Dog training ? - Anxiety/submission and men (kind of long)

[kdow]

Yeah, more about Pirate. :)

When we got him, he clearly had some kind of intimidation issue with larger men. Greeting them is totally fine - he'll go up to ANYONE, practically, to say hi and get a pet or two - but if it's a male in his 'social group'/pack like my dad, if the guy did anything that Pirate could possibly interpret as 'dominant' or 'aggressive' then Pirate would just basically go so submissive it was like his personality switched off. (Tail down, ears down, worried face, generally he'd sit or lie down, clearly very anxious and confused about what he was supposed to be doing, etc.)

He's improved a LOT since then (I mean, at one point my dad just calling his name loudly to call him back at the dog park was enough to make him go all big-eyed and worried) but I recently noticed that he still seems to get a lot more nervous/worked up if he's being held by a male for something than if he's being held by a female. (Specifically, my dad holding him still gently to help me get the flea stuff on was FAR more worrying to him than when I was holding him a while back so a female vet tech could check out a scrape and bruise he'd given himself on our rock wall. Even though I'm quite sure the latter situation was more painful and generally unpleasant.)

I'd really like to work on this to get him more comfortable, because honestly if he did hurt himself seriously, Pirate is big enough that I just couldn't pick him up and carry him to the car to go to the vet, or what have you. My dad would have to help. And since being in pain would be worrying enough for him, I would want the rest of the experience to be as un-exciting as possible, including being physically handled by my dad.

(I will add here, btw, that I am absolutely certain my dad is not doing anything bad to Pirate. Like I said, he came to us MUCH worse about this than he is now, and I think a lot of the improvement is probably because my dad does a lot of positive things with him - treats, walks, car rides - and is always very consistent and fair with his expectations - be polite on the leash, no jumping, same sort of stuff that I expect.)

I'm just not sure what the best way is to go about 'desensitizing' him here - is it something where just more time and exposure to my dad being positive/fair is the best solution, or should we try to do some sort of active 'training'? If so, what?

I don't expect to necessarily get things totally perfect - he did have five years of life before we got him, and who knows what experiences during that time - but like I said, I want to do what can be done. Like you'd get a horse used to the farrier handling his hooves and that sort of thing - they don't have to ever love it, but it should be something that can be done without being a Traumatic Ordeal.

(I also want to clarify that it is very much an extreme display of submission. It's not like he's out of control the rest of the time, and then starts behaving himself. He's very good with me, responsive and polite, eager to please. The extreme I'm talking about is where I'd almost have to say he thinks there's nothing he can do TO please except be as submissive as possible and hope that's enough. It's really kind of depressing to see.)

[kookicat]

I bet it's just going to take time and patience to teach him to trust men. Have you tried clicker training him? Your dad could use it to reward him when he's not being submissive, and it would reinforce the behaviour you want. Plus, the mindset of 'what do you want me to do next?' will give him something else to focus on.

[carp]

A dog prone to fright bite visits my barn on occasion. Being a herding type dog, she also tends to sneak up behind people to nip them. Greaaat. I discovered she's a lot more manageable by if I ignore her completely until she does something positive (anything at all: nosing a ball, sniffing my hand, sitting, it doesn't matter.) Then I praise the bejeezus out of her. This opens her mind to the idea that the next encounter might be good, so she will nervously skulk around in my peripheral vision. When she does something else good, I heap more praise on her. After that she relaxes a lot, and I can interact with her like a more normal dog.

[Bluey]

Some dogs are like that, super sensitive and no one necessarily abused them.
You can keep working to make the dog fit what you want it to be, but it will only go so far and revert to what it really is when the chips are down.

We had a puppy mill sheltie like that and no amount of training quite got her over her super sensitivity.
Form all the dogs we had, one another sweet, smart sheltie with a starling disposition, this one little shy thing, Shadow, was the only dog I never would quite trust off leash in an open place, other than at home.
At dog classes and shows, she was always on leash or in a building, because I knew that if she ever panicked and ran off, she may lose it, not listen and come back.

Your dog will slowly get better and maybe even come out of his shell, but if not, that is ok too.:)

[hb]

My dog was initially very frightened of people in general and men much more than women. The thing that helped her the most was taking her to obedience and basic agility classes. She gained a great deal of confidence from these experiences.

The agility classes were not competitive at all, they were intro classes for fun with a variety of dog breeds attending. I signed up for them to work with off-leash control, since my dogs are off leash and following me around while I work around the farm. But as she learned new things and got praised and knew she was being a good dog she also became more confident.

This confidence stayed with her after the classes were finished. She is no longer as afraid of new people or new situations. One thing I liked about the classes was that it made her more more comfortable without forcing her to experience things that frightened her. Making her more confident in general helped without specific de-sensitizing.

[kdow]

I bet it's just going to take time and patience to teach him to trust men. Have you tried clicker training him? Your dad could use it to reward him when he's not being submissive, and it would reinforce the behaviour you want. Plus, the mindset of 'what do you want me to do next?' will give him something else to focus on.

I was actually contemplating clicker training anyway because it seems like it should also, done properly, be very clear and so less confusing/worrying for him. (Plus if he gets something wrong, he just doesn't get a treat. A tragedy, I'm sure, but not something to *worry* about. :) ) So it seems like it might be a good general confidence builder for him - lots of chances to do something very clearly Right, and no being yelled at.

(Not that we yell at him now - we reserve the Voice From On High 'No' for serious major 'you need to stop what you are doing RIGHT THIS SECOND' type things, where it's basically an issue of safety that they stop. But he seems to anticipate being yelled at a lot - it's like his default state if he's not sure what's going on.)

[kdow]

Some dogs are like that, super sensitive and no one necessarily abused them.
You can keep working to make the dog fit what you want it to be, but it will only go so far and revert to what it really is when the chips are down.

[snipped a bit]

Your dog will slowly get better and maybe even come out of his shell, but if not, that is ok too.:)

I know there's a tendency for everyone with a rescue to THINK their dog was abused, and some dogs are Just Like that even if they've had a super-happy life. :) (Though with Pirate there are some very specific things he has issues with, where lots of other stuff you'd expect to be possibly scary are not an issue at all, so it does sometimes make you wonder.) But in any event, it doesn't really matter because who he is now, however he got that way, is what I've got. :)

He is a super dog just as he is, pretty much the perfect 'first' dog for me (we've always had family dogs, but he's in theory mine rather than belonging to the whole family) so if he stays a little nervous and unsure about stuff, that's not the end of the world.

Like I said, I mostly just want to work on this to see if we can get any improvement at all as a safety/emergency handling thing. If we can't, then we'll know that and just keep it in mind if there is an issue, but it seems worth a try just because it would make things so much better for him if something did happen and he knew he didn't have to worry about my dad (or another male) picking him up/holding him still. Other than that specific issue, I'm happy to let him just carry on getting more comfortable and more confident at his own pace. :)

For anyone following the other post about his teeth, it does seem like that's actually made a difference to both his health and his mental state. On top of his breath smelling MUCH better, he just seems a bit brighter and happier. So perhaps just that difference will help with his confidence and general level of anxiety/worry. :) (I mean, I know chronic pain can do a number on people in terms of depression and anxiety and so on, so maybe it can mess with animals too.)

[kdow]

A dog prone to fright bite visits my barn on occasion. Being a herding type dog, she also tends to sneak up behind people to nip them. Greaaat. I discovered she's a lot more manageable by if I ignore her completely until she does something positive (anything at all: nosing a ball, sniffing my hand, sitting, it doesn't matter.) Then I praise the bejeezus out of her. This opens her mind to the idea that the next encounter might be good, so she will nervously skulk around in my peripheral vision. When she does something else good, I heap more praise on her. After that she relaxes a lot, and I can interact with her like a more normal dog.

I'd forgotten that I used something kind of like that with Pirate a few times when he'd first arrived and was still very unsure. He has a very solid 'sit' (it's pretty much the only actual command he knew when we got him, as far as we can tell) so asking him to sit and then praising the heck out of him seemed to help out his mental state a lot.

Maybe I'll just suggest my dad tries that with him randomly to add in some positive 'reward' type interaction between them while we investigate clicker training options locally. (I've read about it, but it never seems to quite connect, so I think it's one of those things where I'd do better seeing it in person a couple of times, y'know?)

[Bluey]

I think that most any dog class would be a great way to teach a dog and thru that they gain so much confidence, even the most confident dogs do.

I have yet to see any dog get worse by coming to one of our dog classes, be it household manners, clicker, obedience or agility.
Practically every dog, once the focus is outside of itself, blooms past what the owner thought it had in that dog.

I wonder some times if "a mind is a terrible thing to waste" applies to our companion animals.
Many, many times we don't really try to raise or teach them consistently and seriously about the world around them, just take so much for granted with what they are and should learn just by osmosis.
Just because they are not an obviously immature. bumbling child, but neurologically and mentally all there so early, we seem to tend to let them learn much on their own.
Since all a dog has to do in it's life is learn about us and our world, we get by, they do learn so much on their own.
I will contend that, if we make a serious effort to teach them also, their learning curve is shortened considerably and there are less trouble spots.

I know that most anyone here can train a horse or dog or gerbil and do a good job, as the kind of person interested in these forums and discussions is already interested in these topics.

Now we have to keep remiding ourselves to do it and use our imagination, not coast on what we know or worked before, but focus intensely on every one of our charges.

The trouble with naturally or made dogs of vacillant temperament is that in the wrong situation, they can come to harm to themselves or others.
That can happen with any dog, but with those, it is more apt to.

I know that you will get him as adapted to living with you and yours as you possibly can and interacting with him one on one thru an activity like dog classes is one of the better ways we have today with dogs.:cool:

[wendy]

my police-reject-malinois was terrified of men touching/approaching him when we got him (wonder why? some of the old-school methods still used by many to train police dogs are horribly brutal); it's the purely-positive/ clicker based agility and obedience training that cured him. We'd go to class, there would be men there, we would ignore the men and reward him for being successful at his tasks. We'd go to trials and ignore the men and he'd be successful at his tasks. He's still uncomfortable with men touching him but the extreme terror (which in his case often caused defensive aggressive reactions) is gone, and he can handle having men right next to him, and he'll actually play with men he knows now.

[Bluey]

my police-reject-malinois was terrified of men touching/approaching him when we got him (wonder why? some of the old-school methods still used by many to train police dogs are horribly brutal); it's the purely-positive/ clicker based agility and obedience training that cured him. We'd go to class, there would be men there, we would ignore the men and reward him for being successful at his tasks. We'd go to trials and ignore the men and he'd be successful at his tasks. He's still uncomfortable with men touching him but the extreme terror (which in his case often caused defensive aggressive reactions) is gone, and he can handle having men right next to him, and he'll actually play with men he knows now.

I have to say, in defense of dog trainers, that I learned in the early 1970's to train dogs with a retired police officer that bred and was showing GSD.
Many of the dogs he raised and trained were in big demand and went to police departments clear to the Midwest, he had a waiting list for every dog he had ready to go.
Other police departments sent officers to learn from him.
Along with that, he conducted regular obedience classes and there is where I learned.

There were all kinds of people and clients there all the time and not one, ever saw any dog mistreated.
He became very grumpy if someone would even slightly jerk on a dog, saying your timing was wrong and the dog paid for it, pay attention.:eek:
You didn't do that again.

In the man work, his dogs were so well trained and bred for intense focus and drive that they were extremely controllable, so no harsh methods were ever needed.

I think that, later, when some of the other european working dog breeds were imported, that had a little sharper temperament, that is when some trainers just could not cope and some became a little too heavy handed.
I have a friend with Tervuren and she spends long time as a puppy just having us come and go, they are all a little bit touchy.
They are extremely athletic dogs, so she does great in agility, but at the cost of having dogs that are a little harder to live with.

The same adjustment happened to cowboys when, after being used to the Driftwoods and Hancock and such horses, the Doc Bars came onto the scene.

Those old tough rough and tumble, forgiving horses they were used to make do things and the horses kept on ticking, now the more athletic, nervous and temperamentally soft Doc Bars really made the cowboys with less horsemanship finesse have trouble getting along with them.

Eventually, the better cowboys became used to them and today, more bred down from those early waspy little horses, they are adequate for most horsemen.

Those are generalizations, you can always find the exceptions, but it does show how temperament can be so important as to affect our training.

[kdow]

I think that most any dog class would be a great way to teach a dog and thru that they gain so much confidence, even the most confident dogs do.

I have yet to see any dog get worse by coming to one of our dog classes, be it household manners, clicker, obedience or agility.
Practically every dog, once the focus is outside of itself, blooms past what the owner thought it had in that dog.

I wonder some times if "a mind is a terrible thing to waste" applies to our companion animals.
Many, many times we don't really try to raise or teach them consistently and seriously about the world around them, just take so much for granted with what they are and should learn just by osmosis.

I definitely think that as a general rule, we tend to forget about mental stimulation when considering the lifestyle of a companion animal. I know a lot of times people who get 'working' breeds tend to run into problems that are basically down to the dog just not having anything to do mentally, even if the dog gets plenty of physical exercise.

Heck, our other dog is a working/hunting-line Cocker Spaniel and while she does very well with us, I can easily see how she might have developed all kinds of behavior problems if she'd ended up in a home that wanted to basically treat her as a cute stuffed toy type pet. (She LOOKS like she should be a cute stuffed toy type dog that you just want to cuddle all the time, but that is completely not her idea of a good time. She'd much rather be sniffing around and investigating the world and save up the petting and cuddling for when she feels like a break. :) )

As it is, she needs a lot of mental stimulation (in the form of going places and investigating things and meeting new people) and we've been discussing trying some trick training or finding a hunting dog club or something like that with her just to give her even more to do and introduce a new mental challenge for her. :)

With Pirate we've introduced him to going out and about with us a little gradually (he seemed like he hadn't gotten to do much of ANYTHING before he came to us) but it definitely made a difference to his general personality/mood when he was settled in.

[kdow]

my police-reject-malinois was terrified of men touching/approaching him when we got him (wonder why? some of the old-school methods still used by many to train police dogs are horribly brutal); it's the purely-positive/ clicker based agility and obedience training that cured him. We'd go to class, there would be men there, we would ignore the men and reward him for being successful at his tasks. We'd go to trials and ignore the men and he'd be successful at his tasks. He's still uncomfortable with men touching him but the extreme terror (which in his case often caused defensive aggressive reactions) is gone, and he can handle having men right next to him, and he'll actually play with men he knows now.

If I had to guess at where Pirate's issues come from (assuming they're not just how he is normally) I would guess 'poorly applied old-school training methods' - meaning a correction-based method where the person or people involved didn't understand appropriate timing for corrections and also didn't understand how to present the tasks. So to his mind training would have basically been a lot of confusion followed by random corrections.

No matter what method of training you prefer, one of the most important elements is how you present things to the animal - many things have to be broken down into simpler steps, and any time something is going wrong, rather than immediately assuming the animal is just being 'difficult' it's important to assess if you're presenting a fair and reasonable task and being consistent about it.

[kookicat]

Sounds like clicker training would be the way to go with him. :)

Could you give him a treat ball too? Something like this? (http://www.edirectory.co.uk/pf/105749/mia/pid/10282588)

My sensitive dog loves his, and it keeps him entertained for hours.