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View Full Version : German Junior Riders just won all medals at the European Championships at Ermelo



freestyle2music
Aug. 8, 2009, 07:50 AM
German Junior Riders won all medals at the European Championships at Ermelo

Guided by Sanneke Rothenberger, the German Junior riders did a marvelous job by winning all three medals during the individual test at the European Championships at Ermelo (the Netherlands). The Dutch riders made too many mistakes, while the German riders just did their job, and hardly made any mistakes. The top 2 riders of the Dutch team toke to much risk in trying to overscore the 76+ change of Sanneke and her magnificent horse Deveraux, and were punished for that.

More info at :

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=45

canyonoak
Aug. 8, 2009, 11:20 AM
well, that's how the junior Dutch riders will learn the hard lesson!

freestyle2music
Aug. 8, 2009, 01:09 PM
well, that's how the junior Dutch riders will learn the hard lesson!

This has nothing to do with the medals, but the USA judge Mc'Donald was a complete disaster during this competition. :mad::mad:.

Somebody called "Dressageart" on this forum tried to tell the world how superiour the judge-education is in the USA. But what I have seen during this competition was a complete disaster. And I don't only mean the endscores, but specially her scores per movement.

canyonoak
Aug. 8, 2009, 02:13 PM
well, I looked today,and her scoring is pretty much in line with the other judges.

claire
Aug. 8, 2009, 02:56 PM
This has nothing to do with the medals, but the USA judge Mc'Donald was a complete disaster during this competition. :mad::mad:.

Somebody called "Dressageart" on this forum tried to tell the world how superiour the judge-education is in the USA. But what I have seen during this competition was a complete disaster. And I don't only mean the endscores, but specially her scores per movement.


:confused: Actually, looks like McDonald was right in line with the other judges. (McDonald actually scored the Dutch riders higher in some cases than the Dutch judge, and the Dutch judge gave the German riders much higher scores in many cases than McDonald.)

http://www.eurodressage.com/scores/2009/ecjryr_ermelo.html


And what does DressageArt have to do with anything???

canyonoak
Aug. 8, 2009, 05:03 PM
Theo does not complain about judges because they score Dutch riders particularly low--he was complaining because the FIRST day of judging, the US judge's scores were indeed all over the place.

But I do think that there are very few great trainers, very few great riders--and very few great judges.

I think the great ones have their 'eye' always in place and the others, like the horses and riders, sometimes take a little more time to get all the dots connected.

And as we all know<g> in September, they will have The Great Judge-down at Aachen and much hue and cry will go on and they will try various systems of judging and while a lot of this is just piffle and for show, at least it will be an honest attempt to work out HOW to accomplish better judging.

Arathita
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:10 PM
This has nothing to do with the medals, but the USA judge Mc'Donald was a complete disaster during this competition. :mad::mad:.

Somebody called "Dressageart" on this forum tried to tell the world how superiour the judge-education is in the USA. But what I have seen during this competition was a complete disaster. And I don't only mean the endscores, but specially her scores per movement.

McDonald's scores were in line with the other judges. Please explain how this constitutes a "complete disaster". I second the question: what does DressageArt have to do with how a US judge scores during a competition?

ETA: I looked up the rides on day 1. McDonald has only 1 or 2 instances where she is the high or low score on the panel. Out of 68 rides. The dutch judge has instances where he was the high and low score. Each judge has an instance when he/she is the high or low score.

Please link to the disasterous scores by the US judge, Theo. I must not see them.

http://events.scg-nl.nl/2009/ermelo/results/results.htm

freestyle2music
Aug. 8, 2009, 09:50 PM
Theo does not complain about judges because they score Dutch riders particularly low--he was complaining because the FIRST day of judging, the US judge's scores were indeed all over the place.

But I do think that there are very few great trainers, very few great riders--and very few great judges.

I think the great ones have their 'eye' always in place and the others, like the horses and riders, sometimes take a little more time to get all the dots connected.

And as we all know<g> in September, they will have The Great Judge-down at Aachen and much hue and cry will go on and they will try various systems of judging and while a lot of this is just piffle and for show, at least it will be an honest attempt to work out HOW to accomplish better judging.

This is the biggest mistake everybody makes. The judge was in line with the others :mad: That's also what La Withages always stated. However since the marks per movement were also given she was wayyyyyyyy out, time after time. It even became a sport for the commentators (riders, judges ,trainers and EQ journalists) to mention it several times.
Four times an 8 and one a 5, next movement 4 times a 5 and one 8, "Guess from which judge this is coming from." etc..etc....

Furthermore in another topic DressageArt mentioned that the USA program for educating judges was far better than the European program and that the Europeans had asked the US to help them with their judge education program.

Theo

sixpoundfarm
Aug. 8, 2009, 10:01 PM
I'd love to see Deveraux video or photos, one of my mares is a full sister to his dam.

Dressage Art
Aug. 8, 2009, 11:20 PM
Furthermore in another topic DressageArt mentioned that the USA program for educating judges was far better than the European program and that the Europeans had asked the US to help them with their judge education program.

Theo

And I see that got stuck in your memory? :lol:

It is true FACT Theo that several European countries reached out to USDF to share their "L" program for dressage judges’ education. This program is pioneering in thinking and is clearly the best that there is for now for the beginning education of dressage judges. It is very successful to prepare and give an idea what dressage judging is to the curious judgelinks. The program is only 15 years old, so none of the international judges went thru it, but most are “L” instructors.

Just b/c the "L" program comes from USA - you don't have to kick it ;)

siegi b.
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:41 AM
Just have to chime in here..... I know a couple of "L" graduates in my area that can't find their butt with both hands when it comes to judging what is really in front of them. If they are any indication of what this program is churning out then I'm less than impressed.

canyonoak
Aug. 9, 2009, 10:11 AM
The L program is only as good as the judges who run them and the applicants who go through the program.
And the reality is--there are very few great judges, at the start and even at the finish. We all know of "O" judges we think are poor.

This is sad, but true.

I looked at the US judge scores AS GIVEN in the results,and have no way to know that it is the individual scores that are so off.

Once again--I really do not understand WHY the movement-by-movement scores cannot be released after a competition.

I asked/begged/whined/nagged at World Cup....nada.

These days, with computers for all the big shows, it is a moment's time to put stuff on a flash drive or hit "Save" and send it out.

The judge fraternity--like ALL fraternities everywhere-- wants to keep 'the secret handshake', the 'special words of welcome' and all the other nonsense that has always gone with secret societies that want to seem special.

I just wish they would make the scores public. I think THAT would go a long way to improving the judging.

mbm
Aug. 9, 2009, 11:47 AM
so i am curious.

do we wnat the judges to all give the exact same score for each movement even tho they see the movement from different angles?

if that is the case - why have multiple judges?

it seems to me the reason you have multiple judge is to even out any high/low scores?

freestyle2music
Aug. 9, 2009, 03:40 PM
The L program is only as good as the judges who run them and the applicants who go through the program.
And the reality is--there are very few great judges, at the start and even at the finish. We all know of "O" judges we think are poor.

This is sad, but true.

I looked at the US judge scores AS GIVEN in the results,and have no way to know that it is the individual scores that are so off.

Once again--I really do not understand WHY the movement-by-movement scores cannot be released after a competition.

I asked/begged/whined/nagged at World Cup....nada.

These days, with computers for all the big shows, it is a moment's time to put stuff on a flash drive or hit "Save" and send it out.

The judge fraternity--like ALL fraternities everywhere-- wants to keep 'the secret handshake', the 'special words of welcome' and all the other nonsense that has always gone with secret societies that want to seem special.

I just wish they would make the scores public. I think THAT would go a long way to improving the judging.

The only thing I want to say is that the tryout from the FEI to invite judges from the US to judge at European championships has failed completely. Or should I say : Jeanne McDonald proved the last five days that she don't belong in a judgebox <period>

The Europeans are already collecting money to send her back to the US.

Dressage Art
Aug. 9, 2009, 03:54 PM
The only thing I want to say is that the tryout from the FEI to invite judges from the US to judge at European championships has failed completely. Or should I say : Jeanne McDonald proved the last five days that she don't belong in a judgebox <period>

The Europeans are already collecting money to send her back to the US.Gosh Theo you are so harsh!

Dressage Art
Aug. 9, 2009, 03:56 PM
Just have to chime in here..... I know a couple of "L" graduates in my area that can't find their butt with both hands when it comes to judging what is really in front of them. If they are any indication of what this program is churning out then I'm less than impressed.:lol: Well that is our bright future of dressage judges in US. And only 1/3 of "L" participant passes the final exam with distinction that allows them to continue to the next level. "Look at your right, look at your left, only one of you will pass with distinction" = only ~3 people out of the whole "L" group!!!! So IMHO = it's a pretty tough 1-2 year long ($3K to $5K) program already = I'm not sure how much more tougher you want to make it AND have anybody passing with distinction? ;) And in Europe, there is NO education program for beginner judges at all. They are on their own to educate themselves. So "L" educational program is a huge step forward.

There are people judging who never went thru "L", there are people judging who went thru one part of "L", there are people judging who went thru "L" and failed to graduate, there are people judging who went thru "L" and graduated, there are people judging who went thru "L" and graduated with distinction = there is a difference between them, and it's really up to you who do you prefer as your judge.

PS: I would love to see the scores become public as well as the colletive scores with comments.

FriesianX
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:12 PM
Well, I am going to chime in here, sure to get some Theo kicks myself ;) But - it is a fact, right now, there are NO comprehensive judging training programs anywhere in the world, and the U.S. has a better head start with it's L program than any other country. So yes, other countries ARE looking at the USDF L program as the base line for a judges training program. I'm sure they will tweak and make changes - just as USDF has over the years. It is a relatively new program (I think the early 90s was its very first session), and as DA points out, none of the current international judges went through it - in fact, many of our national S judges didn't go through it either. Granted the program is not perfect - but it is a good education, and a great start when considering a more expanded international judges program.

At some of the CDIs here, some of the non-US judges have spoken with great interest of our program.

Siegi, you may find some L graduates that are not stellar "judges" - to be honest, NONE of us are stellar yet - L means LEARNER - it is nothing more than a start in the right direction. Some are better than others - some barely passed, thus are graduates, but are not qualified to ever move on to the "r" program. You really shouldn't base your opinion of the program on a couple of grads - audit the program and make a judgement based on that experience instead! Having gone through the program, and scribed for someone else going through the program, I can tell you not everyone has the eye or the vocabulary to be a judge. And interestingly, riding ability and judging ability are not necessarily one and the same. Some excellent riders don't have the EYE to judge - they can feel, but they can't see or articulate.

Anyway, I really do recommend people audit the program and make judgement based on that experience.

As for Jeanne - she is actually a pretty highly respected judge, both in the US and abroad. And again, based on scribing experience, she has always been a very gracious person as well - just because you don't agree with a few of her marks, hardly makes her the wicked judge of the west. I think most of us here in the US will be quite happy that you send her back to us in one piece!

Dressage Art
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:20 PM
As for Jeanne - she is actually a pretty highly respected judge, both in the US and abroad. And again, based on scribing experience, she has always been a very gracious person as well - just because you don't agree with a few of her marks, hardly makes her the wicked judge of the west. I think most of us here in the US will be quite happy that you send her back to us in one piece!DITTO!!!

claire
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:24 PM
:lol: Well that is our bright future of dressage judges in US. And only 1/3 of "L" participant passes the final exam with distinction that allows them to continue to the next level. "Look at your right, look at your left, only one of you will pass with distinction" = only ~3 people out of the whole "L" group!!!! So IMHO = it's a pretty tough 1-2 year long ($3K to $5K) program already = I'm not sure how much more tougher you want to make it AND have anybody passing with distinction? ;) And in Europe, there is NO education program for beginner judges at all. They are on their own to educate themselves. So "L" educational program is a huge step forward.

There are people judging who never went thru "L", there are people judging who went thru one part of "L", there are people judging who went thru "L" and failed to graduate, there are people judging who went thru "L" and graduated, there are people judging who went thru "L" and graduated with distinction = they is a difference between them, and it's really up to you who do you prefer as your judge.

PS: I would love to see the scores become public as well as the colletive scores with comments.


Thank you, Dressage Art and FriesianX for the sharing this information about the USDF judging program.
(And for getting this thread back on a more civil track :winkgrin: )

Why do you think that the scores for each movement as well as the collective scores are not made public?

Also, are there other base points (other than the USDF program) being studied as a possible FEI judging program?

freestyle2music
Aug. 9, 2009, 04:36 PM
As for Jeanne - she is actually a pretty highly respected judge, both in the US and abroad. And again, based on scribing experience, she has always been a very gracious person as well - just because you don't agree with a few of her marks, hardly makes her the wicked judge of the west. I think most of us here in the US will be quite happy that you send her back to us in one piece!


I'll be polite and don't post the PM's which I received from some US-topriders, but PLEASE keep her in the USA and take away her indentity card and her passport and make sure she stays on your side of the ocean.

And NO her judging didn't harm the Dutch, Germans or my favourite riders or horses, and YES sometimes she was in line with the other judges, but when you watched her scores per movement she made a complete fool out of herself.

mbm
Aug. 9, 2009, 06:55 PM
again, why is it so mission critical for a judge to "be inline" with the other judges?

i thought the purpose of a panel of judges was to:

a) get multiple views/POVs/educated opinions
b) so that the high/low scores could be tossed out ie: you would get an "average" of what all think?

I have no experience with said judge - i just think that to make such sweeping unkind comments is very harsh and uncalled for and further perpetuates the concept of judges being afraid of ever voicing their real opinions... because if they do they will get booted and never asked back.

so much for an independent "judiciary"

as for "L" what is the point of saying someone "passed/graduated with distinction" ? do they pass/graduate people that failed the tests? i cant imagine that is a good thing for the program because even those that sucked can say they passed the L program.... and is just another example of the "feel good" society we live in where not hurting anyone's feelings and making sure everyone feels included and appreciated just muddies the waters.... better to say someone either passed/graduated - or didn't.

FriesianX
Aug. 9, 2009, 08:05 PM
mbm, the point of saying "graduated, or passed" versus "passed with distinction" is:

Not everyone passes - in fact, the pass rate is roughly 1/3 of those who complete the testing. AND - of those who participate in the program, not all go on to the testing. Generally, after the first sessions, the faculty may tell people to NOT bother testing yet because they won't pass - and testing costs more $. In some cases, those L participants go out, get more experience, then find another program and test later on. In other cases, they simply don't bother. The test is pretty expensive. So of those who go through the A through D sessions, less than 1/3 will pass, and much less will "pass with distinction".

The reason we distinguish between those who pass and those who "pass with distinction" is that you must "pass with distinction" to qualify to enter the "r" program. Anyone who passes the exam is called an "L Graduate", but only those who pass with a certain higher score can request to enter the "r" program - and only after meeting other requirements as well (referrals from so many judges and others, and so many scores above 65% at 4th level at USDF shows).

It is rather complicated - but it all starts to make some sense after you've been immersed in it for a while;)

And I agree with your comments about getting multiple points of view on judging - sometimes one judge sees something another judge missed. They are at different vantage points (one might see the movement head on, the other from the side, for example), and sometimes a judge just misses something - they look over at their scribe for a moment, right as the horse rears, for example:eek: And some judges focus more on one thing than another - it is actually really cool to get multiple opinions since one judge can't possibly comment and see EVERYTHING that goes on.

Theo - as for multiple PMS, EVERY judge seems to generate contraversy - there are just as many PMs supporting Ms. McDonald. It is part of being a judge, people seem to love you or hate you depending on how that judge scored that person's ride. Its OK, you don't have to be a fan of hers. We'll be glad to have her back in the US.

Dressage Art
Aug. 9, 2009, 09:13 PM
I'll be polite and don't post the PM's which I received from some US-topriders, but PLEASE keep her in the USA and take away her indentity card and her passport and make sure she stays on your side of the ocean.

And NO her judging didn't harm the Dutch, Germans or my favourite riders or horses, and YES sometimes she was in line with the other judges, but when you watched her scores per movement she made a complete fool out of herself.

Be careful not to make a fool of yourself by attacking Jeanne Mc'Donald with out backing up yourself with facts. Just b/c you do not agree with her scores, it doesn't = that her scores were wrong.

:confused: Actually, looks like McDonald was right in line with the other judges: http://www.eurodressage.com/scores/2009/ecjryr_ermelo.html yes Claire, I'm also :confused: ... it really seems like just a personal attack from Theo on Jeanne Mc'Donald's judging.

freestyle2music
Aug. 10, 2009, 07:41 AM
At the press-conference Tineke Bartels stated. I am nog going to blame the judges, because for me it was enough that they put the blame on theirselfs, and spend every night analysing and discussing their scores with help of the videos. They all were really sick about the huge differences during this competition.

My question however stays : Why experiment with exotic judges during an European Championship.

@ DressageArt: I was at Ermelo for two days and watched the rest on the Internet, and YES she was the clown of the competition. Specially when you break her scores down per movement. I hope you understand that at these kind of competitions all the toptrainers and coaches are present, and they had the same feeling like everybody else about "that American judge" .

Theo

mbm
Aug. 10, 2009, 12:14 PM
so, there is no real independence of the judges is there? only if the judges do what the trainers/riders like will they be "popular" and asked to judge.

hmmmm..... me thinks it is all just a farce and getting closer and closer to just being entertainment and no real competition.

freestyle2music
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:08 PM
so, there is no real independence of the judges is there? only if the judges do what the trainers/riders like will they be "popular" and asked to judge.

hmmmm..... me thinks it is all just a farce and getting closer and closer to just being entertainment and no real competition.

It's very obvious that you don't ride competitions yourself. :no::no:

It was Kyra Kyrklund who once said : "please let the judges make clear to us what they want to see, and we'll do it" . She didn't say "let the judge at C and B and ...... make clear what they want to see, and we'll do it all".

Funny that everybody wants the judges to score confirm the handbook, and when it comes down to an USA judge she's allowed to create her own handbook.

But as I read on a Dutch forum, there is already collected enough money to send her back to the US.

Dressage Art
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:13 PM
@ DressageArt: I was at Ermelo for two days and watched the rest on the Internet, and YES she was the clown of the competition. Specially when you break her scores down per movement.So break her scores down per movement then, so the rest of us will have a chance to see what you are bitching about? What movements were so hugely not in line with others? From the final % it seems that she did well and you are just ragging on her.

mbm
Aug. 10, 2009, 02:19 PM
i agree with DA - from my vantage point it looks like this is a personal vendetta.

please provide proof to backup your claims - i think it would be educational.

fwiw, from where i stand little of the toprides are closely adhering to "the book" so not sure why all of a sudden this is held up as the goal?

for me it has nothing to do with what country a judge is from. i just dont see how dressage can be credible as a sport if the judges are not free to mark as they see fit. - and not how the "gang" wants them too.
:no::no:

also, this whole "you don't compete" line of argument is a red herring and also, if the goal is the popularity and globalization of dressage (ie be able to create a market to make money) i suggest figuring out a better way of interacting with those you decide are Plebes.

and theo you need to make up your mind - either forums are made of rabble and have no power or importance, or they do. you can't have it both ways :)