Attitude

[fivehorses]

After reading the various opinions on the "Strangers riding my horse thread' and having a few incidents happen lately, I wanted to get input from others on this.

I have always enjoyed observing animal and human behavior.

Regardless of whether its human or animal, attitude and non verbal language speak volumes.

Have you ever noticed a person or an animal who just can take command and assert their alpha postion with very little noticable behavior?

This morning my senior alpha gelding, who was removed from his herd(his choice) a year ago to babysit my colt, decided to walk through a gate I had left temporarily open and rejoin his old herd. As it goes, the dynamics of that herd has changed, and a new draft gelding is senior/alpha horse.

I freaked, since he is older, and his old herd is all drafts, and the one who replaced him as leader just the other day double barraled my OTTB, when my helper left a gate open. Obviously, no love lost between them and this has happened before when they were first introduced.

So, I thought, ok, this is going to be bad, since the younger draft is going to confront my old guy. Nope, old guy walked up to the herd, like as if it was normal routine, ate some hay, moved the senior young horse off, which shocked me, and all was quite peaceful. I was stunned to see my young draft who is now leader of the herd, move off as quickly as he did. Of course, he was raised in this herd with my old guy, but still, he likes being top horse now and I was surprised how easily he gave it up.

Which brings me back to attitude. Basically, my old guy still has it, and lets the other punks know, I am still boss, even if I have been gone a year.

Any other herd dynamic observations out there?

[Dramapony_misty]

We have a herd of 6 that we verbalize in 2 groups: The "Hometown Crew" consists of our old 33 y/o gelding, a 27 y/o qh mare, and my 12 y/o Quarter pony mare which were the originals on the farm; and "the Boys" which are 3 full appy brothers (geldings) that we brought back from Wyoming state a few years ago. The boys are 11-9 y/o. Of course the old gelding was the alpha in the Hometown Crew and the oldest Appy was the alpha of The Boys.

The Boys are now the top tier of the herd, but even the oldest Appy tolerates the old gelding. Poor girls are just pushed around.

The dynamics of the 3 Appy boys are funny as the 11y/o has quiet authority. All it takes is a "look" or an ear flick and nobody challenges him. The 10 y/o sometimes gets put out by the reprimand and will go after the 9 y/o.

The 9 y/o is the most agressive of them all toward the underling horses. He will herd the mares around and charge them like a teenage boy trying to prove his machismo. But when Momma (me :D) yells at him to quit it, he turns into a little "I sorry. *pouty lip*) type of boy. It's hysterical.

[katarine]

There is no quick and dirty replacement for the things you can learn watching 6 horses negotiate 5 hay piles.

[Chief2]

Due to the generosity of our BO, I am getting to care for a horse they now own, and enjoying watching the attitude shift take place now that the previous owners have receded into the background. Previously, they were always setting the horse up for an argument so they could grandstand when anyone was around.. Yelling at it, lecturing it, whacking it, complaining about it...all for public consumption, which became annoying.

Now that the barn has taken over the horse and he receives quiet handling every day, the real horse is stepping forward. Stands at the gate waiting for you to put on his halter and lead before proceeding into the barn, stands quietly on one tie or on two and even ground ties if you ask for it, loves being groomed, closes his eyes when you ask him to so you can apply fly ointment, picks up his feet for cleaning before you even get there, moves his hips over if you quietly ask him to, and ditto for his shoulder. Just a real gentleman of a guy and a nice quiet ride. The beginners absolutely adore him, and the people who bought into the old propaganda about him before are revising their estimates of him, and falling in love as well! I, for one, am having a great time watching the transformation and being his auntie! :D

[Tornado Run Farm]

Oh, definitely - the herd dynamics and pecking order changes whenever the members of the group change. I have a mare who is alpha when she's with my young and old mare group. But as soon as I bring HER mother back in, this mare moves to LAST in the pecking order - not 2nd in command, but last.

[Amchara]

I watched a mare who was boss over three or four horses get moved back into her mother and another older mare she had known since birth. We watched the two old ladies chase the mare with minimal effort around until she was thoroughly humble and respectful :lol:.

The mare had remained with in close contact with the two old ladies. It's not like she was thrown in with two old crotchety seniors she hadn't seen in years.

[2DogsFarm]

I've only had 3 horses at any one time and right now I'm back to 2.
But my oldest has been with me for 20 years and I've watched him interact with many different herds.

He seems to be one of those Little Man (he's just 16h) Syndrome guys.
Gelded at 2yo when he failed his racetrack speed test, he still seems to think he has a pair.
And they clang when he walks.

First herd he ran with was 5 geldings who basically let him run the show. He'd say "Move" and they'd all amble to wherever he decreed, then continue grazing while he stood guard.

Next place had an established group of 4 whose leader was on stall rest. Before he could rejoin them, Vern & my DH's gelding joined the group and Vern took over as Head Hoss.
Until Boss #1 returned.
That evening Vern came in with a butt full of bite marks and a changed attitude.
#2 spot did him fine for the rest of our time there.

Next was turnout with DH's horse only.
They were fine until I bought a young (3-1/2yo) OTTB with a partner.
After letting the three of them get acquainted over the fence we decided to try adding the youngster to the group.
Vern let us know ASAP that was not going to work - he came flying at the baby, neck snaking, teeth bared and I have to believe if I hadn't been standing there holding baby's lead, he'd not have veered away at the last second.
Protecting his "herd" of one, Vern made his point.

Place after that had an 8ac pasture for geldings and about a dozen boys went out from 8A until 5P. Vern didn't seem to have any special friends or any need to rule that group. He was just one of the bunch, somewhere in the middle of the hierarchy.

Now I have him and my 15yo TWH - Cash - at home. This is year #5.
Cash was a breeding stallion until he was 8 and is 17h+, but he had no problem letting Vern take the #1 spot.

When I feed they each come into a free-access stall from pasture.
And after snarfing down his grain, Vern will inevitably play Musical Stalls and make Cash switch places for the "better" hay.
I have yet to see so much as a pinned ear or ugly face from Cash to Vern.
He just lets the Old Man have his way.

Whenever I have someone over, Cash is always first to the fence to beg for treats or a scritch, but in the background Vern watches then makes his own move.
Gotta send the Advance Guard before the King appears.

[danceronice]

LOLs, not animal, but person--at the dance studio I work for, there are two owners, a manager, and the teachers. There is NEVER any question who is the ultimate boss (one of the owners.) He's friendly (unless you really piss him off), he's a great guy, generous to a fault, and he's absolutely the dominant male in the 'troupe'. I've even told all three of them, if I get conflicting orders, he's the one I'm obeying because I'll get in the least amount of trouble. He doesn't go in for macho posturing or being a jerk, he just IS the alpha in the group. Like any alpha, he doesn't have to flaunt it.

My horse WANTED to be an alpha....worked okay with other geldings, but put him in with a mare and he tucked his tail and was all "yes dear."

[harveyhorses]

We had a little AQHA mare 14.1 tops. She ran the world. Our horses used to have free access to their stalls 24-7. We came home one afternoon to find her standing outside one of the stalls, looking really pleased with herself, she had herded all 6 others into one stall and had held them there for who knows how long, we had been gone most of the day. Three of them were her sons, our OTTB one 10.2 sheltland and a two year old. They were SO happy to see us. She got put in with one other horse after that. She never charged or bit, it was a look I have never been able to master.

[soccermom711]

Depending on who is turned out together at any one time, it varies. One broodmare takes nothing from anyone. A mustang that used to be boarded at our barn would, whenever given the opportunity (usually by accident), run any other horse into the ground. It was horrifying to watch. One day, a clueless boarder lets him loose by our OTTB broodmare who was in foal. Talk about scary. She calmly turned her butt to him as he charged - gave him a look - and he moped away like a bad little boy and stayed his distance. This same broodmare will allow one of our geldings to be the pretend leader whenever our herd is out together. It's cute. She humors him and he has a crush on her.

There is one thing I find truly mystifying, and I wonder if anyone else has ever experienced the same thing. Our horses - the ones we own - all get along and can be turned out together. Occasionally, we can mix in another horse here or there, but not on a long term basis - they end up being a problem with bad habits. We have multiple other boarders, with various horses, and even those horses cannot be put together. We have to pick and choose very carefully who can go together and then after awhile re-think it, because someone's being a problem. With our horses, it never happens. It's as if they know they belong together and are a family of sorts. Am I crazy? Or are we just lucky? lol.

[CDE Driver]

Oh! This is so interesting!

I could just hang out and watch my herd for hours, their interactions are so fascinating.

The 24 year old is the boss of the gelding field. There are eight of them. After a 6 year old had been with them for a while he decided to challenge the old guy. An all out assault was more like it! Two of the other geldings that are really get along guys went after him with a vengeance and actually knocked him down. I don't know if they were actually protecting the old guy or what but it was pretty amazing to watch. There has been no further altercations and the old guy is still the boss.

I could go on and on with stories of their interactions and relationships! :)

[see u at x]

When turned out with other horses, the most dangerous horse on the farm where I board at is the 28" miniature horse. If turned out with the "big" horses, it is guaranteed that several of them will come in limping with leg injures. He's cute, but he's lethal and all attitude:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs026.snc1/3138_1039402317304_1592935684_30113036_927439_n.jp g

Needless to say, he gets semi-private turnout with a pony on the farm who is more his size.

[pintopiaffe]

There is no quick and dirty replacement for the things you can learn watching 6 horses negotiate 5 hay piles.

:lol: SO true.

Now, how it relates? Specifically to those of us who watch and *learn?*

I was the first woman ever hired by my PD. When Chief went before selectboard, one old timer asked "but.. but... what if she has to deal with a big ol' 250lb drunk at 2AM."

My chief said to me before telling me his reply, "I hope this doesn't offend you... but I told them, 'you'd just have to meet her. She has a horse farm. She handles stallions. She won't have a problem.' "

:lol:

And I am NOT aggressive at all. If anything, I always, always go in with respect and try to de-escalate. Can/should sometimes be *more* proactive/agressive...

It still cracks me up.

[mkevent]

OK-not a horse interaction story but a dog one.

I have three corgis. One(Kismet) is a rescue-former breeding bitch from a puppy mill. Very non aggressive and gets along well with cats and dogs but still leary of people. The other two are brother and sister from different litters. Brother(Austin) was older but not quite full grown when we got his sister(Skye) as a pup. I guess because Austin was older when Skye came into the picture he took over Alpha dog spot.

Here's where it gets interesting. It actually takes all three of them to play catch. First, I throw the ball. Austin (being alpha) has to exert his authority and get the ball. He also has to exert his authority by not bringing it all the way back to me but to deposit it a good 10-15 feet away from me and stand there barking at me to come pick up the ball and throw it.

Knowing better than to be a handmaiden to my dog, I refuse to obey his commands. Skye,helping the process by howling like a hound dog while Austin is barking at me,finally gets exasperated by watching the battle of the wills. She waits until Austin is preoccupied and then sneaks up and grabs the ball to place it at my feet. Well, she doesn't get quite close enough, either, so I have to point to the spot at my feet where I want the ball and then Skye rolls it the rest of the way with her nose. Austin is still barking in the background because, well, he's Austin.

Kismet helps by bouncing up and down and barking in the lowest bellow I've ever heard a corgi make. She doesn't quite have the herding instinct because she spent her life cooped in a cage but she's starting to catch on.

Every once in a while, Skye gets pi$$ed at Austin for being a bully and not sharing the catch and herds him while he's chasing the ball and nips him in the hindquarters. Austin, who is actually a sissy but acts like a bully, then proceeds to run to me to have his injured hindquarters rubbed. This continues until either my arm gets tired or I think the neighbors will file an excessive noise complaint.(just kidding-my neighbors are nice)

It's no wonder I never get anything accomplished during the day...

[fivehorses]

what is the personality of your alpha horse like?

My mare is fairly aloof, but likes to have as many horses in her herd as possible.

My senior gelding is really a loner. No friends, etc, until the colt came around. Now he is so darn protective of him, I cannot turn him out with anyone else, otherwise he attacks everyone else. That is why this morning it was so odd. He just joined him with his old herd in a very calm way. If the colt was there, it would have been chaos.

I find it extremely interesting how with no outwardly apparent body language, the other horses defer, or as someone said, its like parting the red sea and move off out of their way.

I suppose we humans do the same thing, defer to those with more power.

that is what intrigues me, how and what is the personality of the alpha/leader horses...

[Flying Hill]

I have two mares who are half-sisters. Their mothers were best buddies and their fillies have lived together since they were babies (one is a year older). They always got along great and would happily share a feed pan or hay pile, but the older one was the boss...until the day they went on a trail ride together. The younger one is naturally very brave, and from her first trail rides liked to be in front and would march by things that more experienced horses were spooking at. The older one is fairly brave, but likes to snort at unfamiliar things and occasionally stop and look at them. Well, after that one ride where younger sister realized that she was braver than older sister, younger sister became very much the boss! No more waiting patiently while older sister gets her food; that night she ran her out of her feeding spot and wouldn't let her near, and that's been the pecking order ever since.

[lisae]

My alpha is a Morgan/Perch cross who came to me with headshy problems. She's mostly over it but still doesn't care to have her head handled. She also needs a flymask as the faceflies give her puffy eyes.

I enjoy watching the behavior of the two Halfinger underlings when I stand by the gate of the pasture waiting for Pearl to volunteer for her flymask. No fresh greens until the mask is on! If she stalls, the two sibling Haffies will try to pin her in and make her stand, but without pushing it too far and getting her annoyed. :winkgrin:

[chai]

Herd behavior and dynamics are so interesting. Things can get ugly, though, when the herd leader position becomes available or there is a serious challenge. The quietest times on our farm were when we had an extremely intelligent natural leader in our herd, a dear old QH/Saddlebred X from out west who ran the herd with such quiet dignity, all the horses were happy. He was the kind of leader humans should aspire to: benevolent, crystal clear in his convictions and strong but fair. I miss that old boy.

[fivehorses]

I totally agree, when a leader is present, the herd established, there are very few squabbles.

I have a gelding, an OTTB, who every other gelding on this farm HATES. All the mares love him. Sometimes, when I am bringing horses in or out, if he goes near another gelding not in his herd(I have 3 herds), they will try and strike him thru the fence or make that squeal.

Do the other geldings know he may be attractive to the other mares? Each herd has a mare in it.

I find it interesting how much they all hate him. He appears normal in every other way. They can switch around with the other geldings joining their herd, and are ok with it. But this ladies man, no way, they want him gone.

[chism]

Our gelding is one of those. He was a stallion until we gelded him at 10. He doesn't even have to pin his ears, but he can part the herd like Moses at the Red Sea to get to the Human-with-treats in the pasture.

I don't know that I've ever seen him land a kick or bite on anyone. But the entire herd respects his lead.

I have one like this. I call him "the prince". In seven years of owning him, I have never seen him bite or kick. At the very worst with a new horse, he'll pin his ears and make faces but he almost never needs to. They all know he's the boss and defer to him accordingly. He just has this aura of confidence about him, he's truly a benevolent leader. Then there's the punk in the other group that throws his weight around like the school bully stealing other kids' lunch money. He doesn't need to bite or kick, but he seems to like to. :( I fixed him...gave him a mare for a buddy. lol

[witherbee]

Nice post Chai.

We change things around in our herd quite a bit. We have mostly TBs (broodmares and young stock), and then have my Irish Draught gelding (Jeffrey), hubby's paint gelding (Leo) and a mini (Toodles, who is no longer in the herd due to founder issues).

My Irish Draught did something interesting when we added a 2 year old TB filly into the herd (she's on layoff from the track). We did what we normally do, which is to pull Jeffrey out of his herd and mathc him up with the new horse for a few days. We also let the other horses sniff the new horse when we bring them in for feed time (we hold the new horse on a lead outside each horse's stall and let them touch noses and sniff eachother). WHen we turned the new filly and Jeffrey back out with the main herd, the new filly was trying to kick EVERYONE. When she tried to kick one of the broodmares (JLo, the one with the big butt lol), Jeffrey got bewteen them and took the double barrelled kick right on his side. Well, Jeffrey NEVER kicks, but he chased that filly down and kicked her right back (pulled his punch so he didn't injure her, just schooled her). She has not kicked since.

A good herd leader is worth his weight in gold. Jeffrey is kind of invisible with his command (the occasional pinned ears), but hubby's paint would always lay the smack down as soon as we turned everyone back out after feed - he did it once a day just to let everyone know that no challenges would be allowed. He's away on a free lease, but is another good babysitter - he can be tougher than Jeffrey though, so cannot be turned out in too small an area with another horse because he gets edgy and bites them. He's a bit too much of an intimidator.

The mini used to do so well in the herd. We were nervous to turn him out with them, but he got out himself and put himself in with the herd, so we let him stay. As we introduced different horse over the years, he'd always be the first to try to sniff them, and when the chase was on he looked like Pepe Le Pew with that poor skunk/cat lol! The TBs would be flying all over the big field and he'd try to keep up and then you'd see him cut through the middle to catch up - it was hilarious!

[PaulaK]

We have a mixed turnout where I board. #1 is an older App gelding and #2 is an older App mare (best buds too). During the heat of the day you will usually find the whole herd (six horses) snoozing in the shade where there seems to be a constant breeze. Recently a mare came back after training and although she has been in this herd since a weanling the dynamics did change (actually still changing). #2 horse gave returned mare a dirty look asking her to move and instead the mare threatened right back. #1 who was on opposite side of #2 casually reached around and gave returned mare a pretty good bite on her rump. Mare spent the rest of the afternoon banished from the herd. I could watch them for hours!