Sjef Janssen talks about the (near) future of dressage in Holland/Germany/USA and ...

[freestyle2music]

Sjef Janssen talks about the (near) future of dressage in Holland/Germany/USA and the Isabell Werth case :


http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=14

[edit]

[siegi b.]

Sjef always looks like he's had a terrible night!! :-) However, his recommendation for the US dressage team is spot on... "get the good horses to the right people!" I'm just afraid that this will not happen in my life time....

[egontoast]

Interesting . Thanks for posting it.

[Ajierene]

Sjef always looks like he's had a terrible night!! :-) However, his recommendation for the US dressage team is spot on... "get the good horses to the right people!" I'm just afraid that this will not happen in my life time....

That doesn't seem to be rocket science, though. Yeah, if the best horse in the country is with the worst rider, of course it won't be at the Olympics!

and don't forget "start working really really hard." "get a good coach."

Maybe people need the obvious, but it still seems just obvious to me.

[J-Lu]

Agreed, Aijerene.

It is pretty simple advice to a complex situation. However, I will go out on a limb and say that that I'm not personally concerned that America gets a gold medal in dressage in the near future. So what that Holland has a deep and wide dressage field at the moment. So what that Germany doesn't. It isn't static - horses and riders change constantly over time. Dressage isn't America's equine heritage.

It costs a bloody fortune to match the best dressage horses with the best riders and then campaign them at the top levels. Too much, these days. Breeders don't donate horses to the top riders - they usually charge a fortune for top prospects. Trainers vie to take a hefty commission. Top horses are owned by very wealthy people or syndicates. Top riders don't come down much on their skyhigh fees to take on younger horses with potential and are often primarily supported by wealthy sponsors and secondarily by wealthy clinic riders. International-bound young riders havesomeone with uber-deep pockets (parents or other connections) to support their elite habit. It all comes down to raising and spending LOTS of money to be successful and to interpersonal politics of elite dressage. Too much. The sport of dressage brings this upon itsself. I can think of better ways to spend a million or so dollars.

In short, Sjef's comments are right, but not very illuminating. And I'm fine with his statements.

[YankeeLawyer]

Top riders don't come down much on their skyhigh fees to take on younger horses with potential and are often primarily supported by wealthy sponsors and secondarily by wealthy clinic riders.

This is a big problem. I have one horse now that is really amazing, maybe one of the best I have ever owned. I actually have had some GP riders contact me asking if they can have the ride on her in a couple of years. But, a number of really good people, including some of the ones who I believe would be the *right* match for her, charge over 3K per month for boarding and training - and that is before they step foot on any van to any show. I have a farm and 7 horses, so it is really not realistic for me to be spending what would end up 4K or 5K per month just to keep *one* training and showing. So either one of these will be a bit more entrepeneurial (with me or other breeders with top youngsters) or they will continue riding second rate horses for people with more money than brains, in some cases.

Regarding breeders charging top dollar for their best mounts, they aren't left much choice, because theoretically their pricing should be commensurate with the quality, so it is the few stars that have to make up for all the others that went for slim or no profit (or losses, in many instances). That said, most I know will work with people to make the right match possible.

[Alagirl]

Sjef always looks like he's had a terrible night!! :-) However, his recommendation for the US dressage team is spot on... "get the good horses to the right people!" I'm just afraid that this will not happen in my life time....


It's a case of 'DUH'

However, since this is all a matter of private treaty, not much one can do about it. No telling how many really top horses are in somebody's back yard. because they were just lucky to come across them. Unlike Throroughbreds and Standard Breds, WBs' primary function is as riding horse, not necessarily as show horse.

And as for the top riders wanting a special horse under the saddle...they better pony up the money...or bring a sponsor....:lol:

[Sixbar]

This is a big problem. I have one horse now that is really amazing, maybe one of the best I have ever owned. I actually have had some GP riders contact me asking if they can have the ride on her in a couple of years. But, a number of really good people, including some of the ones who I believe would be the *right* match for her, charge over 3K per month for boarding and training - and that is before they step foot on any van to any show. I have a farm and 7 horses, so it is really not realistic for me to be spending what would end up 4K or 5K per month just to keep *one* training and showing. So either one of these will be a bit more entrepeneurial (with me or other breeders with top youngsters) or they will continue riding second rate horses for people with more money than brains, in some cases.

Regarding breeders charging top dollar for their best mounts, they aren't left much choice, because theoretically their pricing should be commensurate with the quality, so it is the few stars that have to make up for all the others that went for slim or no profit (or losses, in many instances). That said, most I know will work with people to make the right match possible.

Wow that is CRAZY prices. When I inquired with BNT's I was quoted 1000-1400 per month for full board and training. We pay about 1270 USD per month for a top up and coming trainer (master bereiter, worked for Hannoverian's, has scores in low-mid 70s at GP etc) in Germany for full board and training. But I have heard other people quote crazy prices as well..


I am wondering if they are 'I don't really want to ride your horses' price quotes? Or if there are people out there stupid enough to pay it, so they charge it!

[YankeeLawyer]

Wow that is CRAZY prices. When I inquired with BNT's I was quoted 1000-1400 per month for full board and training. We pay about 1270 USD per month for a top up and coming trainer (master bereiter, worked for Hannoverian's, has scores in low-mid 70s at GP etc) in Germany for full board and training. But I have heard other people quote crazy prices as well..


I am wondering if they are 'I don't really want to ride your horses' price quotes? Or if there are people out there stupid enough to pay it, so they charge it!

Well, there are BNTs and there are BNTs. A BNT is not a "top up and coming trainer." (that would be a BNUCT ; )). Do you want a team member to ride your horse? They charge $$$$$. By the way, those prices were not quoted to me, but to several of my friends who have phenomenal horses. My personal experience regarding the one horse I mentioned has been that certain GP riders have contacted me and were willing to work something out. It happens that I don't think they would be a good match for me or my horses. And I will inquire with the "right" people next year, when it is relevant, but based on what I am hearing from reliable sources, I am not expecting them to be very flexible. Perhaps the economy will have changed people's attitudes.

Also, I am not talking about young horse starters, I was referring to people who can take your horse say from small tour to GP and be internationally competitive. The top (imo) young horse starter charges $1700 a month, and I can name many who charge about $1200 a month and who, despite their "good" reputations, really do not do a very good job.

[mmt]

The problem is not people's willingness to get top horses in the hands of the right professionals, it is what the top professionals want to charge the owners that is the impediment tp making it happen more often than it does.

The solution would be a "training fund" that subsidizes the professionals on the short list so that owners could adsorb the capital cost of the horses they own, fine, but then not have the running costs to keep the horse in training.

[Sixbar]

Sure the German price I quoted is not BNT but I did not say he was, but the US prices I quoted was from two people who have represented the USA at WEG and or the Olympics, some more than once and are definately considered BNT (in America anyway). I think essentially though the problem is supply and demand. As I said if there are more than enough people willing to pay the 3k+ per month, then sure why wouldn't they charge it? Unfortunately it is an elitist sport. When you look at it there are actually not that many people out there who do a great job. So the ones that do are in high demand and can pick and choose what horses they take and how much they charge.

And no I am not saying its right.. But you can go with the BNT and pay his/her fee's or you can look for a talented up and comer, that can do as good a job. I think there are hungry talented people out there looking for an opportunity..

I do know some of the Gold medal European's can charge upwards of 40,000 Euro a year for training.. I have also had a friend train with a BNT in the USA (WEG AND OLYMPIAN) and she paid about 20K a year for full board and training (she had a super talented horse though). It seems interesting that price quotes seem to be all over the shop. I really don't care who they are I don't think anyone is worth 3K a month for one horse. That is more than a lot of people's monthly wages who work 8+ hours a day. It sure does not take 8 hours a day to train and look after one horse..

[Plantagenet]

On many levels, I start to wonder if it's more about developing good riders than it is good horses.

I see a lot of good horses out and about these days. What I don't see is a lot of riders with the training/experience they need to move forward. I see several folks right on the edge of being internationally competitive but not quite there. I know the USEF tried to address this by asking the long listed riders what they needed. They had a meeting in Chicago last fall as well as meetings in FL and CA this spring. Unfortunately, a clear initiative with clear goals doesn't seem to have come together. I'm wondering if they're a little reluctant to get anything really going until they get a coach?

Things I don't understand: there was a grant fund for $35K for 6 riders to compete in europe this summer, ending at Aachen-many of the riders who qualified for the grant weren't interested in going. So the USEF says we're not doing it (or something to that effect, I'm sorry I don't remember the exact details) Then Jane Hannigan (I love her!) says something like 'wait a minute, I followed the rules and now you're not giving out the money bec. the others don't want to go? I don't think so.' So they eventually 'allowed' Jane to go. Unfortunately in the interim, Maks was hurt so it ended up being for naught.

Regardless, the US riders that did qualify weren't willing to go and the ones that were 'right on the edge' didn't qualify to go. How do we get more riders a chance to run with the big dogs and learn the ins and outs of international competition? The USEF understandably doesn't want to pay the large sums to send riders to Europe that aren't ready but you don't really know what you're doing until you get in the sandbox a few times..

(btw, Jane had to pay her own way to represent the US at the World Cup, what's up with that?)

The big problem may be our own special American spirit: each one wants to do it 'my way.' Many of the riders want to stick with their own coach du jour instead of a national coach. You would have thought that Klaus B. was satan incarnate the way some of the riders talked about him....everything from how he had ruined their horse to he didn't know what he was doing or wouldn't give them the time of day unless they were debbie/guenter/steffen.

I can't help but wonder if there's any person that can herd our group of independent cats into a cohesive program that will give us a broad base of internationally competitive riders?

[Sixbar]

Ok so this is hijaking the thread, and maybe needs to become its own thread? But lets break down costs and see if we can come up with what is considered a fair price.

Trainers costs:

Mortgage ??
Car/truck payments
Wage?? 50K a year 100K a year??
Staff? Some European barns I know have 6-8 staff (most paid)
Feed (not ancillary's as they are usually charged above)

Now we look at it from an owner's point of view.

Cost of training horse from three?? to Grand Prix.

Lets take 5K a month for BNT, ancillary's including competition costs.

=60K a year

Avergae sale price for an average Grand Prix horse 100-200K?? Some way more some less..

Average age of Grand Prix horse, lets say 9?

so from 3-9 6 years time 60K =360K for a horse worth maybe 200K?

Now there are other factors to be taken into account such as are they stallions? So owner get service fees. But I hear an average for a stallion is about five mares. Some way more of course. But most sport horses are gelding's so no breed value there..

I hear tax dodge or just have so much money and you love the sport so much..

And I am open to any correction of what I have said..This is just based on what has been said, and some of my own experiences in looking at GP horses for sale. As I said before I pay way less than what has been quoted here. But that doesn't seem to be the norm..

And you know the funny thing is, I know lot's of people who make a lot of money out of horses. Go figure..

[slc2]

60k for board, training and showing? That's a little off. Try 200,000 a year, or more.

Traveling to the big shows in Europe is expensive.


If someone can train very well, and turn a horse into an olympic horse - yes, they do get paid. Lots.

Taking a 'nice, really nice' horse and turning it into an Olympic horse is a very valuable commodity. One can raise the value of a horse by a factor of 10 or 20 or more. Top horses not only sell for more, they make an owner's other horses much more valuable for decades after, and put his business on the map.

[freestyle2music]

I don't think that Sjef has this information from Internet forums. I know that his information about the current situation of the USA dressage scene is coming from insiders. And NO it's not rocketscience but YES it's very true.

The fact is that many good riders don't have good horses, and many good horses don't have the good riders in the USA.

[slc2]

Who doesn't have a good horse and can ride at the Olympic level in the next 3 years?

I think it applies to a handful of people, not thousands.

[siegi b.]

slc - I think it goes a little deeper than that...... One Olympic quality horse is not enough. You take somebody like Courtney King or Michelle Gibson who have been there and done it, and then look at the horses they currently ride. Not enough horses of the quality required and no depth, i. e. horses of different ages. Look at talented young riders like Liz Austin and Olivier - she should have four or five very talented horses in her barn.

And the list goes on and on....

[egontoast]

And NO it's not rocketscience but YES it's very true.



Yeah, and what else could he say? There's no magical answer to it. Are people looking for magical answers? Everyone knows what is needed. The right horses, the right riders, the right horses WITH the right riders, top coaching, committed sponsors, international shows, money, money and more money etcetcetc.. and importantly, the thing that Tineke B was bragging about recently, a system and plan to develop the next generationS and build for the future. It's a tall order.

I found it interesting to hear the enigma that is Sjef speak. It's interesting as well that he is supporting his biggest rival. Could it be he is a true sportsman despite what others think? :)

(duck and cover)

Although I will say he does look like he has a permanent hangover.

[slc2]

agree on all points siegi

[claire]

The fact is that many good riders don't have good horses, and many good horses don't have the good riders in the USA.

Theo, What is being said is that this may be a fact, it is not the core issue as to the problem of why USA does not have the #1 dressage team.

Plantagenet brought up something interesting: Why weren't any USA riders interested in taking the grant and competing in Europe?



On many levels, I start to wonder if it's more about developing good riders than it is good horses.

Things I don't understand: there was a grant fund for $35K for 6 riders to compete in europe this summer, ending at Aachen-many of the riders who qualified for the grant weren't interested in going.

[egontoast]

there was a grant fund for $35K for 6 riders to compete in europe this summer, ending at Aachen-many of the riders who qualified for the grant weren't interested in going.

yeah but what was the total price tag for a run like that. I doubt 35k would go far. Funding may well still be the problem there.

[DownYonder]

yeah but what was the total price tag for a run like that. I doubt 35k would go far. Funding may well still be the problem there.

$35,000 split among 6 riders isn't even enough to ship a horse to Europe. So the rider and owner have to then come up with funds for board, training, show fees, hotel, meals, transportation, etc., PLUS get the horse back home again. Meanwhile, the rider has to abandon his/her responsibilities to other clients/horses, and lose God knows how much income from training & lesson fees. So while the USEF grant sounds nice, it is not nearly enough. I suspect it might take closer to $35K PER RIDER to entice many people to abandon their businesses here to train/compete in Europe for a few months.

[claire]

Mostly, I was wondering, why no interest in getting the experience of competing in Europe for the summer?
(Obviously, 35k is a drop in the bucket) :winkgrin:

Also, why is USA so much more successful with their jumper's? Or Reiners?

Or Racing horses?

OR, for that matter, why does USA have such successful Basketball teams and Netherlands doesn't?

As Egon said:

The right horses, the right riders, the right horses WITH the right riders, top coaching, committed sponsors, international shows, money, money and more money etcetcetc.. and importantly, the thing that Tineke B was bragging about recently, a system and plan to develop the next generationS and build for the future.
Perhaps the core issue is the level of public interest in a particular sport?

[egontoast]

As Egon said, there are millions of "reasons" but perhaps the core issue is the level of public interest in a particular sport

Just to be clear, that's not what i said ( before one of my...er.. 'friends" jumps on that one);)

[claire]

$35,000 split among 6 riders isn't even enough to ship a horse to Europe. So the rider and owner have to then come up with funds for board, training, show fees, hotel, meals, transportation, etc., PLUS get the horse back home again. Meanwhile, the rider has to abandon his/her responsibilities to other clients/horses, and lose God knows how much income from training & lesson fees. So while the USEF grant sounds nice, it is not nearly enough. I suspect it might take closer to $35K PER RIDER to entice many people to abandon their businesses here to train/compete in Europe for a few months.

Yes, but the USA Jumper team members went to Europe to compete.
They left their business', clients, clinics etc.

They are able to find owners and sponsors to support their endeavors.

Why can't the Dressage team?

[claire]

The right horses, the right riders, the right horses WITH the right riders, top coaching, committed sponsors, international shows, money, money and more money etcetcetc.. and importantly, the thing that Tineke B was bragging about recently, a system and plan to develop the next generationS and build for the future.

Sorry Egon. I shortened your post to "reasons". I will correct. I don't want it getting jumped on by your friends! :winkgrin:

[DownYonder]

Yes, but the USA Jumper team members went to Europe to compete.
They left their business', clients, clinics etc.

They are able to find owners and sponsors to support their endeavors.

Why can't the Dressage team?

There is significantly more prize money in show jumping. Owners and riders of top horses are earning $$$$ by finishing at the top at big GPs, so they are in a better financial position to fund their trips overseas. Not too many dressage competitions in the U.S. offer big purses, so dressage riders/owners have to dig deep into their own pockets to compete in Europe.

[claire]

There is significantly more prize money in show jumping. Owners and riders of top horses are earning $$$$ by finishing at the top at big GPs

Ding! Ding! Ding! :D

And why isn't there big prize money in Dressage?

[ridgeback]

Because there are more people riding jumpers in the U.S. then there are dressage riders. More people = more money and sponsors.

[Equibrit]

It seems a shame to have woken Sjef up for that !

Basically it all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

European teams get national funding and sponsorship.
The best the USA can manage is begging letters from the USET, and wealthy private owners.
There is not enough ground roots support for the sport to generate any sort of sustainable industry.

Not enough;

Riders
Teachers
Breeders
Trainers
Horses
Facilities

etc. etc..

Dressage in the USA is small potatoes; in Europe it's big business. Development at the most basic levels is required to generate the $$$$ required to sustain the industry. That means competent, trainers, teachers, breeders etc.etc..

[claire]

Dressage in the USA is small potatoes; in Europe it's big business.

Wake up Sjef again, here's the answer! :lol:

However, there has to be an interest in the sport in order to develop it from the basic levels and to attract $$$ sponsors and owners.

USA has had difficulty finding the sponsorship interest in hosting the WEG in Kentucky.
And we shall see how ticket sales fare...
Because if the ticket sales aren't there, you sure aren't gonna see the sponsors supporting such endeavors again.

[DownYonder]

Ding! Ding! Ding! :D

And why isn't there big prize money in Dressage?

Because it doesn't attract big gun sponsors. And the reason it doesn't attract big gun sponsors is because it doesn't attract spectators. And it doesn't attract spectators because it is boring at the lower levels and exciting at the upper levels only to people who know what is going on. The average John Q. Citizen off the street doesn't have a clue why one horse places over another in dressage, and the subjective nature of dressage judging is further complicated by politics on the part of the judges. In jumping, it is obvious to everyone why one horse wins and another loses, so someone with no knowledge of horse sport can walk in off the street and understand in no time at all how winners are determined. Jumping has far more spectator appeal, so attracts more big gun sponsors, so purses are bigger and more plentiful - which in turn, attracts more owners/sponsors.

[DownYonder]

USA has had difficulty finding the sponsorship interest in hosting the WEG in Kentucky.
And we shall see how ticket sales fare...
Because if the ticket sales aren't there, you sure aren't gonna see the sponsors supporting such endeavors again.

Yep, we were just up there and that what we were told. There is also some disorganization on the part of WEG as far as going after sponsorships - they apparently haven't even approached the dressage world yet. They have been focusing so far on jumping and reining, which are the two sports with the most spectator appeal, so therefore will attract the most and richest sponsors.

[Equibrit]

Because it doesn't attract big gun sponsors. And the reason it doesn't attract big gun sponsors is because it doesn't attract spectators. And it doesn't attract spectators because it is boring at the lower levels and exciting at the upper levels only to people who know what is going on. The average John Q. Citizen off the street doesn't have a clue why one horse places over another in dressage, and the subjective nature of dressage judging is further complicated by politics on the part of the judges. In jumping, it is obvious to everyone why one horse wins and another loses, so someone with no knowledge of horse sport can walk in off the street and understand in no time at all how winners are determined. Jumping has far more spectator appeal, so attracts more big gun sponsors, so purses are bigger and more plentiful - which in turn, attracts more owners/sponsors.


Don't buy this. If that were the case the sport would be unpopular in Europe also.

[DownYonder]

A greater percentage of people in Germany and Holland are raised with more exposure to horses than in the U.S. Here, so many people grow up with no exposure to horses at all. The sports of choice in Germany and Holland are primarily soccer, tennis, swimming, and horses. The sports of choice in the U.S. are football, baseball, basketball, and soccer, and to a lesser degree, tennis and swimming, with horses coming in very, very far down the list.

[Equibrit]

Don't buy that either. The difference is EDUCATION.

[Plantagenet]

the grant was $35K for each rider, not the entire team.

the idea (so I was told by USEF officials) was partly generated to get some of our up and coming pairs seen in europe. we were going to field a team of 4 riders at Aachen and have 2 pairs go as individuals. I don't know who did or didn't qualify overall. however, $35K doesn't cover expenses in Europe. Just airfare there and back is around $25K for the horse. (for some reason it's more to go over than to fly here)

we might have shot ourselves in the foot by requiring a 68% GP score before you could go. we also had some of our young GP horses meltdown last season.

I feel sympathy for whoever takes over as our coach. It's not going to be easy.

[freestyle2music]

the grant was $35K for each rider, not the entire team.

the idea (so I was told by USEF officials) was partly generated to get some of our up and coming pairs seen in europe. we were going to field a team of 4 riders at Aachen and have 2 pairs go as individuals. I don't know who did or didn't qualify overall. however, $35K doesn't cover expenses in Europe. Just airfare there and back is around $25K for the horse. (for some reason it's more to go over than to fly here)

we might have shot ourselves in the foot by requiring a 68% GP score before you could go. we also had some of our young GP horses meltdown last season.

I feel sympathy for whoever takes over as our coach. It's not going to be easy.[/

Specially when you take in consideration that he or she has to be USA based ;)

[Alagirl]

Because it doesn't attract big gun sponsors. And the reason it doesn't attract big gun sponsors is because it doesn't attract spectators. And it doesn't attract spectators because it is boring at the lower levels and exciting at the upper levels only to people who know what is going on. The average John Q. Citizen off the street doesn't have a clue why one horse places over another in dressage, and the subjective nature of dressage judging is further complicated by politics on the part of the judges. In jumping, it is obvious to everyone why one horse wins and another loses, so someone with no knowledge of horse sport can walk in off the street and understand in no time at all how winners are determined. Jumping has far more spectator appeal, so attracts more big gun sponsors, so purses are bigger and more plentiful - which in turn, attracts more owners/sponsors.

well, exposure, rather lack there of. You don't see much of horse sports on TV, so the exposure is limited to on site audience.

In Europe the big competitions are broadcasted, even stuff like Carriage driving (to a lesser extend of course).

But since the public is not educated I don't see the air time increase, you have a better chance of seeing life coverage of the highland games or of the latest "Magic, the Gathering" tournament....

[ridgeback]

We are a country of 300 million it has very little to do with education you will always have a small % of people who give a crap about dressage, jumping or reining. You can not compare the U.S. to a small country like the Netherlands.

[YankeeLawyer]

slc - I think it goes a little deeper than that...... One Olympic quality horse is not enough. You take somebody like Courtney King or Michelle Gibson who have been there and done it, and then look at the horses they currently ride. Not enough horses of the quality required and no depth, i. e. horses of different ages. Look at talented young riders like Liz Austin and Olivier - she should have four or five very talented horses in her barn.

And the list goes on and on....

EXACTLY!

[J-Lu]

I agree with DownYonder here.

DownYonder is pretty right on with the costs of hiring a top level BNT in the US. Some trainers will charge you for taking their time to go to a show (that's 24/7 for a weekend show). Plus the separate hotel room and rental car and nice dinners, etc. It's expensive. Hilda G is perhaps the cheapest and I give her many kudos for keeping her prices reasonable.

In addition, how many european riders feel the need to "be seen" in America? Pretty much none. But American riders need to "be seen" by the judges in Europe (and at face value perfectly illustrates the bias in the sport). It costs a fortune to send riders there and not every rider wants to or can uproot for months at a time to train in Europe. They leave behind clients, other duties, families, etc.

And who is supposed to pay for this all? Who is supposed to pay to keep the BNTs of the world on multiple international-quality horses and pay for all of the expenses? There are definitely individuals who want to support *specific riders* because they have a rapport with them. But the sport is too expensive to find more than a couple of handfuls of super wealthy people who want to spend their money on sponsoring a dressage rider. It is waaaaay to expensive for many corporations and individuals to justify, in light of all of the bona-fide causes and charities that they could spend their monies on.

He (he?) is also right on about the spectator appeal of dressage in America and the relatively low interest in horse events here. Jumpers are very exciting to watch - especially the jump-off. it's nail-biting for the spectators. People can hoop and holler after a round. It is very easy to score (time faults and jump faults - simple). People say that hunters are endlessly boring but at least they jump over pretty fences and if they miss a distance or knock down a rail it is obvious. In dressage no newbie is going to gasp "oh my god, look at those trailing haunches!!". Dressage IS boring to the uninitiated and tedius to those people who like sheer excitement in sport. Plus, america's equine heritage is based much more on Western events and hunter riding. It is unreasonable to think that a country's population is supposed to be super-excited about every single sport.

[YankeeLawyer]

I agree with DownYonder here.

DownYonder is pretty right on with the costs of hiring a top level BNT in the US. Some trainers will charge you for taking their time to go to a show (that's 24/7 for a weekend show). Plus the separate hotel room and rental car and nice dinners, etc. It's expensive. Hilda G is perhaps the cheapest and I give her many kudos for keeping her prices reasonable.

.

I don't see where DownYonder discussed the cost of hiring a top level BNT.

Agreed in principle re the different economics of SJ and the significance of spectator appeal. I disagree that dressage is hopeless in that regard, and imo the key is the musical freestyle. Ladies figure skating is very popular, gets TV coverage on major networks and huge sponsorship endorsements. It does not matter if viewers understand the nuances or not; it appeals because it is beautiful to watch.

And I do agree with Planetagent's comments re the lack of really good dressage riders in this country. ♦

[Equibrit]

And I do agree with Planetagent's comments re the lack of really good dressage riders in this country. ♦

Because there is no EDUCATION for them. Because there are no teachers being EDUCATED, no trainers being EDUCATED, no breeders being EDUCATED. no horses being EDUCATED.

If regular run of the mill riders had the correct EDUCATION you would stimulate an interest that could finance an industry.

[ridgeback]

I don't see where DownYonder discussed the cost of hiring a top level BNT.

Agreed in principle re the different economics of SJ and the significance of spectator appeal. I disagree that dressage is hopeless in that regard, and imo the key is the musical freestyle. Ladies figure skating is very popular, gets TV coverage on major networks and huge sponsorship endorsements. It does not matter if viewers understand the nuances or not; it appeals because it is beautiful to watch.

And I do agree with Planetagent's comments re the lack of really good dressage riders in this country. ♦

But ladies figure skating does not take a pair of skates that costs millions. Horse showing is and will continue to be viewed as an elitest sport.

[J-Lu]

I don't see where DownYonder discussed the cost of hiring a top level BNT.

Agreed in principle re the different economics of SJ and the significance of spectator appeal. I disagree that dressage is hopeless in that regard, and imo the key is the musical freestyle. Ladies figure skating is very popular, gets TV coverage on major networks and huge sponsorship endorsements. It does not matter if viewers understand the nuances or not; it appeals because it is beautiful to watch.

And I do agree with Planetagent's comments re the lack of really good dressage riders in this country. ♦

Oh, sorry! That was you who mentioned the cost of hiring a BNT.

I see your point about figure skating. But America has a strong history of figure skating. Even *I* had a Dorothy Hammil haircut as a kid - she was a national icon. Any kid can go to the skating rink or the local frozen pond or the backyard after your parents flood a section in the wintertime and go skating. Not so with horse sports unless you grew up around them. Oh yes, good point Ridgeback.

[slc2]

I agree that competing top horses is expensive, but I think the idea that a kid can skate on a pond and become an Olympic skater is thirty cents shy of a quarter.

ALL sports are expensive to excel in, all require expensive coaching, most require expensive facilities, travel, and sacrificing income for time spent practicing and competing. Skaters need expensive coaches, and use of a rink is not cheap, and no, actually, one can't really skate on a pond, one needs a groomed rink to practice the tough stuff. Most sports require extensive travel to excel at, to compete at, and the higher up the harder and more expensive it gets.

Horses are very expensive. It's expensive to ship horses. But coaching and expenses for any elite sport are very costly, plus one sacrifices other incomes.

[J-Lu]

I agree that competing top horses is expensive, but I think the idea that a kid can skate on a pond and become an Olympic skater is thirty cents shy of a quarter.

Of course you miss the point. Let me explain it to you. It is not that a kid can skate on a pond and become an Olympic skater. The point is that a kid can watch an American Skater on TV and then go skate on a pond. Thus, they *can relate* to ice skating. Because they can relate they buy tickets to "stars on ice" and stay home to watch figure skating on TV. They buy the cereal box their favorite skater is on. Thus, sponsors support the sport because they can reach consumers. That support makes the sport more accessable and thus, more popular.


ALL sports are expensive to excel in, all require expensive coaching, most require expensive facilities, travel, and sacrificing income for time spent practicing and competing. Skaters need expensive coaches, and use of a rink is not cheap, and no, actually, one can't really skate on a pond, one needs a groomed rink to practice the tough stuff. Most sports require extensive travel to excel at, to compete at, and the higher up the harder and more expensive it gets.

Ummmmm, again, you miss the point. So let me explain. Did Lisa Wilcox or Debbie McDonald or Ingrid Klimke first climb onto the back of a FEI level horse? Or did they ride a pony or a grade horse first? But I digress. The point is that figure skating is so lucrative and popular in large part because people can relate to it. Lots of people can and have been on ice skates. Lots of people and kids have been inspired by top competitors. THEY are the ones who buy all the tickets to Stars on Ice, buy the Kristi t-shirts and otherwise make supporting skaters lucrative to skating sponsors. Get my point? Also, it takes a WHOLE lot less money to get to the mid-levels in ice skating and gymnastics and other sports than it takes to get to the mid-levels in dressage.


Horses are very expensive. It's expensive to ship horses. But coaching and expenses for any elite sport are very costly, plus one sacrifices other incomes.

What other sport requires a six-figure partner, plus thousands per month on boarding and training, plus tens of thousands to ship back and forth to Europe, plus hundreds per month on shoes and supplements, etc? Michael Phelps' swim suit doesn't cost any more than a custom saddle!!!!

PS. The new Arena X-glide suit that supposedly beat Phelp's speedo suit costs less than the cheapest leather saddle you can find at Dover. Let that add a little perspective.

[YankeeLawyer]

I agree that competing top horses is expensive, but I think the idea that a kid can skate on a pond and become an Olympic skater is thirty cents shy of a quarter.

ALL sports are expensive to excel in, all require expensive coaching, most require expensive facilities, travel, and sacrificing income for time spent practicing and competing. Skaters need expensive coaches, and use of a rink is not cheap, and no, actually, one can't really skate on a pond, one needs a groomed rink to practice the tough stuff. Most sports require extensive travel to excel at, to compete at, and the higher up the harder and more expensive it gets.

Absolutely. You know what the difference is? Why we have the best swimmers, basketball players, and skaters, for example? Because there is a payoff at the end. Parents and kids see these people on TV; they read in the paper that they make millions in endorsements, they see them on the front of their Wheaties boxes in the morning. I have been dragged to enough little league games to see how frenzied parents get because they are convinced little Johnnie is going to get that scholarship to college and ultimately a multimillion dollar contract with the Mets. Dreams of fame and fortune attract participants. And while I agree that riding is not as accessible as other sports (and requires more than simply a baseball glove to participate), that has not hindered it from being very popular in other countries. In England, for example, showjumping is second only to professional football (soccer) as a spectator sport. Holland does not have a lot of Olympic gold medalists; hence Anky's stardom there, in part. I do think a lot more could be done in this country to more effectively market the sport and to attract corporate sponsorships. It is a bit of a chicken and egg dilemma, though.

[YankeeLawyer]

J-Lu, LOL I think we were posting at the same time : )

[Happy Feet]

What a great discussion!
Of course what Sj said is the obvious answer but if you scratch beneath the surface you can see why this is so difficult and doesn't always work out in the end.
First off, BNT should get 3-5K per month for training. Most athletes get paid millions per year, plus hefty sums for endorsements. Most people at the top of any profession get paid very well, why should dressage trainers be any different, they probably work harder than most other athletes, have just many years being educated as other professionals etc... But, lets say for arguments sake that a BNT sees a horse that they really want in there barn and say's "sure I'll take you horse on for free", then what? Even if the horse is the best in the country, with the best rider in the country, who pays for it to go to Europe, maybe several times, travel across our country for the necessary shows? Our governing bodies don't pay for all expenses associated with being on a team, let alone getting there!...
I really must disagree with the comment that we don't have good riders here. I could easily list 10 off the top of my head that are fab. up and coming riders! Really really good riders, with good fundamentals, and great attitudes! What they need is more great training and great horses! More people should take a chance and put their super youngster (or super mature horses for that matter) with up and coming riders! . I bet many people would be surprised at what a up and coming rider could do for you, and in turn what you could them. Each "super" horse an up and coming rider gets to show/rider get him or her a little bit closer to a national or international arena.
I think in order to truly get the best horses with the best riders there needs to be more funding. Help is needed for owners who have these wonderful youngsters that can't afford the trainers they know their horses should be with. It would help Up and coming riders take on showing and training up and coming horses at their expense.
In the end we all need to try a little bit harder to give back to this great sport if we want to see if flourish and stay competitive internationally. It means we as trainers need to help more up and coming riders and also AA's who really want/need/deserve more help, it means people stepping up and maybe offering their really nice horse for their trainer to show (even if it's just once or twice), or sponsoring a class at a show, or even just a special ribbon or prize at local shows. I think we need to adopt that "Yes We Can" doctrine for dressage! Who know where it will get us :>

[J-Lu]

I hear what you are saying, Happy Feet. But top athletes are paid (OVERPAID, in my opinion) by sponsorships and franchise owners. Why should they have to be millionaires? I don't think they should be. In dressage, top athletes are paid by owners and students. Oh, and few BNTs make as little as 3K or even 5K per month. That's what scientists and teachers make. BNTs can make 3-5K on a weekend clinic.

Your point is correct. Who pays for the training and upkeep of the horse? On the one hand, riders become famous on the backs of great horses and don't pay for much. They go on to make thousands on clinics, articles, endorsements, books, blogs, videos etc. They often pay less taxes than you do. I would suggest that they may consider giving back to the sport by charging less for riding and training young talent that is bred in America. Or charging nothing to gain the promotion they get through the USDF symposia series. But they won't because they don't have to.

Owners *could* support American breeders by buying American. But it's easier to shop in Europe and many owners like the prestige of owning European horses. Hell, lots of breeders import stock from Europe because they dislike American stock...even though American stock is largely European horses who happen to live in America.

Governing bodies should NOT use membership money to support top riders.

My opinion. This IS a great discussion, Happy Feet. Thanks!

[slc2]

"let me explain it to you''

You don't have to explain that, it's very obvious. But a kid can also go bop around on a horse in their friend's 200 dollar horse in their back yard, or at summer camp, the equivalent of the skating pond you mention.

The trouble is that it is expensive to do anything beyond that. That's what I was addressing. And I stand by what I said before - ANY sport is costly to excel in. Skating coaches, gymnastic coaches, I've seen families pay through the teeth for years and years of full time coaching for their kids. It's monstrously expensive.

I think the reason dressage isn't more popular with the general public because, frankly, it's boring. Even musical freestyles, frankly, are boring. To non horse people. I don't actually think they will make dressage a big sport in America. I think our culture is standing in the way of dressage being more popular with the general public than it is.

And honestly, I think riding is viewed as an 'elitist' sport by people who don't ride because of the perceived behavior of the participants - as my dad described a horse show, 'a bunch of horse's asses looking at a bunch of horse's asses'....it doesn't matter how nice horse people are, they are viewed in our culture as arrogant rich snobs. It's a part of our culture. I think that's why the public likes cowboys - they're the REAL horse riders, down to earth, smokin' a ciggie, slouching manfully in the saddle, yadda yadda.

[J-Lu]

"let me explain it to you''

You don't have to explain that, it's very obvious. But a kid can also go bop around on a horse in their friend's 200 dollar horse in their back yard, or at summer camp, the equivalent of the skating pond you mention.

The trouble is that it is expensive to do anything beyond that. That's what I was addressing. And I stand by what I said before - ANY sport is costly to excel in. Skating coaches, gymnastic coaches, I've seen families pay through the teeth for years and years of full time coaching for their kids. It's monstrously expensive.

I think the reason dressage isn't more popular with the general public because, frankly, it's boring. Even musical freestyles, frankly, are boring. To non horse people. I don't actually think they will make dressage a big sport in America. I think our culture is standing in the way of dressage being more popular with the general public than it is.

And honestly, I think riding is viewed as an 'elitist' sport by people who don't ride because of the perceived behavior of the participants - as my dad described a horse show, 'a bunch of horse's asses looking at a bunch of horse's asses'....it doesn't matter how nice horse people are, they are viewed in our culture as arrogant rich snobs. It's a part of our culture. I think that's why the public likes cowboys - they're the REAL horse riders, down to earth, smokin' a ciggie, slouching manfully in the saddle, yadda yadda.

Slc2, few kids have friends who own horses. Fewer kids have friends who allow them to come "bop around" on their horses.

Owning and competing a competitive mid-level horse is more expensive than mid-level skating lessons and ice time.

Competing in dressage is expensive. It is not a perception. It is a fact. Our culture does not uniformly view horse people as "arrogant rich snobs". The FACT is that it is very very expensive to campaign an upper level dressage horse. The public likes cowboys because ANYONE can enter the bucking bronc classes and work their way up. They don't own the horses. it is also much easier to access roping and reining classes because they are MUCH less costly to do. Do you know how much it costs to rope cattle at a local barn versus go to a dressage show? Do you know how many kids participate in gymkhanas and roping events versus dressage events? Do you know the average price of a mid level roping horse or barrel horse versus a mid-level dressage horse? Sure, top western horses are very costly but lower to mid levels are much cheaper and much much much more accessible. Like jumpers, you don't need an "S" judge to tell you if you roped the cow or knocked over the rail.

[YankeeLawyer]

First off, BNT should get 3-5K per month for training. Most athletes get paid millions per year, plus hefty sums for endorsements. Most people at the top of any profession get paid very well, why should dressage trainers be any different, they probably work harder than most other athletes, have just many years being educated as other professionals etc... But, lets say for arguments sake that a BNT sees a horse that they really want in there barn and say's "sure I'll take you horse on for free", then what? Even if the horse is the best in the country, with the best rider in the country, who pays for it to go to Europe, maybe several times, travel across our country for the necessary shows? Our governing bodies don't pay for all expenses associated with being on a team, let alone getting there!...

I don't begrudge anyone for being successful and making a lot of money. Really, I don't. But, realistically, if these very same BNT actually want access to top horses to ride, consistently, there is going to have to be more partnering between owners and riders. And yes, those clients with less talented horses will and should pay more than the one with a very exceptional horse. I am a former hunter/jumper rider and I know from experience that the top H/J trainers DO make concessions for their most talented riders who have limited means, and for owners of top horses that are on a budget. All those junior "pros" catch riding? They get paid to ride those horses, unlike the other juniors in the barn whose parents are forking out many thousands per month to keep them on the circuit. It is no different than universities that give merit scholarships to their most talented students. It only seems to be a foreign concept in the dressage world, but maybe that will change. And I am not expecting anyone to take any horse for "free," but there is a world of difference b/w free training and 50K a year before you pay one farrier bill or go to one horse show.

In addition, I know that our very biggest names are concerned about access to top horses; I have spoken to a number of them myself and repeatedly I hear them lament that the best horses are snapped up by ammies with money, and they (the BNR/BNT) cannot afford to buy those.




I really must disagree with the comment that we don't have good riders here. I could easily list 10 off the top of my head that are fab. up and coming riders! Really really good riders, with good fundamentals, and great attitudes! What they need is more great training and great horses!

I respectfully disagree, and in any event by contrast I could probably name HUNDREDS of much better up and coming jumper riders. I go to a lot of horse shows and honestly the dressage riding is pretty weak, particularly at the lower levels. Most amateur hunter and jumper riders on the A circuit are far better riders than anyone I see in this area. I don't mean that to be snarky; I really don't. But I see a lot of poor riding, and the occasional beautiful rider.




More people should take a chance and put their super youngster (or super mature horses for that matter) with up and coming riders! . I bet many people would be surprised at what a up and coming rider could do for you, and in turn what you could them. Each "super" horse an up and coming rider gets to show/rider get him or her a little bit closer to a national or international arena.

Been there, done that. I will only consider doing it again in very exceptional circumstances (there is one rider now that I want to help). But, for one thing, green on green does not work. You cannot hire a rider who has never been competitive at GP level and expect that person to be able to develop your top youngster (or even small tour horse) into the next Ravel. It is just very, very unlikely to happen. If you are just talking about developing a nice youngster through the lower levels, and maybe PSG, that is a different ballgame (and, in fact, often requires someone other than a GP rider).

In addition, we are talking about horses of a calibre which, for most owners, would be their "horse of a lifetime." Say you are a breeder, and finally produce the true Olympic prospect after many years and many horses that aren't on that level. You seriously think someone is going to put what amounts to their life's work, in some respects, into the hands of someone who has never done - even on a mature horse - what you seek to accomplish, oh, and by the way, spend a small fortune to have that opportunity? And, even IF that up and coming rider does the most bang up job imaginable, and is the next coming of Klimke, do not forget that there is no small amount of politics that impacts the judging and, ultimately, team selection (and, even more ultimately, who actually gets to ride at the Olympics and who gets to be the traveling alternate who gets to spectate).

What I have found is that a lot of riders, even some very talented ones, talk a big game but just cannot deliver. They never have, and it is unlikely they ever will. Very occasionally, you do come across a gem that just needs the right opportunity. But those are rare, and that should come as no surprise as we are talking about a search for the very, very top riders in the world.



In the end we all need to try a little bit harder to give back to this great sport if we want to see if flourish and stay competitive internationally. It means we as trainers need to help more up and coming riders and also AA's who really want/need/deserve more help, it means people stepping up and maybe offering their really nice horse for their trainer to show (even if it's just once or twice), or sponsoring a class at a show, or even just a special ribbon or prize at local shows.>

A lot more people need to step up to the plate. The sport cannot stay competitive if the economics are such that only two or three families end up underwriting the Olympic Team. And as some of those benefactors are older, retired people, a new generation really needs to get involved to ensure continued opportunities for team contenders.

[YankeeLawyer]

Because there is no EDUCATION for them. Because there are no teachers being EDUCATED, no trainers being EDUCATED, no breeders being EDUCATED. no horses being EDUCATED.

If regular run of the mill riders had the correct EDUCATION you would stimulate an interest that could finance an industry.

Any ideas about how to change that? I do not disagree. You can also add to the list - EDUCATION of buyers. Recently I have been thinking it might be helpful if registries, or trainers like Scott Hassler, offered some clinics on how to evaluate a young horse and pick a suitable prospect. Speaking of Mr. Hassler, you might look at his article in this week's COTH if you have not seen it already.

[DownYonder]

You can't educate a disinterested populace. The average city kid has no interest in horses, and no desire to learn anything about them, and this is also true for the average suburban kid, esp. if the kid's parents are obsessed with following their favorite football, baseball, or basketball teams. Those sports are the kid's reality - not horse sports. Yes, some may find dressage freestyles at the upper levels somewhat entertaining, but if they have to choose between watching Edward Gal and Totilas or watching their favorite college or pro sports team, guess which one they will choose?

[ridgeback]

You can't educate a disinterested populace. The average city kid has no interest in horses, and no desire to learn anything about them, and this is also true for the average suburban kid, esp. if the kid's parents are obsessed with following their favorite football, baseball, or basketball teams. Those sports are the kid's reality - not horse sports. Yes, some may find dressage freestyles at the upper levels somewhat entertaining, but if they have to choose between watching Edward Gal and Totilas or watching their favorite college or pro sports team, guess which one they will choose?

YEP!!!!

Yankee lawyer is correct the hunter jumper trainers will work with a talented rider or an owner who has an exceptional horse I've even seen the top Grand Prix riders do this. I also have noticed kids now a days expect things handed to them and they don't feel they need to work for it. Amazing how many think they should just be able to ride instead of working to be able to ride. I know some trainers both in the h/j and dressage world who will make people work their butts off to ride it is a good way to see how badly someone wants it.

[slc2]

There are not enough riders in the US with international experience to 'give a chance' to all the kids who want a chance. Their parents have to fund it, and many of them can't or won't do so.

I once was asked to 'share' my horse with a young rider, whose parents would not get her a horse. They made 20 times more money than I did in a year. It's not just about affording it. There are quite a few parents who simply do not want to get their kid a horse.

[Plantagenet]

for explaining what I was clumsily trying to say: I believe we need to focus on educating riders to international levels. I'm not really sure how to do that though-we're so big as a country that its hard to get a culture going like Germany's or Holland's. They have shows nearly every weekend....some local shows can have 2,000 horses! There are more chances to see good horses and riders.

Lately, I've been thinking the recent increase in live internet streaming may help OUR riders get a better idea of what we're up against.

I don't think we have bad riders, btw. I get irritated at US judges I hear putting down riders w/o as much training/experience as others. Instead of saying bad things about folks who aren't 'there' yet, I wish they would ask themselves, how can we help 'x' get better?

I believe we have many folks with TALENT, we're just not sure how to bring them along. In Europe, the culture can bring them along to a certain point w/o a concerted effort on the part of the NF. At some point it looks like their NF steps in and guides. Though I've heard that things in Germany aren't as good as they used to be. Here it seems like our decision makers practically drool on people like Steffen and ignore the bulk of the rest.

The approach by the USEF so far seems to be: if you want it, fight for it yourself. I'm all for that, but where's the battlefield?

Is it in Europe? is it in finding your own sponsor? Or is it in the Florida/Calif. circuit? :confused:

Perhaps it's all of the above, I can't tell.

It also doesn't help that the USEF keeps changing the target! Any HP rider can tell you about that in detail.


p.s. I don't mean to bash all judges. I've seen Gary Rockwell, Jessica Ransehausen and Linda Zang try to quietly guide some riders in the right direction. I admire them for that.

[claire]

You can't educate a disinterested populace. The average city kid has no interest in horses, and no desire to learn anything about them

Great discussion. I like hearing the breeder's point of view.

But, I believe DownYonder has touched on the core issue: which is the lack of the general public interest in Dressage as a sport in USA vs eg. Netherlands.

Sponsors put their $$$ where the general public's interest already exists.
They aren't interested in funding an Equine Sport Developing Education Program. :winkgrin:
And even when some PTB in the media does go out on a limb,
equine sports shows on TV have had pretty dismal ratings.

Animal Planet had several reality equine shows. I don't see any being re-newed.

How well did Robert Dover's "Next Dressage Star" do in ratings? (hint: not very)

Actually, the only equine sport that is popular with JQPublic, and actually MAKES money and has investors is racing.

Yet, how many people on the street could actually name the last Kentucky Derby winning jockey or horse? How many could even tell you who Steffen P. or Debbie M. or George M. or Anky is?

Is it a wonder that the WC struggles to break even in LV? Or that the WEG in Lexington is struggling for sponsors and (probably) ticket sales?

Actually, I think it is amazing that USA has the success it does in Dressage, Show Jumping and Eventing. And that is thanks to a few very dedicated supporters putting up the $$$.

[Marydell]

I am enjoying this topic on so many levels.

In reading both Yankee Lawyer and Down Yonder, both have very valid points.

My husband and I have been very blessed to have a super exceptional horse come into our lives. Don Principe was intended to be a breeding stallion that--IF we could afford it, would at best go to PSG. We are on a "fixed" income, so paying the bills has been difficult at times.

Prince has surprised all of us with his talent and his heart. We were very fortunate to have an excellent trainer who worked with us, both financially and goal wise. Jim took Prince to his first Grand Prix win at age 9, well beyond our initial expectations.
We have been told by European judges and clinicians that we have an international quality horse. But when showinig, the scores just don't seem to come our way. We are a "nobody" owner without the financial resources to "pay our way" with a no name rider(internationaly that is). End of the road-period.

But Jim, having other clients and obligations, told us that we needed another rider to take Prince all the way. Since we did not have the money and we knew no one we could trust( with 2 exceptions) to take Prince on, in of June 2009, Don Principe was retired from competition.

For the 2 weeks I had him close to home, I feel in love with him all over again. I had many of our mare owners, people we had met at the shows, trainers and judges, contact us to try to convince us that we were holding Prince back, were unfair to the horse. Well, the horse does not know what the WEG is over any other show. NO ONE offered any support to us of any kind, sponsorship of product or financial donations.( and believe me, I did ask)

But a light bulb moment in our personal lives about how short life is, led us to contact Courtney King-Dye. Finances are an issue. We hope we can pay for at least 4 to 6 months to determine if what we were told is real, or just BS. Then, if Prince is "all that", we have a problem, where do we find the $$$$$ to support him along the way? For all of this stallion's accomplishments, and his offsprings', we do not get very many breedings to him, so that he does not even pay his board fees.

So the retiremenet was temporary, but might be entered once again by spring.

I agree that dressage is boring. I am already thinking about a new freestyle as we can not use the one we had for Jim and Prince. But it is too soon for that. The horse and rider have to forma new partnership and the overall picture will change. But it is what makes the upper levels interesting.

Ihad two daughters who rode as teenagers and one who still rides. But dressage?--no way, give them jumpers or eventers.

I have at least 4 youngsters on the farm that will be as good if not better than Prince. But no one gives them any consideration. If I have--for example-- a Sandro Hit, Quaterback, or Bellisimo, then those will sell.

Personal soapbox-- and a question for all of the riders and breeders out there-- what are we breeding for-- in hand or performance? And if performance, why are the bloodlines that do not produce upper level horses being the ones rewarded by breed show wins, SPS daughters and licensed stallions that never compete past 5 or 6 yr old?

If the breeding does not have as a goal the upper level performance horse, how are we going to find them for our talented riders?

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[YankeeLawyer]

You can't educate a disinterested populace. The average city kid has no interest in horses, and no desire to learn anything about them, and this is also true for the average suburban kid, esp. if the kid's parents are obsessed with following their favorite football, baseball, or basketball teams. Those sports are the kid's reality - not horse sports. Yes, some may find dressage freestyles at the upper levels somewhat entertaining, but if they have to choose between watching Edward Gal and Totilas or watching their favorite college or pro sports team, guess which one they will choose?

First of all, there is plenty of room for improvement before it is going to matter whether the average city kid cares at all about horse sports. We currently are (and historically always have been) in a situation where the US Dressage Team has at least one and probably two slots up for grab. That is pathetic. We could not even send a team to Aachen. We did not even have a single young horse on US soil get the requisite 8.2 to qualify this year for the World Young Horse Championships in Germany. And if you compare dressage to showjumping, it is really pathetic, as at any given time we could field a half dozen jumper squads that could win in international competition, and historically we have been even stronger than we are now in that discipline.

Also, there are regions where horse sports are very popular with average young people. In my area, tons of kids are horse crazy, many schools offer riding as an option for PE, and there happen to be more equestrian olympiads per capita in my county than anywhere else in the US. I also grew up in NYC and have lived in the deep south and Rancho Santa Fe California, and in each of these places there was a strong horse community and a lot of kids and their school friends had some exposure to and interest in horses. And please explain why US kids are so different from their counterparts in England, Holland, France, and Germany that there is no way dressage could ever be made more appealing and more marketable here? I really don't buy the "because it costs a million dollars to buy a horse and people can't relate theory" for many of the reasons already discussed. Take golf, for example. I cannot think of a more boring sport to watch on TV; I find it to be sheer torture. But people LOVE it - even people who have never played, will never be a member of any golf club, etc. And, look at the impact of Tiger Woods in that sport. A single super star, who all of a sudden captures the dreams of a whole bunch of people out there who would otherwise never have aspired to *be* Tiger.

[Marydell]

Another question- this is an issue where I think that many people are speaking with a double standard. Discussed many times on breeding and performance threads regarding the economy.

When a breeder has several youngsters for sale, and has a hard time actually getting them sold, paying bills is difficult.
So it is proposed that when a top foal comes along, you charge a premium price so the other foals can go for less than what we have into them to balance the accounts.

Then the top riders without funds to buy these foals/young horses cannot get the best. So now you are suggesting the we breeders either give away or sell for deeply discounted prices, the best, so that the top riders can have them.

If we did that, we breeders would not exsist any longer. Can't have it both ways

So here is the question--How can we get the best horses into the best rider's hands without hurting either party??

This is the basis of most of the discussion. We can talk it to death, have valid points of view, but I don't see any solid suggestions to address the answer.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[ridgeback]

Because you can get a set of clubs and it doesn't cost thousands, tens of thousands or millions. The up keep of horses is what makes it so expensive and out of reach for most Americans. At least the hunter jumper shows have pay backs in their classes. Unless I'm watching the international level dressage I find all the rest just as boring as watching golf. If we were to put all the horse people and all the horses in the state of Maryland(size of the Netherlands) we would be like the netherlands and maybe unbeatable.

[claire]

So here is the question--How can we get the best horses into the best rider's hands without hurting either party??

This is the basis of most of the discussion. We can talk it to death, have valid points of view, but I don't see any solid suggestions to address the answer.

Thank you for sharing your experience with your lovely Don Principe.
I hope something works out for Don Principe and Courtney!

Yes, Sjef's solution of the right riders to be matched with the right horses, while eloquent is really not that easily accomplished without a broader interest ($) in the sport.

[YankeeLawyer]

I have at least 4 youngsters on the farm that will be as good if not better than Prince. But no one gives them any consideration. If I have--for example-- a Sandro Hit, Quaterback, or Bellisimo, then those will sell.

Personal soapbox-- and a question for all of the riders and breeders out there-- what are we breeding for-- in hand or performance? And if performance, why are the bloodlines that do not produce upper level horses being the ones rewarded by breed show wins, SPS daughters and licensed stallions that never compete past 5 or 6 yr old?

If the breeding does not have as a goal the upper level performance horse, how are we going to find them for our talented riders?

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

Oh my gosh, I wish you had been at the show at Morven yesterday. I had this same conversation with a breeder whom I really admire, who has owned an Olympic horse, and who currently has a phenomenal young GP horse as well as others coming up the FEI ranks. Her young GP horse is about twice the size of any of the mature horses most breeders, including top ones, are breeding now. I don't mean in terms of height, though he is on the tall side. This horse has massive bone and incredible muscle development. He is absolutely stunning. He happens to be jumper bred, with Cor de la Bryere lines. And he is in a plain brown wrapper, no white, with a ginormous head and big ears - not the type that would have been an easy sell as a yearling to most buyers here.

We spoke for quite a while about the differences between marketable youngsters and ones that have true upper level potential, and how, despite the fact that all buyers say they want an FEI prospect, what they want and buy is pretty, not necessarily the top athlete. And that is totally fine; different buyers, different goals, different horses. But what we were saying is of concern is that it is not apparent whether some top breeders even know the difference, or understand what an international level horse looks like. I really would like everyone to come see this one horse because he is practically the antithesis of what breeding programs are moving towards not only here, but abroad as well, with the increase in popularity of the very refined, modern, almost TB type of horse. You need bone; you need an engine, and you need a frame that is going to be able to support a whole lot of muscle if the horse is to go down center line in the international arena.

I also do not think, in general, that the FEI young horse classes are geared towards identifying the future stars for the big ring. I think they can be good experience for a youngster, and they offer excellent exposure, but a horse that wins finals is not necessarily the most likely to make it to GP, not at all, because the two divisions require and reward completely different things (and how many of the Young Horse World Champions have gone on to be international GP stars - like maybe none?). And don't even get me started on DSHB. I think they are very valuable for what they are - a chance to get your youngster used to a horse show atmosphere and much that showing entails, exposure for your program, etc. But I really don't care about results in terms of identifying future performance stars. I think DSHB can be very competitive, and it is something to be able to say you have won at a show like Devon, but that in and of itself tells me little about whether the horse has legitimate upper level potential.

So, how do we identify and develop young talent and get them into the right hands? I fear it is going to be increasingly up to the breeders to bring the horses along at least far enough so that the top riders can see what the horse can really do, just as in hunters and jumpers, where the top trainers really don't want to see the babies until they are 4 and jumping under saddle. And if breeders can't do that themselves, they need to make sure they get their horses into the hands of people who have the capability and inclination to manage the development of the horse properly.

[YankeeLawyer]

Another question- this is an issue where I think that many people are speaking with a double standard. Discussed many times on breeding and performance threads regarding the economy.

When a breeder has several youngsters for sale, and has a hard time actually getting them sold, paying bills is difficult.
So it is proposed that when a top foal comes along, you charge a premium price so the other foals can go for less than what we have into them to balance the accounts.

Then the top riders without funds to buy these foals/young horses cannot get the best. So now you are suggesting the we breeders either give away or sell for deeply discounted prices, the best, so that the top riders can have them.

If we did that, we breeders would not exsist any longer. Can't have it both ways

So here is the question--How can we get the best horses into the best rider's hands without hurting either party??

This is the basis of most of the discussion. We can talk it to death, have valid points of view, but I don't see any solid suggestions to address the answer.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

This is a huge problem for breeders, and I do not think there is an easy answer. I had that dilemma this year. I have two very good foals, but one is really exceptional. Family had unexpected medical bills, etc. Hard year. I have had interest from buyers in everyone, but I could get more money for the really special foal, in fact, a really nice price. Can't do it. I will eat PB&J all year if I have to (might have to!). But the reason why I can't do it is that despite all of the interest in that foal, no one has come along who has been the right person to develop the horse (not as rider or as sponsor of a top rider). And, in fact, it was CKD who talked me into keeping this one so that the foal would have a chance at going to the right rider one day.

On the other hand, I think we agree that what sells best as a foal or very young horse is not necessarily the one with the most GP potential, and frequently is the one with the most popular pedigree and a healthy dose of bling, and an auction trot really helps. So breed some to sell and some to develop. If you want to be able to sell both types, buyers are going to have to become more educated about evaluating youngsters, and frankly I think you can only teach so much (people either have an eye or they don't, in some respects).

[Equibrit]

THIS is how people are educated;

http://www.bhs.org.uk/content/Edu-home.asp

I know, you're saying "we know all about that" - but explore their site and take a look at ALL that they do. They were only established in 1947 when horses became athletes instead of workers. In a country smaller than most States there are 3 million riders and a very healthy sport horse industry. There are similar organizations throughout Europe for the promotion of the horse industry. They do a very good job.

Their objectives are;

To promote and advance the education, training and safety of the public in all matters relating to the horse;
To promote the use, breeding, well-being, safety, environment, health and management of the horse for the public benefit;
To promote community participation in healthy recreation involving the horse.
To promote and facilitate the prevention of cruelty, neglect or harm to horses and to promote the relief, safety, sanctuary, rescue and welfare of horses in need of care, attention and assistance;
To promote and secure the provision, protection and preservation of rights of way and of access for ridden and driven horses over public roads, highways, footpaths, bridleways, carriageways, public paths and other land.A riding centre in the poorest area of London;http://www.leevalleypark.org.uk/en/content/cms/leisure/activities_and_sport/riding_centre/riding_centre.aspx


USEF objectives;
The USEF is dedicated to uniting the equestrian community, honoring achievement, and serving as guardians of equestrian sport. Since its inception in 1917, the Federation has been dedicated to pursuing excellence and promoting growth, all while providing and maintaining a safe and level playing field for both its equine and human athletes.
The USEF trains, selects, and funds our United States Equestrian Team which consistently wins medals at the highest level of international competition, including the Olympic Games. The USEF also licenses equestrian competitions of all levels across the United States each year.


The US needs an organization whose objective is education; clearly it is not in the job description of the USEF. You cannot expect an industry to flourish when 1.) It is not taken seriously. 2.) The vast majority of participants have no idea of what they are doing.

[YankeeLawyer]

THIS is how people are educated;

http://www.bhs.org.uk/content/Edu-home.asp

I know, you're saying "we know all about that" - but explore their site and take a look at ALL that they do. They were only established in 1947 when horses became athletes instead of workers. In a country smaller than most States there are 3 million riders and a very healthy sport horse industry. There are similar organizations throughout Europe for the promotion of the horse industry. They do a very god job.

Their objectives are;

To promote and advance the education, training and safety of the public in all matters relating to the horse;
To promote the use, breeding, well-being, safety, environment, health and management of the horse for the public benefit;
To promote community participation in healthy recreation involving the horse.
To promote and facilitate the prevention of cruelty, neglect or harm to horses and to promote the relief, safety, sanctuary, rescue and welfare of horses in need of care, attention and assistance;
To promote and secure the provision, protection and preservation of rights of way and of access for ridden and driven horses over public roads, highways, footpaths, bridleways, carriageways, public paths and other land.

Interesting you should mention that as when I hire people to work for me I consider the BHS qualifications, when they have that, to be a huge plus (as I do upper level pony club backgrounds).

What about Team training camps like they used to have in the 80s (and earlier years)? Potential team members could go train for a couple of weeks 2 or 3 times a year at regional training camps. It perhaps would help mitigate the cat-herding problem of people wanting only to train with their personal trainers, etc., and to develop more of a team mentality. Why don't we name A and B teams like they do in Holland, with a number of riders on each, rather than just the 3 or 4 that are selected for a particular important competition? I am starting to think that maybe at any given time there should be 10 A-team and 10 B-team riders who are actively being developed.

[Going4Gold]

Quote from Lars Petersen :



Danish Olympic dressage rider Lars Petersen shared stories and answered questions about the sport of dressage in front of a standing-room only crowd at a recent “Shop Talk” held at the dressage boutique Sho Clothes in Wellington. Petersen answered questions in front of a lively audience that asked questions ranging from what age is best for a horse to start Grand Prix (that depends on the horse) to why European riders seem to be better than Americans. In answer to the question about Europeans dominating the dressage world, Petersen said, “What a lot of Americans lack is discipline. You won’t see that in Europe! If you want to do something really, really well you need to have discipline, no matter what the sport.”

[Tiki]

When a breeder has several youngsters for sale, and has a hard time actually getting them sold, paying bills is difficult.
So it is proposed that when a top foal comes along, you charge a premium price so the other foals can go for less than what we have into them to balance the accounts.

Then the top riders without funds to buy these foals/young horses cannot get the best. So now you are suggesting the we breeders either give away or sell for deeply discounted prices, the best, so that the top riders can have them. Someone posted a couple of years ago that they were looking for a top prospect for an up and coming rider that they were helping to support. I sent them information on one I had. He came from successful FEI competition lines. I gave them a price. I heard back from them that they were VERY intereted in him as he was gorgous, with lots of bling, and had a very, very good performance pedigree. Then they told me that people were offering 'good' horses to them for $2000 t0 $3000 dollars to be with an up and coming rider/trainer to get exposure for themselves. Well, the problem with that is that they buy 3 or 4 or 5 horses for the price of one moderately good one, they train them up - and they're good, but not FEI potential, and then they sell them - with only 1 or 2 years of training in them for $40,000 - $60,000 - JUST BECAUSE they're with an 'up and coming rider/trainer' and you've lost your shirt, giving the horse away in trust. Now, of course, not all prospects work out, but they could have been more careful and selective in buying a prospect and paying a fair price for it and still make money with no regrets from the breeder if it didn't work out. I, as a breeder, just can't afford to do that!

Europe and Britain have 'SYSTEMS' in place to raise young horses, to train young riders and to train young trainers. We live the the world of fast food, drive thru banking take out coffee and breakfast to eat on the drive to work. NO ONE in this country wants to start with lunge lessons. One friend who teaches beginners has a 9yo girl (I think she's that old - she may be quite a bit younger) who started off with up/down lessons who quickly wanted to canter and jump. What a potential liability!

Everyone wants to start off as a trainer without ever being a rider. Someone rides one horse in a 3yo Materiale Class and gets a 74% (thinking that the scores in those classes compare with something like a USEF Training Level test - they do NOT) and immediately wants to take on someone's best youngsters and do the 5YO Young Horse Test with it. NOT!!

My girlfriend bred and raised a horse that Michael Klimke said has true Internation potential. I believe I have one now. People basically want us to give them away and then later they want to sell them (well, not my girlfriend's horse - that person is keeping him) for the moon and the stars.

It's very similar to the Sport Horse Auction scene in this country. Everyone wants a bargain. One poster said she goes to auctions to buy nice horses as cheap as she can, but when she occassionally brings one to auction she wants top dollar.

You can't have it both ways.

The breeding in this country has come so far that European inspectors from most of the European Registries have told us that if you shipped our foals to Germany and put them in the ring with German handlers, next to German bred horses, you could absolutely not tell them apart, but our riders and trainers keep telling us that we are breeding inferior horses and keep going to Europe and bringing back horses that for the most part just didn't work out there. The exception being sponsors with very deep pockets, sponsoring the few really top riders who really know what they are looking for, buying exception horses out from under European riders. Everyone wants a made horse - remember the fast food mentality from the first paragraph? No one wants to put the time in here. No one wants to wait.

When we do get a really nice, US bred horse out there, people still want to low-ball you on the price. You won't cave? - they go to Europe and buy a horse of lesser quality and behavior problems and/or soundness problems and bring it back here and brag it up for a couple of months. Then it's in the back field, lame or out with the trainer to ride because they can't handle it.

Maryanna, I wish I could help you with Prince, but I'm struggling here too. I have a jumper that qualified for the Mid-West League for 6yo Young Jumpers, but I can't afford to send her, and I won't tell you what low offers I've had on her a couple of times. She's not going until the right buyer comes along for her too. I won't sell a horse just to make a sale. I realize that there are no guarantees when you sell a horse, and that the minute you sell it you no longer have control over it, but I breed really nice horses and I want to give them the best chance I can. Two that I have sold have been reported back to me as being absolutely fantastic, but their riders don't like to show. At least they have very good homes.

I have a hunter pony out with a trainer now. She has had about 4 months of training, hacks out safely, has been in 4 shows so far - in each show did one flat class and 2 over fences classes with heights to 2'9". Pony Hunters only DO up to 3' for larges. She has won 12 ribbons so far, including a couple of blues, a fistful of reds and a Reserve Champion. She is really pretty, but she is built like a small horse, rather than "Pony Pretty" and the trainer says that in spite of her record, Pony Parents want Pony Pretty for their children and she may not sell. In one year she will be beating the pants off the ponies but she may not sell????

I just don't know what the answer is here. I haven't found it yet. :confused: Nor does it seem a lot of other top breeders have either.

[Equibrit]

As usual Americans want to gallop before they can walk - first educate your market !

[Alagirl]

I see a couple of problems, and all overshadowed by the major incapability to come to a consensus of some sort that everybody can live with.

1) Europe has a tradition of breeding horses that exceeds the age of the US. Not much you can do there, but that's the way things are (I think Andrew Jackson actually got in on the ground floor with TB breeding tho)
While in Europe the sovereigns of different status had their domains and subjects breed riding horses (cavalry remounts), the Army went out to shoot Mustang stallions and release TBs in the high sierra.

2) Networking. Lots of things get done without a dime changing hands. Many breeders have their rider showing their products for them. Riding clubs are true clubs, memberships etc...some are bigger, some are smaller. Some have a big string of lesson horses or vaulting as step before riding, a very inexpensive way to get kids introduced to horses. And there is support for the club who occupies prime real estate in the middle of town, because even if you don't know a horses arse from his front, it's fun to watch them or pass by the show for some home made cake and coffee...

I don't have much use for folks who want something for nothing. So browbeating a breeder to let go of their product for less than cost so you can look pretty...since it is unlikely that they advertise your farm, forget about it.

BUT: You can get that one good foal into the right hands, your whole breeding operation can up in value. So instead of getting the most you can get for the one super foal have him raise the value for the others. Tough sell, I know.

In short, seems to me a lot of folks (and don't put that shoe on just to be polite ;) ) need to get their collective heads out off their bums and quit hacking on each other and net work better and come up with effective ways to build a base. I know city ordinances and all that jive are in the way, but considering the small base, politics between breeders, trainers and riders, the US is sitting pretty internationally. But then again the collective appreciation is not always a given, I mean the UK has the horses, the networking, the riders, but they just don't seem to like Dressage as much as the jumping (well, the necessary evil to go Xcountry...)

But why Sjef is piping up is still eluding me. He is not considering to move to the US, is he?

[Alagirl]

Oh, and to have success in a judged sport like Dressage, you have to show your face around town. And that is Europe....:lol:

[Equibrit]

But why Sjef is piping up is still eluding me. He is not considering to move to the US, is he?


Didn't you know; American baiting is a sport in Europe.

(over-paid, over-sexed and over here) !

[Alagirl]

So nothing going on this summer and he got bored, got it.

[Happy Feet]

Yankee-
I should clarify a few things! I do agree that that BNT should work more with owners. But my point was why most do not/cannot. I know they don't make 3-5K per month but instead per horse per month, or weekend teaching a clinic. The point was it is expensive to bring along good horses, if the owner cannot take on most of the expenses who exactly will? And if the trainer puts their time and money into someone else's horse, most are afraid that when the going gets tough (and it most always has at least one rough patch!) the owner will elect to take the horse elsewhere... Not a pleasant thing to happen!
No most up and coming riders would have a difficult time making the next Ravel, but that is not the point! First of all there are few next Ravels out there. Second, the only way an up and coming rider is going to get the experience they need to be able to make a Ravel, is to get many horses to learn on and develop! And if one could take a horse and make a Ravel they are no longer Up and coming riders! It's a chicken and egg game.
Yes I know this discussion is about the very top, but unless you develop a large pool of good riders, how are you going to find the very top, many will slip through the cracks. The only way to get the US on the GOLD medal podium isn't with one or two or even just three VERY TOP riders, its by producing very good riders over and over, some on a sort of "B" team, more need to go to Europe and show and just get the idea of US riders getting into the top placing a normal thing.
Maybe because I live in Wellington, where the riding and riders are above average, I have a distorted view of the riders today. But everyday I see beautiful, tactful, educated riders. Liz Austin, Danielle (oh I can't remember her last name - she works with Oded), Lauren Sprieser, Caroline Roffman, kate Poulin, these are just a few that jump to mind! Some may be boardering on not up and coming but none have reached what they can accomplish. Boy do I wish more people would support these riders and others!

[Happy Feet]

Marydell,
I think you are spot on. It comes down to money and many times, on both the riders end, and owners end there is a lack of it. How to solve this issue is difficult! Hope we can find some great way to try to address this! Mostly I think there needs to be a larger commercial interest in dressage (that may never happen - but I do think it could!) which would in turn bring more "outside" revenue in to help owners, riders, trainers, and the uset.
Good luck with Prince! Thanks for sharing your story I think are many owners can share in your dilemma. Maybe they don't have international horses, but maybe just a horse that is more talented then they are as a rider, and struggle with what to do with that horse...
I do think though that Americans are starting to realize the value in American breed horses and that the quality is in many cases as good as Europe - I think as long as the exchange rate is what it is it will give the Americans an Advantage. I do think there are much undeveloped marketing strategies that breeders as a whole need to start coming together to implement.
I know right now, since I can not afford the quality horse I want in a 3-yo or 4-yo or even 2-yo for that matter, I am looking into weanlings. I have been very surprised at the quality I have found! Hats off to the US breeders!

[Tiki]

Well, you can't put it all on the breeders in this country either. The system in Germany is that foal raisers buy the foals for a fair price. They have various ages of foals and they may start them and sell them on for a profit, or they may sell them to young horse starters for a profit. They then go on to an under saddle career and are sold on at various levels, again for a profit, or if they are good enough, they go to young horse trainers where they are shown in the Materiale Classes or the Young Horse Classes and sold on for, usually, a very nice profit. They continue on from their to the S levels or on to PSG, as their ability dictates and everyone makes a nice profit.

Here it is all on the breeders. Almost no one wants a weanling - 2yo as they don't want to pay board on them and then pay a trainer to start them for them. Even 3yo's are difficult to sell - unless to a rider experienced with young, green horses, or the rider has a trainer who can train them up or help they get going.

Once they're solidly under saddle, and doing well (oh, but that means a good show record at 2nd level and absolutely no vet issues whatsoever - huh? there's always almost some little thing that can be found, after all - they are living beings), a cheap price and a lifetime guarantee of soundness and a guarantee that they will make it to GP (for a training level rider), then you are basically giving the horse away as the price many breeders can sell for at that point in time in no way comes close to the costs they have put into it.

Here it is ALL on the breeders, and here we have some of the highest costs around.

[YankeeLawyer]

Yankee-
I should clarify a few things! I do agree that that BNT should work more with owners. But my point was why most do not/cannot. I know they don't make 3-5K per month but instead per horse per month, or weekend teaching a clinic. The point was it is expensive to bring along good horses, if the owner cannot take on most of the expenses who exactly will?

I am not expecting anyone to get / give a free ride here. Just don't price gouge the one owner that actually owns a horse that looks like their best chance at the international arena. Personally, as owner, I assume I would be footing the bill for showing costs. But an additional 3-4K a month for training board is hefty, to say the least.



And if the trainer puts their time and money into someone else's horse, most are afraid that when the going gets tough (and it most always has at least one rough patch!) the owner will elect to take the horse elsewhere... Not a pleasant thing to happen!

Trust works both ways. The owner theoretically is foregoing the chance to sell the horse to the rich ammie who can write a 6 or 7 figure check for it. And the horse could get injured, burnt out, or otherwise ruined while in training. Of course, the riders can maximize the likelihood their clients will stay with them. Choose people who have good reputations for being loyal, treat them right, and get results. And owners should treat their riders well, too.



No most up and coming riders would have a difficult time making the next Ravel, but that is not the point! First of all there are few next Ravels out there.

That is the point, and it is the caliber of horse I am talking about, at least. Well, maybe not Ravel (or Totilas for that matter) per se, but I referred to Ravel as a proxy for truly competitive GP horse, not a local GP schoolmaster type.




Second, the only way an up and coming rider is going to get the experience they need to be able to make a Ravel, is to get many horses to learn on and develop!

I agree, but it is not happening on my once-in-a-lifetime horse and certainly not happening at my considerable expense. And, in my view, it is best learned by a horse that DOES know the ropes, not one that needs PiPa established, etc.



Yes I know this discussion is about the very top, but unless you develop a large pool of good riders, how are you going to find the very top, many will slip through the cracks. The only way to get the US on the GOLD medal podium isn't with one or two or even just three VERY TOP riders, its by producing very good riders over and over, some on a sort of "B" team, more need to go to Europe and show and just get the idea of US riders getting into the top placing a normal thing.

Okay, then let's talk about other types of nice horses, ones that will be competitive in FEI young horses but not GP, ones that will top out at small tour, etc. Are breeders supposed to hang onto these too to give to these up and coming riders, or do we get to sell these to people seeking exactly this type of horse? And it is not cheap to develop and campaign these, either. My point of view on a lot of these things is impacted by the fact that I do ride pretty well, so if I am going to pay someone to ride my horses, or even allow them on my horses, they really need to be significantly better than I am, otherwise I will just ride and show them myself.

I do agree re the A Team / B Team concept, and I think a lot of good would come with such an approach. Among other things, it would create sponsorship opportunities by affirmatively recognizing certain people as rising stars, in greater numbers than the 3 they send to the Olympics.



Maybe because I live in Wellington, where the riding and riders are above average, I have a distorted view of the riders today. But everyday I see beautiful, tactful, educated riders. Liz Austin, Danielle (oh I can't remember her last name - she works with Oded), Lauren Sprieser, Caroline Roffman, kate Poulin, these are just a few that jump to mind! Some may be boardering on not up and coming but none have reached what they can accomplish. Boy do I wish more people would support these riders and others!

I have a house in Wellington and have shown at WEF many times. I am familiar with the scene there. That is not representative of the dressage scene in most parts of the country - that is like going to DAD and saying you can't understand why people are worried about the level of riding at shows, because you can name 5 riders at DAD that were talented. I don't mean this to be snarky, at all. And I do not think what I am saying is even controversial, truly. The level of riding generally at dressage shows is not as high as you see at comparable H/J shows once you get past the top very few dressage riders.

[Marydell]

Yes, Tiki, here in the USA, the burden of the cost of getting the best horse into the right hands seems to fall on us as breeders. Breed them, raise them, start them, show them. Not in all cases, but most.

But I don't think anyone on this thread has said that at all.

No one can do that and stay in business. In fact, everyone should stop and think about the effect the economy will have in 3 yrs-- less young horses at all!! Not every breeder put their mares in foal this year. There were catosptrophic losses of both mares and foals across the country. And Mother Nature has a wicked sence of humor, the ones we loose are usually the best.

I also had to sacrifice a National oppertunity for one of my 4 yr olds. Qualified and invited to the Markel FEI YH Championships. The funds went to Prince instead.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[YankeeLawyer]

I also had to sacrifice a National oppertunity for one of my 4 yr olds. Qualified and invited to the Markel FEI YH Championships. The funds went to Prince instead.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

This is a little bit of a side issue .. but am I correct in my understanding that horse/rider "pairs" qualify for the USEF/Markel championships, so the same rider has to qualify the horse and ride it in the finals?

[Marydell]

No- this is the one instance (I think- would have to read the rules again but Sir Sinclair comes to mind with 2 riders his 6 yr old yr) where you could have another rider at the Championships.
But for Devon and Regionals, it is the pair that has to qualify.
For example, Prince qualified for DAD with Jim but Courtney cannot ride him there unless she re-qualifies him.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[Plantagenet]

YL et. al:

Someone around here made a list of the YH finalists who had gone on the international success. There are a LOT more than you might think.

I do think however there seems to be a disconnect between riders and breeders. I just did ET on my (so far) very successful performance mare. When I spoke to breeders, many seemed to be as worried about what the head would look as how active the hind end would be. I suspect this related to what you were saying before about 'pretty sells.'

Maybe that's the rub: pretty may sell to the AA market, but a serious rider cares about things like collection/extension, not if there's a dish in the face!

[YankeeLawyer]

YL et. al:

Someone around here made a list of the YH finalists who had gone on the international success. There are a LOT more than you might think.

I do think however there seems to be a disconnect between riders and breeders. I just did ET on my (so far) very successful performance mare. When I spoke to breeders, many seemed to be as worried about what the head would look as how active the hind end would be. I suspect this related to what you were saying before about 'pretty sells.'

Maybe that's the rub: pretty may sell to the AA market, but a serious rider cares about things like collection/extension, not if there's a dish in the face!

I agree ....but (and I am ducking here) not all upper level riders know how to evaluate a youngster; many don't, and many don't know anything about bloodlines, either. So while they may very well recognize the difference between the fancy but less athletic one and the powerhouse when they are 3 or 4 and under saddle, they won't necessarily see it in the weanling or gawky yearling, meaning the burden is on the breeder to hang onto the ones that take a more sophisticated eye to appreciate. And when breeders are needing cash, there is not a lot of incentive to breed for that market as opposed to the AA one to which simply pretty will sell, and sell quickly.

[Plantagenet]

excellent point.

no need to duck btw! I think you're exactly right.


sigh...

[torontodressage]

Could this be something to start with ?


http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25

[canyonoak]

<< Could this be something to start with ?>>


Sure--just as soon as you find a U.S. equivalent to BMC that wants to sponsor dressage riders.

[Coreene]

Equibrit is 100% correct re the BHS system, it does a super job in comparison to USEF. What you also need to remember is that sponsorships in Europe are most often by companies that don't own horses at all. They are paying the rider a monthly stipend at minimum; the ones with the company name in front of the horse's are the ones paying even more. And their ROI is more than just a logo on the pad. Giving product for your sponsorship is really small potatoes.

[Southernlawyer]

The owner theoretically is foregoing the chance to sell the horse to the rich ammie who can write a 6 or 7 figure check for it.

Ok, this makes no sense to me at all. I'm assuming from your username that you're a lawyer and maybe I'm doing our profession too much credit here. However. I find it hard to believe that you would seriously turn down a million dollars (seven figures) for a horse (assuming it would go to a good home). So what, if it's a rich ammie? Yes, you might get more publicity if you sold it to Edward Gal, but on the other hand, you might not breed anything of that quality every again either and the money from the sale could fund both you and your breeding program for years. So why not sell it. Maybe step one, should be for you all to decide whether breeding is a hobby for you or a business. If it's a hobby, hang on to your horse. If it's a business, then you're there to make money and seven figures is a lot of money, so factoring in ethics, i.e. don't sell the horse to someone who would mistreat it, sell the horse to to the rich ammie who wants it.

I think one reason warmblood breeders aren't making money is that they're breeding horses with inferior temperments. If your in hand breed show carries with it the risk of getting killed or seriously injured, that's a sure sign that your breeding program is producing horses with unsound minds. Can you train a horse with an unsound mind? Yes, sometimes. Would you want to? Heck no. And the truth is that dressage requires tremendous focus from the horse as well as the ability to relax. If your horse is crazy, the only way it's going to be able to do that is on drugs. So start with temperment and breed something that is not going to get people killed or injured.

[YankeeLawyer]

Ok, this makes no sense to me at all. I'm assuming from your username that you're a lawyer and maybe I'm doing our profession too much credit here. However. I find it hard to believe that you would seriously turn down a million dollars (seven figures) for a horse (assuming it would go to a good home).

I can and have done so in the past. Not because I am rich, but because I don't care that much about money. There are things more important than that in life. But then, you don't know me. I march to my own drummer.



So what, if it's a rich ammie? Yes, you might get more publicity if you sold it to Edward Gal, but on the other hand, you might not breed anything of that quality every again either and the money from the sale could fund both you and your breeding program for years. So why not sell it.

I agree the money could go along way towards .... perhaps never producing anything again that is that good. My personal goal is to produce a Team horse, not to fund, with the sale of my number 1 horse, a business of churning out fancy amateur horses (NOT that there is anything wrong with that, it is just not the signature I want for my efforts). And to clarify, unlike some others have suggested here, I do not think having someone like Edward Gal (whom I admire very much by the way) compete on my horse is going to bring such glory to my program that all of a sudden my foals are going to be blowing out the door at European Auction prices (i.e., high five figures). Not a chance. I think you'd be lucky to get an extra five to ten thousand for a full sibling to that horse Edward is competing for the farm. Seriously. Also, do not assume that the other horses produced suck by comparison or are not marketable or valuable. They can do well, too, we are just talking about different horses, here. And frankly, the horse that is going to win with Edward is not the best mount for the average ammie, assuming that ammie wants to actually ride and win on that horse at any level. Could you imagine Totilas with a training level rider? Maybe hanging onto those front legs for dear life.



Maybe step one, should be for you all to decide whether breeding is a hobby for you or a business. If it's a hobby, hang on to your horse. If it's a business, then you're there to make money and seven figures is a lot of money, so factoring in ethics, i.e. don't sell the horse to someone who would mistreat it, sell the horse to to the rich ammie who wants it.

Thank you for your advice. My strategy is different, and it is good business. Your view, apparently, is that business begins and ends with a check. It does not, in my opinion. Do you want to be a player or a nobody? Why not start with that. There is also something to be said for placing primary importance on one's business reputation and goodwill rather than simply the bottom line. It goes far beyond publicity.




I think one reason warmblood breeders aren't making money is that they're breeding horses with inferior temperments.

WHOA, where did THAT come from? Do you live anywhere near me? You are MORE than welcome to come to my farm and I will happily show you the fire-breathing dragons I have here. Are you kidding me?

I could explain to you the many reasons that a number of breeders with phenomenal horses do not make anywhere near the kind of money they should given the quality they produce. Not a one of them has anything to do with their horses' temperaments. I don't even hear the most finicky *buyers* making that claim.



If your in hand breed show carries with it the risk of getting killed or seriously injured, that's a sure sign that your breeding program is producing horses with unsound minds.

I am actually wondering sincerely if you have any experience raising youngsters, taking them to their first show (often their first time off the property) or even attending breed shows as a spectator. Now personally, I am not a big fan of DSHB for a variety of reasons, mostly because it does not have a lot of relevance to my program. It does offer some very real benefits, though - among these, the opportunity to give youngsters mileage. These are, however, horses, and baby horses at that. And sometimes they might get startled if some unruly brat starts screaming and running in front of them out of nowhere, or some idiot on a bicycle comes whizzing past them in the schooling area, or a tent collapses due to high winds just feet from the baby (and I have seen all of those things happen). You think that your quietest and seasoned hunter wouldn't take a little peek at that? So why would you conclude that baby must be insane and poorly bred based on a situation like that?



Can you train a horse with an unsound mind? Yes, sometimes. Would you want to? Heck no. And the truth is that dressage requires tremendous focus from the horse as well as the ability to relax. If your horse is crazy, the only way it's going to be able to do that is on drugs. So start with temperment and breed something that is not going to get people killed or injured.

All I can say is that I suggest that you go and visit some of the top breeders and see in person what they are producing. I am a bit confused by your position, though. Did you not say that I should sell the top horse - the one with international potential, to the highest ammie bidder? Wouldn't that be a disservice to the ammie, or am I supposed to not care whether it is a suitable match? Because personally I could not and will not sell a horse that I believe is inappropriate for the buyer; I don't care how many zeroes are on that check. I am not in any way suggesting that top horses are nutjobs, but usually they are a bit more than the average ammie can handle or even sit.

[freestyle2music]

<< Could this be something to start with ?>>


Sure--just as soon as you find a U.S. equivalent to BMC that wants to sponsor dressage riders.

Did someone ever ask ?

I have sponsored already 25.000 Euro in USA dressage, but except from Liz Austin and Lauren Spiesser nobody gave me any feedback.

When Marlies van Baalen came to me to ask for sponsoring, she came with books, videos, articles in the media AND a very detailed Powerpoint Presentation about where the benefits for our company could be found, including a tax-deduction plan. She invited me for every competition, arranged hotels, and introduced me to people who became BIG cliënts of our company. She always called me after the competition how it went and send me videos of her ride(s).

Furthermore there are more ways to Rome, my sister rides some young stallions now for an owner who doesn't have money to pay her the usual fee. So she made an arrangment that when these horses are sold she get 50% of the selling-price.

Theo

[slc2]

I'm puzzled as to how selling to a rich amateur instead of a professional trainer would be 'better' for the horse or nobly 'marching to a different drummer'. If the goal is to get a horse into top elite competition, it is the wrong choice. The person who has gotten the horse to the show before will do it again; the person who is feeling his way for the first time is less likely to.

Even the wealthiest ammies have little conception of what it takes a horse to get to the elite levels, especially the mental toughness required of the owner, or the deep pockets (it isn't unusual to pay several hundred thousand to campaign a top horse for one year - imagine paying tht for five or ten years), unless they are the unusual rich ammie who has done this many times, and simply stands back and lets the trainer make the decisions. Their toughest and most crucial decision will be choosing that trainer and rider; it may not be the most likeable or accessible person.

Having a 'great horse' is very, very difficult. The choices an amateur makes to develop his own riding must be and are very, very different from the choices one makes to get a horse to the top. For one thing, very likely, the rich ammie will not be riding the horse in the competition. That's a very hard pill to swallow.

It takes more than that. You have to be willing to give your horse over to someone else. That is not easy.

But in all seriousness, I am having trouble picturing a trainer who pays more than a rich ammie; they are usually looking for bargains, and the horse is sold to the rich ammie because the rich ammie will pay a higher, not a lower price.

In the sense that the horse will get supervised by what is probably a series of trainers while it's with the ammie, instead of one, it's not as good. Ammies don't typically stay with one trainer; the average relationship with a trainer, I would guess, lasts about 12-18 months.

In the sense that the ammie knows less about how to get the horse to success at the highest level it can succeed at, it's not as good.

If the rich ammie is actually a professional owner, there is more chance of success. By this I mean a person who rides himself, but the main point of his horse ownership has been for some years, to get international horses and compete them at the top levels, rather than develop his own riding; rarely the two goals can work as one. Usually they cannot.

I think YankeeLawyer is avoiding discussion of a much more serious issue, which is telling the difference between 'a really nice horse' and an 'international horse'. I have had the experience that many breeders THINK they have a top horse, but they don't. I have over many years, heard many owners complain the Sport Horse evaluation and grading is 'unfair' and 'rigged', while standing there holding a poorly conformed, poorly moving youngster who did not get accepted into their organization of choice. They are furious. They want a word with the judges/evaluators. They are unable to evaluate their horse properly because they either have 'stable blindness' or they can't constantly compare theirs to other better rated youngsters and see the differences (so some of this can be due to Amican distances and subsequent isolation, but when they get to the examination, they should have enough eye to see the difference).

And they are quite often, wrong. In a few cases, they have a slow maturing animal, but the problem with the slow maturing animal is that the slow maturing animal is at an extreme disadvantage in a system where young horses basically, need to mature more quickly. They mature more quickly if they are of a modern type - long legged, compact, light. There are plenty of big, powerful, gorgeous horses who simply can't naturally collect and still retain the top quality freedom of movement.

Re: breeding horses with poor temperament.

One needs to be able to tell the difference between a young horse that has been isolated on the farm and not shown and is now extremely excited and frantic because he is in a different environment, and a horse with a 'bad temperament'. An isolated youngster steps on and bumps into his handler; a youngster with a bad temperament GOES FOR his handler. Not a playful nip, that's normal in an excited horse. I mean goes for. The 'good temperament' horse may still be awful under saddle if he's been isolated at the farm, but he will show moments of brilliant gaits and lots of potential; most sport horse judges are quite able to see the difference.

In fact, as Carl Hester and many top elite trainers and riders have stated over and over and over, the kind of temperament most people like makes a very poor elite horse. Most of the best horses that make the top, are extremely hot, energetic, active and - cheeky. Some are quite tense and are what can be called an 'artist'; if they have the gaits and the potential someone will be willing to get through the tension and develop them.

We have also seen horses that were ruined by improper handling. One breeder insisted her stallion not be disciplined. He got more and more spoiled, and finally pinned someone between him and a wall or ceiling, and the guy wound up in a coma for several weeks. Inexperience is the problem here. The stallion came from a line with excellent, sensitive, intelligent and cooperative temperaments - he was spoiled, and spoiled is very bad for a stallion.

[claire]

Equibrit is 100% correct re the BHS system, it does a super job in comparison to USEF. What you also need to remember is that sponsorships in Europe are most often by companies that don't own horses at all. They are paying the rider a monthly stipend at minimum; the ones with the company name in front of the horse's are the ones paying even more. And their ROI is more than just a logo on the pad. Giving product for your sponsorship is really small potatoes.

This is a most important difference.

And why doesn't the Dressage sport here receive such sponsorship from companies?

[Happy Feet]

Yankee,
Okay if you truly had another Ravel, ie: horse that could win internationally, probably no you won't take a chance on an up and coming rider, i agree with you. I guess I haven't see many Ravel quality horses out there in the wrong hands because a BNT wouldn't take them on for less $$. I guess most of my comments are directed to the larger Nationally/internationally competitive horses but not most likely NOT gold medal winners pool of horses. Ithink we could all go back and forth pointing finger who's responsibility it is to loss money so that a great partnership may flourish. Trainers want to be paid for there services, often don't trust owners/breeders won't yank a horse away at the first smell of big money or when the going gets tough, breeders don't want to take a hit, lose the possible income from selling their very nice horse. We could go round and round. I think it comes down to unless there is more outside help for partnerships to develop and continue, the finger pointing and trepidation will not end.
Since you live and visit in Wellington, I am sure you have seen the quality of riders increase here in the last 5 years. I can't imagine that the only riders who have gotten better are the riders that come here. Those riders, come from different areas of the country, have students, are teaching and hopefully developing better riders. It really makes me sad to hear so much continued nay sayers of the quality of riders. I really think our country is starting to develop a much better riders!

[Marydell]

SLC2-- you bring up a valid point about the ability to tell the difference between a nice horse and a top FEI "prospect". But I don't think YL avoided this, it just has not been addressed so far in this thread.

Education is the key. And let's face it--American breeders are not ,in general, performance competitors.
I have learned this through going to both performance and in hand competitons here and in Germany for many years. Because of having a competiton stallion, I go to every one of his shows and clinics. I take his offspring out to promote them and their sire. I see what bloodlines are at the top of sport. I watch the offspring of the "fashionable" stallions for the years it takes to get into the performance arena.
I can tell you from experience, the only time as a young horse you will see if the horse has FEI talent for ANY sport is at play as a foal. Clean changes on a straight line, pi and pa with the other foals and dam, pirouettes not spins when running, jumping any obsticle in the path not avoiding or spooking over it, a "look at me" attitude and pride of self, self confidence. Some of these things stay and are evident through the growing up phases, but alot go away due to stage of growth. Even attitude can change based on herd dynamics, comfort level in their own skin( remember our own growing pains)
An educated breeder in terms of FEI potential is a rare thing in this country. There are many top breeders who do know and many more who don't. This is one issue that makes finding that special youngster difficult.
And let me tell you-- it is NOT the modern type horse--in general-- who is at the top and staying at the top with very few and notable exceptions. Compare the type for example, of Ravel, Gigalo, Warum Nicht, Brentina, Donnerhall, Relevant, Don Shufro,Salinaro -- to Bonfire, Lingh, Totilas and you will find that more substantial horses have the foundation and bone to carry the muscle nessesary for top sport. We have to ahve a balance of bone, refinement, muscle, suppleness, engine. Not one or the other.
Someone, I think fanniemae on the breeding BB, did a short informal study of the most popular sires of the early 90s( all 4 or 5 were within 1 yr of age of each other) The "S", "W" "D" "R" and "C" lines were part of this. The percentage of offspring of the horses that were "fashionable" S & W competing at PSG or higher was significantly lower than those with less popular sires. What does this tell us- nothing much. But it is an indicator to me personally, that we might be going in the wrong direction with our breeding for the "pretty" and "popular" lines. In fact, I remember a couple of years ago when the first Sandro Hit offspring made it to a CDI in Germany. It made news! on Eurodressage and more. But when the horse failed to deliver, nothing more. There are SH offspring out there competing in the small tour at regional levels, but not at CDI GP to my knowledge. But they sure do well in hand and at the FEI YH.
We are "purpose" breeding these days. Meaning that the young horses we are producing are built for the job. They find it physically easy to do what we want and they attain competency at the top of their sport at earlier ages. BUT- here is another of my soapboxes- we are competing them at those levels, years too early! Again, with a few exceptions, those young GP horses are very talented and they do the job. But if injured, those injuries are career ending. They are never the same afterwards. That is becasue although the horse is built to do the job and looks mature, even offers the movements with ease, his bones, tendons and ligaments have not had the time to mature enough to have the strength to stand up to the rigors of what we ask. Growth and maturity are two different issues with a body.
You can go to all the inspections and breed shows you want, but that is one moment in one day--not a true indicator of talent.

The making of a prospect into a top international competitor is years and $$$$ and time and $$$$ and expertise and $$$$ and a lot of good luck- the right rider/trainer/owner with the right connections at the right time, and no injuries along the way. If we rely on our breed registries, they will point us at those "fashionable" lines. After all these are the horses they are licensing and giving the in hand wins to. This is not FEI talent IMHO. For example- Don Principe was not licensed as a 2 and 1/2 yr old- not nice enough( not mature enough is better I think). He had to prove himself through the 70 day testing and then at age 4 was represented and licensed.

See here is the catch 22-we all agree that the starting and education of a young horse is paramount to future sucess, right? Getting these young horses into the right hands form the very beginning is important. So how do we identify FEI talent when it is usually not evident to most owners until the horse is well under saddle?( not talking the FEI YH tests here) For the person who said there are top horses from the FEI YH-- there are always exceptions, it is the percentages that show the true story. How many are on the International stage at GP, even if only at CDN levels?

What I have found, and I am very lucky in this regard, is that having "I" & "O" judges and clinicians here helps. They look at at my foals at playing at liberty, out in the fields for about a half hour or more,and tell me what they see and like. So I know when I tell someone that a foal has FEI potential, I am not being "barn blind". This has been my solution to knowing the right foals and youngsters to "chanel" into the right hands. But those "right" hands want nothing to do with my youngsters. They would rather have those imports or those popular lines as thy rationalize that they can resell for a profit if the horse does not work out.

It is, again, IMO, one of the reasons we do not have enough promising horses here in this country for those top riders. They exsist here, but are ignored for the most part.

Maryanna Haymon
www,marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[canyonoak]

This is a really great discussion. I hope that in the not-too-distant-future, we can look back and recognize that this has been an IMPORTANT discussion.

The U.S. does not have dressage as a business sport.
This means--there is no cadre of riders/farms devoted to developing young talent for performance testing, stallion licensing, etc, as there is in Europe.

While many of the top sport riders in Holland/Germany are CAPABLE of starting young horses, most of them prefer to get on and train when the horse is both mature enough to handle serious training AND has a solid foundation which (hopefully) has revealed the talent/potential for collection, etc.

But saying--the next step is to create a cadre of riders/farms etc.--that is not the answer or any answer.

The next step HAS TO BE some kind of organizational shift. There is power in numbers, including the numbers of serious breeders, riders,etc. And it all gets piffled away in localization, regionalism, individual farms, etc. Not that each of those steps is not key,because they all are.

But the body has no head.

Everything gets discussed endlessly--and then goes down the drain, as there is no system set up to implement excellent ideas.

SFAIK, Holland looked at the German model, then tweaked it so it worked for them.

Is there no way to look at the existing successful models and tweak them so it works here in the US?

Yes, I know--distance, size, etc etc. But that is just a reality, not a stopping point. There must be a way to have regional and local powers be able to 'meet' via modern media and figure out how to get over the next hurdle.


To get in touch with potential sponsors who would offer funds if they can be matched elsewhere and actually accomplish something...

etc etc. (and yes sure, the devil is in the details of that "etc")

[Fixerupper]

I believe that it is more the North American 'independent' philosophy/mindset. Neither riders nor breeders would be willing to conform to such stringent parameters as are present in the Dutch and German systems. It is why we are all over the map figuratively as well as geographically....

[Coreene]

Fixer, and that is why until things change the US success are going to be nothing compared to countries that have a system in place that works, that has worked for years and that continues to work moving forward. Wanna see the future international dressage stars? Look to the European Pony, Junior and Young Rider champions. You'll also see the work ethic that, sadly, we don't see enough here. All part of the systems in place to produce results.

[YankeeLawyer]

I think YankeeLawyer is avoiding discussion of a much more serious issue, which is telling the difference between 'a really nice horse' and an 'international horse'. I have had the experience that many breeders THINK they have a top horse, but they don't. I have over many years, heard many owners complain the Sport Horse evaluation and grading is 'unfair' and 'rigged', while standing there holding a poorly conformed, poorly moving youngster who did not get accepted into their organization of choice. They are furious. They want a word with the judges/evaluators. They are unable to evaluate their horse properly because they either have 'stable blindness' or they can't constantly compare theirs to other better rated youngsters and see the differences (so some of this can be due to Amican distances and subsequent isolation, but when they get to the examination, they should have enough eye to see the difference).


I believe I mentioned several pages back that many people lack the ability to evaluate a horse (perhaps I was not sufficiently clear - that applies to breeders as well as potential clients). I also did mention that I am not sure that even some of the top breeders have an understanding of what a true international horse looks like, or what that requires physically and mentally. And I mentioned that I have some concern that the directions the registries are taking, predominately, is moving farther away from producing elite horses, and that there is a disparity between what appeals to buyers who claim they are looking for an FEI prospect and what actually will do that job.

[Alagirl]

The U.S. does not have dressage as a business sport.
This means--there is no cadre of riders/farms devoted to developing young talent for performance testing, stallion licensing, etc, as there is in Europe.



Well, 'Dressage' is how everybody starts out. No short stirrups, w/t classes...you ride solo, you get your basics in Dressage. So it's not so much of an alien beast. It just is. The rest evolved from there.

[Coreene]

Well, 'Dressage' is how everybody starts out. No short stirrups, w/t classes...you ride solo, you get your basics in Dressage. So it's not so much of an alien beast. It just is. The rest evolved from there.Well, there are actually WT tests, and the system in place in Germany, Holland etc isn't brain surgery.

London gets the 2012 Olympics; it is awarded to that city a few years back. Britain already has a plan in place to make sure that the British dressage riders are going to do damn good at those Games.

What do we have? And I do not mean that as in what do we actually have going. But what do we have as a long-term plan that is actually going to work? Right now, nada. Nada. Nada.

For 10 years on this BB I've been saying that US riders need to look very, very closely at the ROI that a Dutch or German rider offers its sponsor. And yet here it seems to be more about What Can You Do For Me and never the reverse. It's not about a logo on a saddle pad.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I believe I mentioned several pages back that many people lack the ability to evaluate a horse (perhaps I was not sufficiently clear - that applies to breeders as well as potential clients). I also did mention that I am not sure that even some of the top breeders have an understanding of what a true international horse looks like, or what that requires physically and mentally. And I mentioned that I have some concern that the directions the registries are taking, predominately, is moving farther away from producing elite horses, and that there is a disparity between what appeals to buyers who claim they are looking for an FEI prospect and what actually will do that job.

But I am not at all certain that that the bread and butter of a breeder's business comes from true FEI prospects. The overwhelming majority of buyers are going to be adult amateurs and the overwhelming majority of those adult amateurs are looking for a horse that is "amateur friendly", i.e., not overly sensitive or reactive in temperament and that has gaits that are very easy to sit.

So if I were a breeder, I am not so sure that I would concentrate on trying to breed for a very tiny, elite group of professional riders. Maybe you would have a million dollar sale (although this is not likely when FEI competitors are not shopping in the US) but the odds are very much against it happening, and you have to sell horses to stay in business. So you have to breed amateur friendly horses to stay alive.

[Marydell]

Nine out of ten horses bred for the top of sport WILL fall short for one reason or another. So if we don't breed for the very best, there will be even fewer prospects than there are now.

There is a way to "selectively" breed for the amatuer and still get that top prospect. Breed to the lines known for ridability such as the "D" and "R". Select stallions and mares that have performed to the GP level or in the case of mares, have a sire that has. Put two lines togehter with a proven performance history at GP with ridability. Then hope you get the indefinable and very special "something" that makes one stand out. The rest will be excellent horses for the rest of the market.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[Alagirl]

Well, there are actually WT tests, and the system in place in Germany, Holland etc isn't brain surgery.

London gets the 2012 Olympics; it is awarded to that city a few years back. Britain already has a plan in place to make sure that the British dressage riders are going to do damn good at those Games.

What do we have? And I do not mean that as in what do we actually have going. But what do we have as a long-term plan that is actually going to work? Right now, nada. Nada. Nada.

For 10 years on this BB I've been saying that US riders need to look very, very closely at the ROI that a Dutch or German rider offers its sponsor. And yet here it seems to be more about What Can You Do For Me and never the reverse. It's not about a logo on a saddle pad.


Exactly.

[slc2]

You're right Yankee Lawyer, I mixed up whose post that was. You did mention it, I got a little more time and reread your posts on this thread.

Unfortunately I think stable blindness is a common afflication.

[YankeeLawyer]

You're right Yankee Lawyer, I mixed up whose post that was. You did mention it, I got a little more time and reread your posts on this thread.

No - my fault. That post was looooong. : )

[slc2]

Long posts are good, LOL.

I hope you write however much you like on the subject...lots of really interesting ideas.

[Fixerupper]

You'll also see the work ethic that, sadly, we don't see enough here. All part of the systems in place to produce results.

I don't even think that it is 'work ethic' ... very many (not all...) work very hard going down a dead end road, and unfortunately pass it on to their students. The States and Canada both have had exposure to excellent European trainers but they treat it like a buffet...I'll have a bit of this and this but I'm not trying that....because here we don't do that.

The other issue is that in NA is that top riders are expected to be top trainers and do everything themselves without help...!?! not so much in Europe..

Unfortunately it comes back to the 'national' mindset.

On the upside...I think North Americans have a better horse 'health care system' (isn't that ironic?) than Europe, so...in the event that we get a top horse...they have a better chance of long term survival...:)

[Southernlawyer]

Most of the best horses that make the top, are extremely hot, energetic, active and - cheeky. Some are quite tense and are what can be called an 'artist'; if they have the gaits and the potential someone will be willing to get through the tension and develop them.

Maybe the confusion lies in what we're talking about when we say "adult ammie." To me the horse you describe is a horse for a good, sensitive, calm rider and a good rider is:

1. Someone who can ride a horse with big gaits walk, trot (post, sit), canter on the lunge line without reins or stirrups and do the basic exercises, i.e. touch the horse's poll, touch his tail, touch your right toe with your left hand etc.
2. Someone whose aids can work independently of each other, i.e. just because I've used my right leg, doesn't mean I pull back with my right hand etc.
3. And of course, someone who has a basic education in what the aids are and when to use them

and a sensitive rider is:

1. Someone who can adjust their riding to the horse, i.e. who doesn't insist on driving the sports car the same way they'd drive the pickup truck and who can make adjustments based on what the horse is doing at the moment

and a calm rider is:

1. Someone who is not going to be phased or lose their temper at the horse for speeding up, throwing its head, whatever and who can calmly ride through whatever the horse is doing and communicate to the horse, ok but here's what we're doing and it's really fine, don't you think?

So if what you mean by an "adult ammie" is a rider who is basically a beginner, or a rider who has a good seat and leg but is insensitive or hot headed, then I would agree, you should ethically not sell a horse with that kind of temperament to an adult ammie.

However, that's not what I meant by a horse with a bad temperament. My horse is hot and sensitive and has a huge engine and will tell on you if you don't ride him right, by speeding up, getting tense, twisting his body and flinging his head. That's a hot horse and for the wrong rider a hot horse can quickly become unrideable. However, a hot horse doesn't flip over backwards on you, break your nose from rearing, buck to get you off and give you a collection of fractures and breaks to rival a bronco rider. A horse that does those things is a horse with a bad temperament and may not be hot or sensitive at all.

I'm not saying every American bred warmblood has a bad temperament, but I've seen a lot of them and heard about more and I don't remember seeing any when I was in Germany. In fact the trainer I rode with there told me that the horses I was describing were poorly bred, because warmbloods were supposed to have good temperaments and be safe. So again, step number one to any successful breeding business, I would think would be to develop a reputation for breeding horses that are mentally as well as physically sound.

Think about it this way. What if Germans starting breeding Quarter Horses and managed to breed them so that a fair percentage of them moved as well as American bred Quarter Horses but a fairly large percentage of the German Quarter Horses had bad temperaments. If you were an FEI reiner, where would you shop for your next reining horse and what would you think of the quality of German Quarter Horses?

None of which is to say that anyone on this board is breeding bad tempered horses, because I honestly don't know who you all are in real life and therefore cannot judge. I'm sure you all are good and responsible breeders. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't irresponsible breeders out there and that responsible breeders and breed organizations don't have a responsibility to cull bad tempered horses out of the breeding stock, i.e. don't approve a bad tempered horse, don't breed to one and don't market or promote one and if a horse is bad tempered, don't register or approve its offspring.

[YankeeLawyer]

Southerlawyer, clearly I have no idea what you have or have not witnessed, but I have to say that this observation astonishes me:



However, a hot horse doesn't flip over backwards on you, break your nose from rearing, buck to get you off and give you a collection of fractures and breaks to rival a bronco rider. A horse that does those things is a horse with a bad temperament and may not be hot or sensitive at all.

Okay, that part I agree with 100% .....
but the below??

I'm not saying every American bred warmblood has a bad temperament, but I've seen a lot of them and heard about more and I don't remember seeing any when I was in Germany. In fact the trainer I rode with there told me that the horses I was describing were poorly bred, because warmbloods were supposed to have good temperaments and be safe. So again, step number one to any successful breeding business, I would think would be to develop a reputation for breeding horses that are mentally as well as physically sound.

Okay, you need to get yourself up a bit closer to the Mason-Dixon and I can point you to numerous WB farms with wonderful horses. In fact, I could probably point you to a number in your area. If in fact you have seen a bunch of loony toon WBs, I submit that those are not reflective of a systemic problem in WB breeding in this country. They are either that way because they were not raised and trained properly (now that *is* a problem in this country) or they are exceptional cases of poor breeding or some combination of the above. I do agree that the quality of breeding programs varies a lot - but that is true whether the breeding focus is WB, QH, Arab, TB, whatever.

[slc2]

"lots of American bred warmbloods with bad temperaments"

There are American bred warmbloods with wonderful temperaments. I bought mine from an American breeder and he has been the most generous, pleasant, cooperative and safe animal I ever sat on.

I see very few warmbloods that have 'bad temperaments'.

Rears? Bucks? Shies? Bully? Sounds like bad training to me. And bad riding. Not an innately bad temperament. Even the nicest horse can rapidly be spoiled by poor, inconsistent riding. It takes surprisingly little time.

To me, a 'poor temperament' is a horse that even a professional with tons of experience in dressage would have a lot of trouble training. But the 'worst temperament' I ever saw was on a horse whose sire and dam sire have a very big reputation for producing exceptionally good temperaments, and I am quite sure all the 'bad behavior' I saw was actually the result of years of incorrect riding and training.

In my experience, professionals with years of experience are not particularly put off by what amateurs refer to as 'bad temperament'. They usually think they can deal with it, or that the movement, natural balance and engine of the horse make the more difficult temperament worth dealing with.

Someone who doesn't know how to ride them, may conclude they have 'poor temperaments' when actually they're talking about a horse that has been incorrectly trained and ridden.

If a European dealer told you any American warmbloods that someone has trouble riding are 'bad warmbloods' or 'warmbloods with poor temperament', sounds like he was trying hard to be sure you buy a horse from him or one of his friends. There are plenty of American breeders selling warmbloods with nice temperaments.

American warmblood breeders are generally not familiar with the top levels of dressage sport and many are not even aimed at the top level, very often because they don't have the funds to hire that calibre rider. Most are breeding what they know and what 85% of the American market wants - ultimately less 'collectible' horses, attractive, safe to ride, etc. The number of breeders in the USA who are turning out international after international prospect is low.

"a good rider is"

A rider good enough to train and ride a really top prospect up thru all the FEI levels, to an international standard, is much more than this.

"a sensitive rider is"

A rider good enough to train and ride a really top prospect up thru all the FEI levels, to an internationals standard, is much more than this.

There are many misconceptions about 'sensitive riders' - if the rider is only sensitive, it won't get him far in training to an international standard. He must also be knowledgeable and have years of experience training FEI horses to a very demanding standard, and he will take those simple basics to incredible lengths to improve his skills, he must have technical knowledge and know what to do without thinking about it (things happen fast at the higher levels), he must be willing to challenge himself and his horse.

"an amateur is a beginner"

I don't think that most amateurs are necessarily beginners at all. Many of them have been involved in dressage for decades, and wouldn't by any stretch be called beginners. Many of them event and have a very secure seat jumping and galloping, as well as for dressage. But most of them can train a youngster to Training level or first level, and most American amateurs compete at training and first level, and most will never ride at a higher level. Most professionals, paid to instruct students and train horses, also compete at those levels, and no higher.

[Alagirl]

I'm not saying every American bred warmblood has a bad temperament, but I've seen a lot of them and heard about more and I don't remember seeing any when I was in Germany. In fact the trainer I rode with there told me that the horses I was describing were poorly bred, because warmbloods were supposed to have good temperaments and be safe. So again, step number one to any successful breeding business, I would think would be to develop a reputation for breeding horses that are mentally as well as physically sound.

Bwahahahaha, of course you don't find too many bad tempered horses around in Germany. WBs are not a trophy in itself, there are plenty around, so if it is bad tempered it will not be around long (can you spell Salami) :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[slc2]

No need to turn it into salami. Sell it to America.

Seriously, for quite some time, this was not so far from the truth. An imported warmblood had something of a Magikal Kwality.

I disagree that it is so easy to breed for both the amateur and the international market; though by default what happens sometimes is the less hot and reactive types with lesser gaits and balance, wind up going to the amateurs and the breeder keeps trying to produce that really exceptional international prospect. Hopefully not too many extremely hot with lesser gaits or extremely naughty and screw loose with less than stellar balance or gaits, goes to teh amateurs, LOL, but it does sometimes happen.

In general, though, intentionally doing that, I really don't think that's so easy. An amateur horse is a fundamentally different beast. Of course some horses can be 'jazzerated' (a neologism from slc2's mom) and get geared up to be very finely tuned, forward and very, very fit when kept in that kind of program, and when left less fit and less tuned up, can be a suitable amateur mount to some extent.

[DownYonder]

Re: getting international quality horses into the hands of top riders - I have spoken to several international level BNRs over the past few years about this topic, and they have pretty much told me that if a horse is TRUE international quality and has been shown at all on the big tour, they very likely already know about the horse, and will in many cases inquire with the owner or current rider if they want it in their program. IOW, they don't sit around waiting and hoping the owner comes to them. Some BNRs are even willing to make "deals" with the owner (i.e., discounted rates, etc.), for the opportunity to show the horse. They generally don't go out of their way to pursue horses that are not yet ready to compete on the big tour, or horses that may be somewhat competitive at GP but would struggle to hold their own with true international stars.

Cooperation between owners and riders is a two-way street, however. Some riders/trainers want full control of the horse, with no input from the owner, and owners who want their horse in that rider's program have to learn to sit back and "go with the flow", so to speak. OTOH, riders need to remember that the owner is the customer and is the one who pays the bills. Owners and riders hoping to sell the horse also need to make sure it is priced fairly. Even top BNRs aren't going to have a lot of clients willing to pay $100,000 for a 6 y/o with little show mileage, no matter how fancy the horse is.

And I agree that people wanting to breed talented horses that even amateurs can ride need to carefully consider the bloodlines with proven rideability. As Marydell pointed out, these are often the Donnerhall and Rubinstein lines, but most buyers are not educated enough to understand the importance of bloodlines and tend to get dazzled instead by the fancy, flashy "big movers" from other bloodlines - the Sandro Hits, the Jazz's, the Quaterbacks, the Balous, etc. This is often compounded by those buyers' trainers, who even if they have a passing knowledge of bloodlines, discount that aspect when helping their client choose between the correct, quiet, Donnerhall line horse that maybe isn't a huge mover, and the fancy, leg-flinging Jazz or Sandro Hit offspring.

Education per the British system would help somewhat in giving riders and trainers better knowledge and skills, etc., but I believe it would be only marginally successful in the U.S. as far as turning this nation into a bunch of dressage lovers. People with no interest in horses are still going to prefer baseball-basketball-football-golf-NASCAR, etc., and many horse people are still going to prefer jumping, reining, racking, etc. Dressage is just way too boring, way too cerebral, and way too subjective for most people.

[Marydell]

Trying to put the thread back on track.

A discussion of what is a an amatuer vs a top horse is not addressing putting the right horse in the right hands. Breeding for one type vs another is not as well. It is the details, of course, but not a plan with a goal.

Here are some thoughts-- feel free to cut them up or embelish. This is just random midnight thinking. Have no reason to believe this is at all possible.

Let us say that the USEF can convince a sponsor/s to pool some funds for the aquisition of foals to develop into top candidates for dressage. Develop a foundation or trust. Say 10 foals max per yr, if that many could be found and bought. American bred only as import is expensive and risky. Also placing the foals would not be cost effective. Entice the American breeder with the best to sell with the offer of having their name on the show records as one of the owners for as long as the foundation owns the horse.

Say there is an established price per foal. One that is affordable but fair to the breeder. Again, just throwing out a number--$12,000 to $15,000 per foal.
Then a stipend to the breeder( if they are so inclined and have space) for raising that foal to the spring of the 3 yr old yr. Again, for argument's sake, about $200 per month to cover board and farrier. Some places in the country would be more and others less. A sponsor could supply the USEF with product, vaccines and wormers to be given to the raisers. This part of the program would be similar to the European colt selection for licensing. The best are bought as foals and raised for the goal of presentation at age 2 and 1/2.

A committee of three people- I would suggest folks who have ridden GP, and are breeders themselves, would pick these prospects from personal visits requiring some time be spent observing the foals(30 minutes, not just 5) . I would suggest the following- Hilda Gurney, Ann Gribbons and Scott Hassler. They have many yrs of experience breeding, international GP and judging backgrounds. Some have even produced horses themselves that have top level credentials.


Then at age three, these youngsters are sent to a trainer who will back them and ride them up to age 6 or 7. USEF would pay the board and still include the products for care--wormers and vaccines. An insurance policy with major medical to cover any other issues. One or two horses per trainer at any given time, trainer not paid (the honor of having the USEF place a horse with a young trainer should bring business to them ) but show expenses- ie: Entry fees and USDF/USEF fees covered. Class fees and stabling responsibility of trainer. These classes should be either the FEI YH or 1stlevel and above.

I can think of at least 5 or 6 young people who are very good with young horses that are on the east coast. I am sure there are at least that many in the midwest and west. I do not know if they back horses, but they ride youngsters well and have trained one up to at least 3 rd level before. Some are YR and some, like the one I use, Brendan Curtis, have found recognition through other means - Robert Dover's TV program. This is where another committee can have input-like Robert, perhaps some of the upper level judges who see YR alot. Hopefully something similar in type if not reality to the German Reitschulle (riding school or club). Show records, personal visits or clinics to keep an eye on the progress and quality of the horses in the program. Annual evaluations of all program horses.

In the early fall of the 6 yr old year, all horses from that year should be brought to one place and evaluated. The best of these (the statistics say only 1 out of 10 will be that good)get offered for sale for reasonable money to long listed riders or their sponsors. The rest offered to the public for a good price -- or even auction them as these horses will have a show record and the backing of our NGB. The training will have been supervised and somewhat public. A pestigious beginning for a horse at auction.

This program promotes both the idea of a foundation of great horses for top riders and the American breeder.

What do you folks think?

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[slc2]

But it sounds great.

[Marydell]

Like I said, just random thoughts.

It would take about $150,000 to buy 10 foals each year and an additional $22,000 in board.
Airfare/hotel to get the committe to several areas of the country.

If you get a sponsor such as Fort Dodge to donate the vaccines to the local vet, and supply the wormer, no cost to the foundation.
Then a small ins policy, say $5,000 with MM is about $400 per year.

Say they pay $12,000 for a foal, plus $2,200 for the board, and $400 for ins. The initial cost is $14,600 for a top quality foal. $2,600 per year until age 3. So a total of $19,800 for a top 3 yr old. No too bad.

I cannot begin to guess at what board at age 3 will cost as that varies so much even in the same state.

Another point is that in 7 years, some, if not more than, the original funds will be put back into the program with the sale of those first ten prospects.

But one of the issues about this country is our independant way of doing things. This type of program stillpresserves that concept. Again, the key to all of this is the initial $$ sponsor or USEF

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[Plantagenet]

the German Hanoverian Verband's information gathering tour re: young horse 'raisers'?

Joerg Wegener (poor, sweet fellow!) drove all over the USA last year supposedly gathering information and talking to folks about the possibility of establishing a 'system' for raising young horses here. At least I think that's what he was doing...by the time he got to our place he was a little glassy-eyed from all the driving. I think he was a little shellshocked at just how BIG the USA really is!

Does anyone know if I understood correctly what he was doing and if anything came of it?

[Alagirl]

Trying to put the thread back on track.

A discussion of what is a an amatuer vs a top horse is not addressing putting the right horse in the right hands. Breeding for one type vs another is not as well. It is the details, of course, but not a plan with a goal.

Here are some thoughts-- feel free to cut them up or embelish. This is just random midnight thinking. Have no reason to believe this is at all possible.

Let us say that the USEF can convince a sponsor/s to pool some funds for the aquisition of foals to develop into top candidates for dressage. Develop a foundation or trust. Say 10 foals max per yr, if that many could be found and bought. American bred only as import is expensive and risky. Also placing the foals would not be cost effective. Entice the American breeder with the best to sell with the offer of having their name on the show records as one of the owners for as long as the foundation owns the horse.

Say there is an established price per foal. One that is affordable but fair to the breeder. Again, just throwing out a number--$12,000 to $15,000 per foal.
Then a stipend to the breeder( if they are so inclined and have space) for raising that foal to the spring of the 3 yr old yr. Again, for argument's sake, about $200 per month to cover board and farrier. Some places in the country would be more and others less. A sponsor could supply the USEF with product, vaccines and wormers to be given to the raisers. This part of the program would be similar to the European colt selection for licensing. The best are bought as foals and raised for the goal of presentation at age 2 and 1/2.

A committee of three people- I would suggest folks who have ridden GP, and are breeders themselves, would pick these prospects from personal visits requiring some time be spent observing the foals(30 minutes, not just 5) . I would suggest the following- Hilda Gurney, Ann Gribbons and Scott Hassler. They have many yrs of experience breeding, international GP and judging backgrounds. Some have even produced horses themselves that have top level credentials.


Then at age three, these youngsters are sent to a trainer who will back them and ride them up to age 6 or 7. USEF would pay the board and still include the products for care--wormers and vaccines. An insurance policy with major medical to cover any other issues. One or two horses per trainer at any given time, trainer not paid (the honor of having the USEF place a horse with a young trainer should bring business to them ) but show expenses- ie: Entry fees and USDF/USEF fees covered. Class fees and stabling responsibility of trainer. These classes should be either the FEI YH or 1stlevel and above.

I can think of at least 5 or 6 young people who are very good with young horses that are on the east coast. I am sure there are at least that many in the midwest and west. I do not know if they back horses, but they ride youngsters well and have trained one up to at least 3 rd level before. Some are YR and some, like the one I use, Brendan Curtis, have found recognition through other means - Robert Dover's TV program. This is where another committee can have input-like Robert, perhaps some of the upper level judges who see YR alot. Hopefully something similar in type if not reality to the German Reitschulle (riding school or club). Show records, personal visits or clinics to keep an eye on the progress and quality of the horses in the program. Annual evaluations of all program horses.

In the early fall of the 6 yr old year, all horses from that year should be brought to one place and evaluated. The best of these (the statistics say only 1 out of 10 will be that good)get offered for sale for reasonable money to long listed riders or their sponsors. The rest offered to the public for a good price -- or even auction them as these horses will have a show record and the backing of our NGB. The training will have been supervised and somewhat public. A pestigious beginning for a horse at auction.

This program promotes both the idea of a foundation of great horses for top riders and the American breeder.

What do you folks think?

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com (http://www.marydellfarm.com)
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

Lot's of good stuff. some aspects would need some more tweaking...

I am not sure, 15k for a foal?

Well, I was in Germany a couple of weeks back, and we took a trip through the northern country side. During drive time we had lots of rain, and we saw a lot of horses turned out, and honestly, not a run in in site.

"they don't mess around a lot with their horses' my dad mentioned. he is retired Agricultural guy, and raised on a big farm with horses and riding...

They wean their babies and throw them in a big barn with a bail of hay and turn out.

Not everybody can do it like Paul Schockemoehle: having a couple of vets doing nothing but ET, one vet doing nothing but caring for the newborns and the great one himself coming by every week during foaling season and checking out the jumper foals (got another guy doing likewise for the Dressage foals)

Anyhow, as I recall Ahlarich was bought as a youngster at auction for I think 40k Marks back then, buy an organization to get Klimke into the saddle...

Thankfully foal raising needs little infrastructure so it can be done more cheaply. Lots of space to roam and buddies to play with...

Just one teeny problem: Getting people to agree on a logical approach and to actually work together.

[canyonoak]

Yes, we need to get all the special-interest parts of horse sport together.

We have so many organizations and groups and committees and yet no way to get them all to work together to improve horse sport in the U.S.

ANd to improve the lot of those who love horse sport in the U.S.

This is not rocket science, this is not brain surgery. This is just common sense.

What we have now is everyone looking no further than their own interest.

And by that, I diont mean the board members, I mean our US organizations.

[Home Again Farm]

the German Hanoverian Verband's information gathering tour re: young horse 'raisers'?

Joerg Wegener (poor, sweet fellow!) drove all over the USA last year supposedly gathering information and talking to folks about the possibility of establishing a 'system' for raising young horses here. At least I think that's what he was doing...by the time he got to our place he was a little glassy-eyed from all the driving. I think he was a little shellshocked at just how BIG the USA really is!

Does anyone know if I understood correctly what he was doing and if anything came of it?

The tour was to identify not just trainers, but also mare stations, and many other things. There is now a list of certified facilities and trainers which is supposed to be expanded as more people/ facilities apply. See the link below:

http://hanoverian.org/Training/training.shtml

I was one of the folks who helped Joerg get around and I agree that his eyes were wide with shock over the hugeness of the country. He was a very positive and enthusiastic fellow, despite the culture shock.

This has been a fascinating discussion. I agree that the best horses need to go to the best riders. I also agree with YL that getting our very best horses into the right hands can be a challenge.

Marydell, your suggestions are fascinating and show quite a lot of promise. :yes:

[Alagirl]

Yes, we need to get all the special-interest parts of horse sport together.

We have so many organizations and groups and committees and yet no way to get them all to work together to improve horse sport in the U.S.

ANd to improve the lot of those who love horse sport in the U.S.

This is not rocket science, this is not brain surgery. This is just common sense.

What we have now is everyone looking no further than their own interest.

And by that, I diont mean the board members, I mean our US organizations.
Time to form a new organization? International riders booster club?

[YankeeLawyer]

Oooh, I love Marydell's idea. I think that is definitely worthy of developing.

[YankeeLawyer]

Lot's of good stuff. some aspects would need some more tweaking...

I am not sure, 15k for a foal?

Well, I was in Germany a couple of weeks back, and we took a trip through the northern country side. During drive time we had lots of rain, and we saw a lot of horses turned out, and honestly, not a run in in site.

"they don't mess around a lot with their horses' my dad mentioned. he is retired Agricultural guy, and raised on a big farm with horses and riding...



Alagirl, in *this* economy I am getting offers between 15K and 19K for foals, and just turned down 19K for my filly as I have decided to keep her to develop. If a program such as that suggested by Marydell is going to be viable, you cannot rape the breeders. Remember, too, that these presumably would be the very best 10 foals available in a given year, and a sale price of 12K to 15K is already somewhat discounted (but the program offers benefits to the breeder, too).

Ironic that you did not see any run-ins in Germany; as I recall, the AHS willl not approve a young horse raising facility in this country unless there is a run-in in every field (regardless of the climate or geographic location of the farm).

[Alagirl]

Alagirl, in *this* economy I am getting offers between 15K and 19K for foals, and just turned down 19K for my filly as I have decided to keep her to develop. If a program such as that suggested by Marydell is going to be viable, you cannot rape the breeders. Remember, too, that these presumably would be the very best 10 foals available in a given year, and a sale price of 12K to 15K is already somewhat discounted (but the program offers benefits to the breeder, too).

Ironic that you did not see any run-ins in Germany; as I recall, the AHS willl not approve a young horse raising facility in this country unless there is a run-in in every field (regardless of the climate or geographic location of the farm).


Well, I am not up to speed in horse breeding cost. Top pony demands top dollar.

Those fields did not belong to foal raisers, also part of the equation: the farmer who has a few horses in his barn, as hobby/side gig to regular farming. But there is a deep pleasure in seeing a foal sleeping stretched out in the sun :)

Just one thing I am curious about: What's the Hannover Verband wanting to do with its American breeders?

Their marketing is superb, lots to be learned from them! But the US program needs to be non registry specific.

[YankeeLawyer]

Did someone ever ask ?

I have sponsored already 25.000 Euro in USA dressage, but except from Liz Austin and Lauren Spiesser nobody gave me any feedback.

When Marlies van Baalen came to me to ask for sponsoring, she came with books, videos, articles in the media AND a very detailed Powerpoint Presentation about where the benefits for our company could be found, including a tax-deduction plan. She invited me for every competition, arranged hotels, and introduced me to people who became BIG cliënts of our company. She always called me after the competition how it went and send me videos of her ride(s).

Theo

I think Theo's point is an important one, and unfortunately got a little lost amongst the lively debate. Sponsorships - whether for a foal raising program or for riders - is an important component and something we are woefully lacking. I noticed that the van Baalen's new youngster develpment program included a media training component; it appears the van Baalens consider all aspects of the business, which is very important and not something I see done frequently here. This is something the USEF or even the registries could assist riders, trainers, and owners with, for example by providing a seminar or guidebook regarding business development. I know that a number of their members have a lot of experience in this and related fields, and really anyone who has experience in client development for a successful business could provide useful input.

[Coreene]

And, again, US riders need to look long and hard at what their European counterparts offer sponsors for ROI.

Here's an example of someone who really knows how to do it. Dutch showjumper Piet Raijmakers' primary sponsor is Van Schijndel Bouwgroep, which is a construction firm belonging to Jo van Schijndel. The VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH on the opening page on pietraijmakers.nl discusses their partnership.

Part of Van Schijndel Bouwgroep is Van Schijndel Keukens, which does amazing kitchens. And the regular ad that they run in de Hoefslag, which is the Dutch equivalent of COTH, features Piet and his two sons, with Piet saying that if you buy a Van Schijndel kitchen, you're invited to spend the day at his barn to see how it all runs, including a nice lunch. The links to the two Van Schijdel websites are right there on the front page of Piet's website.

When I spoke of that to a rider here, who was desperate for sponsor $$, this person said "I can't be expected to entertain people!" Are you f*&king kidding me?

[YankeeLawyer]

And, again, US riders need to look long and hard at what their European counterparts offer sponsors for ROI.

Here's an example of someone who really knows how to do it. Dutch showjumper Piet Raijmakers' primary sponsor is Van Schijndel Bouwgroep, which is a construction firm belonging to Jo van Schijndel. The VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH on the opening page on pietraijmakers.nl discusses their partnership.

Part of Van Schijndel Bouwgroep is Van Schijndel Keukens, which does amazing kitchens. And the regular ad that they run in de Hoefslag, which is the Dutch equivalent of COTH, features Piet and his two sons, with Piet saying that if you buy a Van Schijndel kitchen, you're invited to spend the day at his barn to see how it all runs, including a nice lunch. The links to the two Van Schijdel websites are right there on the front page of Piet's website.

When I spoke of that to a rider here, who was desperate for sponsor $$, this person said "I can't be expected to entertain people!" Are you f*&king kidding me?

As someone who has just remodeled a kitchen and who has helped people get sponsorships, this resonates with me on several levels. : ). People REALLY need to learn that they are not entitled to anything, and that deals are only good deals if BOTH sides benefit, whether it is the sale of a horse, sponsorship of a rider, a training arrangement, etc. They also need to learn how to barter a little better. Riders, for example, may not have cash, but they have a lot they could offer people that won't cost them anything but a little bit of their time, such as the above example.

[Alagirl]

It needs to be a new thread, really, on how to get and retain sponsors without looking like a gigantuan leech or worse! :lol:

I tell you what, if I had the talent and skill to need a sponsor, I'd wreck my wittle brain on ways to hold up my end of the bargain. Should I get some dough from a car dealership, I'd make damn sure everybody knew about them, my trailer would look worse than the uniform of a successful NASCAR driver! :lol:

Local radio station, grocery store whatever....plan on loosening that writing hand...even if they end up in the trash, I'd be planning on signing tons of pictures...(or selling hoof prints of the 4 legged partner....) I think football players get a serious how to lesson in marketing when they play for big colleges. Even at a high school level they know about the booster club who buttered their toast!

It's so easy to create a little goodwill, even if somebody is not interested in the sport itsel and all of that is torn down with irrepairable damage to boot with a moment of primadonna-ism

Trainers and riders alike need to learn the value of the breeders (and bloodlines) some times you need to spend some money to make some, or in this case, do something for free or little money to reap the grand prize in the end.

Breeders in turn need to keep their eyes on the base. There are many talented young folks out there who might not be able to take the horse big time, but can give it the mileage and exposure till it is ready to go on to bigger and better things. (of course, once the riders get a taste of celebrity, they expect to be paid....shucks...another idea down the drain)

[Dressage Art]

Very interesting read.

re: "national' mindset" and dressage compared to the other, more affordable sports:

I started to learn dressage in a group of 2 dozen kids in a sport riding club in the center of the town. It was FUN and we did many FUN things together! When I immigrated to Us, I was quite surprised by how solitary Dressage sport is here. How riders even in the same barn jealous each other and often are unable to be frankly happy for each other. It's all about winning! I was surprised to see how important it is to get a blue ribbon at the championships. As I remember from showing in several European countries, dressage was more "participation" sport and more "team" sport than it is in US. Dressage shows were more "inclusive" as well. Thus, I think the reason why it's more popular in Europe.

The same applies to trainers in US, too many of them dislike each other, openly badmouthing each other and have a history of even physically punching each other. Trainers don’t seem to be as supportive of each other. What is getting affected by that mindset? I think US dressage at large does. However, 3-day eventing in US is much more supportive of kids and team spirit, so I see more kids going to 3-day eventing and having FUN rather than dressage = thus making 3-day eventing more popular while dressage is loosing some of it's younger riders. And possibly our future dressage stars.

Most of dressage riders are aware that most dressage barns are NOT kid-friendly; some even have”no-kids” policies in place. How those suppose to help dressage to get popular?

[canyonoak]

These are all good ideas.

But what we need is something that works as an umbrella.

We have American Horse Council.
We have USEF.
We have sport organizations.
We have breed organizations.

We have state and regional versions of the above.


What we do not have is any coherent, cohesive policy that is AGREED upon as to how to get horse sport to have influence, power, money--and therefore sponsors, growing numbers of riders/horses/breeders/etc etc etc.

The reason this all succeeds in say Germany/Holland is because the horse sport people there WANT TO SUCCEED.

Not because the country is tiny; not because they have a population educated to know about and be interested in horses; not because horses are on TV.

It succeeds because enough people work together to identify their goals, their problems, and formulate a plan.

Riders over there are educated enough to understand that you NEED sponsors; that human nature is such that it helps if you present yourself as someone who has a plan, a way to promote the sponsor,etc etc.

Breeders over there understand that they have to get their horses to the right riders.

Trainers understand that they have to have process in order to attract riders and have success.

Riders understand that they have to gain process in order to gain more horses--and then be able to figure out where they slot into the business--as show rider, as stallion manager, as teacher of young riders or trainer of young horses,etc etc.

Can any of you imagine, just as a for instance, Holland or Germany without a national coach for two years? Just to pick one small cog in the wheel of horse sport?

The system works over there because they created a SYSTEM, and it self-perpetuates and self-corrects.

All we have here are a bunch of organizations working at cross-purposes.

Out of that, as far as dressage, we have fashioned /cobbled together a few great riders at various times and teams that go to the world stage and gain medals.

Not bad--but it could be so much,so much more.

ANd to quote Sjef Janssen, the U.S. picture right now is "Not much behind Steffen Peters and Ravel."

More food for thought: Isabell Werth has pointed out that even in Germany there is a decline in number of younger riders who want to compete in dressage.
All we have here are a bunch of organizations working at cross-purposes.


I think we need to figure out a way to do band together to have some power and influence. Power and influence which will be used to implement policy. Policy which will in turn
promote agreed-upon goals that will in turn benefit horse sport.

[Alagirl]

Very interesting read.

re: "national' mindset" and dressage compared to the other, more affordable sports:

I started to learn dressage in a group of 2 dozen kids in a sport riding club in the center of the town. It was FUN and we did many FUN things together! When I immigrated to Us, I was quite surprised by how solitary Dressage sport is here. How riders even in the same barn jealous each other and often are unable to be frankly happy for each other. It's all about winning! I was surprised to see how important it is to get a blue ribbon at the championships. As I remember from showing in several European countries, dressage was more "participation" sport and more "team" sport than it is in US. Dressage shows were more "inclusive" as well. Thus, I think the reason why it's more popular in Europe.

The same applies to trainers in US, too many of them dislike each other, openly badmouthing each other and have a history of even physically punching each other. Trainers don’t seem to be as supportive of each other. What is getting affected by that mindset? I think US dressage at large does. However, 3-day eventing in US is much more supportive of kids and team spirit, so I see more kids going to 3-day eventing and having FUN rather than dressage = thus making 3-day eventing more popular while dressage is loosing some of it's younger riders. And possibly our future dressage stars.

Most of dressage riders are aware that most dressage barns are NOT kid-friendly; some even have”no-kids” policies in place. How those suppose to help dressage to get popular?


Good point! One of my sister's best friends ever was a girl she competed against on a regular basis (almost every weekend, many times face to face).

[Eclectic Horseman]

Most of dressage riders are aware that most dressage barns are NOT kid-friendly; some even have”no-kids” policies in place. How those suppose to help dressage to get popular?

I've been saying this for a long time. It's a reason that the hunter/jumper discipline is continuing to do okay in these tough economic times. Parents will get a second mortgage to buy a nice schoolmaster for little muffy to pack around the circuit. Adult ammies are a lot more circumspect about the time and money they put into their own hobbies. :yes:

[YankeeLawyer]

These are all good ideas.

But what we need is something that works as an umbrella.

We have American Horse Council.
We have USEF.
We have sport organizations.
We have breed organizations.

We have state and regional versions of the above.


.


Respectfully, I think we are not going to get anywhere trying to establish an umbrella that is trying to be all things to all people - Olympiads and ammie owners, the various disciplines, the many breeds, etc. I think there is SOME hope if the specialists band together and take the lead on an initiative that is focused on international level dressage, and developing both young riders and young horses in this country in that direction.

I think we should have, among other things:
- a national coach, based in the US;
- at any given time, a national A-Team and B-Team list of riders;
- special training programs for those riders; and
- a young horse raising program.

One reason I think dressage is more interesting than showjumping, for example, is that there IS so much opportunity there. In showjumping, you can have a great horse and great rider but there are a whole bunch of others out there that are just as good, all vying for the same few slots. If I were a parent with dreams of my kid winning an Olympic medal, I'd definitely steer the little princess towards dressage.

[Kareen]

I can reiterate the solitary aspect. Don't think this development is non-existent here in Europe though. Here too there is a problem with fading clubs and nobody seems to have the time for 'Ehrenamt' anymore which is the word reserved for unpaid work on behalf of any given entity.
The fading away popularity of equestrian sports is magically accompanied here by a massive increase in horse-interested people as a whole here though. And many of those who are now riding on a leisure basis, follow alternative concepts or even ride on their own without being organized anywhere or by anybody are ex-show riders or at least have been members of a club previously.
I therefor think it's a smart move from the national organizations to try and incorporate those displeased or bored with the sport by offering them different approaches more customized to their specific needs (e.g. the late beginner, the ex-advanced re-rider who wants to get back into the saddle after taking a break for professional career or family chores, the kid with special needs etc.)
BTW I don't really understand the original complaint. I think the US dressage team is doing quite beautifully considering how young a sport dressage riding is in the States?
Matching the top horses to the top riders is a challenge in every country. I do believe that efforts should be made though to increase the popularity of dressage as a sport again. Unfortunately we can see on this very board just how disinterested most dressage fans are in what someone else's motives or feelings might be *LOL*

[YankeeLawyer]

BTW I don't really understand the original complaint. I think the US dressage team is doing quite beautifully considering how young a sport dressage riding is in the States?

That is nice to say, but this is the US, where impatience and ambition are instilled at a young age ; ). Just kidding. But, I think the issue is that, although we have a few stars, there is not a lot of depth and breadth after them. There is a lot of underutilized talent out there. And even the biggest names do not have the mounts they should.

[canyonoak]

<<
I think we should have, among other things:
- a national coach, based in the US;
- at any given time, a national A-Team and B-Team list of riders;
- special training programs for those riders; and
- a young horse raising program.>>

National coach: obviously I agree

A list B list: we already have that. They are known as 'Long list' and 'Short list'

Special training programs: we sort of have those, and of course this part all functions better if there is a system of coaches/trainers in place, starting with the National coach.

Young horse raising system: This is the one I do not understand. There are plenty of people breeding young horses.

The reason I suggested some kind of overall policy in place is precisely to help the breeders to feel they are all involved, as opposed to being left on their own to cope with everything.

If someone develops great ice skates--those skates have to get to the best skaters for feedback, then get to enough skaters that the developer can make a profit.

Within the world of iceskating, this all works out.

In the world of sport horse breeding, this does not all work out.

Why?

Because there is not a business-sport model in place.

Why?
Because there is no centralized organization to work out a business model so that everyone can benefit.

How are the horses going to get to the top riders?
How are the horses going to get to ENOUGH riders?
How is the breeder going to make enough money to want to keep breeding,beyond the crazed passion all breeders share?

We need an organization that can use its clout and influence to obtain the protection and measures that other organizations get--whether that is the Cotton Council, US.Ice Skating, or whatever.

[freestyle2music]

And, again, US riders need to look long and hard at what their European counterparts offer sponsors for ROI.

Here's an example of someone who really knows how to do it. Dutch showjumper Piet Raijmakers' primary sponsor is Van Schijndel Bouwgroep, which is a construction firm belonging to Jo van Schijndel. The VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH on the opening page on pietraijmakers.nl discusses their partnership.

Part of Van Schijndel Bouwgroep is Van Schijndel Keukens, which does amazing kitchens. And the regular ad that they run in de Hoefslag, which is the Dutch equivalent of COTH, features Piet and his two sons, with Piet saying that if you buy a Van Schijndel kitchen, you're invited to spend the day at his barn to see how it all runs, including a nice lunch. The links to the two Van Schijdel websites are right there on the front page of Piet's website.

When I spoke of that to a rider here, who was desperate for sponsor $$, this person said "I can't be expected to entertain people!" Are you f*&king kidding me?

AMEN !


and @ Kareen please don't say "here in Europe" while you mean "here in Germany"

[YankeeLawyer]

<<
I think we should have, among other things:
- a national coach, based in the US;
- at any given time, a national A-Team and B-Team list of riders;
- special training programs for those riders; and
- a young horse raising program.>>

National coach: obviously I agree

A list B list: we already have that. They are known as 'Long list' and 'Short list'


Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of long and short lists is that they only have them as to a specific competition, e.g., the Olympics. And do they even have them for dressage? I know they do for 3-Day and SJ. Can you provide a link to the current long and short lists for dressage.




Special training programs: we sort of have those, and of course this part all functions better if there is a system of coaches/trainers in place, starting with the National coach.

We barely have them. I am thinking along the lines of training camps as they used to do up until the 80s - at least in 3-Day and SJ (at Gladstone and in the Carolinas).



Young horse raising system: This is the one I do not understand. There are plenty of people breeding young horses.

There is no young horse raising system. We have people who produce the infant. And then there is the gap between them and the riders out there showing. We need to bridge that gap, unless everyone is going to continue to expect breeders to do everything and somehow magically develop the horse to GP. See Marydell's post.

I don't have a problem with the concept of a group taking the lead, but I do not think an umbrella organization is the answer, though perhaps if you were more specific about what "policy" you envision I might have a different take.

In addition, sponsorship opportunities and the like are going to depend a lot on effective networking and the contacts that individual horse people may have. I can tell you that a lot of people who would be happy to support the sport are not going to let some umbrella organization run riot over their contacts.

[slc2]

This thread has been absolutely fantastic and very educational to me. Thank you everyone for the very thoughtful and detailed responses.

[Alagirl]

Respectfully, I think we are not going to get anywhere trying to establish an umbrella that is trying to be all things to all people - Olympiads and ammie owners, the various disciplines, the many breeds, etc. I think there is SOME hope if the specialists band together and take the lead on an initiative that is focused on international level dressage, and developing both young riders and young horses in this country in that direction.




Actually, you need the umbrella tp combine all the aspects, as all connect.

[canyonoak]

Long list for dressage (one example)

http://www.usef.org/documents/highPerformance/dressage/2008LongList.pdf

Training camps:
You cannot have training camp if you do not have a coach.
You cannot have training camp like the old days because in the old days (and I am old enough to remember them and remember my thrill at talking to Bert de Nemethy, Bengt Ljungquist and Jack Le Goff at various times)...in the old days, "Gladstone" was...Gladstone.
Now it is a golf course with a few stables and arenas on one end.

And more importantly, the known world of horse sport was ONLY the East Coast. An area about the size of Germany, hahahahah, and Gladstone was the US version of Warendorf. (Although ,then Neil Ayer and Jack LeGoff moved eventing to Ledyard...)

Now, for dressage, it is safe to say there are centers of horse sport throughout the US, all the way to the Pacific.

What can be worked out is what started to happen when Klaus B was coach: a series of clinics. What still needs to be worked out is which riders/horses are in those clinics; what other trainers are around to also give clinics to say, greener horses, younger riders,whatever; . And most importantly: WHERE IS THE MONEY FOR ALL THIS COMING FROM.

Please excuse the 'computer-yell', but I truly believe we need to realize that all these ideas require funding.

Young horse system:
My longwinded answer<g>.

This thread started out with Sjef Janssen interview in which he was asked, among other things, how the US could do better in top sport dressage.

ANd the answer to that is: by matching the best riders with the best horses and giving them the best training and supporting them with the best team.

Young horses are of course important, and I really do understand the passion of breeders--but frankly, the success of a sport does not depend on the product being grown in that country. And before everyone yells at me, please: ice skater pairs for the most part featured their ex-Russian partner just as much as our latest dressage teams have featured both horses and riders born (and raised) in Europe. Ice skating has grown more popular, and there are more home-grown pairs emerging.

It is changing in ice skating and,thank heavens, it is changing in dressage.

Nevertheless, Hilda Gurney and Keen were both born and bred and raised and trained in the United States. It says a lot about the nature of dressage and the difficulties of the sport that we have yet to produce another such pair, despite the growth of interest in dressage, the rise of sponsors for lucky riders, the acquisition of incredible horseflesh, etc etc.

I am all for horse sport developing a business model policy in which EVERY part of the necessary ingredients get attention and help and cooperation and funding: breeders, riders,teachers,stable managers, veterinarians, farriers, show organizers, sponsors, etc etc.

Each of the above have to have their own organization.

But I really believe that it is the combined representation that will attract funds to be spent on horse sport as a whole.

Right now, it is difficult for me to believe that a major kitchen manufacturer in the United States believes that there is any consumer interest out there in a dressage publication.
Let alone any such manufacturer who cares to sponsor a rider.

I want horse sport to be perceived as SPORT. The horses as athletes. The riders as stars.
The successful partnerships as worthy of media coverage and investment.

[siegi b.]

Hi canyonoak - you tend to have the overall view and I can't help but agree with it. I think we all need to take a step back and think about the big picture before we make our opinions known.

I'm a breeder and tend to want to have my good horses with the top riders. That isn't going to happen in most cases unless there is a process in place that allows for that transition. Thank goodness after all these years in the sport I have a few "connections" that allow me to "play" on the next level, however, that doesn't get me to the top echelon of riders which is where I really want to be with my top echelon youngster.

I think the only way to have a seamless transition to this top echelon is to have an organization in place as canyonoak suggests.

Just my opinion.....

[claire]

This is why I love the COTH forums. Great input and ideas from such diverse backgrounds! :D

[Sabine]

Long list for dressage (one example)

http://www.usef.org/documents/highPerformance/dressage/2008LongList.pdf

Training camps:
You cannot have training camp if you do not have a coach.
You cannot have training camp like the old days because in the old days (and I am old enough to remember them and remember my thrill at talking to Bert de Nemethy, Bengt Ljungquist and Jack Le Goff at various times)...in the old days, "Gladstone" was...Gladstone.
Now it is a golf course with a few stables and arenas on one end.

And more importantly, the known world of horse sport was ONLY the East Coast. An area about the size of Germany, hahahahah, and Gladstone was the US version of Warendorf. (Although ,then Neil Ayer and Jack LeGoff moved eventing to Ledyard...)

Now, for dressage, it is safe to say there are centers of horse sport throughout the US, all the way to the Pacific.

What can be worked out is what started to happen when Klaus B was coach: a series of clinics. What still needs to be worked out is which riders/horses are in those clinics; what other trainers are around to also give clinics to say, greener horses, younger riders,whatever; . And most importantly: WHERE IS THE MONEY FOR ALL THIS COMING FROM.

Please excuse the 'computer-yell', but I truly believe we need to realize that all these ideas require funding.

Young horse system:
My longwinded answer<g>.

This thread started out with Sjef Janssen interview in which he was asked, among other things, how the US could do better in top sport dressage.

ANd the answer to that is: by matching the best riders with the best horses and giving them the best training and supporting them with the best team.

Young horses are of course important, and I really do understand the passion of breeders--but frankly, the success of a sport does not depend on the product being grown in that country. And before everyone yells at me, please: ice skater pairs for the most part featured their ex-Russian partner just as much as our latest dressage teams have featured both horses and riders born (and raised) in Europe. Ice skating has grown more popular, and there are more home-grown pairs emerging.

It is changing in ice skating and,thank heavens, it is changing in dressage.

Nevertheless, Hilda Gurney and Keen were both born and bred and raised and trained in the United States. It says a lot about the nature of dressage and the difficulties of the sport that we have yet to produce another such pair, despite the growth of interest in dressage, the rise of sponsors for lucky riders, the acquisition of incredible horseflesh, etc etc.

I am all for horse sport developing a business model policy in which EVERY part of the necessary ingredients get attention and help and cooperation and funding: breeders, riders,teachers,stable managers, veterinarians, farriers, show organizers, sponsors, etc etc.

Each of the above have to have their own organization.

But I really believe that it is the combined representation that will attract funds to be spent on horse sport as a whole.

Right now, it is difficult for me to believe that a major kitchen manufacturer in the United States believes that there is any consumer interest out there in a dressage publication.
Let alone any such manufacturer who cares to sponsor a rider.

I want horse sport to be perceived as SPORT. The horses as athletes. The riders as stars.
The successful partnerships as worthy of media coverage and investment.

True in so many ways....but really as a business person I would only invest if I either have a product for sale that is related to these activities or if the sport is so popular that it attracts a sizable part of the population that thus is of interest to me- because I can find a matching pool of folks that would most likel also want to hear about my product.

Thus-I feel we are in a chicken and egg situation. In Germany- horse sports is a native event- it is part of the original culture - especially in Northern Germany- and there are lots of well established smaller to mid sized local companies that like to sponsor such events.
Here- we lack the infrastructure- the culture and the sophistication for most parts to recognize the quality of a dressage test. (sorry- but I think true). Thus it becomes a slowly developing sport that will get eventually enough steam in the engine to run on its own- but we are I think at least 10 to 15 years away from that. Until then- we need to try and promote the sport and bridge that lack by using associations, fees, and creative thinking.

Ironically in my mind- the breeding quality will catch up with the popularity increase (of which I am certain)and thus a good future is in the making...although- I'll be real old by then...:(!

[YankeeLawyer]

If I am understanding correctly, the proposal is a massive umbrella organization representing everyone in the horse industry, all breeds, and all disciplines, and this is the organization whose singular mission is to more effectively market the sport, cultivate sponsorship opportunities, and develop top riders and horses for international level dressage competition? I think you really are going to need a more homogenous group than that, and something a lot less unwieldy. Otherwise, what you are going to have is a lot of competing factions with divergent agendas.

Can someone explain exactly what this organization is supposed to do (more specifically than "they will make a 'Policy.'")


FWIW, I am a pretty big skating fan as well and historically the skating teams have been predominately US born skaters. I believe it is mostly in the post-Soviet era that we started seeing Russian ice dancers on the scene here. You don't see Russian-born US Team skaters hawking US made kitchens, either.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

And I am sure I will get flamed here, but I will not personally support any organization that does not promote US riders and US bred horses, and I know a lot of potential US sponsors who feel the same way. My personal goal, and I may be alone in this, is to provide opportunities for US riders to build a US team, not to give opportunities to Europeans who were not good enough to make their own teams in their own countries (especially given that they DID have infrastructure, a system, and all the opportunities that everyone says we should aspire to).



How does a non-US rider represent the USA?
You have to be a citizen of the country you ride for.

[Marydell]

OK- I am an American Breeder and have a very public record of supporting American Breeding. I own a very good GP horse as well. So my thoughts are based on both ends of the industry.

But the outline I presented is not solely based on supporting the breeding industry here. It was simply more cost effective than importing. This outline requires the investment of time more than money.

A top quality foal of the caliber I am speaking of would go for about 50,000 Euro ( or even higher)at auction or 30,000 privately or about $65,000 to a low of $40,000. The same quality foal here in the USA would be sold for anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000. So the program already has a cost advantage with offering the breeder some recognition.


The cost to buy a top 6 or 7 year old in Europe, or even here, will probably be well over $200,000. This is not within the reach of most people or even our top riders unless they are sponsored. Sponsors go to the winning riders and that is why our country is stagnating. The up and comings have no sponsorship unless they are mentored by a top rider.--so no real oppertunity to show how good they are.

A horse that goes through this program would cost about $40,000 each to produce to age 6. Then when sold at age 6 or 7, not counting the very best that would be offered privately to the top ( or long listed) riders, they might go for well over $60,000. This would make the whole program start to pay for itself inside of 7 years.


Sabine- the quality of breeding here in the US is already that of Europe. Most, if not all,of the registry personel who come here to conduct inspections and licensings already tell their American counterparts that. Our foals are equal to or can surpass what is in Europe. I personally can substanstiate that from traving through No. Germany and seeing hundreds of foals every year for the last 9 years.

Where we fall down is in the culture of raising these promising individuals. In both Germany and Holland, the breeders and rearerers take their best to the top riders hoping that the rider will take their horse. Isabell Werth owns foals for example. There are farms to raise, and then young riders to back and start these horses. They will go the the best young horse riders who then show the horse through either the "M" level or the YH classes. Once they have shown promise for the upper levels, then the BNR gets on and shows that individual.

In my proposal, it simply trys to put that missing link into place with identifying young horse trainers and giving them a top quality horse to prepare. I can name two young people, who thanks to sponsors from their mentors are well on the way to becoming the next group of international riders--Katherine Bateson Chandler and Aidriene Lyle( forgive the spelling ladies). But two are not enough and there are many more people out there who slip through the cracks becasue they do not have a mentor or sponsor. Hopefully this program would help to identify them and bring them an oppertunity they would not otherwise have.

** First, we all agree that there is an issue that needs to be addressed.
** Second, we all agree a solution will cost money
** Third, we all agree that money needs to come from sponors
** Fourth, we all agree that someone or organization needs to oversee the entire program( whatever program may be implemented) from start to finish to see continuity and lack of special interests of one group over another.

OK - so what can we do?
We do NOT agree on any one approach. But just debating it alone has produced some good ideas. Saying there is a problem does not help to solve it. Talking without trying out ideas produces just hot air.

IMO, we need to have a detailed proposal written. Then presented to the "powers that be" such as the USEF.
The outline of management and cost should be in the proposal, but left up to the organization to flesh out if they are interested.
We are doing nothing to solve our issues by sitting back and finding flaws in proposals that someone is brave enough to float publically. If there is a problem with a proposal, point it out and offer an alternative. That is the way progress is made.

I am not good with numbers nor am I good at finding sponsorship. But I can observe the programs that are succefull in other countries and try to see how we can make them apply to our situation.

Can you all remember the saying that came out of the 60's?
"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[DownYonder]

Maryanna, I like your proposal in theory as it has become very evident over the past few years that while our breeders are putting very good foals on the ground (although still not in the depth of the Germans and Dutch), we are falling down in getting them started correctly by good young horse specialists. Yes, some breeders have a good Y/H person lined up, but - as mentioned so many times - breeders have to often sell a very promising prospect to someone they KNOW cannot bring the horse to full potential, just to get some $$$ coming in the door (most everyone has bills to pay and husbands or wives to try to make happy :lol:).

I am unclear on one thing - who selects "the top foals"? Is it done by the 3 person committee you mentioned, or only by one of them? It seems that might be a bit of a logistical problem, getting 3 busy professionals together to fly around the country and look at foals.

[Marydell]

Since the foaling season is so long and the best time to look at these foals is at 3 weeks and 3 months, the individuals would go to the farms or a central site, like an inspection( but NOT an inspection!!) in their area. They can "tag" the interseting ones in their area. Let the owner of that foal submit a video from the "look see" to the committe of three at the end of the summer when those 10 can be selected based on the eye witness observation of the selectors.( I personally would LOVE to hear those discussions! What we could learn!) Those "tagged" will be interesting to other buyers if they are not selected because they were considered the best in their area.

So the breeder does not lose out on a sale if their foal ultimately ends up not being one of the top ten.

But the key here are people who know what they are looking at. This is not generally a breed inspector at all!! Apples and oranges. Those folks have not ridden or competed at the upper levels or even owned a horse that has. It has to be a person of experience at GP of one kind or another and with credentials as a breeder.

Of course, nopt all of the foals selected will make it through the program. There will be attrition due to injury and illness.

I think just as difficult, and even more important, is the selection of who will get these youngsters as 3 yr olds. That is a whole different set of eyes with different criteria.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[VolteVT]

Many thanks to Marydell for her novel proposal!

Re: foal selection -

Would it be possible for breeders to intially send photos/video and pertinent information regarding pedigree/performance record of immediate family to a central committee, along with an evaluation fee (not as much as a traditional registry inspection fee, but maybe $30-$50/foal)? The the selectors could flag foals of interest and invite them to one or several regional evaluation sites, where they would narrow down the list 'in person'?

Admittedly, the cost burden for the initial 'mail-in' evaluation and potential travel to a live site for invited horses would be carried by the breeder, but this would cut down travel time and expense for evaluators and raise some money through evaluation fees. Plus it gives breeders a marketing point if their foal is invited to participate in the live evaluation even if it does not make the final cut. Regional or central sites would better lend themselves to corporate sponsorship, and it would be very educational for breeders and riders alike to be present at those central foal evaluations!

[YankeeLawyer]

How does a non-US rider represent the USA?
You have to be a citizen of the country you ride for.

I have no idea how you got that paragraph to quote as I deleted almost as soon as I wrote it as I did not want to deal with responding to comments on that. But in any event, it is no secret that riders do switch citizenship for the purpose of enhancing their chances to make an international squad.

[canyonoak]

The solution is not an umbrella organization for high performance success, etc etc.

The solution is not buying foals,etc etc.

The solution is not finding and training more riders to start young horses.

The solution is to have all of this and more--to figure out how to create an atmosphere where horse sport is more part of our fabric and more in front of people every day so it becomes part of the culture.

The solution is for there to be a realization that the horse industry represents a LOT of the population; a LOT of money; a LOT of discretionary buying power and influence.

That the horse sport sector needs to band together to wield that power and influence ,rather than each sub-sector trying to promote only its own goals.

I just believe that if this were a CONSCIOUS goal,rather than an 'evolution will take its fit course' event, horse sport might benefit a bit faster.

The only way to breed the top 10% of foals good enough for international is to breed AND SELL a whole bunch of very good foals so that breeders can survive.

The only way to sell a bunch of very good foals is to have enough riders out there that there is a demand for the supply.

The only way to have enough riders out there is to make the riding of horses something that is do-able, that has teachers and trainers and rewards built in.And so on.

It's all bricks and all the bricks have to be there.

I know plenty of riders in this country, but hardly any I would trust to start my young horses.
I know plenty of upper level riders but hardly any I would want to send my wonderful young horse to.

We have big HOLES in the system,and it is not enough to patch up a hole.
The system has to be adapted and tweaked so it works better.

That is all I am saying--that the system works,after a fashion,but it could work a lot better if horse sport was thought of as an entity to be marketed and grown .

[YankeeLawyer]

OK- I am an American Breeder and have a very public record of supporting American Breeding. I own a very good GP horse as well. So my thoughts are based on both ends of the industry.

But the outline I presented is not solely based on supporting the breeding industry here. It was simply more cost effective than importing. This outline requires the investment of time more than money.

A top quality foal of the caliber I am speaking of would go for about 50,000 Euro ( or even higher)at auction or 30,000 privately or about $65,000 to a low of $40,000. The same quality foal here in the USA would be sold for anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000. So the program already has a cost advantage with offering the breeder some recognition.


The cost to buy a top 6 or 7 year old in Europe, or even here, will probably be well over $200,000. This is not within the reach of most people or even our top riders unless they are sponsored. Sponsors go to the winning riders and that is why our country is stagnating. The up and comings have no sponsorship unless they are mentored by a top rider.--so no real oppertunity to show how good they are.

A horse that goes through this program would cost about $40,000 each to produce to age 6. Then when sold at age 6 or 7, not counting the very best that would be offered privately to the top ( or long listed) riders, they might go for well over $60,000. This would make the whole program start to pay for itself inside of 7 years.


Sabine- the quality of breeding here in the US is already that of Europe. Most, if not all,of the registry personel who come here to conduct inspections and licensings already tell their American counterparts that. Our foals are equal to or can surpass what is in Europe. I personally can substanstiate that from traving through No. Germany and seeing hundreds of foals every year for the last 9 years.

Where we fall down is in the culture of raising these promising individuals. In both Germany and Holland, the breeders and rearerers take their best to the top riders hoping that the rider will take their horse. Isabell Werth owns foals for example. There are farms to raise, and then young riders to back and start these horses. They will go the the best young horse riders who then show the horse through either the "M" level or the YH classes. Once they have shown promise for the upper levels, then the BNR gets on and shows that individual.

In my proposal, it simply trys to put that missing link into place with identifying young horse trainers and giving them a top quality horse to prepare. I can name two young people, who thanks to sponsors from their mentors are well on the way to becoming the next group of international riders--Katherine Bateson Chandler and Aidriene Lyle( forgive the spelling ladies). But two are not enough and there are many more people out there who slip through the cracks becasue they do not have a mentor or sponsor. Hopefully this program would help to identify them and bring them an oppertunity they would not otherwise have.

** First, we all agree that there is an issue that needs to be addressed.
** Second, we all agree a solution will cost money
** Third, we all agree that money needs to come from sponors
** Fourth, we all agree that someone or organization needs to oversee the entire program( whatever program may be implemented) from start to finish to see continuity and lack of special interests of one group over another.

OK - so what can we do?
We do NOT agree on any one approach. But just debating it alone has produced some good ideas. Saying there is a problem does not help to solve it. Talking without trying out ideas produces just hot air.

IMO, we need to have a detailed proposal written. Then presented to the "powers that be" such as the USEF.
The outline of management and cost should be in the proposal, but left up to the organization to flesh out if they are interested.
We are doing nothing to solve our issues by sitting back and finding flaws in proposals that someone is brave enough to float publically. If there is a problem with a proposal, point it out and offer an alternative. That is the way progress is made.

I am not good with numbers nor am I good at finding sponsorship. But I can observe the programs that are succefull in other countries and try to see how we can make them apply to our situation.

Can you all remember the saying that came out of the 60's?
"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

I agree 100% with Marydell's idea.

[YankeeLawyer]

But the key here are people who know what they are looking at. This is not generally a breed inspector at all!! Apples and oranges. Those folks have not ridden or competed at the upper levels or even owned a horse that has. It has to be a person of experience at GP of one kind or another and with credentials as a breeder.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

It is going to be hard to find people who meet that criteria here, imo, but if we only need 3 or 4, maybe it is possible. I find that there is often a big gap between GP riders (who often know nothing, and I mean nothing, about bloodlines or babies) and breeders (who often know nothing about international level horses).

[YankeeLawyer]

Many thanks to Marydell for her novel proposal!

Re: foal selection -

Would it be possible for breeders to intially send photos/video and pertinent information regarding pedigree/performance record of immediate family to a central committee, along with an evaluation fee (not as much as a traditional registry inspection fee, but maybe $30-$50/foal)? The the selectors could flag foals of interest and invite them to one or several regional evaluation sites, where they would narrow down the list 'in person'?

Admittedly, the cost burden for the initial 'mail-in' evaluation and potential travel to a live site for invited horses would be carried by the breeder, but this would cut down travel time and expense for evaluators and raise some money through evaluation fees. Plus it gives breeders a marketing point if their foal is invited to participate in the live evaluation even if it does not make the final cut. Regional or central sites would better lend themselves to corporate sponsorship, and it would be very educational for breeders and riders alike to be present at those central foal evaluations!

I personally think breeders should at least have the option of submitting a video in the initial round. It would be a real shame to miss out on a great foal in some remote part of Montana, for example, just because it might be too cost-prohibitive to take a chance at an inspection site far away.

[Coreene]

USEF is about winning international medals. As much as they give lip service to breeders, do you really think they are going to be behind putting $$ into anything that isn't instant gratification? No. Much easier for Akika to go buy a made horse for her German rider that has a US passport. That's not at all a put-down of Steffen. But he's part of a successful German system - start the big goal with small steps. That's what the US needs, the infrastructure that moves the riders up the ladder (and don't forget, the Dutch version of this includes the giant Rabobank sponsorship). The breeder part will never be a focus of USEF. That will never be what they are about.

[DownYonder]

But the key here are people who know what they are looking at. This is not generally a breed inspector at all!! Apples and oranges. Those folks have not ridden or competed at the upper levels or even owned a horse that has. It has to be a person of experience at GP of one kind or another and with credentials as a breeder.

Not necessarily true for all breed inspectors. Katrin Burger has made more than a few up to GP, pluse she has experience in the breeding world and experience starting/competing young horses. I would say she has a pretty good understanding of what is needed in an upper level horse. Holly Simensen has also had a lot of exposure to upper level horses through her ownership of Rhodes Scholar, and by virtue of the fact that she was married to the late Marty Simensen during his career as the USET vet.

I am also thinking that more than 3 people will be needed. Maybe a main committee of 3, with several "apprentices" or auxiliary members - that could be trained up and ready to step in if one of the 3 is not available. I am thinking of people like Laura Whitford, who is a long time breeder and has experience riding at the FEI levels, or Meg Williams (also a breeder who rides at the FEI levels). I am sure there are others here and there that might be suitable candidates.

And what about the jumper bred foals? Or event bred foals? (Denny Emerson, for sure, for the latter.)

[carovet]

on the "system proposal"

I am thinking that the "uset foundation" and "dressage foundation" would be who to go to for financial backing of a "plan" rather than usef who is more governmental than endowment.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I have no idea how you got that paragraph to quote as I deleted almost as soon as I wrote it as I did not want to deal with responding to comments on that. But in any event, it is no secret that riders do switch citizenship for the purpose of enhancing their chances to make an international squad.

The US government does not hand out citizenship willy nilly. To become a US citizen requires a concerted effort to move to the US, establish residencey, being a law abiding tax paying member of society, who takes an oath of allegiance to Old Glory. In a land that is essentially built on people that came from somewhere else and their decendants, there is no sliding scale of Americaness. They are every bit as American as you, Hilda Gurney, mom, apple pie, Joe di Maggio, Marylin Monroe, George Bush or Barack Obama.
To suggest otherwise is offensive to some of us.

[Alagirl]

The US government does not hand out citizenship willy nilly. To become a US citizen requires a concerted effort to move to the US, establish residencey, being a law abiding tax paying member of society, who takes an oath of allegiance to Old Glory. In a land that is essentially built on people that came from somewhere else and their decendants, there is no sliding scale of Americaness. They are every bit as American as you, Hilda Gurney, mom, apple pie, Joe di Maggio, Marylin Monroe, George Bush or Barack Obama.
To suggest otherwise is offensive to some of us.

There are always ways to work the system. :lol: granted, other countries make it easier, but there are always provisions.

[Dressage Art]

Here too there is a problem with fading clubs and nobody seems to have the time for 'Ehrenamt' anymore which is the word reserved for unpaid work on behalf of any given entity.One of the largest N. CA local dressage clubs/society in their latest newsletter wrote that they can't find volunteers. To the point that there is not even a volunteer to give their "volunteer of the year" award to. An organization of 500+ dressage riders! It's really, really bad here... At the same time, as Theo mentioned already, at times sponsorship and volunteering are taking for granted with a dry "thank you" and may be even some criticism thrown in to.

[Dressage Art]

~re: kids are our future and BNTs:

Interestingly, US BNT is considered anybody who got to ride GP, even on the schoolmaster or even somebody who has a promise to show ride GP in the near future. In Europe BNT question is "how many GP horses did she trained up?” Just a couple of rides to get USDF Gold Medal will last a lifetime in US, in Europe BNT has to keep on producing the GP horses every few years not to become "a former BNT hopeful" :? Some European trainers trained 100+ GP horses!!! Hundreds not just 1!

At the same time, there is another peculiar difference: in Europe those GP trainers have one+ training assistants who are may be only PSG level or even 3rd level riders who give TONS of lessons to kids: teaching the very first ropes, lunging, group lessons until they are ready to take lessons with the BNT, but that BNT is overseeing their training, making sure that their are on the correct track. Yet, American BNTs (with 1- GP horse) don't even want to waste their time to teach kids.... to teach kids and to have schooling horses is below them... so most kids get the start with the random, non-dressage trainers in US and when they do want to change to dressage, their training has to be corrected.

How is that promoting dressage?

Look at the promising US young riders – they came from the equestrian families. Can you imagine how many more we can have if there would be a set up for kids to start the correct dressage from the very get-go? How many supper talented young riders US dressage is loosing? Success is in education even more than it is in the talent.

[J-Lu]

I like Marydell's idea but there are a few things that I can't easily get past.

First, how do you deal with the fact that some youngsters are *fabulous* on the line but don't pan out undersaddle/hitting collection, and vice versa. I'm not sure if the key is identifying foals. Plus, the growth stage is so unpredictable. Not all foals are "ready" at some given inspection time.

Second, I've heard the idea of a centralized young horse program tossed about. But there is much disagreement about a) who selects the foals and b) who trains the young horses? Everyone has their road to Rome and not everyone likes how others train. Politics is quite some factor in dressage.

Third, who pays for it? I honestly don't see alot of altruism at the end of the day. Sponsors don't want to pay for things unless they reach a market. Who is the market? The public. Dressage has to at least have the image of being friendlier to the public/amateurs if sponsorship results in revenue. Dressage hasn't done a very good job of reaching out to the lower levels/amateurs recently.

Fourth, there is such a Euro-fill-in-the-blank craze in America that even some of the most flag-toting breeders I know still love the prestige of having German horses in the barn and German or German-trained people in German clothing and boots on them. American-bred/born/trained is considered second rate even if it is the same quality of American bred horses. People looooooove to say they found a dressage diamond-in-the-rough prospect in the backyard of a German farmer but they're embarassed to say they found a dressage prospect in the backyard of an American farmer. How do people get over this attitude? I firmly believe that if more American foals were exported to Germany they'd be more quickly bought by more Americans. I think alot of American riders and breeders are our own worse enemies. They COULD try to shop in the US but they don't. It's not trendy. I know several quality breeding farms who somewhat recently purchased a foreign FEI horse rather than campaign their own home-bred. Hmmmmm. Why is that?

Fifth, there are many nice young horse riders in the US but we often don't utilize them. One reason is that *some* who are identified as nice riders charge a freakin' fortune to take on and campaign a horse! Or give a lesson to others. How can a lower income breeder with a super horse afford this? There are alot of riders who aspire to become wealthy by riding wealthy peoples' horses. Riders need to be realistic in their prices but many good riders are not. Thus, they ride horses by people who pay them the most...not necessarily the best horses. Another reason is that more reasonable nice riders don't necessarily show so much...so how is "the public" supposed to know who they are? There is no mechanism to identify nice riders who aren't in the barn of top riders.

Sixth, breeders don't get a whole lot of credit in the US. Riders do, but breeders don't. How many people can say who bred Ravel? How many people know who owns Ravel? Most can tell you who currently rides Ravel. How many breeders can afford Steffen to ride their top prospects?

I think that much could change if people became truly invested in US dressage. But the amateur ranks seem to be a nuisance to the powers that be and the powers that be seem so fascinated by all things German and Dutch. I'm not sure how to fix this.

[Coreene]

You are right, sponsors won't pay for bringing up foals. There is no ROI. For them, it is about marketing. Pavo - sponsors of the Pavo Cup, of course - get GIANT ROI by putting their name on it. Rabobank Talentplan. Meydan Nations Cup Series. Samsung Nations Cup Series. Volvo World Cup. Etc. Big ROI. American-bred progrsam? Not so much.

[Southernlawyer]

Ok, but why should everyone get paid except the rider who will actually train the horse? That is, after all, the most difficult and dangerous part and would represent a great deal of that person's time. I suppose a free prospect to train might be attractive to someone who was not a professional, i.e. someone who rode for the enjoyment of riding and not with the goal of making a living at it. However, and I know this from bitter experience, giving away your services is not a way to have them valued and what taking one of these horses for free would say to me about a rider was that the rider was not really a professional. In any event, if the rider is supposed to train the horse for free for the honor of training it, then the breeder should donate it for free for the honor of having it selected.

I think what you really need is a network of non profits and foundations. You need non profits to set up programs and foundations to fund them. There's a lot of money in dressage and there are very few foundations or non profits to which to contribute money. I think some of that big money would flow into charitable contributions, or be more likely to at least, if there were the possibility of a tax deduction.

A system of foundations and non profits is distinguishable from sponsorships, of course. A sponsor is a for profit entity, usually, who is providing the funding basically as advertising. A foundation is a pot of cash administered by a board of directors and officers of the foundation that gives money to other organizations, and sometimes, individuals. A non profit is an organization funded by foundation grants and by private donations that exists to accomplish certain goals and that creates and implements projects and programs. The foundation/ non profit paradigm is how most non governmental programs in the United States get implemented and funded.

[Coreene]

Of course the riders and trainers should be paid. Just don't agree that this plan of bring along foals is going to work. I, sponsor, want ROI. Foundations, foals, whatever, no ROI for me. Go back and pay attention to the breed societies in Europe helping move things along. KWPN publicizes big KWPN wins, no matter the passport of the owner or rider.

[J-Lu]

Ok, but why should everyone get paid except the rider who will actually train the horse? That is, after all, the most difficult and dangerous part and would represent a great deal of that person's time. I suppose a free prospect to train might be attractive to someone who was not a professional, i.e. someone who rode for the enjoyment of riding and not with the goal of making a living at it. However, and I know this from bitter experience, giving away your services is not a way to have them valued and what taking one of these horses for free would say to me about a rider was that the rider was not really a professional. In any event, if the rider is supposed to train the horse for free for the honor of training it, then the breeder should donate it for free for the honor of having it selected.

I think what you really need is a network of non profits and foundations. You need non profits to set up programs and foundations to fund them. There's a lot of money in dressage and there are very few foundations or non profits to which to contribute money. I think some of that big money would flow into charitable contributions, or be more likely to at least, if there were the possibility of a tax deduction.

A system of foundations and non profits is distinguishable from sponsorships, of course. A sponsor is a for profit entity, usually, who is providing the funding basically as advertising. A foundation is a pot of cash administered by a board of directors and officers of the foundation that gives money to other organizations, and sometimes, individuals. A non profit is an organization funded by foundation grants and by private donations that exists to accomplish certain goals and that creates and implements projects and programs. The foundation/ non profit paradigm is how most non governmental programs in the United States get implemented and funded.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but I don't think the rider shouldn't get paid. I suggest that the top riders come down in their fees. Top riders cost ALOT of money. 2.5-3K per month. They put in about 45 min/day on the back of a given horse - and don't pay for the tack or the entry fees or the show fees...and yet *make their reputation* on the successful horses. No rider makes a name on mediocre horses, no matter how great they might be. That reputation allows them to make $100-300/ride at clinics and lessons - something they couldn't make without that fancy horse that makes them well known. I think there needs to be a balance.

Many FEI riders have donation sites. If you ride at PSG or above, you can be a member of a non-profit group and people can donate directly to you through this nonprofit group. It's easy. But many riders don't take advantage. Like someone mentioned...some riders have blogs and emails to their sponsors...others can't be bothered. Why should someone give money to some rider? It's up to the rider to show some benefit for people to give them money. Similarly, it is up to the owner to provide some reason why people should give them money.

There are foundation and tax-deductable organizations. But again, why should people blindly give money? Most support a specific rider or their own horses.

Not all sponsors sponsor horses for a profit. Many don't. Many sponsor to support a rider they like or a horse they like. They don't expect a financial return and sometime the horse biz is the tax writeoff. But they sponsor in order to be a part of a team and to sit in the sponsor seats and to give a horse or rider a chance because they love the sport. For example, the Browns, the Brownings, J. Clark, the Thomases, Fritz Kundrun... they are some of the biggest sponsors and I don't think they make any money from the sport. But they very much support their specific top rider and put great horses underneath them. Judging from records, they are more successful in getting their riders to top venues than riders who rely on U.S. corporate sponsors.

Everyone wants a return on their money. That's the problem to overcome, I think.

[Marydell]

OK-- quick reply, will fill in more later today, on my way to the airport to see my daughter on a 2 hour lay over.

Let us not talk about the foals for any other discipline or any selectors for any specific registry. This will only promote some specific intrests DY. The people you mention are all Oldenburg and you know what a hot topic that is. Let us just keep the foal issue as general as possible for now.

First-- let's keep this focused on the main topic, getting TOP horses into a LARGER base of good riders. We are not talking about the average GP horse and rider here but those with a predictably good chance of making a team.

Second- the sponsors mentioned in the above posts only support the BNR and not up and comings --in general. So perpetuating a system that is broken.

Third- sponsorship should be a honor and privledge. I am old enough to remember the days of the USET finding those up and coming horses and riders ( not always a pair at the time of discovery)and bringing sponsorship $$ that went directly to the USET into training those combinations for international competition.

Fourth-- There are young riders and trainers that are so hungry for a chance that they will train/ride a horse that has promise for nothing. As long as it costs them nothing. I am NOT alking about a hobbyist but a pro. I have personally been contacted by two since this thread started.

As far as foal selection. There is a way to do this. I am very aware of growth stages. That is why there are limited times that a foal should be seen and certainly NOT ON THE LINE!!!! but at liberty for a period of time, not 5 minutes. These line foals that win are not nesssesarily what a top GP horse is. It is why both here and in Germany there is such a lack of horses that are top quality. YH winners are what registries are perpetuating.
That is why the selection committee members must be chosen with special care. How and where the foals are observed is a detail to be worked out.

I will answer more later this afternoon.

Please keep the dialog going. This is such an important issue for our dressage community.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[Plantagenet]

In reading all of this, it seems to me there are really 3 separate issues to address for the US to become more successful:

1. elite horses
2. elite riders
3. elite management

IMHO, we need a plan to develop all 3 of these and each needs a different plan.

e.g. as a breeder, Maryanna is thinking about #1, but we have a very small base of elite riders. How do we get more to improve the odds of a great pairing?

....and how do riders become elite w/o getting international experience? we can't just drive over border like in Europe!

....and we can have elite riders and horses but if we don't have someone as sly and clever as Sjef guiding us in the International 'waters' (ok, I can see the eyes rolling!), it won't matter much.

seems to me EACH leg has to be strong for us to do well

[slc2]

I'd like to suggest that having a program for breeders to help them match young horses to riders who can develop them, is a necessary part of a strong elite dressage team, but supporting that elite team, coaching and selecting those riders and horses that are ready, RIGHT NOW for an event that is here RIGHT NOW, is a separate and different problem from creating a whole system that funnels horses and riders into that position.

I feel we have a serious lack of support for the team itself, right here and now.

For example, right now, we have no national coach. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere between how poorly we used to do in dressage internationally, and how much that changed when we consistently had a national coach who had actually been to the Olympics multiple times and coached many other riders to that point.

When we do have a coach, s/he is contracted to work with the team for a suprisingly limited number of days for a period of time before an Olympic games. Is that because such a person has so many other obligations and isn't available, because the horses should not be worked that intensively steadily up to the games, or is it just to save money?

I've watched for years our team selection results. I think it is too dominated by special interests. I think we send over too many old horses and too many green horses - I mean green to an extent that no rationally thinking person would expect them to do well.

I don't think a pastured breeding stallion with less than two years under saddle prior to the Olympics and virtually no showing should be on the team. I don't think old horses that have been doubtful for years should go, I don't think horses with recurring soundness issues should go. I would far rather not send a team if we are in that position. I would far rather withdraw a team than compete with a horse that shows up at a big competition with a problem that was not accounted for during the selection process. I think the outspoken rider who has occasionally been viewed by the organization as rowing his or her own boat a little too much, yet is winning like mad in Europe, deserves more support, 'organizational dynamics' aside. Honestly, I would far rather send a team of solidly performing, more average horses and score ok, than send over such an iffy team. If we don't have four solid riders and 4 solid healthy horses on a team, of course it means our funnel programs aren't creating enough depth, but it also means something much more immediate is very wrong.

[Tiki]

Posted by J-Lu
I firmly believe that if more American foals were exported to Germany they'd be more quickly bought by more Americans.

ABSOLUTELY!

Fifth, there are many nice young horse riders in the US but we often don't utilize them. One reason is that *some* who are identified as nice riders charge a freakin' fortune to take on and campaign a horse! Or give a lesson to others. How can a lower income breeder with a super horse afford this? Again, I agree.

Posted by Marydell
Fourth-- There are young riders and trainers that are so hungry for a chance that they will train/ride a horse that has promise for nothing. As long as it costs them nothing. I am NOT alking about a hobbyist but a pro. I have personally been contacted by two since this thread started.

Years ago a young rider posted on one of the boards that s/he was looking for a horse to train, without cost to the owner. There was no level specified, except that the horse had to be under saddle. This rider had been accepted with a really top rider and trainer as an apprentice and needed a nice horse to ride to both learn how to train and to improve their riding. I offered one of my very nice youngsters to this rider since s/he would be under the supervision of a top rider. I also told the rider that I would be more than willing to leave the horse with them, if it worked out, through the highest level they could go and, if successful, would not sell the horse out from under them. I sent photos and a video of the horse.

I got the RUDEST reply back that they weren't the very least bit interested in anything less than a really good PSG horse as they were hoping, within the year, to use this horse and trainer to get to the Young Riders Championship. Apparently not the least bit interested in learning about riding or training, only interested in the free use of a good horse.

However, this type of situation could be a really, really good addition to Marydell's proposal! Putting good young riders with our good young horses under the supervision of a top GP rider/trainer so they can not only ride these horses, but learn to ride, improve and train horses. Most of the top riders who have working student positions allow board for one or 2 horses, plus a salary of some sort and a place to live. If we could provide them with really nice horses to ride - and start a big step above foals with correctly started young horses - at least in the beginning - and move up, it might help get this program off the ground a little sooner.

Essentially all of the horses could be sold out of this program as they would all have good training and show records. All the horses would be very marketable and that one out of ten could go on for a better price to a top rider to finish it and bring it on. It would feed more horses into the learning process for young riders/trainers and get this program off the ground. It would work out for the horses as the young riders, good or not, wouldn't be struggling with trying to learn on their own or through clinics, to try to ride 'above their own level', but would be under the supervision and training of good riders/trainers.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Most of the top riders who have working student positions allow board for one or 2 horses, plus a salary of some sort and a place to live. If we could provide them with really nice horses to ride - and start a big step above foals with correctly started young horses - at least in the beginning - and move up, it might help get this program off the ground a little sooner.


That is certainly not true in my area, nor in FL in the winter where our top trainers are. Most of the time, the board is too expensive in these stables (which are not owned by the trainers) and neither the working students nor the horses' owners can or will pay the expenses on these horses while being ridden by a working student. I don't know how it is in other dressage meccas like SC, but I'll bet that it is not much different.

[Ajierene]

That is certainly not true in my area, nor in FL in the winter where our top trainers are. Most of the time, the board is too expensive in these stables (which are not owned by the trainers) and neither the working students nor the horses' owners can or will pay the expenses on these horses while being ridden by a working student. I don't know how it is in other dressage meccas like SC, but I'll bet that it is not much different.

I agree. Whenever I look at yardandgroom in my area it is usually either board for a horse OR salary - not both. Housing does not seem to match up with either. Every once in a blue moon there is a salary and board, but salary is maybe $100/week, which is barely enough to live on, even if housing is available. But I guess that keeps the kids to poor to go out after work and more available to work.

[Plantagenet]

for the record, Hilda Gurney has given her working students a place to live, money for food (no cigarettes, liquor or candy out of the food money) and upper level horses to ride and keep.

several folks on present and past GP long lists have been her working students.

I don't know if she's still doing it, but I suspect she is!

[Coreene]

With all due respect, sponsorship is not an honor, it is a financial arrangement. People need to look past this type of thinking. If you want someone else to pony up for these programs and can't find a rich individual who has enough $$ to give it away for no ROI, put together something with true return on investment and go for the sponsorships that work very well in European countries but never happen here - it's the same problem as individual sponsorships here, people think it's an honor and something the sponsor should be grateful for. Real life ain't that way. And if you look closely at the B group in Holland and Germany, who are not yet BNRs, you'll find that A) they also go after big companies because they give ROI and B) they realize it is THEM who should be honored, not the other way around.

[Eclectic Horseman]

With all due respect, sponsorship is not an honor, it is a financial arrangement. People need to look past this type of thinking. If you want someone else to pony up for these programs and can't find a rich individual who has enough $$ to give it away for no ROI, put together something with true return on investment and go for the sponsorships that work very well in European countries but never happen here - it's the same problem as individual sponsorships here, people think it's an honor and something the sponsor should be grateful for. Real life ain't that way. And if you look closely at the B group in Holland and Germany, who are not yet BNRs, you'll find that A) they also go after big companies because they give ROI and B) they realize it is THEM who should be honored, not the other way around.

Well, I guess Trilogy saddles thinks there willl be a ROI by sponsoring adult amateur Tami Hoag. Like she needs it....

Definitely a business arrangement there. But realistically--is the audience for equestrian sports really large enough that a cereal company will boost its sales by putting a dressage star on wheaties or cornflakes boxes? I don't think so. So business sponsors for dressage riders are generally companies that make equestrian related products and this is a relatively small market.

[freestyle2music]

All EQ-people could start with putting their savings/money ;) with the
banc(s) that sponsors the EQ sport. :lol:

Buying a trailer from......bla....bla....bla....................... ............

That the way it started over here. Maybe you all should stop analysing and start acting.

[Coreene]

And this is why the US will forever be devoid of decent sponsorships. :dead: My God, there could be a step-by-step idiot-proof template put in front of people and it still wouldn't work.

[YankeeLawyer]

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but I don't think the rider shouldn't get paid. I suggest that the top riders come down in their fees. Top riders cost ALOT of money. 2.5-3K per month. They put in about 45 min/day on the back of a given horse - and don't pay for the tack or the entry fees or the show fees...and yet *make their reputation* on the successful horses.

Actually, add about 1K to those figures and assume that the Big Name's working student will be doing a lot of the work with your horse, particularly if you are not around every day.

[YankeeLawyer]

Well, I guess Trilogy saddles thinks there willl be a ROI by sponsoring adult amateur Tami Hoag. Like she needs it....

Definitely a business arrangement there. But realistically--is the audience for equestrian sports really large enough that a cereal company will boost its sales by putting a dressage star on wheaties or cornflakes boxes? I don't think so. So business sponsors for dressage riders are generally companies that make equestrian related products and this is a relatively small market.

I disagree. Revlon has sponsored a GP horse and Rider combo (Lisa Tarnapol / Adam) and a polo team. Insilco was a big sponsor for many years. Mercedes-Benz. Rolex. Hermes (and only a very small part of its business is horse-related). A smattering of insurance companies. Granted, these companies have not focused on dressage per se, but dressage has grown a lot in this country even in the last decade. I could certainly see a luxury goods company being interested.

[StarDoozer]

Thanks you guys for thinking of me on the list of up and coming riders. :-) I am so fortunate to have my mom breeding incredible horses that I can bring along. A few we sell for very good money and a few we keep. It takes a lot of time and of course ups and downs but I am so proud and lucky to be part of the journey.

As an aside, unless a horse is really dangerous, I never turn away a horse to ride and I never turn away a rider to teach. I am riding a bit of everything right now.... because as much as I'd love to have a stable filled with international prospects I've always believed and will continue to believe that the journey is the most important part. If I can make the three-year-old Morgan saddleseat horse I'm riding more confident and quiet in his work that to me is just as fufilling as riding through a super test.

At the end of the day my goal is to be the absolute best rider I can be with horses that take pride in their work. All the rest is the icing. :-)

[Eclectic Horseman]

I disagree. Revlon has sponsored a GP horse and Rider combo (Lisa Tarnapol / Adam) and a polo team. Insilco was a big sponsor for many years. Mercedes-Benz. Rolex. Hermes (and only a very small part of its business is horse-related). A smattering of insurance companies. Granted, these companies have not focused on dressage per se, but dressage has grown a lot in this country even in the last decade. I could certainly see a luxury goods company being interested.

You have a point there--but aren't most of those companies sponsoring single events like horse shows and not individual riders?

I was unaware of the Revlon sponsorship of a rider-- would not be surprised if she was a company insider, because it doesn't seem that there would be a ROI for the company in that relationship since that is not a particularly well known rider.

[YankeeLawyer]

You have a point there--but aren't most of those companies sponsoring single events like horse shows and not individual riders?

I was unaware of the Revlon sponsorship of a rider-- would not be surprised if she was a company insider, because it doesn't seem that there would be a ROI for the company in that relationship since that is not a particularly well known rider.

Well, I know the people at Revlon and can make that same phone call. Ditto for a number of the other companies. At the time, the sponsorship made a lot of sense in the context of their cosmetics campaign. The rider even appeared in Vogue, as I recall. The relationships are built on networking; there was no "company insider", exactly.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Well, I know the people at Revlon and can make that same phone call. Ditto for a number of the other companies. At the time, the sponsorship made a lot of sense in the context of their cosmetics campaign. The rider even appeared in Vogue, as I recall. The relationships are built on networking; there was no "company insider", exactly.

I guess it could have been an experiment by their marketing people. But I assume that if they had sold a lot more mascara as a result, they would still be sponsoring someone. I'll bet Lisa Wilcox would sign on--and she'd be perfect. ;) :lol:

[YankeeLawyer]

I guess it could have been an experiment by their marketing people. But I assume that if they had sold a lot more mascara as a result, they would still be sponsoring someone. I'll bet Lisa Wilcox would sign on--and she'd be perfect. ;) :lol:

Lisa would be really good for a number of reasons. I could see Courtney or Debbie being great for them as well.

It was not an experiment, either. I am not in a position to discuss it on this BB but you are just going to have to take my word for it that when riders bother to take the time to develop good contacts and friends who have successful companies, these people can see value in backing them.

[Dressage Art]

Some companies have the "sponsorship programs" for their employees that they match. I used to work in one that if you were doing any Olympic sport, they would match your SHOW expenses 50/50. You had to go and show them your training plan and show schedule and such, you had to display their logo and other things. Since I'm an AA, and any sponsorship will make me automatically a PRO, I didn't apply for that program. But it's wasn't much advertised, you had to ask about it with in the company. My friend did it for her very first triathlon.

I don't know how Trilogy can sponsor AA and she can retain her AA stated - not according to the USEF rules.

[Dressage Art]

As an aside, unless a horse is really dangerous, I never turn away a horse to ride and I never turn away a rider to teach. I am riding a bit of everything right now.... because as much as I'd love to have a stable filled with international prospects I've always believed and will continue to believe that the journey is the most important part. If I can make the three-year-old Morgan saddleseat horse I'm riding more confident and quiet in his work that to me is just as fufilling as riding through a super test.

At the end of the day my goal is to be the absolute best rider I can be with horses that take pride in their work. All the rest is the icing. :-)Bless you for that! We need more like you!

Wishing you the best in dressage world!

[Dressage Art]

for the record, Hilda Gurney has given her working students a place to live, money for food (no cigarettes, liquor or candy out of the food money) and upper level horses to ride and keep.

several folks on present and past GP long lists have been her working students.

I don't know if she's still doing it, but I suspect she is!

Hilda is an exeption in so many ways, she is great and she actually did train 100+ horses to GP. Michael Poulin also has similar working student program.

[Marydell]

So many good comments!! THANK YOU to everyone for this great discussion!!


Actually, not looking at the situation strictly as a breeder at all. Don't forget, I do own one of those promising GP horses and need to figure out how to go about financing the rest of this experience LOL!!

I agree, we have an immeadiate problem of depth. I have no idea how to go about fixing that anytime soon. As a breeder, it is my mentality to think in the long term.

I also feel that I have a somewhat unique point of view. We have made the journey with a young horse to the GP and the promise of international career. When Don Principe was 2, he was very nice, but not mind blowing. You could not guess what type of riding horse he would be. At age 4 through 6, we only hoped he would be a good enough PSG horse. It was not until he was seven that the talent became obvious for GP.
So if this is the norm, and from what I have been told by many people who ride GP, that it is, then how do you find the special talent at a younger age?


I think part of the problem of finding young horses is that the ones who are "special" right now (Age 4 to 7) are most likely NOT the type of horse to go on to the GP with any measure of sucess. The reality is that you cannot tell if a young horse is going to be a GP competitor. I think you can only best guess, by looking at the natural and untainted by any training, ability of a foal. Remember that this thread is about fielding an internationaly competitive team. I fervently agree with Liz about the horse comes first and the journey should be the reward, but it is not what international competition is about. It is why there are always questions about classical vs competition dressage.

Our choice with Don Principe was to place him with a rider, Jim Koford, who feels the same way we do. Correct basics, no rushing, keep the horse healthy and happy. But at the level of international competiton, the time and $$$ needed to try to see if they, as a pair, had the right stuff, was out of our each. In order to make a living, the man has other clients and we could not afford to support him or even ask him to not honor his obligations to them. That would have been so wrong.
So right here, this talented, and I stongly believe gifted rider/trainer had to give up a wonderful oppertunity to proceed further.

I am sorry Tiki that you had that aweful experience with the YR. In addition to Brendan, there are 2 young women here in NC that have no interest in YR. They want to ride GP and are more than willing to take on young horses that are under saddle and train them up the levels. One is out on her own and the other is an assitant to a GP trainer. There is a young mother in GA that wants to ride young horses under the tutalage of a GP trainer in her barn. I guess, in essence, the type of rider/trainer I am seeing as the beginnings for these promising young horses is either a graduating YR( so no pressure to be at GP NOW) or a young 20 or 30 something.
People like Lendon Gray who runs an excellent program to reward kids, would know of people that would be suitable. Debbie McDobnald who has already made one rising star would also know what to look for. Robert Dover with his talent search.

Here is another part of why so many young horses do not go far. The "missing link"-- A lot of breeders do not ride themselves any longer ( most of us are older or have had injuries) so becasue of expenses, these horse are sent to "Cowboys" to be placed under saddle for the first time. Or the breeder themselves are a fan of "resistance free". Not to say these type of horse starters do not have a place, they do. But their premis is to put a "whoa" on a youngster so the next rider in the progression can feel "safe". Dressage horses need to be forward thinking, so from the beginning, these youngsters are taught the wrong thing when being aimed at GP. But not so if you are talking an ammie horse.
So the time to put that promising younggster on the track tos ee if it is of international quality is BEFORE they are backed.

The sponsorship thing is a tricky topic. I see both sides of this as an owner. If you do not have an inside track with a company, there will be no sponsorship $$ dollars. Someone pointed out that the companys who would get a ROI are equine industry. I can tell you from mine and other people's experience that those companys that do sponsorships do so in product and not dollars. This does not help to pay the bills or cover show expenses or training.

I guess that I am a product of an earlier mindset that sponsorship should be an honor. It is a way to support your COUNTRY and be patriotic. It is a way of giving back to our particular community of equestrians.
Perhaps a way to entice someone would be to somehow indicate in the name of the foals, the top $$ sponsors who put the initial money into the pot. For example (just an example-no intent) USET Sugar GMC. That suffix could follow that horse to it's sale at age 7.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[denny]

Those of you who came of riding age in the 60s-70s will remember the USET training centers in Gladstone, NJ (jumpers, Bert De Nemethy, coach), and So. Hamilton, Mass. (eventing, Jack Le Goff, coach)

You will also remember all the medals that those training centers won.

So it isn`t as if the USA doesn`t have the historical template for success.

[Coreene]

The sponsorship thing is a tricky topic. I see both sides of this as an owner. If you do not have an inside track with a company, there will be no sponsorship $$ dollars. Someone pointed out that the companys who would get a ROI are equine industry. I can tell you from mine and other people's experience that those companys that do sponsorships do so in product and not dollars. This does not help to pay the bills or cover show expenses or training.Marydell, with the greatest of respect, you need to look outside the box. Maybe in your experience there is no sponsorship $$ if you do not have an inside track, but if that was the case across the board then no one would have sponsorship.

I did a small show a few years ago that I needed sponsorship for. And I do mean a small show, because it was just local to our area. Two sponsors were horse related, and only one of those gave product. I had one of the leading fractional aircraft companies as a sponsor, an international travel firm, a big So Cal mortgage firm and three or four others. Because I went to them with a detailed outline on what the options were and what each level of sponsorship would get them for their money, it was not brain surgery for them and introduced them to a local customer base that they'd not previously addressed.

The problem, and it's not meant as an insult, just as an observation from years and years of listening to people moan about there being no sponsor $$ when I can get it sitting next to the pool with a cell phone, is that too much of the community has preconceived notions about what they think will work. You have already decided that if someone doesn't have an inside track, there will be no sponsorship money. Someone else already decided that since they won't put a dressage horse on a cereal box, then non-horsey companies won't be interested. And I'm saying that while people here go on thinking that way, there are a lot of European riders sponsored by American companies because they approached them with a good, concise proposal that showed them where their return would be.

[YankeeLawyer]

Those of you who came of riding age in the 60s-70s will remember the USET training centers in Gladstone, NJ (jumpers, Bert De Nemethy, coach), and So. Hamilton, Mass. (eventing, Jack Le Goff, coach)

You will also remember all the medals that those training centers won.

So it isn`t as if the USA doesn`t have the historical template for success.

I remember (though I was very, very young at the time ; )). And didn't the Team have a winter training facility as well (in Ocala or the Carolinas; I can't quite remember)?

[YankeeLawyer]

I did a small show a few years ago that I needed sponsorship for. And I do mean a small show, because it was just local to our area. Two sponsors were horse related, and only one of those gave product. I had one of the leading fractional aircraft companies as a sponsor, an international travel firm, a big So Cal mortgage firm and three or four others. Because I went to them with a detailed outline on what the options were and what each level of sponsorship would get them for their money, it was not brain surgery for them and introduced them to a local customer base that they'd not previously addressed.

The problem, and it's not meant as an insult, just as an observation from years and years of listening to people moan about there being no sponsor $$ when I can get it sitting next to the pool with a cell phone, is that too much of the community has preconceived notions about what they think will work. You have already decided that if someone doesn't have an inside track, there will be no sponsorship money. Someone else already decided that since they won't put a dressage horse on a cereal box, then non-horsey companies won't be interested. And I'm saying that while people here go on thinking that way, there are a lot of European riders sponsored by American companies because they approached them with a good, concise proposal that showed them where their return would be.

I agree. And even if we were to only rely on "inside" connections, look at who is involved at the highest levels of this sport (as well as throughout the amateur ranks) - a lot of top corporate executives.

[Tiki]

A lot of corporate wives ride horses. I bet lots of CEO's have a connection to horses through their wives and kids.

[YankeeLawyer]

A lot of corporate wives ride horses. I bet lots of CEO's have a connection to horses through their wives and kids.

As do corporate husbands ; ). I am telling you, horse shows are much better than the golf course for getting deals done.

[jdeboer01]

The Romney's (Mitt Romney was a presidential candidate in the last election) may be a good resource to contact. They have very deep pockets, and Ann Romney is apparently very dedicated to dressage. She has stated before that it is dressage that has given her strength and hope in her fight with MS.

[YankeeLawyer]

The Romney's (Mitt Romney was a presidential candidate in the last election) may be a good resource to contact. They have very deep pockets, and Ann Romney is apparently very dedicated to dressage. She has stated before that it is dressage that has given her strength and hope in her fight with MS.

They own Rafalca. Jan Ebeling rides for them. A couple of years ago Rafalca, a rising young star, did the test ride at the World Cup Finals in Las Vegas, and competed in the most recent World Cup.

http://www.theacres.com/news.html

[Kareen]

Sponsorship does not have to come in huge chunks. To sponsor a single test at any given little show doesn't cost a fortune. I have done it, it doesn't hurt. Obviously bigger companies expect bigger ROI if they put out serious $$ but I think the key is to raise the level of acceptance/popularity of dressage. And I'll say it again we are not on a good way in that regard which might be the cause for some of the sponsorship-problems :)
To Theo: Please don't say Germany when you mean Europe excl. Theos private property named Holland *LOL*

[DownYonder]

Let us not talk about the foals for any other discipline or any selectors for any specific registry. This will only promote some specific intrests DY. The people you mention are all Oldenburg and you know what a hot topic that is. Let us just keep the foal issue as general as possible for now.

I am most familiar with Oldenburg, which is why I mentioned the people I did. I would think that other registries also have inspectors with more than a passing familiarity with upper level performance horses.

And I do not know how we could get major corporate sponsors involved in helping to purchase/raise/fund top foals for just ONE discipline, esp. when that discipline has so little spectator appeal in the U.S. Major corporate sponsors are going to want bang for their buck, so are going to be far more interested in sponsoring jumping and reining horses.

All in all, corporate sponsorships for horse sports are very tricky, esp. in these hard economic times. Even WEG is having difficulties finding corporate sponsors from outside the horse world.

I have additional comments on various points by others, but need to leave in a few minutes, so will try to get back to this later today.

[MEP]

Well, Spruce Meadows is a fabulous example of equestrian sports benefiting from major corporate sponsorship. Every class has a corporate sponsor, the company's representative has a place of honor, the company is often discussed during the class, and the company's rep presents the trophy. Company reps and guests are feted and honored throughout the week's competition. Very, very impressive. U.S. companies sponsor classes at SM. Again, Coreene said it, they get a tremendous ROI.

I will also say that during the time Samsung sponsored the SJ elite nation's cup series, I ALWAYS bought Samsung products. I think I even wrote something in a product warranty registration saying that was why I bought my phone or whatever. (Unfortunately, I don't like beer, otherwise I'd buy Budweiser! :lol:)

[freestyle2music]

Well, Spruce Meadows is a fabulous example of equestrian sports benefiting from major corporate sponsorship. Every class has a corporate sponsor, the company's representative has a place of honor, the company is often discussed during the class, and the company's rep presents the trophy. Company reps and guests are feted and honored throughout the week's competition. Very, very impressive. U.S. companies sponsor classes at SM. Again, Coreene said it, they get a tremendous ROI.

I will also say that during the time Samsung sponsored the SJ elite nation's cup series, I ALWAYS bought Samsung products. I think I even wrote something in a product warranty registration saying that was why I bought my phone or whatever. (Unfortunately, I don't like beer, otherwise I'd buy Budweiser! :lol:)

These small steps are the way to succes when you want sponsoring.

I remember that the first years Nashua was sponsoring the Worldcup I was there together with a judge and an equestrian journalist to comment (via a close sound circuit) about the music, choreograpy etc... for the people who were invited by Nashua and didn't understand anything about dressage.

Theo

[Equibrit]

Would that be EDUCATION ?

[YankeeLawyer]

What about holding more dressage shows in conjunction with jumper shows?

[freestyle2music]

What about holding more dressage shows in conjunction with jumper shows?

Does this mean that you don't have this in the US. :confused:

[Marydell]

Actually Theo, we do not usually have multiple disciplines at the smae venue at the same time. In fact, the WEF showgrounds where the MAsters was held does run two(only2) during the whole season. They built another facility about 18 miles from that one, called the Brandon Center, so that the hunter people would nothave to put up with us lowly dressage folks.

DY- one of the reasons I would think that the people you mention, who do have wonderful credentials by the way, are not a good idea is the reaction you had when I said they were not ideal, which many people would have.. it is an obvious perceived breed predjudice( even if in fact they would not be so inclined)

Perfect example of what I am talking about with evaluating top GP prospects-- the thread on Fuerst Romancer winning the preliminary round of the World Champ for 5 yr YH. How do we know that this horse, or any of his offspring, will be a GP competitor at the international level? You have to go back a way in the pedigree before you find the blood "R" that does produce this, but it is there. But there are the riders already drooling over the 1st yr foals and the stallion himself.


Let us just focus on the main issue of this thread--getting the good horses into the best rider's hands. For now, let the foal issue resolve itself if this is even a viable outline. Finding all the flaws and ironing out details at this time is counterproductive.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarms.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[LexInVA]

Does this mean that you don't have this in the US. :confused:

Sorta. Dressage and jumping are typically only packaged together with Cross Country riding as part of Eventing/Combined Training events or the occasional infrequent "Combined Test" events which are just showjumping and dressage. Otherwise, you never ever see them together here. Straight Dressage riders do not usually have anything to do with either of those competitions except as onlookers or coaches.

[YankeeLawyer]

Does this mean that you don't have this in the US. :confused:

Very rarely. I was thinking that dressage could benefit from the "halo effect" of SJ in terms of sponsorship opportunities, TV coverage, etc. if the better competitions were held concurrently. The two disciplines are very segregated.

[canyonoak]

Here is an example of not shortsightedness but simple greed.

I have asked several show managers why they do not have a few dressage classes at their big jumping shows, just as I have asked several dressage show managers why they do not try to put together some big splashy dressage compeition/class at the jumper shows and the answer always comes back: the jumper show managers don't want to be bothered.

Period.

That is because we have no organization that can make them accept the larger picture--the health of equestrian sport and the need to 'grow' the spectator base,which is how they did it in Germany.

Show managers in the US only want entries--the threads on h/j forum are legion as to how little show managers put themselves out for anything other than immediate profit.

AHSA stood for American Horse SHow Association. USEF doesn't stand for much more.

We have to have a common goal of improving horse sport.

[Equibrit]

Let us just focus on the main issue of this thread--getting the good horses into the best rider's hands.


Unfortunately that is not half of the problem. First make an educated market place which will support a horse industry.

[YankeeLawyer]

Here is an example of not shortsightedness but simple greed.

I have asked several show managers why they do not have a few dressage classes at their big jumping shows, just as I have asked several dressage show managers why they do not try to put together some big splashy dressage compeition/class at the jumper shows and the answer always comes back: the jumper show managers don't want to be bothered.

Period.

That is because we have no organization that can make them accept the larger picture--the health of equestrian sport and the need to 'grow' the spectator base,which is how they did it in Germany.

Show managers in the US only want entries--the threads on h/j forum are legion as to how little show managers put themselves out for anything other than immediate profit.

AHSA stood for American Horse SHow Association. USEF doesn't stand for much more.

We have to have a common goal of improving horse sport.

I might be able to help with this. I know some of the managers of some of the larger H/J show series pretty well. I do know that often they are constrained by scheduling difficulties and limited stabling. I also know that at least some of these managers do like and appreciate dressage and have done things to promote that discipline, so I would start with those people. I don't think it is fair to attribute negativity expressed by a few show managers to all show managers. I have been very closely involved in horse show management and I can tell you they work extraordinarily hard for many months in advance of a big show in order to have a successful event.

[Equibrit]

You guys may benefit from reading this; http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/horses/topics/strategy.htm

You may not appreciate Government involvement but it may give you ideas, because you just aren't thinking right yet. In particular the Strategy Document.

[canyonoak]

Thank you, Equibrit!

THAT is what I mean about setting goals and co-operation.

[karin o]

I just read this and it is quite amazing. Is anyone interested in editing this into a actual plan ? There has got to be enough detail and reasoning here to make a proposal and plans. Just a push....

[Sandy M]

Well, let's see. No names here in order to protect the innocent and/or guilty. I was told by someone who met, at a big-time dressage event, a sponsor who has expensive, successful horses and the $$$$$ to support them and his/her trainer. At one point s/he asked said BNT to find him/her another good horse. BNT went to Europe, found something suitable, cost ---- Six figures. Sponsor said, "go ahead." Later, through crossed-up e-mails, sponsor discovered that horse had cost half that amount, but, what the hey - s/he liked the horse, and DID NOT CARE that s/he had paid twice the asking, nor did s/he care to question where the rest of the $$$$$ went. It's another world, folks, and one I can't participate in. Like most of us, I don't have the $$$, thus, not the horse, nor do I have the talent. *shrug* C'est la vie.

I may cringe at rollkur, and marvel at horses that are dressage trained but can only be ridden by Olympic level riders, but I just DON'T CARE about it much any more. My enthusiasm has been drained. It does not touch me. If we win a medal, fine. Loved Brentina. Don't like the tension I see in a lot of the other winning horses. But that doesn't affect what I do, and frankly, all the controversy is leaving me cold and not disposed to even follow what's going on all that much. I'll look at the video after the Games - Olympic, Pan Am, WEG - admire the beautiful horses - maybe like what I see displayed as "dressage", mabe not - and then move on. If I weren't so damned old, I'd go back to eventing, but not above Training Level or we're entering a whole 'nother area of controversy. Sigh.

[canyonoak]

<< Is anyone interested in editing this into a actual plan ? There has got to be enough detail and reasoning here to make a proposal and plans. >>


Oh, I'm game to do it <g> but --

A plan for what and to be sent to whom?

[pluvinel]

.... ....It does not matter if viewers understand the nuances or not; it appeals because it is beautiful to watch.
..... ♦

Hmmmm...beg to differ here....took the hubby to dressage at Devon this year. Hubby's comments were, "Why is that rider spurring his horse so much?" It was a legitimate observation by a person who has a great eye but who has no interest in horses.

The rider the observation was directed at was the head trainer of one of the top breeding farms in US riding one of their top horses.

Most people I know who are not dressage "afficionados" find that watching dressage is like watching paint dry....and that's on the positive side....

I've sat next to the uninitiated at Devon where they had very appropriate questions about how the horses were performing, how the riders were riding and yet these horses/riders were scored well. The questions dealt with horse stuck in piaffe, riders obviously heavily on the reins, excessive use of the spurs, rider's legs flapping at tempi changes....etc...

[Coreene]

I just read this and it is quite amazing. Is anyone interested in editing this into a actual plan ? There has got to be enough detail and reasoning here to make a proposal and plans. Just a push....

Yet on the other current thread regarding sponsorship you said you were already working on something about this exact subject, so why would you need someone to duplicate this work you've already done?

[MySparrow]

Because it doesn't attract big gun sponsors. And the reason it doesn't attract big gun sponsors is because it doesn't attract spectators. And it doesn't attract spectators because it is boring at the lower levels and exciting at the upper levels only to people who know what is going on. The average John Q. Citizen off the street doesn't have a clue why one horse places over another in dressage, and the subjective nature of dressage judging is further complicated by politics on the part of the judges. In jumping, it is obvious to everyone why one horse wins and another loses, so someone with no knowledge of horse sport can walk in off the street and understand in no time at all how winners are determined. Jumping has far more spectator appeal, so attracts more big gun sponsors, so purses are bigger and more plentiful - which in turn, attracts more owners/sponsors.

This is all very true and very well put. And I don't know that we can really change it without changing the sport. Perhaps this is the impetus behind the bigger, flashier movements and the driving force behind the whole rollkur issue (sorry!). Do we want/need to change the sport? Or do we just accept that it is what it is -- of interest only to some -- and enjoy that outsider status?

[slc2]

I don't think that hyperflexion is done in order to make dressage more appealing to people who don't know anything about dressage and whom sponsors are trying to get 'sold' on going to dressage events.

I think hyperflexion is done for one reason: to compete. I think the idea that people who use it have, is that it makes them compete more successfully.

I'm not so sure they are entirely using hyperflexion to make the horse lift its feet high in the air. I think they think it improves the entire performance.

People don't attend dressage events in the US for a number of reasons. One is that they are too far away.

Two is that they are too expensive for many people. People complained bitterly here about the cost of attending the World Cup in LA; it's not just tickets but also getting there and lodging. The events are often held in very expensive locations.

Three is that they are too infrequent in any one location, so it isn't a habit or a tradition.

Four is that there are very often no 'local heros' to follow as they progress.

Five is that there is very little web coverage, no TV coverage (in the sense of announcing the winner of the Pan Am games on the evening news nationally), no radio coverage.

Six is that there is nothing with the competition that involves the audience. Have a shetland pony race, something fun.

Five is that Colbert hasn't 'done' it yet.

[Alagirl]

I don't think that hyperflexion is done in order to make dressage more appealing to people who don't know anything about dressage and whom sponsors are trying to get 'sold' on going to dressage events.

I think hyperflexion is done for one reason: to compete. I think the idea that people who use it have, is that it makes them compete more successfully.

I'm not so sure they are entirely using hyperflexion to make the horse lift its feet high in the air. I think they think it improves the entire performance.

People don't attend dressage events in the US for a number of reasons. One is that they are too far away.

Two is that they are too expensive for many people. People complained bitterly here about the cost of attending the World Cup in LA; it's not just tickets but also getting there and lodging. The events are often held in very expensive locations.

Three is that they are too infrequent in any one location, so it isn't a habit or a tradition.

Four is that there are very often no 'local heros' to follow as they progress.

Five is that there is very little web coverage, no TV coverage (in the sense of announcing the winner of the Pan Am games on the evening news nationally), no radio coverage.

Six is that there is nothing with the competition that involves the audience. Have a shetland pony race, something fun.

Five is that Colbert hasn't 'done' it yet.


yep

Especially the bolded part.

[alicen]

Hmmm, Steffen Peters interviewed by Stephen Colbert?

[Coreene]

Haven't been to a World Cup in LA since 1995.

[karin o]

I read on this thread some new ideas, a group effort - no one person could have come up with all the material on this thread, then - thats the point. There is a lot of thought here < but it is not organized into an index for anything or for anyone. I tried to find one subject and could not locate it in the 12 pages. This thread also deals with new ideas for breeding, horse shows , broader topics - a lot of material away from the project we have in the works, that I was referring to. So, I hope that it's time well spent and that this thread can be helpful in the biggest picture. We are all trying to make our lives better with the horses, in this economy, for the future of our sports and our day to day work. If there are better ways to proceed, we certainly would like to have the benefit of progressive thinking, as I know show managers would appreciate this help too. karin offield

[fburton]

I'm not so sure they are entirely using hyperflexion to make the horse lift its feet high in the air. I think they think it improves the entire performance.
Inasmuch as that can be judged objectively, of course.


This is a really great discussion. I hope that in the not-too-distant-future, we can look back and recognize that this has been an IMPORTANT discussion.
It is, I agree - fascinating!

[slc2]

I didn't really explain that I don't think the average viewer sees ANY difference between an exaggerated extended trot and a classical extended trot.

It's all pretty prancing as far as the average person is concerned, if there's music playing, so much the better, if it's familiar music.

Further, we sound like a bunch of maniacs when a nicely dressed rider and prettily braided and groomed horse come out, prance around, and we complain about how he's prancing.

In my usual Gomer Pyle way I watched a skating competition with a friend who skates, competes and understands the sport. I'm sitting there going, 'Gaawwwleee! That's purty!' and he's going 'oh GOD here comes another triple, GOD it's ruining out sport....(judges marks displayed...) WHAT THE F? WHAT is that judge THINKING! Oh this can't be happening! Oh CHRIST! This is just like 1995! Oh GOD how can that fat blob win! This is a major scandal!!! Who The F bought off that judge!!!!'

And I'm sitting there going...'Gaaaawwwleee! That's purty!'

The average person does not and will not understand a technical sport in depth. It appeals because the horse is shiny and braided, the rider wears top and tails, and the horse stays in the ring. THAT'S your average spectator and always will be.

[akrogirl]

I didn't really explain that I don't think the average viewer sees ANY difference between an exaggerated extended trot and a classical extended trot.

It's all pretty prancing as far as the average person is concerned, if there's music playing, so much the better, if it's familiar music.

When I showed Mr Akro the video of Totilas's extended trot, his first reaction was "that's ugly!" Is he the average person? Maybe not, but he is also not a rider of any kind. Even so, he could clearly see the difference between what Totilas was doing and the wonderful, classical extended trot we saw a couple of weeks ago, and did a pretty darned good job of explaining the differences in what he saw ;-)

[pluvinel]

When I showed Mr Akro the video of Totilas's extended trot, his first reaction was "that's ugly!" Is he the average person? Maybe not, but he is also not a rider of any kind. Even so, he could clearly see the difference between what Totilas was doing and the wonderful, classical extended trot we saw a couple of weeks ago, and did a pretty darned good job of explaining the differences in what he saw ;-)

That has been my experience also. When I have invited "non-horsey" people go to Dressage at Devon, most of the comments are some question (for me) along the lines of, "is that the way it is supposed to be done?" when they see rider's flapping legs on tempi changes or excessive use of the spur.

A well-ridden (or even adequately ridden) test may not win first place but it should be self-evident to the (perhaps bored) uninitated viewer that it represents of some sort of harmony between horse and rider.

[gettingbettereveryday]

I think one reason warmblood breeders aren't making money is that they're breeding horses with inferior temperaments. If your in hand breed show carries with it the risk of getting killed or seriously injured, that's a sure sign that your breeding program is producing horses with unsound minds. Can you train a horse with an unsound mind? Yes, sometimes. Would you want to? Heck no. And the truth is that dressage requires tremendous focus from the horse as well as the ability to relax. If your horse is crazy, the only way it's going to be able to do that is on drugs. So start with temperment and breed something that is not going to get people killed or injured.

OK, I'm not a breeder. I'm not a top-level rider. But I had the great luck to take some lessons with a really wonderful rider who is probably headed somewhere famous one of these days. Her primary mount was a big, bold mover with a bit of an attitude. He would get fresh and do little bucks and baby rears and all kinds of shenanigans. She, of course, could ride right through it.

One day, I asked her why she kept him if he was so ungovernable at times. She said what *she* wanted was a horse that was just on the edge of exploding right out of the dressage arena because she knows how to channel that energy into something beautiful in the dressage arena. That's NOT what an adult ammie wants, but we're two different markets.

My current trainer, who really specializes in helping adult ammies achieve their goals, is looking for something entirely different for her people. Warmblood breeders are breeding mainly for the adult ammie market, but occasionally that special one with the exploding energy and the great gaits and that extra something comes along. Why shouldn't those breeders be rewarded for their efforts? And why shouldn't that horse have the opportunity to achieve the career it is capable of achieving?

It's just unfair to say that all warmblood breeders are doing a bad job or that they are greedy or that they don't deserve recognition or financial success.

[slc2]

I think all breeders don't complain when they produce a really superior animal that winds up being a great show horse.

But most of the horses EVERYONE breeds are 'average'. The exceptional ones are - exceptions.