlic and rosemary. Now I don't doubt that those things are good for her as they are all nutritious foods, but they are hardly part of a natural horse diet and no more natural for a horse than grains. And I'm sure you know that the sugar content of some of those things is sky high and certainly involves digestion in the small intestine...

As far as cecum and acidity, it would be hard to find an empty cecum even on a horse that was eating twice a day. And I don't see anyone here promoting small feedings of forage with big grain meals twice a day...

Your before and after pics could be my horse last year when he moved from dry lot in CA on June 1 to grass pasture here in WA. Shed out to a beautiful bloom in that time and looked better than he had in a long time. Yes, fresh forage IS good for horses (providing it's not overdone of course..). I don't think you'll find an argument against that, what you will hear is that high amounts of high sugar grass are bad for horses.... That's been true as long as I can remember....



From LavSage: Actually the correct combination of whole food nutrition and herbs can help everything, if it the combination, quantity and quality is correct. I agree there is no such things as a "one pill cure all"

My program is targeting and designed for each individual horse to meet his metabolic requirements. This program changes as it should to assist in the horses healing process. Herbs have been used since the beginning of time to treat and heal ailments, diseases and flesh wounds. My herbal program is made up of organic herbs, which are designed to kill parasites, fungus and harmful bacteria which invades the body and causes degenerative conditions and illnesses. However ,this blend changes as it should, and is uniquely designed for each individual horse to ensure recovery. (it also acts as a daily wormer)



Not one of my teachers in herbal medicine would say what you just said. Every one of them will say there is a time and place for western medicine. Herbs can help many things, but not all...

At a previous job, I studied a lot of herbal remedies, and they DO work. But they work because they contain chemicals that have biological activity.

For your reference, I am trained in western medicine as well as acupuncture and TCM and I have studied the properties of many herbal preparations from a scientific standpoint.

[caballus]

No wonder they're laminitic. :)

Once again. I'm using NATURAL as a substitute for WHAT NATURE INTENDED, not WHAT A HORSE WILL STUFF INTO ITS FACE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. By the definition above (they eat all sorts of strange things given the chance), a bag of sweet feed is natural, too, since a horse that escapes from the paddock and finds an empty bag is highly likely to dive in face first. :)

Not saying horses can't thrive on quite odd diets, many do. But Mother Nature didn't intend for horses to browse on grapefruits and bananas. :) If that's what is afforded in their natural environment as ferals it is.

What, exactly, did 'NATURE INTEND'? To eat processed, manufactured grains?

[Androcles]

Um - so basically you turned your horse out on grass.

Where I come from we call that Dr. Green. Been done - well - forever.



I think that's the point.

[jaimebaker]

No wonder they're laminitic. :)

Once again. I'm using NATURAL as a substitute for WHAT NATURE INTENDED, not WHAT A HORSE WILL STUFF INTO ITS FACE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. By the definition above (they eat all sorts of strange things given the chance), a bag of sweet feed is natural, too, since a horse that escapes from the paddock and finds an empty bag is highly likely to dive in face first. :)

Not saying horses can't thrive on quite odd diets, many do. But Mother Nature didn't intend for horses to browse on grapefruits and bananas. :)

So mother nature intended them to eat soybeans and beet pulp??? What do you feed your horses???

[Ghazzu]

And you consider feeding fresh vegetation to a domestic horse to be junk science?

One. More. Time.

I consider salting the hype with pseudoscientific blather to be junk science.

Like the statement conflating enzymes in food with enzymes which mediate metabolic processes within the animal which I quoted.

Good food is good food.

[caballus]

I'm having a little trouble following some of the logic in your arguments, for example, you talk about how grains are unnatural, but fruits and vegetables are great? Feral roaming horses do indeed eat grains, as they eat the seed heads off the grasses. If there are any seed heads left after the horses have grazed the grasses. As far as I know, feral horses do not root for yams or graze on bananas, some of the elements in your salad. If available in their natural habitat, of course they will. and yes, they did for roots. From your website she gets 2 yams, 1 apple, 1 orange, 1 banana, 2 radishes, 2 carrots, 1 avocado, handfulof sprouts, spring mix greens, 1/4 c. of Safflower oil with garlic and rosemary. Now I don't doubt that those things are good for her as they are all nutritious foods, but they are hardly part of a natural horse diet and no more natural for a horse than grains. they are whole foods - not processed. Not manufactured. Not altered. (well, except for GE). And I'm sure you know that the sugar content of some of those things is sky high and certainly involves digestion in the small intestine... NATURAL sugars ... and vine ripened veggies that contain .. HORRORS - GLYCONUTRIENTS! 8 essential sugars that are needed to repair cells, help regenerate healthy cells and grow new cells. ONLY found in vine-ripened veggies.

As far as cecum and acidity, it would be hard to find an empty cecum even on a horse that was eating twice a day. And I don't see anyone here promoting small feedings of forage with big grain meals twice a day... maybe not 'here' but obviously you've not spent much time at larger show barns if you've not seen this practice.

Your before and after pics could be my horse last year when he moved from dry lot in CA on June 1 to grass pasture here in WA. Shed out to a beautiful bloom in that time and looked better than he had in a long time. Yes, fresh forage IS good for horses (providing it's not overdone of course..). I don't think you'll find an argument against that, what you will hear is that high amounts of high sugar grass are bad for horses.... That's been true as long as I can remember.... OH kewl! ... you have a 'late stage' Cushings horse with Lymphangitis, too? Let's share stories ... ;)

[caballus]

Good food is good food.Amen! and the more 'natural' that food, the better .. just as 'nature' intended.

[caballus]

No wonder they're laminitic. :) Whose horses are laminitic? What'd I miss?

[JSwan]

I think that's the point.


If it was- it's not only nothing special - it's SOP for an educated horseman. One of many many management methods available depending on location, forage availability, work, owner preference, and special needs of the horse.

No revelation.

And horses do eat grain as part of their "natural" diet. As foggybok already noted they eat the seed heads off warm and cool season grasses. Like any other animal they'll make a beeline for what tastes good - not necessarily what is good for them.

I grow most of my food, including meat- I'm not exactly unsympathetic to the claims of "natural is better". But health claims need to be backed up by evidence. If this horse was part of a study that would have helped.

[Androcles]

If it was- it's not only nothing special - it's SOP for an educated horseman. One of many many management methods available depending on location, forage availability, work, owner preference, and special needs of the horse.


Right. Except the first directive for a lamintic horse is GET HIM OFF GRASS. Subject him to a life of dry lot and muzzle.

[foggybok]

Now that's funny. Scientists testing food.

And why isn't a photo adequate 'proof' that the horse looks better? Go look at it in person if a picture isn't adequate representation of the horse's appearance. To make sure she didn't doctor the photo. Or something.

Actually, as I scientist, I did just that! And yes, there are many substances in different foods that have medicinal properties..... And a healthy diet IS good for you (or your horses). No doubt about it. But diet and herbs cure everything? Not likely.........

[Ghazzu]

FWIW, I have seen horses with serious medical problems as a result of eating red maple and acorns.

Perfectly "natural" stuff found in their environment.

[jaimebaker]

Right. Except the first directive for a lamintic horse is GET HIM OFF GRASS. Subject him to a life of dry lot and muzzle.

Because that's such a swell life for a horse. If a horse can't LIVE as a horse...what's the point? Besides our own selfishness of course.

[JSwan]

Right. Except the first directive for a lamintic horse is GET HIM OFF GRASS. Subject him to a life of dry lot and muzzle.

Not among the horsemen I know.

But you may want to read up on how much sugar is in fresh fruit. Stuffing a horse full of fresh fruit and thinking you're doing the horse a favor may be more dangerous than allowing it to graze a few hours a day.

If a diabetic was to follow the "eat fresh fruit and vegetables" advice he'd soon be dead. You have to know how much of various nutrients and energy sources you're putting into your body. Same with horses.

Believing something is healthy is not the same as the item actually improving or maintaining health. An apple may be a healthier choice - but it still has sugars in it. Sometimes more than a product considered unhealthy.

Which is why it's important to know what you're putting in your horse's body - whether it is "natural", "herbal", or whatever label someone has slapped on a product.

[foggybok]

When I dye my hair I look ten years younger.

Doesn't mean I'm ten years younger or that my health has improved.

She's claiming that her products improve health. In my book that means she should show some evidence. A photo is really nice to have but it isn't proof.

Here's a set of before and after photos too. These photos were 8 weeks apart taken when my TB came off the track a few years ago

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/foggybok/may4.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/foggybok/Wy1.jpg

Now everyone go out and buy Complete Advantage, alfalfa pellets and a bottle of corn oil! ;)

[JSwan]

Here's a set of before and after photos too. These photos were 8 weeks apart.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/foggybok/may4.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/foggybok/Wy1.jpg

Now everone go out and buy Complete Advantage, alfalfa pellets and a bottle of corn oil! ;)

Pretty!:)

[Androcles]

Not among the horsemen I know.

'well that certainly contradicts today's 'conventional wisdom', or at least what you'll hear on this board and other internet sites, and what many, many people follow.



But you may want to read up on how much sugar is in fresh fruit. Stuffing a horse full of fresh fruit and thinking you're doing the horse a favor may be more dangerous than allowing it to graze a few hours a day.

If a diabetic was to follow the "eat fresh fruit and vegetables" advice he'd soon be dead. You have to know how much of various nutrients and energy sources you're putting into your body. Same with horses.

Believing something is healthy is not the same as the item actually improving or maintaining health. An apple may be a healthier choice - but it still has sugars in it. Sometimes more than a product considered unhealthy.

Which is why it's important to know what you're putting in your horse's body - whether it is "natural", "herbal", or whatever label someone has slapped on a product.

I don't need to do any reading up on sugar. I am not allowed to have any sugar whatsoever in my diet so I know a thing or two about it. All sugar is not created equal, and some fructose, i.e. two pieces of fruit is allowable (for me), so for a horse that is what ten times more, and those without diet restrictions due to health problems, even more.

[deltawave]

Argh. For the FIFTEENTH time, no, nature didn't intend for horses to eat food out of bags. Or bananas, for that matter. I fail to see how one is better or worse than the other in terms of being "natural". That, precisely, is my point. I feed my horses all manner of unnatural things. It's not a feral horse world in my little corner of earth. :) But I don't go off about how bad it is for them, either. I leave that to others. Mine are A-OK. :)

[deltawave]

Besides an advertising and pseudoscientific buzzword, what, precisely, is a glyconutrient, please? Apparently the knowledge about these substances is "forbidden" according to most of the websites I'm able to find. Please enlighten us, o keepers of the forbidden secret. :lol:

[Androcles]

Now everyone go out and buy Complete Advantage, alfalfa pellets and a bottle of corn oil! ;)

There's big bucks to be made by Purina and Wesson in selling those products, so beware! :eek: And, you're probably a dealer.

[Mara]

FWIW, I have seen horses with serious medical problems as a result of eating red maple and acorns.

Perfectly "natural" stuff found in their environment.

They'll also eat perfectly "natural" - and deadly if you are a horse - ornamental yew.

[Androcles]

Argh. For the FIFTEENTH time, no, nature didn't intend for horses to eat food out of bags. Or bananas, for that matter. I fail to see how one is better or worse than the other in terms of being "natural".

For the SIXTEENTH time, it's in the processing.

[deltawave]

Processing was not my point at all, actually. You are free, however, to make it yours. I don't lose sleep over it. :) Mine was (once again) pointing out that feeding a horse a bowl of cut up veggies (organic or otherwise) is no more or less "natural" or "unnatural" than feeding them a bowl of oats (organic or otherwise) since in a natural state a horse will be very unlikely to eat much of either. Occasional mouthfuls, sure, but when compared to the VAST majority of the horse's daily ration, a small proportion of overall nutrients.

And as the OP has said she does not know what's in her hay, I was just wondering how one could modify/balance/amend whatever is lacking in that hay (via vegetable, fruit, nut, or other) without that information.

[Androcles]

Processing was not my point at all, actually.

Yeah no kidding. You're doing everything you can to obtusely miss the point. But processing is what distinguishes natural from unnatural.

[Mara]

Okay, how does the unprocessed sugar in fruit (and some fruit is LOADED) differ from the unprocessed sugars in the fresh spring forage that is verboten for laminitic/Cushing's/IR horses?

I'm not being a smartass - seriously. If some owners don't dare feed their IR horse an apple or carrot, then why a salad with apples and carrots and other high sugar fruits and vegetables?

[deltawave]

Again, YOU may use and define the term "natural" in any way you like. I have taken pains (over and over) to use the term very specifically in MY posts (and you will, I hope, give me leave to own my own thoughts and intentions, yes?) to indicate what a horse would eat in a wild/feral/unmanaged state. Of course the term can be used very broadly or narrowly to mean a huge variety of things. Except that's not how I am using it here, which I've stated I can't remember how many times. But you are of course free to misinterpret my posts however you like, and to insult me in the process, as well. :)


If some owners don't dare feed their IR horse an apple or carrot, then why a salad with apples and carrots and other high sugar fruits and vegetables?

I'm wondering this as well, except I tend to think the horrors people put themselves through at the thought of a single carrot are sort of silly, given the (proportionally) large amount of the dreaded S-word that is contained in even the best sort of hay. Ten or 20 grams of even pure sucrose is a drop in the bucket compared to 20 pounds of heaven-knows-how-much sugars in untested hay. Makes no sense to me whatsoever to worry about the former and ignore the latter. :confused:

[Androcles]

Again, YOU may use and define the term "natural" in any way you like. I have taken pains (over and over) to use the term very specifically in MY posts (and you will, I hope, give me leave to own my own thoughts and intentions, yes?) to indicate what a horse would eat in a wild/feral/unmanaged state. Of course the term can be used very broadly or narrowly to mean a huge variety of things. Except that's not how I am using it here, which I've stated I can't remember how many times.


So go right ahead and define things however you like, but then don't keep on insisting ad nauseum that your question of why something is or isn't natural according to your definition of it is not being addressed.

[Katy Watts]

But processing is what distinguishes natural from unnatural.

Really? this is news to a lot of us. So do you think it's OK to feed chopped up fresh sugar beets, but not chopped up sugar beet pulp that has the sugar extracted with water? So whole oats are OK, but crimped oats are not? Fresh alfalfa OK, but chopped and pelleted not? Does going through a baler make my native grass hay less natural than the dead native grass that feral horses eat through the winter?

[deltawave]

So go right ahead and define things however you like, but then don't keep on insisting ad nauseum that your question of why something is or isn't natural according to your definition of it is not being addressed. Sorry, you lost me there. :) What question was I insisting be addressed? :confused: Other than "what is a glyconutrient", that is. I'd really LIKE to know the answer to that one. :yes:

[BornToRide]

Really? this is news to a lot of us. So do you think it's OK to feed chopped up fresh sugar beets, but not chopped up sugar beet pulp that has the sugar extracted with water? So whole oats are OK, but crimped oats are not? Fresh alfalfa OK, but chopped and pelleted not? Does going through a baler make my native grass hay less natural than the dead native grass that feral horses eat through the winter?:D That's a good reply!

Not sure why "natural" is such a mystery to some folks, other than intentionally missing the point because they do not believe in it. Natural AS NATURE intended - like eating a species specific diet as much and as closely as possible!:)

[deltawave]

Hey BTR, news flash. I absolutely agree with your last post. :) Glad someone shares my definition in context here. :) Insofar as it is possible to feed a horse the way God/Mother Nature intended, I'm all for it. Hold the bananas. :lol: Lacking 100 acres of steppe grasses for each of them, alas, I am forced to compromise to some degree. And let's face it, so are we all. How we compromise is really what this is all about. :yes:

[foggybok]

Besides an advertising and pseudoscientific buzzword, what, precisely, is a glyconutrient, please? Apparently the knowledge about these substances is "forbidden" according to most of the websites I'm able to find. Please enlighten us, o keepers of the forbidden secret. :lol:

You mean you don't know? What kind of Dr are you? ;)

Here's what I found, sounds magical to me :)

"The body has naturally occurring enzymes that have the ability to convert carbohydrates back to glucose, their simplest form. So why the need to supplement? Glyconutrient proponents suggest that it is not the lack of sugar in our diets that is the overriding problem, but rather the types of sugars we are lacking. There are eight simple sugars, known as saccharides, considered necessary for our bodies to function optimally: fucose (not to be confused with fructose), xylose, glucose, N-acetylglucosamine, N-acetylgalactosamine, galactose, mannose, and N-acetylneuraminic acid. These sugars work with the fats and proteins in our bodies in order to produce a sort of communication device that exists on the outer membrane of every cell allowing cells to recognize and interact with each other. But in order for this device to work as a high functioning part of the entire bodily system, all eight sugars must be present."

Quoted from http://www.glyconutritionforlife.org/

[foggybok]

Pretty!:)

Thanks, he's my boy...got him off the track a few years ago on a 2 for 1 deal..... He was going to be my nice little hunter, but as he is deathly afraid of poles, he has turned into my hacking in the woods horse...... (down logs in the forest are fine, put one in an arena and it is a monster, especially if it is painted white.....)


Now back to the regularly scheduled drama... :)

[HappierQH]

I am astonished by the statements that place the originator on defense when she claims that her horse is getting better on a nutritional program designed to support her horse’s ailing body. Ever engaging is the debate that ensued over the most minute detail of the practitioner’s meaning behind the word “natural”. I think we are losing the forest for the trees. Can we return to the issue on hand? Is the program working or not? If so, why is it working?
I personally do not need a double-blind study to verify that a horse can and will improve on LavenderSage’s nutritional program. I have a horse that has returned to the show arena due to Lisa’s guidance.
My horse suffered during the years of clinically proven treatments, including a surgery that was performed successfully on Seattle Slew for the same condition that my horse had, Wobblers. When we asked the “experts” why my horse wasn’t getting better, they answered, very professionally, “Perhaps the initial diagnosis was wrong.” After admitting that perhaps I was misled in believing that they could cure my horse, did they refund the thousand and thousand of dollars paid for the elaborate, yet intrusive, tests and examinations. Nope!
When I took him off all the prescribed medicines and placed him on Lisa’s program, he recovered in 9 months. Is his recovery a pseudo-reality because it was not quantified? But I have pictures to provide it. Oh yeah, pictures can be doctored, so that is not good enough.
Sorry if I seem a bit befuddled by the skeptics. Even as my horse goes around a show pen, people state that it is just a ruse. I can accept their dismissal of someone’s anecdotal claims that a horse was cured by a woman who has 16 years of practical experience in equine nutrition. Therefore, I honor your statements. Just like I honor the skeptics against Albert Einstein, who had to have someone photograph a solar eclipse to prove his theory of general relativity. Lisa’s program will be scrutinized by the scientific community even though it has proven successful because that is what scientific minds do . . . analyze the facts. In the meantime, I commend those who use Lisa’s program and help their animals live a healthier and happier life!

[BornToRide]

I am astonished by the statements that place the originator on defense when she claims that her horse is getting better on a nutritional program designed to support her horse’s ailing body. Ever engaging is the debate that ensued over the most minute detail of the practitioner’s meaning behind the word “natural”. I think we are losing the forest for the trees. Can we return to the issue on hand? Unfortunately this is generally the train wreck that ensues by "traditionalists" who have to have scientific proof for anything or else it can't possibly be valid, no matter how many positive experiences others may have had with a "new" concept or idea.

It really is a shame because they are putting opportunities down before even giving them half a chance, not to mention the resulting unnecessary forum negativity and personal attacks that seems to have one main objective - suppressing undesired information that one does not agree with.

Sure, healthy skepticism is good, but so is being open minded to new ideas :)

[JSwan]

'well that certainly contradicts today's 'conventional wisdom', or at least what you'll hear on this board and other internet sites, and what many, many people follow.

I don't need to do any reading up on sugar. I am not allowed to have any sugar whatsoever in my diet so I know a thing or two about it. All sugar is not created equal, and some fructose, i.e. two pieces of fruit is allowable (for me), so for a horse that is what ten times more, and those without diet restrictions due to health problems, even more.

Well, maybe you shouldn't rely on BB's and internet chat for information. Some people pour copious amounts of oil on a cup of alfalfa pellets and call it the EPSM diet, too.

If you know how to manage your condition that doesn't mean these horse owners know how to manage their horses condition. All this "natural" hype gets ridiculous after a while.

Sure - a banana is "natural" but did you ever see a horse climb up a tree to get one? How about fresh fruit in the winter? See any ferals or wild horses eating lots of fresh green grass, fruit and veggies in the winter? Well - if you really wanted to manage your horse "naturally" you'd let starve in the winter. That's natural.

I'm not advocating the use of concentrates as the sole method of managing the domestic horse. I'm asserting that just as horse owners can kill their horses with too much nutrition, they can harm their horses with too little or from the wrong sources. There is no magic bullet.

Modern science doesn't have all the answers, that's for sure. But neither does "old-timey" type cures or newfangled "natural" approaches. The difference is that with modern science at least I know what is actually in the product and there is some analysis done of the nutritional content. I know what I'm putting into my horse's body.

These packages of herbs and potions - there is not only no proof they work, there is no way to know if they will cause harm to the horse or test in competition horses. And if the manufacturer is going to claim they treat, cure or prevent disease then they need to show some real proof.

Whether the product is manufactured in a lab or in someone's back yard - doesn't matter.

[LavSage]

Scientific proof is what most conventional minded people look for. Humans created science to understand the World around us using logic. Science is based on Scientific methods defined by Webster as "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and formulation and testing of hypotheses." Science is based on hypotheses which become theories. Theory meaning an "unproved assumption." If a theory can be proved it becomes fact. Most science is theory. People confuse theory for fact. What was believed to be scientifically true 100 years ago, 50 years ago, or even 5 years ago is constantly undergoing change because what is "scientifically true" is, in truth, just working theory. New data is constantly being collected that challenges the accuracy of theories. Science is fluid and ever changing. But, as we are human, it is difficult to go with the flow of this constantly evolving set of data. We want set answers. We want that which we can grasp and hold onto and count as steady and rock solid in a sea of change. That is not science.

Avocados, 7 years ago, were considered harmful and poison to horses. I wrote to a couple of these magazines explaining that I have been feeding my horses avocados for years and they are very healthy. However scientific studies had shown that Avocados were harmful to horses.
I explained the medicinal properties found in Avocados such as; containing Vit A, B,C and E, Potassium (higher than bananas) good for digestion, ulcers, antibacterial, antifungal, antioxidant, supports joints, repairs cartilage, and tendons, and fights inflammation.

Recently David Frisbie, DVM, PHD and colleagues from the Gail Holmes Equine Orthopedic Research Center at Colorado State University Found that Avacados have a tremendous effect on joints and was very beneficial for horses with osteoarthritis. So they created an avocado Soybean extract to create the newest and very effective joint product to grace the Equine nutritional supplement shelf.
Personally, I prefer just feeding them an avocado.

[JSwan]

Part of being a good horse owner is being a good steward of your land. If you want to grow healthy and nutritious pasture grasses you start with a soil test.

I can assure you the hay supplier is testing his/her soil - and fertilizing and liming. Probably with chemical fertilizers. Maybe biosolids.

If the horse is going to obtain most or all of its calorie and nutrition requirements from forage and hay you're going to want to test the soil and hay.

Well, if someone comes up with an 'at home' tester or instant test for testing hay at the feed & grain store then let me know. ;) Until then I have to rely on the 'health' of my horses and what, exactly, is puttin' the 'bloom' on them.

[deltawave]

Sure, healthy skepticism is good, but so is being open minded to new ideasAgain, the opposite of "skeptical" is not "open minded". The opposite of skeptical is closer to "gullible". And the opposite of open-minded is closer to "dogmatic". Gullible and dogmatic, hmmm, anyone here resemble those descriptions? :lol:

Scientific proof is what most conventional minded people look for. Humans created science to understand the World around us using logic. Science is based on Scientific methods defined by Webster as "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and formulation and testing of hypotheses." Science is based on hypotheses which become theories. Theory meaning an "unproved assumption." If a theory can be proved it becomes fact. Most science is theory. People confuse theory for fact. What was believed to be scientifically true 100 years ago, 50 years ago, or even 5 years ago is constantly undergoing change because what is "scientifically true" is, in truth, just working theory. New data is constantly being collected that challenges the accuracy of theories. Science is fluid and ever changing. But, as we are human, it is difficult to go with the flow of this constantly evolving set of data. We want set answers. We want that which we can grasp and hold onto and count as steady and rock solid in a sea of change. That is not science.

I'm not sure what a "conventional minded person" is, exactly, but this is very, very true. Which is why a scientist can NEVER be a dogmatic, clinging to a pet theory or hypothesis no matter what evidence is brought forward. And a good scientist embraces the evidence, even when it shoots holes in their belief system. And moves on, changing their mind based on available evidence. So when the available evidence comes along, I will change my mind about what constitutes an optimal diet for a horse. :) Until then, I applaud genuine efforts to make their lives better, celebrate the successes for the horses' and their owners' sakes, and shall keep my money in my pocket when it comes to "miracles". :) People have been proclaiming themselves "experts" (hell, I've been feeding horses for 30 years, too) for eons, and inventing a better mousetrap for the same amount of time. There are probably 5000 different "natural", "miracle", or "organic" diets out there--other than a sales pitch and some testimonials, how or why is this different than all the others, other than it being the latest one to be gushed over here?

In order to answer these questions, we need facts. Which you'll forgive me for also defining as what I realize is a four-letter word and very offensive to some: DATA. It never lies (although it can be tortured into virtually doing so by investigators, LOL) and stands up on its own feet without the need for ANY glossing or buffing. SIMPLE. Let's see some. :yes:

[caballus]

Not among the horsemen I know.

But you may want to read up on how much sugar is in fresh fruit. Stuffing a horse full of fresh fruit and thinking you're doing the horse a favor may be more dangerous than allowing it to graze a few hours a day. don't think 1 apple, 1 orange, 1 banana, 1 avocado is 'stuffing' the horse full of fruit. Let's be a bit reasonable here and not such an extremist. I've studied on diets for horses for years and years. I understand COMPLETELY how much sugar is in fresh fruits and vegetables. Thank you so much, tho, for your concern.

If a diabetic was to follow the "eat fresh fruit and vegetables" advice he'd soon be dead. You have to know how much of various nutrients and energy sources you're putting into your body. Same with horses. Well, looks as if my Cushings horse is not going to be dead this winter as planned if she keeps up with her improvement.

Believing something is healthy is not the same as the item actually improving or maintaining health. An apple may be a healthier choice - but it still has sugars in it. Sometimes more than a product considered unhealthy.

Which is why it's important to know what you're putting in your horse's body - whether it is "natural", "herbal", or whatever label someone has slapped on a product. Precisely! Do you KNOW what YOU'RE putting into YOUR horses' bodies. Do you know what, exactly, goes into the processed pellets/sweetfeed/vitamins/supplements that you give your horses? HOW DO YOU KNOW if the numbers on the tags and the back of the supplement containers are telling you the correct information? How do you KNOW that the manufacturers of horse food and supplements are telling the truth and not just snaboozling you into *believing* you're feeding the best for your horse? HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR SURE?

You don't.

And that's why thousands of dogs and cats died last year. And that's why hundreds of horses a year get sick and maybe die from some 'mistake' the feed manufacturer made. And maybe ... that's part of the reason so many horses are now getting "Cushings" and "IR" and Laminitis and more at such young ages. At least now I KNOW what I'm feeding my horses. And I KNOW what I'm feeding my dogs and cats.

I'm sick and tired of seeing and hearing of these young babies who are so damned SICK! Arthritis, Cushings, Insulin Resistant, chronic Laminitis, Heaves, Hives, Sweet Itch ... young horses just starting out their lives. I'm TIRED of being called to see foundered 4 year olds who are so obese that I fear for their lives yet they're on such a restricted diet that it wouldn't sustain a 60# dog never mind a 1200# horse. I'm tired of being called to fix a 4 and 6 year old who look as if they're 40 years old and have "Cushings" so badly they were euthanized in SPITE of thousands of dollars spent on every conceivable, known to man, supplement, diet, restrictions, etc. I'm TIRED of trying to console the owner who just had to bury her 10 year old friend because 'nothing worked'. Can't you see there's something very wrong with this?

I've watched my beautiful grey mare go downhill for the last few years IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING I was doing for her. Vet #1 said this; Vet #2 said that; Expert #3 said the other -- and my mare has been slowly dying. Quickly dying over the last year 1/2! I listened to the vet who said "late stage now" and there was nothing more we could do. I've watched an "alpha" mare, and yeah, she's a true 'alpha', go from being a proud, regal, spirited, gorgeous horse to a horse who was dull, lifeless, and *old* - very old. I've watched her and agonized with her as the other horses pushed HER away from her food. I've seen the pain and the despair in her eye. I've agonized over her weariness. My thoughts were well, yeah - no sugars, no grass, no this or that but if I'm going to euthanize her before winter then she's going to ENJOY her last months and if it works, great!

ITS WORKING - the fruits, the vegetables, the grass - ITS WORKING!

And now, she has LIFE in her again. She has SPIRIT and FIRE in her eye again. She's taking back her alpha status with the others. She trots up for her food. Her coat has gone from feeling like a swine's back to a soft, silky fur again. Her hooves are no longer shelly and peeling and weak. The fat pads in her eye 'hollow's has disappeared; the fat pads on her shoulders have smoothed out; the swelling in her lymphangitic leg has reduced by over half and she can even FLEX HER PASTER again after it being 'frozen' for over a year!

And best of all she whinnies at me again in the mornings ... bright and eager and ready to start a new day again. She trots up to see my grandchildren again and nickers and nibbles on their heads. She's soft and kind and willing again. She CAN MOVE again.

She has JOY in life again.

And you would begrudge this? You would dare tell me that I'm killing my horse with the improper diet and care?

You must be telling me that my horse is lying to me then ... she's not REALLY improving. She's just 'faking it' ... she'll soon be dead from the fruits and the vegetables - from the sugars.

I think not. No - I think we're ALL starving our horses by prohibiting the very foods they were created to eat. That's what I think now.

[caballus]

In order to answer these questions, we need facts. Which you'll forgive me for also defining as what I realize is a four-letter word and very offensive to some: DATA. And SOMETIMES, even in the face of DATA, we have what the HORSE, himself, says.

Somehow, I don't think Misty gives a hoot or a holler what your DATA says.

[caballus]

The difference is that with modern science at least I know what is actually in the product and there is some analysis done of the nutritional content. I know what I'm putting into my horse's body. Yep -- and so thought all the dog and cat owners who were feeding them the best manufactured foods (and still are) yet had to watch their beloved pets die a painful death.

Yep, modern science. It's the best ...

And God said, "Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing grass, which is on the earth, to produce seed, and every tree, which has in itself the fruit of the seed that it has produced--it will be food for you--" Genesis 1:29

[JSwan]

Oh for God's sake. Hysterical and melodramatic much? I'm not "daring" to call you anything, and I'd suggest you hang out with more educated horsemen if the only ones you know have obese, foundered horses.

And if you can't stand the thought of people questioning the validity of a claim- then don't start thread claiming you've found some sort of miracle cure and trying to hawk it.

If you're happy with the improvement in your horse, that's great. I think I wrote that at least once but I'll write it again since you seem enamored of your martyr complex.

And I also wrote at least once that I'm not unsympathetic to the concerns about processed foods and modern production methods. But the other extreme isn't all its cracked up to be, either.







I'm sick and tired of seeing and hearing of these young babies who are so damned SICK! Arthritis, Cushings, Insulin Resistant, chronic Laminitis, Heaves, Hives, Sweet Itch ... young horses just starting out their lives. I'm TIRED of being called to see foundered 4 year olds who are so obese that I fear for their lives yet they're on such a restricted diet that it wouldn't sustain a 60# dog never mind a 1200# horse. I'm tired of being called to fix a 4 and 6 year old who look as if they're 40 years old and have "Cushings" so badly they were euthanized in SPITE of thousands of dollars spent on every conceivable, known to man, supplement, diet, restrictions, etc. I'm TIRED of trying to console the owner who just had to bury her 10 year old friend because 'nothing worked'. Can't you see there's something very wrong with this?

I've watched my beautiful grey mare go downhill for the last few years IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING I was doing for her. Vet #1 said this; Vet #2 said that; Expert #3 said the other -- and my mare has been slowly dying. Quickly dying over the last year 1/2! I listened to the vet who said "late stage now" and there was nothing more we could do. I've watched an "alpha" mare, and yeah, she's a true 'alpha', go from being a proud, regal, spirited, gorgeous horse to a horse who was dull, lifeless, and *old* - very old. I've watched her and agonized with her as the other horses pushed HER away from her food. I've seen the pain and the despair in her eye. I've agonized over her weariness. My thoughts were well, yeah - no sugars, no grass, no this or that but if I'm going to euthanize her before winter then she's going to ENJOY her last months and if it works, great!


And you would begrudge this? You would dare tell me that I'm killing my horse with the improper diet and care?

I think not. No - I think we're ALL starving our horses by prohibiting the very foods they were created to eat. That's what I think now.

[Katy Watts]

HOW DO YOU KNOW if the numbers on the tags and the back of the supplement containers are telling you the correct information?

Each state in the US has laws put forth by the state Ag Dept. Then inspectors go around and probe feed in various warehouses, and test them against the guarantee on the label. Violations are part of the public record. Many states post violation online.
So. I test my hay, and then can plug into a ration balancing program how much of everything I get from my hay, and how much of a ration balancer I need to provide missing trace minerals. Did you ever do that?

Ration balancers have made a huge difference for a lot of horses, very similar to the result seen in your horse. If you want to provide vitamins and minerals via produce, go for it. But a lot of us are doing just fine using a ration balancer, some flax for omega 3 and limited grazing.
Have you had your horse tested for PPID? Do you intend to have her tested again to assure us that she is now cured? Are you suggesting that this diet removes the need for pergolide?

[caballus]

Each state in the US has laws put forth by the state Ag Dept. Then inspectors go around and probe feed in various warehouses, and test them against the guarantee on the label. Violations are part of the public record. Many states post violation online.
So. I test my hay, and then can plug into a ration balancing program how much of everything I get from my hay, and how much of a ration balancer I need to provide missing trace minerals. Did you ever do that?

Ration balancers have made a huge difference for a lot of horses, very similar to the result seen in your horse. If you want to provide vitamins and minerals via produce, go for it. But a lot of us are doing just fine using a ration balancer, some flax for omega 3 and limited grazing.
Have you had your horse tested for PPID? Do you intend to have her tested again to assure us that she is now cured? Are you suggesting that this diet removes the need for pergolide?She was never tested - only Dx'd by clinical symptoms. I will, yes, have the vet out again to do an exam and will post the finding.

I what you or anyone else is doing is working for you then fine! I posted to share an alternative that is working for US when nothing else WAS working. I was treating the 'symptoms' and not the horse.

I would much rather have a 'cure' for my horse than have to 'manage a disease'. I don't have 'diseases' in my barn - I have horses. If a horse is sick then there's something wrong with the horse. I like to find out where the insufficiencies/imbalances are and work to stabalize the HORSE; not treat the 'disease' and suppress the symptoms. Symptoms are nothing more than a body trying to rid itself of an unwelcomed condition - a 'disease'. Simply suppressing the 'symptoms' (treating the symptoms) without addressing the cause of the symptoms is, IMHO, rather futile and only causes more issues down the line (as in Misty's case.)

[deltawave]

Precisely! Do you KNOW what YOU'RE putting into YOUR horses' bodies. Do you know what, exactly, goes into the processed pellets/sweetfeed/vitamins/supplements that you give your horses? HOW DO YOU KNOW if the numbers on the tags and the back of the supplement containers are telling you the correct information? How do you KNOW that the manufacturers of horse food and supplements are telling the truth and not just snaboozling you into *believing* you're feeding the best for your horse? HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR SURE?The same could be said about your hay, which you admit you never have analyzed.

I would much rather have a 'cure' for my horse than have to 'manage a disease'.

Gee, what a novel thought. The rest of the world is so far behind you in this line of thinking. :rolleyes: Trouble is, and I hate to be the one to break it to you, there is no "cure" for a vast majority of diseases and maladies. Only management. Life, after all, is 100% fatal. But you won't get the miracle workers telling you THAT. I wish you the best with your mare. But maybe if your orbit included a few farms where owners knew how to take proper care of their horses and didn't let them GET obese in the first place, you'd "open your mind" to the reality that not every horse on earth is "diseased". How depressing it must be to see nothing but "sick babies" all the time. Not including my own place (no sick babies) I regularly visit half a dozen large farms close to me for one reason or another and there's not a fat, laminitic or crippled one at any of them. How can this be?

[Liberty]

...I test my hay, and then can plug into a ration balancing program how much of everything I get from my hay, and how much of a ration balancer I need to provide missing trace minerals...


What ration balancing program do you use? Can it be accessed/purchased online?
Thanks!

[deltawave]

Liberty, check out www.feedxl.com, it's pretty neat. I use a sort of homemade spread sheet that I've been plugging numbers into for years, and by now of course I can pretty much calculate in my head what a basic feed program is for a given horse, but this new Feed XL thing is slick. :yes:

[Ghazzu]

Regarding avocados, my understanding is that the toxicity is primarily in the leaves, bark, and seed rather than in the "meat" of the avocado.

Hence the warnings to livestock owners.

There are also differences in toxicity between the smooth skinned and cobbled varieties.



if you are offering your horse an avocado with the pit removed, then aren't you "processing" it?

[caballus]

But maybe if your orbit included a few farms where owners knew how to take proper care of their horses and didn't let them GET obese in the first place, you'd "open your mind" to the reality that not every horse on earth is "diseased". How depressing it must be to see nothing but "sick babies" all the time. Not including my own place (no sick babies) I regularly visit half a dozen large farms close to me for one reason or another and there's not a fat, laminitic or crippled one at any of them. How can this be?Delta (and JSwan) -- My 'orbit', as you so sarcastically note, includes sick horses cause that's what I do - I treat pathological hooves and work with emotionally damaged horses. So, in the process of working with the hooves and teaching/working with the horses I try to share and educate the owners. Precisely what I've shared here - only instead of spouting off a bunch of technical terms and telling people what they *should* do - I've posted an experience. I've posted what I did, I've posted photos to back up and its simple - its vegetables. No money to be made there. No 'magic potion' ... no 'snake oil' ... just plain ole veggies. If you or anyone else has a problem with the way my horse has responded to this then that's an issue YOU have.

Don't you have a heart to save or something? Afterall, you say you are a Cardiologist but man, you must be fixin' them up pretty quick cause you seem to be here alot of the time.

[Katy Watts]

She was never tested - only Dx'd by clinical symptoms. I was treating the 'symptoms' and not the horse.

I would much rather have a 'cure' for my horse than have to 'manage a disease'.

You have no idea if your horse really has Cushings, yet you are now claiming she is cured? Did this diet cause improvement in her laminitis?

Perhaps it would less misleading if you changed the title of this thead to 'those struggling with scruffy coat and sad eyes"?

[Liberty]

Liberty, check out www.feedxl.com, it's pretty neat. I use a sort of homemade spread sheet that I've been plugging numbers into for years, and by now of course I can pretty much calculate in my head what a basic feed program is for a given horse, but this new Feed XL thing is slick. :yes:

Thank you DW! I'll go check it out. :)

[HappierQH]

Perhaps it would less misleading if you changed the title of this thead to 'those struggling with scruffy coat and sad eyes"?

What kind of intellectual banter is that? Are you purporting that a horse should be euthanized because it has a scruffy coat and sad eyes?

[BornToRide]

Scientific proof is what most conventional minded people look for. Humans created science to understand the World around us using logic. Science is based on Scientific methods defined by Webster as "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and formulation and testing of hypotheses." Science is based on hypotheses which become theories. Theory meaning an "unproved assumption." If a theory can be proved it becomes fact. Most science is theory. People confuse theory for fact. What was believed to be scientifically true 100 years ago, 50 years ago, or even 5 years ago is constantly undergoing change because what is "scientifically true" is, in truth, just working theory. New data is constantly being collected that challenges the accuracy of theories. Science is fluid and ever changing. But, as we are human, it is difficult to go with the flow of this constantly evolving set of data. We want set answers. We want that which we can grasp and hold onto and count as steady and rock solid in a sea of change. That is not science.

Avocados, 7 years ago, were considered harmful and poison to horses. I wrote to a couple of these magazines explaining that I have been feeding my horses avocados for years and they are very healthy. However scientific studies had shown that Avocados were harmful to horses.
I explained the medicinal properties found in Avocados such as; containing Vit A, B,C and E, Potassium (higher than bananas) good for digestion, ulcers, antibacterial, antifungal, antioxidant, supports joints, repairs cartilage, and tendons, and fights inflammation.

Recently David Frisbie, DVM, PHD and colleagues from the Gail Holmes Equine Orthopedic Research Center at Colorado State University Found that Avacados have a tremendous effect on joints and was very beneficial for horses with osteoarthritis. So they created an avocado Soybean extract to create the newest and very effective joint product to grace the Equine nutritional supplement shelf.
Personally, I prefer just feeding them an avocado.Well said :) A lot, if not most, of the diseases are caused by an inappropriate diet that render and individual weaker and more susceptible to disease.

[caballus]

You have no idea if your horse really has Cushings, yet you are now claiming she is cured? Did this diet cause improvement in her laminitis?

Perhaps it would less misleading if you changed the title of this thead to 'those struggling with scruffy coat and sad eyes"?Where did you get the notion that this horse has laminitis? She doesn't. She has LYMPHANGITIS; not laminitis. And more than one vet Dx'd the Cushings. MOST vets will use clinical symptoms to dx Cushings as the numbers fluctuate, do they not, with the seasons? The symptoms of Cushings are classical and readily visible.

[Ghazzu]

What kind of intellectual banter is that? Are you purporting that a horse should be euthanized because it has a scruffy coat and sad eyes?


That's a bit of a leap, isn't it?
I didn't see any reference to euthanasia in the post you're quoting.

[caballus]

That's a bit of a leap, isn't it?
I didn't see any reference to euthanasia in the post you're quoting.I believe she was referring to my original post (and maybe some sequential ones) that it was recommended and hubby and I had agreed that this mare be euthanized before the next winter comes in.

[JSwan]

if you are offering your horse an avocado with the pit removed, then aren't you "processing" it?

According to the USDA definition of processing, yes, she is processing it. Altering a foodstuff in any manner is considered processing aka "processed" food.

Peeling an apple = processed. Feeding an apple whole = unprocessed. Cutting the apple into mouth sized bits =processed.

Removing the toxic part of a foodstuff to feed the nontoxic portions = processed.

What's funny about this is that the OP and the other "natural" advocates are really freakin' lucky they're not feeding cattle or hogs or chickens and touting anything as "natural" - because FSIS/USDA would crucify them.

[caballus]

According to the USDA definition of processing, yes, she is processing it. Altering a foodstuff in any manner is considered processing aka "processed" food.

Peeling an apple = processed. Feeding an apple whole = unprocessed. Cutting the apple into mouth sized bits =unprocessed.

Removing the toxic part of a foodstuff to feed the nontoxic portions = processed.

What's funny about this is that the OP and the other "natural" advocates are really freakin' lucky they're not feeding cattle or hogs or chickens and touting anything as "natural" - because FSIS/USDA would crucify them.Excuse me? that would be if I were to be SELLING them for human consumption. I can feed whatever I damn well please on my own PRIVATE property as long as I'm not abusing or neglecting my own animals. Don't even let's get started on government control. BTW? The chickens get fed veggies, too ... oh, is that not "allowed"? So do my goats, my dogs, my cats, my doves ... in fact, I feed my dogs table scraps!! And ... RAW MEATS! HORRORS! (Actually, I lied - I don't feed table scraps - I cook extra portions for them when I can, of our own dinner.) so now ... gonna 'report' me to the USDA for some cockamamie idiocy? Good Glory!

This thread has gone BEYOND ridiculous. I cannot believe that we're even discussing the 'validity' of feeding vegetables and fruits to herbivores! I cannot believe that so many people have been so brainwashed as to think that fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds and other foodstuffs are not viable foods for our animals. Good Lord! What the hell kind of education did you people get, anyway? Incredible - absolutely incredible.

[BornToRide]

Caballus, it really isn't worth your valuable time to convince such skeptics here of something new to try or at least consider it. No worries, there will be countless others here who will read it and be more open minded about trying something new, especially if it carries very low to no risk to try for the benefit of their horses :)

Thank you very much for the information you shared. :)

[JSwan]

Um - yeah - that's what I wrote. FSIS is the food safety section of the USDA - and is the one responsible for approving most of the labeling requirements for food. Including livestock.

Which is why I said you were lucky you and LS didn't fall under their jurisdiction.

Settle down or you're going to burst a blood vessel. The hysterics are really over the top, too. No one has said giving a horse an apple or a piece of pumpkin is some sort of unnatural horror. They're taking exception to the CLAIMS being made. Claiming to cure disease is a pretty big and important claim. The conditions you claim this program treats or cures are killers.

And I don't know what is so novel about allowing a horse to eat grass.


Excuse me? that would be if I were to be SELLING them for human consumption. I can feed whatever I damn well please on my own PRIVATE property as long as I'm not abusing or neglecting my own animals. Don't even let's get started on government control. BTW? The chickens get fed veggies, too ... oh, is that not "allowed"? So do my goats, my dogs, my cats, my doves ... in fact, I feed my dogs table scraps!! And ... RAW MEATS! HORRORS! (Actually, I lied - I don't feed table scraps - I cook extra portions for them when I can, of our own dinner.) so now ... gonna 'report' me to the USDA for some cockamamie idiocy? Good Glory!

This thread has gone BEYOND ridiculous. I cannot believe that we're even discussing the 'validity' of feeding vegetables and fruits to herbivores! I cannot believe that so many people have been so brainwashed as to think that fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds and other foodstuffs are not viable foods for our animals. Good Lord! What the hell kind of education did you people get, anyway? Incredible - absolutely incredible.

[Ghazzu]

Caballus, it really isn't worth your valuable time to convince such skeptics here of something new to try or at least consider it. No worries, there will be countless others here who will read it and be more open minded about trying something new, especially if it carries very low to no risk to try for the benefit of their horses :)

Thank you very much for the information you shared. :)

Right.
Because everyone knows none of us skeptics would ever consider giving a fruit or vegetable to our horses....

[BornToRide]

Um - yeah - that's what I wrote. FSIS is the food safety section of the USDA - and is the one responsible for approving most of the labeling requirements for food. Including livestock.

.Which explains the lousy and obtuse labling of most horse feeds.......:)

[HappierQH]

Gwen, I have to agree with BornToRide.
I really appreciate the information that you have presented to those who need an alternative method to save their horses' lives. I tried countless "conventional" methods and none of them worked for my horse. LavenderSage's program brought back the vitality in my horse. He is no longer just a lawn ornament. He has a promising career in the Paint World.
When the arguments against Lisa's program is over the use of the word "processed", I can't help but to appreciate that the skeptics are floundering for offensive tactics against the claims that you are presenting.

[BornToRide]

Right.
Because everyone knows none of us skeptics would ever consider giving a fruit or vegetable to our horses....
Ghazzu, you are smarter than this - that's not the point of the discussion here :)

[JSwan]

Which explains the lousy and obtuse labling of most horse feeds.......:)

Actually -the FSIS requirements I refer to are mostly concerning marketing/labeling claims.

Horse feed tags do label their ingredients - but they also list any claims made.

No label can be approved if it contains the words "natural", or "free of.... " unless documentation and protocols have been submitted to and approved by the USDA. Some programs require certification and inspection - at a tremendous cost to the producer.

These "herbal" and "natural" claims made by supplement manufacturers aren't supported - and they're taking advantage of gaps in the USDA labeling requirements - which does pose a risk to the horse owner because they don't actually KNOW what is in the product - and it could test if they use the horse in competition.

You people are a piece of work - thinking that there is some vast conspiracy out there to deprive you of your vitamins. There isn't. Supplement sellers are just taking advantage of gaps in programs and jurisdiction to sell products that they don't have to prove even work - and may actually cause harm. No one knows. Even herbs can interact with other medications or cause harm to the animal.

When you buy food or food for your horses - the labels of organic, natural or free from hormones or free of whatever have actual documentation behind those claims. When you buy supplement A or B or herbal X you have absolutely NO idea. There is no verification that the product actually contains the substances it says it does, there is no assurance that the products are in the amounts listed - there is really nothing but claims without any backup documentation.

And before y'all go into weepy hysterics again please know that I raise grass-fed beef and pastured pork. I have to PROVE that the animals have been raised in that manner. I'm not stuffing them full of "herbs" and calling the meat "natural", and I'm sure as hell not putting that on the label - I'd go to jail right quick.

I'd think you'd be as concerned about what you're putting into your horses to treat their diseases.

[HappierQH]

I'd think you'd be as concerned about what you're putting into your horses to treat their diseases.

Did I miss something? Isn't the point of Gwen's proclamination about feeding whole foods support your above inquiry? Isn't it self-evident that you are putting an apple in your horse when you give them an apple?

The use of herbs has not come into play yet. Her testimony states that her horse has not ingested any herbs but is feeling better.

[Liberty]

Where did you get the notion that this horse has laminitis? She doesn't. She has LYMPHANGITIS; not laminitis...The symptoms of Cushings are classical and readily visible.

And in many cases (from what I've read), laminitis IS one of the symptoms of Cushings. Your thread title also specifically contains the term "laminitis", and your webpage on Misty refers to her IR turning into full-blown Cushings. As with Cushings, many (if I dare say, most) cases of IR are not detected until the horse becomes laminitic and/or, heaven forbid, founders.

Then BTR replied with:

Caballus, it really isn't worth your valuable time to convince such skeptics here of something new to try or at least consider it. No worries, there will be countless others here who will read it and be more open minded about trying something new, especially if it carries very low to no risk to try for the benefit of their horses :)...

"Low to no risk" for "others" who read this thread and decide to forgo their vet's and nutritionist's advice by opting to switch over to feeding their laminitic/foundered IR and/or Cushings horse high-NSC foodstuffs? IMO, that scares me to think of the possible repercussions.

I know this is was a thread started about feed, but there are those other very important factors to consider when dealing with metabolically-challenged horses, like meticulous hoof care and appropriate exercise.

I hate to think of a neophyte owner lurking on this discussion and thinking all s/he needs to do is put out a bowl of diced veges, maybe sprinkle with some unknown mixture of "special" herbs, turn out on some nice pasture, and ailing horse is going to make a miraculous recovery. That could be a recipe for disaster. :(

So, I'm glad to see others with differing views on this topic weighing in, but I wish there was a bit less bad attitude all around from all sides.

JMO (and I probably should have just remained quiet, but from what I've seen on Cushings/IR discussions, there are folks out there desperate to try anything, especially something that sounds so "easy").

Carry on. :)

[appychik]

You have no idea if your horse really has Cushings, yet you are now claiming she is cured? Did this diet cause improvement in her laminitis?

Perhaps it would less misleading if you changed the title of this thead to 'those struggling with scruffy coat and sad eyes"?

I was gonna say something too about the lack of a confirmed by bloodwork diagnosis.

Heck for years my horse has been one that everyone thought had Cushings. Nope. Was checked and confirmed negative. Did surpise us though by having Insulin Resistance. Have the bloodwork to back both of those tests... cause you can't really treat something unless you know for sure you're treating the correct "thing".

[JSwan]

Actually - I'm commenting on several things. Her post that indicates the program will treat laminitis or other conditions, her link to a site selling products and claiming the they cure disease, and the insistence that a particular program is "natural" and free from "processing" when it isn't.

I don't really care what y'all choose to feed your horses - it's none of my business. I take exception to claims that a program or product treats or cures disease when no proof can be provided.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that the weeds in my pasture cure cancer - and any claim I make on any product I sell has been verified by the USDA - so the consumer knows what they are purchasing. (for better or worse)

Who verifies your claims?

ETA - Liberty makes excellent points in her post and it's worth considering.

[merrygoround]

Interesting how those trees in the background take such a drastic change from winter-esque looking to green leafy-ness in just 3 weeks! :no:

Aha! You noticed too. Amazing how a horse with a dirty full winter coat, cleaned up.;)

[HappierQH]

I was gonna say something too about the lack of a confirmed by bloodwork diagnosis.

Heck for years my horse has been one that everyone thought had Cushings. Nope. Was checked and confirmed negative. Did surpise us though by having Insulin Resistance. Have the bloodwork to back both of those tests... cause you can't really treat something unless you know for sure you're treating the correct "thing".

I was in a similar predicament, needed to know why my horse was exhibiting incoordination. He was put through a battery of tests and examinations. Conclusion - Cervical Vertebral Malformation. Cure - Fuse Vertebra (C4 -C5)

When the surgery didn't work. Conclusion - Original diagnosis not right. Cure - Try something else.

When the something else didn't work. Conclusion - Undetermined. Cure - Euthanasia.

Same with my Weimaraner. X-ray's pointed to OCM @ the age of 6 months. Cure - Steroids

When my dog started showing side effects from the medicines. Conclusion - Immune-deficiency. Cure - Euthanasia.

Currently both my horse and dog are alive and well. Conclusion - Healthy Cure - Nutritional and balanced diet.

There is something behind a diet that helps "heal" animals. It is worth checking out but I agree that one should do their homework. I did! I have two healthy horses, two healthy dogs, a healthy cat . . .

[caballus]

"Low to no risk" for "others" who read this thread and decide to forgo their vet's and nutritionist's advice by opting to switch over to feeding their laminitic/foundered IR and/or Cushings horse high-NSC foodstuffs? IMO, that scares me to think of the possible repercussions. So, what happened to PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY? What happened to people being responsible for and OWNING his/her own decisions? You're not responsible for anyone else's decisions any more than I am yours.

I did not claim that Misty is "cured" ... I merely pointed out the transformation that has taken place over a very short period of time with just ONE change made - that of her diet. I stated what I was feeding her. I stated her condition. I stated her past and I stated what my decisions were and are. I've posted photos ... it is MY testimony. If someone decides to change something he or she is doing with his/her own horse then that's not my responsibility - that's the responsibility of THAT PERSON.

I could say the same thing you said with the pergolide, the thyrol-L, the herbs, the antibiotics, the medicines ... with all the medicines there are pages worth of contraindications and warnings and side effects - so I choose to use something anyway and then my liver fails ... whose "fault" is that? The drug company's? The Doctor's? Order a HOT coffee from McDonalds or Dunkin' Donuts ... if you spill it on your lap and get burned, whose fault is that? The company's cause the coffee was hot?

PERSONAL accountability - PERSONAL responsibility - PERSONAL choices - all reap some sort of consequences that fall to the INDIVIDUAL.

You don't agree with what I posted? Well, I'm sorry. That's too bad. It's just merely 'an account' of what has happened; what has transpired.

It is what it is. Take it or leave it. YOUR choice. YOUR decision. YOU OWN your own choices.

[caballus]

Aha! You noticed too. Amazing how a horse with a dirty full winter coat, cleaned up.;) Bingo ... a full winter coat in June. What does that speak of? All the others were shed out already.

[BornToRide]

"Low to no risk" for "others" who read this thread and decide to forgo their vet's and nutritionist's advice by opting to switch over to feeding their laminitic/foundered IR and/or Cushings horse high-NSC foodstuffs? IMO, that scares me to think of the possible repercussions.
:) I guess I do give owners more credibility than you do. I would hope the owners, with the right advice from their vets, which unfortunately sadly is often lacking too, will know that feeding a high NSC diet to a laminitic/Cushings horse significantly increases health risks!

[deltawave]

Personal accountability on the part of a health practitioner (self-styled or otherwise) also implies producing documentable, replicable, solid results which are on the record for public perusal and (oh my) criticism. And I truly am sorry to beat this dead horse, but a website and a string of carefully selected testimonials is not a substitute. Where are the failures, the ones in whom this treatment protocol failed, the really difficult cases that did not respond? Where are the precautions, the list of things to avoid, the warning signs that the program isn't working? There are none, you say? Then where is the Nobel prize? A foolproof, 100% effective "cure" for something like "Cushings, Laminitis, or Other" is surely worthy of it.

The onus is not on the consumer here, it's on the person selling the product. Of course, the consumers of quackery like this don't tend to give a hoot about legitimacy or proof--they just move on to the next miracle cure, cough up another $49.99 for a 90 day supply (and if you order now we'll DOUBLE your offer!) and ride that miracle roller coaster yet again. There must be some sort of thrill in it, because people keep on finding that next miracle. And people keep on selling it to them. :no:

[caballus]

Of course, the consumers of quackery like this don't tend to give a hoot about legitimacy or proof--they just move on to the next miracle cure, cough up another $49.99 for a 90 day supply (and if you order now we'll DOUBLE your offer!) and ride that miracle roller coaster yet again. There must be some sort of thrill in it, because people keep on finding that next miracle. And people keep on selling it to them. :no:

Yep, veggies are truly the epitomy of quackery. Yep -- they surely are.

[deltawave]

Stick with your veggies and I do wish you the best with them, Gwen. :) I am referring to the "for profit" part of the equation. Given the pluripotent nature of the "program" referenced in the original post, I'm guessing these miracles don't come cheap, although the prices are not listed.

[grayarabs]

I think the salad idea is a great one, but I would be hesitant about some of the fruits.
That being said, Gwen, I think I remember you add oils to the salad. If I understand correctly, combining oil or some kind of fat to carbs and sugars helps reduce the glycemic effect. Wonder if that plays in here.
Gwen, BTW, lovely little mare. I hope she continues to improve.

[Kolsch]

Interesting how those trees in the background take such a drastic change from winter-esque looking to green leafy-ness in just 3 weeks! :no:'

Sorry Caballus, I'm with chaos on this one. I live about two weeks behind you as far as foliage development in the spring goes, and your before pics look like what we had in early May.

[grayarabs]

Further, have often wondered about the diet of the Arabian horse in the Middle East.
Have read that some were fed dates and camel's milk.

[caballus]

I think the salad idea is a great one, but I would be hesitant about some of the fruits.
That being said, Gwen, I think I remember you add oils to the salad. If I understand correctly, combining oil or some kind of fat to carbs and sugars helps reduce the glycemic effect. Wonder if that plays in here.
Gwen, BTW, lovely little mare. I hope she continues to improve. yes oil is added. About 1/4 cup of safflower oil that has a large clove of garlic and a sprig of rosemary added to the oil to steep. Thank you. I surely hope she continues to improve also.

[Auventera Two]

This is a really interesting topic. I read about it on the other forum and have been doing some thinking and studying for a couple of days on this.

I think it's MOST important to settle on what works FOR THAT HORSE, and to heck with the rest of the world. Seriously. It's beyond me why a person should care what someone else does with their horse as long as the horse is healthy and happy and sound and the owner is getting the results they want. :confused:

I think there are MANY ways to arrive at the same end result (soundness, health, and happiness.) I use chaste tree berry and the strasser trim for Libbey. It works. Pergolide did NOT work. Pergolide almost killed her. She went completely off feed and water, laid down out behind the barn and would only get up for short bouts, then she was down again. I took her off the pergolide (she was only getting 1 mg. daily, and I started it very slowly) She slowly improved. I switched her to chaste tree berry instead. She's doing great with that and the new trim.

She gets a handfull of Wellsolve L/S with the CTB, a joint supplement, and a general vit/min supplement. She's doing great, but if I found something "better" to further improve her health, I'd be willing to try it.

But on the other hand, my Arab stallion Andre eats 7 pounds of grain a day (oats/omolene 200/boss mix), soaked beet pulp, 24/7 pasture, and free choice alfalfa hay. He is a very active, high energy horse who is in work, and this program works beautifully for him.

Here he was the day I brought him home:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/An2.jpg

And here he was 9 weeks later:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/AndreJuly309.jpg

I don't think that feeding "hard grain" is killing Andre. :confused: Looks to me like he's improved exponentially.

Gwen's horse has also improve exponentially.

I won't be shy in saying that I'm not convinced that the "salad" would be an appropriate feed for Andre. The horse needs CALORIES and lots of them. He is turned out on a large acreage and he moves almost continually.

Feeding "all natural" no sugar, no grain diets might be fine for the pasture puff or light pleasure horses, but high powered athletes? I don't think so. When a horse has to do an un-natural job (endurance, show jumping, eventing, etc.) you have to feed an unaturally high nutrient value feed.

My Arab mare (the little black one in the background of the one picture), can do 25 miles in 2:45, which means cantering nearly the whole thing. Her recoveries and soundness scores are excellent. A horse can't work like that on some yams and grass hay. They need hard calories and fat, and lots of it.

The salad might be a good thing to try for Libbey. I'm thinking on it. :cool:

But I think the salient point is to choose what works FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. You have to always keep an open mind and be willing to change things when they aren't working anymore.

People get WAY too hung up on wanting published studies, nutrition degrees, and "proof" of something before they try it. The fact is, when your back is up against a wall and you have nothing else to lose, you'll try something, even if it isn't published in a peer reviewed journal. ;) When you're in those shoes, you'll understand why we try the things we try.

I don't need scientific data and peer reviewed articles. All I need is for the HORSE to tell me if it works or not. There is no peer reviewed articles and scientific data on the type of trim Libbey gets or the chaste tree berry she eats. But the HORSE tells me that it works, and that's good enough for me.

[Auventera Two]

Further, have often wondered about the diet of the Arabian horse in the Middle East.
Have read that some were fed dates and camel's milk.

I too have read about the camel's milk. I've also read that lactating mares were sometimes milked and that milk given to the working horses because of its high nutrient content.

In all truth, it's not "natural" for a horse to graze on grass (as we know it) for 24 hours a day either. Wild horses consume various weeds, bark, sticks and twigs, berries, brush and leaves, seed heads, flowers, and available nuts and fruits.

My horses have access to stand under two huge White Pines, and they have eaten the pine needles up as far as they can reach.

There is almost nothing "natural" about the way we keep or feed horses. We can do what keeps them healthy, but that doesn't mean it's natural.

[grayarabs]

I envy those of you with your horses on your own property. When you have to board out -on many of these things - you are just SOL.
I think the activity level of the horse is key. The more they move around, interact with other horses, investigate things etc the better. Just standing around for hours on end to me is a recipe for disaster.
For my horse to get any fresh "greens" - other than the carrots I provide - I have to take him off the property - well - out the front gate. Of course I worry about the allergens, molds and sugars and laminitis - but I can tell my horse is "starved" for the things that grow in the wild outdoors.
I will never forget years ago riding him on the creek trail and he stopped at a tree and started eating the leaves. I researched - the tree was an elm - safe for horses - ie not toxic. How/why he honed in on that tree I will never know. Perhaps he remembered
elm trees from a pasture before I got him.

[deltawave]

If there had been a 50 pound bag of sweet feed beside the tree, he'd probably have chosen that, though--I don't give horses much credit for knowing what's good for them . . . :)

[BornToRide]

If there had been a 50 pound bag of sweet feed beside the tree, he'd probably have chosen that, though--I don't give horses much credit for knowing what's good for them . . . :)Yeah, well what do you get when you give a kid a plate full of string beans and one with a chocolate pudding? What do you think 99% of the children will reach for? ;)

[grayarabs]

DW - you missed the point. Riding through lots of different kinds of trees my horse stopped at the elm.

[deltawave]

Perhaps it was deep seated instinct, perhaps he likes the taste of elm, perhaps it was chance. I've seen horses go after red maple and other nasty things they shouldn't eat--IMOit's better not to draw too many conclusions about what animals choose to ingest. :)

[Ghazzu]

Further, have often wondered about the diet of the Arabian horse in the Middle East.
Have read that some were fed dates and camel's milk.

They were/are, but certainly not in bucketfuls.
I was in Syria some years back, and the government had declared the asil horse to be a national treasure.
They were offering owners a feed ration in return for registering the horses with the state.

You could tell pretty easily the ones that had registered, because they were far less ribby than most of the others.

But again, most of the Middle East is not lush pasture...

[Androcles]

Here's a set of before and after photos too. These photos were 8 weeks apart taken when my TB came off the track a few years ago

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/foggybok/may4.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/foggybok/Wy1.jpg

Now everyone go out and buy Complete Advantage, alfalfa pellets and a bottle of corn oil! ;)

I think the difference here is that this horse was off the track. They usually don't come off the track in good condition and it's no mystery to the average knowledgeable horseperson how to get weight etc on a horse from the track.

I think the difference between your case and the one(s) being offered as cases in this thread are that these others have nagging medical conditions, been in caring homes for considerable amounts of time with most likely obsessive attention and effort expended on getting them healthy from conditions that they just haven't been able to get help for and yet the horses are not thriving or are even declining.

I don't really think you can compare an 'off the track' case study with the above situation.

[Androcles]

Well, maybe you shouldn't rely on BB's and internet chat for information.

I am not relying on this information. I certainly don't adhere to it. I am describing what is commonly believed and done (right now). And that is, that most people will not put their laminitic/Cushing's horse on any grass because it is verboten. Let's just see a show of hands here of people with horses with the above, that let their horses graze.

[BornToRide]

Raising hand....my mini will go out with a grazing muzzle, so will quite a few other horses I know with Cushings and laminitis :)

[Androcles]

'

Sorry Caballus, I'm with chaos on this one. I live about two weeks behind you as far as foliage development in the spring goes, and your before pics look like what we had in early May.

You should have had the horse hold up a dated newspaper with a memorable headline (like, Michael Jackson dies or soemthing) to prove when it was taken.

:winkgrin: :D :lol:

[Androcles]

Raising hand....my mini will go out with a grazing muzzle, so will quite a few other horses I know with Cushings and laminitis :)

i guess it needs to be specified for the obtuse - no grazing muzzle. :rolleyes:

[deltawave]

I use a grazing muzzle so my cresty pony CAN graze. It is a matter of limiting calories and intake--given the opportunity, she will graze for 23 hours and 59 minutes a day, stopping only to drink. :lol: The muzzle allows her to stay out while I'm at work and eat slowly. (dare I say, as Nature intended?) :lol: :lol: Anyhow, if I'm home and plannng to stick around, sure I'll let her out on the grass with no muzzle. But only for a couple of hours, during which time she probably eats as much as she would in 12 hours of muzzled foraging. I have never seen such a DETERMINED eater! :D

I believe grass is good for horses, but this animal in particular is not worked much and struggles with weight, so her intake has to be restricted.

Is putting on a muzzle considered "processing"? :p

[Androcles]

Is putting on a muzzle considered "processing"? :p

only if it's put on the poster.

[Androcles]

and, for the love of all things holy, can we pleeeez revert to the old-timey, natural, original spelling and pronunciation of - vegetables. ??????

[Katy Watts]

Raising hand. My PPID/IR mare and her IR daughter both graze properly managed green grass. Both properly diagnosed. I am putting all their 8 years of hormone tests on an Excel spreadsheet.
http://www.safergrass.org/mydiet.htm

They can only handle a couple hours. Testing before and after 2 hours of grass shows a pretty high insulin response, although baseline is not too bad.
The younger mare is the most sensitive, and just lately she showed me she can handle one insulin surge per day, but not two. Was a bit off for a few days last week, but bounced back quickly and is now back to cantering willingly. So back to a couple hours at dawn when conditions allow growth to keep sugar levels low. Some say I am crazy to allow grazing at all, but I feel that some green healthy grass is better than no grass.

It is genetic in my horses. I have met the younger mares aunt and cousin and they were/are both cripples by middle age, living on stressed overgrazed unfertilized grass 24/7. Mine are doing far better clinically, although their blood work is still scary.

[JSwan]

Let's just see a show of hands here of people with horses with the above, that let their horses graze.


Raises hand. He's doing well.

And my old mare that foundered many years ago- she ate grass too.

She didn't develop laminitis from grass/carb overload - and she still ate grass.

Grass isn't the devil. A compromised horse can graze and have something resembling a normal life if it's managed well.

A muzzle does not prevent the animal from eating or drinking - it limits how much grass/forage the horse can consume - moderating intake.

[Auventera Two]

vegetables. ??????

Hey, I'm with you on that one. You will NEVER hear or see me speak or write/type "veggies." :rolleyes: :dead: Or for that matter, "comfy" or "jammies" or "tennies." I despise baby talk.

Katy - I've followed your posts for a long time, and understand that I am NOT criticizing you, but just making an observation.........for all the precisely managed diet and exercise that your horses get, they sure seem to have a lot of problems. :confused: You posted photos of your mare's feet on horseshoes.com and it was downright scary. You have shown pictures of edema lines and cresty necks and you've talked multiple times about scary blood work and bouts of laminitis and flare ups. So pardon me for being ignorant, but if all this perfectly managed grazing and scientifically engineered grass were the ticket, wouldn't these problems be resolved?

[caballus]

Hey, I'm with you on that one. You will NEVER hear or see me speak or write/type "veggies." :rolleyes: :dead: Or for that matter, "comfy" or "jammies" or "tennies." I despise baby talk. I'm gonna ignore that, A! *GRIN* Hey, after raising 4 kids to their 40's and now grandchildren, gotta get the vocab right for them!

.........for all the precisely managed diet and exercise that your horses get, they sure seem to have a lot of problems. :confused: You posted photos of your mare's feet on horseshoes.com and it was downright scary. You have shown pictures of edema lines and cresty necks and you've talked multiple times about scary blood work and bouts of laminitis and flare ups. So pardon me for being ignorant, but if all this perfectly managed grazing and scientifically engineered grass were the ticket, wouldn't these problems be resolved?My concerns and point exactly. If it ain't workin' then something needs to be CHANGED! And that's why I chose to change Misty's diet. The change seems to be working extraordinarily well.

[deltawave]

I would actually raise that question in anyone who put themselves forward/advertised themselves as a horse expert--why all the sick, unhealthy horses? Particularly ones who market that expertise to the masses. I go to visit a farm of a potential trainer or boarding manager and I want to see fit, glossy, healthy, sound, lean animals. That is the resume' that speaks the loudest to me.

[Katy Watts]

Katy - I've followed your posts for a long time, and understand that I am NOT criticizing you, but just making an observation.........for all the precisely managed diet and exercise that your horses get, they sure seem to have a lot of problems.

Yes, it seems my management program works better for other horses than my own. They have the most difficult forms of incurable conditions. Actually being able to eat improved strains of grass grown under a worst case environmental scenario seems a huge victory to some people who understand the whole picture. When I lay out all the history and blood work on my horses, the veterinary experts in EMS are surprised they are still alive, much less eating grass for a couple hours and being ridden. There is no doubt in my mind that this genetic mutation is not survivable under average management practices. The older mares PPID started at age 12. Her daughter started foundering at age 5. The early onset cases are known to be extremely difficult to manage. The fact they are as good as they are clinically is quit surprising to the experts. If I was able to cure them completely, and let them eat grass all day, Safergrass.org would never have happened. I do this work with very little funding. If there were no incentive to help my own horses, I would not be doing it. So if anyone is benefiting from my continued involvement, you should be glad I have not been able to cure my own horses.

[caballus]

I would actually raise that question in anyone who put themselves forward/advertised themselves as a horse expert--why all the sick, unhealthy horses? Particularly ones who market that expertise to the masses. I go to visit a farm of a potential trainer or boarding manager and I want to see fit, glossy, healthy, sound, lean animals. That is the resume' that speaks the loudest to me.If you're addressing that question to me, I am called in to "fix" what others have not been able to do. The horses *do* return with healthy hooves, minds and bodies. I'm usually called in as a 'last resort'. Would love to, instead, be called in before its a matter of 'last resort'! But, as many can attest to here, there are alot of people out there too afraid to try something 'out of the traditional/norm' until there are no options left.

[BornToRide]

Yes, it seems my management program works better for other horses than my own. They have the most difficult forms of incurable conditions. Actually being able to eat improved strains of grass grown under a worst case environmental scenario seems a huge victory to some people who understand the whole picture. When I lay out all the history and blood work on my horses, the veterinary experts in EMS are surprised they are still alive, much less eating grass for a couple hours and being ridden. There is no doubt in my mind that this genetic mutation is not survivable under average management practices. The older mares PPID started at age 12. Her daughter started foundering at age 5. The early onset cases are known to be extremely difficult to manage. The fact they are as good as they are clinically is quit surprising to the experts. If I was able to cure them completely, and let them eat grass all day, Safergrass.org would never have happened. I do this work with very little funding. If there were no incentive to help my own horses, I would not be doing it. So if anyone is benefiting from my continued involvement, you should be glad I have not been able to cure my own horses.This is usually how we gain more knowledge, by experiencing the suffering first hand and trying to make it better. :)

[HappierQH]

Yes, it seems my management program works better for other horses than my own. They have the most difficult forms of incurable conditions. Actually being able to eat improved strains of grass grown under a worst case environmental scenario seems a huge victory to some people who understand the whole picture. When I lay out all the history and blood work on my horses, the veterinary experts in EMS are surprised they are still alive, much less eating grass for a couple hours and being ridden. There is no doubt in my mind that this genetic mutation is not survivable under average management practices. The older mares PPID started at age 12. Her daughter started foundering at age 5. The early onset cases are known to be extremely difficult to manage. The fact they are as good as they are clinically is quit surprising to the experts. If I was able to cure them completely, and let them eat grass all day, Safergrass.org would never have happened. I do this work with very little funding. If there were no incentive to help my own horses, I would not be doing it. So if anyone is benefiting from my continued involvement, you should be glad I have not been able to cure my own horses.

Your proclamation of your horses’ survival is similar to my horse’s case. A year after being on LavenderSage’s nutritional program, a reputable veterinarian examined him thoroughly. She pronounced his recovery as amazing, too!

I understand that my statements are merely words written in a forum that welcomes all opinions; be them theoretically, factual or merely observations BUT they offer the same conclusion. The experts are shocked at the results of Turner’s recovery when the evidence indicated otherwise.

LavenderSage has countless examples of animals that have a healthy glow, sound body & mind, optimum weight, no chronic illnesses, no acute illnesses, etc. Everyone should go visit one of her clients and see for themselves the picture of perfect health in their animal(s). I offer this suggestion because pictures have been debarred as evidence.

[caballus]

I think that's part of the differences that are being exhibited here ... the difference between 'management' and 'cure'. I'm hoping to CURE Misty ...

[BornToRide]

Yes, conventional treatment tends to be mostly focused on managing a condition rather than exploring the root cause and eliminating it. I mean how much training do doctors and vets get when it comes to diet! Very little, yet correct diet goes such a long way towards health. IMO it should be the main focus of each doctor's visit in critters that have chronic health conditions :)

[LavSage]

I think that's part of the differences that are being exhibited here ... the difference between 'management' and 'cure'. I'm hoping to CURE Misty ...


She is healing now, she will be one of many who is cured by my program, and hopefully more and more horses will be helped through seeing and witnessing her complete recover..she has already exceeded beyond anyones expectation...:)

[chancellor2]

Yes, conventional treatment tends to be mostly focused on managing a condition rather than exploring the root cause and eliminating it. I mean how much training do doctors and vets get when it comes to diet! Very little, yet correct diet goes such a long way towards health. IMO it should be the main focus of each doctor's visit in critters that have chronic health conditions :)


Hmmm, I might like to know how you know that doctors/veterinarians get very little nutrition training.....Is this another one of your facts that is really just opinion?

[HappierQH]

I think that's part of the differences that are being exhibited here ... the difference between 'management' and 'cure'. I'm hoping to CURE Misty ...

Thank you Gwen for pointing out the difference between my sitation and Katy's.

Turner is cured! Not only is the symptoms of his incoordination GONE but the latest x-ray showed no evidence of a quarter-size lesion on right front pastern (palmer), which existed prior to starting him on the complete nutritional diet.

My other horse, Fletcher, who had no afflications but as a teenaged QH had the normal (well I thought they were normal for a 16 year old) bone "clicks". He, to, improved! I was astonished by the improvements. To name a few, the "clicks" vanished, his posture improved so much that he gain a 1/4" in height, his already shiny coat now shimmers in the shade, his eyes are clear and the best part . . . his mind has relaxed. All outer signs of a horse that feels good from the inside.

Misty is on the same path as Turner and Fletcher! I really respect your efforts in helping her.

[LavSage]

This is usually how we gain more knowledge, by experiencing the suffering first hand and trying to make it better. :)

I agree. This is the very reason I developed this unique nutrition therapy program. Many criticize it because it is unfamiliar.. I did not learn this from anyone, because no one has thought of this approach of feeding horses to teach. So I have become a teacher in this way of feeding and providing an alternative solution.

This is my gift I am bringing to the horse community. A gift that has helped many. I am not here to prove anything to anyone or push my program on anyone who is against this whole concept. I believe one should only do what they are comfortable with and believe in.

I know everyone is doing what they feel is best for their horses and it is that passion and love for the horses that bring about anger for fear something new may be more harm than good.


What people think me is besides the point.. it's not about me.. it's about the horses and the program I provide, which has resulted in nothing but positive outcome 100% of the time. If it didn't, I would never stand behind it or try to educate people on this concept. I care too much about my clients horses and my own..

[LavSage]

Hmmm, I might like to know how you know that doctors/veterinarians get very little nutrition training.....Is this another one of your facts that is really just opinion?

Actually that is a fact.. Born to Ride is correct.. I have many veterinarian clients who have confirmed that they have one semester of nutrition and does not go into much detail. They are educated in medicine..

[Androcles]

This is my gift I am bringing to the horse community. A gift that has helped many. I am not here to prove anything to anyone or push my program on anyone who is against this whole concept. I believe one should only do what they are comfortable with and believe in.



You might find people more receptive if you were more forthcoming with information on your website, e.g. the very limited info about what you provide, 'click here to order The Blend', - would someone be expected to order it after reading only what is on your website?; how are 'anti-oxidants' supposed to kill foreign invaders? I thought they scavenge free radicals, and the lack of information about yourself is disturbing.

I agree. This is the very reason I developed this unique nutrition therapy program.


as I said earlier my equine nutritionist recommended nearly an identical program for my horse more than 4 years ago, so it is not really unique.

[HappierQH]

This is my gift I am bringing to the horse community. A gift that has helped many. I am not here to prove anything to anyone or push my program on anyone who is against this whole concept. I believe one should only do what they are comfortable with and believe in.


I wish I could find the right words to state my sentiments to your program. However, I quote Albert Einstein to convey my thoughts:

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.”

I am thankful that you have taken the initiative to design a nutritional program for horses that no one has mastered before.

I realize that because of its success many will try to duplicate it. For the sake of the animal and its owner's, I hope the duplication is accurate. Of course, consultation with you will be the optimum situation for those who want better and faster results.

[HappierQH]

You might find people more receptive if you were more forthcoming with information on your website, e.g. the very limited info about what you provide, 'click here to order The Blend', - would someone be expected to order it after reading only what is on your website?; how are 'anti-oxidants' supposed to kill foreign invaders? I thought they scavenge free radicals, and the lack of information about yourself is disturbing.



as I said earlier my equine nutritionist recommended nearly an identical program for my horse more than 4 years ago, so it is not really unique.

I believe your statement(s) is/are too obtuse.

LavenderSage can clearly be unique because as you mentioned she is not forthcoming with the "exact" information. So you admit that you don't have the right tools to measure its uniqueness. Besides you use the word "nearly" an identical program. You should make an adjustment in your last statement that reads . . . so it is possibly not unique.

Additionally, Lisa St. John has always been open with me about the ingredients in her blend. Just ask her . . . she has nothing to hide! Unless you have ulterior motives?

If you have the inclination and the time to learn about her program, I believe your opinions might weigh more on this forum.

[LavSage]

You might find people more receptive if you were more forthcoming with information on your website, e.g. the very limited info about what you provide, 'click here to order The Blend', - would someone be expected to order it after reading only what is on your website?; how are 'anti-oxidants' supposed to kill foreign invaders? I thought they scavenge free radicals, and the lack of information about yourself is disturbing.



as I said earlier my equine nutritionist recommended nearly an identical program for my horse more than 4 years ago, so it is not really unique.

Yes, I agree with you.. my website is still in the works. I have changed web designers because much of what was agreed to be done with it was not. We are working on that now.. Thank you for your suggestion..it is appreciated.

Just to give you a better understanding of my program..

I have been doing this for 16 years professionally. my program is designed for each individual horse.. I prescribe a diet plan for that horse and an herbal blend which is ever changing to make sure all requirements are met.
This program changes throughout the horses life.

I am an intuitive and have been since a child. I have been able to see illness in animals and through nutrition and herbs been able to assist in their recovery.

I had brain cancer and the doctors gave me two months to live. ( I am sure many of you wish the doctors were correct:))

Through raw whole food nutrition and herbs I made a full recovery.. The cancer was a blessing.. it helped me have a better understanding of the importance of nutrition..

I am happy to hear someone else is promoting something like this.. I wasn't aware of it. I am sure your horses are doing well from it..:)

[Androcles]

I believe your statement(s) is/are too obtuse.
that's amusing coming from someone who obviously struggles to express themselves.

LavenderSage can clearly be unique because as you mentioned she is not forthcoming with the "exact" information. So you admit that you don't have the right tools to measure its uniqueness. Besides you use the word "nearly" an identical program. You should make an adjustment in your last statement that reads . . . so it is possibly not unique.
no i don't 'admit' anything. whole foods, vegetables fruits, herbs. Nope, not unique.

If you have the inclination and the time to learn about her program, I believe your opinions might weigh more on this forum.
i think Lisa is a better spokesman for herself than you are; otoh i've never been able understand why it is always up to the consumer to do all the legwork of finding out these things. it's like there is something to hide.

[Androcles]

I have been doing this for 16 years professionally. my program is designed for each individual horse..

If each horse gets a unique program then how can you sell 'The Blend'?

[HappierQH]

i think Lisa is a better spokesman for herself than you are; otoh i've never been able understand why it is always up to the consumer to do all the legwork of finding out these things. it's like there is something to hide.

Your opinion holds truer than mine when you state that Lisa is a better spokesman for herself.

[ChocoMare]

Hmmm, 12 pages of reading. Interesting and thought-provoking.

Caballus: glad the "program" worked for your mare.

But I think A2 summed it up: You do the best you can for your horse with the best you have available.

For my "metabolic" Percheron it meant reading Katy Watts' info and seeing how/if I could make it work for my self-care boarding situation. Alas, it can't. I have no control over the fertilizing. I have no control over the mowing. No control over the grass grown there period. Not my land. It is what it is.

So the firm decision was made for Tank based on what I could control--grazing. Her body told me what it could and could not handle. Just 45 minutes of grazing and she'd come up sore. So I control it by her living in a large dirt paddock, replete with various hay slow-feeders (small mesh nets, nibble hay racks, as well as hay strewn on the ground) during the warm months. Tried a grazing muzzle in assorted configurations but I could not risk her getting the sucker off and over-grazing. She'd come up laminitic :(

Soooo, to provide the nutrition she needs (oh yeah, she has EPSM too), she gets plain/soaked beet pulp shreds (shock horror :eek: ...something "processed"), EquiPride (greater horrors...more processed!!! :eek:) and Cool Calories. It was LMH who suggested the EquiPride, not in any sales pitch or with any psuedo-science it-will-cure-her marketing bend, but as a kind "Hey, it couldn't hurt to try."

And you know what? She's turned around 100% in the 18 months since the hard, strict diet control. No laminitis in that time, no signs of Cushings, etc.

Is she cured? Heck no. Just like no human diabetic is cured just by diet control. Instead, her metabolism is managed to the best of my ability, using what I have at my disposal and a bit of common sense chucked in.

Oh and, LavSage: I, too, would like to know where you got your degree in Equine Nutrition. Seems that question has been missed. Thank you.

[LavSage]

If each horse gets a unique program then how can you sell 'The Blend'?

I evaluate each horse to determine what herbs is needed in the blend.. Each blend is unique..

When you go to an herbalist. They do not place everyone on the same herbs.. They provide a program consisting of herbs to target what is needed for each individual and is changed as needed..

This is what i do for the horses. Although the disease and illness may be the same I have found a unique blend is needed for each individual horse to recover..

[Ghazzu]

I evaluate each horse to determine what herbs is needed in the blend.. Each blend is unique..

When you go to an herbalist. They do not place everyone on the same herbs.. They provide a program consisting of herbs to target what is needed for each individual and is changed as needed..

This is what i do for the horses. Although the disease and illness may be the same I have found a unique blend is needed for each individual horse to recover..

Do you have any training as an herbalist, it is it entirely an intuitive process ?

[Androcles]

Then what is meant by this (from your website):

Order LS Equine Performance Blend© Today!

I evaluate each horse to determine what herbs is needed in the blend.. Each blend is unique..

When you go to an herbalist. They do not place everyone on the same herbs.. They provide a
program consisting of herbs to target what is needed for each individual and is changed as needed..

This is what i do for the horses. Although the disease and illness may be the same I have found a unique blend is needed for each individual horse to recover..

[HappierQH]

ChocoMare loved your thoughts in message #229.

There is no doubt that we all do the best that we can for our animals.

As mentioned in my previous (albeit brief) accounts of my efforts; both allopathic and homeopathic, processed and unprocessed, to return the vitality to my horse, I had success with LavenderSage’s nutritional program. Like you I am sticking with what has worked for me and my horses. And, justifiably, I voice my testimony towards the program that has had success.

I hope my decorum to present the positive instead of hyping on the negative doesn’t diminish the truth behind my support of her nutritional program. If truth be told, I miss the days when I could order a bag or bottle of supplements, scoop it into a bucket and been done with the nutritional concerns for my horse. However, my adherence to insure convenience (although the supplements were very expensive) led an animal to its possible demise.

So, not knowing Lisa St. John at the time, I asked for expert advice. The veterinarians did not suggest a nutritional program to “fix” the problem. They recommended surgery. I followed their instructions for 4 years, because it kept evolving, after each treatment failed, into other diagnosis. Not all of the treatments were based on guesses. Most were born out of extensive testing and examinations. I truly believed that their licensed recommendations would manage my horse’s condition. I guess that I am one of those gullible owners that many people are trying to protect from outlandish promises.

Thankfully, I had enough fortitude to believe in nutrition. So after countless hours of research, I contacted LavenderSage. I am so glad that I did! I now have a horse that was cured of many ailments. I had it confirmed by a veterinarian so I was insured that I wasn’t hurting him while riding him again. Not only am I riding him but we successfully showed this past May.

So although I may be only one voice . . . I intend to voice my experience. It may not be practical for all those concerned BUT it does work. Turner is living proof.

[BornToRide]

I am an intuitive and have been since a child. I have been able to see illness in animals and through nutrition and herbs been able to assist in their recovery.

I had brain cancer and the doctors gave me two months to live. ( I am sure many of you wish the doctors were correct:))

Through raw whole food nutrition and herbs I made a full recovery.. The cancer was a blessing.. it helped me have a better understanding of the importance of nutrition..

I am happy to hear someone else is promoting something like this.. I wasn't aware of it. I am sure your horses are doing well from it..:)We should listen more to our intuition but it has been so brainwashed out of us. :(

Could not agree more with you - I am currently going through a similar process with adrenal fatigue, a condition that is generally not even recognized by many doctors and often misdiagnosed as anxiety or depression or both.

Glad you overcame your illness and are doing so well so you can pass your knowledge on :)

[RG Equestrian]

Hmmm, I might like to know how you know that doctors/veterinarians get very little nutrition training.....Is this another one of your facts that is really just opinion?

That is in fact.....A Fact. Vet school covers the tip of the iceberg when it comes to nutrition. Vets cannot be expected to specialize in everything. There is a complete post graduate area of study when it comes to equine nutrition that people can get their masters and PhDs in. Vets frequently consult with these equine nutrition experts.


However, Even within the specialized field of equine nutrition, no attention is paid to the link between feed and immune system health, which is why high temperature proccessing and preservatives are still rampant in most feeds.

[BornToRide]

chancellor 2 KNOWS very well that's a fact. It has been re-hashed numerous times here on various occasions. She chooses to ignore this fact because it does not fit into her paradigm or else is simply baiting again because she likes me so much. :)

[LarkspurCO]

I'd like to see the data on glycemic response after feeding a bucket of fruit, compared with a "processed" sugar. Although I'm struggling to think of a horse feed containing high-fructose corn syrup. Usually they are sweetened with molasses. Isn't molasses "natural"?

I've offered all sorts of fruits and vegetables to my horses, and most of them they flat out rejected. I have one horse that will turn and run away from an apple, though he loves carrots.

My horses eat fresh grass and weeds. Right now they are going after the seed heads, dandelion, toad flax and thistle flowers. Why would broccoli and kiwi fruits from Safeway be better, assuming they'd actually eat them (which they wouldn't)? They also eat hay cured naturally under the sun, which is tested and balanced with nasty, commercially processed stuff. I do use herbs from time to time.

I have always read that avocados are toxic to horses, so I fail to see the sense in turning horses loose in an orchard. Not to mention the damage they would do to those lovely trees.

[caballus]

I'd like to see the data on glycemic response after feeding a bucket of fruit, compared with a "processed" sugar. Although I'm struggling to think of a horse feed containing high-fructose corn syrup. Usually they are sweetened with molasses. Isn't molasses "natural"? Natural, yes, but processed from the sugarcane plant. It's a by-product extracted during the sugar cane refining process. The sugar cane is crushed to remove the juice which is then boiled vigorously. Machines utilize centrifugal force to extract the sugar crystals from the syrup. The remaining syrup becomes molasses. It is interesting to note, too, that molasses is used to make yeast ... and yeast (internal) has been stated to be a major health issue with horses and humans today! It's also used to cure tobacco from what I've read.

I have always read that avocados are toxic to horses, so I fail to see the sense in turning horses loose in an orchard. Not to mention the damage they would do to those lovely trees.You and someone else - someone else mentioned she's never seen a horse pick an orange or banana out of a tree. Well, down in FL if there are trees in the pastures/paddocks then you can be sure to witness horses 'picking oranges' or avocados or grapefruit or bananas right out of the trees. Or Kiwi or Starfruit, etc. Here in New England they'll pick at the peaches, pears and apples or whatever other fruit is within reach or falls to the ground. Bark, twigs, fruit, roots - all are 'forages' - the mainstay of the 'natural' horse's diet. We're just so accustomed to believing that processed foods, 'enriched, enhanced' etc. is the best for us that we've lost sight of original foods that contain everything we need to subsist and exist - healthfully.

Wanna know about processed food? Get a pack of Twinkies or Hostess Cupcakes and don't open it. See how long it will last without going bad. ... Guess what? They WON'T go bad. You can keep that pkg. of Twinkies or Cupcakes for years and years and they'll still be as 'soft and fresh' as the day they were made. That's pretty scary! Compare a loaf of fresh, 'natural' baked bread to Wonderbread. The fresh, nautral bread will go stale and moldy within 3 days or less - the other will stay for weeks. Again, pretty scary to me! The fresh, natural bread is a LIVING thing ... filled with 'healthy' LIVE yeast and LIVE enzymes, etc. that feed our bodies while the 'enriched' is just a dead product preserved with all sorts of chemicals that have nothing, nutritionally, to offer.

Our bodies, our horses' bodies, are comprised of LIVING organisms all meant to be 'fed' by other living organisms. What happens when living organisms aren't fed or are not fed properly? They get sick and die. They also react to the additives and preservatives that are added into foods and grains and not always in a positive manner. One of our daughters cannot eat processed, institutional foods (think school foods) for any length of time without getting what's known as 'endocrin toxicity' ... nasty - first thing is her skin turns grey, literally, and then she goes hyperglycemic reactions so badly her room used to REEK of that sweet, sickly sugar smell just from her body odor. She also gets so depressed that she can't get out of bed. Her body gains 30 - 50# in a matter of 3 -6 weeks. Once off the institutional food her body then LOST that weight, that sickly pallor and she was able to, once again, function as a normal, healthy teenager in just a matter of weeks. Now, as an adult, she regulates her own diet and keeps herself in excellent condition eating whole foods that are not chemically 'enhanced' and lots and lots of fresh vegetables. One of our sons (our older one) also is highly reactive to processed foods and will get very ill. He's also extremely hyperglycemic. As long as he watches what he eats - he's fine. The first thing he grabs for if he knows he's going into a hyperglycemic reaction is a glass of freshly squeezed orange juice and a banana. Gets him right back where he belongs! But if he eats a candy bar or just a couple of cookies? He's off the wall within a matter of mins. He used to get so bad before we had him tested as a child that one could, literally, watch his skin turn into big, bright red patches, his eyes would get glassy and then he would start the confusion and extreme hyperactivity; literally, out of his mind. Nasty, nasty stuff. Orange juice and a banana. Fresh fruit as the antidote. Our other son is reactive to DC red and yellow food dyes. Our other daughter struggles with her weight and depression when she eats 'processed' food - just not to the extreme as her sister but in a more reactive emotional way than her sister.

So, now that I'm recalling this with my human kids (you guys got me thinkin' here) it only makes more sense to me about the processed sugars and foods we feed our horses. We're mammals - they're mammals; our bodies can react in the same manner as one anothers'.

Puttin' two and two together here ...

[Mara]

LavenderSage can clearly be unique because as you mentioned she is not forthcoming with the "exact" information. So you admit that you don't have the right tools to measure its uniqueness.

Not to be hideously nitpicky (too late), but unique is unique. One of a kind. There are no "degrees" of uniqueness, and therefore it cannot be measured no matter what tools you use. A common mistake.

Carry on.:winkgrin:

[deltawave]

I'll fully endorse the notion that doctors, at least, receive very little formal nutritional training in medical school. I haven't heard anything to make me think that vet school is a whole lot different.

However. :) I didn't learn my trade in medical school, really. That's like learning your ABC's--you have to go a lot farther before you're really "literate". Postgraduate training DOES involve nutritional education, and just because something isn't in a formal curriculum doesn't mean one can't educate oneself on their own. Many people do so.

That said, I'd be most curious to know what, exactly, constitutes a formal education in equine nutrition these days? Is it a bachelor level thing, masters level, PhD? Any or all of the above? Where are the best programs in equine nutrition, and is there a standard that is applied to graduates? A board exam? Licensure?

Where does the current thread's guru stand in terms of formal education on equine nutrition? What program, what sort of degree, what level of certification? If I'm going to be considered uneducated because I didn't get hard-core nutritional training in medical school, I want to know why that makes me or any of the other people on COTH (many of whom I would consider VASTLY more expert than myself) less qualified than someone whose credentials are equally if not more vague, undeclared, or self-granted.

Or, in short, if we're to believe that this program is nothing short of miraculous (making a claim of "curing" something like the chronic diseases discussed here surely qualifies), what are the credentials of the person doing the curing? Specifics highly encouraged--I'm a facts type of person. :)

[Auventera Two]

I place a high value on formal education because I think it is a really good starting point. That's why I chose to do hoof care/trimming school and certification rather than just winging it on my own. But a piece of paper with some letters on it isn't everything. In some cases, it means basically nothing.

I've had a vet stand in my barn aisle and tell me that I should never feed my foundered horse alfalfa because it is "too rich." Instead just give her "grass hay" and she'll be fine.

Then I've also stood in front of another vet who explained the differences in the types and concentrations of sugars in different types of hays based upon growing conditions, maturity when cut, and soil health. They were both DVMs.

Which one clearly has gone above and beyond to educate herself in equine nutrition? Just some letters really doesn't mean anything. But having no letters isn't always safe either. I guess you just have to judge each expert on an individual basis.

[caballus]

Haven't even finished reading the rest of your post, Delta but this was worth repeating,

and just because something isn't in a formal curriculum doesn't mean one can't educate oneself on their own. Many people do so.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just for stating that.

[RG Equestrian]

I'll fully endorse the notion that doctors, at least, receive very little formal nutritional training in medical school. I haven't heard anything to make me think that vet school is a whole lot different.

However. :) I didn't learn my trade in medical school, really. That's like learning your ABC's--you have to go a lot farther before you're really "literate". Postgraduate training DOES involve nutritional education, and just because something isn't in a formal curriculum doesn't mean one can't educate oneself on their own. Many people do so.

That said, I'd be most curious to know what, exactly, constitutes a formal education in equine nutrition these days? Is it a bachelor level thing, masters level, PhD? Any or all of the above? Where are the best programs in equine nutrition, and is there a standard that is applied to graduates? A board exam? Licensure?

Where does the current thread's guru stand in terms of formal education on equine nutrition? What program, what sort of degree, what level of certification? If I'm going to be considered uneducated because I didn't get hard-core nutritional training in medical school, I want to know why that makes me or any of the other people on COTH (many of whom I would consider VASTLY more expert than myself) less qualified than someone whose credentials are equally if not more vague, undeclared, or self-granted.

Or, in short, if we're to believe that this program is nothing short of miraculous (making a claim of "curing" something like the chronic diseases discussed here surely qualifies), what are the credentials of the person doing the curing? Specifics highly encouraged--I'm a facts type of person. :)

Undergraduate equine nutrition is just skimming the surface (just a couple of courses). I have an undergraduate degree in Equine Science and as you put it...it deals with some ABCs. Formal education in equine nutrition occurs at the postgraduate level....Masters, and PhDs. The best programs in Equine Nutrition depend on the professors at the school. As of 3 or 4 years ago, Virginia Tech was one of the top schools for this because of a very well respected professor, Dr David Kronfeld....who recently passed away.

I do disagree with classifying the curing of some chronic diseases with nutrition as a 'miracle'. For example with cats: The majority of cats with Inflammatory Bowel 'disease' (an auto immune condition that conventional vets say need prednisone for the rest of their lives..or very periodically) can have their condition disappear when they are put on a raw meat diet.

Some of the so called chronic 'Diseases' are not diseases at all. So if they are caused by an external factor......and then that external factor is removed...and the condition goes away....its not really a 'cure' in the true sense of the word....Its just removing the source of the problem.

[ChocoMare]

".... they are caused by an external factor......and then that external factor is removed...and the condition goes away....its not really a 'cure' in the true sense of the word....Its just removing the source of the problem."

Exactly! :yes:

[deltawave]

It's also worth repeating what others have indicated--that a formal education in equine nutrition is not a matter of reading a few books and taking a few courses. To give oneself the title, IMO, should require a legitimate curriculum, completed and confirmed, with (ideally) some sort of certification. And that goes DOUBLE for anyone who calls themselves a practitioner of herbal medicine.

Still waiting for the credentials of Lavender.

Re: a chronic disease "disappearing": of course the semantics are open to debate, but with things like diabetes (for instance) we don't tell people who are able to control their disease with lifestyle changes, etc. that the disease is no longer there. Nor do we call it "cured", of course. It is under control, but still a disease the person is considered to have. Again, this sort of semantic designation is open to debate. I shy away from the word "cure", though, personally, with ANY chronic disease. And I shy away even more from anyone who tells me that's possible, especially with unproven, undefined remedies coming from someone with vague or nonexistent credentials. But that's just me. :)

[BornToRide]

I do disagree with classifying the curing of some chronic diseases with nutrition as a 'miracle'. For example with cats: The majority of cats with Inflammatory Bowel 'disease' (an auto immune condition that conventional vets say need prednisone for the rest of their lives..or very periodically) can have their condition disappear when they are put on a raw meat diet. Exactly - feeding them what they were meant to eat in the first place. And to take it further, most cats with IBS (and people with the same issue) tend to be actually gluten intolerant. Instead of toroughly checking the individual out to reach a difinitive diagnosis, drugs are give for managing the condition.

Some of the so called chronic 'Diseases' are not diseases at all. So if they are caused by an external factor......and then that external factor is removed...and the condition goes away....its not really a 'cure' in the true sense of the word....Its just removing the source of the problem.Yes again. If the body is weaker to start with, external factors have a much easier time to negatively affect it, as we see so many times in poor hoof/frog health. It is often blamed on the wetness in the ground, when the real cause is a weaker horn/frog tissue to begin with and that usually ha a dietary component as well.

[Ghazzu]

Exactly - feeding them what they were meant to eat in the first place. And to take it further, most cats with IBS (and people with the same issue) tend to be actually gluten intolerant. Instead of toroughly checking the individual out to reach a difinitive diagnosis, drugs are give for managing the condition.


Maybe I'm just lucky, but I was taught--by veterinarians!-- that the first thing to look at in cats w/IBS is the diet.

[caballus]

I've updated Misty's page with a photo from this morning. Granted, all my guys are out 24/7 and its been raining cats and dogs. So Misty is not groomed up and her hind end and back are still wet from the rain. But you can see that in just 4 days she continues to put on weight and her hind end and withers are filling in as well. She's still not been on any herbs - just her vegetables. No grain, no hay extender, nothing but vegetables and a little grass.

Shoot, I forgot to hold up a newspaper to prove my date. !! :( I can retake WITH something to prove the date if anyone is doubting. Just let me know. *grin*

http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/2009/ARTICLES/misty09.htm

[BornToRide]

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I was taught--by veterinarians!-- that the first thing to look at in cats w/IBS is the diet.Yes, but the diet often is not changed to a species specific diet and instead drugs are often given and no further tesing, like for gluten intolerance for example is done. I frequently hear that the animal has been put on a specially formulated kibbled diet that still contains carbs and often grains. The animal may get better but often still is never quite right.

IMO if a cat or dog has IBS, the diet should be changed to as basic and close to nature intended as possble, such as cooked chicken meat for example and take it from there.

[caballus]

Here is an interesting article by Dr. Joyce Harman, DVM ...



THE ENERGETICS OF FOOD, FEEDING FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH IN THE EQUINE
Joyce Harman DVM, MRCVS
Chinese food energetics has become more popular in small animal medicine, but has gained little attention in the horse world. Prepackaged, processed equine feeds are just a bad as pet bagged pet foods and just as detrimental to health. Whole food material is best to feed, with attention to the actions of each food.
It is important to understand the Chinese diagnostics when deciding which food to use in an individual case.
First, is the case excess or deficient?
If excess, is it a primary excess: wind, cold, damp, heat, summer heat, dryness?
Or is it secondary: stagnation, phlegm, food stasis or stone formation?
If deficiency (most common), is it a Qi, Blood, Yin or Yang deficiency?
Next, what are the nutritional and caloric needs of the horse? An obese horse does not need much in the way of supplemental food and may need food restriction, but what he does get should be carefully selected for his needs. An overly thin horse may need quite a bit of food in order to help him heal, but if he has a severe imbalance such as laminitis, that food again should be carefully selected. Treats are also an important part of most clients feeding program and need to be addressed also. Simple management issues also have to be considered, such as how many teeth are left to chew with, how easily can the clients fence off excess pasture, how hard does the horse work and how much stress is that horse experiencing.
Apply the principles of the Chinese body and personality type to lead you to the correct foods. The Earth horse is the perfect school horse, quiet, sweet, easy to handle, friendly, likes food and tends to gain weight or be deficient in his Spleen. The Fire horse is the typical happy chestnut thoroughbred mare, bouncing off the walls, very sensitive, friendly, and is likely to have skin problems or mental imbalances. The Wood horse is the workaholic, driven racehorse or performance horse, does not like to be confined, and is prone to ulcers and anger issues. The Metal horse is obedient, does not like to be fussed over, will do his job well and is prone to respiratory and skin problems. The Water horse is flexible in his body, fearful in his brain and prone to mental issues (the kidney and bladder imbalances do not occur frequently in horses).
The season of the year also helps determine the feeds to select. In the hot summer time, a warming food such as oats may adversely affect the Fire horse, even if oats can be tolerated in the winter. Conversely a cool food such as barley may not work well for an older arthritic horse in the winter.
Foods have those same basic properties as Chinese herbs. They have a temperature, a flavor, a direction and a meridian they mainly influence. The basic principle of Yin and Yang apply to foods; a balance between the two is essential. Yin foods are cooling, salty, bitter, and sour, have descending energy and build body fluids and blood. Yang foods are warming, sweet, pungent, energizing and have ascending energy. Yin conditions are cold, interior and deficient, while Yang conditions are hot, exterior and excess.
Processed foods are pushed to the horse owning public, even as it is recognized that horses actually need very little grain concentrates. The feed companies do not want to give up their sales, so they create foods made of inedible byproducts placed in a bag and sold for all sorts of specialized conditions. Processing of all sorts increases the warmth of a food. The higher the heat used to cook it, the warmer the food. Pellets and extruded feeds are all heat processed. Flash cooked oats are heat processed, though for a shorter time than the extruded foods, Hulless oats have been grown without the natural fiber that an oat contains so will be digested faster and warmer. Processed foods should never be fed to horses with warm or hot conditions.
Drugs can affect the energetic patterns, so foods can be selected to offset the reaction of the body to the drug. For example, steroids damage the Yin, leading to a Yin deficiency and therefore a deficiency heat (lack of Yin to cool the Yang). Cooling foods can be used to offset the heat. Phenylbutazone can damage the Stomach and Liver, leading to heat in the liver and intestinal tract, so again some cooling foods can help offset the drug condition.
Foods for various conditions
These conditions below are sample ideas, since each individual horse may have a different presentation than is usually seen. In cases where both warm and cool are common, the condition is listed in both. For example, ulcers are often from excess heat in the Liver overacting on the Stomach, but could be from a Stomach Yin deficiency. Fortunately, cooling foods could be used for both conditions here without any problems. Laminitis is a heat condition, but can be from an excess or deficiency. Many horses are put on starvation diets and become very thin. However they need to eat, and often need quite a bit of protein or calories to heal, but need to eat cooling foods. Arthritis is usually a cold disease, but a Yin deficient horse may have a warm arthritis where warming foods are contraindicated. A yang deficient laminitis horse will thrive with cinnamon added, while a yin deficient or excess heat laminitis will worsen when fed cinnamon. Ginger is well known for its positive effects on the stomach and this author uses it frequently for motion sickness, but it is warming, so it could aggravate ulcers if they are caused by excess heat.
Horse feeds tend to have only a few ingredients, however, in various parts of the world many different foods are actually fed to horses. It is possible to try some of the vegetables listed to see if a horse likes to eat to eat them, they are not harmful. In parts of the world where horses commonly eat different foods, they learn from a young age to like that food. For example, in England’s root crop growing areas, it is common to see oversize parsnips dumped in a field for the horses to graze on. In the USA, the author has seen random selections of vegetables and fruits from the discards at grocery stores fed to happy, healthy horses. This is an excellent way to add variety to a diet.
Hot, warm diseases
Ulcers, laminitis, uveitis, inflammatory diarrhea, hepatitis, urinary tract inflammation, pituitary hyperplasia (some), Insulin resistance (some), Yin deficient arthritis, inflamed skin, itchy skin, atopy, colic (some), uterine infections, anhydrosis.
Foods: alfalfa, amaranth, asparagus, barley bran, barley grass, barley, broccoli, buckwheat, cantaloupe, cauliflower, celery, citrus, cucumber, egg plant, eggplant, flax seed (oil), grass, lettuce, millet, pear, peppermint, persimmon, radish, soy bean oil, spinach, strawberry, summer squash, sweet corn, tomato, watermelon rim, watermelon, wheat bran, wheat grass, wheat, zucchini.
Cold, cool diseases
Arthritis, many diarrheas, pituitary hyperplasia (most), insulin resistance (many), hypothyroid, colic (many), male infertility, hyperadrenocorticism-hursutism,
Foods: apricot, banana, cherry, cinnamon, coriander, fennel, garlic, ginger, ginger, horseradish, kale, kelp, leek, lettuce, maltose, mustard greens, oats, olive oil, parsley, parsnip, peach, pumpkin, quinoa, seaweed, sesame seed, spelt, squash, sunflower seeds (may not be as good with the shells), sweet feed, tangerine peel, turmeric, winter squash.

Neutral foods that could be used in many conditions:
apple, apricot, beet pulp, buckwheat, cabbage, carrots, Chinese cabbage, corn, fig, grape, papaya, peanut hay, peanut oil, radish, rice, rye, sweet potato.

Food therapy can be used to enhance the healing process for many equine conditions. Broaden your horizons by looking past the traditional foods and encourage the clients to experiment and add variety to the diet.
Boudreaux, M. Traditional Chinese Food Therapy. AHVMA, Tulsa, 2007.
Chi Institute class notes on Food Therapy, personality
Pitchford P. Healing With Whole Foods. North Atlantic Books, Berkeley CA. 1993.
Ward, M. Horse Harmony. Myriah Press. 2008.