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Carol O
Aug. 3, 2009, 06:49 PM
Opinions please about bit preferences. Kimberwicke or pelham? Because....

EiRide
Aug. 3, 2009, 07:38 PM
Opinions please about bit preferences. Kimberwicke or pelham? Because....

Kimberwicke is kind of a bastardized bit that doesn't have any of the qualities of a good snaffle or a good pelham . . . it also tends to lift a head and enable bracing. If I needed brakes and could not handle the extra reins, I'd go to something like a slow twist snaffle first.

If you've the hands for it, I much prefer a pelham with both reins, not that silly connector thingie which makes it neither fish nor fowl. Then you can ride off the snaffle unless a little reminder is needed from the curb.

HunterRider992
Aug. 3, 2009, 07:39 PM
Well pelham, duh. Kimberwicks are considered unconventional.

mroades
Aug. 3, 2009, 07:42 PM
whichever one the horse goes better in

Sebastian
Aug. 3, 2009, 07:46 PM
whichever one the horse goes better in

Ditto.
Seb ;)

Carol O
Aug. 3, 2009, 08:05 PM
Well pelham, duh. Kimberwicks are considered unconventional.

I agree. I hate kimberwickes. They are very, very popular here though. I love the "duh" part in your response...

I tried a pelham on a friends horse recently (the mare loved it), and all the advice givers have been repeating "why don't you put her in a kimberwick?" The next time I hear the "K" work I will scream!

ExJumper
Aug. 3, 2009, 08:20 PM
If you're going to set hoof in a show ring, pelham, please!

MintHillFarm
Aug. 3, 2009, 08:45 PM
Pelham, no contest. I have never been a kimberwick fan.

If you can't manage the 2 reins, then ask your trainer for other bit suggestions.

dghunter
Aug. 3, 2009, 08:54 PM
Pelham definitely but please, please no converter! I hate that!

crazypaintrider
Aug. 3, 2009, 09:01 PM
I like pelhams because you don't use the leverage/ curb unless you need to. Use two reins, it is something good to learn and have in your back pocket in case you need it at some point. Kimberwickes, there is no way NOT to use the curb/leverage.
I also used a slow twist to get a horse with a hard mouth to listen to what I was asking. She would just run through a regular snaffle and all I had around was a slow twist. She listened to my slight cues and we were able to go back to a regular snaffle, since she respected the bit.
I also have a personal hatred of kimberwickes because everyone here who has there western QH "going english" for IHSA puts on a stupid kimberwicke and warms up the horse like a western horse. So when an actual english rider tries to take up contact with the horse's mouth(even the slightest bit, or to half halt etc), the poor horse has a fit because it is used to being left alone, and bumped.

mypaintwattie
Aug. 3, 2009, 09:18 PM
Depends on the horse and the show circuit that you are doing. H/J rated shows then a pelham would be the bit of choice. Open or breed shows then you will see many more kimberwicks. Nothing wrong with either, it depends on what the horse is more comfortable in and what you are asking the horse to do.

MintHillFarm
Aug. 3, 2009, 11:47 PM
It is a very severe bit. While it may have a use in the hunt field, it doesn't in the show ring...
Port + leverage as the D portion is slotted in most versions + curb chain.
I think it makes a horse heavy and produces false flexion.

fourmares
Aug. 4, 2009, 01:51 AM
Pelham. Kimberwicks are icky and, as someone said don't have the good qualities of either a snaffle or a leverage bit.

forestergirl99
Aug. 4, 2009, 02:24 AM
Pelham for sure. You can control if you use leverage or just snaffle, and you can also control how much or how little leverage. Plus it looks much more classy in the show ring. :cool:

kimball1
Aug. 4, 2009, 07:22 AM
Most hunter judges will not use you on the card in a kimberwicke, unless they absolutely have to, like more ribbons that horses, or some of the other horses had major, major problems (bucking, rearing, stopping etc)

mroades
Aug. 4, 2009, 08:41 AM
as a judge. i do not care which...IF the horse goes well in it. I showed a childrens hunter for a year in a kimberwicke and only had one judge not use him for the bit. He liked, he went best in it, so we beat other horses that disnt perform as well.
I would rather see a happy under control horse in a kimberwicke than a boring down runaway in a pelham.....and yes leave the converter reins at home unless you are in the very beginner divisions.

JWB
Aug. 4, 2009, 10:16 AM
A straight kimberwicke is like riding with a block of wood in the horses mouth. I used a jointed kimberwicke for fox hunting on my tank appy when I was a teen but for showing, always a broken pelham with two sets of reins. You can use the snaffle piece when you need it, but the curb is there if you need it too.

Kimberwickes seem to be very popular as a school horse or kid's bit.

Madeline
Aug. 4, 2009, 11:51 AM
A straight kimberwicke is like riding with a block of wood in the horses mouth. I used a jointed kimberwicke for fox hunting on my tank appy when I was a teen but for showing, always a broken pelham with two sets of reins. You can use the snaffle piece when you need it, but the curb is there if you need it too.

Kimberwickes seem to be very popular as a school horse or kid's bit.

TaKe a minute to think through the physics of a broken curb ( Pelham or kimberwick). If you want to give an unclear and inconsistent message to your horse, they are the tool of choice. If you want to give both of you a good chance of clear two-way communication, well, give those jointed curbs a pass, please.

Just because they are currently popular doesn't mean they are any good.

findeight
Aug. 4, 2009, 01:28 PM
Most KWs are solid mouth with a low port though, not a broken mouth. Never seen a broken mouth KW but they may be out there.

The KW seems most effective on a Western breed show type that also goes Western in a curb and is not considered unconventional at all in those venues. Actually makes some sense for them, not that bad a choice for that horse in that situation.

It is in USEF rated, they are uncoventional and others are far better choices.

Also, various regions of the USA, like out west, may view the KW as more conventional because of the popularity of the breed shows and many crossovers from them.

I make no secret it's not my choice unless used as designed-with a curb strap and two reins and then why not a more traditional pelham?

But I can't tell the OP what to choose as bottom line is if that's what he goes best in, go with it. Likely only hurt you in a tie.

rabicon
Aug. 4, 2009, 03:59 PM
*flamesuit on*I don't think a kimberwicke is a severe bit by no means :o They can be used nicely with the right hands just like a pelham. If someone stays on the curb with the pelham than thats not the easiest either. I don't know what the big to do is about KWs now. Its just funny how things go out of style and then they are horrible because they are out of style. I remember when KWs were in style. It really bothers me that people think a KW is soooo bad when really there are so many more bits out there that are bad. I'm guessing that all reiners are horrible because they use reining bits, that BTW are worse than KWs in the wrong hands. Its all in the way you use it and if you can't keep a steady hand than its not the bit for you. If going in the hunter ring and you don't want to be looked at funny don't use a KW but I've never known a judge that wouldn't place a nice going hunter with a KW.

Madeline
Aug. 4, 2009, 05:02 PM
*flamesuit on*I don't think a kimberwicke is a severe bit by no means :o They can be used nicely with the right hands just like a pelham. ....Its just funny how things go out of style and then they are horrible because they are out of style. I remember when KWs were in style. .

Second things first: KW's were never in style in the AHSA/USEF hunter ring.

The objection to KW's is that they are a kind of "mutt" bit. They are a curb, but you can't get away from the curb action. There are applications where they may well be the "best possible bit" for the task. I hunted a pony for a few seasons in a KW. I was tiny, he was competent. With a KW I had a small say in where we went. One rein really helps when you are 6. Lots of actual ( rather than show) hunters go in KW's. For the same reason that balanced pelhams are often seen. Lots of excitement, other horses around, varying terrain and footing, heavy gloves, carrying a hound whip, etc.

In the hunter ring, not so much. Level surface, small contained area, no other horses in with you to cause excitement, no heavy gloves. A rider who is showing at any level should be able to cope with either some variety of snaffle or a regular pelham to show. Nevertheless, in front of a competent judge, a good trip in a KW should beat a less good trip in a snaffle. ( Besides, you never really know what lurks between those cheekpieces...)

Fashion has little to do with it. Fashion is "I HAVE to have a GPA." Juniors in shadbellies. Black field boots. Fluffy girth covers. Half pads. 463 braids to make your horse's neck look longer ( Who are they kidding?) Dee bits -straight from the racetrack. In the bad old days you would NEVER see a hunter showing in a Dee.Loose rings, egg butts, pelhams, doubles. Full cheeks for ponies and 1st year greens. Running martingales only in formal classes.

Nope. KW's and show hunters was always about (mal) function, not fashion.

rabicon
Aug. 4, 2009, 05:21 PM
Maybe it was a fad here in Ga only :confused: I couldn't go to a hunter show, granted most were C rated (didn't see them much at all in the A AA shows) without seeing tons of them but now in the past 10 years you only see them on the ponies with the kiddies mostly. Now I do still see them alot with the kiddies. Maybe its different in different parts :confused:IDK but I still stand by that I don't think they are that severe of a bit. No yes if you are snatching your horse down into a frame with it constantly then it can be but just ridden light contact on the flat is not the end of the world to me. Again this is just my opinion and like they say opinion are like, well you know :winkgrin:

snarkey
Aug. 4, 2009, 06:21 PM
TaKe a minute to think through the physics of a broken curb ( Pelham or kimberwick). If you want to give an unclear and inconsistent message to your horse, they are the tool of choice. If you want to give both of you a good chance of clear two-way communication, well, give those jointed curbs a pass, please.

Just because they are currently popular doesn't mean they are any good.

Stick to reporting and the hill top Maddy. Oh, have you been showing? Its in your back yard.

findeight
Aug. 4, 2009, 10:23 PM
whatever...

The only place I ever saw KWs used was down in Texas on breed show types that also carried a curb in Western classes.

I saw a few in California in breed shows but never on the old AHSA Open circuit. Saw, maybe, two of them around the shows I went to or barns I was with in New England.

Very rarely see them at the locals around here, once in awhile and not on a contender for ribbons. Never seen them at WEF or the KHP or Brownland but I am sure there may be a few.

It's just not a particularly good choice on 99% of them at many, many venues.

Carol O
Aug. 5, 2009, 08:23 AM
The mare that I put in the pelham had been in a KW with a former trainer. I saw the trainer at a show where she had seen the horse go. She mentioned the mare was strong in a snaffle, so she put her in the KW, but that "was as far as she was willing to go"; the implication being that the pelham is the severe bit. The KW is very popular here....

30 or 40 years ago when I was riding hunters the KW was frowned on. I see that things have not.

Blackberry Farm
Aug. 5, 2009, 08:55 AM
If you're staying home, use the bit that does the job. If you're showing, use a pelham- double reins- or a slow twist. The Rule Book gives the judge the authority to penalize unconventional bits. IMHO if you're showing, follow the rules. I wonder what the situation is- regarding OP. If your horse doesn't have breaks, a pelham (with the mouthpiece you'd LIKE to be in)would be a good choice. As previously stated, use the snaffle rein, then pelham, only when you need it. Work on communication, and work toward moving into a snaffle. Warning- it takes time and patience. Many people have neither.

findeight
Aug. 5, 2009, 09:07 AM
Many also ride what they have...that may not be suitable for their level. Especially in Novice classes, that can influence a judge.

Simply put a beginner of any age needs a broke horse at a horse show. A pelham or a KW would be chosen because the horse lacks brakes, won't listen or the rider lacks sufficient skill to manage the horse in a lesser bit. Unsuitable compared to others easily managed in milder bits. Most guidlines for these beginner classes clearly state "suitability to count" somewhere in the class description.

A pelham or KW are obvious from any distance leading one to reasonably speculate on why they would advertise it needs a bigger bit with a beginner rider. It makes less difference in more advanced company where it should be safe to assume the rider has better skills and a horse can be a little more of a challenge-may still prefer that snaffle in the hacks though.

That converter strap is frowned on by most judges because if the kid cannot handle two reins, that is an unsuitable horse for them. It is also not the way that bit was designed to work and deemed anything from unconventional to improper.