Rubindonnermeyer Hit?

[Forte]

Does anyone else worry that dressage lines are becoming too narrow? It seems like every stallion out there is either a Rubinstein, Donnerhall, Florestan, Weltmeyer or Sandro Hit son. What happens after a few generations? Who can you breed to without linebreeding very close? I have a mare with Florestan and Weltmeyer close up in the pedigree. I considered breeding her to Sir Donnerhall. But if I get a filly, who will I be able to breed her to? That basically just leaves me with R line stallions. Does anyone have any ideas on good alternatives to these lines? I bred my mare to Belissimo M this year (love that Bolero blood!) It seems like every stallion I like has either Florestan or Weltmeyer up close, so no good for my mare.

[stolensilver]

If you don't care about brands you have all the swedish lines. Master is a super sire as is Briar. And all the Trakehners. And there's the Quattro B line. And the E line. Those are just off the top of my head.

Or you could try linebreeding to an outstanding individual in the pedigree of the filly you've got.

[not again]

Maybe that is why the Bolero line is experiencing a revival. And the "Q" as well...just a thought!

[ahf]

Assuming you prefer not to shop domestically, I just hit the Celle stallion list and off the top of my head came up with 10 outcrosses. I wasn't trying very hard, and hadn't even scratched the surface of jumpers that had good dressage scores.

IMO, the gene pool "looks" narrow because of bandwagon jumping and internet hype.

But that's just my opinion.

[YankeeLawyer]

Assuming you prefer not to shop domestically, I just hit the Celle stallion list and off the top of my head came up with 10 outcrosses. I wasn't trying very hard, and hadn't even scratched the surface of jumpers that had good dressage scores.

IMO, the gene pool "looks" narrow because of bandwagon jumping and internet hype.

But that's just my opinion.

I agree.

[eyesontheground]

Am I crazy to think that a purpose bred TB would be of benefit here? (Does this creature even exsist? Maybe in Germany?)

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are "Hanoverians" in Germany that are 100% TB. I would be interested in seeing what they are doing.

[paulamc]

YOu can also use the Dutch stallions, the swedish ones like Amiral, Borsells briar is a good outcross too
Argentinus is another favourite
As has been stated, the Q line, Brentano, or you could always go trakenher, Gribaldi, Caprimond, Connery etc

Or go holsteiner, there are some really fantastic holstein stallions around, i am a great fan of their lines

And yes, use a Tb stallion here and then, or a half TB like Longchamp, and lovely babies they are too

Paulamc

[alexandra]

There are "Hanoverians" in Germany that are 100% TB. I would be interested in seeing what they are doing.
They are called Halbblut (halfblood), in a sort of own book with the hanoverians and are race horses. Except some bred by Mr. Butt who are 3 day horses.

[alexandra]

If I look into the list of the AHS, I can find quite a few stallions that are worth a ggod look ad have non of the above mentionend in their pedigree. There are some tht I would breed to.
"You" have an issue because a lot of imported mares had to have these lines. If yu check out the august auction catalogue you find a lotof foals from other bloodlines. I have e.g. A foal from a damline free of all the bignames. Foal is really a good filly way above avergage. But as dad is aso non of the flavour of the month guys we have not a lot of interest in her. She would make a super broodmare due to her uncommon bloodlines. But as someone said people are jumping on the band waggon.

[stoicfish]

Am I crazy to think that a purpose bred TB would be of benefit here? (Does this creature even exsist? Maybe in Germany?)

Lauries Crusador? But he raced first. He has 53 licenced sons but I don't know if any are all TB??

[Centuree]

Good question - I was wondering the exact same thing, except about Holsteiner jumpers. They all seem to have Cor de la Bryer, Caletto, Capitol or Landgraf. Difficult to find a top Holst mare or stallion without these lines - so what is one to do when the top stallions of that discipline have the same lines as the mare?

The majority of people are saying try a different registry, go swedish, dutch, full Tb or Trakehner? What else do people do?

[Dressage_Diva333]

I think there are still plenty of other options, here are just a few off the top of my head:

- Alabaster (though I've heard semen quality can be iffy, what a shame.. I adore him)
- Brentano II, Bellissimo M, Benidetto
- Fabriano, Fabuleux, Fred Astaire
- Hohenstein, His Highness
- Lauries Crusader xx, Londonderry, Londontime
- Matcho (Only son I can think of right now is Madison, but there must be more?)
- Pablo
- Quaterback, Quattro B, Quaterman, Quarterline, Quando Quando


I agree that the hype is Sandro Hit right now, seems like everywhere you look there is a Sandro Hit. Like mentioned above, there a few nice Dutch stallions available fresh/frozen; Ferro, Rousseau, Ampere, Idocus, Lingh, and probably quite a few others that arn't coming to me right at this minute. Hopefully soon we will have Totilas as an option as well :yes:


I'm sure there will continue to be "different" lines popping up with a new superstar here and there. I admit to not knowing a whole lot about Q line before Quaterback, then educated myself on it. There are also many other lines outcrossing into different breeds, like somebody mentioned. Personally, I still like a horse with a slightly older damline ;)

[stoicfish]

I am not a dressage person, but what are the stats on Sandro Hit that make him so popular? He has bred about a zillion mares, so are there many offspring at the higher levels? FEI? GP?

[Dressage_Diva333]

I am not a dressage person, but what are the stats on Sandro Hit that make him so popular? He has bred about a zillion mares, so are there many offspring at the higher levels? FEI? GP?

He has bred "about a zillion mares", not sure how many are at GP Level... the good ones seem to be sales toppers. He's also got a huge number of licensed sons already. He was the sire of the great Poetin, a superbly moving mare who tragically died of laminitis. I'll give him credit that when he does produce well, it's very good. However, I feel a strong damline is VERY important with Sandro Hit... perhaps more so than with many other stallions. He is known as a refining stallion, and *typically* produces long legged, black coated horses :yes: It's not hard to spot a good Sandro Hit out of a group of horses.

Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-44o3zV238&feature=related

[YankeeLawyer]

I agree that the hype is Sandro Hit right now, seems like everywhere you look there is a Sandro Hit.

There are not many Sandro Hit mares in this country with good damlines. There just are not. Try buying one. There are a lot of licensed sons generally, but imo the quality varies quite a bit.

Hohenstein does not freeze and his fertility rate with fresh is dodgy, so he is not a realistic option unless someone wants to import a Hohenstein filly or mare from Germany to have the bloodlines in a program. His Highness is deceased; I am not sure if frozen semen is still available. Harvard is a possibility.

[Olympussporthorses]

Escudo I or Escudo II?

[stoicfish]

Gribaldi has less offspring than Sandro H. but more competing at the higher levels. Why do NA's have a stigma against Traks, in general?
I realize most of you are breeding for re-sale and Sandro sells well, but it seems to me on other threads that we chastise ourselves for not have bred great horses like the Europeans and then in the next thread we are breeding more for re-sale, then for absolute quality? This is a general statement that is more of a reflection of what I have read. Not to say there are not NA breeders out there who worry less about foal sales and more about higher end competition horses.

[alexandra]

Lauries Crusador? But he raced first. He has 53 licenced sons but I don't know if any are all TB??

Yes there is a TB by lauries in Germany that himself is approved for WB breeding - don't ask I do not remember the name, but could look it up.

[Forte]

Some great suggestions here. I have already considered many of the stallions listed here, but their frozen semen is iffy (hohenstein, Gribaldi) or not available at all (Laurie's Crusader xx, Matcho) I think C-line holsteiner is a very interesting idea, and I like the idea of adding some jumping ability into the mix. Could anyone recommend a particular C-line stallion that would improve the canter, front leg correctness and length of neck? Bolero blood is also a great idea (mare is bred to Belissimo for this year, trying to get my hands on Benetton Dream for next year) From what I understand of the Quattro line, front leg correctness can sometimes be an issue, and that is also my mare's weak area, so probably not a good cross.

[ahf]

outcrosses that interest me... I added a couple more to the list I started in my head yesterday.

Alabaster
Balou du Roet
Christ
Conteur
Edward
Embassy III
Fabriano/Fisherman’s Friend
Le Primeur
Mighty Magic xx
Salieri
Quaterback
Robespierre - Rubinstein line, but pretty much an outcross.
Silvercup (Simply SM)
Siberschmied
Stenograph
Sunlight xx
Wishing Luck

keep thinking about Wilawander xx - can't quite put him on the list.

I'm expecting good things in dressage horses from the sirelines of Balou, Conteur and the Embassys. Time will tell if I'm right, or a schmuck.

[Kaluna]

I am not so worried about the frequency of this gene pool.

We are breeding for sport. Rubinstein, Donnerhall and Weltmeyer have more than proven themselves through the performance of their get. They also come from very very different background breeding programs so there is a loooooooong way to go before one should worry about a narrow gene pool. Selecting for these bloodlines is selecting traits for performance and temperament. I can't possibly see how this can be defined as 'jumping on the bandwagon' rather than chosing proven stallions with proven offspring.

Sandro Hit was a very very successful young horse himself although his value as a performance sire has yet to be solidified. However, he brings very successful jumping lines, such as Sacramento Song XX, Sandro and Ramiro, back into the equation for alot of dressage-bred horses. I believe this is a great plus. What percentage of dressage horses have Sandro blood if not for the Sandro Hit? Plus, Sandro was another sire who became famous based on the performance quality of his get.

I believe that we hear more about these stallions because it is easier to follow breeding and performance much more closely these days, more people are becoming educated about breeding for performance, and temperament is an increasingly important part of the equation since MOST sport riders (and horse buyers) are amateurs. These stallions might show up in the pedigrees frequently but the overall contribution of their blood exponentially diminishes as they show up further back in the pedigree.

So, I would not be leary at all about a Rubindonnermeyer Hit. I would be thrilled to breed him to my Ferrocaprioso II mare.

[YankeeLawyer]

Gribaldi has less offspring than Sandro H. but more competing at the higher levels. Why do NA's have a stigma against Traks, in general?
I realize most of you are breeding for re-sale and Sandro sells well, but it seems to me on other threads that we chastise ourselves for not have bred great horses like the Europeans and then in the next thread we are breeding more for re-sale, then for absolute quality? This is a general statement that is more of a reflection of what I have read. Not to say there are not NA breeders out there who worry less about foal sales and more about higher end competition horses.

I can't speak for others, but I do have some Sandro Hit line horses and I don't breed for resale; I breed to produce upper level horses. This issue re Sandro Hit has been beaten to death on this BB already but I will reiterate what I have said a number of times which is that it takes at least 10 years, typically, for a horse to reach GP, Sandro Hit was a late bloomer and underutilized until he was about 6, and most of his oldest foals are only now reaching the age/level where they would be competitive at GP. In addition, a horse's success depends a lot, indeed primarily, on the opportunities given it by its owner, so much depends on who ends up buying these horses. It happens that many of the young Sandro Hits are very expensive and are bought by amateurs with money, and not necessarily developed to their potential.

And by the way, I actually did not like Sandro Hit or his progeny until I actually came to own a superb Sandro Hit x Donnerhall mare that changed my mind about him. Not only is she an amazing riding horse, she is an awesome producer. I also have a very good Stedinger colt this year, but his dam, by Hohenstein, is exceptional.

Re Traks - people avoid them because they are ignorant. I have ridden a number of traks and do not find them more likely to be hot - in fact, most were very smart and very rideable.

[clint]

outcrosses that interest me... I added a couple more to the list I started in my head yesterday.

Alabaster
Balou du Roet
Christ
Conteur
Edward
Embassy III
Fabriano/Fisherman’s Friend
Le Primeur
Mighty Magic xx
Salieri
Quaterback
Robespierre - Rubinstein line, but pretty much an outcross.
Silvercup (Simply SM)
Siberschmied
Stenograph
Sunlight xx
Wishing Luck

keep thinking about Wilawander xx - can't quite put him on the list.

I'm expecting good things in dressage horses from the sirelines of Balou, Conteur and the Embassys. Time will tell if I'm right, or a schmuck.

AHF, where is Silvercup (Simply)? I haven't seen or heard anything of him since he left SM and wondered where he had landed. He sired some very nice foals who were well thought of while he was there.

[alexandra]

you have e.g. Bonheur in the Country, Cabalito, Bergamon, Contucci, Donovan, Glorioso Noir. Gold Luck, Liberty Gold (o.k. a bit more popular lines), Grandom, Rienzi, Sir Wannabe (loved his father !), Soleil Q.
I do not understand the thing about there are only Royal DonHitMeyers available. I would happily use one of the above if I would have a quality Royal DonHitMeyer mare.
Well exclude the jumpers of the list on the Royal DonHitMeyer, but for an equivalent jumper mare....

[RedMare01]

outcrosses that interest me... I added a couple more to the list I started in my head yesterday.

Alabaster
Balou du Roet
Christ
Conteur
Edward
Embassy III
Fabriano/Fisherman’s Friend
Le Primeur
Mighty Magic xx
Salieri
Quaterback
Robespierre - Rubinstein line, but pretty much an outcross.
Silvercup (Simply SM)
Siberschmied
Stenograph
Sunlight xx
Wishing Luck

keep thinking about Wilawander xx - can't quite put him on the list.

I'm expecting good things in dressage horses from the sirelines of Balou, Conteur and the Embassys. Time will tell if I'm right, or a schmuck.

Good list, I like a lot of the ones you listed.

Other outcrosses:

Contendro
Escudo I and II
Ehrentusch (based on the thread the other day)
Ferro
Fabriano (and sons)
Florestan line (Farewell(s), Fidertanz, For Compliment, Florencio)
Licotus
Lord Sinclair
Londonderry (and sons)
And a lot of the Dutch stallions...

Caitlin

[mmt]

Christ is also an interesting outcross (Competent - Picard). Super gaits, very good character, although the head could be prettier.

[stoicfish]

And by the way, I actually did not like Sandro Hit or his progeny until I actually came to own a superb Sandro Hit x Donnerhall mare that changed my mind about him. Not only is she an amazing riding horse, she is an awesome producer. I also have a very good Stedinger colt this year, but his dam, by Hohenstein, is exceptional.

Re Traks - people avoid them because they are ignorant. I have ridden a number of traks and do not find them more likely to be hot - in fact, most were very smart and very rideable.

Thanks for the input. And I agree about the Traks. My girl actually patiently puts up with me :lol:

[Forte]

Interesting that someone mentioned Baloue du Rouet. I have actually been considering him, or his son Banderas. Has anyone tried these lines for a dressage baby?

[YankeeLawyer]

Interesting that someone mentioned Baloue du Rouet. I have actually been considering him, or his son Banderas. Has anyone tried these lines for a dressage baby?

You might look at Sporting Chance Farm's website; Karin has bred a number of Balou youngsters and they are nice movers. I like him for dressage as well as jumpers. sportingchancefarm.com

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

Have you watched a video of Balou du Rouet? I watched a video of him a few years ago and though I am not sure what he is producing (other than seeing Banderas) he himself is quite a lovely mover!

[ahf]

Clint, no clue where he ended up. Celle still has frozen though.

[paulamc]

there is a very interesting son of balou du rouet this year - Bon Balou at gestuet vorwerk, out of an argentinus/landadel mare - clearly bred for jumping i guess but with amazing basic paces, check him out

Paulamc

[Crosiadore Farm]

Top colt at the German Foal Championships this year was a Balou/Quidam's Rubin foal. Also obviously bred for jumping but purchased by the Max-Theuer's as a dressage prospect. Will probably see this one at the approvals in a couple years. Now there is a real out cross!

Have seen video of Bon Balou and he does have amazing basic paces. And I like nothing better in a pedigree the Argentinus and Landadel. Two of my favorite in a dressage pedigree for sure.

But I agree there are plenty of wonderful outcrosses for the Rubindonnermeyer Hit mares, though to tell you the truth, some of the line bred ones are some of my favorite stallions right now. Stallions such as Royal Doruto(Line bred R) and Fuerstenball(line bred D)

The stallion station that brought us the Sandro Hit influx, and continues to do so today, also has out crosses available and waiting to use in the stalls next to Sir Donnerhall, Sandro Hit, etc. Stallions such as Bordeaux(United/Gribaldi) and L'Espoir (Lord Loxely/Warkant) or Bently, but he has Weltmeyer too close. Anyway, lots of lovely stallions but sorry, still none as impressive in the flesh as Sandro Hit and Sir Donnerhall. They(S line) have their weakness of course, but the "curb' appeal is undeniable.

[stoicfish]

This boy looks interesting Chequille Z http://www.brookhousestud.com/2007/_html/main.php?id=6&&taal=en&&page=hengst