Another horse in Miami butchered, this time a nursing mare [Archive]

Liberty

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:18 PM

...What I'd like to know is why the SPCA is saying the meat from the horses is considered toxic? Anyone have any ideas? My initial thought is that some medications (like antibiotics) indicate not to used if horse is to go slaughter.

Ever noticed that nearly everything we put ON our horses has that "not to be used on horses intended for food" notice? Then there are dewormers, various drugs, etc.

Then there's the fact that so most horses going to slaughter are simply bought out of an auction ring and immediately shipped to Canada or Mexico. There are no regulations regarding what the horse ingested just prior to shipping or what was put on the horse. Also, consider the sick horses that ship to slaughter. As horses are not considered food animals in the U.S., there are no USDA regs that apply to horsemeat as a food.

Look at this article on a food blog and then read the comments. It will give you more of an idea of why U.S. horsemeat is, indeed, toxic. Thing is, it sounds like most overseas places that serve it grossly misrepresent its so-called "purity". :dead:
http://danamccauley.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/horsemeat-yay-or-neigh/

In the above article, note the comments of the article's author and her husband, who just happens to be a chef with a restaurant that serves horsemeat.

Liberty

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:27 PM

Appalling.

On the video, they said people are selling the meat out of the back of their pick up trucks. Somebody there MUST know something about who is doing this. And who are the idiots buying the meat??

I wondered about that, too. Just how does one go about finding about black-market products? If the law enforcement in that area was interested enough, perhaps they'd be willing to try to infiltrate that market via undercover people.

It's gotten totally out of hand in FL with all these horrendous horse murders. I wish it could get wider publicity. If I were in that area, I'd be out with my horses every night with a loaded gun at my side. Anyone tried to come for any of mine, they'd WISH the cops had gotten to them first. :mad:

I do think that one way to help combat this would be from the demand side of things. Make it public and spread far and wide just where that $20/lb horsemeat is coming from and the dangers in eating it. Sad thing is that I doubt most who are buying it would really care where/how it was obtained, but they might sit up and take notice if they knew it could make them deathly ill.

I read about that mare and foal this morning, and I've been :( about it ever since. Someone's got to DO something about this. Florida horseowners need to band together and coordinate something since it appears the police have other things to do and aren't much interested.

You can bet that if it were people's pet cats and dogs being found in such a manner, more would be being done.

Dispatcher

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:38 PM

Maybe it's NOT making people sick. But good lord, butchering the animals in fields? Really, what do those "cuts" of meat look like? I doubt they look like that nice beef steak filet you see in the grocery store.

And the poor mare with the foal. Sounds like they went right into the barn and took her.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:43 PM

I am beyond appalled.

And devastated at how much this poor mare suffered.

I only wish the mare had been able to nail every single one of those bastards (pardon the language) before they got her.

danceronice

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:51 PM

I think I'd stake out the barn with a hunting rifle. Between gators and fire ants, they'd never find the remains.

thatmoody

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:52 PM

We are very worried up here, and we're quite a bit North of Miami (and they're weird down there anyway - our BO is from Miami!). Chain on the gate, check - big hound of the baskerville out at night, check - and we just reinforced him with another pound hound, so he has some pretty fierce backup. We also have a hired man with a loaded gun, so I think we're pretty ok (and the house is right beside the driveway and before the pastures - they're in the back of the property).

I really don't know what kind of sickos these people are - why aren't they butchering cows? I don't want the ranchers to be losing their cows either, but it was still better than horses.

When I worked for a big ranch in Florida, we had some beef cattle slaughtered, and through DNA testing they caught some guys selling the meat off the back of their trucks and convicted them - we were REALLY glad to see those scumbags put away! That was back in the early 90's, before DNA evidence was terribly common in livestock cases, too...

see u at x

Jul. 28, 2009, 03:52 PM

I am beyond appalled.

And devastated at how much this poor mare suffered.

I only wish the mare had been able to nail every single one of those bastards (pardon the language) before they got her.

The sh!tty thing is that these a$$hats are taking people's PETS. If someone, ANYONE, were to walk up to my horses and approach them calmly (and I'm sure most of the horses who belong to people on this board), they would go completely willingly and with total trust. Both of my mares would be thinking they were going on a field trip and snuffling around that person's hands or pockets for treats.

Most horses who are pets trust us so much not to do harm to them, and even sometimes when we make a mistake and inadvertently do hurt them, they STILL trust us. What a horrible way that these animals are being "repaid" for simply being good creatures who adore their humans.

Trevelyan96

Jul. 28, 2009, 04:00 PM

I'd like to string them up and let one of Eventer55's gator's chomp off pieces of them while THEY'RE alive. See how they like THAT. I know that I'm a horrible person for saying it, but I hope those subhumans die as horribly as that poor mare did.

CUatX, I think we were separated at birth! I have a very primitive sense of juststice!

spirithorse22

Jul. 28, 2009, 04:38 PM

This is so incredibly sad. I hope these sickos venture onto the wrong farm soon and that is the end of this.
http://www.justnews.com/news/20196651/detail.html#

Oh my god. :eek: That is the stuff of nightmares. Wtf 17 HORSES?! What is going ON down there and why isn't this all over the place? That is just disgusting, whether it was a dog, a horse, or a cow. I mean, seriously, that's absolutely disgusting.

I'm sorry to ask, but why do they think the mare was still alive when he/she/they were butchering her?

arabhorse2

Jul. 28, 2009, 04:46 PM

There are plenty of horses available for people to have processed for food, if that's what they want. Having a horse butchered for personal consumption isn't illegal in this country.

What I find appalling is that this was a nursing mother, and someone's companion animal. From what I understand, all the horses butchered this way recently were companion animals.

Instead of them buying a cheap horse and having it processed by a butcher, they STEAL someone's pet and carve it up. That's the problem I have with this whole scenario, not that people are eating horse meat.

I remember years ago when I was a girl, there were cattle being taken and butchered like this. I still remember my parents driving down the road with us kids in the car, and coming upon the rotting carcass of an illegally butchered cow.

Appalling, just appalling, as well as heartbreaking for the owners.

see u at x

Jul. 28, 2009, 04:55 PM

CUatX, I think we were separated at birth! I have a very primitive sense of juststice!

Trevelyan, I'm so glad that I'm not the only one! There's a reason my friend (who works for the military) made the comment to me in my signature line. ;) I'm not normally a violent person, nor do I typically advocate violent behavior, but when you mess with innocent people and animals, especially those who can't defend themselves, I get annoyed to say the least. The key is to not go off half-cocked, but to be cold and calculating. We don't have gators where I live, but 6' under and a bag of lime can do a lot of damage in a few weeks. Just sayin'....

STABLESWOT

Jul. 28, 2009, 04:57 PM

Butchering any large animal in a field, even at night in summertime South Florida proves the disregard or ignorance of the slaughterer. The temperature of 75 to 80 degrees F at night is mostly conducive to meat spoilage so there may be a team of people doing this both to cut the meat quick enough to avoid being caught and avoid spoilage. If they are not too ignorant to know about the concept of spoilage.

Where are these trucks they are speaking of? I am a lifelong Florida resident and I was born here, but never in my life have I heard of any ethnic group in south Florida consuming horsemeat. Most ethnic minorities I know of here tend to be very hard working and frugal and even if wealthy would not waste money on such high priced meat. Somebody needs to follow those trucks they sell the meat out of and see where they go.

Unfortunately there are significant numbers of individals in various South Florida subcultures that have religious beliefs that fit these crimes. They believe in a god named Chango and many still adhere to the belief that horse sacrifices are the only remedy for life threatening severe curses put on them by other practitioners of this ancient religions. To remedy certain curses they need horse blood and flesh for the ritual. Shamans require large volumes of this to serve many customers in the Miami area.

I heard this info from my best friends in high school who were Puerto Rican and my husband (a vet) who is from Mexico. My husband and I are anti horse slaughter tho. There needs to be police and detectives that are also horse people to FIND THESE LOSERS.

Condolences to the owners who must be beside themselves with sorrow. Somebody will eventually find this criminal(s). The police may show more interest with the added problem of a person selling illegal meat and defrauding buyers of this meat by selling something that can kill those who eat it.

They are also knowledgable about the possible occult spiritualism etiology because they have a special department in the South Florida police stations and courthouses to clean sacrificed chickens remains because this leaving of cursed sacrifices is so frequent!

Selling rotting illegal meat is sort of like the equivalent to selling drugs to people (illegal substance sale) PLUS
knowingly also selling lethal drugs to them (homicide). Maybe a police officer /horseperson or lawyer/horseperson on this board can indicate what laws are being broken plus the criminology behind these HEINOUS crimes. I have an agriculture animal biology degree and was taught by my professors that selling meat not inspected by the USDA is illegal if you charge money for it but is ok if the meat is given away.. but they were referring to beef. Horse meat is illegal free or paid for.

Lori

Jul. 28, 2009, 05:10 PM

One can only hope that the meat is toxic enough to knock off a few of the buyers.

equineartworks

Jul. 28, 2009, 05:29 PM

Being someone who was involved in upscale dining (still am when the spirit moves me) I can shed some light on why this might be happening.

There are secret dinner clubs called "movable feasts". They are usually hosted by an up and coming self proclaimed rock star chef who someone high up on the food chain has met at some party. They all get talking and come up with a top secret, ultra expensive culinary adventure.

The trend is the taboo...and what they are able to eat in Europe and Asia that we are not able to eat here. Foods are smuggled in and obtained illegally. These "parties" work because of the taboo and sometimes the legal ramifications for what they are doing. No one will come forward, even if they find something objectionable. There is too much to risk. The fun and excitement are in the thrill of the whole game...from the secrecy of the meetings, to the ingredients used and the way they are obtained.

Where are some of these "parties" the most prevalent? Any place where the young and very wealthy can found in large numbers...most anywhere there is a active high level club atmosphere. Florida has that...they also have a huge number of aliens (legal and illegal) working in the restaurant trade that have enough knife skills to be dangerous and enough need for cash to do the unthinkable.

I have had friends and friends of friends share with me all sorts of these "adventures". Needless to say...they aren't friends for long. :mad: I have "shared" information with authorities too...

God love anyone who might try to sneak up on Katie in the night...I wouldn't want to be them!

rcloisonne

Jul. 28, 2009, 05:48 PM

How about plant some slaughter house horses in a remote location wait for dark and use a nice weatherby with a scope. Then a quick trip to the everglades. . . just my brand of justice. Gators can pick a human clean in no time.
I like the way you think! ;)

This isn't about Voodoo gods and sacrifices. Good grief. It's about making money and something for nothing.

kookicat

Jul. 28, 2009, 05:57 PM

Oh my god. :eek: That is the such of nightmares. Wtf 17 HORSES?! What is going ON down there and why isn't this all over the place? That is just disgusting, whether it was a dog, a horse, or a cow. I mean, seriously, that's absolutely disgusting.

I'm sorry to ask, but why do they think the mare was still alive when he/she/they were butchering her?

Probably due to the blood splatter/bleeding. :dead:

Poor mare. The thought of baby trying to nurse has me choked up. :cry: Poor baby. I would be living in the barn with a loaded gun, and I would wire the damn doors to a nice juicy charger if I couldn't be there.

Laurierace

Jul. 28, 2009, 06:01 PM

My guess is they are not telling people the meat in question is horsemeat. Although I am truly shocked at what people will eat out of the back of some guy's car. The big thing in Baltimore is to eat Lake trout out of the back of a car. Um, no thanks!
Godspeed to the victims, swift justice to the perps.

TKR

Jul. 28, 2009, 07:06 PM

Dispatcher

Jul. 28, 2009, 07:34 PM

Antaeus

Jul. 28, 2009, 08:42 PM

Why doesn't something this horrendous and sensational make Headline News or CNN? And why don't the police go undercover to catch these bloodsuckers? I'd love to string all of them up and butcher them, part by part. PennyG

A few friends and I will join you!
The depravity of these actions, and the suffering of the poor horses makes me physically ill. Surely SOMEONE knows something that will lead to the arrest and punishment of these criminals...

equineartworks

Jul. 28, 2009, 08:44 PM

Upscale dining?? Are you kidding me? Any professional chef who would obtain meat from an animal that was butchered in a field in the summertime in Florida is hardly an upscale chef. This is surely an urban legend and not believable.

The horses being butchered in Florida are the work of sick, subnormal humans. I can't even fathom the reason for doing such a thing.

It's in the element of danger that they do these things...and no, it isn't an urban legend unfortunately. :( Its the shock value that comes from it all that makes it so thrilling for them. Sick and twisted but true :(

danceronice

Jul. 28, 2009, 08:57 PM

It's in the element of danger that they do these things...and no, it isn't an urban legend unfortunately. :( Its the shock value that comes from it all that makes it so thrilling for them. Sick and twisted but true :(

I can see the concept being done (look up ortolan and see why it's illegal in France and yet people will still try to prepare it under the table) but I have a harder time believing that horsemeat is that big a delicacy. IIRC, it's not illegal to consume horsemeat in the US, it's just illegal to operate a slaughterhouse that slaughters horses for the export market for humans. So were this going on, they could in fact acquire horsemeat by either buying a horse and having it butchered or, if they want cheap thrills, smuggling some in from Canada (where you can buy it in Quebec.) For people who are truly rich and interested in forbidden exotic foods, I can see things like ortolan or smuggling whale in from Japan. Horse meat acquired by butchering someone's pet in less-than-sanitary conditions is not a hallmark of the superwealthy getting forbidden-fruit kicks, unless they like the thought of possibly dying from rancid or contaminated meat likely hacked off the carcass in not-exactly-butcher's-cuts.

JSwan

Jul. 28, 2009, 09:15 PM

When I hear of violence or abuse of animals or children, my trigger finger gets itchy.

It is very very itchy now.

I fervently hope and pray these individuals are brought to justice. Frontier style.

spirithorse22

Jul. 28, 2009, 09:18 PM

There are plenty of horses available for people to have processed for food, if that's what they want. Having a horse butchered for personal consumption isn't illegal in this country.

What I find appalling is that this was a nursing mother, and someone's companion animal. From what I understand, all the horses butchered this way recently were companion animals.

Instead of them buying a cheap horse and having it processed by a butcher, they STEAL someone's pet and carve it up. That's the problem I have with this whole scenario, not that people are eating horse meat.

It's very creepy. Very, very creepy. I so wish the 'powers that be' would take any sort of animal cruelty/torture more seriously.

RainyDayRide

Jul. 28, 2009, 09:20 PM

Laurierace

Jul. 28, 2009, 09:25 PM

[QUOTE=danceronice;4268711 IIRC, it's not illegal to consume horsemeat in the US, it's just illegal to operate a slaughterhouse that slaughters horses for the export market for humans. .[/QUOTE]

Nope, horse slaughter is still perfectly legal in the US, there just aren't any slaughter houses in operation right now. They still flow like a fire hose over the borders.

Lori T

Jul. 28, 2009, 09:40 PM

I have been thinking alot about this issue, wondering what I would do if this crept into Central Florida..
To begin with, it is most likely the works of a Spanish culture..there is a large influx of Haitian, Mexican, etc. in Miami; cultures where they either are eating the horsemeat or sacrificing them. But I think it has gone beyond that...that whoever is behind this is getting his jollies off this. Yes, there are plenty of free horses on CL, but that involves trailering a horse home..and these people are just scum. I doubt they read the paper or see the news, so threatening them with the meat full of drugs isn't going to get to them, now will they care. They don't care about human life, why should they care about an animal? I am sure that once arrested, they probably have a long rap sheet.
As I said, what would I do? My first action would be to set up a task force. Contact all horse owners, rescues, riding clubs, law enforcement agencies. Find a pattern. Where are they happening? Under what circumstances? Is there a locked gate? Lights? Are they bold enought to go past secure measures or targeting just out of the way locations (I read some reports of horses being slaughtered in their stalls). What kind of neighborhoods? Secure neighborhoods? Are they killing only at night? I would then raise a large reward, print fliers in Spanish and target all the neighborhoods in the areas of the killings. Money talks. Someone will eventually know something.
Two Jakes? You are in the area...what do you think? You hold a government position, what do you hear?
I am just sickened about this. I am glad though that this board is not taking the typical attitude of Flahorse, which always turns into a pro slaughter debate. This has absolutely nothing to do with slaughter. I hope the scum are caught, but not by the police, but by a horseman who makes him live gator bait.

Angela Freda

Jul. 28, 2009, 09:54 PM

IIRC, it's not illegal to consume horsemeat in the US, it's just illegal to operate a slaughterhouse that slaughters horses for the export market for humans.
Slaughter for export is still legal.
Just the last 3 plants who did it are now closed.

gieriscm

Jul. 28, 2009, 11:42 PM

Yes, there are plenty of free horses on CL, but that involves trailering a horse home..and these people are just scum.

Not only that, maintaining a truck and trailer isn't exactly cheap. Plus, they would have to dispose of the remains, and that costs more $$$ which would cut into their profit margin. Far easier to just butcher someone's horse in the field, throw the meat on ice in coolers, and take off with no one the wiser. A few hours work could net thousands if the $20/lb figure is accurate.

As I said, what would I do? My first action would be to set up a task force. Contact all horse owners, rescues, riding clubs, law enforcement agencies. Find a pattern. Where are they happening? Under what circumstances? Is there a locked gate? Lights? Are they bold enought to go past secure measures or targeting just out of the way locations (I read some reports of horses being slaughtered in their stalls). What kind of neighborhoods? Secure neighborhoods? Are they killing only at night? I would then raise a large reward, print fliers in Spanish and target all the neighborhoods in the areas of the killings. Money talks. Someone will eventually know something.

You bring up some excellent questions, and sadly the articles are really lacking in these details. I don't know if that's because the cops are keeping them under wraps for fear of compromising the investigation, or if it's just because on the scale of murder-rape-kidnapping-robbery-burglary-drug user-etc "horse poaching" just doesn't rank very high on the list. :(

Has anyone tried plotting the locations and date/times of the incidents on a map to see if there is a pattern?

If this was happening in my area I'd be camping out in the pastures each night with a shotgun. :mad:

msj

Jul. 29, 2009, 08:44 AM

I fervently hope and pray these individuals are brought to justice. Frontier style.

Kinda like GW Bush was with Osoma Bin Laden - Wanted Dead or Alive!

I like the idea of feeding the gators to be honest - one bite at a time and starting with the genitals! :)

Angela Freda

Jul. 29, 2009, 08:48 AM

Not only that, maintaining a truck and trailer isn't exactly cheap. Plus, they would have to dispose of the remains, and that costs more $$$ which would cut into their profit margin. Far easier to just butcher someone's horse in the field, throw the meat on ice in coolers, and take off with no one the wiser. A few hours work could net thousands if the $20/lb figure is accurate.
Anyone know the avg. dressed wt. of a slaughtered horse of maybe 1000#?
Would you end up with 500#? And how many coolers does that require and how many men to carry it out- it just makes me think this is not one guy, or a couple guys- or if it is they are there doing this deed for a while.

msj

Jul. 29, 2009, 08:55 AM

Has a reward fund for the apprehension/conviction of these sickos been established?

and over how wide an area have these atrocities been occurring? does it seem to be the work of the same small group?

I'm with the 'hope a well-prepared owner finds them first' group...

If there has been a reward fund established, I'd be more than willing to donate to it. Does anyone have any information about that?

Right now I'm getting some dead and dying trees removed and the bill is going to come close to $1500. I'll gladly donate that amount to a reward fund. Anyone else interested?

Actually, I think I'll start another thread about that. COTH members are pretty generous so hopefully we can get some $ donated.

JSwan

Jul. 29, 2009, 08:57 AM

Anyone know the avg. dressed wt. of a slaughtered horse of maybe 1000#?
Would you end up with 500#? And how many coolers does that require and how many men to carry it out- it just makes me think this is not one guy, or a couple guys- or if it is they are there doing this deed for a while.

I can provide some general percentages for cattle - hanging weight and cut weight. Not sure how that would compare to a horse though. Very generally a 1100lb steer would give you about 450lbs of meat (cut and packaged). But they're bred to yield like that and that's why I'm not sure a horse would yield that much.

if the horse was killed and gutted on-site, they may have just dragged the carcass onto a vehicle and driven away. Then cut and packaged the carcass elsewhere after letting the carcass hang for a few days.

It would take time to cut the carcass into actual cuts that people would buy and it would not be done in the pasture. It is difficult to cut a fresh carcass that is in rigor - you would want the carcass to hang and then cut it up later. They may have killed the animal, tried to bleed it (or let it die by exsanguination), and then gutted it. That would have left a horrific bloody mess.

I'm making a lot of assumptions though. I'm assuming that they are being stealthy and that this is illegal butchering for consumption. So they'd want to do the deed fast, gut it, and haul it away as fast as possible, then cut it up and sell it at their leisure.

Sorry if that description bothers anyone.

see u at x

Jul. 29, 2009, 09:12 AM

I'm wondering the same thing as someone else mentioned - what about the national media? I'm thinking a show like Dateline or the NBC Nightly News...something like that. Maybe if several of us tried to email one of the correspondents directly? Even on the Today Show, someone like Jill Rappaport (who is a huge animal lover), might not be a bad choice. I wouldn't call her a "hard-hitting" correspondent, but some coverage is better than ZERO coverage, right?

I also like the idea of putting together a reward fund.

MistyBlue

Jul. 29, 2009, 09:14 AM

Considering the condition of the bodies left that the news photos have shown, I'm guessing they aren't getting much more than 200 lbs of meat tops. Possibly less.
Odd that in many of the news footage videos and photos I have not seen the tenderloin removed from the carcasses. :confused: The highest cost cut is being left behind in many of the cases, not the work of someone experienced with butchering.
These people doing this need to be caught. I can't even imagine the shock of finding a pet horse slaughtered. :no: :cry: Absolutely horrendous thing to do.

JSwan

Jul. 29, 2009, 09:25 AM

C I'm guessing they aren't getting much more than 200 lbs of meat tops. Possibly less.
Odd that in many of the news footage videos and photos I have not seen the tenderloin removed from the carcasses. :confused: The highest cost cut is being left behind in many of the cases, not the work of someone experienced with butchering.

I haven't looked at any photos - I'm glad you did because that's very telling. Again I'm making assumptions but I would think an illegal butchering operation would actually be trying to maximize profit and minimize risk. So they'd take the choicest cuts to make as much money as possible.

I wonder how these crimes compare to similar ones in cattle. Is it a similar scenario or are choice cuts taken and the carcass left, or is it a smash and grab type of thing?

:no:

asb_own_me

Jul. 29, 2009, 09:31 AM

I'm not normally a violent person, nor do I typically advocate violent behavior, but when you mess with innocent people and animals, especially those who can't defend themselves, I get annoyed to say the least. The key is to not go off half-cocked, but to be cold and calculating. We don't have gators where I live, but 6' under and a bag of lime can do a lot of damage in a few weeks. Just sayin'....

You rock.

I was practicing with my Sig two nights ago. "Paper Pete" was taking some major damage ;) Just sayin'....

ChocoMare

Jul. 29, 2009, 09:36 AM

Absolutely sickening :dead: - May the COTH Explosive Diarrhea Curse hit every one of those "people" first....then a one-way trip to the Everglades.

Cielo Azure

Jul. 29, 2009, 10:42 AM

Has the police department put together any sort of a description of what to look for? You know types of cars seen in the neighborhoods, tire treads determining car type, descriptions of the people, anything? As gross as it is, I am sure they could pick up finger prints/DNA on the carcass or on gates and start running that too. It seems like maybe they need some pressure to do more?

Astraled

Jul. 29, 2009, 10:55 AM

I'd never be able to sleep if I lived where this is happening. :(

Eventer55

Jul. 29, 2009, 11:44 AM

What happened to the baby? Did the owners claim her?

MistyBlue

Jul. 29, 2009, 11:45 AM

I haven't looked at any photos - I'm glad you did because that's very telling. Again I'm making assumptions but I would think an illegal butchering operation would actually be trying to maximize profit and minimize risk. So they'd take the choicest cuts to make as much money as possible.

I wonder how these crimes compare to similar ones in cattle. Is it a similar scenario or are choice cuts taken and the carcass left, or is it a smash and grab type of thing?

That's what surprised me from the first photo on the first thread about this...the style and parts of the butchering. I figured on the first one it was a last minute idea, smash and grab and no chances to do more. But to continuously butcher horses for meat...and never seem to take the better cuts at all...makes zero sense. IIRC, shoulders were usually gone and who the hell pays good money for shoulder? It's understandable that they hack it up quick and the animal is a mess, but they aren't taking the "good" meat. Mostly missing has been chuck, brisket, shanks and round. No top or bottom loins missing, no tenderloin missing. Are the customers for this meat as stupid as the butchers? Who the hell pays more than $4.99 a lb for any of those cuts? Maybe round, but chuck?
So the authorities aren't going to be looking for anyone with any meat cutting or butchering experience. Who ever is doing this knows squat about meat and those hack jobs aren't from trying to be fast as much as not knowing what the hell they're doing. It might be somewhat of a starting point for the authorities to look...it would make sense in most cases to look for someone with a previous or current job in a slaughter house, meat market, grocery or butchers if livestock are being attacked like this. But the carcasses aren't showing any knowledge of meat at all.
Not only are these complete asshats cruel and evil for doing this to people's pets...they're stupid as hell too.
The few times I've read about poached cattle meat (people butchering cattle in fields to steal meat) they've taken the better cuts and got away fast. Nobody is going to risk doing something that stupid for crappy cuts, who steals hamburger meat or something that requires a crockpot, a meat mallet, small explosives and a few cans of Campbell's soup to make something edible? :confused: :mad:
And I doubt they'd be selling meat straight off a truck bed. Otherwise the authorities can easily watch places with trucks selling things out of the beds and check out what they have. The morons have customers already, they aren't parking by the side of a road or in a parking lot with signs out hoping to draw customers like the fish and flower and t-shirt sellers around here are doing. Not only would they be too easy to find, cops always check those for vender's licenses anyways.
And I can't see the regular joe paying that much for meat, not bad cuts of horse meat. Maybe have the police check ethnic restaurants and the like? Who's buying this? Find the market for the meat, you can find the asshats procuring the meat. I'm guessing restaurant. Not high scale, because a $20 lb of meat ground or diced up and used in multiple $10 meals will make a profit. Average Joe worker buying a $20 per lb meat to take home for dinner and finding it tough as hell? Word gets around the meat ain't worth it fast. Somebody is processing that meat further and doing something with it to make it palatable. My guess is mid-level ethnic type restaurant.
Plus they have regular buyers...the story said 7 horses in the last month I think? That's about 1400 lbs or so of meat. In a month. They aren't off loading that much meat in a month by chance, there's a demand for as much as they're taking and they're profitting fast off of it...considering how many cases in a month. They aren't storing it for later sales. Regular client...check restaurants.

Liberty

Jul. 29, 2009, 11:56 AM

What happened to the baby? Did the owners claim her?

The foal is still in the owner's barn, but the unconfirmed latest I heard (from a very reliable source) was that a rescue organization was asked to look after it. However, the foal's owner wants $3K if anyone wants to buy it. :confused:

SuperSTB

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:25 PM

That's what surprised me from the first photo on the first thread about this...the style and parts of the butchering. I figured on the first one it was a last minute idea, smash and grab and no chances to do more. But to continuously butcher horses for meat...and never seem to take the better cuts at all...makes zero sense. IIRC, shoulders were usually gone and who the hell pays good money for shoulder? It's understandable that they hack it up quick and the animal is a mess, but they aren't taking the "good" meat. Mostly missing has been chuck, brisket, shanks and round. No top or bottom loins missing, no tenderloin missing. Are the customers for this meat as stupid as the butchers? Who the hell pays more than $4.99 a lb for any of those cuts? Maybe round, but chuck?
So the authorities aren't going to be looking for anyone with any meat cutting or butchering experience. Who ever is doing this knows squat about meat and those hack jobs aren't from trying to be fast as much as not knowing what the hell they're doing. It might be somewhat of a starting point for the authorities to look...it would make sense in most cases to look for someone with a previous or current job in a slaughter house, meat market, grocery or butchers if livestock are being attacked like this. But the carcasses aren't showing any knowledge of meat at all.
Not only are these complete asshats cruel and evil for doing this to people's pets...they're stupid as hell too.
The few times I've read about poached cattle meat (people butchering cattle in fields to steal meat) they've taken the better cuts and got away fast. Nobody is going to risk doing something that stupid for crappy cuts, who steals hamburger meat or something that requires a crockpot, a meat mallet, small explosives and a few cans of Campbell's soup to make something edible? :confused: :mad:
And I doubt they'd be selling meat straight off a truck bed. Otherwise the authorities can easily watch places with trucks selling things out of the beds and check out what they have. The morons have customers already, they aren't parking by the side of a road or in a parking lot with signs out hoping to draw customers like the fish and flower and t-shirt sellers around here are doing. Not only would they be too easy to find, cops always check those for vender's licenses anyways.
And I can't see the regular joe paying that much for meat, not bad cuts of horse meat. Maybe have the police check ethnic restaurants and the like? Who's buying this? Find the market for the meat, you can find the asshats procuring the meat. I'm guessing restaurant. Not high scale, because a $20 lb of meat ground or diced up and used in multiple $10 meals will make a profit. Average Joe worker buying a $20 per lb meat to take home for dinner and finding it tough as hell? Word gets around the meat ain't worth it fast. Somebody is processing that meat further and doing something with it to make it palatable. My guess is mid-level ethnic type restaurant.
Plus they have regular buyers...the story said 7 horses in the last month I think? That's about 1400 lbs or so of meat. In a month. They aren't off loading that much meat in a month by chance, there's a demand for as much as they're taking and they're profitting fast off of it...considering how many cases in a month. They aren't storing it for later sales. Regular client...check restaurants.

That was what I'm thinking... but more in the line of mobile food vendors, not even restaurants. Think roach coach or carnival vendors. They run on thin profit margins- so a hack and grab would be more appealing.

Why horses vs. cattle, well I can think of a few things actually. First of all horse meat is leaner- so let's say I'm a taco stand guy making shredded beef burritos- I'm going to lean towards getting the horse meat vs. the beef on a hack and grab mission. Then of course there is the 'handling' component. For the most part grabbing a horse is easier than a cow. Most horses are 'treat' trained, easy to lead, and very trusting. Could be that the person(s) responsible have horse experience and no cow experience- go with what you know.

This is very disturbing. I worry about horse theft to begin with but I'd just be beyond depressed if I found one of my horses in such a state.

MistyBlue

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:27 PM

Dammit...I just looked up all the news stories on the butchered FL horses. Every article that explains the carcasses or had photos or video show the same things:
Missing legs, missing neck parts and many with missing rump meat. 2-3 legs missing on almost all carcasses.
They aren't after the meat for the black market. Not at all, nobody is that stupid to take round meat, and then neck and entire legs. A couple were found dead from stabbing and only legs missing.
They're selling it to feed animals. Large animals. That require bone and bone marrow. My guess is 3 things:
Alligators being kept as pets.
Large exotics being kept as pets.
Dog fighting dogs.
Many morons believe in dog fighting rings that fresh bloody meat and large bones help "fit up" the dogs and make them somehow meaner and tougher. Many many morons believe this. It's not uncommon for the more money producing breeders and fighters to use cattle legs as snacks for their dogs. Toughens jaws and teeth and they often throw an entire leg out with 2-3 loose dogs and let them fight over it. :no: And these are the types of asshats who will pay higher amounts for crappy large animal parts. Either folks with exotic large pets who already have a tad more income than average (and who think it's cool to own a large cat or gator, freaking morons) or dog fighters.
I'd bet my farm that this isn't black market meat for human consumption. Legs? Neck? WTF can you do with a lower leg? Soup? Who the hell pays $20 or more per lb for soup bones and meat? They're taking large hunks of easy to butcher off a carcass but very tough meat or entire legs for dogs...or large cats. But my bet is dog fighting dogs, those owners are scummy enough to want to provide a market for the other scumbags to kill other people's pets. And as misguided and idiotic as parge exotic pet owners are, they're usually animal lovers to some degree. Can't imagine there are *that* many requiring dead horse parts off the black market in the last few months that hate horses and don't care if people's pets get killed.

trubandloki

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:32 PM

MB, lets just hope that the police down there are as smart as you. Your reasoning sounds very logical.

Dispatcher

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:33 PM

That's what surprised me from the first photo on the first thread about this...the style and parts of the butchering. I figured on the first one it was a last minute idea, smash and grab and no chances to do more. But to continuously butcher horses for meat...and never seem to take the better cuts at all...makes zero sense. IIRC, shoulders were usually gone and who the hell pays good money for shoulder? It's understandable that they hack it up quick and the animal is a mess, but they aren't taking the "good" meat. Mostly missing has been chuck, brisket, shanks and round. No top or bottom loins missing, no tenderloin missing. Are the customers for this meat as stupid as the butchers? Who the hell pays more than $4.99 a lb for any of those cuts? Maybe round, but chuck?
So the authorities aren't going to be looking for anyone with any meat cutting or butchering experience. Who ever is doing this knows squat about meat and those hack jobs aren't from trying to be fast as much as not knowing what the hell they're doing. It might be somewhat of a starting point for the authorities to look...it would make sense in most cases to look for someone with a previous or current job in a slaughter house, meat market, grocery or butchers if livestock are being attacked like this. But the carcasses aren't showing any knowledge of meat at all.
Not only are these complete asshats cruel and evil for doing this to people's pets...they're stupid as hell too.
The few times I've read about poached cattle meat (people butchering cattle in fields to steal meat) they've taken the better cuts and got away fast. Nobody is going to risk doing something that stupid for crappy cuts, who steals hamburger meat or something that requires a crockpot, a meat mallet, small explosives and a few cans of Campbell's soup to make something edible? :confused: :mad:
And I doubt they'd be selling meat straight off a truck bed. Otherwise the authorities can easily watch places with trucks selling things out of the beds and check out what they have. The morons have customers already, they aren't parking by the side of a road or in a parking lot with signs out hoping to draw customers like the fish and flower and t-shirt sellers around here are doing. Not only would they be too easy to find, cops always check those for vender's licenses anyways.
And I can't see the regular joe paying that much for meat, not bad cuts of horse meat. Maybe have the police check ethnic restaurants and the like? Who's buying this? Find the market for the meat, you can find the asshats procuring the meat. I'm guessing restaurant. Not high scale, because a $20 lb of meat ground or diced up and used in multiple $10 meals will make a profit. Average Joe worker buying a $20 per lb meat to take home for dinner and finding it tough as hell? Word gets around the meat ain't worth it fast. Somebody is processing that meat further and doing something with it to make it palatable. My guess is mid-level ethnic type restaurant.
Plus they have regular buyers...the story said 7 horses in the last month I think? That's about 1400 lbs or so of meat. In a month. They aren't off loading that much meat in a month by chance, there's a demand for as much as they're taking and they're profitting fast off of it...considering how many cases in a month. They aren't storing it for later sales. Regular client...check restaurants.

What pictures have you seen? I've looked at all the ones shown on the news links and most of them are unidentifiable as to what part of the horse you are looking at. Most photos are obscured with something--fencing, cloth, etc. There were a few that showed the horses legs but not much else of the horse was clear.

Just wondering how you were able to see what part of the horse was cut. I don't REALLY want to see any more pictures. Just curious.

Angela Freda

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:41 PM

MB that is very interesting.
Where would owners of exotics look for food for their 'pets'? I bet there are online groups? One owner tells another owner about a guy they know who has ___ meat for sale.

You would think the Miami-Dade AC would have come up with that hypothesis, and who knows, maybe they have?

wendy

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:42 PM

And I can't see the regular joe paying that much for meat,
if they don't know who took the meat and what they are doing with it, then I would guess the $20 a pound figure was simply made up by someone. My guess is some under-employed people who know nothing about butchering have found a way to make a quick buck selling meat for (most likely) really cheap prices (under a $1 a pound I would speculate wildly; if you're flat-broke making $250 off a few hours bloody work might sound very attractive to some) to some unethical eatery, that grinds it up and puts into dishes that use ground meats and possibly doesn't mention it is from horse. Alternatively some very hungry people are using the meat to feed themselves and their families. Maybe it's easier to catch and kill a horse in a field than a cow in a field?

JSwan

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:47 PM

MB - your posts are full of common sense.

If someone is indiscriminately hacking up a horse carcass and taking large hunks of meat and/or legs - it's not going to be for human food. Even if someone was trying to sell it as "ground beef" - um - legs??? Doesn't make sense.

Aged/infirm horses are fed to working dogs - but those animals are humanely shot at the kennel and then the meat is parceled out to the hounds. Meets their higher protein requirements but it's also a public service. Very humane and the owner donates the horse to the kennel. No poaching of some poor soul standing out in a field.

So yeah - if it's just hunks and legs I'd be thinking exotics or a pit bull ring.

Jesus.

RAyers

Jul. 29, 2009, 12:58 PM

I agree with Misty Blue. A good vet, vet student, tech, etc. can lay a horse completely open in less than 2 minutes. In the necropsies I was part of, we had the animal completely open, legs disarticulated and various tissues ready in just a few minutes. So, these folks do not know what they are doing and simply going after any meat. I hope somebody gets these guys with a shotgun before the police do.

Reed

MistyBlue

Jul. 29, 2009, 01:06 PM

Just e-mailed the South FL SPCA and authorities down there. Asking them to consider looking into exotic pets and especially dog fighting rings.
Dollars to donuts that's what the parts are for.
I understand that they might be selling it cheaper than the prices guessed by authorities, but they're not even removing the easiest meatiest parts of the animals. 2 horses were killed with stab wounds and only the legs removed. Who does tat for human meat? There's little meat there. The most common parts being removed are the legs and the stringiest part of the rumps and long muscles of the neck. Tough as heck meat. A fast filet right off the bottom of the belly and a very quick slice and removal of the loins is far easier and faster than the parts they're removing. They also have a lot more edible meat and less tendons and bones. The butchery is the same you see for exotic animals, at least the parts being used. Professionally processed meat for large cats is given the same way although the entire carcass is used. But the larger meat cuts are ground or cut well and preserved. The legs and neck muscles are given whole since that's more "natural" eating for the large cats. And also for gators. And especially for fighting dogs. For those familar with butchering out large animals (deer, elk, cattle, swine, etc) they know the neck (or chuck) muscles are very tough and very very hard to pierce and yank on. And the worst to eat *by far* for humans. These are given to animals who need to gnaw and yank and wrestle with their food. Or to fight over or play tug of war with. There's a reason chuck roast in a grocery store is cheap as hell. :winkgrin:
Whenever I have had a large carnivore in for rehab or for hold until it's moved to a sanctuary...I've gone to local small butchers for these exact same parts. I'm not a picky eater, but I'd never eat large livestock legs. :no: But if I had in a few wolves or hybrids in as a holdover until a sanctuary spot opened up to move them to, those are the parts I definitely want. Canine or large cats...possibly gators...not people food though. It's much easier to remove large chunks of better meat for people food and harder and longer to remove the crappy parts these folks are taking. If I'm butchering someone's pet in the open in the middle of the night on someone's property, I'm going for fast as hell to remove and best profit margin considering the risk...not the legs and necks.
Google Miami-Dade horse news...skim through a bunch of the articles. Only a few have photos or video showing carcasses, but if you enlarge those or stop frame them you can see what's missing. And some of the articles and videos state what was butchered off the horses. They're all roughly the same.
And doesn't it make more sense for a few moron dog fighting owners who make big money off their dogs to be the buying clients for this rather than immigrants paying for truck bed marketed horse legs and necks?

msj

Jul. 29, 2009, 01:08 PM

I agree that Misty's thoughts on this being for fighting dogs or exotic pets makes a lot of sense. I did send an email the news station that aired this latest piece (see the topic I started about a reward fund http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=216694). If this is the case, I would hope that those doing this be fed to the dogs or exotic pets themselves. :mad:

Liberty

Jul. 29, 2009, 01:08 PM

I think you're on the right track here, MB, and I'm glad you have contacted the authorities about it. Might be just the ticket to catching these heinous criminals.

Dispatcher

Jul. 29, 2009, 01:14 PM

that makes sense--butchering the horses to feed other animals. The investigators must be aware of this. How can they not?

gieriscm

Jul. 29, 2009, 01:18 PM

OT - when clicking the news links has anyone's browser been inundated with popups? I sent the stories to friends of mine in the area to ask them to watch out for anything unusual, and one called me very upset as she had to reboot her computer to stop the ads from appearing. I woudn't necessarily know if there was a problem since both my home and work computers are locked down with some pretty strict protection from malware.

I also hadn't considered that the thieves wanted the meat for anything other than human consumption - gators, big cats, and dogfighting just didn't occur to me. If I had to bet, I'd go with the dogfighting over the big cats, as aren't big cat owners licensed and subject to inspection by the authorities? So they wouldn't want a bunch of meat of unknown origin around if an inspector happened to visit.

I can say that from butchering deer, which is probably closer to horse than beef, we usually take the live weight and divide by 3 to get the meat weight. So, I'd figure a 1200 pound horse yields 400 pounds of usable meat, but that's if none were wasted. When we find a poached deer the head and cape are usually gone, along with the backstraps (loins) as that's the best cut of meat.

JSwan

Jul. 29, 2009, 01:21 PM

MB - glad you sent them an email. Since you'd have to know a little about butchering to figure out those kills weren't for choice cuts.... I'd not be surprised if investigators hadn't considered it.

We always tend to assume it's for a black market in meat for human consumption, don't we.

I think back to the size of Michael Vick's operation and then I think how much Dog Chow he must have needed for those poor dogs. Wouldn't put it past some low life to just obtain fresh meat; it's not like these folks are pillars of society.

danceronice

Jul. 29, 2009, 02:22 PM

Oh, geez, there's a thought. I didn't look at the pictures but legs and necks would be ideal for big cats. I can't imagine the legit gator farms going for it (those tend to get fed chickens, which are cheaper anyway) but someone with an illegal big cat...though what the h-e-hockey sticks are they keeping if they want leg and neck quarters from a horse? The only canid I can think of is a wolf, but with cats....hoo boy. Odds are they don't have an illegal pampas cat stuffed under the bed. (Totally inappropriate but I'm fighting the giggles at the look on a sand cat or pallas cat's face if confronted with a whole horse leg or a moose quarter or something.) Jaguar? Tiger? We generally don't get in carcas quarters for our big cats but that IS the type of cut you'd want if you were going to give them a whole haunch to gnaw on.

Letting fighting dogs fight over it, too, there's a gruesome thought.