Not so ideal turnout? WWYD? *Unfortunate Update*

[AlterTurnout]

Looking for some opinions on my turnout situation.

So I board my horse close to the city that I live in. I really like my barn, the coaches are great, the feed is great, and I like the staff and my fellow boarders. My problem is with the turnout and I don't know if I should look for another barn to keep my horse at solely because of it.

The setup of the barn is small herds (4-6) in largish paddocks. My horse currently does not live in the herd environment because each time I have tried she has gotten hurt (each time resulting in vet bills and time off) and now I am too chicken to try again. So she is in individual turnout.

Individual turnout gives me a pen that is 12 feet by 24 feet with a shelter. Due to the set up of the shelter in the paddock my horse can't really move at more than a walk in the paddock (bad). She has neighbours so she can have social interaction (good). And she has a view (good). Because she is outside she also has great ventilation (good) and the ground drains well and she has rubber mats in the shelter. She is worked 4-5 days a week. She spent last winter in this set up and was ok, but I worried about her fitness and development (she's 4) because other than me riding her she wasn't moving much on her own.

So my gut really doesn't like the fact that my horse can't move around much in her paddock - but then again is any boarding situation ever perfect? The BO and BM aren't offering any other alternative than throw her in with a herd and let her sink or swim or stick with the individual turnout - they are not into coddling horses. Normally they would construct a pen for a new horse to live in while everyone gets used to one another but I tried that and my horse lasted less then 30 minutes before she destroyed the pen.

If I leave this barn I leave my instructors, program and friends behind. I've been in crazy boarding barn situations in the past so I am really hesitant to make a rash decision. An on top of that I don't really know if I can find an alternative that is better as I am not that familiar with the area.

Tell me, would the individual turnout that I describe be a deal breaker for you?

[LD1129]

This is a tough situation but would you be able to turn her out in a larger paddock (where the other horses live) when they come in? I would try that make sure she is ok in the large pasture alone then maybe go clean some tack? Then she gets to stretch her legs for 20-30 minutes?

[Beasmom]

Not a deal breaker for me. Not ideal, but if the horse is worked 4 to 5 times a week, she's not suffering. Is there a round pen or other where you can allow her to blow off steam from time to time? Perhaps if no one else is using the arena, and it's OK with management, turn her out to play or free lunge her.

Hand graze her occasionally. Can you give her an individual turnout for a while in the paddocks before or after the other horses are turned out? From the sound of it, YOU would have to take charge of that. It's a lot to ask of the management.

At four, she's still a baby. As she matures, she may be able to be turned out with others. With any group turnout situation, there's always a risk.

Sounds like everything else is all right. I'd stay.

[Come Shine]

She has neighbours so she can have social interaction (good). And she has a view (good). Because she is outside she also has great ventilation (good) and the ground drains well and she has rubber mats in the shelter. She is worked 4-5 days a week. She spent last winter in this set up and was ok, but I worried about her fitness and development (she's 4) because other than me riding her she wasn't moving much on her own.

Tell me, would the individual turnout that I describe be a deal breaker for you?

Perhaps, if she is getting along with the neighbors she can see, it may be worth another try at reintroducing her? Is there a buddy she can bond with individually first, and then try?

However, even if she was to stay in individual turn-out, I don't know that I would move. It sounds like she is happy and healthy. Certainly there are a lot of horses that get by on a lot less turn out.

[AlterTurnout]

I did do that last winter - on her days off I would show up late and turn her out in the arena. Some times she would tear around like and idiot and other times she would just hang out in a corner.

The barn I am at should be willing to turn her out in the arena a couple times a week in the mornings when the rings aren't being used. They did it last year for a few weeks before they decided it wasn't worth it since she would just hang out in the corner. I will ask them about reinstating it even if she doesn't make use of her freedom. It would at least be better than nothing.

[sublimequine]

I did do that last winter - on her days off I would show up late and turn her out in the arena. Some times she would tear around like and idiot and other times she would just hang out in a corner.

The barn I am at should be willing to turn her out in the arena a couple times a week in the mornings when the rings aren't being used. They did it last year for a few weeks before they decided it wasn't worth it since she would just hang out in the corner. I will ask them about reinstating it even if she doesn't make use of her freedom. It would at least be better than nothing.

That sounds like a good idea. If they're not keen on it.. offer to pay for it. ;)

[Tif_Ann]

I agree with Come Shine - how does she do with one or two horses? Can you introduce her to someone in the larger herd and turn them out together first to see what happens? We have a 15 month old at our boarding stables who is getting ready to go out to the big horse pasture but first she will be turned out with my pretty dominant 16.2 hh gelding who is a great babysitter and already loves her dearly. As she gets older he's started being less patient with her but she gets the benefit of learning her manners with just one horse and then having a "big brother" when she's turned out with the big herd. Is that an option for your girl?

Otherwise - I guess I'm curious what kind of injuries? What's happening to her? What does she do that's so severe it requires a vet call?

[baysngreys]

My horses stalls are 12' X 24' so that would never be acceptable as TO for me.

A four year old needs much more space to move around. Heck, any horse needs more room than that to move around!

Horses are designed to move and graze constantly. So your horse gets a few scatches and dings, at least she'll be healthier in mind and body.

[AlterTurnout]

Perhaps, if she is getting along with the neighbors she can see, it may be worth another try at reintroducing her? Is there a buddy she can bond with individually first, and then try?

However, even if she was to stay in individual turn-out, I don't know that I would move. It sounds like she is happy and healthy. Certainly there are a lot of horses that get by on a lot less turn out.

I would love to do this - the BM isn't interested in risking another horse (because if my horse gets hurt again I am not going to follow through) and because of the time and space issues. It's fully commit and accept the bumps/bruises/injuries as they happen or stay in individual turnout and I understand this.

I'd love to try her with one or two other buddies instead of the 4-5 others but the property is small with lots of horses - we are close to the city where turnout space is scarce. So it's either a large group or none at all. The horses are all out 24 hours so I can't steal a larger paddock for turnout time.

I am happy to hear that it wouldn't be considered an issue for many. I don't have too many horsey friends I feel comfortable bouncing my feelings on this topic off of since they all subscribe to the current situation.

[Camstock]

I'm with Come Shine on this one.

Young horses need to learn social skills so yes, they get banged up by those doing the teaching as they are learning. You are probably through the worst of it.

I'd ask the barn manager if there is a sweet horse that gets along with everybody who could live with your guy in the small paddock for a day or two, then, when they are relaxed together, turn those two out with the small herd. This technique has worked really well for me.

[BuddyRoo]

It sounds like their paddocks just aren't big enough to accommodate a "herd" because the horses can't get away from each other.

I think everyone has their priorities...when I am looking for a boarding facility, turnout it a big deal to me. I want turnout. Lots of turnout. The more the better. The bigger the better. The situation you are describing would not suit me...but that's just me.

If it were a temporary situation, I could live with it. But I couldn't keep my horses in a space that small long term.

It sounds like the rest of the situation is great though...so maybe it's time to just start looking and see what other options might be out there. Since you're not concerned about her well being at this point (ie: nothing "bad" is happening) you can take your time.

[Camstock]

whoops, we posted at about the same time. Good luck.

Edited to add, maybe if you asked a good friend at the barn with a kind horse, they would help by putting their horse in with yours for a day or two, working openly with the BM. The BM probably just isn't into the hassle of trying it since you have (sorry) put a stipulation on it that if your horse gets hurt at all you won't go forward with herd turnout. Perhaps your expectation is a little stringent (?)

[AlterTurnout]

Otherwise - I guess I'm curious what kind of injuries? What's happening to her? What does she do that's so severe it requires a vet call?

Kick to the hock - looked awful but ended up not being terribly serious (emergency call).
Kick to the cannon bone - this one required two rounds of antibiotics (emergency call).
Strained stifle - significant time off but fully recovered.
Other leg abraisions that required 2xdaily wrapping.
Misc leg swellings/bruising - cold hosing, light work.

All in the last year - keep in mind she only spent maybe a month total with other horses.

[AlterTurnout]

whoops, we posted at about the same time. Good luck.

Edited to add, maybe if you asked a good friend at the barn with a kind horse, they would help by putting their horse in with yours for a day or two, working openly with the BM. The BM probably just isn't into the hassle of trying it since you have (sorry) put a stipulation on it that if your horse gets hurt at all you won't go forward with herd turnout. Perhaps your expectation is a little stringent (?)

It's very selfish I know, but I really don't deal well with the stress. If it was something insignificant I wouldn't be concerned but it was an injury where she would end up being pulled out and isolated for recovery I wouldn't put her back.

[AlterTurnout]

It sounds like their paddocks just aren't big enough to accommodate a "herd" because the horses can't get away from each other.

I think everyone has their priorities...when I am looking for a boarding facility, turnout it a big deal to me. I want turnout. Lots of turnout. The more the better. The bigger the better. The situation you are describing would not suit me...but that's just me.

.

I feel the same way about turnout hence my conflict. Last year I saw it as temporary (as I was planning on trying again, then it didn't work out again) now it's looking permanent and I don't like it so much - but I don't live in an area where turnout is prevalent either.

[Beasmom]

Given your litany of injuries, I wouldn't turn her out. You're better off finding other ways to offer her play time.

LOTS of horses do just fine without extensive turnout.

[Ambrey]

That is how all horses live where I am! Our stable has 12x24 outdoor corrals or 12x12 box stalls- that's it. And that's normal for around here!

So we do make it work. Our version of "turnout" is either a 50x100 pen or a larger arena (depending on whether it's being used) for 15 minutes a day. That's assuming we go out and turn them out- many horses never get turned out.

My horse has lived like this his entire life and yes I think it has hampered his social skills! He bonds most closely with humans and although he's very herdbound to our pony (his neighbor) we can't turn them out together because he gets really aggressive. On the other hand, I can run around in turnout with him and he has a blast. Weird stuff.

So you really have to decide how you want her to live the rest of her life. I think if you want her to be able to be in a turnout situation some time down the road, you need to figure out how to teach her some horse social skills now- I think finding some gentle pasturemates for limited turnout is a good idea!

[Camstock]

I get it OP.

I had a client who was in a very similar situation. We worked out a deal where I handled the acclimation to the herd while she went on a cruise in the Bahamas. When she got home, the horses were grazing peacefully in the pasture, no lasting harm to anyone. Your mileage may vary, of course. Good luck.

[Angela Freda]

The barn I am at is so fantastic at this, the best I have ever seen.
They introduce each new horse to EACH horse in the herd they are to enter, in a smaller paddock [room to get away from one another, but also small enough to acquaint].
When everyone has decided where newbie is on the pecking order, the new horse goes out with the whole herd.

I kept my horse in for the first few years I had him [I sorely regret it] and it is now one of the top 'must haves' when barn searching. Make a list of your wants/priorities OP and then decide if the situation is right for you.

[Camstock]

That is excellent.

[Huntertwo]

If land is scarce where you live, as you said, chances are if you move, you might end up in the same turnout situation.

IMO if she is ridden 4-5 times a week, I'd stay.

My mare's turnout isn't huge, but enough for a little lope and buck.

I take her into the arena a few times a week to free lunge her and she loves it. Maybe you need to initiate the lunging instead of just turning her out to stand there.

Like you, I also ride several times a week. I find between the free lunging and riding, she is fine.

Other than the turnout, you seem to really enjoy everything else about the barn.

[Chef Jade]

That is how all horses live where I am! Our stable has 12x24 outdoor corrals or 12x12 box stalls- that's it. And that's normal for around here!

So we do make it work. Our version of "turnout" is either a 50x100 pen or a larger arena (depending on whether it's being used) for 15 minutes a day. That's assuming we go out and turn them out- many horses never get turned out.

My horse has lived like this his entire life and yes I think it has hampered his social skills! He bonds most closely with humans and although he's very herdbound to our pony (his neighbor) we can't turn them out together because he gets really aggressive. On the other hand, I can run around in turnout with him and he has a blast. Weird stuff.

So you really have to decide how you want her to live the rest of her life. I think if you want her to be able to be in a turnout situation some time down the road, you need to figure out how to teach her some horse social skills now- I think finding some gentle pasturemates for limited turnout is a good idea!

Yep! This is how we (or horses) live in So Cal. Most adjust, and I have (knock on wood) rarely had any behaviour, social, or lameness issues by keeping my horses this way.

If your horse isn't exhibiting any signs of frustruation or anxiety, I don't think you have a problem.

[dmj]

Echoing ChefJade and Ambrey, this is how my horse has lived his whole life and he is perfectly happy. I make sure he gets some good free galloping/playing time in the large arena every so often - he is a TB after all :)

I will say that he is socially not the greatest with other horse - have tried to turn him out with friends' horses to see what would happen and he kicked them :( Sorry PJ and Jack! :)

[AlterTurnout]

Thanks for all of the responses, they are making me feel better about making the small turnout option work.

The BM is going to get back to me on what horses my horse would end up living with - from there I will make a decision and also ask if they can accommodate a more gradual introduction (though I am not holding out a lot of hope here, I have brought it up before without success).

Assuming we can't work something out/I chicken out, I will try to negotiate regular turnout in one of the rings, I'm ok with paying for it as long as it isn't an unreasonable fee.

In the mean time I will quietly look around and see what else is out there in my area - because unless I know my options I won't be in a good place to negotiate any special treatment/services.

PS. I think I am good client - usually not too big of a PITA and I spend a fair chunk each month for coaching with them - so hopefully they will be open minded.

[AlterTurnout]

**Update**

So two days ago I turned my horse out with the one she's been living next to for the last month into a nice large paddock. They had a small skirmish the first day that resulted in a bit of skin loss and some bruising on my horse (other horse is fine). They then quickly became inseparable and joined at the hip. I was starting to think that it was going to work out.

However today I got the dreaded day time call from the BO - my horse had the snot kicked out of her this morning and now has a gaping fussing draining wound above her knee and multiple cuts and abrasions over the rest of her body plus she was kicked in one hock for the second time in two days and the other hock looks like it's capped. She's really sore, back on her own and on bute and antibiotics.

I decided to try the turnout situation because my horse (who is is only four) recently was diagnosed (2 weeks ago) with some minor arthritic changes in both hocks which had been bothering her since her last convalescence. Because of this I am no longer willing to have her live in such a small space either in the winter or year round.

I am so disappointed. I told the BO that I am going to go and look for another barn.

This just sucks. I am upset and so stressed out about finding something else that has what she needs in terms of turnout and what I need in terms of a coach.

Tell me - stall overnight and ample individual turnout during the day is better than 12x24 pen 24hrs a day? because I think that's the best I will find.

[Bluey]

I don't know that I blame all on the little turn out, if the horse was getting daily good exercise by a person.

In Europe, we didn't have turn out, horses were stabled either in box stalls or standing stalls and they were taken out to be ridden at least once a day and some days more than once, regularly for longer trail rides.
No one had regular turn outs, there was no place to turn out, other than very rarely in the three day event field, or for several months rest once every year or three.
We warmed them up very, very carefully, something not all do here and we cooled off even more carefully, always spending some minutes running water over their legs after every ride or longing or free exercise period in the arena.
Horses stayed just as sound under good management of care and exercise, living in those small quarters, as I have seen here living in all kinds of turn out conditions.

Don't blame yourself, because when you look at the whole picture, there is way too many factors to say what may happen or not with a horse.
As long as you do the best you can reasonably do, it is ok, don't let anyone make you feel guilty, not even yourself.
If you had the horse in other situations, who knows, you may have had other problems also.:(

I hope your horse recovers well and quickly.:)

[Woodland]

Wow - sad

[shea'smom]

Oh no! Poor baby. As a BO, I worry about turnout. It is a nightmare when a horse hurts another one. You just can't make it infalible, except for private turnout, which isn't always workable.
I hope your girl feels better soon. What a shame.

[VCT]

Aww.. sorry to hear about your horse. Hope she recovers quickly and completely. Good luck in your barn search...

[Meredith Clark]

Oh that's so disappointing! I worry about turnout, my 2 horses are in a HUGE field with 5 other horses and there still seems to be issues sometimes. It's a co-op barn and the barn owners try to let the boarders do what they want most of the time. A boarder came with a new horse and just turned her out with no over-the-fence introduction time, I guess the owner stayed and watched for a while and as soon as she left the BO said all hell broke loose!

The sad thing was I was told she was going to bring a new horse and I worried and worried that she wasn't going to introduce them slowly but I didn't want to be a PITA boarder and try to tell people what to do.

It's really hard to introduce new horses to a herd, and if you're not the barn owner it's frustrating having to deal with random horses coming in and out and it's effect on your own horse. One of my geldings is now obsessed with the new mare (who is only staying for a month) so that's going to be fun when she leaves :lol:

[Dressage.For.Life.]

My TB was always at the bottom. The very bottom. Before I bought him, at the last 2 barns I had him at...pretty much every time I went to the barn he had some new bite or cut. Luckily it was usually minor, but he was always covered in bites and the like.

Last Nov. I moved him to a different barn and the plan was to continue to keep him outside 24/7 unless the weather got too bad. He was going to be out with 4 other horses as individual paddocks were for the training horses.

This barn does things a certain way- They remove all the horses except the one at the bottom, and they add the new horse in. Over the course of 3-7 days the other horses were added back in, one by one. In doing this they created a new herd.

Doing this takes a little work, but it's definitely worth a try. No horse should live in a 12'x24' pen, and especially not a growing youngster.

Actually a few months later, my guy was number 1. He'd never been number 1. Ever.

The worst thing that happened was him getting kicked on (the very upper part of) his left fore. Luckily the horse who kicked him didn't have shoes, and he was never lame. He got a little Bute when it happened and then I kept him in for a day or so (early spring, so it was muddy). I also did water therapy 1-2x daily for about a week (the barn helped me) as precaution. By the way, this happened this spring, while he was fighting for dominance, so it wasn't related to just adding him to the herd.

Good luck and keep us updated on what happens!

[nightsong]

Tell me - stall overnight and ample individual turnout during the day is better than 12x24 pen 24hrs a day? because I think that's the best I will find.

Yes. They get protected, SAFE time to sleep at night in the stall (because that is what horses, as prey animals, need in order to REST) PLUS the abilityto stretch their legs, get the kinks out, learn to MOVE, balance and develop on their own, grow and develop naturally during the 'turn-out." 12x24 is just a stall.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

so, so sorry! I feel you pain - been there, done that.

I am a huge believer in 24/7 turnout for so many health reasons (of course, with access to appropriate shelter at all times).

[Dazednconfused]

Believe it or not, most people outside of COTHland are not nearly as obsessed over turnout. Your horse will be fine. They are remarkably adjustable, adaptable creatures. If I had one that was so accident prone with other horses that I was trying to train and ride on a regular basis, and the horse seemed happy, healthy, and in good weight, I would not worry about the lack of a large turnout with a group in the slightest.

[trubandloki]

Believe it or not, most people outside of COTHland are not nearly as obsessed over turnout. Your horse will be fine. They are remarkably adjustable, adaptable creatures. If I had one that was so accident prone with other horses that I was trying to train and ride on a regular basis, and the horse seemed happy, healthy, and in good weight, I would not worry about the lack of a large turnout with a group in the slightest.

I agree.

There are lots of horses that get little or no turn out (but get regular exercise) that do just fine on all fronts.

[VCT]

Believe it or not, most people outside of COTHland are not nearly as obsessed over turnout. Your horse will be fine. They are remarkably adjustable, adaptable creatures. If I had one that was so accident prone with other horses that I was trying to train and ride on a regular basis, and the horse seemed happy, healthy, and in good weight, I would not worry about the lack of a large turnout with a group in the slightest.

I disagree. In my years of managing sizeable boarding/show barns I have found turnout to be very important to most horse owners because of both the mental and physical benefits to the horse. I don't think it's just a COTH thing. It is a natural part of a horses biology to be moving around most of the time. Sure they can adapt to being stall kept but I don't think it's good for them and I don't think COTH is the only area where you'll find the majority feel that way.

[Bluey]

I disagree. In my years of managing sizeable boarding/show barns I have found turnout to be very important to most horse owners because of both the mental and physical benefits to the horse. I don't think it's just a COTH thing. It is a natural part of a horses biology to be moving around most of the time. Sure they can adapt to being stall kept but I don't think it's good for them and I don't think COTH is the only area where you'll find the majority feel that way.

As long as we keep horses for our benefit, there are going to have to be trade offs.
Ideally, we would not demand kids spend 1/3 of the day sitting in classrooms either, or so many people in office chairs, or working an assembly line, but we all cope.

We try to do best for our horses, but in many instances, keeping them confined, if managed properly, of course, with time out for exercise regularly, it is ok, even if not ideal.

We just don't live in an ideal world and have to live with whatever conditions we and our horses find is best for the situation.

The alternative to that, as the discussion is today with the animal rights fanatics, is if we and our animals have to manage at all or give up our own world and animals, in the name of some of what we do not being ideally perfect.
My answer to that is the old and true that, doing the best we can, for the situation at hand, most of us and our animals are doing fine, we are all very adaptable.:yes:

[Bogie]

So sorry about your horse.

My horse got kicked last week in turnout and I felt terrible. He required x-rays, extensive antibiotics etc.

I have to remind myself that horses get hurt even when in individual turnout and that my horse loves being part of the herd.

I've had my various horses out 24/7 with shelter for 8 years now and have had three injuries. Once was a new horse and someone didn't read my instructions and turned her out with the herd (amazing what can happen during the 15 minutes when I was taking my daughter to school) although I'd specifically written to keep her in. The other two were pasture injuries.

I hope your horse recovers soon. Introducing horses into a herd can take time and patience.

Here's an article I wrote for my blog that might help.

How horses make friends (http://equineink.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/how-horses-make-friends/)

[VCT]

As long as we keep horses for our benefit, there are going to have to be trade offs.
Ideally, we would not demand kids spend 1/3 of the day sitting in classrooms either, or so many people in office chairs, or working an assembly line, but we all cope.

We try to do best for our horses, but in many instances, keeping them confined, if managed properly, of course, with time out for exercise regularly, it is ok, even if not ideal.

We just don't live in an ideal world and have to live with whatever conditions we and our horses find is best for the situation.

The alternative to that, as the discussion is today with the animal rights fanatics, is if we and our animals have to manage at all or give up our own world and animals, in the name of some of what we do not being ideally perfect.
My answer to that is the old and true that, doing the best we can, for the situation at hand, most of us and our animals are doing fine, we are all very adaptable.:yes:

Bluey, I completely agree with you. We (you, me, anyone) can only do the best they can with the situations available, etc. though, of course, there is a point where "the best one can do" may not be good enough. Not saying that is the case in this situation OR in regards to stall-keeping horses - I am talking more about "benign" neglect cases, etc. I personally would not keep a horse or horses if I had to keep it in a stall almost all the time, but that is a personal choice.

I was just pointing out that I don't think COTH is the only place where you'll find a majority of people who think turnout is very important. Also, just because the ideal is not attainable in all, or even many, circumstances, doesn't mean it is worthless or that people who strive for the ideal are "obsessed".

[marta]

i took my mare from a 24/7 turnout in a large pasture to stall by night, turnout by day barn. she flourished at the new barn. it offered me control over her diet and over her turnout situation.

i used to think 24/7 turnout was the best way to go but while that may be true if they're in your backyard and you are able to control their turnout buddies and their diet, that is rarely a situation in a boarding context.

and i'm sorry about your horse being injured. we tried to turn my mare out with 2 other mares last winter (she's in a dry lot in spring/summer/fall). all seemed fine initially and then the young TB mare turned on my mare chasing her all over the huge pasture and repeatedly pinning my mare in the corners where she proceeded to kick the crap out of her. i thought she broke bones for sure.

luckily my mare got away with "only" a small puncture wound on her shoulder and just a badly bruised hind end. the puncture wound healed pretty fast but required multiple vet visits. the bruised hind end took a long time to heal. i was pouring sore no more on it, giving her bute but even a month later she was terribly stiff. i actually thought that her pelvis was broken and inquired w/ the vet about it. but it was just soft tissue bruising. so keep that in mind if your horse still looks stiff a month from now. it just takes a while.

[BuddyRoo]

I have had my horses in all sorts of different turnout configurations. I really do believe that more turnout is better...but there are other factors that have recently changed my hard liner stance.

I moved my girls on Labor Day to a barn that only offers about 2-5 hours of turnout daily. I was very worried that one of my mares in particular would freak, but my previous boarding situation was just getting worse and worse--though they were turned out--24/7 even though I was paying for a stall--they just weren't happy. And neither was I.

Moved the girls, and within days, they were HAPPY and RELAXED again. There's enough turnout space with a small group to keep them happy. The barn is very busy, so lots to keep their minds occupied. Hay 4 x a day. It's a HAPPY barn. Every horse in the place is in good health, mentally happy, and I can honestly say, I've NEVER been at a barn where that was the case before.

Wish you the best of luck in finding a new place.

[Ozone]

Seems like the mare was happy in her little run in situation and probably would have been ideal to her all to begin with (before the herd situation and numerous injuries)to be in the run in situation. Sometimes owners *think* they know what is best for their horse (or better yet, better for the owners mind ;) ) but in reality that is not the case half the time.

You ride her 4-5X per week. Do that and "Play" with her, T/O her in the riding ring when no one is using it. There are 4 year old top show horses out there that never get turned out and I am sure they are just fine with their program.

I would be happy with the run in if it was my horse. She is still moving around in that turnout. Would you rather her in a huge turnout, he buck, run and hurt herself again?
She seems like the loner type of horse to begin with. It's just not worth her hurting herself at every Let's Try It Again Herd turnout.

[Auventera Two]

My horses stalls are 12' X 24' so that would never be acceptable as TO for me.

That's exactly what I was thinking! :eek: My horses have STALLS bigger than this horse gets for turnout. Not acceptable to me. Sorry, but I won't ever sacrifice turnout. Not worth the health risks, in my opinion.

Crap, I stress out over my stallion when he's locked in his paddock, which is 80x200.

I'm a stickler on turnout. There are fifty million calming supplements available because we want to take performance bred horses, stick them in a little stall/paddock, feed them grain and enriched hay/feed, pull them out once a day for a 45 minute ride, and expect them to behave. Unbelievable. Makes NO sense to me at all.

[hollyhorse2000]

It sounds like your horse may not have good "social skills" and thus the frequent end result of what sounds like pretty substantial beatings. I'd assume a little nip or kick here or there to be normal. What she's getting, doesn't. Not sure a change to a different place is going to make her magically end up in a herd where she is not hurt . . .

For various health reasons, my mare has spent much of the last two years stalled with only two or so hours of turnout (sometimes none at all). She's ridden five days a week and hand-grazed seven days a week. She is totally fine. She is from Germany and was a former show horse, so perhaps she didn't get a lot of turnout in her lifetime? Not sure, but I try very hard to get her turned out for at least a few hours and that seems to satisfy her needs to socialize and roll . . .

[Chief2]

I think the OP has it right. It's time to move. 12' x 24' is the size of a foaling stall. My dog's kennel is bigger than that, and he's a Lhasa Apso!. :eek: It is a real tribute to equines that they can become so well acclimatized to the craziness we submit them to in pursuing our own pleasures. It will be well worth the gas to get your horse into a better turnout situation, where she can walk about in peace and self-exercise her body and de-stress her mind. Larger turnout, and more of it, will pay itself back ten times over for her.

Congratulations on deciding to move.

[Sport]

You may find that to start she can't handle 24/7 turnout in a group. You may need to gradually work her up to that. She may never handle a group situation.

I have one gelding who goes out with one other horse. I think we have had him in groups of 3. If there is more than that his inability to socialize becomes very clear. In the small group of one or two I think we have just been lucky and have found others that tolerate him. Otherwise he gets himself worked up and crashes through a fence, gets in a fight with another horse, etc. This is a 17,2 hand horse that got beat up by 2 medium ponies so badly that he was in shock when the vet arrived.

To start with we were lucky if he would stay our for more than 2 hours without having a complete meltdown. He can generally stay out most of the day now with no problems, but there are days for no know reason (too hot, too many bugs, the sky not the right shade of blue) that he will lose it and need to come back in within the first hour.

I am lucky that he lives at the facility that my parents run. Not all barn owners would be as tolerant as they have been in trying to find turnout situations that work for him and won't end up with any other horses injured.

I am all for as much turnout as possible, but each horse is an individual and not all realize that they are supposed to like as much turnout as possible.

[cloudyandcallie]

I don't know that I blame all on the little turn out, if the horse was getting daily good exercise by a person.

In Europe, we didn't have turn out, horses were stabled either in box stalls or standing stalls and they were taken out to be ridden at least once a day and some days more than once, regularly for longer trail rides.
No one had regular turn outs, there was no place to turn out, other than very rarely in the three day event field, or for several months rest once every year or three.
We warmed them up very, very carefully, something not all do here and we cooled off even more carefully, always spending some minutes running water over their legs after every ride or longing or free exercise period in the arena.
Horses stayed just as sound under good management of care and exercise, living in those small quarters, as I have seen here living in all kinds of turn out conditions.

Don't blame yourself, because when you look at the whole picture, there is way too many factors to say what may happen or not with a horse.
As long as you do the best you can reasonably do, it is ok, don't let anyone make you feel guilty, not even yourself.
If you had the horse in other situations, who knows, you may have had other problems also.:(

I hope your horse recovers well and quickly.:)

Ah Bluey is right. My WB came from europe and does best in a stall, however I wanted him to have turnout. Fortunately he learned good social skills (and has had some alpha mares who protected him) and was able to keep out of the way of some of the more aggressive horses in different herds, except when he is distracted by humans. My mare was fortunate enough to pair up with geldings who protected her in herds.
But some horses just never have the skills to survive out with other others (or are too young, too old, or too weak) I've seen that in horses at different barns. Unless you can find a horse who is just as or more omega than yours, she will continue to get injured.
You might try pairing her up with a gelding, as my mare always got along better with them that she did with other mares.

But do what is best for your horse. If turnout results in injury, keep her in a paddock and hand graze her. The pressure for 24/7 turnout is not always best for horses.

[joiedevie99]

I would vote for stall overnight and nice individual turnout during the day.

[2foals]

Some horses are just harder to find good turnout buddies for. And a kick can be a career--or life--ending proposition. I lost a nice mare who was carelessly switched to a new group of pasture mates by a BO. One kick, broken leg. Sure, when new horses are introduced there might be some initial bites or kicks, but the level you describe is too much.

While time outside and herd situations are healthy and normal and natural for horses, moving to a new "family" every year or couple of years the way many boarded horses do is NOT natural. Some horses learn to be very aggressive to adapt. I am a big believer in small, hand-picked turnout groups. The weenies with the weenies, the babies with the babies, etc. The hard part is dominant horses--they have to go with someone that they just happen to like, or with someone who is tough but mild mannered.

To the OP, hopefully your horse recovers fine, but if I were you I would look for a barn that could do semi-private turnout for your horse.

[whbar158]

Turnout is something that can make or break some horses then you have ones that could care less. My horse is one that doesn't really care, he has never been in a herd situation since I got him (have had him almost 10 years) and has done fine. I am sure he was in a herd before I got him, but he came to my house where we had 2 other ponies and that was it. He is not one to really run/buck need the extra space. He is usually top though, he then went to live at a show barn where the show horses were turned out in groups of 2-3 or kept in a dry lot. He lived in a dry lot for awhile, it was boring, he is a pig he wanted the grass and learned to open the gate! So then he was turned out finally on the grass paddocks (we were worried about founder) and did fine. They were a good size though, and if the weather was nice sometimes they were out 24/7. Now he lives at a school barn and most horses are in a herd, but he goes out in a small paddock with one other horse none of the fields have any grass he loves his small paddock he can see the barn, see all the kids. I am sure at the show barn if there had been more going on around his dry lot he would have been happier. He would probably be fine in a herd, but I have never seen him out with one, and now at age 20 and spending almost half his life like this (maybe more, who knows what his turn out was like for the first 11 years) we don't want to change it. Then again I think this horse could live in his stall 24/7 as long as enough humans came by to visit!

I think that horses that are going to be show horses need to be able to stay in a small space and be ok with it and have an ok energy level without much turn out. It may not be everyone's ideal but it does work, and many horses do fine with it. If your horse can not handle it change something, but if they are ok then let it be, if it's not broke don't fix it.

To the OP I am sorry about your horse, but honestly I would not be bothered by the turn out if the horse is fine with it. Would it be better if she could have individual in a bigger place? Yes, but if she is happy then let her be happy.

[anabug]

How injured does your horse get? My horse was low man in the herd at his first boarding barn and I just armored him up like crazy with a Kensington fly sheet and neck cover. I put it over his winter blanket when it was cold.

[nightsong]

:eek: My horses have STALLS bigger than this horse gets for turnout. Not acceptable to me. Sorry, but I won't ever sacrifice turnout. Not worth the health risks, in my opinion.

I'm a stickler on turnout. There are fifty million calming supplements available because we want to take performance bred horses, stick them in a little stall/paddock, feed them grain and enriched hay/feed, pull them out once a day for a 45 minute ride, and expect them to behave. Unbelievable. Makes NO sense to me at all.

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes.

[nightsong]

It sounds like your horse may not have good "social skills" and thus the frequent end result of what sounds like pretty substantial beatings. I'd assume a little nip or kick here or there to be normal. What she's getting, doesn't. Not sure a change to a different place is going to make her magically end up in a herd where she is not hurt . . .
.

Yes. This is the unfortunate result of keeping horses in isolation cells (called 'stalls"). They haven't had the CHANCE to learn how to interact with other horses, because they haven't ever DONE it. There have been other threads on teaching horses this skill; I seem to recall them recommending turning the unsocialized horse out with a 'teacher".

[egontoast]

I would not experiment with turning her out with other horses any more. It's not worth it. People will continue to make you feel badly about individual turnout but sometimes it is the best thing. I have some that are in groups and some that are individual. They all seem content with the situation.

You have to decide what is best for you and your horse and not be too influenced or bothered by other people's views of what is necessary for your horse's wellbeing.

Obviously some people felt you should persevere with the group turnout in spite of the repeated serious injuries . That has not been good advice.

You know your horse .

[Ozone]

Yes. This is the unfortunate result of keeping horses in isolation cells (called 'stalls"). They haven't had the CHANCE to learn how to interact with other horses, because they haven't ever DONE it. There have been other threads on teaching horses this skill; I seem to recall them recommending turning the unsocialized horse out with a 'teacher".

Are your horses all in herd turn out 365 24/7 ???? You must have backyard horses & horses that you do not ride consistantly?

Because, I cannot see a show horse, or a consistant work horse turned out 365 24/7 .... turned out in the heat of summer with bugs all over them, stomping their feet, biting their sides. Or in Winter in -10 degrees with their Rambo Duo on but one unhappy horse standing in the middle of the covered pasture wishing some one would take him in from the wind.

My horse is turned out BUT, really he loves his CELL ...(stall) with fans on him in hot weather, no bugs. Warm and toasty in his blankets in Winter ... no wind on him.


I am all for turn out but I think this has become a turnout thread and a bash the celled up horse thread... which is silly.

We are talking about a young mare here that obvioulsy does not like a herd. That's not the barn's fault, it is just the horse in question.

Quality show horses never get turned out but get more riding and attention then MANY of the horses that are dumped out in feilds day in and out.

[Nancy!]

Ozone:

Not all show horses live in stalls. My eventers live out in pasture and in summer have fly sheets to protect them from bugs. My husband's working cowhorse also lives out during the winter and is only stalled at night during the summer. Our horses have done quite well in their various disciplines.

We fortunately live in an area with lots of space and the only horses that get stalled are the mares and foals. Mares start to come into the barn a month prior to foaling for the night. We do that until the foals are weaned and then the foals end up spending the night stalled and out during the day. After a month of being weaned, we kick them out. :lol: Then they live out 24/7, 365, including rain and snow.

I think turnout is very important and unfortuately we really modify what is natural to horses. Our horses are all used to stalls when they go to a show but at home, I think they need the chance to run, roll and get dirty.
And yes, I ride year round - even in the snow.

Nancy!

[coloredhorse]

Are your horses all in herd turn out 365 24/7 ???? You must have backyard horses & horses that you do not ride consistantly?

Because, I cannot see a show horse, or a consistant work horse turned out 365 24/7 .... turned out in the heat of summer with bugs all over them, stomping their feet, biting their sides. Or in Winter in -10 degrees with their Rambo Duo on but one unhappy horse standing in the middle of the covered pasture wishing some one would take him in from the wind.

...Quality show horses never get turned out but get more riding and attention then MANY of the horses that are dumped out in feilds day in and out.

Waaalllll ... my horses are "backyard" horses in that they are in my backyard on my charming little farmlet. They are also show horses, rather successful ones. The appraisals I have on them, even on the 20yo who is retired from active show duty, are quite respectable enough for all but the snootiest of snooty-asses. They certainly would qualify as "quality" horses. They are all in regular work and compete (even the 20yo takes lesson kids to schooling shows). They are glossy and muscled and don't look out of place in even the best of company. The definitely get plenty of riding and attention ... daily grooming, several-times-per-week riding, weekly massages, appropriate trimming/shoeing for each, custom-fit saddles, the best quality feed and hay I can afford, etc., etc., etc.

Except for the rarest of circumstances, they are never locked in their stalls. They have free access to their stalls and/or a run-in shed, but they are out 24/7. They have the shelter/stalls to escape bugs or rain when they want, but that is entirely at their choice. Winter cold is not a big deal here in the SE, but even when I lived in a more northerly area with a "real" winter, I aimed for 24/7 turnout as much as possible (limited primarily by the fact that I leased property for my horses and many owners forbade much turnout to preserve pasture during the nasty winter months).

Am I alone? Nope! My old trainer and her mentor in VA have many high-quality, high-dollar, high-performance horses ... kept in 24/7 turnout and playing with the big boys. Down here? Another FEI rider/trainer does quite well in the showring with her "backyardigans" who live out year-round. If I started dropping names from the pedigrees of some of my horses and all owned, trained or otherwise managed by any of these trainers, most people in the sporthorse world would be impressed.

Now, that's not to say that there is any problem with less than 24/7 turnout. When I was not able to provide this level of care, all but one or two of the horses I had did fine with less turnout. I am lucky to be able to afford to have a small farm with enough room to keep a few horses on full-time turnout. There are areas of the country where this is not possible, and people manage that quite well.

But just as it would be incorrect -- and just plain silly -- for me to put on my judgey pants and look down my nose at people who "jail their horses and only let them out to work," it's equally ridiculous to proclaim that those who prefer and are able to provide 24/7/365 turnout "must have backyard horses & horses that you do not ride consistantly."

[Penthilisea]

My understanding of physiology is admitadly limited, but what I recall is that longer, low impact exercise (such as grazing and moving around) is better for the long term arthritic prognosis then shorter more intense workouts IF given the choice between the two. It might be worth the time to try and find a very submissive horse friend for your mare to learn to buddy up with. I reccomend a pony mare, barefoot. My friend bought a shetland mare for this purpose (who ended up being quite the fancy flashy pony who does lessons for the wee ones now...) because her new warmblood yearling needed a turnout buddy who would be safe. Turnout was important to her, but so was safety. Obviously we don't all have these opportunities, however, via networking you may find someone with a retired babysitter type you could work with. Heck TBfriends probably knows 20 you could meet tomorrow!
Additionally, with arthritic changes at 4, I would be seriously rethinking the mares life plan. Thats not insignficant evidence that not only is her current management system not working, there may be other issues afoot (such as inherited or acquired degenerative stuff).

[AlterTurnout]

Thanks for all of the good wishes and the interesting discussion.

My poor girl is very sore and very beat up but we got to spend some quality time with the vet this morning and prognosis is that she shall live, but it will take a few weeks before she's back to her normal self.

I have to agree with the fact that her management needs to change - she needs more turnout and I will find it for her. I have started visiting farms and it's just as fun as saddle and or horse shopping (NOT FUN AT ALL!!!)

As a result of all of this I have now been offered individual use of the large paddock her "incident" took place in. The paddock is a stallion paddock so she while she can see other horses she can't touch noses. On one hand this is a far bigger paddock with 24/7 TO that I won't find anywhere else in my area but on the other hand she will miss having an over the fence buddy. Decisions, decisions...

[Bogie]

I'm glad your mare is improving.

I hope you find a situation that suits her needs. Horses do well in all sorts of situations and all the horses being talked about on this thread seem to have owners that do their best to make them comfortable. They are all pretty lucky.

As for the no show horses live outside 24/7, I would have to offer a different opinion. I know several upper level dressage horses that live out 24/7 with access to shelter and seem to thrive and also several top level eventers. They live in herd situations but mostly in very large fields (I think many of the problems with herds lie in the fact that pastures are too small).

My own horses (foxhunters, not show horses, but still ridden almost daily, massaged and with custom fitted saddles) choose to be out in almost all weather. The first winter they were out I would try to bribe them to come into their stalls by leaving their hay inside. Invariably, I'd find them out in the snow and sleet with ice and snow on their Rambos. In the summer, they stand inside to escape the heat and bugs, but with their stalls open.

[asterix]

OP, that sounds like a really good interim solution. Obviously getting beat up is NOT workable, but in the long run her early arthritic changes will be seriously exacerbated by lack of proper turnout.

Wish you luck!

In looking for turnout situations, I agree with Bogie that the size of the field is key. If it's too small for the group (no matter how small the group!), you will inevitably have issues.

There is no perfectly safe turnout situation -- my guys live out on 70 well-managed acres with a herd of 20+ (plenty of room) and are totally AOK for the vast majority of time...but my big dominant gelding is currently nursing a big hematoma on his butt (and has probably ruined his fall season due to it-- yes, another person who competes pretty seriously, rides 6 days a week, year round, with full turnout) because a new mare in the herd shook things up but good.

But they can get cast in a stall, etc etc.

We just have to do the best we can. It would be helpful to talk to someone who has real expertise with managing groups, introducing new horses, and socializing the unsocial horse - this may be your mare's problem as it does seem that she is getting unduly beat up!