hoof supplement for bad tb hooves

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

hi, about a month ago, i got an 11 year old ottb. he was in pretty poor health condition. you could see his ribs, his hips stuck out horribly, and his feet were SO overgrown.. it looked like they hadn't been trimmed in at least 6 months. instead of being fairly round like a normal hoof, they looked like lily pads. he was VERY lame, he couldn't trot at all. the day i went out to see him, though, i fell in love, so i called a farrier and got his hooves trimmed asap. they couldn't take very much off, so it had to be done in small amounts. as i said, i've had him for about a month and he's had grain twice a day along with fertilized pasture all day and night (he was brought in at night in the beginning to prevent colic and founder, but he was gradually intro'd to the pasture and is fine now) he's about to see the farrier again and have his hooves trimmed for the third time since i met him.

my dilemma is: he's a tb. naturally, they don't have the best feet. but since he was malnourished, his feet are horrible. he gets cracks a week after trims. and they aren't just suddle cracks. an entire chunk of his wall came off the other day (i'll post pics). i use hoof heal conditioner every few days because my farrier swore by it, but i'm not seeing any improvement. i know it's only been a month and i cannot expect a miracle from a good diet to take effect on his hooves (and weight) instantly. but what i need is a really good hoof supplement that has a lot of biotin and methionine (something that contributes to his overall health would be a plus)

please let me know your suggestions.


http://i29.tinypic.com/1z6vy52.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/2ih1awn.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/iwkv2a.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/n33n2o.jpg
^^ this is from the rain we've been getting.. i'm not sure how to fix it. it's been getting better since the rain is beginning to lighten up, but it scared me so badly when i first saw it.

http://i25.tinypic.com/afkmc2.jpg
^^ this was before the chunk broke off... you can see the crack beginning to form. sad thing is this was only two days before it broke :/

http://i28.tinypic.com/35akbx2.jpg
^^ him about three weeks before i brought him home..

http://i25.tinypic.com/1e2pzc.jpg
^^ him now -- after about a month of good food, daily grooming, and love :)

[EqTrainer]

First of all, good on you for taking this guy. Maybe someone here can ID him.

Second, where are you located? The only time I have seen that is when the horse was from out west and had selenium poisioning. I wonder if when he was starving he could have eaten something toxic? Regardless, I think I'd call the vet. Let us know what happens!

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

i live in south carolina. the girl i got him from lives about an hour south, but still in south carolina. he was given to me for free because she could no longer afford to take care of him.

and i've heard of selenium poisoning. but i've only heard cases of it from adding up too many supplements that contain it. i'm pretty sure horses are to get no more than 1mg of selenium a day. but nothing that leader eats has it in it.

but we have been getting buckets of rain the past few days. one of the girls i board with has seen it before in her mare because she will stand in puddles and she told me to use a hardener. and since the rain has lessened the cracks have gotten better (the cracks are in all four hooves.... right by the cornet band :/ )

i've yet to find a vet nearby where i live (i had his vaccines and coggins done before i brought him here) but i'm sure i can find one within an hours drive.

he really is such a sweet horse. back in his day he was a HJ. he wasn't a very fast race horse and only had 11 starts, but he was an excellent jumper and he sure loves doing it.

[EqTrainer]

Well, unlikely on the selenium then :) but maybe he ate something else...

I would, at the very least, get your farrier to look at it. Hopefully he/she can identify the actual type of crack it is. Are you quite sure its a crack and not new growth? With him finally getting food he will have some rings on his feet from the changes.. perhaps this is it..

but definately do get someone else to look at it.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

yes, there's a definite "gap" between his hoof and his cornet band. when i first saw it, i swore it looked as if his hooves were going to fall off. the farrier is coming out in six days (when i get paid). he was the first person i called when i noticed it, and he said it was indeed because of the excessive rain, and he said he would take a look at it. it's good that leader is due for a trim anyway.

as for the chuck coming off--i've heard that hooves mainly crack because they need to be trimmed in the first place. is this true?

[EqTrainer]

Ask your farrier if you can postdate a check. If it truly is separating, you need professional help sooner rather than later. A vet would be better, but the farrier is going to at least confirm what you suspect. Moisture alone will not cause a foot to crack like that.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

alright, i will definitely ask him. he knows leader has horrible feet, so hopefully he won't mind. thank you very much for your help. did you happen to think of any good supplements?

[Hampton Bay]

We sometimes have buckets and buckets of rain here too, and I have never seen a crack like that on any of my horses. There has to be something else going on.

Before you look to supplements, take a loot at the rest of his diet. You mention grain. What kind? You said he is on fertilized pasture, but how much space does he have? Does he spend most of his time grazing when he is out? He may be getting enough nutrition to support hoof health, but you just don't see it yet because you have only had him a short time.

If you do need a supplement, I have had good luck with SmartHoof. My big mare finally doesn't get thrushy anymore after I started her on it.

Also, the Hoof Heal is great to help with thrush, but if you are painting it on the wall you are really just wasting it. Since it is oil-based, it will help keep some of the water away from the hooves, but it will not help "moisturize" them. There is really not much you can put on the outside of a hoof that will help it.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I would for sure consult your vet and farrier on the matter.

My Thoroughbred had great hooves. I'm quite surprised.

I do try my best to keep him on a diet that is correct in vitamins and minerals, provides quality protein and fats.

What type of grain is the horse eating?


Also, you've only had him a month you said, so odds are these hooves still need a lot of work.

[spotmenow]

Bioflax 20 and Smarthoof by Smartpak are both good, affordable choices for a supplement. There is a free shipping code for Smartpak right now as well-both of those supplements are sold there.

However, I take exception to the comment that "all TBs have crappy feet". I don't even own a full TB, just crosses, and I think its more a matter of a lot of TBs having crappy nutrition and/or farrier care. Just my personal pet peeve...sorry.;)

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

right now he is fed seminole high efficiency. he was on seminole perfect ten, which had 10% fat, but now he's moved down to HE with 8% fat. here's a link: http://www.seminolefeed.com/ProductSheetsforWeb/BRHE.htm

he shares 15 acres of pasture with another gelding and a mare. he ALWAYS has his face buried in the grass. he also gets SO excited when it's feeding time. i'm sure it's because he isn't used to being fed this well, and i'm hoping he will calm down in time once he realizes his food isn't going anywhere.

i'm really fixed on seminole feed.. but are there any ingredients feed-wise that i should be looking for?

and i love smart pak :) it's where i get my mirra coat and msm. where is the code for free shipping at? because that would sure help.

and about the hoof heal.. that sounds about right. i don't know what my farrier was getting at saying that it was a miracle. he told me that if i used it for 1 month, leader would be able to wear shoes.. i don't think so lol.

[Hampton Bay]

How much of that feed is he getting? Also, I too love Seminole feeds, but you might want to consider something a bit lower in starch. Their Wellness line is really good.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

How much of that feed is he getting? Also, I too love Seminole feeds, but you might want to consider something a bit lower in starch. Their Wellness line is really good.

I agree.


Also, why does the horse have to wear shoes?

I am sure you can get his hooves on the right track and once you get the correct hoof form see how he does barefoot. Right now it's not fair to judge him on how he'd do barefoot or shod since his feet are such a mess to begin with.


It rained 27 days here in June and did not see my guy's feet do anything like that in regards to what's happening around the hairline. It just looks odd to me, but maybe it's just the picture.

You can try a hoof supplement if you'd like. I don't have one to suggest since I've never used any. I do use Omega Horseshine which supposedly helps the hoof. It gives a great coat for sure! I've always gotten complements on my TB's feet. It could be his diet or his environment, or just him. Perhaps get some suggestions from your vet.

[jenm]

My TB had terrible feet when I got her. I put her on Farrier's Formula and now her feet look fantastic. Even my new farrier said she has great feet for a TB.

Farrier's Formula is a bit pricey, but well worth it.

Good luck to you!

[jaimebaker]

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Mine had nothing to do with rain though. I went through something similar last year with a mare of mine. Couldn't figure out what caused it. The only thing that changed in her life was spring shots. She could have gotten into a toxic weed. Other than that, the vet couldn't find anything (no selenium poisoning). Xrays were clean. I put her on a 50mg Biotin supplement and her hooves were completely grown out in 4 months.

Here's the supplement

http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&mscssid=7PLC435GSWB68LGNMETG123W6F2Q4P8B&pf_id=11812

Now then, that 'crack' you are seeing, if it's what my horse went through the wall is separated from the white line where that crack is. And the crack your horse has is much, much deeper than my gal's was when it developed. When the horse's hoof grows down to where that crack becomes somewhat weight bearing, those hooves WILL slough off and she may be very sore. My mare never took a lame step until she lost a portion of hoof wall that was almost two inches long. Even then, she was only lame for a couple of days as she had enough heel to keep her soles somewhat off the ground. She had bruising in all four feet, but again, clean xrays. You may need to get the horse trimmed every 3-4 weeks once that crack gets closer to the ground. Again, might not be the same thing my horse went through as hers was on all 4 hooves. Here's some pics from last year. I put her on the high mg Biotin and MSM the day I took these pics since this was the first hoof issue she's ever had that required me to think she needed biotin. The farrier was amazed at how quickly her hooves grew out. I just wanted those cracks gone. Again, they were in all 4 feet.

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/rtfront.jpg
http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/ltfront.jpg

Here's one of the hooves 6 days later and after a trim (so you can see the bruising)

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/todayfoot.jpg

This was 8 weeks after the first set of photos

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/h5.jpg
http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/h6.jpg

This is two weeks after the last batch of pics

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/h10.jpg

Anywho, since yours are just below the coronet band, watch those other hooves. My gal's developed one right behind the other. The front hooves had the worst of it with the worst cracks and bruising, the back hooves had the same horizontal cracks all the way around but didn't have the heavy bruising.

As far as the supplement, I don't use it that often since I rarely need that much Biotin, but when I want a hoof to grow out fast due to injury or trauma such as this it's worked great for me in the past. Good luck!!!

[Equibrit]

I have had very good luck with foot growth and strength by feeding Triple Crown Complete. Check their website; http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/complete.php

All their feeds have Equimix http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/overview2.php which has digestive aides also, and negates the need for additional supplements.

[LMH]

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

I am looking at photos and just see a hoof with no roll (hence cracking and chipping), poor frogs and no definition to the bars.

Is there something more serious in a photo that I can't see?

[jaimebaker]

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

I am looking at photos and just see a hoof with no roll (hence cracking and chipping), poor frogs and no definition to the bars.

Is there something more serious in a photo that I can't see?

The photos towards the bottom of her post. Shows the horizontal crack forming directly below the coronet band all the way around the hoof.

http://i25.tinypic.com/afkmc2.jpg

[LMH]

Ah....thanks.

[IsolaBella09]

We've been getting tons of rain here in NJ. One of our older Thoroughbreds gets Farrier's Formula and his feet are great.

[FolsomBlues]

Another vote here for SmartHoof. When I first got my horse we had trouble keeping shoes on him. It took about 6 months of being on the supplement to see really noticeable results, but it was worth it.

[luvmytbs]

The photos towards the bottom of her post. Shows the horizontal crack forming directly below the coronet band all the way around the hoof.

http://i25.tinypic.com/afkmc2.jpg

I have seen this before and it was caused by too much moisture. The horse that showed the same was out 24/7 in lots of wet grass.
It went away as soon as the environment dried up and left no signs on the hoofwall. The only thing I could compare it to is a soaked swelled up cuticle?

[Carol Ames]

Good general nutrition with a complete feed from a major company like. Purina junior or horse;:yes: get a can of cornucrescine:yes: and rub it into his coronet band; some people swear also by reducine
http://store.allvet.org/cohooi.html

[LMH]

Purina?:no:

[ex-racer owner]

I too have an OTTB. The condition of his hooves when I got him were, at best, middle of the road. Of course, they had the requisite underslung heels and LLLOOONNNGGG toes! I had him on one hoof supplement that I saw no benefit from and decided to try the Omega Horseshine. My farrier and I were very surprised with the results! It helped him grow out his heel much faster than being on the other product and helped the overall condition. My sister put her TB on it also and our farrier always comments that they have such nice feet for TBs. Now, I don't see the fantasticly shiney coat that the Omega people claim you will get and have thought about switching to another product (Smartshine Ultra), but I am afraid that my horse's nice hooves will go away. They have improved so much on the Omega Horseshine that I don't want to undo that!

[LMH]

If a horse has underrun heels they are too long.

How does a hoof supplement correct long toes and heels?

I am not debating just not understanding.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Mine had nothing to do with rain though. I went through something similar last year with a mare of mine. Couldn't figure out what caused it. The only thing that changed in her life was spring shots. She could have gotten into a toxic weed. Other than that, the vet couldn't find anything (no selenium poisoning). Xrays were clean. I put her on a 50mg Biotin supplement and her hooves were completely grown out in 4 months.

Here's the supplement

http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&mscssid=7PLC435GSWB68LGNMETG123W6F2Q4P8B&pf_id=11812

Now then, that 'crack' you are seeing, if it's what my horse went through the wall is separated from the white line where that crack is. And the crack your horse has is much, much deeper than my gal's was when it developed. When the horse's hoof grows down to where that crack becomes somewhat weight bearing, those hooves WILL slough off and she may be very sore. My mare never took a lame step until she lost a portion of hoof wall that was almost two inches long. Even then, she was only lame for a couple of days as she had enough heel to keep her soles somewhat off the ground. She had bruising in all four feet, but again, clean xrays. You may need to get the horse trimmed every 3-4 weeks once that crack gets closer to the ground. Again, might not be the same thing my horse went through as hers was on all 4 hooves. Here's some pics from last year. I put her on the high mg Biotin and MSM the day I took these pics since this was the first hoof issue she's ever had that required me to think she needed biotin. The farrier was amazed at how quickly her hooves grew out. I just wanted those cracks gone. Again, they were in all 4 feet.

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/rtfront.jpg
http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/ltfront.jpg

Here's one of the hooves 6 days later and after a trim (so you can see the bruising)

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/todayfoot.jpg

This was 8 weeks after the first set of photos

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/h5.jpg
http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/h6.jpg

This is two weeks after the last batch of pics

http://www.tristanbaker.net/eBay/h10.jpg

Anywho, since yours are just below the coronet band, watch those other hooves. My gal's developed one right behind the other. The front hooves had the worst of it with the worst cracks and bruising, the back hooves had the same horizontal cracks all the way around but didn't have the heavy bruising.

As far as the supplement, I don't use it that often since I rarely need that much Biotin, but when I want a hoof to grow out fast due to injury or trauma such as this it's worked great for me in the past. Good luck!!!



that looks almost like what leader's looks like. before it started growing out of her hoof, was it in the same spot as leaders? did it start at the cornet band? because that's the only difference i'm noticing. except his is in all four hooves.. i took a few pictures today, and it is looking a lot better. the gap has shrunk but it's definitely still there. the thing i just don't get is that it's RIGHT where the hoof STARTS.. right where it attaches itself. how could it possibly be cracked there? but ill show you all the pictures and you can see how it seems to have adhered back together.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2a0c76u.jpg
before and after

http://i29.tinypic.com/r6z2fs.jpg
another picture

and i'm REALLY looking into that 50 mg biotin supplement. that or FF.




Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

I am looking at photos and just see a hoof with no roll (hence cracking and chipping), poor frogs and no definition to the bars.

Is there something more serious in a photo that I can't see?

please forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but what does it mean having a hoof with no roll and no definition to the bars? and how can i fix this? or is it just how he is?

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

I have seen this before and it was caused by too much moisture. The horse that showed the same was out 24/7 in lots of wet grass.
It went away as soon as the environment dried up and left no signs on the hoofwall. The only thing I could compare it to is a soaked swelled up cuticle?

thats EXACTLY what my farrier said. and it's proving to be correct. as we have not had much rain lately and the gap seems to be shrinking.

[LMH]

On a bare hoof you want to 'mustang roll' the wall at ground level to keep it from breaking up. I can sort out a good photo and post.

I will do the same for bars.

It is just something the trimmer should do :)

[wildlifer]

The best thing that I have found that you can put in him is Super Bio-Zin. It is totally worth the price and you won't believe the difference.

I started my guy out on that for about a year until he had a whole new and lovely foot, then switched to SmartHoof, which is also excellent stuff and very affordable. I highly recommend both!

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

i am seeing a lot of recommendation for smarthoof. i really like the price for it. now i'm pretty much stuck between bio-plus, farriers formula, and smarthoof. it's a good thing i don't get paid until friday, that way i have some time to think about it lol.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

On a bare hoof you want to 'mustang roll' the wall at ground level to keep it from breaking up. I can sort out a good photo and post.

I will do the same for bars.

It is just something the trimmer should do :)

hmm, alright. can't wait to see the picture :)
do you think my farrier should've done it already? even though leader's feet aren't trimmed all the way up to where they are supposed to be yet? he doesn't want to take off too much at once.



edit: i just looked it up on google and i see what you mean. it should've been done already. to prevent cracking and i wouldn't doubt that it feels pretty good, too. if my farrier doesn't do it this time, i'm going to say something.

[EAY]

There is a free shipping code for Smartpak right now as well-both of those supplements are sold there.



Anybody know where to find this?

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Anybody know where to find this?

ditto, i'd love to know! :)

[jaimebaker]

that looks almost like what leader's looks like. before it started growing out of her hoof, was it in the same spot as leaders? did it start at the cornet band? because that's the only difference i'm noticing. except his is in all four hooves.. i took a few pictures today, and it is looking a lot better. the gap has shrunk but it's definitely still there. the thing i just don't get is that it's RIGHT where the hoof STARTS.. right where it attaches itself. how could it possibly be cracked there? but ill show you all the pictures and you can see how it seems to have adhered back together.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2a0c76u.jpg
before and after

http://i29.tinypic.com/r6z2fs.jpg
another picture

and i'm REALLY looking into that 50 mg biotin supplement. that or FF.






please forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but what does it mean having a hoof with no roll and no definition to the bars? and how can i fix this? or is it just how he is?

Yep, my gal's starting cracking directly below the coronet band when I discovered it. The first set of pics were a few weeks after I first noticed it.

As far as the hoof with no roll, if a horse has a good 'mustang roll' or bevel to the edge, they often won't chip and crack as often. Your farrier/trimmer can do this. At least, that's how my herd is done and it definitely improved the cracking and splitting (which generally happens when the hooves are overgrown). Can't help you with the bars since I don't know that much about them (I'm not a farrier, just an owner).

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

ah, alright. do you know why it bruised? do you think leader's will start bruising once it grows out? and yes, i'm going to make sure his hooves are rolled before my farrier leaves. i know his hooves are still overgrown, and i'm pretty sure that's why they are cracking so badly (i'm no farrier, but just a guess). hopefully this 4th trim will be the one that can get his hoof to a normal length.

[jaimebaker]

ah, alright. do you know why it bruised? do you think leader's will start bruising once it grows out? and yes, i'm going to make sure his hooves are rolled before my farrier leaves. i know his hooves are still overgrown, and i'm pretty sure that's why they are cracking so badly (i'm no farrier, but just a guess). hopefully this 4th trim will be the one that can get his hoof to a normal length.

Since we never found out the cause, we aren't sure why she bruised. I had two farriers look at her and both said founder. One said she was definitely rotated and sinking on a back foot. Which was funny since, as far as I knew, farriers don't have x-ray vision. I had x-rays pulled and they were perfectly normal on all 4 feet. No founder, no rotation, no signs of anything. Again, she never took a lame step until the hooves began to slough once they grew down (and you can see by the last photo that was quite a ways down). Even when she DID become ouchy, it was only on one hoof and only for 2 days. I have pics somewhere after they began to slough off but I can't find them.

The cracks on your horse do look a bit different in the fact they look deeper. My horse's looked like they were only surface cracks until they grew further down and then the crack itself widened and deepened as the wall separated from the white line. It was scary as crap but in my case, mainly cosmetic.

If your horse is already sore, this may be something different entirely. Not that I'm much help since I don't know what caused my mare's problem. I just know the supplements I got her on and how quickly they grew out.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

well, i'm pretty sure i'm going to buy biotin plus. at least for right now when he needs the heavy amount of biotin. once he just needs it for maintenance i will probably switch to smarthoof because it's so cheap. but he isn't sore at all right now. and in the pictures i posted there is much improvement. so maybe it's not the same thing and hopefully it will not have to grow out through the hoof. but thank you so much for your help. you definitely helped me choose the right supplement :)

[spotmenow]

Smartpak free shipping code: GFS79 until 8/14

[Hampton Bay]

Actually, research has shown that horses very very rarely need any supplemental biotin. They actually manufacture that vitamin themselves. It is more likely the copper or zinc that is low. S I would look for something with copper, zinc, and maybe some omegas, lysine, and methionine.

[jaimebaker]

Actually, research has shown that horses very very rarely need any supplemental biotin. They actually manufacture that vitamin themselves. It is more likely the copper or zinc that is low. S I would look for something with copper, zinc, and maybe some omegas, lysine, and methionine.

For what it's worth, the Biotin supp I have used with excellent results (the 50 mg biotin) has no copper or zinc in it. Still does a good job without those two.

I just started using Horsetech Bio Flax Ultra though that has a full dose of zinc and copper in it to see if I notice a difference. Too soon to tell, but looking forward to good results.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Smartpak free shipping code: GFS79 until 8/14

thank you!

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Actually, research has shown that horses very very rarely need any supplemental biotin. They actually manufacture that vitamin themselves. It is more likely the copper or zinc that is low. S I would look for something with copper, zinc, and maybe some omegas, lysine, and methionine.

hmmm.. really? what do you guys think about these:

http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=2454

or

http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=112

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

For what it's worth, the Biotin supp I have used with excellent results (the 50 mg biotin) has no copper or zinc in it. Still does a good job without those two.

I just started using Horsetech Bio Flax Ultra though that has a full dose of zinc and copper in it to see if I notice a difference. Too soon to tell, but looking forward to good results.

actually, it says it has zinc. is that more important than the copper?

"Equine America® Bio-Plus™ Powder

Provides 50 mg Biotin, a premium dietary supplement formulated to provide supplemental nutritients for hoof growth. Contains high levels of amino acids, methionine, lysine, 200 mg structural sulfur, 50 mg zinc, 25 mg pyridoxine HCL (B-6), 516 mg calcium pantothenate & 1000 mg yucca per scoop. Alfalfa meal base flavored with a blend of spices."

what do you guys think of this? because it's on horse.com and that's where i planned on buying my dewormer.

http://www.horse.com/Bio-Plus-Powder-BWS23.html



also from horse.com, this has copper in the ingredients: http://www.horse.com/For-A-Flex-Biotin-Formula-BWF03.html



also, thank you everyone for your help. who would've known this was going to be such a tough decision?

[jaimebaker]

The Grand Hoof is good stuff. I didn't realize the Bio-plus had the Zinc in it, but according to Smartpak, Zinc is listed as an important ingredient but not copper. Lots of folks have found improvement by adding just copper and zinc to the diet, period.

However, were this my horse, I'd go with the Bio-plus and I'll tell you why. It give QUICK, healthy hoof growth. If I wanted quick hoof growth, I'd go with Bio Plus If I wanted strengthening of the hoof, I'd go with Grand Hoof w/ MSM pellets. If I saw that horizontal crack, I'd want it grown out as soon as possible. Which is why I recommended the Bio-plus. I've used it on 4 horses with excellent results on 3, so-so results on 1. But you never know how well your horse is going to respond to a supplement. I put one of my horses on Farriers Formula for over a year and wasn't impressed, even though folks raved about it. That horse responded better to the Grand Hoof w/MSM.

So, folks can give recommendations all day long, but just because it worked for their horse, doesn't mean it will work for yours. You won't know until you try.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

The Grand Hoof is good stuff. I didn't realize the Bio-plus had the Zinc in it, but according to Smartpak, Zinc is listed as an important ingredient but not copper. Lots of folks have found improvement by adding just copper and zinc to the diet, period.

However, were this my horse, I'd go with the Bio-plus and I'll tell you why. It give QUICK, healthy hoof growth. If I wanted quick hoof growth, I'd go with Bio Plus If I wanted strengthening of the hoof, I'd go with Grand Hoof w/ MSM pellets. If I saw that horizontal crack, I'd want it grown out as soon as possible. Which is why I recommended the Bio-plus. I've used it on 4 horses with excellent results on 3, so-so results on 1. But you never know how well your horse is going to respond to a supplement. I put one of my horses on Farriers Formula for over a year and wasn't impressed, even though folks raved about it. That horse responded better to the Grand Hoof w/MSM.

So, folks can give recommendations all day long, but just because it worked for their horse, doesn't mean it will work for yours. You won't know until you try.

yes, i agree. i do want QUICK growth. i can't really expect anything over night, but you said earlier that it took around 4 months. that sounds amazing to me. so the bio plus is about $4 more expensive than the for-a-flex (has 40mg of biotin, but good amounts of copper and zinc), so that's really not much of a difference. around the beginning of the year, i'll probably switch him to the grand hoof for maintenance. and i'm sure his good diet will have taken effect by then and he won't be as dull and un healthy looking. i just need to learn patience. i've become so hard on myself because there's some days when i'll go out there and he looks a bit ribby and i'll feel like i'm not doing a good enough job at restoring his health. it's just so hard to remember that i've only had him for a month and he isn't going to gain all of his weight, muscle, and hoof back over night.

[jaimebaker]

Yep you gotta be patient:) The For-A-Flex sounds good if its got good amounts of copper and zinc in it. I just don't have any experience with it.

For reference, the first set of photos I posted were taken 3-24-08 and the last set taken 7-1-08. So, to me that was a good significant amount of growth for a little over 12 weeks. Like I said, my farrier was floored. And in that last set of pics she was due for a trim. Once she got trimmed though, it added more pressure to those cracks and that's when they began to slough. If those cracks are indeed cracks, once they begin to get closer to the ground it's imperative to keep the hoof wall rolled. That will keep a lot of pressure off those cracks. I wound up rasping her every week trying to keep pressure off once they moved on down.

Good luck with it!

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

every time i go back to look at your mare's hooves and i see the bruising it makes me weak in the stomach. it looks so painful :/ but i'm starting to think that leader isn't experiencing the same thing (mainly because of this picture http://i29.tinypic.com/r6z2fs.jpg -- the "crack" is no longer there because that area actually got a chance to dry up) but he still needs a good amount of GOOD hoof growth, which is why i still want to get the supplement you used. you've been a tremendous amount of help, so thank you very much :) i'll try to find you again in a few months to let you know if it worked as well for me as it did for you.

[Androcles]

True, but this horse needs more than a mustang roll, he needs a better trim all around. The hoof is full of sole and bar, the sole is completely flat and projecting beyond the frog. When the horn on the underside is like this, it exerts leverage on the hoof wall, pushes it out, and causes cracks like the one visible in the pictures.

On a bare hoof you want to 'mustang roll' the wall at ground level to keep it from breaking up. I can sort out a good photo and post.

I will do the same for bars.

It is just something the trimmer should do :)

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

True, but this horse needs more than a mustang roll, he needs a better trim all around. The hoof is full of sole and bar, the sole is completely flat and projecting beyond the frog. When the horn on the underside is like this, it exerts leverage on the hoof wall, pushes it out, and causes cracks like the one visible in the pictures.

i think i actually understand what you're saying. but since i'm no hoof expert, could you explain it a little more? where exactly is his sole, and what are the bars that you've been talking about? that way i actually know what to tell my farrier.. because i'm starting to feel a little weird about my farrier since he didn't really address these problems... :/

[EqTrainer]

Your farrier may just be going very slowly, doing a bit at at time, to be sure to not make your horse sore. Sometimes that is the way to go, sometimes you should correct quicker..

but I do wonder about the outer wall not being rolled.

Anyway.

What is your horse eating now? There is a good chance you can just supplement what he needs individually, for much cheaper, than buying a specific hoof supplement.

[JumpingBug]

WE use Farrier’s Formula but everyone has their favorite supplement

Farrier’s Formula
(Life Data Labs) Over 30 years of equine nutritional research, clinical trials and field testing have gone into every cup of Farrier's Formula. While no single nutrient is the key to a healthy hoof, studies show that most horses with hoof problems respond to better overall nutrition. Farrier's Formula provides nutrients such as phospholipids, Omega fatty acids, and important amino acid “protein building blocks” that enable horses to build strong structural and connective tissue proteins important for healthy hoof structure and growth.
Read more...

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Your farrier may just be going very slowly, doing a bit at at time, to be sure to not make your horse sore. Sometimes that is the way to go, sometimes you should correct quicker..

but I do wonder about the outer wall not being rolled.

Anyway.

What is your horse eating now? There is a good chance you can just supplement what he needs individually, for much cheaper, than buying a specific hoof supplement.


he's eating seminole blue ribbon high efficiency. right now he gets 6 quarts a day.. not really sure how that would convert to lbs, but i'm really considering upping his amount of grain soon. he was originally on only 4 quarts (1/2 scoop in the am, 1/2 scoop in the pm) of triple crown senior before i got him. then the previous owner was about to run out of grain and money before i could get him up here (about two weeks before, because i had to borrow a trailer so that's why i couldn't bring him sooner) so she asked me to buy him feed and bring it down there (it's only an hour south).. so i did, and she mixed in the seminole with the triple crown. i gradually moved him up to a full scoop in the am and a full scoop in the pm (3 qt scoops), and he is on full pasture 24/7. how much do you think i should increase his feed? and i'm looking at this feed right now.. http://www.seminolefeed.com/ProductSheetsforWeb/UltraPerformance.htm looking at the ingredients it seems a lot more beneficial than what he's on atm (which is: http://www.seminolefeed.com/ProductSheetsforWeb/BRHE.htm)

[wildlifer]

My favourite thing about SmarkPak's website is that you can select multiple products and do ingredient comparisons directly. It also gives you a brief summary of what each ingredient does. I would suggest you do that -- that's what led me to SmartHoof.

Also, you can find all kinds of good online coupon codes at retailmenot.com

[EqTrainer]

he's eating seminole blue ribbon high efficiency. right now he gets 6 quarts a day.. not really sure how that would convert to lbs, but i'm really considering upping his amount of grain soon. he was originally on only 4 quarts (1/2 scoop in the am, 1/2 scoop in the pm) of triple crown senior before i got him. then the previous owner was about to run out of grain and money before i could get him up here (about two weeks before, because i had to borrow a trailer so that's why i couldn't bring him sooner) so she asked me to buy him feed and bring it down there (it's only an hour south).. so i did, and she mixed in the seminole with the triple crown. i gradually moved him up to a full scoop in the am and a full scoop in the pm (3 qt scoops), and he is on full pasture 24/7. how much do you think i should increase his feed? and i'm looking at this feed right now.. http://www.seminolefeed.com/ProductSheetsforWeb/UltraPerformance.htm looking at the ingredients it seems a lot more beneficial than what he's on atm (which is: http://www.seminolefeed.com/ProductSheetsforWeb/BRHE.htm)

Ok, let's start from the beginning then..

If your horse is eating 4 quarts that is 4.5 lbs. per feeding. Let's go w/pounds as it's easier for me to think that way :)

You should not give a horse more than 5 lbs. of any concentrated feed at one feeding. So essentially, unless you can begin feeding your horse lunch or a late night meal, you really should not give him MORE of either of these feeds. What happens if you feed more than you should at once, is that the stomach cannot handle it and pushed it into the hind gut undigested where it can ferment. At best, your horse just won't get his nutrients, at worst, he could develop ulcers, colic and/or laminitis from this. So don't up his feed unless you can do it in a third meal.

If he has been steadily gaining weight on what you are feeding then you might just want to stick with it and be patient. Putting weight on a horse takes time. But if he has not, then...

Seminole makes excellent feeds and you have a lot of options. After looking at their website (been awhile, made me jealous all over again that I cannot get their feeds here) I would probably switch him to their ration balancer and add oats and rice bran so you can stay under the weight limits for feed but still get more nutrition into him then you are now. So that would be Seminole Equilizer, Seminole Bloom and whole plain oats.

I would also add their mineral mix but not free choice, since he has been neglected I would force feed an ounce at each feeding (just put it in his feed, mix w/a little bit of water if he won't eat it up).

Then you will be able to get all the nutrition in him that he needs, without overloading his body AND keeping it fairly low NSC. You need to build muscle, not just fat, so that factor is important.

Since his deworming history is probably sketchy, you should powerpack him (this may be the most profound thing you do and greatly reduce his need for concentrated feeds) and then keep him on a strict program for at least a year.

If you go this route I think you really won't need any additional hoof supplements at all since he will be at the top end of this feeding program which will handle his amino acid and protein needs, and with the additional minerals cover his copper and zinc requirements.

Hope this all makes sense, feel free to ask questions..

FWIW I feed my horses the Progressive equivalent of this and love the program.. later when he has gained you can start cutting things back and it ends up being very cost effective. TB's tend to to best on these types of feed programs IME. If you board your horse I highly suggest you weight and bag his feed so you are 100% sure he is getting exactly what you want him to get.

[forestergirl99]

Are you planning on keeping him barefoot? Putting shoes on him would help. It would protect the hoof from chips, cracks, etc. Not many TBs can go without shoes. :no:

As for a supplement, there are many options. I feed my horse Purina Ultium(it has biotin in it, plus it's just an amazing feed for gaining weight and muscle), flax seed oil(but corn oil is commonly used, too), and MSM. My farrier happened to shoe my horse before I bought him, and he said his hoof wall looks better than it ever has. :D

MSM (http://www.SmartPakEquine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=127) is just an amazing all around thing to feed. It helps keep tendons strong, keep muscles from getting sore, and it helps with feet and coat. It's also super cheap. A 45 days supply is $10.

I have also used Biotin Plus (http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=817&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Shopping%20Feed-_-NA-_-10817), and it works really well. It speed growth and strengthens.

[LMH]

Not many TBs can go without shoes. :no:


:confused:

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Ok, let's start from the beginning then..

If your horse is eating 4 quarts that is 4.5 lbs. per feeding. Let's go w/pounds as it's easier for me to think that way :)

You should not give a horse more than 5 lbs. of any concentrated feed at one feeding. So essentially, unless you can begin feeding your horse lunch or a late night meal, you really should not give him MORE of either of these feeds. What happens if you feed more than you should at once, is that the stomach cannot handle it and pushed it into the hind gut undigested where it can ferment. At best, your horse just won't get his nutrients, at worst, he could develop ulcers, colic and/or laminitis from this. So don't up his feed unless you can do it in a third meal.

If he has been steadily gaining weight on what you are feeding then you might just want to stick with it and be patient. Putting weight on a horse takes time. But if he has not, then...

Seminole makes excellent feeds and you have a lot of options. After looking at their website (been awhile, made me jealous all over again that I cannot get their feeds here) I would probably switch him to their ration balancer and add oats and rice bran so you can stay under the weight limits for feed but still get more nutrition into him then you are now. So that would be Seminole Equilizer, Seminole Bloom and whole plain oats.

I would also add their mineral mix but not free choice, since he has been neglected I would force feed an ounce at each feeding (just put it in his feed, mix w/a little bit of water if he won't eat it up).

Then you will be able to get all the nutrition in him that he needs, without overloading his body AND keeping it fairly low NSC. You need to build muscle, not just fat, so that factor is important.

Since his deworming history is probably sketchy, you should powerpack him (this may be the most profound thing you do and greatly reduce his need for concentrated feeds) and then keep him on a strict program for at least a year.

If you go this route I think you really won't need any additional hoof supplements at all since he will be at the top end of this feeding program which will handle his amino acid and protein needs, and with the additional minerals cover his copper and zinc requirements.

Hope this all makes sense, feel free to ask questions..

FWIW I feed my horses the Progressive equivalent of this and love the program.. later when he has gained you can start cutting things back and it ends up being very cost effective. TB's tend to to best on these types of feed programs IME. If you board your horse I highly suggest you weight and bag his feed so you are 100% sure he is getting exactly what you want him to get.

well, he only gets 3 quarts per meal, and two meals a day. so he isn't overeating. but i never knew about the 5lbs thing, because i've seen people feed their horses 12lbs a day in just grain..

but today i got two suggestions... 1st, to bring him in from about 10am to 5pm, because he is sweating SO bad. this suggestion was made by the barn owner, and he said he is actually using more energy than he's making. i've tried electrolytes, yet his pee is still DARK yellow :/ i cleaned his sheath and removed a huge bean -- about 1/2 in diameter... it was bad :( but he still is peeing dark, and he only drinks after he is fed grain or after a ride.. otherwise, his head is shoved in the grass, because ALL he does is eat. so anyway, he told me to stall him at those hours. it will help with his sweating because it's cooler, and he won't be as sunbleached (longterm) as he is. (he's supposed to be darrrrrrk bay, but he looks like a palomino on his right side :/ ) the second suggestion, i got from one of my close friends that i board with (the only other boarder at the barn--its just my tb and her QH and her nation show horse) and she firmly believes that he doesn't need a hoof supplement, that his good diet will take effect soon enough that that he needs to be on a strict trimming schedule of every 4 to 5 weeks. i feel soo mixed about that, because i really feel that his hooves are bad. do you really think they can get strong on their own after being neglected for so long?

and he has been steadily gaining weight. i will do my best to weight tape him today and see how much he's gained in the past month. a month ago, he was 1033.. and he's 16.2 hh so that's not too great lol. what do you think a good weight for him would be? the only reason i was considering switching feeds is because the ultra performance has omega's , and tiny bit of biotin, copper and zinc, and ultra bloom in it so it can take care of his coat and hooves. but this ration balancer idea sounds pretty neat and i will definitely look into it.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Are you planning on keeping him barefoot? Putting shoes on him would help. It would protect the hoof from chips, cracks, etc. Not many TBs can go without shoes. :no:

As for a supplement, there are many options. I feed my horse Purina Ultium(it has biotin in it, plus it's just an amazing feed for gaining weight and muscle), flax seed oil(but corn oil is commonly used, too), and MSM. My farrier happened to shoe my horse before I bought him, and he said his hoof wall looks better than it ever has.

MSM (http://www.SmartPakEquine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=127) is just an amazing all around thing to feed. It helps keep tendons strong, keep muscles from getting sore, and it helps with feet and coat. It's also super cheap. A 45 days supply is $10.

I have also used Biotin Plus (http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=817&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Shopping%20Feed-_-NA-_-10817), and it works really well. It speed growth and strengthens.


yes, i'm planning on keeping him barefoot. right now, his hoof wall isn't strong enough to hold a shoe (says my farrier), and he's not really doing anything to require a shoe. eventually we are going to get him back into jumping. he's done a few jumps already, because he really loves them. he's only done about 1.5 ft, though because i do not want to over work him, but he over jumps so badly lol. it started out with ground poles so i could get him to lift his legs better in his trot, then it moved to cavaletti's. but he was treating the cavaletti's like bigger jumps and over jumping them. he was a slowwww race horse but he's a fast jumper. probably because he gets bored so easily racing just didnt capture his attention.

and i do use MSM--mine has 28,000mg per serving and he usually gets it once a day. if he's looking really ouchy, i'll give him a little bit more, but he doesn't get like that often.

[EqTrainer]

On the Seminole website it says that for both of those feeds, 1 quart equals 1.5 lbs. of feed. So 3 x 1.5 = 4.5 lbs.

Yes, people do feed their horses lots of feed at one time.. not a good idea, whether they do it or not :winkgrin:

About the pee. A lot of horses who have been starved have kidney issues for a while afterwards. I know payday is not until Friday (been there, remember that time of my life) but you need to get a blood panel pulled on this horse to make sure he is not having kidney or liver issues. Please do call your vet and discuss.

Trims - yes, 4 - 5 weeks. I think on the diet I outlined you would see increased hoof growth and better condition on your horse in general - but keep in mind - it takes well over a year to restore good health to a horse who has been so neglected. So you are in for long haul... and did I tell you, THANK YOU for taking this horse, you did good!

[Dressage_Julie]

I have a warmblood with bad feet, her mom had bad feet too. I looked for a supplement with 20 mg of biotin at a reasonable price. iIended up using Sho Hoof by Manna Pro. 7 months later I am seeing her feet hold up better. It certainly isn't overnight, but I think it is helping. Good luck!

Additional Manna Pro® Sho-Hoof® Information:
This leading hoof supplement provides 20mg of Biotin per dose to maintain overall hoof condition. Contains antioxidants to support immune system and 8500mg of methionine and 187mg of Zinc per serving. Granular. Daily Dosage: 2 oz. per day
Nutritional Information

Crude Protein Min ..20.00%
Methionine Min ......15.00%
Crude Fat Min .......2.50%
Crude Fiber Max ...15.00%
Calcium Min ..........1.50%
Calcium Max .........2.00%
Phosphorus Min .....0.30%
Copper Min ...........700ppm
Iodine Min ..............25ppm
Manganese Min ...2,100 ppm
Selenium Min ..........16 ppm
Zinc Min .............3,300 ppm
Vitamin A Min ....32,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E Min .........800 IU/lb
Vitamin B Min ........130 mg/lb
Niacin Min .............700 mg/lb
Pyridoxine Min .......180 mg/lb
Choline Min ...........600 mg/lb
Biotin Min ..............160 mg/lb

[forestergirl99]

:confused:

That's just from my experience. All the TBs I've seen needed shoes, and I've seen quite a few of them. They might be alright for just light work, but as soon as they were put into harder work, they started going lame. I'm sure there is a TB somewhere that can go barefoot, but TBs weren't bred for their feet. :no:

[SunshineSummertime]

I have a horse at my barn that has a similar growth in her hind foot that is a result of founder. The founder was a result of bearing too much weight on this foot to minimize the weight on the other foot that has sustained an inury. The area was very mushy all around the coronet band and was growing out in indentation. I was worried that the slightest bit of trauma to the area would cause it to open and possibly abscess. To get it to harden, I applied reducine 2-3X a day and it is a better picture today! She is sound and able to have light turnout. Reducine all the way! Feeding a supplement is not proactive, that is for longevity and it sounds like you need to worry about the present. I would get films taken of the feet to see if you have any rotation. If you get pics now, and then look 4-6 months from now, you will have a starting point which is helpful if you are dealing with a bigger problem besides just poor health management. Be proactive as my favorite quote is -

"no hoof no horse"

GOOD LUCK!!

[ThoroughbredFancy]

That's just from my experience. All the TBs I've seen needed shoes, and I've seen quite a few of them. They might be alright for just light work, but as soon as they were put into harder work, they started going lame. I'm sure there is a TB somewhere that can go barefoot, but TBs weren't bred for their feet. :no:

Well, you haven't met my TB then. :D

[wildlifer]

That's just from my experience. All the TBs I've seen needed shoes, and I've seen quite a few of them. They might be alright for just light work, but as soon as they were put into harder work, they started going lame. I'm sure there is a TB somewhere that can go barefoot, but TBs weren't bred for their feet. :no:

That's pretty vague -- there are soooooooooo many things that cause lameness, I very much doubt that it was just "they needed shoes." Some may, others may just need a better trim, or an umpteen million other issues addressed. There are PLENTY of folks out there at all different levels jumping, eventing, whatever, barefoot, on TBs! I think the OP has a lot of rehab work to do to get a HEALTHY FOOT back first before deciding whether to shoe or not.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

I have a warmblood with bad feet, her mom had bad feet too. I looked for a supplement with 20 mg of biotin at a reasonable price. iIended up using Sho Hoof by Manna Pro. 7 months later I am seeing her feet hold up better. It certainly isn't overnight, but I think it is helping. Good luck!

yes! i'm thinking about getting sho glo by manna pro because it's so cheap but has sooo many vitamins and minerals.

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Well, you haven't met my TB then. :D

your tb does sound pretty awesome. you should post pics :)

[Chief2]

jamiebaker, thank you for the supplement link. I am caring for a Percheron/qh in need of more than Grand Hoof is delivering. GH works great for my app/tb, but for this guy, not so well. I just ordered from your link. Thanks!

[grayarabpony]

That's just from my experience. All the TBs I've seen needed shoes, and I've seen quite a few of them. They might be alright for just light work, but as soon as they were put into harder work, they started going lame. I'm sure there is a TB somewhere that can go barefoot, but TBs weren't bred for their feet. :no:

I've seen a few TBs with really excellent feet and could go barefoot anywhere and work hard barefoot, but sadly it's true, they are not bred for their feet.

Plus, the fact that so many are shod and put into hard work young (if they race, which most do), who knows what that does to the digital cushion? Many tend to have thin walls too, so flaring can be an issue...

[Carol Ames]

Break up your feed into as many feedings as possible; would 6 work?Don't forget that Tbs put on weight with:yes: exercise; can you do long walks, short, 5 minutes at first?Have you considered the possibility of Ulcers?; most OTTbs do have:( them; can you find free sample ofGastrogard?see:yes: if that makes a difference; and then, of course, there are his teeth to check; how are they?t Keeping him inside out of the heat and flies:eek: will definitely:yes: help as well.:yes: :eek:

[cloudyandcallie]

That's just from my experience. All the TBs I've seen needed shoes, and I've seen quite a few of them. They might be alright for just light work, but as soon as they were put into harder work, they started going lame. I'm sure there is a TB somewhere that can go barefoot, but TBs weren't bred for their feet. :no:

Make that all TBs and WBs I have known. Others may have had different bloodlines, but my TB mare and my WB had some bloodlines in common.

It depends on your grasses, your hay, your water (minerals, etc0 and your horses' heredity but here's my unscientific results:

John Ewing's trainers' formula worked for TB hooves and for WB hooves.
Next Level did not work for mine, but did work for an Arab at the same barn.
Glanzen3 did not work for mine.
Farrier's formula concentrated is working now. (John Ewing's doesn't come in smartpaks, farrier's formula concentrate does.)

My tb mare had "normal" tb hooves. My WB has shelly hooves.

So keep trying things until you find something that works.

[Carol Ames]

I used farriers' :yes:formula; it's expensive:eek: and takes a while to work:(; but, my farrier said he could tell the difference in the quality ;) of the hoof coming in ; for the field hunters we used H B xxx the feed dealer ran a comp and it had the same ingredients :yes::cool:as ff. What does your farrier say?

[chelsealaurenmurphy]

Break up your feed into as many feedings as possible; would 6 work?Don't forget that Tbs put on weight with:yes: exercise; can you do long walks, short, 5 minutes at first?Have you considered the possibility of Ulcers?; most OTTbs do have:( them; can you find free sample ofGastrogard?see:yes: if that makes a difference; and then, of course, there are his teeth to check; how are they?t Keeping him inside out of the heat and flies:eek: will definitely:yes: help as well.:yes: :eek:

well, i'm not sure if i can get 6 in one day, but i will try to up it to 4 times a day. and he does get plenty of exercise. about every three days. we walk to warm up, then trot for about 5 min, canter for about 2 min, trot a little more, then walk. he can't canter for a long time at all, because he has wind problems. any idea on how to fix this?

and ulcers, hmmm. will the gastrogard actually get rid of them if he has them or what? and what are the symptoms? and yes, my barn owner said he would do better being brought in during the day and he wouldn't waste as much energy sweating as he does. the cool thing is he doesn't get restless in his stall. he loves it. the pasture is about 30 - 40 feet from the barn and i can open the gate and he will walk straight to his stall. mainly because he associates it with grain lol.