"Dirty" landing problem

[AnnaCrew]

So, in March we took a gelding, 17,2 h, 8 yo from jumping lines. This owner, not experienced rider, was fed off with him and decided to send him to slaughter.

At the beginning he was very nervous of a rider, hard to saddle and bridle, panic attacks, especially the first few minutes of the ride and so, but at the same time very good on groundwork and really really sweet and obedient baby.

First thing we spent time calming him down and relaxing, now we can saddle and bridle him outside, in field, he is not running away under the rider when mounted and is much better in general. Still very hard to stop - he pulls like a train, but already is doing a bit better each day.

He spent a month at a trainer and some improvement had been achieved, but there are some major problems still.

The main thing is "dirty" landing after the jump. He is very keen jumper, great speed, can jump and is happy to jump anything, but when he lands, he lands basically on his mouth and rider can easy fly over the neck; he also has very "hard" mouth and is heavy pulling, another problem, but we are working on it. He is not an easy ride at all but well worth a try.

But what about this landing on nose? Had you had similar problems (training or medical) and had they been solved and how?
Here are 2 video from yesterday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1H8QaKjAb4&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnvbqkd8wvo&feature=channel_page

We really want this boy to do what he likes the most - jump, but we can not find what is his problem. Is it only training or you can see something medical? Any ideas and suggestions would be great.

[Meliora]

He seems like a good boy...but I would not be jumping him yet. On the video it seems like you have very little control on the flat going to the jump, around the turns and then away from the jump. He is very heavy on his forehand. I could not see what kind of bit you had on him, but perhaps something with a LITTLE elevator action (not a lot) might help. Also, gridwork to teach him to use his hind end. Right now he is just running through the distances, and jumping over his front end (that is what you feel in the air). Good luck with him, and I know you will get some other great suggestions fromt this board:)

[MistyBlue]

Most likely not medical...we used to call those Moles. Trying to dive for the ground. And yep, it's not only tough but can be chancy to ride.
Gymnastics, gymnastics, gymnastics...that's what has helped for me in the past. No speed, no courses for a good long while, just lines and then progressing to turns later on with jumps designed to rock the horse back and get his eyes and head up. Deeper seat, raise the hands a bit but bounces and lines where he *has* to look up and keep his head up all the time in order to see the next jump in the line without the rider holding his head up. Takes a lot of practice and repetition to get it to start sticking and working. And when they move on to smaller courses with more space in between and turns, if they start falling back on the habit then right back to gymnastics again.
And ibuprofen for the rider's shoulders. ;)
He's cute though.

[Einstein]

I see a horse who is running to the jumps and pulling his head down on the landing.
The rider does not have a secure seat and is allowing this to happen.
I suggest to take a few steps back, for both horse and rider.
The rider needs to work on not throwing his upper body forward. The horse needs more flat work, to get him off the forehand.
I agree with working on grids, this will help the horse use his hind end and think about where he's putting his feet. it will also help with the heavy forehand problem.
Some basic dressage work will help this horse to balance himself and teach him to engage his hind end.:D

[EiRide]

So, in March we took a gelding, 17,2 h, 8 yo from jumping lines. This owner, not experienced rider, was fed off with him and decided to send him to slaughter.
We really want this boy to do what he likes the most - jump, but we can not find what is his problem. Is it only training or you can see something medical? Any ideas and suggestions would be great.

I would wait until I had a better handle on his flat work before jumping, but, that said--on the flat, transitions, transitions, transitions plus tons of schooling figures to get him balanced and understanding the aids. As soon as he got heavy in my hand I would do add leg, soften, and do*something* different--a square turn. A circle or figure 8. A halt and rein back. ANYTHING to set him off his nose a little and get him to rebalance himself. At walk, at trot, and at canter.

When I was ready to jump him, it would be an easy cross rails here or there added into his flatwork at trot only. Be schooling the flat, pop a cross rail, go back to flat schooling--and DON'T go right back to the cross rail. Do more figures, transitions, things he should now understand mean balancing. When he is steady and settled, casually add in another and then go back to flat work. If you only get in a few cross rails at trot at first, don't worry. You have to take the fear out of this; he's rushing because he's all out of balance and doesn't know how to accept the rider's help. Probably has not HAD rider's help before you guys. Rehab takes a lot longer than doing it right with a horse from the start.

When he is trotting his cross rails calmly, you can start to do small gymnastics. At any time that he gets rushing, just head back into your flat work and do that for a while. I would only trot in until the whole experience is no big deal to him--he can canter in only once he can hold it together for approaching a gymnastics line at trot. Once in the gymnastic he can canter, of course.

Hope that helps.

[AnnaCrew]

Thank you for suggestions. In general yes, it was exactly what he was doing at trainer. And what he is doing at home. Since May. Without serious improvement. A bit better, but after 3 month work... He just wants to crush through the course over everything at max speed - and is really pleased with himself about that. :)

Yesterday we let him jump as I wanted to take videos and show here our problem child.

Trainer had serious blisters, husband has. Trainer even tried to use a serious bit (we don't as husband is not advanced for it and may cause new problems, we have for him one heavy, but not sharp). It worked a bit but still - he gets really excited.

OK, thank you, actually you made may day - if you suggest that's only training problem, we shall continue and hopefully in 5 years or so there will be some positive news to tell about him :D If not, my husband will have wonderful looooong and strooooong monkey hands :D :D

[MDPONYMOM]

Anna, I don't have anywhere near the experience that some of the others that have answered you have, BUT we have a similar situation with DD's pony. She is just really starting to see some progress after almost a year of following a similar program of lots of flatwork and trotting single jumps. Pony barely did lines for almost six months. Just lots and lots and lots of singles and then flatwork in between. However, it is coming together for them - it just take LOTS of time.

[AnnaCrew]

Thank you :) It really gives me some hope because I'm getting a bit frustrated with him - such a sweetheart on ground and such a banshee with rider - when breeder sold him at 4, he was OK, but last 4 years with "interesting" rider had done this to him.
Here he was at trainer - flatwork, flatwork and more flatwork :)
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/ozolkalni/21-06-09/PICT2311.jpg
and here with our other horse, mare, who is doing well
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/ozolkalni/07-07-09/PICT3450.jpg

[AnotherRound]

I agree with those who said he sounds like a good boy, but he needs time, Anna. I would not be jumping this horse. He needs months and months of riding, quiet, arena, dressage, learn to use his body, listen, etc. He needs to be ridden quietly at trots, serpentines, canters, halts, transitions, over ground poles, till he calms down and trusts his rider, and forget the fences til next spring, you can try some cross rails if he is quiet and learning his flatwork, and only once in a while. Please go slow. He doesn't know what is expected of him at all. Just stop, bring him back. Start from the begining, give him a couple of years.

[dags]

Anna, I don't have anywhere near the experience that some of the others that have answered you have, BUT we have a similar situation with DD's pony. She is just really starting to see some progress after almost a year of following a similar program of lots of flatwork and trotting single jumps. Pony barely did lines for almost six months. Just lots and lots and lots of singles and then flatwork in between. However, it is coming together for them - it just take LOTS of time.

MDPonyMom, you have a very intelligent trainer.

That's a train of a horse, and I'm not sure gymnastics are going to do anything to stop it quite yet. Just as MDPM suggested, trot fences mixed in with flatwork. Popping over them like they are no big deal, until he rides the same up to, over, and away from as he does on the flat. Then I would move to lines, trotting in and either halting, relaxing, and walking out of the lines or downward transition to trot after first fence, circle until horse is relaxed again, and then trotting out of the line. When he can trot in, downward, and trot out straight without the hype I'd finally consider cantering out in an easy add.

Then I would add the gymnastics.

I don't really see him as one that totally nose dives in the air. Only saw it when the rider missed to the last fence in the first video and he just wasn't balanced to begin with in the second. 80% of his weight is in front of the rider's leg, pretty much no choice but for it to teeter-totter out of the air before the hind end has finished the jump . . . thus no hind end there on landing, and the only thing left to stand on is his nose :)

[LetsRide]

Have a Veterinarian check this horse throughly especially for possible stifle problems / soreness. :)

[TSWJB]

that horse is soooo unbalanced on his front end. you see him carening around the corners trying to get his balance. the trainer is running him at his jumps. i think the horse is very nice looking and i would do tons of basic dressage. and cavalleti work and poles. i would not jump until the horse develops some balance. then i would do trotting work jumping. with lots of gymnastics and single crossrails. from there i would progess to trotting in and cantering out.
he is a nice horse, but you need to put some time in before he is ready to jump around courses.
good luck!

[MintHillFarm]

Flat work, flat work and more flat work. I would not jump for awhile.

He looks like a very good guy. He needs to learn to canter on his own... It seems he has been pulled on and has learned to lean. You need to learn to not get caught up in that dance.

I would recommend lessons with a good professional. Lots of flat work, transitions, circles and poles on the ground (later after the canter gets confirmed).

[AppendixQHLover]

I can't see the videos at work but I have to agree with everybody from the description. Take a break from the jumping all together and get him working perfect on the flat. As my trainer says...jumping is just flatwork with obstacles. :D

[Roan]

I know diddley-squat about jumping, but I do know an unbalanced rider when I see one.

Rider needs to go back -- with horse -- and work on developing a more secure and balanced seat. Lots of dressage with a "real" dressage trainer to learn how to better utilize the core.

Just my 2 cents, take it as you will ;)

Eileen

[BLBGP]

The description of "great speed" caught my eye before I even opened the video. He needs a lot of work with basic flatwork and his rider needs to learn to relax and eventually lead up to trusting slow and balanced over fences.

[ThirdCharm]

Unbalanced horse, unbalanced rider. I would not put them together even on the flat if I could help it. Wouldn't jump until horse was much, much quieter in between fences and rider had a more secure lower leg to help keep the upper body where it should be. Horse may be pulling b/c rider is unable to follow the horse's jump (which is difficult when the horse is jumping like a cow--horse needs to do flatwork flatwork flatwork and then gymnastics gymnastics gymnastics to learn how to handle himself--and, horse may still never be an amateur ride. But he's not trying to kill anyone despite the issues everyone has pointed out, so maybe he's in fact inclined to be quite forgiving).

If he just came in March, from 4 years under a bad rider, I would expect to wait a loooong time before he saw a jump. Like, next spring maybe. He has a lot of baggage to wade through.

Jennifer

[AnnaCrew]

Thank You! Great advices, I really appreciate them. Basically we are doing all of this - I was getting a bit frustrated as after 3 mo of training there are basically no big results. He is relaxed now with rider, that's for sure, but that's about all.

As I said, we allowed him jump yesterday to make these videos. And then back to basics. He is clever boy, he really is, but this unbalance scares me, and as there were no visible results even after trainer... I really started to worry that by some reason he might be hopeless. But all what you pointed gives us hope! Thank You all!

[Meliora]

OK...I hate trainer bashing, and I don't believe in it. With that said, please explain to me the theory behind using draw reins on a heavy (forehand)horse, and pulling the horse behind the vertical. It may just be the angle of the picture, but it appears that the trainer has white draw reins, and is Teaching your horse to be heavy in the hands and behind the vertical (with the hind end trailing). Again, I do not know the whole story here...just my humble opinion (I am talking about the first picture that you posted.) If this is the case, I can see why you have made very little progress in 3 months. I could be wrong though:confused:

[Brydelle Farm]

This horse is landing heavy b/c his rider isn't releasing over the fence and it basically "balancing" off his mouth the entire ride. Horses don't pull, Riders DO!! To ride a horse that has not naturally or been trained "carry themselves" (ie engaging their haunches) then they NEED a rider that has a secure, educated leg and strong base, who doesn't rely on their hands to manipulate the horse.

I see a horse that stops quite well (as seen by when the horse comes to a stop with the ride barely in the saddle, foot out of the stirrup, and hands slipped to the buckle on the rein.

Even with that, I would like to see proper flatwork with cavaletti and gymnastics [with an educated rider], and wait for course work for sometime.

I am not one who feels 3 mths is that long but you might not being see results if you aren't doing these exercises recommended with an educated, proper ride. You are either training or untraining a horse when working with them, despite the best intentions.

I think you have a nice horse and wish you the best.

[jetsmom]

Agree w/the poster that said unbalanced horse and rider. Plus the rider is hanging on his mouth over the jumps. That will make the most good natured horse try to pull his head down when landing.

[JWB]

The horse is not balanced enough (with a rider on his back) to jump properly right now. It looks as if he is leaning the whole time he's in the canter - going downhill all the time. You mention that your husband is not too advanced... A very instinctive response to a downhill unbalanced horse is to take hold of the mouth and pull up. That only makes the problem worse though. Eventually the horse is always leaning on the reins and can't take care of itself without it.

Does the horse gallop around the field on his nose or is he relatively balanced when there is no human interference? If he's okay on his own but a leaning freight train with a rider, the problem is probably training and not medical.

1) Canter on the flat. Don't touch the horse's mouth. Make sure you're in a safe, secure place and canter a LOT. If you don't give him anything to pull on, he won't be able to lean. He'll get over the "yee-ha" excitement of being allowed to canter. He'll learn to take care of himself.

I spent a MONTH galloping around the ring on a "bolter" and while the first few rides were a bit hairy, he eventually became a horse that would canter around quietly all day long on a loose rein. I didn't work up to the canter, I came out and as soon as he was warm, we cantered.... We cantered figure eights and big circles, at first in patterns so big that he could get around on the wrong lead, and soon asking for transitions from the seat to do simple changes. When he can canter a 20 m circle, halt, canter a 20 m circle the other direction and halt without help from the rider, you can start picking up the reins again and working on contact and beginning to jump.

2) Work up and down hills. I would start just walking down the hills - but make him do it on his own, without the rider holding him up. I suspect he doesn't want to fall on his nose and self preservation might kick in some.

3) Do you have a round pen? Let him canter in the round pen without any gadgets, draw reins, side reins, etc. If he has trouble holding the canter, it's very telling of lack of balance. When he can canter well there on his own, put a rider on him. Again, LEAVE the reins alone.

The whole leave the reins alone thing is hard. It's scary and unnatural feeling but looking at your videos, I suspect this horse has a LONG history of leaning on the reins.

He may love the jumping but he needs to go back to basics and learn to carry himself and a rider on the flat before he gets to think about jumping. Dressage work will improve him a lot.

[rwfarm]

flat work flat work flat work. Learn to canter poles. After perfecting that..try jumping again under a good trainer's supervision. Looks like he needs a professional ride so that he can help his amateur.

[MintHillFarm]

Draw reins in inexperienced hands are like razors in the hands of monkeys...
That is what I was taught and believe to this day.

And Meliora is right, that rider has draw reins on your horse in the still photo. She appears too to be all hands; the horse is rolled over through his poll and behind the vertical producing nothing that is really correct...I hope you take the advice of the others on this post and begin good, consistant flat work with no jumping.

He is a nice horse...keep us informed and let us know how you are doing! I would change your headline from "Dirty" which he is not, to "Confused". I do not see anything in the video that is mean spirited on his part...

[AnnaCrew]

Thank You! Actually he is pulling on reins with any rider - trainer included so it is not a novice rider thing, at least at present moment. Yes, he has LONG story behind him - a lot of money, not enough savvy and no idea about horses.

We do have large, fenced outdoor arena where we do things but not exactly a round pen. At the beginning he was pulling like mad all the time, on the first ride trainer had blood on her palms. Now he is quite calm when slowly walking - at least it is possible to walk him slowly. Most of the time trot is ok as well, but canter... He just runs and pulls like balancing himself on bite. On lunging lead he canters nicely and does not pull at all so it is riding problem, not balance per se.

Husband does dressage elements him until he calms down then over few poles and usually instantly back on dressage elements as he instantly gets excited. And pulling starts again. And this is going 5 days a week.

There is some improvement, as I wrote before in comparison how it was in March, but it is more bound and relaxing in general than riding.

But the main thing now - all your kind responses convinced me that he needs loong time for training and I can relax on medical problems (2 different vets had not found anything wrong, but I still worry in case he feel pain or something and just tries to run away from it). It is such a relief for me, people.

[GotSpots]

He can't pull if you don't give him anything to pull against.

Agree with everyone who has talked about flatwork here: he's not balanced, but it doesn't look like he's getting much help. I would have him in a ride with someone who is stable enough to let go and search for an elastic contact, rather than setting against him: he's big, he's strong, and he's going to win that battle. If he were mine, I wouldn't have him jumpng yet, and I would be thinking pretty carefully about who is doing his flatwork. Some good basic dressage would do alot for him, and patience - he's probably never had to work through his topline before and those muscles take time to develop. Plus, when he's losing his balance and trying to go faster, he's also not really in front of the rider's leg - so you need someone who has the strength and patience and ability to wait it out and not be jarred loose (and draw reins are about the last thing I'd put on a horse like this).

He's a cute, athletic guy. Give him a chance to develop slowly and properly.

[Trees4U]

Start all over again- you have to undo everything that he has learned or allowed to get away with. Like everyone has suggested- lots of flatwork for a long time. trot ground poles. No jumping. He is running away with the rider and someone's going to get hurt.. I like the suggestion of an elevator bit- it won't work miracles but it might help you get him off forehand. He has to learn to listen to his rider- it looks like he never had to. On the plus side- he jumps from any spot so it seems he is not a stopper!

Good luck and be patient:D

[jambalayya]

I agree with Meliora. And just adding my opinion to the chorus that the horse's problem is his balance, which a competent rider must teach him, then maintain on him, and that balance is achieved through quality flatwork, not stronger bits, more pulling leverage, and more jumping. He doesn't have the basic education when there's no jump in the way, and putting a jump in the way will simply make him desperate to survive (as he appears in the video), not fill in the holes in his education.

He's a nice horse and will be worth the effort for you!

[kimball1]

From the background it looks like you might be up in the Quebec/Ontario region, which is not more than a day's drive from me. If you get fed up with him, let me know..I like :-), and know my trainer could fix this horse. Good luck with him, he looks like he is worth the time

[Kenike]

I'm not sure I'd even be cantering him right now, he's so unbalanced! He's definitely not getting any help from the rider in the video, especially OF, but that's only part of the problem. He's trying to evade the hands that are hitting him in the air.

Still, coming into the fence....WELL before coming into the fence, he almost appears out of control, due to his lack of balance. And he's all curled into a ball. Tons of trotting on the flat, *maybe* with a pole here and there, on a LOOSE rein for a long while will help. Then working up from there. Basically, what so many others have said.

[Eventingjunkie]

From the background it looks like you might be up in the Quebec/Ontario region, which is not more than a day's drive from me. If you get fed up with him, let me know..I like :-), and know my trainer could fix this horse. Good luck with him, he looks like he is worth the time

Well the OP's location says Latvia, which is a long way from Quebec. Probably she does not have the plethora of trainers we have here...and any information she can get from COTH is valuable and educational.

[jetsmom]

Husband does dressage elements him until he calms down then over few poles and usually instantly back on dressage elements as he instantly gets excited. And pulling starts again. And this is going 5 days a week.



I have a feeling when someone says a novice rider "does dressage" that they mean the rider pulls the head into a frame and slows the horse down, without using leg. This in itself can "hot up" a horse, and make them want to root, grab at the bit, or lay on your hands.
At this horse's current level (based on the short video), I'd say that the horse needs his head left alone, (no "Dressage elements" by novice rider), and needs to learn relaxation on the flat, even going so far as to encourage him to go long/low, relying on himself to balance. Half halts, circles, serpentines, lots of changes of direction, encouraging proper bend, and transitions will help. Trot poles will help.

[MintHillFarm]

And if you get tired of him, he can come live with me!

[Roan]

I have a feeling when someone says a novice rider "does dressage" that they mean the rider pulls the head into a frame and slows the horse down, without using leg. This in itself can "hot up" a horse, and make them want to root, grab at the bit, or lay on your hands.
At this horse's current level (based on the short video), I'd say that the horse needs his head left alone, (no "Dressage elements" by novice rider), and needs to learn relaxation on the flat, even going so far as to encourage him to go long/low, relying on himself to balance. Half halts, circles, serpentines, lots of changes of direction, encouraging proper bend, and transitions will help. Trot poles will help.

^^^^ THIS ^^^

Especially the long and low, which will teach him to reach over his back and balance himself.

My dressage trainer primarily does hunter/jumper, with the emphasis on jumper. ALL her students are drilled in basic "traditional" dressage, which includes much long and low (f/d/o), serpentines, bending, and seatwork. GOOD dressage is the basis for every discipline, IMO, for both horse and rider.

Eileen

[EquitationRider]

from what i see is a horse who is biting down and running and taking advantage of the rider. he is a beautiful horse but in my opinion is too much for the rider.
He looks like a really downhill heavy horse and i think taking time to expiriment with different bits will help. Having a very downhill heavy horse myself its amazing what a change in bit can do, mine started out in a Mullen Mouth Twist wich worked fine but he aventually progressed into a plain snaffle. but we relized that it wasnt enough...he was super quiet but could be a freight train in the bridle we are now riding him in a fullcheek Dr. Bristol which for now is a great bit!! i would expirement with different bits that have twists or a link in them for my leverage.

also it looks like the rider pulls the rein she wants to go instead of using her legs to turn the shoulder. basic dressage will go along way in lifting him and getting a straighter jump and better distances which will reduce pulling in air.

and have you thought about free jumping him to see if he jumps like that without the riders interference? if he does i would get a vet check and if hes sound except that that is how he jumps and work with it. if he doesn't jump that way try a different rider and saddle ect.

Hope this helps! and goood luck...he looks like he has a lot of potential!

[AppendixQHLover]

I did finally get to watch the videos. I think he needs to stop jumping for a while and work on his flatwork. He needs some dressage work to get off that forehand.

[applechick]

He doesn't look dirty, he seems to have a potentially really cute, energetic, and thrusty jump. And he's so willing despite the lack of balance.

His landing reflects the riding. And I say this with a lot of humility. This was my horse three years ago. My solution? Dressage. Galloping lessons. Hills. Poles. Tons of flatwork. Learning how to sit back, use the core and keep the shoulders back. All under the guidance of a knowledgeable instructor. These days I can demand my horse ride in balance----but I can't expect her to deliver if the load on her back (me) isn't balanced as well.

[baxtersmom]

Just want to add something I haven't seen mentioned: saddle fit, has it been checked by a professional fitter or saddler? My boy and I went through a period of pulling on landing, and while a lot of it had to do with strength and balance, MOST of it was because the saddle would crash the wither area every time we landed. Fitted the saddle correctly, no more pulling on the far side of the fence.

[DancingQueen]

Not having read all so sorry if there's a repeat.

I second those who said more flatwork and trot jumps. I would put the emphazis on helping him find his own balance on the flat and lots of transitions to develop brakes.

My advice when doing the trot jumps is to jumo singles at low speed and with a completely loose rein. Land "down' for a stride or two, then come back to a walk or halt on a straight line using the wall/fence if needed. repeat ad infinitum.
He needs correct flatwork to be strong enough to carry himself at a lower speed and he needs to know that he won't have to fight the rider to get across.

Train him like you would a hunter before you start asking him to do jumper stuff.

Good on you for taking on a reject. He seems positive enough that with enough patience and training he'll most likely make somebody happy down the line!

[Romany]

Lovely horse, and gorgeous countryside!

Lots of great ideas already, but I had a couple more thoughts:

Have you had his teeth checked recently by a good vet? Maybe his mouth is uncomfortable? Maybe try riding in a bitless bridle (hackamore)?

The rider might try lengthening his reins riding into the fence, so when the horse nose-dives after the fence he doesn't take the rider with him (or, if the rider was to let his reins slip gently after landing, it would have the same effect).

In the picture of you (?) riding him on the flat, the saddle looks like it might be sitting too far up the horse's neck, which might make him duck slightly in discomfort. Does the saddle fit the horse well?

I'm no expert, so these are very amateurish reflections!

[goeslikestink]

you need to go back to basic and get the horse balanced
look here ---- at my helpful links pages and read all of page 1 to include all links
you will see working diagrams to bits and bitting
furhter down on page 1 is lots of tips of flat work
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

then work the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw
when your ready to start jumpng dont do just any ol jump
but work up from ground poles in to small grids then a course of jumps

as the horse is rushing becuase he doesnt know and nor do you
as you not seeing his stride so the horse is taking you rather than you setting him for each jump-----

but you cant jump anything until you got the flat work in him
using the half halt stride- which is described on my helpful links pages

using the half halt informs the horse something going to change from either a faster to pace to a collected one or visa versa
if your trianer doesnt use or know how to use the half halts stride or explain it to you in how to then change your trainer
the half halts stride is used in all dsiplines and is one of the basic forms of command to ahorse as in basic flatwork education of horse and rider

you need to be using this in all transitons starting wth walk amd learn how to use each walk pace before trot then learn trot be canter and counter canter

using a square areanr so you can lenghten and shorten his striding with the half halts stride
this way the horse will leanr to use himself if hes fast or sharp as he appears to be then you need to be quicker wiith your aids using indpendant seat secure leg and soft hands

[AnnaCrew]

Thank you all - we cured his problem this morning in 5 minutes - believe or not. We borrowed bitless Cook bridle and tried - voila! No more pulling, no more balance problems, nothing - happy, relaxed horse over jumps, happy cantering, no problems at all!
No we must get a serious dental vet to find out what is wrong in his mouth, but anyway - now we have one very happy sports horse!

[xabbracadabra]

A new bit and dental work will not cure all the problems. You still need to go back and teach him the basics again and always keep working on them.

[JWB]

It's very possible that the bitless bridle exerts pressure on the nose such that it is physically uncomfortable or just strange for the horse to lean on it right now. That said, he may get "used to it" and learn to lean on that too. I put my pony in a Dr. Bristol and she was lovely and light in front but it didn't change the fact that she'd learned to lean on the plain snaffle, and eventually started to lean in the Dr. Bristol too until we fixed the root of the problem

I think you may be putting a band-aid on the problem instead of addressing the cause. I think if it was truly a dental problem you would see head flinging and lifting upwards, not leaning down into the bit as he does in the video.

[AnnaCrew]

I did not believe in these reins until we tried. It is different horse now, so calm and relaxed. Of course, we are back on square1 now and all training will be started from zero as it was pointed before, but now it is happy and RELAXED horse who does not need to run anywhere and is so happy working - walk-stop, trot-stop, canter-stop... Easy! Just ask, he will do everything. Now he listens commands and does what the rider asks to do, no panicking, rushing and crushing through the field and jumps. NOW the training CAN start.

It took him about 5 minutes to get used to new bridle and that was it. No pulling at all, and for the first time today I saw relaxed slow canter - you can easy see how happy horse was. Before we felt that horse is obeying better or worse, but obeying, it was not a friend and partner as our other riding horse is. Not fun at all, no happy work. I do not know how fast we shall be able to get the good dentist, but at least now we know where the problem is. It is his mouth and bad habits due to it. When the mouth will be sorted out then the normal basic training will be pleasure for him. He is so keen to work now, such a great difference.

[EquineRacers]

Agree with everyone!

Oh boy how Gorgeous Morris would love to take a look at this. Just as everyone else has said, NO JUMPING, back to basics. You have zero control of this horse and is completely unbalanced and just rushing and running and the jumps like no one is even on top of him. Boy needs MORE flat work and more training. Get him balance, supple and giving to the bridle before doing anything with jumping. Remember flat work must be soild to have a soild jumping round.

[AnnaCrew]

I'm not saying that he is ready now and all of that - but now we at least know what's wrong with this horse. He was given away after few advanced riders announced him hopeless (with several different ideas - including wobbler) and was going to slaughter as completely hopeless one.

We decided to try to save him, but yes, he was not basically rideable. On ground he very quickly become a sweet kitten - we trusted him with our 6 yo niece - voice commands he picked up instantly, sweet , obedient angel. All was changing when you get on his back. It seemed very strange for me - how horse can be so sweet and perfect on ground and so wild and crazy with rider. Checked his legs - nothing wrong, his back - again -nothing wrong. On lunging lead and halter e works perfect, nice jumps, voice commands - beautiful angel, put a rider on him and madness starts.

And now we know the problem.

How to better explain - it is no good to teach ABC to a deaf child again and again and get frustrated that the child is not getting it - child simply can not hear what you are saying. That was the feeling we had with this horse. To teach the deaf child the ABC, first thing is to get hearing aid so child can hear you and then you START teaching, right? So now we got a temporary hearing aid - the bitless bridle changed the horse completely - he hears you, he listens and does what you ask to do, no more pulling and crushing like mad.
So at least we know where his problem is - in his mouth. Good dentist is the most now. And then we can start training, but it will be piece of cake now - horse is very good, very obedient and picks things instantly - show him once and he got it.
And in comparison with our big girl who is plain lazy, this boy likes to work.

But our greatest you was just to see relaxed, not sweating horse with prick ears trotting around arena, learning the new bridle, responding to on leg commands better and better and in 30 minutes we achieved much more than in 3 last months. That's such a relief.

[AnnaCrew]

See, what I mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE1lR5loIhM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-1NF5BKdYc

[Quinn]

Agreed, he looks like a different horse. I would still support all who said "no jumping" for now. This boy needs to learn all over again. Without a solid foundation, you have no finished product.

Kudos to you for saving this lad Anna. Please encourage your trainers to take their time with him. In the end, I'm sure it will be worth it. Beautiful horse.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[jetsmom]

He does look more relaxed, which is great. But the rider is also not hanging on his mouth like the other rider was.

You might want to try putting a bit in his mouth with the headstall/cheekpieces from a bridle and putting the bitless bridle on top of it to see if he will stay relaxed w/ a bit in his mouth without it being pulled on. It will help you eventually transition back to a regular bridle.

[AnnaCrew]

before it was impossible not to hang on reins heavy otherwise rider will wake up in Timbuktu :) Now he is not pulling at all so he can have head and freedom as he is LISTENING what he is asked to. Probably it is not only bad habit but something is seriously wrong in his mouth and he treid to pull away from pain. It is only explanation that I can see.

At least now he is trainable. No more endless fight over nothing.

[LittleblackMorgan]

I see a horse who is running to the jumps and pulling his head down on the landing.
The rider does not have a secure seat and is allowing this to happen.
I suggest to take a few steps back, for both horse and rider.
The rider needs to work on not throwing his upper body forward. The horse needs more flat work, to get him off the forehand.
I agree with working on grids, this will help the horse use his hind end and think about where he's putting his feet. it will also help with the heavy forehand problem.
Some basic dressage work will help this horse to balance himself and teach him to engage his hind end.

Agreed...the rider looks very stiff in the hands and unforgiving. Perhaps if she/he stopped FIGHTING the head, the horse would soften