Third trocanter

[JB]

Does anyone have any link to anything that shows, really well, this whole area, both from a skeletal perspective and from a muscular perspective?

[Ghazzu]

Let me wade through my anatomy slides.

ETA--I have a femur downstairs.
I'll go take a picture.

[Ghazzu]

Cranial view equine femur, left.

[Ghazzu]

Oh, and the superficial gluteal and part of the middle gluteal insert on the 3rd trochanter.

[TheOrangeOne]

"I have a femur downstairs"

Bless you. :yes:

[mvp]

Who, but JB, would need a horse thigh (really bad) on a friday night?

But that does sound like a request I'd make. CoTH rocks. Thanks Ghazzu. Yous good peeps.

[JB]

COTH rocks, Ghazzu rocks even more, and mvp :lol:

And who, but Ghazzu, would "have a femur downstairs" lmao!!

I remembered about midnight last night that I had my old college Husbandry book here, and got that out. So, I did end up finding the info I think I was looking for.

I'm trying to find out the relationship between muscles that attach to the various piece-parts there (are those origination or insertion points? or does it differ based on the muscle?) and leg abduction and forward movement. And, can I get to those muscles with some serious massage, and can I get them stretched in a good way. I also have my Jean-Pierre Hourdebaigt Equine Massage book and am wading through some of that as well.

[mvp]

The funny thing is that I know exactly where the third trocanter is, and I used to know what attached to it. I was even part of treating a horse who had the area injected.

I'm an ammy, but did get to dissect out some horse legs while in grad school studying something marginally related. I'm very grateful to be part of the "Why do you know or care about crap like that?" club here.

Hope your horse gets a better massage for your efforts.

[JB]

I'm very grateful to be part of the "Why do you know or care about crap like that?" club here.
LOL, me too! It's too bad more owners don't even care - they just want someone else to fix things :(

Hope your horse gets a better massage for your efforts.
Thank you - me too!!!

[mvp]

Well, my horse has a stumper of a problem right now (right after the saddle hunt ended, I kid you not), so, JB....

Come over, bring all your brain cells and ability to fit many puzzle pieces together and Fix My Damn Horse.

I'll be in the chaise on the porch.

[Ghazzu]

The usual convention is that the origin is the region that moves less, and the insertion is the part that moves more.

More trivia--"trochanter" comes from the Greek for "runner".

[FlashGordon]

I've been eyeing this thread for a day now, thinking "what the hell is a trocanter?"

good to know it is a bone that Ghazzu keeps in her closet.

but for real, cool pic. I wish I knew more about horse anatomy. :confused:

[Quinn]

"I have a femur downstairs"

Bless you. :yes:

I second, third and fourth that. PLUS, it cracked me up!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[JB]

Well, my horse has a stumper of a problem right now (right after the saddle hunt ended, I kid you not),
Oh, you don't have to tell me! Mine started the day my *custom ordered* BC came! What saddle did you end up with?

so, JB....

Come over, bring all your brain cells and ability to fit many puzzle pieces together and Fix My Damn Horse.

I'll be in the chaise on the porch.Fix My Damn Horse. Love it.

PM me what's wrong with your guy, unless you have a thread here already :lol:

[JB]

but for real, cool pic. I wish I knew more about horse anatomy. :confused:

Since I do *not* have time to study it as a whole, I learn it as things go wrong with my horses, or I hear of things wrong with other horses. Things make so much more sense when you have a specific issue you are tying to it :)

Check this out (http://books.google.com/books?id=K7LaZDRLgT4C&pg=RA1-PA18&lpg=RA1-PA18&dq=%22vastus+medialis+%22+equine&source=bl&ots=nS1gOWLnDE&sig=eu6hyKBkg2XgTiksTmCBzTS3TGY&hl=en&ei=V4l9SrOQBKiTtgepg8ndAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

Ghazzu, thanks for that - makes sense!

[mvp]

Sorry, you guys can listen for a minute, and I'll get back to the topic at hand below.

So you ordered a custom BC? Recently? After the pics of the NQR XW Quantum? And then your horse broke? Gettoutatown! Wadju get?

Long story short, I bought a miracle saddle from a very nice woman on E-bay: A *chocolate* 16.5 W Crosby Victory barely broken in. Go see Across Sicily's recent thread on her newborn County Stabilizer and you'll see my saddle's twin, 'cept that mine has a slightly deeper seat. I also learned the E-bayer was nice because I asked for a few measurements taken from my infamous "compendium of measurements" post you remember. I'll be damned if good geometry didn't work. She very kindly measured the stuff I wanted and when it all checked out, the saddle fit. Yes way.

I couldn't be happier....except that I don't want to saddle the back of my couch. I will PM you if the latest round of "let's see if this works and therefore that was his problem" isn't successful.

To the rest of you: If you can possibly wrangle a dissection opportunity, take it. You can't believe how much more you will be able to see and feel in your horse's legs once you have personally worked from skin down to bone with your own hands and a scalpel.

And is the greek "runner" meaning as in "thing that aids in running" (as in a part of bone to which the all-important glutes attach) or as in "long ridgey runner like a long rug" thing?

[JB]

Sorry, you guys can listen for a minute, and I'll get back to the topic at hand below.

So you ordered a custom BC? Recently? After the pics of the NQR XW Quantum? And then your horse broke? Gettoutatown! Wadju get?
Yes, the custom-ordered XXW Quantum X. The day I tried him in it for the first time he was broken. It was never quite right, and I could not get in any hours of riding to see how the stuffing would settle, so it went back. He's been broken since, so I just have the dressage saddle still - no new CC saddle

Long story short, I bought a miracle saddle from a very nice woman on E-bay: A *chocolate* 16.5 W Crosby Victory barely broken in. Go see Across Sicily's recent thread on her newborn County Stabilizer and you'll see my saddle's twin, 'cept that mine has a slightly deeper seat. I also learned the E-bayer was nice because I asked for a few measurements taken from my infamous "compendium of measurements" post you remember. I'll be damned if good geometry didn't work. She very kindly measured the stuff I wanted and when it all checked out, the saddle fit. Yes way.Way cool :cool: I've seen the Victory and it's yummy!

I couldn't be happier....except that I don't want to saddle the back of my couch. I will PM you if the latest round of "let's see if this works and therefore that was his problem" isn't successful.Great - I love (in a really twisted way) hearing what's wrong with other horses. Seriously - it's all in the interest of learning :)

And is the greek "runner" meaning as in "thing that aids in running" (as in a part of bone to which the all-important glutes attach) or as in "long ridgey runner like a long rug" thing?I had to go look - it's neither. It's "as in a person who runs"

From dictionary.com
Etymology: Gr trochantēr < trechein, to run. From http://books.google.com/books?id=fstFQVnw8-wC&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=%2Btrochanter+%2Bgreek+%2Betymology&source=bl&ots=r3DvCQpjMa&sig=2Ec-JycR06LGLPaD68B1H4-cx9M&hl=en&ei=lzp-SrD7K9f7tgfM9JHvAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false
"wheel" from the verb (can't type it here it's all Greek, literally!) "I run (roll over) , move quickly." From the root "trag": "draw, drag" as by means of a wheel."

Very cool.

[EqTrainer]

If my home phone were to ring right now I would not be horrified.

[Daydream Believer]

I've been eyeing this thread for a day now, thinking "what the hell is a trocanter?"



Me too! :lol:

[JB]

If my home phone were to ring right now I would not be horrified.

:lol:

Well, lucky for you, I'm going to bed!

[TheHorseProblem]

I've been eyeing this thread for a day now, thinking "what the hell is a trocanter?":confused:

I seriously thought it was when you ask your lazy horse for canter and he decides he won't quite give it to you.

[Ghazzu]

I've been eyeing this thread for a day now, thinking "what the hell is a trocanter?"

good to know it is a bone that Ghazzu keeps in her closet.

but for real, cool pic. I wish I knew more about horse anatomy. :confused:

I teach a course in equine anatomy and physiology in an equine studies program.

I could probably put something like "A&P lite" together if there was some interest.

[pintopiaffe]

This has to be one of my all time favorite threads. :p

[mvp]

JB--on the Victory:

Oh, and the tree was flatter than the BC, which Horseling needed. He wasn't complaining about the Quantum, but it did rock a tad when I posted. I got stumped there because Trumbull Mountain wanted me to a) buy it anyway because the horse hadn't yet said no in a definitive way; b) order some panel options I had not tried or could not. (They would have allowed me to return the custom saddle, but for a 20% loss.) Or c) they would let me order a BC built on their flatter CC tree, but then we are really shooting in the dark.

I got scared, and by the way, the Victory cost less than 1/3 of the custom/risky saddle. I bought that pup because I assumed I could resell it for at least what I paid.

But the saddle may be cursed. The woman who had it was selling it because her aging horse had lost too much muscle over the winter and she thought it would be just too wide. Now after several weeks off and no perfect diagnosis or cure, Horseling's topline is rotting. His muscle is melting off his skeleton from the top down. The building beer gut is doing just fine.

Ghazzu. I'll be in CT this fall and I'll come over for A&P Lite. But I should warn you, I'll want to touch things.

IIRC, you can palpate the third trochanter. I'll look around on mine today, since he's conveniently missing a bunch of muscle back there, and tell you guys how I found it. I think crap can happen to the medial glutes (or whatever) attaches there. I think the origin's tendon isn't a cord as we usually think of for muscles, but a thin sheet. I'll bet if that muscle gets tight, it pulls on this sheet and it may be comparatively fragile for the size of the muscle body it supports. But I'd need to study a bit to see if this is true.

[JB]

JB--on the Victory:

Oh, and the tree was flatter than the BC, which Horseling needed. He wasn't complaining about the Quantum, but it did rock a tad when I posted. I got stumped there because Trumbull Mountain wanted me to a) buy it anyway because the horse hadn't yet said no in a definitive way; b) order some panel options I had not tried or could not. (They would have allowed me to return the custom saddle, but for a 20% loss.) Or c) they would let me order a BC built on their flatter CC tree, but then we are really shooting in the dark.
They do want to get their saddles sold don't they :(

But the saddle may be cursed. The woman who had it was selling it because her aging horse had lost too much muscle over the winter and she thought it would be just too wide. Now after several weeks off and no perfect diagnosis or cure, Horseling's topline is rotting. His muscle is melting off his skeleton from the top down. The building beer gut is doing just fine.

Next time, trade something else or barter for services instead of paying actual $$ for a saddle :lol:

Ghazzu. I'll be in CT this fall and I'll come over for A&P Lite. But I should warn you, I'll want to touch things.

You'll want to touch the bones, right? Just the bones?! Watch out for this one Ghazzu :winkgrin:

IIRC, you can palpate the third trochanter. I'll look around on mine today, since he's conveniently missing a bunch of muscle back there, and tell you guys how I found it. I think crap can happen to the medial glutes (or whatever) attaches there. I think the origin's tendon isn't a cord as we usually think of for muscles, but a thin sheet. I'll bet if that muscle gets tight, it pulls on this sheet and it may be comparatively fragile for the size of the muscle body it supports. But I'd need to study a bit to see if this is true.
See, that's where I'm going on this. I think my guy did a split of some sort and tore something back there. I can get my hand up under that and he loves it. He will "sit" on my hand as I push up and in. Just the one - not both - he couldn't care less what I do to the left one. But on the right, he even starts to help out so I/we can get the right spot.

[mvp]

I don't remember the details at all, but I groomed a horse long ago (when I was fresh from my dissection course and had a clue), who had his area injected. He did go to a big clinic and the vet may have taken radiographs. I don't remember this being The Cure for this horse.

In your horse's case? I'd take my backyard, wannabe vet/anatomist, so broke from recent vet bills I should call Obama for *my own personal bail out*-a$$ outside and:

1) use some Robaxin to help your horse relax all his muscles.

2) massage the area he says he wants, partly to help the offending muscle loosen up, and partly to see if I could bring some new circulation to the tissues at the origin.

I think healing might be thwarted by a contracted muscle body that keeps ripping growing collagen fibers away from the bone. Just my puny logic.

[JB]

You are indeed one of my twins, because that's exactly what I'm doing :) Now that I'm fairly certain it's a muscle issue, I may indeed get on that Robaxin. It won't hurt, and it may be very telling.

[FlashGordon]

Ohh A&P lite, I'd be all for that. I'm sure there are a million bones with funny names that I don't know about.

THP, I too thought perhaps it was some crazy gait. Like the green-horse-trot-to-canter transition that is always so fun.

[EqTrainer]

Tranter, trocanter, sounds so alike :lol: especially when you consider that JB's horses trocanter is causing him to tranter.....

[Ghazzu]

Just to clarify here, the correct spelling is trochanter.

[TheHorseProblem]

I teach a course in equine anatomy and physiology in an equine studies program.

I could probably put something like "A&P lite" together if there was some interest.

Do it online and I'm in!

[EqTrainer]

Just to clarify here, the correct spelling is trochanter.

tee hee, I kept typing that and then going back and seeing trocanter and thinking.. am I losing it? canter or chant? chanting trocanter cantering? ahhhhhhh.....

[mvp]

I'm telling you, you can't get it on line.

You need a dead one (or at least a front limb to start), a text book, a scapel, some old clothes and some time-- or a big fridge and a bottle of formalin so you can spray it on as needed to slow the decay and smell that will make you want to quit too soon.

There is no substitute. It's really helpful to be able to feel around, rotate the leg in your hands and trace down the muscles and ligaments. Purportedly separate ligaments down by the fetlock and sesamoids seem to fuse together in the flesh. Careful dissection, or at least the exercise of trying to find the separate ones is worth the effort.

To quote _Talladega Nights, you will "make suspensory anatomy yo' bitch, Daddy," and therefore develop a great understanding of these injuries, their relationship to shoeing and footing when you are done.

[JB]

Just to clarify here, the correct spelling is trochanter.
Yeah, I know, it was late that night and I was so tired LOL

[FlashGordon]

I'm telling you, you can't get it on line.

You need a dead one (or at least a front limb to start), a text book, a scapel, some old clothes and some time-- or a big fridge and a bottle of formalin so you can spray it on as needed to slow the decay and smell that will make you want to quit too soon.

There is no substitute. It's really helpful to be able to feel around, rotate the leg in your hands and trace down the muscles and ligaments. Purportedly separate ligaments down by the fetlock and sesamoids seem to fuse together in the flesh. Careful dissection, or at least the exercise of trying to find the separate ones is worth the effort.

To quote _Talladega Nights, you will "make suspensory anatomy yo' bitch, Daddy," and therefore develop a great understanding of these injuries, their relationship to shoeing and footing when you are done.

Think you may be right mvp. I still wish I'd been a vet but alas my brain is more suited to creativity than chemistry, much to my dismay. :confused:

On a side note. I have a Scottish friend who is also an artist and for her final project she made a coffee table out of real horse legs. Yipes. It is creepy and cool all at the same time.

[TheHorseProblem]

Femurs, Greek word origins, massage, mystery lameness, saddles, and unique coffee tables--what doesn't this thread have in it?:lol:

[RAyers]

...ETA--I have a femur downstairs....


Funny, I have one in my office window.

If you have an iPhone or iTouch, get the application Speed Bones. It is a great anatomy teacher.

Reed

[mvp]

You can stop mid-dissection for a swig of water if you want to. After all, the horse is already dead and you only have textbook for a teacher, so you will not have committed any moral or social faux pas. They're your lips and nasty fingers, but swig away.

You will need to form an opinion on whether your dead horse was shod well or not, and defend it.

You could definitely wear your rust breeches to this gig. I also recommend some kind of hairnet or pony ribbons.

And should you wonder, the best illustrated anatomy books are traditionally published in Germany... yet one more thing they do better than the Americans.

Did I miss anything?

[TheHorseProblem]

You can stop mid-dissection for a swig of water if you want to. After all, the horse is already dead and you only have textbook for a teacher, so you will not have committed any moral or social faux pas. They're your lips and nasty fingers, but swig away.

You will need to form an opinion on whether your dead horse was shod well or not, and defend it.

You could definitely wear your rust breeches to this gig. I also recommend some kind of hairnet or pony ribbons.

And should you wonder, the best illustrated anatomy books are traditionally published in Germany... yet one more thing they do better than the Americans.

Did I miss anything?

YOU FORGOT THE SNAPS!!!!!!