soaking hay not reliable?

[JB]

Don't shoot the messenger ;)

I'm just posting this to get a discussion going from those who have actually been involved in soaking studies (ie Katy :D) to find out what is potentially wrong with this article, or why it's potentially really right

http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wsclam.htm

[LMH]

Could soaking in cold vs hot water be a factor?

I wonder what the WSC was of each batch to begin?

I never thought soaking guaranteed under 10%-I just thought it reduced it by a certain amount...so the article makes sense.

You can't buy 30% NSC (WSC?) hay and expect it to get under 10% but may be able to get 17% hay under 10%.

So my understanding is the article is just saying what others have said all along.

Get low NSC hay and soak it to get it lower...but soaking won't make a candy bar a piece of broccoli

[matryoshka]

Yep, my understanding is that soaking drops the sugar content by a percentage, so if it is much above 10% NSC to start with, you aren't going to get it down to that. Can't remember what percentage, though. Ugh.

[sid]

I've found soaking not to reliable when Boleem was having such a hard time with metabolic laminitis...a 2 year saga that we couldn't get under control.

Dropped the soaked hay and started feeding him Lucerne's Hi-Fi Gold along with Wellsolve L/S and within days had a complete turnaround. Now that's been extremely reliable and he's been founder-free for a year and a half now.

[pricestory]

I don't doubt their science but it would have helped to have a graph with the original data, and the data after each period of soaking. It isn't very helpful to say that soaking won't necessarily get it to below 10% without the rest of the information.

[angie j]

I don't doubt their science but it would have helped to have a graph with the original data, and the data after each period of soaking. It isn't very helpful to say that soaking won't necessarily get it to below 10% without the rest of the information.

IT was a little vague to me...
We don't know what the levels of each hay was before soaking or after :(

[Ghazzu]

...but soaking won't make a candy bar a piece of broccoli

Curses! Foiled again!

[Ghazzu]

I don't doubt their science but it would have helped to have a graph with the original data, and the data after each period of soaking. It isn't very helpful to say that soaking won't necessarily get it to below 10% without the rest of the information.

I suspect that the original paper has much more detail.
This was more of a summary of what was in the paper.

[Katy Watts]

Abstract is at JEV 29(5) page 383. I saw it presented at Eq Sci Soc this May. They say nearly everyone soaks hay in the UK to prevent inhalation of mold spores. It’s a real moldy place. Only necessary to wet hay down, so when you say ‘soaked hay’ that’s what they mean, that’s what you get. So they did the study under ‘usual practices’ which of course is not enough water to create a diffusion gradient necessary to pull sugar out. Some of the hays had 22-23% dm WSC. Many were ryegrass and timothy that have long chain fructan and would be less soluble than other species used in the US. I have no idea why they didn’t just say ‘use more water’. They also said that it’s often difficult to get enough water in remote barns, and then said that disposing of the water “which is essentially sewage” is difficult too. Appears they don’t like the concept at all. Said it’s better for find appropriate hay that doesn’t need soaking or “develop alternative practical methodologies that are more effective”. This teams research is funded by a feed company that sells bagged feed and forage. That might have something to do with their defeatist attitude. I hated soaking too, but some people would rather soak PROPERLY with lots of water than keep testing hay.
I thought the bottom line was more about ‘stuff they do in the UK might not apply here in the US’.
Katy

[foggybok]

Curses! Foiled again!

darn! I suppose that means soaking my oreos in milk doesn't make them healthy either?

[foggybok]

Abstract is at JEV 29(5) page 383. I saw it presented at Eq Sci Soc this May. They say nearly everyone soaks hay in the UK to prevent inhalation of mold spores. It’s a real moldy place. Only necessary to wet hay down, so when you say ‘soaked hay’ that’s what they mean, that’s what you get. So they did the study under ‘usual practices’ which of course is not enough water to create a diffusion gradient necessary to pull sugar out. Some of the hays had 22-23% dm WSC. Many were ryegrass and timothy that have long chain fructan and would be less soluble than other species used in the US. I have no idea why they didn’t just say ‘use more water’. They also said that it’s often difficult to get enough water in remote barns, and then said that disposing of the water “which is essentially sewage” is difficult too. Appears they don’t like the concept at all. Said it’s better for find appropriate hay that doesn’t need soaking or “develop alternative practical methodologies that are more effective”. This teams research is funded by a feed company that sells bagged feed and forage. That might have something to do with their defeatist attitude. I hated soaking too, but some people would rather soak PROPERLY with lots of water than keep testing hay.
I thought the bottom line was more about ‘stuff they do in the UK might not apply here in the US’.
Katy

I think there are points to both... I think there is clear evidence that proper soaking can reduce NSC, but it's just common sense that starting with very high NSC levels means it will be more difficult to get it down to levels needed for at risk horses (and I bet most people don't do a proper soak, because it is a pain in the neck to do......). So I can see the argument where it would be better just to know what you are starting with and feed the appropriate food.

I have also always wondered about the loss of other water soluble nutrients.....didn't seem like a good thing, but perhaps the better of two evils.....
I never understood paying for nutrients, then washing them away. Seems like it would make more sense just to buy the right feed to begin with.... But I hear people have difficulty finding low NSC forage (I need to test some of the local hay around here, I'd bet it is low NSC, but also probably low everything else as welll.......) so in that situation, it makes sense to soak.

[Katy Watts]

(I need to test some of the local hay around here, I'd bet it is low NSC,

If you are in the PNW, it's more likely to be higher than US national average for NSC. I helped LMF Feeds (based in WA) convince the OR feed regulators to allow us to guarantee NSC on our low carb feeds. To convince them of the necessity, we got Dairy One to pull out hay data from OR, WA and CA. It averages +2% of the overall lab database. East of the mtns, it's sunny, cool, dry summers. That's why the grass seed industry is all centered there. Good for making grass seed, AND high sugar hay. West of the mtns, probably much lower due to the cloudy weather. But I hear it's sunny and hot this year. Might make for some higher sugar hay there, too.
If anyone wants a cool idea for a MS, get Dairy One to let you play statistics with their database. Huge amount of useful info there just laying around doing nothing.

[SaddleFitterVA]

For real soaking, I've been soaking for 1-2 hours, is that adequate? It seems to pull out a very sweet-tea smelling and colored water at the end of the time.

[foggybok]

If you are in the PNW, it's more likely to be higher than US national average for NSC. I helped LMF Feeds (based in WA) convince the OR feed regulators to allow us to guarantee NSC on our low carb feeds. To convince them of the necessity, we got Dairy One to pull out hay data from OR, WA and CA. It averages +2% of the overall lab database. East of the mtns, it's sunny, cool, dry summers. That's why the grass seed industry is all centered there. Good for making grass seed, AND high sugar hay. West of the mtns, probably much lower due to the cloudy weather. But I hear it's sunny and hot this year. Might make for some higher sugar hay there, too.
If anyone wants a cool idea for a MS, get Dairy One to let you play statistics with their database. Huge amount of useful info there just laying around doing nothing.

I'm sure you are correct about the east of the Mts stuff. I'm out on the Olympic peninsula and generally it is cool and cloudy with little temp change from day to night.... I was talking about our local hay. I have a batch from last year that I'm pretty sure is about as low as you can get given the growing and harvesting conditions at the time and the response to feeding it....I don't have any from this year of that variety though. But I'm sure you are right, conditions are not normal this year. Hot and dry! I'm sure any hay I get this year will be different....

I had some other local hay last year that I think was much higher, because it seemed to set off my old COPD horse....none of the other horses reacted, but he got sore when fed that hay and better when fed the other local stuff or alfalfa. That batch was grown by a guy that irrigates and fertilizes, something many of the local growers do not do.... Growing hay out here is tricky because it's often hard to get it cut at the right time, so mostly people have the "what you see is what you get, I'm not putting more effort in" type of hay..(it sells for 2-4.00 a bale if that gives you an idea....) Most horse people buy from the other side of the mountains (and thus probably have higher NSC hay...).


Would be fun to see the Dairy one database!

I did see the hay analysis for a bunch of the local hays side by side and they all seemed to fall exactly where I would have guessed (and there was quite a range), unfortunately NSC was not a part of that analysis.....

[flyracing]

Hi Katy,
Normally you are right about EVERYTHING so I will point out to that LMF is Idaho based (headquarted in the city of Weiser, in SE Idaho). LMF is our local feed and "balanced to our local hays" in SE Idaho. Now that LMF has grown they have distrubitors in WA and CA. Is that what you were refering to?