Trail sound?

[TheHorseProblem]

My 19 year old WBX became lame a little over two years ago. Prior to the lameness, he was used for lower levels of dressage and trail riding. The problem was in his left front, where he also has weird conformation and has always worn pads. It's a long story as to how he became lame; to make it short, he was diagnosed two months after the initial lameness as having a bowed tendon, specifically tendinitis in the superficial digital flexor tendon. The bow is very high, almost behind his knee. Three times, after long spells of rest/hand walking, he has become lame again after two months of soundness. The last ultrasound showed no smoking gun at all. The spot on the tendon looked better than it did the last time US was done, and he was lamer this time. It's just been a long drawn out process of realizing that my dream horse is just never going to hold up to arena work.

I have a call in to my vet about this, but in the meantime (he's slow to return calls), do you think a horse with such an issue is sound for trail riding? At this point, it's sort of a mystery lameness. He was blocked all the way up, and only became sound after the highest block, so it appears that the problem area is above where the old bow is. He is totally sound at the walk. Could he do the job of a trail horse? I can't afford two horses, but I would like to keep riding.

[debra]

I am so sorry to hear this. I am dealing with lameness issues in my 8 year old OTTB and I know how you feel, wondering if you can just hack at least. I also can't afford 2 horses, but I love my guy.
You might want to consult a different vet, just to get another opinion- but personally I think, if he's 19 and sound at a walk, ride him at a walk, otherwise you may never get to enjoy riding him at all.
JMO

[TheHorseProblem]

I think he can just hack out at a walk, but I would really like to hear from others on this. I know that with soft tissue injuries, depending on the severity, there are two schools of thought. One is total stall rest followed by carefully timed and managed rehab. The other is to keep the horse walking. I've tried both, also the tincture of time, and he always returns to lameness.

So I wonder if there are others out there who transitioned their horses to just trail work after such a career-ending development. Lucky for my horse, he is happy doing that job. Since he is only lame at the trot, can he be considered sound for trail only?

[mustangtrailrider]

You would do best to consult another vet. "Trail Sound" means nothing to me. My trail riding includes w/t/c with lots of transitions, uneven ground, hills, water, obstacles, etc. So, I need an athlete, balanced, correct, and sound for the type of riding I do.

Trail sound should be changed to walk/light riding only. Trail sound is an ambiguous term. Even then, if on trail and he spooks, he is likely to injure himself.

Good luck.

[goeslikestink]

if hes unsound then dont work him

[Huntertwo]

A trail horse must be sound just like a horse would be in any other discipline. Not to sound harsh, but I don't know why one would think a trail horse has a cushy job.

I go up, over, and down all kinds of terrain - Mud, water, down steep hills (sometimes slippery) up steep hills, over rocky trails where my mare needs to navigate her way though. I need a sound horse to do this.

Unless your trails are totally flat with great footing...then I might consider.

But if you are looking to sell this horse for a "Trail Horse", most trail riders would pass if the horse is not totally sound. No different than any other discipline. If he can't stay arena sound, why would he be sound for trail riding?

[twofatponies]

If he is sound under saddle at a walk, try walking just a short flat distance once a day for a week, like a ten minute stroll around the farm property. Is he still comfortable? Then go a little longer (20 minutes). Then try a trail with a small slope, not steep. Let him walk freely in his own way, rather than riding him "in a frame" or collected, etc. Each week add a little more, and see what he can do. Be honest about listening to him if he is NQR.

I don't have your situation, but my older mare was formerly chronically intermittently unsound for mystery reasons, eventually really unsound when she tore a ligament in the pasture. She had a year off, came back sound, and we started walking her, at first in the arena, then on trails. Six months later she was w/t/c and is still going strong three years later. She can go for miles, and loves the attention and adventure. She has some arthritis now, and cysts in her stifles (we inject once or twice a year, when she needs it), so we listen to her, and avoid hard or trappy footing, steep hills, rocky, difficult stuff.

So maybe start very slow and small, and see what he is good for. See what the vet says about trying that.

[TheHorseProblem]

Unless your trails are totally flat with great footing...then I might consider.

But if you are looking to sell this horse for a "Trail Horse", most trail riders would pass if the horse is not totally sound. No different than any other discipline. If he can't stay arena sound, why would he be sound for trail riding?

As a matter of fact, where I live, the trails are flat. I am not looking to sell him to anyone. However, I live in a metropolitan area where horse keeping is expensive. My choices are to keep him in a pasture situation, where I only get to see him once a week, if that, because it's so far away, or figure out a job he can do for me or maybe someone else.

It's very painful to contemplate. He's a very sociable horse--to know him is to love him. I miss seeing him everyday.

So I'm just asking if others have been in this situation, and if it worked out for them. I appreciate your perspective as a trail rider.

[TheHorseProblem]

If he is sound under saddle at a walk, try walking just a short flat distance once a day for a week, like a ten minute stroll around the farm property. Is he still comfortable? Then go a little longer (20 minutes). Then try a trail with a small slope, not steep. Let him walk freely in his own way, rather than riding him "in a frame" or collected, etc. Each week add a little more, and see what he can do. Be honest about listening to him if he is NQR.

I don't have your situation, but my older mare was formerly chronically intermittently unsound for mystery reasons, eventually really unsound when she tore a ligament in the pasture. She had a year off, came back sound, and we started walking her, at first in the arena, then on trails. Six months later she was w/t/c and is still going strong three years later. She can go for miles, and loves the attention and adventure. She has some arthritis now, and cysts in her stifles (we inject once or twice a year, when she needs it), so we listen to her, and avoid hard or trappy footing, steep hills, rocky, difficult stuff.

So maybe start very slow and small, and see what he is good for. See what the vet says about trying that.

Thanks for that suggestion. Luckily, he has a great temperament and would accept the easy life. He's 19 now, and I am beyond hoping for a miracle. There actually aren't any slopes where I live right now. But you're right, I should just make sure he can handle a rider's weight for gradually increasing increments of time. I'm going to talk to my (elusive) vet next week and see if we can't put together a program for him.

[mvp]

I do understand the question, and there is a lesser degree of soundness that might work or be manageable with a loving rider and an understanding that this is now a pleasure horse.

My questions are:

1) Do you know what is causing his pain, or are you just *done* with all the looking, rehabbing, vet bills and all?

2) If you want to look, did you consider a high suspensory problem? The "down home" way of at least checking for this is to palpate 'em. Both legs, everywhere, look for a "yikes!" reaction from your horse to find the sore part.

3) If you are done asking questions or know what his deal is, the next question is whether you want to turn him out for 6 months, a year and see where he is. Depending on his age and the problem, that might actually help. Visit him if you want.

4) If you do want to turn him into a trail horse, the question I'd be asking is whether or not he is improved by and can live on a gram of bute per day on the days you ride him. Purists will say no, but it's a better option for a sociable, loved horse than many others.

5) You may find that with some bute and an interesting job, you horse discovers that the trade-off of cruising down the trail outside (let's say mainly walking, but a bit of trotting if he seems eager), ain't bad. My point about there really and truly being a "pleasure horse sound" that's different from a "show horse sound" level is that you and he get to choose how much work he does each day.

Best of luck with your horse.

[pj]

A trail horse must be sound just like a horse would be in any other discipline. Not to sound harsh, but I don't know why one would think a trail horse has a cushy job.

I go up, over, and down all kinds of terrain - Mud, water, down steep hills (sometimes slippery) up steep hills, over rocky trails where my mare needs to navigate her way though. I need a sound horse to do this.

Unless your trails are totally flat with great footing...then I might consider.

But if you are looking to sell this horse for a "Trail Horse", most trail riders would pass if the horse is not totally sound. No different than any other discipline. If he can't stay arena sound, why would he be sound for trail riding?

As huntertwo said a real trail horse should be sound. I wouldn't want to tackle some of the trails I ride if my horse were not. My neck and her's depend on her not to mention I don't want to hurt her.

However there is a big difference in a hack who goes out on easy, friendly (probaly manicured) bridal paths. Maybe try that and see how it goes.

I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this. I know my heart would break if it happened to my gal and we couldn't do the trails again but HEY I wouldn't give her up for anything.

Best of luck to you and your special boy.

[TheHorseProblem]

MVP, those are great questions!

My questions are:

1) Do you know what is causing his pain, or are you just *done* with all the looking, rehabbing, vet bills and all?

The cause of the pain has been diagnosed as the bowed tendon, then needing a more supportive shoe, then blocking and an ultrasound as high up as the mobile US unit can go with no smoking gun, and a vague suggestion that maybe the shoer 'wrenched him." This stems from the timing of his relapse coming right after being shod. And yes, I feel done because it's been so heartbreaking.

2) If you want to look, did you consider a high suspensory problem? The "down home" way of at least checking for this is to palpate 'em. Both legs, everywhere, look for a "yikes!" reaction from your horse to find the sore part.

How high is high? The US showed as being almost behind his knee. That was the original bow. Do you mean palpate him above the knee?

3) If you are done asking questions or know what his deal is, the next question is whether you want to turn him out for 6 months, a year and see where he is. Depending on his age and the problem, that might actually help. Visit him if you want.

Been there, done that. He spent 6 months in a fairly large pasture (well, there's no genuine pasture where I live, but the paddock was large enough for voluntary exercise). He was still lame. At that time (this was in January) the vet blocked him and found the problem to be in his hoof, but the x-rays revealed nothing out of the ordinary. He did return to soundness after getting pads and equithane, but that lasted only until this last relapse in June.

4) If you do want to turn him into a trail horse, the question I'd be asking is whether or not he is improved by and can live on a gram of bute per day on the days you ride him. Purists will say no, but it's a better option for a sociable, loved horse than many others.

I have no problem at all with having a horse that lives on bute. I myself live on ibuprofen.;) However, bute doesn't resolve his lameness.

5) You may find that with some bute and an interesting job, you horse discovers that the trade-off of cruising down the trail outside (let's say mainly walking, but a bit of trotting if he seems eager), ain't bad. My point about there really and truly being a "pleasure horse sound" that's different from a "show horse sound" level is that you and he get to choose how much work he does each day.

In my situation, the real question is whether I can adjust to having a horse that is *only* pleasure horse sound. That would require a major adjustment of my riding goals. That's the biggie.

For my horse, his goal has always been an afternoon walk down the trails.:sadsmile:

[mvp]

We are exactly on the same page with respect to what we want versus what we'll do and what we can afford to do.

I own one I bred so he's mine (and my checking account's) from cradle to grave. I also don't want a pleasure horse. I need a goal, the hope and "looking forward to..." that comes with a horse in a program. I can even stand diagnostic PITAs and rehabbing so long as it has a teleology to it. You dig? I don't have an answer to the "What will you do when he's done?" But I do know it will look like: 1) I left no stone unturned in terms of diagnosis and treatment; and 2) I said "uncle" when the horse said "uncle."

So for psychological reasons, but also some empirical questions about the cause of your horse's pain, I'd be getting a second or third opinion if I were in your position. I'd also learn a ton of anatomy, physiology and how various treatments work. This horse is offering you an opportunity, even if it's not the one you ordered.

From what you say (and especially nerve blocks), have you guys placed the pain way up behind the knee? I mean way up there. Google images of the suspensory apparatus, buy a text book, feel around, but you might want to learn some anatomy here.

When the leg is up (knee bent) all the tendons and ligaments and the back of the leg will be slack. Sooner or later-- and sooner with a text book open in the barn aisle-- you will be able to feel the superficial digital flexor, the deep digital flexor, the body of the suspensory, it's two branches about 2/3 of the way down. You might not be able to feel the suspensory's relationship to the splint bones, check ligaments and origin at the back of the knee (or top of the cannon bone?) but you might be able to see what your horse says about your pokey fingers up there.

Also, for what you have been through with this horse, the last paragraph should not sound unfamiliar to you, or like something you haven't seen your vet do and explain to you. If it does, you may need choose a more sophisticated vet to help you.

[Huntertwo]

As a matter of fact, where I live, the trails are flat. I am not looking to sell him to anyone. However, I live in a metropolitan area where horse keeping is expensive. My choices are to keep him in a pasture situation, where I only get to see him once a week, if that, because it's so far away, or figure out a job he can do for me or maybe someone else.

It's very painful to contemplate. He's a very sociable horse--to know him is to love him. I miss seeing him everyday.

So I'm just asking if others have been in this situation, and if it worked out for them. I appreciate your perspective as a trail rider.

Oh, I misunderstood when you said you can not afford to keep two horses, so I assumed you were thinking of selling him as a trail horse.

If your trails are flat (you're very lucky:)) maybe you could lease him out as a trail horse to someone who just wants to do an easy ride?

Good luck....

[TheHorseProblem]

mvp, my vet told me that if I really wanted to know what was bothering him, I'd have to take him up to the vet hospital for more diagnostic imaging.

At this point, it feels like throwing good money after bad. He's 19, weak in his right hind, and even when he was going well in April, it was one bute a day school horse sound, if you know what I mean.

You may have convinced me to go one more round on this. He has a different vet up where he is now, so I could easily get a second opinion. I am definitely going to palpate him myself FWIW.

All this would be moot if the equity in my house had not gone *poof*.

Hunter, I know there are people who only want to do that type of riding. If he could stay sound for trail walking, and if I could find someone to share expenses in exchange for riding him, I could afford to find another horse to ride to keep pursuing my goals.

[CatOnLap]

I can't ride a limping horse, but I did.

What I mean is, I had part leases on a couple of "trail sound" horses in my youth- one was a foundered app mare that I discovered why she wouldn't do anything but walk- she was equally sore on all four. I quit riding her when I figured it out. The other was a navicular ex showjumper who would "work out" of his soreness after 10 minutes or so, but I had to end the lease for other reasons. Then there was my horse whose prognosis after a serious hind suspensory and other soft tissue injuries, was only 10% chance of being sound. I couldn't ride him at all. 2 years of stall and pasture rest with me thinking he'd only be a pasture ornament. Then he came pasture sound. Rode him and he still limped. Got a rehab trainer in and rode the horse "straight"- followed a vet protocol of gradually increasing exercise and like physio, yes sometimes the horse was in a little pain and we used bute judiciously during the rehab process of 1 year. The horse went on to be completely sound from then at age 12 until now at age 20. I wish you the same good luck with your horse and also echo the suggestion to use bute in small doses if it is of benefit.

[mvp]

Horses can tear suspensories high up. The prognosis isn't faboo, but here's what I'd do in order to start round 3 (or 12) cheaply:

To palpate: Flex the leg as your shoer would, your butt toward his head, so that the flexor tendons get loose and floppy. I'd hold the toe of the hoof in one hand since he may hank the leg away from you.

Then curl your hand around his cannon bone like a lobster claw. Reaching "behind" (toward the back of the cannon bone), find the suspensory and palpate up from there until you can't go farther because you have run into the back of the hock joint.

Google a picture if you can, but I think the suspensory attaches to the back of the cannon bone, between the splint bones, but joining with them, too. It also has another branch that crosses the joint of the lower hock and attaches to the lower row of brick-like bones in the hock.

I'll tell you how my vets went about diagnosing this when they thought it might be part of my horse's recent mystery lameness. They are now not convinced that he has a high suspensory issue (or they disagree about how much of that contributes to his problem), but I'll describe the stuff they did when asking the question:

I had two vets in a practice working on it-- a talented young'n and an older, unorthodox but just about clairvoyant freak. They did flexion tests, but those were not terribly useful since they can't distinguish hock and upper suspensory pain.

The diagnosis guru/tea leaves reader did the "lobster claw palpation" and the horse said "Ow! Geez! What are you doing?" more so there than elsewhere on his leg.

The younger vet then blocked him with a warning: You are just infusing the area with carbocain. A positive response may only produce a 50% improvement depending on where you got the anaesthetic versus where the lesion is. How unamerican! I want certainty, and fast, dammit.

She also US it, and found some disruption to the normal, linear pattern of collagen fibers. Make sure your vet uses the opposite leg as a control.

Finally (and later after some rehab for the suspensory hypothesis), they decided they needed to look at his hocks. A whole 'nother story, but the point is that they X-rayed and found some funk (OA or roughened bone) around the heads of the splint bones. Those may relate to this horse's known and standard hock arthritis (lower joint only), but may make things uncomfortable at the origin of the suspensory, too.

The bad news is that these injuries are a PITA to rehab and become chronic if not handled the right way. The good news is that you can use steroids (injected and topically when mixed with DMSO) to help with the healing. And many peeps did shockwave therapy as well.

But mess around by yourself and then get the *right vet*-- not necessarily the right machine-- to get you a diagnosis you can take to the bank.

[Proffie]

I feel your pain. I have a 17 y.o. mare who has had lameness problems for about 8 years now. About 3 years ago, I gave up trying to get a firm diagnosis. I spent about 10k and countless rehab regimens before I just said ENOUGH.

She has good and bad days. When she looks comfortable, I throw a saddle on and head out on the trail. She tells me if she feels like trotting. If not, we just meander around for a half hour or so. My current vet is very supportive of me hacking her around, even if she take a bad step or two.

Earlier this year, I finally saved enough $$ to buy a second horse. Before that, I rode lesson horses or friend's horses. So many people appreciated having an experienced adult rider in the barn who didn't have a "ridable" horse to monopolize their time! I actually rode more before I bought my new horse!

The whole experience makes me appreciate having this mare even more. She's a great friend who was very talented and forgiving under saddle before she went lame. Just having her in my life in any capacity is cool with me. I guess I've got different priorities now; she can't give me what I thought I wanted, but she gives me what I really needed from a horse. And it wasn't ribbons after all!!

[TheHorseProblem]

The whole experience makes me appreciate having this mare even more. She's a great friend who was very talented and forgiving under saddle before she went lame. Just having her in my life in any capacity is cool with me. I guess I've got different priorities now; she can't give me what I thought I wanted, but she gives me what I really needed from a horse. And it wasn't ribbons after all!!
:sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile:

Thank you, COTHers, for all the great sympathy and advice. There is a lot to think about here, and to do.

[TheHorseProblem]

Back in June, I sent my horse to live up at a ranch with huge paddocks and great feed. He lived out and pretty much did nothing for five months. In that time, I visited him once a week or so, and I always turned him out in the arena and asked him to trot around "just to see." Around September, he looked...better, so I had the vet out. But when the vet trotted him straight, he was lamer than ever! More x-rays and blocking, and still nothing found.

But because I missed having a horse, I moved him back to my local boarding stable where I could hand walk him, and I was hoping get him sound enough to be my trail horse. He got new shoes a week after the move. I had him clipped to make evening work easier. A few days after the new shoes, I tacked him up, just so he could get used to the weight of a saddle on his back again. Halfway into our hand walk, the little arena we use for free lungeing became available, so I threw him in there and picked up the lunge whip, "just to see." He was barely bobbing his head--barely!!! I gave him one bute and the next day, he was sound on the lunge line.

I started riding him again, just walking, adding some trot, and now we are up to full work.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will "stick" this time. I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to have my horse back.:D:D:D

[TimelyImpulse]

I had a ??? cross that was lame at the trot, always. Didn't exhibit any lameness at the walk or canter (or gallop, bucking or farting) around the field. We palpated, x-rayed, blocked, shod, unshod, trimmed, buted, then finally ultrasounded and found a very old, very set splint that impinged on a ligament that only irritated him at the trot. He was bought and sold as a trail horse, cleared by the vet for it, but made sure his new owner was fully aware of the splint.

[marta]

in my experience soft tissue injuries sometimes leave a horse feeling pretty good but not 100% sound when trotted on pavement or circles. i don't necessarily think that light trail hacks would be a problem for a horse like that so long as the condition doesn't worsen. let me clarify that i'm talking about "healed" injuries and not recommending the hacks while the horse is in early stages of recovery. when i got an okay to hand walk my mare (suspensory rehab) i ground drove her on trails. we both liked it a lot better than wondering around the arena ;)