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View Full Version : Ravel and Totilas; so different and so much to like



nhwr
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:24 AM
Ravel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUM5ajI3KJg&feature=related

Totilas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMHt1dUzQg

Such amazing horses, both.

I like Steffen's music better (OK maybe the Transformers DVD has been overplayed at my house :lol:)

It will be interesting to see them compete against each other.
I can't wait.

Going4Gold
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:41 AM
Ravel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUM5ajI3KJg&feature=related

Totilas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMHt1dUzQg

Such amazing horses, both.

I like Steffen's music better (OK maybe the Transformers DVD has been overplayed at my house :lol:)

It will be interesting to see them compete against each other.
I can't wait.

I don't hope you are serious. Ravel is a very good horse, but Totilias is from another planet.:yes:

Ambrey
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:49 AM
I don't hope you are serious. Ravel is a very good horse, but Totilias is from another planet.:yes:

Theo, is that you?

nhwr
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:50 AM
I agree that Totilas is amazing. There is a fluidity to Ravel's movement that I admire. And I have seen Ravel go a couple times in person, that matters. I haven't had the privilege with Totilas yet.

Since I think it is unlikely that I will ever be called on professionally to decide which one is better in competition, I don't feel the need to choose between them.

They are both very nice :yes:

bort84
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:02 PM
Yay! A thread where we can like both! They are VERY different horses. Ravel is farther along in a some ways (he is older and a bit more experienced), and has a relaxation about him that is refreshing to see in top horse. Ravel is so fluid and silky, while Totilas is just electric.

I think it's okay for people to prefer one to the other. They are almost opposite in type, so that's to be expected. You can prefer one and still respect and even like both as top top horses. I love Ravel, but if I could have any dressage horse right now, it'd probably be Totilas. He's a freak, and I LOVE it, haha.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:03 PM
Can I ask a question? I don't ride upper level dressage and did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I mean this question with sincerity and hope to further my education.

One thing I observe is the difference in elevation of the forelimbs between the two horses. Even to the point of one horse's forelimbs going above parallel with the ground. Is this desired? What is the judge looking for with regards to elevation of any of the limbs (say in Piaffe or Passage or even extended trot)? In other words, what is the ultimate goal, beyond rhythm and correct movement?

It is extravagant, certainly...

Eclectic Horseman
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:29 PM
Can I ask a question? I don't ride upper level dressage and did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I mean this question with sincerity and hope to further my education.

One thing I observe is the difference in elevation of the forelimbs between the two horses. Even to the point of one horse's forelimbs going above parallel with the ground. Is this desired? What is the judge looking for with regards to elevation of any of the limbs (say in Piaffe or Passage or even extended trot)? In other words, what is the ultimate goal, beyond rhythm and correct movement?

It is extravagant, certainly...

It isn't about the forelegs. Dressage is really all about changing the balance of the horse off the forehand toward the haunches. When that happens, the haunches lower toward the ground and the forehand elevates. The elevation of the forehand frees the shoulder (takes the weight off) and the horse can lift his forelegs higher.

You can see the kind of elevation that Totilas has in other horses that are doing it completely wrong. In other words, the weight is not shifted to the hindquarters, the back is hollowed and the horse is above the bit.

So really what you have to look at is the hind end. If that is correct, then the forelegs can be as expressive as can be.

Eclectic Horseman
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:32 PM
I don't hope you are serious. Ravel is a very good horse, but Totilias is from another planet.:yes:

A planet where they don't cross their hind legs in the half pass? Or maybe where the same side legs don't make a "V" in the walk? :lol:

asb_own_me
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:33 PM
Since I think it is unlikely that I will ever be called on professionally to decide which one is better in competition, I don't feel the need to choose between them.

:lol: Brilliant! :lol:

eponacelt
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:44 PM
Actually, it is interesting to watch them back to back. I'll admit to having chills when I watch Totilas go. There is an electricity that is very exciting, especially when coupled with the fact that I don't see him being unhappy out there (at least at Hickstead). He is very, very fun to watch. And for what its worth, I like his music much better than Ravel's. I'm a big fan of seamless music, and really dislike the tendency of many Americans to use multiple pieces of music - Safety Dance, Rolling Stones and Coldplay is a little too much for me.

However, when I watch Ravel go, I want to ride him. He looks like fun, whereas Totilas looks intimidating to me. I also will say, I much prefer Ravel's halfpass and medium gaits to Totilas, and he has a nicer walk.

Both horses are great in their own ways, and it'll be interesting to see what happens when they go head to head.

dwblover
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:29 AM
I think Ravel is unbeatable in the half-pass right now, but the pirouettes seem to cause a little problem. Totilas has incredible pirouettes but seems a little lacking in the half pass. They are both wonder horses to my eye, just in different areas and in different ways. Ravel with his unreal flexibility and rhythm. Totilas with his ability to sit and reach with the shoulder. I do think Totilas has more WOW factor, but Ravel can also bring a tear to my eye. And what I love the most about both of these horses is that they look happy while doing their jobs! They both seem like they have temperments even an ammy could love, with a huge amount of heart. They want to please their rider and they try their guts out. Love them both!!!

samd
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:12 AM
I definately think that they are both truely amazing horses!!!!!!! Totilas has his strengths and weaknesses and same with Ravel. After seeing the video of Totilas in the freestyle at Hickstead I would dare say that Ravel definately has straighter tempis and better half passes. But Totilas is unbeatable in Piaffe and Passage. Having that much elevation and suspension is just incredible!!!!!

torontodressage
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:33 AM
Compairing Ravel and Totilas doesn't make any sense.
Ravel is 11 years old and Totilas is only 9.

Totilas is a born talent, while Ravel is a talent that was made.

slc2
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:43 AM
I don't think so.

They are very different. Very different horses have always competed against each other and some horses that are very different have done very well.

Usually, most years, the top contains a couple horses that gain their points in very, very different ways. One is a top scorer because he is so good at A, another is a top scorer because he's so good at B. I've seen horses that were at the top because they had very good extended gaits, for example, and very mediocre piaffe, and horses that basically all they did really well was piaffe and passage and other things were...oh well.

I think that Ravel is very supple, and that's the difference.

torontodressage
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:48 AM
I don't think so.

I think that Ravel is very supple, and that's the difference.

:no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::lol:: lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Wrong glasses on :confused:

slc2
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:11 AM
I'm just tickled to see you are so open to allowing others to have a different point of view than you.

I base that not on how strong his contact looks, it does look strong at times, nor the type of horse he is, which is a more solid type. I base that on how much his suppleness has increased, how supple he looks in specific areas of his body, how he uses his back and hind legs amd es[ecailly how lacking in 'stop action' his movements are, and on how quickly his suppleness has increased, as well as on a trainer who has explained to me at length how much Peters trains for suppleness and what techniques he uses, as well as how that horse has changed in a short period of time. I've been able to agree by looking for the specifics the trainer mentioned, by slowing down videos and looking at earlier and more recent videos and seeing the difference.

I think it is an incredible amount of suppleness for this type of horse to have developed.

Totilas is a whole different kind of problem.

You don't agree? Fine. I am still allowed to have a different opinion than you.

nhwr
Jul. 29, 2009, 11:21 AM
Totilas is a born talent, while Ravel is a talent that was made.Theo,

I am not sure this is true. But even it it were, why would it matter?

Ambrey
Jul. 29, 2009, 11:30 AM
When did Theo move to Toronto?

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:57 PM
i far prefer how Ravel is ridden and how relaxed and supple he looks in comparison to Totilas who to me looks tight and short and unrelaxed and unnatural and unharmonious.

how those two horses are ridden seem to me to be on two separate sides of the spectrum.....

i would love to talk to the judges who give Totalis such gigantic scores - i want to know what they are seeing and why the humongous scores..... if it is for his inherent ability - then we are basically just judging talent and not the effect of the training.....

eta: totalias has kick ass piaffes, i will give him that.... so yes, big scores seem appropriate.... it is the other stuff that i would love to understand the judges thinking.

fiona
Jul. 29, 2009, 02:36 PM
i far prefer how Ravel is ridden and how relaxed and supple he looks in comparison to Totilas who to me looks tight and short and unrelaxed and unnatural and unharmonious.

how those two horses are ridden seem to me to be on two separate sides of the spectrum.....

i would love to talk to the judges who give Totalis such gigantic scores - i want to know what they are seeing and why the humongous scores..... if it is for his inherent ability - then we are basically just judging talent and not the effect of the training.....



I talked to the judges. After both tests.


IMHO they gave Totilas the marks he deserved, he got lots for being loose, relaxed, harmonious.
He got high marks for the technical work not just because of his inherent ability - although that would make stuff like elasticity, balance, energy of the hindquarters, activity, elasticity of the steps, fluency, cadence, regularity, taking weight, precise execution, uphill tendency, balance etc etc etc so much easier for the horse don't you think?


Still, you are determined to only see the faults - which were also marked accordingly - i understand the thinking of the judges on the day far better than yours.

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 02:59 PM
fiona - i dont like the "overall" impression. if i wanted to not like all of it i would say it all sucked. but i dont. i think the piaffes were nice - tons of sit/cadence/etc .

however, that said - it just is not my kind of dressage - no matter how talented the horse -i dont like how he is ridden - i dont get "happy chills" when i watch it.... it leaves me cold.... (and the music didnt help) and all i can think about is how wonderful he would go if he were allowed more freedom and if he were ridden out to the bridle instead of crammed up so......

i am not he only person who thinks this..... altho i guess i am one of the only ones stupid enough to voice a dissenting opinion!

:)

Ajierene
Jul. 29, 2009, 03:07 PM
I watched both Ravel and Totilas and I prefer Ravel for many of the same reasons mbm stated. Ravel just seems more relaxed. Totilas' trot, especially extended trot seems to register that he's tight behind and not really given freedom of movement. Ravel seems more even throughout, more relaxed and supple. Totilas has some better individual movements, but the overall picture, I like Ravel better.

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 03:22 PM
Ravel and Totilas; so different and so much to like.
Compairing Ravel and Totilas doesn't make any sense.
there are some similarities ;) Both Ravel and Totilas were trained by the SAME trainer/rider with the SAME training methods: Edward Gall.

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 03:28 PM
yes, but rumor has it Ravel was wreck and no one would touch him. SP has done a nice job with him..... so..... not sure i would give too much credit to EG re: Ravel.

nhwr
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:07 PM
It hardly makes sense that Steffen Peters would convince one of his best sponsors to spend big bucks of a wreck of a horse, let alone invest his own time in a "project horse". He simply doesn't need to take those kinds of risks.

OlympicDreams
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:23 PM
fiona - i dont like the "overall" impression. if i wanted to not like all of it i would say it all sucked. but i dont. i think the piaffes were nice - tons of sit/cadence/etc .

however, that said - it just is not my kind of dressage - no matter how talented the horse -i dont like how he is ridden - i dont get "happy chills" when i watch it.... it leaves me cold.... (and the music didnt help) and all i can think about is how wonderful he would go if he were allowed more freedom and if he were ridden out to the bridle instead of crammed up so......

i am not he only person who thinks this..... altho i guess i am one of the only ones stupid enough to voice a dissenting opinion!

:)


AMEN! I agree and support you 110%! Very well stated mbm!

fiona
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:35 PM
Which is why it's a shame the Europeans this year aren't "open" so other countries can compete - guess we have to wait till WEG to compare the two horses.

I saw a lot of faults in Ravels test - without wishing to detract from his many accomplishments - downhill tendency, large pirouettes with faulty hindlegs, lack of balance, problems in the mouth, overbent, high croup, swinging haunches - the riders aids were very visible, the legs overactive, the hands unsteady, the curb fully engaged, haunches.

presumably, that was just me?

I like both horses, i wish them both huge success i see a lot of good in both. As did the judges. The marks reflect the very good - excellent performances NOT perfection.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:59 PM
yes, but rumor has it Ravel was wreck and no one would touch him. SP has done a nice job with him..... so..... not sure i would give too much credit to EG re: Ravel.

Really? What rumor? A COTH rumor (crap)? Or an overseas insider rumor?

I think that's BS.

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 05:17 PM
Really? What rumor? A COTH rumor (crap)? Or an overseas insider rumor?

I think that's BS.Ditto. Ravel had a very steep price tag of more than a million $. I would not call that a project horse ;) Ravel was a stallion when he came to S. P. and was gelded - you would think that can help a horse to settle and get more relaxed as well. S. P. did a fantastic job with Ravel, but for that price, the horse must off not been that bad to start from either... don't you think?

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 05:20 PM
yes, but rumor has it Ravel was wreck and no one would touch him.Actually Fiona mentioned the same about the Totilas? That many passed that horse and E. G. took him as a project horse? Is that correct or this is just a rumor as well?

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:28 PM
It hardly makes sense that Steffen Peters would convince one of his best sponsors to spend big bucks of a wreck of a horse, let alone invest his own time in a "project horse". He simply doesn't need to take those kinds of risks.

unless of course he "saw something" that others didnt.....

in any case - like i said teh rumors say..... who knows what the truth is....

but if Ravel was so wonderful - why did Gal let him go? why isnt he competing him?

bort84
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:41 PM
but if Ravel was so wonderful - why did Gal let him go? why isnt he competing him?

Money talks! Trainers do have to make a living; commissions on million dollar horses are quite nice for the retirement years. Haha, and he does have Totilas now... So I think both he and SP made out quite well in the deal = )

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:42 PM
but if Ravel was so wonderful - why did Gal let him go? why isnt he competing him?My guess would be b/c E.D. had Totilas and the price for Ravel was right? At the end, E. D. is there to make $ on horses. Just like he sold his previous dressage stallion L.

CenterlineGirl2
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:13 PM
Edward Gal didn't sell Ravel nor did he sell Lingh. The owners of the horses decided to sell them. Most top riders don't own their show horses, the sponsors do.

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:50 PM
Edward Gal didn't sell Ravel nor did he sell Lingh. The owners of the horses decided to sell them. Most top riders don't own their show horses, the sponsors do.good point.

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 09:31 PM
ok... all i am saying is the rumors say that Ravel wouldn't work for EG, which is why he was sold.

again, who knows what the truth is.....

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 29, 2009, 09:52 PM
SP gave a clinic at Flintridge Riding Club last month, where he told us that the three most important things he works on with Ravel are...

1. Suppling
2. Suppling
and
3. Suppling

slc2
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:24 PM
Yup!

Truthiness
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:28 PM
ravel was working just fine for edward gal on the small tour. i expect the reason he was sold to the US is because there are four or five even better horses in the barn. totilas is only one of them.

slc2
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:46 PM
I think that has more to do with it. But sometimes very nice horses are sold that way.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:56 PM
ok... all i am saying is the rumors say that Ravel wouldn't work for EG, which is why he was sold.

again, who knows what the truth is.....


Again, what rumors? I never heard such a rumor. And I've shared a bathroom with EGs partner! :lol:

Sabine
Jul. 30, 2009, 01:04 AM
I don't hope you are serious. Ravel is a very good horse, but Totilias is from another planet.:yes:

I would tend to agree with this statement...and PLEASE- leave Theo out of this...
I think Steffen will do and think a lot about this and there are a few things that he has a bit better than Totilas - but most of all he has this total can-do attitude as a rider and I think and agree with NHWR- (my friend...) that this will be a spectacular head to head...because both horses have a ton to offer- the one thing that Ravel has over Totilas is SIZE! that can be great if presented correctly...and he needs to be super fresh- which is something we are not as good at - as the Dutch are...but again - two fantastic Dutch horses are leading the world right now- at least- that is just my humble opinion...!

Sabine
Jul. 30, 2009, 01:07 AM
there are some similarities ;) Both Ravel and Totilas were trained by the SAME trainer/rider with the SAME training methods: Edward Gall.

His name is Edward Gal and Ravel was a good 4th level horse when he left- or what you would name that- he knew the exercises of 4th level. He wasn't sold because he was so great. Steffen deserves the respect and acknowledgement for doing what it took to get him to where he is now- and I agree - he is relaxed....and a big horse like that would look rather bad if he wasn't....

Jim Knopf
Jul. 30, 2009, 01:14 AM
I would tend to agree with this statement...and PLEASE- leave Theo out of this...

Hard to leave Theo out when he keeps cropping up all over the place.

Nevertheless, it is awesome to have different horses (and different riders, even though EG and SP are hardly "newcomers") at the top.

Does anyone know when the Germans are thinking of reentering the game? Seems like it may be good timing that IW is banned/pregnant, and that the rest of the team is in disarray. Will be interesting to see who (if anyone at all) they send to WEG.

Sabine
Jul. 30, 2009, 01:21 AM
Hard to leave Theo out when he keeps cropping up all over the place.

Nevertheless, it is awesome to have different horses (and different riders, even though EG and SP are hardly "newcomers") at the top.

Does anyone know when the Germans are thinking of reentering the game? Seems like it may be good timing that IW is banned/pregnant, and that the rest of the team is in disarray. Will be interesting to see who (if anyone at all) they send to WEG.

remember the famous product life- the curve ?? same with the Germs...they are regrouping and that is a good process...haha!
Theo is just fine- and he probably does pop up- but he is a one and only and IMO priceless !

Comparing EG and SP is not fair. EG has had all the best stallions in the Netherlands to ride and he is sitting smack in the middle of a smorgasboard (sp??) that is insane.!!! Steff had to earn his respect and trust and has a great sponsor and owner in Ravels owner...it's like comparing apples and oranges in my opinion- and that is why I have such high respect for Steffen...Ravel is the horse of his life and he is making all of it!

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:48 AM
Comparing EG and SP is not fair. EG has had all the best stallions in the Netherlands to ride and he is sitting smack in the middle of a smorgasboard (sp??)

Sabine, I wonder why EG is the rider given the ride on all these amazing horses?

Why not Anky? Being the world's top dressage rider, one would think that she would be the one in the middle of the "smorgasboard"? :confused:

Anky is one of the most talented technical riders in the world (JMHO ;) ),
and yet compared to these wonder horses, her up and coming horses seem so minor league?

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:34 AM
The whole thing about Anky has always been that she did not have the top top top prospects. She has amassed a 22 million dollar fortune, become one of the most awarded riders in history, and won and won and won, on such horses - fabulous horses, but not horses others aimed that way. That is the whole point of Anky.

egontoast
Jul. 30, 2009, 07:12 AM
The whole thing about Anky has always been that she did not have the top top top prospects. She has amassed a 22 million dollar fortune, become one of the most awarded riders in history, and won and won and won, on such horses - fabulous horses, but not horses others aimed that way. That is the whole point of Anky.


yeah, it's amazing how she can take like a draft cross from some run down place where the manure piles are 6 feet tall and take it to International GP.

I think pretty much all of the top riders "make" horses rather than buy horses others have "aimed that way". They don't need someone else to tell them whether a horse is a good prospect or not.;)

FriesianX
Jul. 30, 2009, 08:07 AM
Two top talent riders with incredible horses - I agree with the title of the original post. So different and so much to like. Ravel and Steffan have just developed such a partnership - it is breathtaking to watch because you see that total commitment to each other in the ride. Totilas and EG look to still be creating their partnership - and part of that is surely the fact that Toti is younger and has the testosterone in his system.

There is no doubt Totilas has one of the most free shoulders ever - the lift and rotation he has in that front end combined with the sit and power behind makes for some pretty eyepopping movements. I think that is why some have labeled him a "freak" or "from another planet".

It will be fascinating to see the two horses and riders compete against each other - the fluidity and greater relaxation and suppleness of Ravel with Steffan versus the higher degree of brilliance and engagement of Totilas and Gal. Both horses and both riders are incredible, and of course, there will be some national loyalties. We in the US are very proud that one of those top teams of horse and rider represent us:lol:

katarine
Jul. 30, 2009, 09:56 AM
I know very little about the nuances of dressage, don't have a dog in any international fight here, nothing....so I'm looking at the two solely as moving art:

Ravel: fluid, supple, eager, obedient, soft, seemingly calm and at ease. He struggles with his size in the piroutte.
Totilas: more soldier-esque, marching without softness and happiness- more robotic, maybe? snap snap snap knee knee knee. His bend and catlike suppleness in the pirouette is pretty...but the overall picture I like, is Ravel's. ravel made me smile, Totilas didn't.
YMMV

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 10:20 AM
The whole thing about Anky has always been that she did not have the top top top prospects. She has amassed a 22 million dollar fortune, become one of the most awarded riders in history, and won and won and won, on such horses - fabulous horses, but not horses others aimed that way. That is the whole point of Anky.

So, the answer to my question is that Anky prefers her horses not to be "top top top prospects". Because that's "her thing" as it were? :confused:

I guess I didn't understand the "whole point of Anky".

In the business of top dressage sport, I rather thought Anky would be focused on winning with the most talented horses (surely) available to her, not trying to preserve some brand of enigma.

circusponydreams
Jul. 30, 2009, 10:31 AM
It was really interesting to watch these two back to back. My jaw just dropped when I saw Totilas piaffe, and that extended trot, good Lord. :eek:

I like Ravel's canter work much better, though; he just seems lighter, more relaxed, more expressive. I too am glad that I don't have to pick between them!

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 10:45 AM
Maybe the owners didn't want Anky riding the horse?

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:03 AM
Maybe the owners didn't want Anky riding the horse?

Really? I would have thought Anky would have owners and sponsors beating a path to her door.

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:06 AM
So, the answer to my question is that Anky prefers her horses not to be "top top top prospects". Because that's "her thing" as it were? :confused:

I guess I didn't understand the "whole point of Anky".

In the business of top dressage sport, I rather thought Anky would be focused on winning with the most talented horses (surely) available to her, not trying to preserve some brand of enigma.

I don't think slc meant Anky doesn't prefer top prospects. I think Anky has just happened upon a couple (like Salinero) who others didn't get along with or didn't see their potential. Once you are competing at that level, rider and horse compatability is SO important. Perhaps that's why Ravel has excelled under SP, not because EG was a bad trainer, but maybe (all theory here) because Ravel and SP just "clicked" a tiny bit more. A tiny bit can make a HUGE difference at the international levels of competition.

Each rider tends to have different types of horses they work best with. EG seems to be bringing Totilas along spectacularly. SP has done wonders with Ravel, and everyone has said that nobody but Anky saw the star potential in Salinero. To be fair, she has had the TOP horses for the last few years. I mean, she cleaned up with Bonfire and with Salinero, she has multiple gold medals, so I'd hardly say she's been struggling for top horses. Still, there are only a few prospects that will ever make it to the Olympic levels and be good enough to medal. Even the very best riders realize how lucky they are when a top prospect they've found actually makes it big.

Recently, it does kind of seem like perhaps Anky will be cooling off? She has done about all there is to do competition-wise, so maybe she's not trying to find the next world beater, because she's already done that. Just speculation. Maybe she needs a break, haha.

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:12 AM
Really? I would have thought Anky would have owners and sponsors beating a path to her door.


Maybe they just like Gal better.

Coreene
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:34 AM
And yet, if Ravel was with Gal and Totilas with Peters, most people here would bitch about Ravel.

Ambrey
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:40 AM
I tend to prefer the less exaggerated movement style, but that's pure aesthetics. I see Edward Gal as being a very lovely rider, and honestly don't see what some others are seeing- maybe that's my inexperience. I also think Steffan is an amazing rider and don't see the issues there either ;)

And I think Totilas is a gorgeous horse, with a piaffe/passage to die for. And I think Ravel is a gorgeous horse who always looks extremely supple, relaxed, and athletic.

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:43 AM
And yet, if Ravel was with Gal and Totilas with Peters, most people here would bitch about Ravel.

I'm sure there is some of that but some people just don't like that type of horse.

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:44 AM
I don't think slc meant Anky doesn't prefer top prospects. I think Anky has just happened upon a couple (like Salinero) who others didn't get along with or didn't see their potential...

Recently, it does kind of seem like perhaps Anky will be cooling off? She has done about all there is to do competition-wise, so maybe she's not trying to find the next world beater, because she's already done that. Just speculation. Maybe she needs a break, haha.

I was just referring to slc's "That's the whole point about Anky" statement. ;)

And I do understand about Salinero (and Bonfire too?) not being the typical "world beater" in dressage.
I think Anky is such an amazing talent as a rider that she makes the horses she rides the "world beaters".

But, after all the fame with Salinero, one wonders why she had Painted Black and Nelson while you had owners and breeders of Dutch horses like Grimaldi/Totilas/Ravel choosing to go with other riders?

It is, after all, business, no? Not a matter of "liking" one rider better than another?

Funny, makes you realize how far breeding has come when one talks of horse talent and Salinero and Painted Black seem to almost pale in comparison to the likes of Totilas and the current upcoming "smorgasboard". :winkgrin:



(edit to add: Obviously, Anky has publically stated that after HK she had lost the desire to compete and hence the long break...
Still does not explain why prior to HK she had Painted Black and Nelson and not access to the likes of (for example) the Grimaldi line?)

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:55 AM
I think there are cycles though. Anky had Bonfire and then Salinero, both top horses for awhile, so perhaps she wasn't looking all that hard for the next big thing? And really, who has anyone had in the last few years to rival Salinero or Stachmo? Maybe Painted Black seemed like he could be the next big thing. Isabell doesn't have someone in line to replace Satchmo, does she? Again, I think it's just that there are few top prospects that become top stars. EG probably spotted Totilas before anybody else did. Timing is everything, haha.

Ambrey
Jul. 30, 2009, 11:59 AM
She also had children. Maybe she didn't have time to be training 3 horses, looking for her next great prospect, and be a mom?

It will be interesting to see whether Isabell's goal-orientedness changes after the baby.

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 12:01 PM
I was just referring to slc's "That's the whole point about Anky" statement. ;)

And I do understand about Salinero (and Bonfire too?) not being the typical "world beater" in dressage.
I think Anky is such an amazing talent as a rider that she makes the horses she rides the "world beaters".

But, after all the fame with Salinero, one wonders why she had Painted Black and Nelson while you had owners and breeders of Dutch horses like Grimaldi/Totilas/Ravel choosing to go with other riders?

It is, after all, business, no? Not a matter of "liking" one rider better than another?

Funny, makes you realize how far breeding has come when one talks of horse talent and Salinero and Painted Black seem to almost pale in comparison to the likes of Totilas and the current upcoming "smorgasboard". :winkgrin:



(edit to add: Obviously, Anky has publically stated that after HK she had lost the desire to compete and hence the long break...
Still does not explain why prior to HK she had Painted Black and Nelson and not access to the likes of (for example) the Grimaldi line?)


Maybe it isn't only about business and why speculate on something you will never have the answer to?:lol::rolleyes:

mbm
Jul. 30, 2009, 12:13 PM
re: AVG and sponsors.... maybe they want to stay away from controversy? or maybe they want to stay away from SJ, or maybe they dont like the "picture" she presents?

or maybe she decided to go int reining instead?

;)

nhwr
Jul. 30, 2009, 12:29 PM
Anky announced her intentions to retire soon awhile ago. I would think that has more of an effect than anything else.

If you watch Totilas after the freestyle ride, he certainly look happy enough. I think that people who say they don't prefer his type of movement are anthropomorphizing that because they don't like how the horse is going, Totilas must not like it either :lol: That is pretty silly.

My point in starting this discussion was to point out that there is a lot to like about both horses and no need to choose between them :yes:

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 12:33 PM
Maybe some just don't like the horse no hidden agenda other then they don't like his movement. I like things about each horse and rider.

Dressage Art
Jul. 30, 2009, 01:42 PM
Ravel was a good 4th level horse when he left- or what you would name that- he knew the exercises of 4th level. He wasn't sold because he was so great. Steffen deserves the respect and acknowledgement for doing what it took to get him to where he is now- and I agree - he is relaxed....and a big horse like that would look rather bad if he wasn't....

So why was Ravel sold?

Naturally since he is from my own state of California, I'm in S.P. corner and rutting for Ravel! I'm supper exited to see them do so great and hope to watch them for a long, long time! and yes, S.F. did a fantastic job with Ravel!

Still, it's curiously interesting that both top current horses Ravel and Totilas came from the same rider/trainer - E. Gal! Don’t you think?

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:12 PM
Interesting version on how Ravel came to be with Steffen Peters:

From Eurodressage (2006):
http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2006/ravel.html



The Dutch warmblood stallion TC Ravel has been sold to Steffen Peters' sponsor Akiko Yamazaki as Peters's ride for the 2008 Olympic Games in Bejing. TC Ravel is by Contango x Democraat.

Ravel is bred by Mr. H de Man and was owned by Tim Coomans. Eugene Reesink of reesinkhorses.com mediated in the sale of the stallion. Grand Prix rider Edward Gal competed TC Ravel at small tour level and was preparing the AES licensed stallion for Grand Prix.

American team rider Steffen Peters tried out Ravel a few times the week before the 2006 World Equestrian Games. "The strong point about this horse is that so far I have found no weak points on him," Peters said. "Ravel has three good basic gaits and an extended canter that is 'out of this world'. He's very sensitive, needs few aids and piaffes and passages with much balance. My number one Floriano is 16 now and Ravel will be his successor."


Dutch owner Tim Coomans has mixed feelings about the sale of this horse. "I always believed in Ravel, even when he was young and hardly anyone believed in his potential," Coomans said. "Of course it gives me much satisfaction now that his talent is blooming and will get all the opportunities in the world under such a good rider. I would have preferred that a Dutch sponsor had bought half of him, but I have to run a business as well."

"Jacques Maree was one of the people who didn't see much in Ravel," Coomans joked about his partner and friend. "One day, Claire, Jacques' 13-year old daughter, came to me for a riding lesson and I put her on Ravel. She made him piaffe and passage without whip or spurs. Fantastic!"

Horse dealer Eugène Reesink was one of the few people who always saw something special in Ravel. Reesink noticed Ravel's talents and potential when he was a young horse and tried to become part owner of him on several occasions. "He never let me buy a half, " Reesink said," but Tim did say that if he ever was to sell Ravel, he would tell me first."

Four years later Tim kept a promise and at 2006 Outdoor Gelderland he told Eugene that he was thinking about selling the horse. "He told me to find a client," Reesink answered. "Steffens Peters was the first client and also the last."

Peters got the opportunity to try out Ravel as often as possible and he did that twelve times. However, it wasn't until Peters rode Ravel under Klaus Balkenhol's watchful eyes at his stable in Rosendahl, Germany, that the final decision for purchase was made.
Coomans kept Ravel at his home three weeks before his departure to the United States. "If something were to happen to him the day before he left, I would have been the only one to blame," Coomans stated. Ravel left for the U.S.A on September 20, 2006, and will go to Peters' stable in Rancho Santa Fe, California.

Sabine
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:19 PM
So why was Ravel sold?

Naturally since he is from my own state of California, I'm in S.P. corner and rutting for Ravel! I'm supper exited to see them do so great and hope to watch them for a long, long time! and yes, S.F. did a fantastic job with Ravel!

Still, it's curiously interesting that both top current horses Ravel and Totilas came from the same rider/trainer - E. Gal! Don’t you think?

not so very interesting...Gal has a great reputation with stallions...that's his gig. If you've got a good one- you take it to him!

Sabine
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:25 PM
Sabine, I wonder why EG is the rider given the ride on all these amazing horses?

Why not Anky? Being the world's top dressage rider, one would think that she would be the one in the middle of the "smorgasboard"? :confused:

Anky is one of the most talented technical riders in the world (JMHO ;) ),
and yet compared to these wonder horses, her up and coming horses seem so minor league?

there is an alignment- like a production line if you want to call it that...and there is comfort for the breeders and they are connected to Gal. Anky has Sjef in front of her...she is a mother and wife and does not need to take the risk of riding a 5yr old super hot stallion...

Dressage Art
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:34 PM
Thanks for posting that, I thought that my memory served me right that Ravel was a bit more than a 4th level horse when Gal had him:
Grand Prix rider Edward Gal competed TC Ravel at small tour (FEI) level and was preparing the AES licensed stallion for Grand Prix.

"One day, Claire, Jacques' 13-year old daughter, came to me for a riding lesson and I put her on Ravel. She made him piaffe and passage without whip or spurs. Fantastic!"

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2006/ravel.html

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:35 PM
Definitions of speculation on the Web:

guess: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence
a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence).:yes::yes::yes:

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:50 PM
there is an alignment- like a production line if you want to call it that...and there is comfort for the breeders and they are connected to Gal. Anky has Sjef in front of her...she is a mother and wife and does not need to take the risk of riding a 5yr old super hot stallion...

Thanks Sabine! Many underlying currents and alliances? :cool:

Still surprised about Anky not taking the chance with a young stallion. She always seemed to be very blase about risk taking and fiercely competitive.

I guess age and children will change that?

Eclectic Horseman
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:11 PM
Thanks Sabine! Many underlying currents and alliances? :cool:

Still surprised about Anky not taking the chance with a young stallion. She always seemed to be very blase about risk taking and fiercely competitive.

I guess age and children will change that?

Not sure where you got that impression. I saw her at a NEDA clinic back at least 7-8 years or so ago and she described herself as a "timid rider." She hacks out in draw reins for crying out loud. Granted, I wouldn't be blase about going for a trail ride on one of her horses either....but she struck me as kind of a wimp. :winkgrin::lol:

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:20 PM
Thanks Sabine! Many underlying currents and alliances? :cool:

Still surprised about Anky not taking the chance with a young stallion. She always seemed to be very blase about risk taking and fiercely competitive.

I guess age and children will change that?

Hasn't Salinero been described as a bit of a nut though? I'd always heard he was quite hot and that Sjef had initially made comments about not wanting Anky on him at first because of his temperment. He certainly looks like he could be a bit explosive = )

Again, just because you may be the winningest rider does not mean you're going to magically get the perfect prospect that will stay sound and make it to the Olympic level. There are a lot of factors that go into winning besides just being good or even the best, and timing and luck are certainly part of it, haha.

Also true that she's a mom and has been at the top for a long time. So perhaps she wasn't looking very hard.

Dressage Art
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:30 PM
Found an old, but intersting post about Ravel: (don't know what's some bickering is about in that old post, seems it's Theo again - but let's not touch that again ;) ) the original is from "Rollkur - Out; Zwangsjacke - In!" thread: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=46846&page=13


to our dressage-goddess (pardon god but you seem to not put a lot of emphasis on correctness when addressing people on this board such as the owner of Ravel ;) ):

Not that I feel I have to justify or explain myself to you but if you had made the effort to actually read what I wrote you would know I'd merely seen a tape of Ravel when he was for sale here. I think I returned it right away as the client I was looking for ended up buying a rising 6yo for less than half of what they were asking for Ravel at the time and while I did not that SP was on the lookout for another horse I realised there was no point moving it on to him as he has known and done business with the Reesinks for a long time and I have no intention to interfer with anyone's preexisting business relationships.
I remember looking at the tape in June 2006 as it was right after I had returned from a trip to the US and Canada. The reason I am sure about the timing is because I was about 5 months pregnant with my youngest daughter at the time of the trip who is an end of October 2006 model and I have vivid memories of frequent visits to several Olympians' barn toilets on that trip admiring the setup because their restrooms are so much nicer and all had clean cotton towels much different than your average European barn-restroom where you have to cope with rough papertowels if you get lucky *LOL*. So much for the myth of morning sickness (should be called consistent pregnancy sickness really). So the tape I watched around June and it showed Edward Gal riding the horse in a training session in an evidently Dutch indoor. I believe the horse was sold to his present owners in the fall of that year so between the tape and the sale there can't have been much room to improve or establish training. And yes his changes were a disaster (that doesn't exclude the horse from having a show record at Inter I as we all know there are shows you can take your horse to if you need it to obtain just 'a ribbon' in any given FEI class to satisfy some sellers or buyers needs).
I honestly have no clue what and where Ravel's placings had been at the time but to be quite honest when I look at a horse, the show record is only of marginal interest to me as I am way more interested in the present state and soundness background than whether or not it had some FEI level ribbon stuck to his browband some time in the past. Afterall it's not a ribbon or a full show record the buyer will ride :)

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I never said anywhere I witnessed Edward Gal riding Ravel in person but merely that I had seen him ride the horse. As it was a sales tape and edited quite a lot I would assume these were the better moments so that leaves plenty of room to speculate just how much work SP has put into Ravel since he got him home (especially considering the horse had some layup post arrival caused by whatever quarantine issue there was). I didn't pay much attention since and I openly admit I didn't believe someone would fix those changes and undo the yank and spank riding displayed in the tape I had been sent. Sales tapes sent out get passed on that's one of the reasons owners of upper level horses have become very reluctant to even bother doing them.
Most dressage barns have had tapes travel the world and in fact come back full circle offering horses that they were riding and training themselves and trying to sell.

As far as sales motivation goes: I think we're safe to assume that Reesinks would have sold him inside Holland, Germany or any other European country if any of them brilliant, current, oh so modern dressage gods had seen in the horse what Mr. Reesink saw in it.
If for instance the wise, friendly, polite and extremely horse-savvy Dutch National Trainer had believed this particular horse had it in him to become the next Salinero or whatever else superstar horse there is at present why didn't he buy it when the qualities were so evident *LOL*.
Nono there's no way around it that Mr. Reesink and Steffen Peters did spot his talent when pretty much all the European big fish did not (or didn't find the sponsor to cough up the money in time) and it was Steffen Peters riding alone that converted the horse into the world class GP horse he is today so he and Mr. Reesink and of course the horses' breeder are the ones my Kudos go to (not that they would know or care but this is a public bulletin board so whoever wants to can write their opinion not just the keyboard-kings of the world ;)
That'll be the last thing I have to say about this matter and no I am not going to chime in on the Ravel breeding thread as I have plenty of other things on my mind and can very well do without being attacked and accused of lying by someone nasty who's life seems to be a screen.

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:32 PM
re: AVG and sponsors.... maybe they want to stay away from controversy? or maybe they want to stay away from SJ, or maybe they dont like the "picture" she presents?



I was just looking at her Wikipedia page. She's had four different sponsors, Cameleon, Gestion, Keltec and IPS.

What I was looking for was information about her background, because of that 22 million dollar fortune she has amassed from dressage riding.:eek: Either she came from money, or I've been going about dressage riding the wrong way!

mbm
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:40 PM
I was just looking at her Wikipedia page. She's had four different sponsors, Cameleon, Gestion, Keltec and IPS.

What I was looking for was information about her background, because of that 22 million dollar fortune she has amassed from dressage riding.:eek: Either she came from money, or I've been going about dressage riding the wrong way!

not from dressage riding per se....but from marketing... each and every time someone has her name etc on a product it cost BIG bucks. she has has a line of clothing , does ton of clinics etc... and she gets paid to show.

probably a lot more too..... :)

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 03:53 PM
not from dressage riding per se....but from marketing... each and every time someone has her name etc on a product it cost BIG bucks. she has has a line of clothing , does ton of clinics etc... and she gets paid to show.

probably a lot more too..... :)


Yeah, I've heard that her family has a marketing background and helped her create a little Anky dressage empire. We all know that horse riding alone is rarely enough to amass a fortune (or even enough to build a decent retirement plan!) I see no issue with riders "selling out" as long as it's not affecting their technique = ) (not that anyone else said it was a problem either)

Ambrey
Jul. 30, 2009, 04:41 PM
What I was looking for was information about her background, because of that 22 million dollar fortune she has amassed from dressage riding.:eek: Either she came from money, or I've been going about dressage riding the wrong way!

Yep, you've been doing it wrong! When you can win olympic gold, manufacturers will pay you to put your name on things too ;) Simple isn't it?

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 04:48 PM
She didn't come from money the way I understand it, but Holland really wanted to have a hero and backed her.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:02 PM
So much for that "Ravel is crap" rumor.

egontoast
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:08 PM
She didn't come from money the way I understand it, but Holland really wanted to have a hero and backed her

What are your sources?

Dressage Art
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:20 PM
Yeah, I've heard that her family has a marketing background and helped her create a little Anky dressage empire.But going to the Olympics at a tender age of 21 and then keep coming back didn't hurt her either! And that was before RK and Shief as her trainer, back when her father was her trainer. Before Anky started to train in RK - she had a Cinderella story with the mutt horse that she trainerd as a little girl of 12 years old all the way to Olympics ... how many did that?


Anky started with Prisco when she was 12 years old. Her father did not let her ride on her own because Prisco could go very fast. It took a long time before Anky could manage to do the 'beginners-test' in Holland at the regional competitions. Very often Prisco started running, ran out of the ring and ran over the big show field.

Anky: ‘I leaned a lot from Prisco. I learned to have patience. Many, many times when Prisco was naughty, my father said ‘go off the horse and walk three rounds around the barn and then you go on with your riding. Well, I walked a lot! But because of Prisco I can handle such hot horses like Bonfire and Salinero.’


Sire: UnknownColour: Dark brown Height: 1.62m Sex: Gelding Level:Grand Prix

Most important results:
Dutch Champion in 1990
Olympic Games Seoul 1988: 26e ind. and 5e in nations cup
Worldcup finals: 1989: 7e; 1990: 9e
World Championships: 1990: 23e
European Championships: 1989: 22e ind. en 5e in nations cuphttp://www.anky.nl/media/paarden/prisco_4.jpg

You know what they say: from nothing, comes nothing ;) Anky was very talented from the get go. It’s a shame that she has to go to RK, shame...

egontoast
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:26 PM
You know what they say: from nothing, comes nothing

How cryptic and inane.

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:38 PM
'what are your sources'

her autobiography, among other things.

a book which has been out in english for a rather long time, think i bought it more than ten years ago.

I can't recall exactly, but if I remember right, her family was comfortable but not filthy rich, and her brother rode jumpers.

Prisco was described as a Thoroughbred.

By 'support', I don't mean financial support, though she has had quite a few dutch sponsors, i mean they like her, they have her on tv a lot, and actually, i think based on that and all the articles i've read and interviews i've seen, the country of holland seems to have supported her very enthusiastically and there she is honored as a sports hero. i think the country and the country's media and business have both been very happy to have such a sports hero come from their country.

Dressage Art
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:39 PM
How cryptic and inane. you think it's meaningless? A. Steiner’s who is an "O" (Olympic) judge kept repeating this phrase when he was teaching us during "L" program... I learned a LOT from him. So I don't think that it's "inane".

Your comments are perfect examples of the a rail bird chatter. May be it's time for you to stop underlying every other poster and start bringing something useful to the table for a change.

claire
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:53 PM
Not sure where you got that impression. I saw her at a NEDA clinic back at least 7-8 years or so ago and she described herself as a "timid rider." She hacks out in draw reins for crying out loud. Granted, I wouldn't be blase about going for a trail ride on one of her horses either....but she struck me as kind of a wimp. :winkgrin::lol:

My impression of Anky as fearless and fiercely competitive?
I don't know, maybe from the way she competes. She takes huge chances and really goes for it, balls to the walls! :D

I remember watching the Athens Olympics and they said she had just been bucked off by Salinero in the warm up arena and she was like "Ha, Ha, what spirit" and jumps back on. AND she was three months pregnant with her first child at the time.

My trainer said that Bonfire impressed her as quite the firecracker when she had watched Anky in a competition long ago. And that Anky was very blase about his antics that had my trainer going :eek:.

Someone who regularly hacks out her competition fit, top dressage horses (even in draw reins :winkgrin: ) does not strike me as a wimpy rider.

Heh, but that is my personal impression YMMV!

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:04 PM
May be it's time for you to stop underlying every other poster and start brining something useful to the table for a change.

If you have been paying any attention the last 10 years, she ain't got nothin' else in her.

She hacks out in draw reins for ..... something of a wimp.

You ride those horses out then. Take out a life insurance policy first, though.

nhwr
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:36 PM
from nothing, comes nothingIt is a line from a song in "The Sound of Music"

I think the actual lyric was "Nothing comes from nothing; nothing ever could"

von Trapp family dressage :yes:

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:39 PM
stunning.

I think when Steiner used the phrase he meant if you don't work at it you won't get anywhere.

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 30, 2009, 07:04 PM
Yep, you've been doing it wrong! When you can win olympic gold, manufacturers will pay you to put your name on things too ;) Simple isn't it?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

alicen
Jul. 31, 2009, 11:19 AM
See interview: http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=2527

And Peters needed pointers from Gal to ride Ravel: http://www.dressagedirect.com/general_news_archive_2006?wid=VZmSKYLXUFcviOUusYru ug&func=view&overrideTemplateId=aQp-oaIzzjXREt4lYFpNVA

Dressage Art
Jul. 31, 2009, 01:33 PM
Very interesting, thanks for posting! So he got 3's for his mistakes and he got several 10s for his P-work. Good, I'm glad to see that the mistakes were penalized correctly. Yes, it will be interesting what score he will get with out mistakes... he can ride with out mistakes home already, but all of us who show know that it's not easy to ride with out mistakes in the strange place + b/c he is a stallion he takes longer to settle in the new stall as well.

slc2
Jul. 31, 2009, 07:04 PM
Maybe it is not true that the judges never use the full range of scores, LOL.

egontoast
Jul. 31, 2009, 08:27 PM
Alex Steiner’s who is an "O" (Olympic) judge kept repeating this phrase when he was teaching us during "L" program... I learned a LOT from him. So I don't think that it's "inane".



It wasn't used in the Alex(sic) Steiner sense here.:)

Dressage Art
Jul. 31, 2009, 09:01 PM
It wasn't used in the Alex(sic) Steiner sense here.:)
Your snarky posts already got deleted by mods... why you are still continuing the same thing? Why can't you just put me on "Ignore" and get busy with somebody else? There are plenty others who misspell and (GASP....) English is not their 4th language.

Or is it LOVE and you can't control yourself? :)

egontoast
Aug. 1, 2009, 09:57 AM
My post was not snarky but your reply certainly was. Is there a double standard here or does the squeaky wheel get the grease?


I highly recommend the ignore button to everyone who constantly presses the alert button whenever someone dares to challenge them.

That might give the mods a bit of a rest.

Dressage Art
Aug. 1, 2009, 12:32 PM
Congratulations, you derailed yet another interesting topic with your spelling and grammar pocking (sic) – and you call that "dares to challenge"?

Pony Fixer
Aug. 1, 2009, 03:05 PM
I'm just gonna say, I prefer egon's knowledge, sharp edged as it might be at times, to other's pseudo knowledge cut and pasted for my "education".

And yes, while the mods have a difficult task, there is that whole "squeaky wheel" thing happening for sure...

Carry on...