Barefoot vs. farrier care

[tarynls]

I was wondering why we hear all the bad things farriers have done to our horses, yet we never hear horror stories about barefoot trimmers.

In the past month, BF farrier has had to "fix" issues on numerous horses caused by barefoot trimmers taking hooves too short, improper balance causing lameness - and the one that takes the cake - totally missing a very obvious abscess and INSISTING the horse had either a hock, stifle or SI problem.

Mind you these barefoot trimmers all held some sort of certification.

This is not just one barefoot trimmer either. Is this an epidemic in my area?

[sunico]

I watched as an entire barn full of wonderful school horses were gradually crippled by a "certified barefoot trimmer". I stopped teaching there because I couldn't bear to see these horses hobble around in pain.

There are plenty of horror stories.

[LMH]

I have several posts that speak about poor trimming work.

Happy now?:lol:

Can we take bets on what post number the trainwreck starts?

Seriously I am pretty horrified at the work of the many of the Read and Raspers (you know, read Pete's book and start rasping professionally?)

[caballus]

Seriously I am pretty horrified at the work of the many of the Read and Raspers (you know, read Pete's book and start rasping professionally?) Ditto. I am horrified at alot of what I see come out of BOTH AHA and AANHCP circuits. That's the main reason I chose to remain "Independent" apart from these organizations.

[magnolia73]

Oh.... both sides generally get their criticism here. And always remember- there are good and bad practictioners of any profession.

[chancellor2]

I have several posts that speak about poor trimming work.

Happy now?:lol:

Can we take bets on what post number the trainwreck starts?

Seriously I am pretty horrified at the work of the many of the Read and Raspers (you know, read Pete's book and start rasping professionally?)

Since BTR is no longer here, trainwrecks are far less likely.

I've seen horses crippled by bad trimming and by bad farriery. Like anything else, there are good and bad in any profession.

[Auventera Two]

I had a doctor once misdiagnose a medical condition and it created a very bad situation for me. Went to a different doctor and she was shaking her head in disbelief at what the previous doctor did. So there was a medical professional who went through med school and the whole shebang and still screwed up. It happens in every profession.

[Daydream Believer]

Oh.... both sides generally get their criticism here. And always remember- there are good and bad practictioners of any profession.

Very true. We have plenty of criticism of both types of hoof care providers on here. Trainwrecks are way too common.

[ddashaq]

I personally have had my gelding messed up by a farrier and a trimmer, so there is certainly incompetence in both camps. I don't think that there is much difference between a skilled farrier and a skilled trimmer, as long as they have a clue either one can keep most horses sound and their feet healthy. The biggest issues I have seen are with the trimmers OR farriers that decide after reading a book or taking a two week course that they should doing feet professionally.

[tarynls]

The biggest issues I have seen are with the trimmers OR farriers that decide after reading a book or taking a two week course that they should doing feet professionally.

I agree....but do barefoot trimmers go through a stringent testing program (for example, BF is a CJF and it took years to achieve that status)

Also...here we have veterinary clinics that hold farrier clinics a few times a year - going over X ray pathologies, founder, laminitis...from a veterinary and a farrier perspective so they can work on pathologic cases in harmony.

Does that exist in the trimmer world?

(Obviously I am not well versed in the barefoot trimmer world!)

[JB]

I was wondering why we hear all the bad things farriers have done to our horses, yet we never hear horror stories about barefoot trimmers.
Where have you been? ;) There have been numerous threads about that very thing ;)

I'd daresay though that since there are more farriers than trimmers in this country, there are simply going to be more complaints about farriers due to sheer numbers.

[grayarabpony]

OP, I guess you're not reading thoroughly enough. There are have been stories of trimmers cutting off horse's feet on this board.

[tarynls]

OP, I guess you're not reading thoroughly enough. There are have been stories of trimmers cutting off horse's feet on this board.

So either learn to read better or quit trying to stir the pot.

Actually, this is not an issue of me needing to learn to "read better". I don't spend every waking minute on this board and have obviously missed the stories you're speaking of.
That's why I started this thread. Not to stir the pot.

[grayarabpony]

That did come out a bit grouchy, didn't it? Stick around and you'll see why...

There have been plenty of accounts on this board of overzealous trimmers. I've seen a lot of them and I certainly don't spend every waking moment on this board. EqTrainer just recently posted about a pony who had been trimmed very severely in an effort to take off a flare all at once.

LMH and DDB have posted about the terrible trimming jobs they've seen. There are trimmers who try to take the mustang wear model and apply it to horses by just taking off too much hoof, whacking the heel too far down and all at once -- it defies common sense.

The stories I had heard about trimmers is why I didn't hire one after my horses had been subjected to the crappy trims by local farriers. That's why I now trim my own!

[Daydream Believer]

I agree....but do barefoot trimmers go through a stringent testing program (for example, BF is a CJF and it took years to achieve that status)

Also...here we have veterinary clinics that hold farrier clinics a few times a year - going over X ray pathologies, founder, laminitis...from a veterinary and a farrier perspective so they can work on pathologic cases in harmony.

Does that exist in the trimmer world?

(Obviously I am not well versed in the barefoot trimmer world!)

Yes and no. Some trimmers are trained in some very thorough training programs where there is structured learning and tests per se. Many are not...they learn on their own or from some other trimmer, or trimmers, and go to work. Same with farriers. I know several farriers that never went to school and almost none in my area have pursued high education or certification like CJF.

One local farrier who recently earned some sort of AFA certification does horrible trims...all the horses are trimmed as if they are going in shoes and refuses to bevel/roll the walls of the barefoot hoof...even when asked to do it. I know this as a number of my clients used this person when I was injured recently. In three weeks the hooves were cracking, flaring and chipping badly. I know another very popular farrier who does the same and just trimmed a couple horses Wednesday that were done two weeks earlier by this farrier whose feet looked so long, flared and chipped I could hardly believe it. The owner was furious as he charges more for the trims than I do and his trim doesn't even last 3 to 4 weeks. His shoeing work is much better as is the other farrier's...but the work they do on hooves that stay bare seem to be lacking. So I put fairly low value on any of those programs honestly for trimmers or farriers...it takes so much more than that for someone to be skilled practitioner.

There is no one unified structured organization at this time for trimmers nor is there one "standard." The biggest organization is AANHCP or perhaps the Strasser group. Neither one is particularly well thought of by many folks unfortunately. AHA is a smaller group that one gains certification by peer review. There are the Equine Podiatrists trained by KC LaPierre...I have no idea how large a group that is. I've seen both capable and not so capable trimmers out of all the above groups....pretty much the same as farriers. Letters behind the name don't mean much.

I'd love it if there was a national or professional level group for trimmers that we could all belong to. The problem is that no one outfit right now can agree on "how" the hoof should be trimmed. Truth is though that the results...the well trimmed hoof...looks much the same regardless of who does it..farrier, trimmer, horse owner...so I'd rather focus on results rather than on the "How" and I think we'd all be better off.

There are some trimmer gurus do host clinics but mostly they are directed at the newcomers or horse owners. I do think some of the trimmer organizations above do clinics and higher education training but you have to belong to that group to participate.

I do see way more poor work out there than good these days. It is a sad state of affairs.

[Pancakes]

Since BTR is no longer here, trainwrecks are far less likely.

I've seen horses crippled by bad trimming and by bad farriery. Like anything else, there are good and bad in any profession.

Wait, when did BTR leave? I agree that there will be 80% fewer trainwrecks now and less "diet and IR!" nonsense, but did I miss something?

[nadasy]

My horse has to wear shoes (he foundered at 4 non-related to grass). I go to Cornell because 8 years later this horse is still sound and his feet are amazing. He only had front shoes until he was 8, then as our work increased and we were in different areas in Winter, he put on hind shoes as well.

My Conn/TB cross was also shod by Mike W. and NEVER had shoes from 3 until 6 and she was ready to go Training level. Mike trimmed her every 5 weeks. When she was sold to a H/J Junior, we took off the shoes, and Mike continued to BF trim her. She had fantastic feet - strong, balanced, beautiful. (as a side note: When I got her at 3, she had shoes all around and horrid feet, each shoe was so different. Mike pulled all of them, trimmed her and we gave her another trimming and started into work.)

My point you ask?
BF trimmers can ALSO be Farriers, and can trim BF because they-hopefully have had the proper training and experience and knowledge to do so.

I'm sure there are farriers that don't use BF trimming, and some that do. My concern of course, are the BF trimmers that 'read a book' - 'take a short course' - have an ego that entitles them to do this without any training - AND the ones that have something to sell you.

Sadly, the horses are the ones that suffer from this gross oversimplification of trimming BF.

[tarynls]

A2: Try to attend the Hoof Care Summit if you can. BF used to alternate between the AFA convention and the Hoof Care Summit - now he just goes to Cincinnati along with local clinics. Cincinnati offers a fantastic learning experience.

[equineartworks]

My horse has to wear shoes (he foundered at 4 non-related to grass). I go to Cornell because 8 years later this horse is still sound and his feet are amazing. He only had front shoes until he was 8, then as our work increased and we were in different areas in Winter, he put on hind shoes as well.

My Conn/TB cross was also shod by Mike W. and NEVER had shoes from 3 until 6 and she was ready to go Training level. Mike trimmed her every 5 weeks. When she was sold to a H/J Junior, we took off the shoes, and Mike continued to BF trim her. She had fantastic feet - strong, balanced, beautiful. (as a side note: When I got her at 3, she had shoes all around and horrid feet, each shoe was so different. Mike pulled all of them, trimmed her and we gave her another trimming and started into work.)

My point you ask?
BF trimmers can ALSO be Farriers, and can trim BF because they-hopefully have had the proper training and experience and knowledge to do so.

I'm sure there are farriers that don't use BF trimming, and some that do. My concern of course, are the BF trimmers that 'read a book' - 'take a short course' - have an ego that entitles them to do this without any training - AND the ones that have something to sell you.

Sadly, the horses are the ones that suffer from this gross oversimplification of trimming BF.

I had a delightful barefoot trimmer when Dumplin' first got her. I really like her and still stay in touch with her, however, she was not able to address Dumplin's needs. After meeting with Mike W. at Cornell and having him trim and fit Dumplin' with his "corrective footware" we have found what is good for all of the horses and now, thanks to Mike W's recommendation, have an incredible farrier who is a graduate of the farrier program at Cornell.

Having the opportunity to visit and work with various horses gives me lots of opportunities to talk to people and find out what they love, and what they loathe, about their horses foot care. Three things always come up first


Cost
time
communication


They want it cheaper, at 5:30pm and they want the farrier and/or trimmer to be there right on time and to always call them back immediately when they beckon.

I want a farrier who takes amazing care of my horses. If I have to pay $45 for him to come 60 miles out of his way to do that...I will. If I have to schedule him to come at 2:30 on a Tuesday...I will. If I have to wait until 3pm for that appointment because the horse before mine had something nasty going on...I will. And if he doesn't call me back for a day and it isn't an emergency...fine.

I do these things because my horses receive the very best they can with him and I also know that if something happens to one of my crew and they need help right away he will be there. And if something nasty creeps up during a regular scheduled visit they won't be rushed.

I get this level of care and service along with the peace of mind of knowing that he actively consults Cornell and taps into the resources available to him there. He has completed the general and advanced coursework with Mike Wildenstein that includes:

General:

25 hrs in anatomy of the horse's foot
30 hrs in theory of therapeutic shoeing
385 hrs of forge work
200 hrs in trimming feet, fitting and nailing shoes

Add to that his experience as a horseperson and I got myself a keeper.

Something that I found repeated with the barefoot folks I interviewed (and yes, I interviewed SEVERAL providers before deciding who to use. I am a hoof phobe). They all seemed to want to "bash" farriers. Even my former trimmer who I like did this. :confused:

[Tom Stovall]

nadasy in gray, stuff deleted

My point you ask? BF trimmers can ALSO be Farriers,

I beg to differ. If one's education and skills are limited to trimming, one cannot be called a farrier because farriery requires all the knowledge and motor skills necessary to trim correctly, PLUS the additonal knowledge and motor skills required in order to apply shoes correctly.

and can trim BF because they-hopefully have had the proper training and experience and knowledge to do so.

While it's trendy for some folks to claim there's a difference between the various "barefoot trims" and the traditional trim farriers use when leaving a horse barefooted, other than Strasser's invasive butchery, there's not a nickel's worth of difference between them.

I'm sure there are farriers that don't use BF trimming, and some that do.

Please define correct "BF trimming" as done by anyone whose skills are limited to trimming and differentiate it from a hoof correctly trimmed to be left bare by a farrier. :)

[Granada]

I've noticed that often there are "barefoot people" and "shoe people" when instead there should be "barefoot horses" and "shoe horses".

I think barefoot has become a "cure-all" cult instead of just being part of good horsemanship and this has led to some kooky barefoot trimmers with cult like followings, so because of this one needs to be especially careful when hiring a barefoot trimmer as a bad barefoot trimmer can really mess up your horse. I'm skeptical of anyone who has a "cure-all", wants to make drastic changes with the first trim, or warns the owner that their horse will be sore for a week before trimming... and from experience this seems to be more common among barefoot trimmers than shoe farriers... I chalk this up to the cult following of "barefoot people".

I have one barefoot horse and two shod-- shoes pulled winter depending on what their feet need. With all three horses, for me trimming is the most important aspect of hoof care, not shoes v barefoot.

[Ritazza]

Since BTR is no longer here, trainwrecks are far less likely.


Whoa wait when did BTR leave?? I thoroughly enjoy sitting back and reading the violent trainwrecks that come out of THOSE threads!

[chancellor2]

There was a thread entitled "objectivity" which has been pulled.
Basically she accused someone of doing exactly what she did on another board and then lied about. I've no idea what happened after that as my internet connection at home was down.
The next morning, I found the thread pulled and "banned" under BTR's name on threads in which she had posted.
Chronicle forums' Horse Care forum will be a much safer place to get horse care information without her drivel in my opinion.

BTW, Tom, I think that farriers can also be barefoot trimmers but not necessarily the other way around. My farrier can do a lovely barefoot trim but he can also apply shoes.

[Androcles]

I agree....but do barefoot trimmers go through a stringent testing program (for example, BF is a CJF and it took years to achieve that status)

Some do, most don't. To both parts of your question. A few BF trimmers go thru the rigorous (and time consuming and expensive) programs, most don't saying they can't afford it and thinking learning out of a book/DVD/online/seminar is just as good. How many farriers go thru that certification/program? I'd be surprised if it's as high as 5%.


Does that exist in the trimmer world?

(Obviously I am not well versed in the barefoot trimmer world!)

Thing is there is no 'trimmer world'. It's more divided and fractious than even the farrier world. The people who've gone thru different programs don't agree amongst themselves, and the 'read and rasp wannabes' don't even aspire to that level of knowledge. You can probably correlate this to the 'farrier world' with the exception of 'name gurus'.

I think the onus is on the owners here to be educated. This is a truly caveat emptor field. There's no single organizaton to decide who is right and who is wrong and in a way that's a good thing because it doesn't make someone the 'ruling class', but it leaves the owner responsible.

[Androcles]

Ditto. I am horrified at alot of what I see come out of BOTH AHA and AANHCP circuits.

Huh. No kidding? What is AHA even anyway? I mean it's not a teaching program like AANCHP, why would you lump them together like this? I thought it was a 'club' where whoever got in first told everybody else trying to get in what they thought of them. Do they even have a teaching or trimming philosophy?

[matryoshka]

Mind you these barefoot trimmers all held some sort of certification.

This is not just one barefoot trimmer either. Is this an epidemic in my area?This is why I don't have a certification! I might become a bad trimmer!! ;)

Seriously, bad trimmers are about as common as bad farriers. Just because they are devoted to keeping horses bare does not mean they are good at their job, any more than owning an anvil and a forge makes a farrier good at his job.

I see plenty of poor work among barefooters. I don't start threads about it, any more than I start threads about bad farriery. It's pointless.

The best protection for every horse is an educated owner. The more owners know about what makes a hoof healthy, what constitutes "balance," and how to evaluate the trim and/or shoeing, the better off horses will be in general. Then the bad guys, both trimmers and farriers, may get a call once, but won't be invited back. Whenever a new trimmer brags about how many new clients they get, my response is that they need to see whether they keep those clients.

[LMH]

This is why I don't have a certification! I might become a bad trimmer!!

Seriously, bad trimmers are about as common as bad farriers. Just because they are devoted to keeping horses bare does not mean they are good at their job, any more than owning an anvil and a forge makes a farrier good at his job.

I see plenty of poor work among barefooters. I don't start threads about it, any more than I start threads about bad farriery. It's pointless.

The best protection for every horse is an educated owner. The more owners know about what makes a hoof healthy, what constitutes "balance," and how to evaluate work, the better off horses will be in general. And the bad guys, both trimmers and farriers, may get a call once, but won't be invited back. Whenever a new trimmer brags about how many new clients they get, my response is that they need to see whether they keep those clients.

:yes:

[Daydream Believer]

This is why I don't have a certification! I might become a bad trimmer!! ;)

Seriously, bad trimmers are about as common as bad farriers. Just because they are devoted to keeping horses bare does not mean they are good at their job, any more than owning an anvil and a forge makes a farrier good at his job.

I see plenty of poor work among barefooters. I don't start threads about it, any more than I start threads about bad farriery. It's pointless.

The best protection for every horse is an educated owner. The more owners know about what makes a hoof healthy, what constitutes "balance," and how to evaluate the trim and/or shoeing, the better off horses will be in general. Then the bad guys, both trimmers and farriers, may get a call once, but won't be invited back. Whenever a new trimmer brags about how many new clients they get, my response is that they need to see whether they keep those clients.

Very well said! :D

[rainechyldes]

There are bad doctors, bad welders, bad farriers, bad trimmers, bad cooks, bad plumbers, and just as many excellent of all the aforementioned professionals. You tend o hear about the'bad' of something, rather then the good, because thats the way people are.

Hows the marketing thing go:
A satisfied client will tell 1 person about the good (fill in the blank) they used.
An unhappy client will tell 10 people about the horrible (fill in the blank) they used.

Farriers can be trimmers, my farrier maintains all the my barefoot competition horses, and he shoes my shod competition horses. I don't feel the need to go find a barefoot trimmer to make that extra trip to my barn for my unshod horses. If I have no shod horses,, I'd probably still use my farrier, he's excellent to work with. And I do say 'work with' because its a business relationship with mutual respect. If there' a problem/issue, either of us note, it's discussed, weighed, and then we proceed with whatever the decision is. That is a good farrier. I would expect the same from a trimmer, if I had one.

trimmers can't be farriers, unless they used to be a farrier (ie, training.education.)

[nadasy]

Tom,
Precisely why I go to Mike Wildenstein to shoe my horses, or trim them if they don't wear shoes-(somehow I thought this was what we were talking about) which is exactly WHY I'm not a farrier. :)

I apologize for being so quick to write, as obviously I did not explain myself very well. I guess what I did mean is that in fact, Farriers like Mike W. and a few others that I know, trim horses that do not wear shoes, and they trim them correctly. They are barefoot no? My paragraph structure could have been better.:eek:
Dinah

[JB]

Since BTR is no longer here, trainwrecks are far less likely.

Don't count on it. I can think of several folks right off the top of my head who are very, very good at starting and continuing wrecks.

[grayarabpony]

Since BTR is no longer here, trainwrecks are far less likely.

I've seen horses crippled by bad trimming and by bad farriery. Like anything else, there are good and bad in any profession.

I agree with your second statement, but not your first.

[sketcher]

While there are other 'trainwreckers' on this board, I have to say it is nice to be able to read through threads where there is contention and strong disagreement but people still seem to have respectful conversation. Those particular threads would certainly have been derailed up until a few days ago.

[AZ Native]

Ditto. I am horrified at alot of what I see come out of BOTH AHA and AANHCP circuits. That's the main reason I chose to remain "Independent" apart from these organizations.

Exactly.
DH just picked up a new horse with uneven heels, infection, and just plain crappy trim from a trimmer that charges $ 80 a trim !!:mad:

[Buffyblue]

My horse wears shoes in front and no shoes behind. My very excellent CJF manages to both shoe her front feet and trim her hinds. Best of both worlds, I think!

[equineartworks]

My horse wears shoes in front and no shoes behind. My very excellent CJF manages to both shoe her front feet and trim her hinds. Best of both worlds, I think!

:yes:

Mine are not shod (with the exception of Dumplin's little shoe and that is a glue on) but I know that all my beastie bases are covered with my farriers excellent care. :)

[matryoshka]

That is absurd. Should people just not get college degrees or welding certification, or millwright, or anything because there are bad ones out there that are also certified? :confused: Wow, I disagree strongly with your argument.Sheesh. It was a joke; i.e. not meant to be taken seriously. Hence the start of the next paragraph with the word "Seriously".

[caballus]

While it's trendy for some folks to claim there's a difference between the various "barefoot trims" and the traditional trim farriers use when leaving a horse barefooted, other than Strasser's invasive butchery, there's not a nickel's worth of difference between them. Why Tom ... I do believe we agree on something again! EXCEPT that ... while there *shouldn't* be a nickel's worth of difference between them too many times people see hooves trimmed to have a shoe put on and then left bare. IMO, that is NOT an adequate nor correct trim for a barefooted horse.

However, that being said, a correct trim for the hoof-in-hand on the horse-in-hand is a correct trim. Period. Doesn't matter if Goofy, himself, did the trim. It's either correct for that individual or not. :)

[Tom Bloomer]

Why Tom ... I do believe we agree on something again! EXCEPT that ... while there *shouldn't* be a nickel's worth of difference between them too many times people see hooves trimmed to have a shoe put on and then left bare. IMO, that is NOT an adequate nor correct trim for a barefooted horse.
Here's a story to ponder:

Three weeks ago I hauled my horses to an AFA certification to be used as "test horses." They were trimmed and shod all around. Two of the horses were shod by CJF test candidates. Both CJF candidates passed their exams, then pulled the shoes and left my horses' feet bare. The candidate shoeing the third horse was stopped during the exam before nailing up the shoes. So the third horse was trimmed for shoes and then left bare.

I left their feet exactly as they were because I wanted to see what would happen if they were trimmed to accept a shoe and then just left that way. All 3 of my horses came home barefoot with trims to AFA "shoeing" standards. They did not have the edges of their walls beveled or rounded up. In 3 weeks, not one of them has any chipping or cracking on the edges of the walls or wearing away in the quarters. They are just starting to wear in a breakover roll in their front toes. I don't know if having the bottoms of their feet "seared" by a hot shoe has anything to do with the feet not chipping. Maybe I'll trim them flat again next week and see what happens without having the bottom of the wall seared by a hot shoe.

Needless to say, my observations have caused me to "question" the bevel and the roll on a barefoot trim. :yes:

[LMH]

Tom-are your horses on hard or soft ground?

I actually have some thoughts to add to yours...but I may wait to see the results of your field test!

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom-are your horses on hard or soft ground?

I actually have some thoughts to add to yours...but I may wait to see the results of your field test!
Deep mud, hard packed sand, and sod. We get thunder showers and wet dew at night, followed by hot days where the flat spots dry out and get hard. Lately they have been getting a lot of "free choice" exercise running away from or bucking off the green heads and horse flys. :lol:

[matryoshka]

....They are just starting to wear in a breakover roll in their front toes. I don't know if having the bottoms of their feet "seared" by a hot shoe has anything to do with the feet not chipping. Maybe I'll trim them flat again next week and see what happens without having the bottom of the wall seared by a hot shoe.

Needless to say, my observations have caused me to "question" the bevel and the roll on a barefoot trim. :yes:The fact that they are wearing in a breakover roll says that perhaps that works for the foot. Some of us just put that in there for them. ;)

It seems to me that plenty of horses do just fine with the trim described. Some don't. I don't put a roll on every hoof I trim, depending on how I see the wall wearing between trims. Some I just bevel. But I always do either a bevel or a roll. Was taught to bevel by the CJF who taught my basic farrier class.

Providing a good roll for horses used on rocky trails does seem to give them protection to chipping. It's rare for horses I trim to chip unless the trim is overdue.

[matryoshka]

... But you, and others here are also "self taught" and I'd dare bet your work is a whole lot better than that! ...If by "self taught" you mean that attending a farrier course to start with, being mentored by several local farriers, and attending clinics to update my education every year is the same as self taught, then you are correct. By that definition I'm self taught. I did not pick up a rasp and nippers and start trimming without any instruction, nor did I watch a few videos or attend one clinic and just dig in.

There's a difference between being taught and learning. Some things can be taught, others have to be learned. I suspect that the bad trimmers (certified or not) and bad farriers were taught but didn't learn.

I've taught exactly one person to trim based on my reasoning, but she had to learn to be a good trimmer. Her trim is not identical to mine, but I got her thinking, and now she thinks for herself and has built up a clientele. I'm not a good teacher, but she happens to be a good learner. ;) We get together periodically to compare notes and share new things we've learned. The learning flows both ways.

[grayarabpony]

Needless to say, my observations have caused me to "question" the bevel and the roll on a barefoot trim. :yes:

I actually don't have any questions about it. Now that I roll the walls, there is hardly any cracking. When professionals trimmed my horses' feet and the walls were not rolled, they had a great deal of cracking. We are not having a wet summer, the ground isn't that soft.

The rolling has made a big difference.

[grayarabpony]

There's a difference between being taught and learning. Some things can be taught, others have to be learned. I suspect that the bad trimmers (certified or not) and bad farriers were taught but didn't learn.



Isn't that the truth. Some of the crap I've seen surely CANNOT be taught in farrier school, and Pete Ramey isn't telling people to whack their horses' feet off.

[Daydream Believer]

I actually don't have any questions about it. Now that I roll the walls, there is hardly any cracking. When professionals trimmed my horses' feet and the walls were not rolled, they had a great deal of cracking. We are not having a wet summer, the ground isn't that soft.

The rolling has made a big difference.

Same here. As I said earlier on this thread or another...I was hurt and unable to trim for a few weeks. A number of my clients had their horses done by local farriers as I could not make the appt. Not one of the farriers rolled or beveled the walls even though a few of my clients asked them to do it "like our trimmer does." One farrier flat refused to. I did those horses three weeks later after those trims because their feet were chipping and cracking badly. All of my clients complained at how poorly the farriers' trims held up to mine and said they felt the roll I do makes all the difference.

It may well be our soft wet ground here as compared to Delaware..I don't know but feet will come apart if you don't do that roll in this area.

[luckeys71]

My previous farrier (who I really liked) threatened to have to put shoes on my WB filly every summer she did her, but didn't because she didn't like putting shoes on young horses, due to the amount of chipping and chunking off. Said filly, is now 5 yo, over 16.2hh and starting to jump. She's been done by a barefoot trimmer for about a year and a half and I am thrilled about how well her hooves hold up. Sometimes some mild chipping the last week before her trim, but nothing a couple strokes with the rasp doesn't clean up. I find it amazing. She has always had excellent quality hooves, though. My trainer, a very experienced hunter trainer, is just thrilled that she is happy barefoot. I hope she can continue as her workload increases (she jumps FABULOUS). My trimmer has told me all along that she would support my decision if I felt she needed shoes in the future. She, also, has talked about trying other options, like casting and glue ons.

[Tom Bloomer]

The fact that they are wearing in a breakover roll says that perhaps that works for the foot. Some of us just put that in there for them. ;)
Generally I put an agressive bevel in the toe between the pillars on fronts and a mild roll between the pillars on hinds. I was very surprised that with the toes left sharp following the certification trims that they didn't show up with a roll or chipping in the front in the first few days. It appears that the roll is wearing in at about the same rate as the new growth. OHOH, these are my horses - so they probably are deliberately trying to keep their feet nice and chip free just to mess with my head. Then just about the time I am ready to trim them again they will all bust their toes off and chip out their quarters. :lol:

[Tom Bloomer]

It may well be our soft wet ground here as compared to Delaware..I don't know but feet will come apart if you don't do that roll in this area.
I haven't ever "not done" a roll or bevel on a barefoot trim and I haven't seen any freshly trimmed feet without a roll or bevel except on a few horses that were just nipper trimmed by a hack. The ones that were just nipper trimmed were, you know, twice a year - need it or not brood mares. They were all flared and split anyway. I'm thinking the mud/sand combination on my farm is partially responsible for what I'm seeing. Some days my horses have 1/2" of mud caked on their feet - like a dried mud cast. Could be a new form of "natural hoof protection." :lol:

[JB]

Deep mud, hard packed sand, and sod. We get thunder showers and wet dew at night, followed by hot days where the flat spots dry out and get hard. Lately they have been getting a lot of "free choice" exercise running away from or bucking off the green heads and horse flys. :lol:
There ya go ;)

A flat "trimmed for shoes but left bare" weight-bearing surface of the foot would absolutely not hold up in my environment. Rock-hard red clay without rain for at least weeks on end is absolutely like concrete. The less then stupendous feet will flare and/or chip/crack. The stupendous feet will just grow taller, only cracking if they encounter a rock or something. We haven't had a rain that gets rid of the ground cracks since early-mid June, at least. The ground is HARD.

Your "hard packed sand" in no way comes close to the NC Summer hard-packed red clay. Not even close.

So, it doesn't surprise me that you're not seeing an issue with not beveling the walls :)

[Daydream Believer]

Well JB...we have sort of the kind of the same sort of footing he has...kind of a sandy loam...but truly the feet don't hold up well here without the roll. However we have little mud that lasts...our soil drains very well so it becomes parched and dry fast. Lots of grass and heavy dew too and I think that wet/dry cycle really messes with hooves.

Tom...I know the kind you mean...trimmed yearly...UGH...not my favorite trims. Do you charge more for those trims? They are usually way more work than a horse that is done regularly.

Denise...good to see you here! Thanks for your input. :-)