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Rescue_Rider9
Jul. 28, 2009, 12:58 PM
I was looking on the HJ forum and reading the "Rant about judging rants" and it is apparently super common that HJ riders complain about their placing, but you don't hear too many Dressage (or Event) riders complaining about their score in dressage. Is it that Dressage is judged more fairly or is it that Dressage riders are just more laid back? I am not trying to dis HJ's in anyway... please no one take offense to this.. Just an observation.

eponacowgirl
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:05 PM
Objective judging.

You do a dressage test, you're given a number with a comment. There's not a lot you can complain about. Now, there have been times where I've said "Gosh, I really thought my horse's explosive buck departure would have resulted in something less than a five..." or "I really thought my halt should have been a 7." but the fact is, the judges eyes were on me the whole time and there is usually a reason next to why they thought that. And typically, if I go back and look at the video, I see what they saw.


Plus, we're not in the habit of thinking our horse didn't win because of clothes/helmet/color/who you know/money/money/money.

oldenmare
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:06 PM
Okay - I haven't been on a lot lately, but seems to me there is a post every week or so complaining about judging on this forum.

Of course there are complaints - good, bad or indifferent - a judge gives an Opinion (educated allegedly) on a performance.

And, as one poster has as a tag line: 2 horse people; 3 opinions (paraphrased to best of my recall).

I just had this discussion with close friend who shows dressage on Arab circuit - we were watching video her boyfriend shot at last show - he was approximately at "A" (behind ring, of course and a little off to side). Had to point out that what he saw was not same as what judge saw - because the perspective is different (for instance - the horse appeared straight from behind in halt - but judge said it was slightly off c-line.... as BF was not in line with judge - hard to see that on video from angle.

That is just one example of perspective and how it can affect opinion (we don't need to review her whole ride here).

AND it is amazing how people will not realize that their horse is falling in on the circle, or has a slight head tilt, etc - while riding - usually b/c so focused on remembering test (ok - that may just be me!). ;)

But yes - there are always complaints about judging.

These are horsepeople, afterall.

bort84
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:28 PM
Well, I think dressage riders do complain about judging, but not the same way that hunters do. I grew up riding mostly saddle seat, and there are always a lot of people in the ring at the same time, so the judge can't constantly keep his eye on you (even if there are 3). Your ribbon is your placing. There are no points and percentages to let you know why you placed how you did. In hunter classes, it's similar because there are not comments and points explaining your ribbon, just your ribbon. It's easy to say, wtf? Why didn't I place above that fugly plug that looks like a plow horse, or I should clearly have placed above that terrible rider on her 6-figure WB because she's just a rich spoiled...

I used to constantly gripe about saddle seat judging because it's VERY easy for the judges to use horses based on politics. The judges don't have to have the same kind of training to be judges, so they're all trainers and most try to do a little "I'll scratch your back..." In dressage, where you have to document why you gave the score you did, it gets a bit more challenging (though it's certainly possible to be biased due to politics and does happen).

But there are threads on here once a week about bad dressage judging... It just usually seems to be about how poorly the judges are judging really big names at really big shows = ) (Anky, Isabell, Edward, Steffen, etc...) Also, wasn't there just an update on that thread about the Barteaus?

Sour grapes are common to every discipline, but I think the COTH dressage board may have a slightly older average poster age than the hunter board (just from the posts I've read, this seems to be the case). I think there are a lot of younger riders on the hunter board, and younger riders can be prone to griping and not knowing how to be diplomatic just yet (happened to the best of us as younger riders.)

BuddyRoo
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:33 PM
I am approaching this from an outsider looking in because I haven't done any dressage shows but have friends who do. That, and I've shown other disciplines.

You know what I think it is? The FEEDBACK.

In most other judged competitions, there's no feedback.

If you're showing WP and you feel like you had a good ride but you don't place, you may not have any idea what you did vs what the winner did.

If you're showing in an Eq class, you may never know what the difference was between you and the other guy.

In dressage though, it *seems* to be less about comparing you to the other guy and more about getting feedback on your test. You may not agree with the score or even some of the comments, but you at least KNOW what the judge was seeing.

I think that in life (in general) people do better when they have constructive criticism or know the reason for whatever outcome they're experiencing.

My two cents...and like I said, I haven't competed in dressage. But I know that personally, I like the idea of getting that feedback and competing more against myself.

Gloria
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:39 PM
Oh we do complain about juding but it is just that in comparision dressage judging tends to be more objective. In dressage, you have a set of guideline to follow and every single movement is judged based on that guideline.

I also show hunter pleasures where a group of horses can be in the same ring. First of all, the placing in a group class has a lot to do with when you make your mistakes and whether the judge see the mistake when you make it. So a horse can have a complete blow up and still win.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon that the judges play favors (give well known horses higher placing or give horses under well know trainers higher placing). I have been to shows (even A rated shows) that it was obvious the judges decided the placing "before" the horses went into the ring. Some admit in private that they read reports before the show to decide who "should" win.

Equibrit
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:44 PM
The process, in dressage, is less open to abuse.

thatmoody
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:12 PM
There are two systems in place in Dressage - the scoring and the placing. While the two are somewhat related, they don't always mean the same thing to me as a rider. I was WAY happier with my 68.9% that placed 4th than I was the 62.8% that placed 1st.

And I always know why I scored the way I did - I'm way harder on myself than any judge is...

Carol Ames
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:29 PM
I think event riders are simply less complaining in nature :winkgrin:however /I do have a complaint about my score at my last event:yes: in 1994; :eek: As the woman who helped me at events said, why, if it was, and it was , the best test you've done this season why did you get the worst score:confused:? It was a question of "pay back" :mad:by a DQ judge who, who my little tb mare had beaten, at a dressage show on her hulking WB stud; she had been surrounded by her students/ clients, etc. and apparently was rather indignant that she, in her perfect dressage habit and tack, had been beaten by someone riding in a jumping saddle(!!:eek:) and wearing a XC helmet! :no: all I can say now, is that, the ride she judged was not the ride I felt or saw on the video:no:.there were two other judges at the event that day, both retired military and graduates:yes: of the cavalry school at fort Riley but, unfortunately,:o I got her

Carol Ames
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:31 PM
In dressage, you have a set of guideline to follow and every single movement is judged based on that guideline.

I also show hunter pleasures where a group of horses can be in the same ring. First of all, the placing in a group class has a lot to do with when you make your mistakes and whether the judge see the mistake when you make it. So a horse can have a complete blow up and still win.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon that the judges play favors (give well known horses higher placing or give horses under well know trainers higher placing). I have been to shows (even A rated shows) that it was obvious the judges decided the placing "before" the horses went into the ring. Some admit in private that they read reports before the show to decide who "should" win. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4267336)

Carol Ames
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:39 PM
A dressage judge does not know the placings until all tests have been scored:no: so, the judging is not ranking rides but, scoring, movement by movement

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:43 PM
Well I don't believe for ONE minute that dressage folks don't complain about the judging! Yes, the feedback helps lessen the blow of getting a 4 or a 5 on a movement, but there are also riders who "chase scores" and will go (or not go) to a show depending on how "generous" or "reasonable" the judge is - especially when trying to get the percentages needed to qualify for championships. There are several times where I thought the judge was biased, unfair, blind, etc. but I CHOOSE to show and thus, I choose to subject myself to the judging. If I really didn't like it, then I wouldn't show at all. Maybe dressage folks understand that mantra better than others?

What really pisses me off, however, is when you show for two days in front of the same judges and no matter what you do - their first impression sticks throughout the entire show. For example, the last show I went to I competed at 3rd level for the first time. I was making my half turn on the haunches too large and received 4's. Okay, so I grabbed my trainer and we schooled them for 20 minutes diagnosing the problem and fixing it. My turn on the haunches were 60% better the next day since I remembered to turn the shoulder first instead of allowing the inside hip to lead the turn. I STILL got a 4's! Did the judge not see how much better they were? Or did the judge remember me from the day before and thought "Oh, her turns are shit, give her a 4." Who knows, but it is much more frustrating when you know there is improvement and the scores don't change.

Beam Me Up
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:45 PM
I think I've seen more than a few dressage judging complaints on here (against certain breeds or training methods rings a bell) . . . but



You know what I think it is? The FEEDBACK.


Agree completely. The fact that everyone gets a posted score helps a lot (it isn't like in hunters where 6 people get ribbons and 20 people have no idea if they were 7th or last), and the comments let you know where you need to improve.

As for eventers (of which I am one), I think a lot of it is that it isn't over yet at the time you get your dressage score (you could still win!), and that more eventers than dressage riders take out horses knowing they'll be toward the bottom so the poor scores are not a surprise.

HenryisBlaisin'
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:54 PM
For me, it's because in dressage, my only competition is the test-I'm looking at my score and weighing it againtst my goals and expectations going in. I rarely see the other rides in my tests, so I'm not thinking, "well THAT rider fell in on her circle way more than I did," or "OMG, did you SEE her canter depart? How could she have placed over me after THAT?"

IMO, dressags is me and the test standard-and because you get your card back, you know why you scored the way you did. Ususally, if I'm honest, I know what it's going to say before I get it back. It's about my score on my rides, not about the color ribbon-I'd rather have a ride I'm satisfied with for ME and my goals and not place than win simply because everyone else made more mistakes than I did in that particulat test.

Wayside
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:13 PM
I think a lot of people have made good points here. Since there are numbers and comments, you have a pretty good idea why you placed the way you did, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.

Generally the few times I've complained about a judge it was because the comments were not constructive or helpful, not because I was peeved at the score or my place relative to the other riders. Once I got the comment "could have been better" on a movement :lol: I thought that part was sort of implied by any score less than a 10, and didn't really need to be stated. No other comment was given for that movement. Although I agree 100% that it could have been better, it would have been nice to know in what way it was most lacking.

twnkltoz
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:22 PM
For my friends and me, when we complain about judging, it's usually about one or two scores on a test--something got a 4 that should have been a 5, etc. However, in my experience, that is limited to just a couple of movements so the overall score is only affected by a small amount. It's rare that we think the judging of a whole test is off...I don't know if I can even think of a time when that has happened. Some judges are harsher than others, but they tend to be just as harsh with everyone, so you might get a low score but still place well.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:36 PM
'cause Sjef does all the complaining for us. :winkgrin:

CatOnLap
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:38 PM
You mean there is a group of riders out there who complain so much about judging that dressage riders look satisfied by comparison?

YIKES!

grayarabpony
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:46 PM
'cause Sjef does all the complaining for us. :winkgrin:

:lol: I like that.

goeslikestink
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:55 PM
I was looking on the HJ forum and reading the "Rant about judging rants" and it is apparently super common that HJ riders complain about their placing, but you don't hear too many Dressage (or Event) riders complaining about their score in dressage. Is it that Dressage is judged more fairly or is it that Dressage riders are just more laid back? I am not trying to dis HJ's in anyway... please no one take offense to this.. Just an observation.

perhaps its due to -- having constructive advice as terms of improve which most judges do but the perception of the rider treats it as contructive as a positive

rather than a negative and blames the judge cuase you didnt get anywhere

all boils down to the three p's
lack of preparation makes piss poor performance

merrygoround
Jul. 28, 2009, 04:12 PM
You mean there is a group of riders out there who complain so much about judging that dressage riders look satisfied by comparison?

YIKES!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Someone hasn't really been reading this forum. ;)

Janet
Jul. 28, 2009, 05:58 PM
There are LOTS of threads on the dressage forum complaining about dressage judging. But a significant number are complaining about the scores give to the top level riders, rather than their OWN scores.

JLR1
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:11 PM
I agree with twnkltoz...if you have a more stringent judge, it will effect the whole class and therefore even things out. I can accept a given score, but what is sometimes harder to take is a less than tactful comment.

ThatScaryChick
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:20 PM
There are LOTS of threads on the dressage forum complaining about dressage judging. But a significant number are complaining about the scores give to the top level riders, rather than their OWN scores.

:yes: I see lots of complaints on this forum as well. Maybe there is a bit more in the hunter/jumpers section, but dressage section isn't free from complaints.

twnkltoz
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:07 PM
I agree with twnkltoz...if you have a more stringent judge, it will effect the whole class and therefore even things out. I can accept a given score, but what is sometimes harder to take is a less than tactful comment.
Yeah, I think there's more complaining about off-the-wall comments than scores!

rabicon
Jul. 28, 2009, 09:14 PM
Dressage give you a test with comments. You know exactly why you didn't score better. Now there have been times when I rode a test (last show) and it was an amazing test for us but judge didn't see what I saw :lol: She was a hardddd judge and only 7 people out of 50 she judged broke a 60. I would have but we had a MAJOR booboo when I didn't notice I got the wrong lead and did the circe anyways. :lol: Whoops. So got 2 1's in the test. But she scored me harshly on the rest also. But she scored everyone harshly so she wasn't playing favorites :winkgrin: Anyways, hunters don't have a clue why the didn't place. Also I know the judge is watching me the whole time, unlike hunters so you can't fix something when the judge is looking at another horse. You better go in prepared and get it right or, well, your going to get dinged on it. I still think its done right babish to whine on a BB about you should have placed better. Esp. in a rail class with other rides, where you shouldn't have a clue who did better because you should be focused on yourself and your horse.

caddym
Jul. 28, 2009, 10:59 PM
allright, I post alot, but...MY....... personal complaints about judging is that for the most part judges use 5, 6, & 7, If you F-up you get a 4 and if it is AMAZING you get an 8. But you never see 0"s 1's 2's 3's or gawd forbid 9's and 10's

( I've been doing this a long time, I work verry hard to finance my riding and I have 2 very nice horses - yes LUCKY me:))

My younger horse has finally settled into the show routine and the last show got a few 9's in her tests ( - thank you Janet Foy) it got me thinking about the narrow range of the majority of my scores. I mean I F--- up a lot but I don't believe I have ever gotten a 1 or 2 MAYBE a few 3's. On the flip side, I'm a good amatuer rider, I have really 2 really nice horses....and I have never gotten a 10 and 8's are rare

I was thinking that it takes a judge with the abilities and confidence of someone like janet foy to appropriately use all of the scores - and that perhaps the judges of lesser experience would give a "9" movemnt an 8 (or 7) - as they are not hoping (or expecting) to see that their scores end up in the high 70's

Cowgirl
Jul. 29, 2009, 03:37 AM
caddym, Bravo! That is my complaint as well. The more confident judges will use more of the full range of scores; other judges stick by 5/6s and it's hard to pull 7s out of them. I like showing for FEI judges for this reason--they are more confident. By the same token, if you screw up, they will give a 1, 2 or 3! I really detest riding for the 5/6/7 judges because no matter how well you do, you can't get them to part with an 8. 5 if it's bad/6 if it's good is their comfort zone. They'll part with some 7s if your are really really really good. LOL! They might as well be asleep! Listen up you 5/6 judges! An 8, not a 6, means Good. LOL!

On the other end of my rant are the judges who ARE asleep and give automatic 7s and 8s and give scores out like Christmas presents. They get chased all over the region for their generous scores! Then when championships happen, those riders either don't show or get the mother of all wakeup calls and complain about championships being so "harsh". LOL! If you've ridden with good judges all season, you won't have any surprise at championships and it will seem just like a normal show.

slc2
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:49 AM
I would say that most dressage people complain CONSTANTLY about judging, it's only a very few people who read their test, take it and just use it to learn from. They're the ones that get better, and better, and better.

hoopoe
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:03 AM
A dressage judge does not know the placings until all tests have been scored:no: so, the judging is not ranking rides but, scoring, movement by movement


I have sat with enough judges to know some of them do have a system that allows them to keep track of where each horse will finish, based on the number 60.

One showed it to me. I quickly saw how it could be used and exploited to make sure the "right" horses finished at the top

Valentina_32926
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:23 AM
Less complaining by dressage people in part because when you register for the show you can see the names of the judges.

So when you see the name of a judge who: didn't realize you were sitting at X waiting to be waved forward because they weren't paying attention, is known to judge VERY harshly, is known to judge easier, has been seen falling asleep during tests, etc... anyway you get the point.

You compile a list of judges to avoid and pick your shows where the judging is fair (or unknown to give a judge a chance).

Going4Gold
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:35 AM
There are LOTS of threads on the dressage forum complaining about dressage judging. But a significant number are complaining about the scores give to the top level riders, rather than their OWN scores.

What else is new :cool:

paintlady
Jul. 29, 2009, 11:08 AM
I did hunters for many years - although I was never very competetive. I switched over to dressage about three years ago. I must say that I really prefer the judging in dressage. I have a "non-traditional" chestnut overo Paint mare. We never did well in hunter shows. I'm not sure of the reasons either since we go absolutely no feedback. We do much better in dressage. I think because the focus is on the movements and not so much the color of my horse. Heck, I've even gotten some nice comments from judges about having a "cute" horse. I really appreciate the feedback in dressage - makes it less about who I'm competing against and more about our individual performance.

quietann
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:52 PM
allright, I post alot, but...MY....... personal complaints about judging is that for the most part judges use 5, 6, & 7, If you F-up you get a 4 and if it is AMAZING you get an 8. But you never see 0"s 1's 2's 3's or gawd forbid 9's and 10's


heee! Well, I got a few 3s and one 0 in my latest adventure with maresy! But she was very, very naughty and spooky (The tests were in an indoor, the metal roof was creaking and crackling as the day warmed up, and um, yes, I now know my horse can piaffe :lol: just as well as she can teleport sideways, half-rear, buck, etc.... The latter things learned every time we went past a very scary door into the barn's stabling area, which was busy with show people. The 0 was for the circle to the right in T1, where she stopped about 15 feet from that door and said NO WAY was she going anywhere near the monsters lurking there; I had to try a couple of times to get her "sort of" close to the door; the judge gave us a 2, but dinged me -2 for talking to my horse, which was what I needed to do at that moment, and the circle was, um, not circular.)

Our scores were 51.7% and 55.4%, very generously scored as the judge still loved my naughty girl. And of course they are recorded for posterity because this was a recognized show...

twnkltoz
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:40 PM
heee! Well, I got a few 3s and one 0 in my latest adventure with maresy! But she was very, very naughty and spooky (The tests were in an indoor, the metal roof was creaking and crackling as the day warmed up, and um, yes, I now know my horse can piaffe :lol: just as well as she can teleport sideways, half-rear, buck, etc.... The latter things learned every time we went past a very scary door into the barn's stabling area, which was busy with show people. The 0 was for the circle to the right in T1, where she stopped about 15 feet from that door and said NO WAY was she going anywhere near the monsters lurking there; I had to try a couple of times to get her "sort of" close to the door; the judge gave us a 2, but dinged me -2 for talking to my horse, which was what I needed to do at that moment, and the circle was, um, not circular.)

Our scores were 51.7% and 55.4%, very generously scored as the judge still loved my naughty girl. And of course they are recorded for posterity because this was a recognized show...

Heck, if you're getting 2s and 3s, what's the difference if you do what the horse needs and talk to her? lol The fact that you scored in the 50s anyway is impressive!

rabicon
Jul. 30, 2009, 12:22 PM
I've gotten 1's :lol: in my last test, but it was for the wrong lead, major screw up :lol: But I have also gotten a 9:D I was so proud of that. I get many 8's but this is at schooling shows but under R judges. I showed USDF and got a lots of 7's under a O judge. I don't know I just really take my test and study my videos and try to make it better for next time. My trainer can't always go to my shows so she actually sits down and judges the test on video and normally is right on with the judge. :winkgrin: Then she also sees and looks at the test and studies it to help me also. To me its not about the elusive 9 or 10, it'd be nice to have alot of but to make myself and my horse better. I'm slower at moving up also. My horse is very capable of 70's in training but until I have it down pack by the judges I don't move up. Granted this is from intro to training level now. As soon as I'm consitiant at 68-70 I'll move up to 1st. Thats just me though.

Carol Ames
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:18 PM
ave sat with enough judges to know some of them do have a system that allows them to keep track of where each horse will finish, based on the number 60.

One showed it to me. I quickly saw how it could be used and exploited to make sure the "right" horses finished at the top
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