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View Full Version : The Latest Video of the Totilas/Gal Freestyle at Hickstead



Mike Matson
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:06 AM
Courtesy of Ecogold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMHt1dUzQg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fecogold%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded

I just wish they would find some better music for this horse. :confused: He deserves better.

Sonesta
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:44 AM
You could volunteer to put one together for them!

torontodressage
Jul. 28, 2009, 12:24 PM
Courtesy of Ecogold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMHt1dUzQg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fecogold%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded

I just wish they would find some better music for this horse. :confused: He deserves better.

Three times a 9 and two times a 10 for the music :lol::lol::lol:

Please not the music from the 50's which Matson prefers :mad:

Going4Gold
Jul. 28, 2009, 12:42 PM
You could volunteer to put one together for them!

OMG Please :no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

mbm
Jul. 28, 2009, 12:42 PM
wow....

i hear that music and those bells

Bonnnnggg!
Bonnnnggg!

and i hear the death knell of dressage -

honestly - i just don't get what everyone sees in these rides.... yeah, the horse is talented but how he is ridden???? not my cup o tea and not what i consider top dressage should be.

lookout park here comes extreme dressage full out.

:(

Going4Gold
Jul. 28, 2009, 12:45 PM
There is a video on topdressage with the music restored and the comments deleted. Wooooowser.

@ mbm : thats why you will always stay at training level

mbm
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:08 PM
@ mbm : thats why you will always stay at training level

:lol::lol::lol: i always love these kinds of comments. i am bad and a horrible rider because i dont happen to buy into the popular type of dressage......

ummmm, yeah..... :lol::lol:

Madam Cleo
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Going4Gold View Post

@ mbm : thats why you will always stay at training levelLes choses sont-elles un peau calmes et lentes chez vous, mon petit lapin ?

chancellor2
Jul. 28, 2009, 01:43 PM
I agree with Mike. That music sucked.

yaya
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:05 PM
The music is waaay heavy. He did the same thing with Lingh.

A light-moving horse deserves light music, not the gongs and chants and stuff.

fiona
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:12 PM
I agree with Mike. That music sucked.


I Loved the music, especially the bells. It was windy at Hickstead so maybe it didn't come over the speakers on to video that well but it was one of the most amazing tests/rides i have ever seen.
Not technically perfect in every step but for a 9yr new to the level horse - brilliant. And the music was atmospheric, memorable and enhanced the performance.

Of course, that is only my opinion. And that of the judges, the other riders, the trainers and the many people that were actually there and gave the horse a standing ovation.

mbm
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:16 PM
fiona - just think how boring it would be if everyone thought and felt exactly the same! we might as well be ants or bees (or borgs!) :)

i respect the horses inherent ability - i personally think it would be put to better use and be much more beautiful, under a different rider......

as for him being 9 - hopefully he will stand up the rigors of top dressage and not disappear like some other super horses we could mention.

nhwr
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:27 PM
Hey guys, be nice!
It worked for Optimus Prime and Totilas may have the AllSpark.
Yes, I spend too much time around adolescent boys :lol: so that may influence me a bit.

It is interesting the different preferences for music in the US and Europe.

Ambrey
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:36 PM
Hey guys, be nice!
It worked for Optimus Prime and Totilas may have the AllSpark.
Yes, I spend too much time around adolescent boys :lol: so that may influence me a bit.

It is interesting the different preferences for music in the US and Europe.

On the other hand, it's the only way I'll ever be able to get my 9 1/2 year old son to watch a freestyle with me :D

fiona
Jul. 28, 2009, 02:36 PM
You can speculate all you like about how any horse would be under a different rider but you can't possibly know how that would have worked and the chances of seeing it with this horse are about nil.

What you ought to consider is just how many top level riders - including US team members - turned this horse down because they didn't recognise it's ability or they wouldn't take the risk.... or whatever. It takes vision and talent to spot and develop a GP horse and some people just don't have it.

So, of course it's ok to disagree and stand by your own opinion - just as long as you know you're wrong!!!!;)

nhwr
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:13 PM
No doubt about it, they are a brilliant pair :yes:

I think too there is something to be said for seeing them go in person. There can be sort of collective consciousness thing going on for a good ride at a show. It would have been fab to have been there. You just can't get that same buzz from a video.

torontodressage
Jul. 28, 2009, 03:20 PM
Youtube is known for their bad quality of both picture and sound

I just watched this version :


http://www.viddler.com/explore/hickstead2009/videos/17/

chancellor2
Jul. 28, 2009, 04:04 PM
I Loved the music, especially the bells. It was windy at Hickstead so maybe it didn't come over the speakers on to video that well but it was one of the most amazing tests/rides i have ever seen.
Not technically perfect in every step but for a 9yr new to the level horse - brilliant. And the music was atmospheric, memorable and enhanced the performance.

Of course, that is only my opinion. And that of the judges, the other riders, the trainers and the many people that were actually there and gave the horse a standing ovation.


The judges have been known to give Anky 7s for her non-halts too. Doesn't mean they are good. You are entitled to your opinion but no more entitled to yours as I am to mine.
I hated the music and thought something lighter would definitely enhance the performance even more.

I just watched the version torontodressage posted. I liked the music a little more but still thought it was too heavy for such a light horse.

fiona
Jul. 28, 2009, 04:42 PM
The movement reads
1. A Enter in collected canter
X halt - immobility- salute
Proceed in collected trot
XC collected trot.

The directive ideas reads
Quality of the paces, halt, and transitions.
Straightness.
Contact and poll.

Presumably the 3 missing marks were not awarded to reflect the inadequate elements of the required exercise?

Out of interest, which music did you like, or do you like from current competitors? the differences between european/us/uk taste is noticeable, i liked Ravels from the WC though.

I agree the viddler.com video is much better quality and reflects the atmosphere - look at the crowd reaction - it's england, we don't cheer like that for our own competitors, and look at the points. During the show he got low marks for the walk and the mistakes and i'm sure some comments on the frame, forelegs in the extension etc etc but where it was good he was unbelievable good!

K Bayo
Jul. 28, 2009, 04:55 PM
You have 2 marks for the halts in the GPFS which average out at the end. So if he gets a 5 for the first and a 9 for the last thats a 7.

Mike Matson
Jul. 28, 2009, 05:01 PM
It is interesting the different preferences for music in the US and Europe.

Indeed. However as evidenced by sales and popularity, the American brands of music continue to set the standards and trends around the world. Some of this is showing up in the dressage musical freestyles, e.g., Brentina's "MoTown" freestyle and Ravel's "Coldplay" freestyle. However, it still comes down to what "fits" the horse, no matter which country the music originates from.

At a recent clinic, a SRS rider was watching my horse perform to music I had selected for him. "That fits him very well!", he said. However, I wasn't invited to Vienna to change their music. :)

Mike Matson
Jul. 28, 2009, 05:17 PM
What I don't understand is why sponsors and riders are paying big bucks for new musical compositions. It really isn't necessary. There is great published music available and suitable for horses and a freestyle without having to lay out that kind of money. As an example, look at Anky's "Song Sung Blue" freestyle vs. her composition freestyles. IMO the former is still her best vs. the latter and will continue to be her "signature" freestyle.

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 28, 2009, 06:15 PM
wow....

i hear that music and those bells

Bonnnnggg!
Bonnnnggg!

and i hear the death knell of dressage -

honestly - i just don't get what everyone sees in these rides.... yeah, the horse is talented but how he is ridden???? not my cup o tea and not what i consider top dressage should be.

lookout park here comes extreme dressage full out.

:(

I agree with you. :) I like this horse but...

I've watched several videos of Totilas and at the end of every test, when Edward is walking him out of the ring, the horse starts to jig/jog a bit. Notice how it looks like a normal trot without that elaborate flash and flick with his front feet? I've ridden in big arenas before and a horse jigging out of the ring when the crowd is applauding is when the horse is the MOST "elastic" :D and this horse just trotted like a normal horse. Seems like that "spider" crawl trot has more to do with training than just pure ability (although that trot is not possible without a free shoulder.) I think he has been taught when collected to move his front end like that, which is no different than trick training IMO. I HATE his trot extensions.

He DOES have a fabulous piaffe, however. Other than getting too tight in the neck at times and swinging his a$$ in the one-tempis, I really can't find much fault with him in general, which is why everyone attacks you (and probably me now :lol:) on these boards when expressing a dissenting opinion. He is a nice horse FOR SURE, but I hope he isn't the be all and end all of dressage.

mbm
Jul. 28, 2009, 06:39 PM
my big question is: how did he get such a gigantic score with so many errors and bobbles?

and seriously - what are the judges going to do when he gets stronger? give him a 110% ?

eta: i wish we could see the movement by movement scores.... this would be really educational and might just answer a lot of questions :)

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:01 PM
my big question is: how did he get such a gigantic score with so many errors and bobbles?

and seriously - what are the judges going to do when he gets stronger? give him a 110% ?

eta: i wish we could see the movement by movement scores.... this would be really educational and might just answer a lot of questions :)

:yes::yes::yes::yes:

torontodressage
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:16 PM
my big question is: how did he get such a gigantic score with so many errors and bobbles?

and seriously - what are the judges going to do when he gets stronger? give him a 110% ?

eta: i wish we could see the movement by movement scores.... this would be really educational and might just answer a lot of questions :)

Why do you need the scoresheets.
You have already made up your mind.

mbm
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:20 PM
Why do you need the scoresheets.
You have already made up your mind.

i have made up my mind i dont like how the horse is ridden ( i am not a fan of Gal as a rider)... and i do think the score was a bit inflated.... however, it would be interesting and yes, educational to see how the various judges scored him.

ETA: i have no clue how each movement was scored...... there were a few good moments but a few no so good moments too.

i just don't see how this was SOOOOO much better than every other ride that has ever happened?

so i would like to see what the judges think.

it's called transparency ;)

torontodressage
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:22 PM
The music is waaay heavy. He did the same thing with Lingh.

A light-moving horse deserves light music, not the gongs and chants and stuff.

He probably knows what the judges like :lol::lol:

paintjumper
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:27 PM
I remember one time seeing "Big Mama Girl" Brentina and Debbie riding to the song "She's a Brick House" :) , by the Commodores, that song fit that mare to a tee. I love the US music, and think it is very fitting for US horses and riders especially.

torontodressage
Jul. 28, 2009, 07:28 PM
i have made up my mind i dont like how the horse is ridden ( i am not a fan of Gal as a rider)... and i do think the score was a bit inflated.... however, it would be interesting and yes, educational to see how the various judges scored him.

ETA: i have no clue how each movement was scored...... there were a few good moments but a few no so good moments too.

i just don't see how this was SOOOOO much better than every other ride that has ever happened?

so i would like to see what the judges think.

it's called transparency ;)

I heard the judges say that if they were allowed to give marks above 10 they would have given many 15+ marks.

fiona
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:08 PM
the American brands of music continue to set the standards and trends around the world. Some of this is showing up in the dressage musical freestyles, e.g., Brentina's "MoTown" freestyle and Ravel's "Coldplay" freestyle

Coldplay are English.

Dame M. Dimblekins
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:20 PM
Interesting discussion. I liked Totilas' musical score. I believe it comes from a film soundtrack, I don't recall the name of the film however. Most Americans I know refer to the kind of music we seem to favor for freestyles as "elevator music". I am not sure I truly understand that connotation.

Mike Matson
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:37 PM
Coldplay are English.

To be quite proper about it, they are British. ;)

egontoast
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:37 PM
I have to say, no offence intended , but this Dame M Dimblekins is a fraud. I am a close personal friend of Dame Mabel Dimblekins ( my trainer) and I know for a fact she does not even own a computer. She's an old school dyed in the wool luddite and would be horrified that someone was using her name on a tawdry internet discussion board.

She has a a Black and White TV and drives a vintage Morris Oxford. She has a rotary dial phone and to her a blackberry is something you bake in a pie or serve with curds.

Unless this is her disgraced cousin Muffy Dimblekins in which case the "Dame" part is still a fraud.

meupatdoes
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:37 PM
Seems like that "spider" crawl trot has more to do with training than just pure ability (although that trot is not possible without a free shoulder.) I think he has been taught when collected to move his front end like that, which is no different than trick training IMO. I HATE his trot extensions.

He DOES have a fabulous piaffe, however. Other than getting too tight in the neck at times and swinging his a$$ in the one-tempis, I really can't find much fault with him in general.....

He is a nice horse FOR SURE, but I hope he isn't the be all and end all of dressage.

Agreed on all counts above.

The trot extensions remind me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y).

However I do think he is a beautiful horse.

mbm
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:49 PM
The trot extensions remind me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y).


oh my god, that is a f*cking sin. how can people do that to a horse?

Dame M. Dimblekins
Jul. 28, 2009, 08:56 PM
If you like a puzzle, you will like life.:yes:

I was gifted with a macintosh from sittingbythereiner about a month ago, dearest.

We must catch up. But later, it is now past my toes up time.

Ambrey
Jul. 28, 2009, 09:00 PM
The trot extensions remind me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y).


*shudder*

Except that isn't a trot.

And those horses are 2.

And he'd have to be about 2hh shorter to make the rider/horse weight ratio the same.

meupatdoes
Jul. 28, 2009, 09:03 PM
*shudder*

Except that isn't a trot.

And those horses are 2.

And he'd have to be about 2hh shorter to make the rider/horse weight ratio the same.

Yes.
Clearly I was alluding to the rider/horse height ratio and to the age of the horses rather than to Greek's "spidy" trot comment about artificial front leg elevation.

You may as well be like, "EXCEPT THAT ONE HORSE IS SPOTTED."

Ambrey
Jul. 28, 2009, 09:07 PM
Yes.
Clearly I was alluding to the rider/horse height ratio and to the age of the horses rather than to Greek's "spidy" trot comment about artificial front leg elevation.

You may as well be like, "EXCEPT THAT ONE HORSE IS SPOTTED."

Hmmm, someone pee on your cornflakes this morning?

You could have picked a lot of videos of gaited horses that made the comparison a bit less dramatic.

meupatdoes
Jul. 28, 2009, 09:15 PM
Hmmm, someone pee on your cornflakes this morning?

You could have picked a lot of videos of gaited horses that made the comparison a bit less dramatic.

Yeah.
Not all gaited horses are ridden like that.
Not all of them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPXqEAuJxE) lift their front legs quite as high as Totilas (http://www.dressage-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WDM-GP-Edward-Gal-Moorlands-Totilas_JB_38271.jpg), either.


*By the way, before we have a mass reading comprehenion/logic fail here, no, the above two statements do NOT equal "I think Edward Gal rides Totilas like a TN Walker." OK everyone? Read it again if you don't believe me. I was simply making a brief visual allusion which already people are twisting into BUT TOTILAS ISN'T TWO.

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 28, 2009, 10:15 PM
Totilas reminds me of the former governor of Alaska;);). Divisive for what he represents. Somehow one can't offer a dissenting opinion on his coronation without somehow attacking the other's values.

I was told once that if I didn't like him, maybe dressage wasn't for me. I just don't like that he gets those scores with those mistakes and weaknesses. I too feel the trot is artificial, not that it was achieved by artificial means, but that picture meup linked to says a lot. I watched his freestyle again today, and also the one from June 6, which scored lower but had fewer mistakes. IMHO he doesn't deserve those scores.

Now please kill me.:dead:

dressurpferd01
Jul. 28, 2009, 10:59 PM
I'll just offer my opinion here, for what it's worth. I think this horse looks bizarre. His movement looks highly mechanical. It doesn't look natural to me. I'll grant that he's probably a freak of nature, but if this is the future of international dressage, I want no part. This freakish, mechanical movement is not what the sport is meant to be.

The biggest plus I see is Totila's piaffe. It's one of the most correct modern piaffes I've seen. He has real sit, and very little forward movement.

I just don't like how he moves overall. I can't say it any differently than it looks manufactured and fake.

baymare
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:02 PM
Well I won't join in on the debate about the horse-- I think he is an amazing athlete and I would not feel remotely qualified to say otherwise.

As a musician, though, I gotta say I think the music is awful-- overblown, incoherent, distracting. I prefer watching with the sound off! You never get that "dancing" feel that my favorite freestyles manage to convey, which I always thought was integral to freestyle.

2ndyrgal
Jul. 28, 2009, 11:53 PM
Until he started to trot. I thought when I saw the piaffe and passage he'd have a BIG trot.
The more you go up, the less you go forward. Very free through the shoulder, but not my taste. I am not an ULR, I don't own a BDH (big deal horse). I do know what correct is, I know what classically trained looks like and, more importantly, I know what I like. I didn't like that. I like Ravel, I loved Brentina, Salerno (sp) a very gifted horse with a very gifted rider. This pair, ok flashy, expressive, but not somehow, natural. Sort of like seeing a very pretty girl with a set of really nice hooters, but you can tell they're fakes. Very good fakes, but fakes none the less. Entertaining, but I think there is a reason that others took a pass on this horse. He's talented, but there's a difference between jazz and ballet.

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:18 AM
what is interesting is to watch his I1 rides..... now that was a trot that looked natural and i am not sure how it went from that to what it is today....

and.... i sure am glad i am not the only village idiot willing to speak up :lol::lol:

Mike Matson
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:02 AM
As a musician, though, I gotta say I think the music is awful-- overblown, incoherent, distracting. I prefer watching with the sound off! You never get that "dancing" feel that my favorite freestyles manage to convey, which I always thought was integral to freestyle.

:yes:

bort84
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:22 AM
Oookay, comparing him to those hideous 2 year old walkers might be just a bit extreme? Perhaps? That video was posted on an extremely incendiary thread about soring. He doesn't look anything like a "gaited" horse unless you're talking about a 5-gaited saddlebred, which is not the same thing as a gaited horse. And even then he'd only resemble a 5-gaited saddlebred at the trot... Perhaps "park" was the description you're looking for. He wouldn't win a saddlebred park class, but he'd do damn well in most arabian park classes with his action...

Honestly, horses can pop out of the womb trotting like that, and then training can enhance it. It doesn't require trick training, weighted boots, string shackles. I think he's only 9 and will only get better with time if EG can keep his mind right. I have never worked with EG or watched him school horses in person, so I like to stay off that pro-bashing train. I think he looks quite solid on Totilas, so perhaps his particular training style is liked by Totilas, time will tell. I'm very excited to watch this horse progress.

egontoast
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:25 AM
I was gifted with a macintosh from sittingbythereiner about a month ago, dearest.



That clinches it!:eek:
Dame Mabel would sooner die than use any form of "gift" as a verb!
Go back to your knitting, Muffy!;)

scottishgirl
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:56 AM
Coldplay are English.


To be quite proper about it, they are British. ;)

This is one of those occasions where the rules of selective English-ness isn't offending me - Coldplay are dire, and I am very happy for them to be perceived solely as an English malady, rather than the fault of the entire British public!

torontodressage
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:07 AM
It is a old American habbit from Mike Matson to think that everything which is good is coming from the USA.:lol::lol::lol::D:D

Mike Matson
Jul. 29, 2009, 08:06 AM
Not everything. I've traveled to most parts of the world, so have an appreciation for what other countries have to offer. However, in music, America leads the way. :)

siegi b.
Jul. 29, 2009, 09:29 AM
Mike - you may want to revise your statement to read.... "however, in contemporary music America leads the way"

Mike Matson
Jul. 29, 2009, 09:55 AM
American jazz and R&B go beyond "contemporary". :)

Going4Gold
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:30 AM
Mike - you may want to revise your statement to read.... "however, in contemporary music America leads the way"

Maybe you have to crawl out of your caves, and accept that the music of the USA and their dressage riders is from a lost planet.

The Irish and Brittish music is the absolute top these days, mixed by Dutch DJ's.

Mike Matson
Jul. 29, 2009, 10:52 AM
Only if mixed by that famous Dutch DJ "Theo". ;)

However, Ravel's music "mixer" has been center stage this year. :)

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 29, 2009, 11:46 AM
what is interesting is to watch his I1 rides..... now that was a trot that looked natural and i am not sure how it went from that to what it is today....

and.... i sure am glad i am not the only village idiot willing to speak up :lol::lol:

Watch them where? That would be interesting to see.

fiona
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:44 PM
Coldplay are dire

No.
Dire is Britney Spears Womaniser.

I will give you Motown, Blues etc but raise you The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Eric Clapton and the many other British artists that played your blues and motown numbers out loud in public long before you Americans decided it was cool.

anyhow, back to Totilas
I am not a musician although i play the piano, violin and guitar - i still LOVE the music - it may explain my total lack of talent on those instruments to those of you that are accomplished! It may also explain to me why some of you cannot see anything good in Totilas.

Bellfleur
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:50 PM
I don't really much care what music this stallion dances to. I realize that my taste in music is probably not everyone else's (considering I loved the Pop Goes the Weasel music from one freestyle).

I think him amazing. He is gorgeous and well built and looks like he loves his work with his rider. I love his disposition. He handles the big crowds and everything go on with amazing calm and still focuses on his work. Plus how much charisma!!! All this in a fairly young stallion!

Obviously the crowd and the judges loved him too.

When I have a shot at riding him better - (yeah right! or when I am perfect in my next lifetime) than his current rider I will feel it within my purview to comment.

Until then I just am looking for frozen!! Has he produced anything?

Thanks for the post with the viddler link!! It was excellent.

ridgeback
Jul. 29, 2009, 12:52 PM
No.
Dire is Britney Spears Womaniser.

I will give you Motown, Blues etc but raise you The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Eric Clapton and the many other British artists that played your blues and motown numbers out loud in public long before you Americans decided it was cool.

anyhow, back to Totilas
I am not a musician although i play the piano, violin and guitar - i still LOVE the music - it may explain my total lack of talent on those instruments to those of you that are accomplished! It may also explain to me why some of you cannot see anything good in Totilas.

Fiona don't forget Genesis:):D The U.S. and Great Britan are the power houses in music for sure. I like Totilas except for his extended trot.

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:02 PM
Watch them where? That would be interesting to see.

here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My_gRwgErt4

altho before i am slaughtered, it is an intermediarre freestyle . not I1

FancyFree
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:11 PM
Until he started to trot. I thought when I saw the piaffe and passage he'd have a BIG trot.
The more you go up, the less you go forward. Very free through the shoulder, but not my taste. I am not an ULR, I don't own a BDH (big deal horse). I do know what correct is, I know what classically trained looks like and, more importantly, I know what I like. I didn't like that. I like Ravel, I loved Brentina, Salerno (sp) a very gifted horse with a very gifted rider. This pair, ok flashy, expressive, but not somehow, natural. Sort of like seeing a very pretty girl with a set of really nice hooters, but you can tell they're fakes. Very good fakes, but fakes none the less. Entertaining, but I think there is a reason that others took a pass on this horse. He's talented, but there's a difference between jazz and ballet.

Excellent post, especially the bolded part, lol. I'm not an ULR either, but he looks so mechanical and forced in his movements to me.

grayarabpony
Jul. 29, 2009, 01:54 PM
Well, I don't much like him either. Why don't so many of these top horses track up? Collected trot is not supposed to be a foot out of the tracks, mere inches or actually tracking up is correct.

Most of the time when I'm looking at the tests of these top horses I can't even tell what the hell the horse is doing.

And before any wiseasses come roaring on here to call me stupid or ignorant, just save it.

People are allowed to have differing opinions.

(yes, the heat is getting to me)

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:07 PM
here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My_gRwgErt4Good one!
I like his I-1 or I-2 trot better than his GP spider-trot. Now, that it's clear that his trot is manufactured, that isn’t not just the way that he trots when he is turned out - I wonder even more why he was schooled and trained to have this spider-like artificial looking trot? Or can it be a side-effect of the P&P training? His P-tour is fantastic!


I am not a musician although i play the piano, violin and guitar - i still LOVE the music - it may explain my total lack of talent on those instruments to those of you that are accomplished!

I also love his dark and dramatic music - when you can hear it clear it has many interesting nuances. And I love the bells as well! I do play violin and piano, and my mother played a piano in the E-European orchestra and later become a piano teacher. But what do I know... as I've been told recently on COTH, I'm just an immigrant and can't possibly know much...

mbm
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:26 PM
sheesh DA - get with the times!!!! the crowds LOVE those high flying spider legs.... who cares how it was brought about.... as long as it sells tickets!


;)

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:41 PM
here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My_gRwgErt4

altho before i am slaughtered, it is an intermediarre freestyle . not I1

WOW - how can anyone look at that video and compare it to Totilas now and NOT see what we "dissenters" are talking about? Thanks for posting this, mbm. :cool: I think the above video shows a truly spectacular horse - very elastic and very free in the shoulder. That natural trot has now been grossly over-manipulated through training and is a parody of dressage IMO.

AND, for the record, I don't think ANYONE is saying this horse is total crap or not good, etc. Some of us just have issues with SOME things about this horse.

I think EG should use the score to Spiderman for his freestyle next year. :winkgrin:

GreekDressageQueen
Jul. 29, 2009, 04:47 PM
But what do I know... as I've been told recently on COTH, I'm just an immigrant and can't possibly know much...

:eek: What?

Everyone knows serious riders are more tan than the wenches sitting in the indoor watching their trainers ride. :winkgrin:

Hampton Bay
Jul. 29, 2009, 05:38 PM
mbm, you're not the only one who saw the video ans was reminded of the big lick TWH. That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw his trot as well.

I am not fond of this style of movement either. To me it does look artificial, and it looks like an invitation for injury.

bort84
Jul. 29, 2009, 05:54 PM
Well, I don't think that video proves his trot is manufactured. He has all the makings in that video of his current trot. With the increased collection and the additional P&P training that somebody else mentioned, many horses show an increase in action (the added strength in the hind end allows for more self carriage and more expression in his front end and throughout). I don't consider it a bad thing, just a step in his training. He's 9. Perhaps as his training continues, he will find a slightly different mix of his current action and his former fluidity and keep both groups happy.

I also found in that earlier video that he looks less balanced overall (especially noticeable in the trot lengthenings). Now he looks much stronger in his hind end and more able to carry himself. He's more even and steadier in the bridle in newer performances. I think with his advanced training, his hind end has strengthened which, as a side effect, has freed up his front end to do more than it was before. I think his current extensions could maybe be a bit more extended through his entire body (he sometimes looks cramped except for his legs), but they look much stronger now (and more balanced) than they did in that earlier video.

Both performances are proof of a fantastic animal = )

Mike Matson
Jul. 29, 2009, 05:57 PM
I find it interesteing people say "they like the music", but don't say "and the horse dances with it" There is a difference. That's a problem with many freestyles - selecting music the rider likes vs. selecting music the horse "dances" with. I don't see this horse "dancing" with the music.

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:23 PM
:eek: What? Everyone knows serious riders are more tan than the wenches sitting in the indoor watching their trainers ride. :winkgrin:

:lol: good one, thanks!

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:27 PM
mbm, you're not the only one who saw the video ans was reminded of the big lick TWH. That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw his trot as well.

I am not fond of this style of movement either. To me it does look artificial, and it looks like an invitation for injury.

Translation please.

ridgeback
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:41 PM
Translation please.

Tennessee walking horse.

Dressage Art
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:45 PM
Translation please.link from the "other" board http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssjJVnkAO8 (FF past the ad for the puppies. ?? )

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:52 PM
Tennessee walking horse.

It's the "big lick" I don't get. Does that refer to the ones that are trained with weighted shoes to pull their knees up to their noses?

Normally, I'd look "big lick" up in the Urban Dictionary, but...I'm afraid!

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:53 PM
If you just Google 'big lick tennessee" this is where you end up:

http://biglickclick.com/

bort84
Jul. 29, 2009, 06:55 PM
link from the "other" board http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssjJVnkAO8 (FF past the ad for the puppies. ?? )

Ah "park" horses, a slightly better comparison than the big lick walkers I think (especially since they trot...) Though you'll notice that a lot of those park horses are a bit hitchy looking behind. Travelling balanced behind with the motion Totilas has requires a very strong hind end. As his training has progressed, his hind end strength freed up his front end. He's predisposed to looking "spidery" as some people call it. It's in his makeup, which is why I don't think it looks so artificial like some others do. However, I was raised riding saddle seat, soooo my eyes are more accustomed to (and okay with) that kind of action and how it evolves with training, haha.

I think you could put him in most Arabian park classes and probably be WAY up in the ribbons because he's so balanced. Minus the low tail set and lack of dished head, of course = )

meupatdoes
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:06 PM
If you just Google 'big lick tennessee" this is where you end up:

http://biglickclick.com/

Try " 'big lick' horse definition " (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22big+lick%22+horse+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) .

bort84
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:43 PM
Hahaha, yeah, Googling "big lick" without following it up with "horse" or "Tennessee Walker" can create some rather unsavory search results...

TheHorseProblem
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:44 PM
Thanks, meup. Eye-opening, to say the least! I guess there's a lot worse than rollkur out there.

bort84
Jul. 29, 2009, 07:48 PM
Thanks, meup. Eye-opening, to say the least! I guess there's a lot worse than rollkur out there.

Yes, I think that's why I was so surpised to see that particular video (an extreme example of how borderline abusive the big lick world can be) and Totilas mentioned in the same post...

akrogirl
Jul. 29, 2009, 08:27 PM
here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My_gRwgErt4

altho before i am slaughtered, it is an intermediarre freestyle . not I1

I loved that freestyle, especially the music. How cool that he would use one of my all-time favorite songs - "Lady in Black" by Uriah Heep!

Hampton Bay
Jul. 29, 2009, 09:29 PM
Big Lick is just the style of movement that the TWH with the pads has. It is not necessarily derived from soring the horses, or abusive training practices. In the horses bred for that type of movement, it can come naturally. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford the horses who move like that on their own. So some less-than-moral people use some less-than-kind practices to achieve the desired look.

I was only comparing the movement in the front end with that of the Big Lick horses. It is different to me than the park horses, because with the park horses they focus more on the knee being jerked UP. With the TWH, the focus is more on the leg going up and OUT, which is more what I see in Totilas. He's not jerking his knees up to his eyeballs with the forearm past parallel to the ground. Its more out.

A couple videos of Totilas from 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7itK8W6J4E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE

columbus
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:27 AM
I groomed saddlebreds and arabs and they used surgical tubing attached in amazing ways to develop that odd front end movement...that was way back when so I am sure they have invented more ways to get it than they had then. Fire extinguishers were there too. I don't care for the Totilas extension either but as he evolved into it I suspect he may evolve out of it...unless of course he gets world record setting scores for presenting that trot. He seems to be very trainable and I suspect that as he was pushed for more...he gave more...and as he has incredible athletic ability...out popped this odd trot extension (or showy extension depending on your preference). He is relaxed not flapping, full of tension, wide behind, or frantic like the arabs in that video. This seems a natural evolution for his type of movement and his trainability...I think lots of unexpected variations are going to pop up in top level dressage with these top modern warmbloods. They are simply capable of so much more. Here you got the trainability and the mind with the gaits and "POOF" I do know MY eyebrows popped up when he extended. My first thought was eeewww but it is not horrible, it just REMINDS me of some unhappy training methods. He did NOT developed as he is with fire extinguishers and surgical tubing so the comparison is not fair. It is an interesting world. PatO

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:52 AM
I don't feel it's a 'natural evolution', I think the type of horse at the top is just getting a little more consistent, so we will tend to see more similarity in faults/phases of maturity.

In the past, we saw some very long heavy shouldered horses (power horses, this is the side Salinero very slightly tends toward, but he is overall far more modern and balanced than others), some lighter, more balanced horses, and some horses that weren't consistent in type at all. The modern type of horse, and the more and more consistent preference and breeding pattern, is for a very hot, active, energetic, naturally balanced, long legged horse that is not too long in the back, light through the shoulders with a very ideal femur and hind quarter conformation.

To withstand the rigors of years of competition and many shows per year, and to make a picture that seems effortless and allows the rider to use the most subtle, refined aids, the preference seems more and more consistently for a lighter, shorter backed, long legged horse with a lot of natural get up and go, which one gradually controls and reduces tension in, rather than having to hold and balance the horse and produce activity.

It is odd to hear people say any horse that lifts its feet must have something in common with other horses that lift their feet, must be trained the same way, even though everything else is different. Very odd, and concerns me as it makes me think people have a poor eye for both fundamentals and details of dressage training, ie, very little ability to observe either fundamentals or details.

All GP horses have faults, it takes about 2-3 years for a horse to mature as a GP horse.

General lack of strength, specific problem movements, this is normal rather than an exception. Very talented horses are not excluded, nor are experienced riders. This is just another part of training and competition, and it's always incredibly interesting and fun to see the horses mature at GP, because they get better and better, and because, simply by working on very, very basic things, experienced trainers fix things you simply think they can't fix.

Training, lest we forget, is a gradual process. Even the top GP horses in the world are progressing and developing as we watch. We are literally watching them learn GP over the years.

Klimke had a problem with Ahlerich moving irregularly in the pirouettes that he very openly discussed; other horses have had tapping hind toes in piaffe (Balkenhol's Goldstern, which amazingly improved), Farbenfroh and Weltstern had Gumby-horse problems at extended gaits (part of Farben's problem there seemed to be conformational but much of it appeared to be his rather overflowing joie de vivre - Weltstern was a true gumby horse who responded to his own mental tension by flinging himself excitedly in all directions), and just about every horse that has been in the public eye at the top of GP has had various technical issues to overcome.

What is really intriguing, is not that the problems are there, but that many of those problems get fixed.

Some horses have faults that they never completely overcome, such as Ganimede's wow-glad-that-s-over-piaffe(compensated for by the best extended trot in the universe, which the horse appeared to be waiting during the entire test to get a chance to show off that extended trot) or Rembrandt's slightly drooping forearms in the piaffe. It seemed that was just a part of achieving that incredibly steady rhythm for him, and those 'automatic transmission' transitions in and out of piaffe and passage. So like all horses, he lost points in certain places and gained them back elsewhere.

I don't think the slow rhythm at extended trot is intentional(the rhythm at all forms of a gait is supposed to be roughly equal, at least that is the goal, though the piaffe rhythm is by nature a little quicker and the passage rhythm usually slightly slower, the rhythm at the extended trot is not supposed to slow down THIS much). Gal doesn't do it with his other horses, Totilas doesn't do it all the time. I think it's a strength-tension issue. I think that and the openness at the throat will improve with time, but don't expect this horse to ever look like a hunter at the extended trot, it will not and can not happen.

It will never, ever cease to amaze me how much people on bulletin boards seem to expect; in fact, they expect perfection at every single moment from every rider and horse at the top....with the exception that the very demanding and critical eye seems to go to sleep every time horses and riders from their own country hit the stage. :)

meupatdoes
Jul. 30, 2009, 10:35 AM
It is odd to hear people say any horse that lifts its feet must have something in common with other horses that lift their feet, must be trained the same way, even though everything else is different. Very odd, and concerns me as it makes me think people have a poor eye for both fundamentals and details of dressage training, ie, very little ability to observe either fundamentals or details.

Slick.
Would you PLEASE read.

I even specifically mentioned, in order to avert this exact reading comprehension fail, that saying that Totilas's exaggerated movement reminds me of a big lick horse's movement IS NOT saying that I think Edward Gal rides/trains him the way big lick horses are trained. See post #41.

Here I specifically said that I was NOT making a comparison of riding/training methods in posting the video, and here you are yammering about how people who merely suggest that the MOVEMENT THAT IS POPULAR WITH THE DRESSAGE JUDGES THESE DAYS IS STARTING TO LOOK SIMILAR to big lick horses flailihg around think "any horses that lift their feet must be trained the same way."

Even with a specific preemptive clarification you still run headlong into logic fail and commence strident yammer. Try spending a little more time working on your ability to observe the fundamentals and details of READING.

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 12:36 PM
I groomed saddlebreds and arabs and they used surgical tubing attached in amazing ways to develop that odd front end movement...that was way back when so I am sure they have invented more ways to get it than they had then. Fire extinguishers were there too. I don't care for the Totilas extension either but as he evolved into it I suspect he may evolve out of it...unless of course he gets world record setting scores for presenting that trot. He seems to be very trainable and I suspect that as he was pushed for more...he gave more...and as he has incredible athletic ability...out popped this odd trot extension (or showy extension depending on your preference). He is relaxed not flapping, full of tension, wide behind, or frantic like the arabs in that video. This seems a natural evolution for his type of movement and his trainability...I think lots of unexpected variations are going to pop up in top level dressage with these top modern warmbloods. They are simply capable of so much more. Here you got the trainability and the mind with the gaits and "POOF" I do know MY eyebrows popped up when he extended. My first thought was eeewww but it is not horrible, it just REMINDS me of some unhappy training methods. He did NOT developed as he is with fire extinguishers and surgical tubing so the comparison is not fair. It is an interesting world. PatO

Okay, first just wanted to say, I grew up riding/training saddlebreds and earlier, arabs. You may think some of the training techniques are odd, but that doesn't make them cruel, just different. Remember, saddle seat and dressage have VERY different end goals. There are some strengthening "gadgets," as dressage people like to call them, that help build muscle for that kind of movement. The surgical tubing is attached to two cuffs that go around each front ankle. They basically are a way to encourage the horse to balance on his hind end so he can free up his front end. They build strength and help the horse, really, they aren't hard on them - you use them for about 5 minutes MAX. Also, as far as fire extinguishers go, they just puff it a little bit at the far end of the arena to "ear up" the horses. It's hardly cruel... Seems strange to non-saddle seaters, but that's all it really is, strange.

However, Columbus, I do think you were saying that though those techniques do exist as training tools in saddle seat, they are not likely to have been used on Totilas, clearly. Also, many saddlebreds can trot with the same action that Totilas does very early on w/out training. They must move higher than that to win at the top levels, however, so they are trained to enhance that natural ability.

So, I guess all I'm saying is that though some think Totilas' trot looks mechanical, it's actually the way he was born and bred to move. As his training progresses, I'm sure we'll see him evolve even more. Slc makes EXCELLENT points in explaining that training is a process, and each step of the way brings changes. He's far from "finished" and perfect, and I'm very excited to watch him.

Also @ meup: I understood the intention of your post. You didn't say he's getting beat on and being trained with weighted boots, you just said he reminds you of horses that may experience shady training. But in comparing him to as touchy a discipline as the big lick TWHs, you had to expect some people might be a little put off, haha. And I think slc's post may have been directed to a broader audience (she didn't quote you) because some have speculated in the past that Totilas looks like he's been trained with gadgets or that he MUST be getting horrifically Rollkurred daily by big bad EG to move like that = )

mbm
Jul. 30, 2009, 01:02 PM
or that he MUST be getting horrifically Rollkurred daily by big bad EG to move like that = )

i suggest that since EG trains with rollkur and has been very successful with it, and since there are vids out there with him curling Totilas over quite clearly - that it is kind of silly to assume he isnt using rollkur in hs daily training regime.

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:06 PM
i suggest that since EG trains with rollkur and has been very successful with it, and since there are vids out there with him curling Totilas over quite clearly - that it is kind of silly to assume he isnt using rollkur in hs daily training regime.

Sure, but I think the definition of rollkur is different to different people... There are varying degrees of flexion, and I don't necessarily see a horse getting worked BTV for a bit and call that rollkur (such a dirty word). I think many people say rollkur and mean nose cranked to chest 90% of the ride while the hind end gets whipped along ("crank and spank?") That was the image I intended when I said "big bad EG rollkurring poor Totilas all day long." Shoot, some people had a fit when the very quiet and pleasant warmup of Ravel and SP showed Ravel being 5 degrees BTV.

I have never had the opportunity to watch EG train in person, so I'm not going to comment overmuch on his methods. But Totilas looks like he's relaxing into his work. Hopefully EG can keep a handle on his hot brain and keep him mentally sound = )

I guess my main point (not directed at you mbm) is that Totilas can be a freak without being a product of unsavory training. We will see if EG can keep Totilas at the top of his game for a lengthy career. Time will tell whether his method is correct or not. I don't think a horse like Totilas (clearly hot and likely quite sensitive) would put up with anything like "crank and spank" for very long unless he just has the most outstanding temperment ever. In which case, sign me up for some of his babies! (well, sign me up for some of his babies anyway, haha)

mbm
Jul. 30, 2009, 02:30 PM
I don't necessarily see a horse getting worked BTV for a bit and call that rollkur

right, neither do i.... however, "working BTV a little bit" is not what i have seen in vids.... and since the vids are public clinics etc, i hardly think it shows the true magnitude of what the training involves.... sooo... the degree of curling should be observed with that in mind.... and the degree of btv is a tad more than "slightly btv" :lol::lol: altho it isnt with feet on the dashboard etc.

i do agree however that only time will tell... eventually pics and vids will come out with them training and we will get to see a more "real" picture.

i don't like Gal as a rider - He has great skill as a test rider, but i think he is very hard on his horses and many of them revolt. I do hope Totilas stays sound and mentally fresh because he is a super horse. I don't like his front legs.... but he is a very very athletic horse.

bort84
Jul. 30, 2009, 04:48 PM
i don't like Gal as a rider - He has great skill as a test rider, but i think he is very hard on his horses and many of them revolt. I do hope Totilas stays sound and mentally fresh because he is a super horse. I don't like his front legs.... but he is a very very athletic horse.

I have also heard this before (though I have no actual experience to base it on), but each horse teaches us something. Perhaps Totilas will help him become softer if he's truly a bit hard on his horses. He's a once in a lifetime horse and one worth pulling out all the stops for.

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 05:21 PM
You're very smart. Trainers don't just make horses great; horses make trainers great. It's a two way street.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:04 PM
but i think he is very hard on his horses and many of them revolt.

Revolt? Source, please.

mbm
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:41 PM
all you have to do is watch him ride... a couple of his horse start shutting down.... their gaits deteriorate.

of course i am not the only person who sees this.... so it aint just me!

slc2
Jul. 30, 2009, 06:48 PM
Which horses? This is your opinion, but not everyone has the same opinion. Gribaldi is 16 and still in his barn. I never thought Gribaldi appeared to 'deteriorate'.

But all top level horses eventually retire, the work is hard and eventually it's time to stop. If that means they are 'deteriorating'...that's pretty odd, really.

ridgeback
Jul. 30, 2009, 07:13 PM
Maybe they do so well in the show ring becuase that is the only place they get to see where they are going and they are so happy:lol::lol::lol:

Pony Fixer
Jul. 30, 2009, 10:13 PM
So do they revolt?

(verb) rebellion, insurrection, revolt, rising, uprising
organized opposition to authority; a conflict in which one faction tries to wrest control from another

Or do they deteriorate?

(verb) devolve, deteriorate, drop, degenerate
grow worse

Not even close to the same. So, mbm, when you say it's obvious from watching him ride, I wonder if you live in Holland and get to watch him often? Or are you watching YouTube snippets? Usually I think you bring a lot to the table in this BB, but I think you are mixing up facts with your opinions here. And your "rumors". This is the stuff that gets carried on like it *is* fact, when indeed he just isn't your cup of tea.

I saw him, Anky, and HPM in Wellington this year. Lovely, lovely riders. I watched them warm up--and wouldn't you know, it wasn't rollkur for 45 minutes! I even saw a warm up at 10:00 at night when the place was largely deserted.

I like Ravel, I like Totilas. Not even apples and oranges so much. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Each has a good trainer. I can guarantee that SP would get the same over the top movement from Totilas--you see this movement more and more in the modern type upper level horses. It is your prerogative to not like it, however bashing trainers is not furthering that cause.

mbm
Jul. 31, 2009, 01:57 PM
It is your prerogative to not like it, however bashing trainers is not furthering that cause.

just curious. at what point does my opinion become "bashing"? I have said nothing personal, all my comments have been about what can be seen by watching vids (no i am not in holland) of his horses over time.

Pony Fixer
Jul. 31, 2009, 05:28 PM
i have made up my mind i dont like how the horse is ridden ( i am not a fan of Gal as a rider


i personally think it would be put to better use and be much more beautiful, under a different rider......

as for him being 9 - hopefully he will stand up the rigors of top dressage and not disappear like some other super horses we could mention.


i do agree however that only time will tell... eventually pics and vids will come out with them training and we will get to see a more "real" picture.

i don't like Gal as a rider... i think he is very hard on his horses and many of them revolt. I do hope Totilas stays sound and mentally fresh because he is a super horse.


all you have to do is watch him ride... a couple of his horse start shutting down.... their gaits deteriorate.

Your posts on this thread state how you don't like him, he's hard on horses, you "hope" he'll hold up (presumably to that hard life), and that the training is suspect. You also say this is obvious from the current videos out there in the ether. To say you don't like Gal as a ride is one thing (opinion), to continue on about the horse's training (and saying it's basically fact--see it's all there on the video!) is borderline bashing.

I get it, you don't like him. I get it, you don't like the horse. I get it, you don't like the "training". However, since you've never witnessed Gal, the horse, or the training with your own eyes in real life, I don't think you can "state the facts" like you are.

Maybe it's just me, but you seem to really to be wanting to hammer in this point, and I'm not sure why...and since I don't know your level of training I can't comment on whether your opinion on the training is even valid...

freestyle2music
Jul. 31, 2009, 05:40 PM
Your posts on this thread state how you don't like him, he's hard on horses, you "hope" he'll hold up (presumably to that hard life), and that the training is suspect. You also say this is obvious from the current videos out there in the ether. To say you don't like Gal as a ride is one thing (opinion), to continue on about the horse's training (and saying it's basically fact--see it's all there on the video!) is borderline bashing.

I get it, you don't like him. I get it, you don't like the horse. I get it, you don't like the "training". However, since you've never witnessed Gal, the horse, or the training with your own eyes in real life, I don't think you can "state the facts" like you are.

Maybe it's just me, but you seem to really to be wanting to hammer in this point, and I'm not sure why...and since I don't know your level of training I can't comment on whether your opinion on the training is even valid...

Amen !

mbm
Jul. 31, 2009, 06:07 PM
first, i never said i didn't like the horse - quite the contrary in fact. i dont like his front legs but he is a super talented horse.

second, everything else is my opinion - based on what i have seen ... i have said nothing about EG personally etc. - in fact my opinion is based on basically the exact same info everyone else's is that haven't seen him in person.. yet their opinions are ok because they are positive?

it does seem like i repeated myself .. - i must of been having a conversation with different folks... and since there are so many threads going on perhaps i didn't realize i was repeating myself on the same thread?

ETA; my comment about him holding up is re: him being so young and how hard the GP work is..... several other famous horses have dissapeared as they were pushed too soon too fast. i hope this doenst happen to Totilas.

Sorry, ETA again to say - if TPTB want to make dressage a spectator sport with stars etc then they need to get used to the fact that people are going to watch and discuss and have opinions. telling people to shut up is not a way to make a sport viewer friendly.

can you imagine the popularity of say football or baseball is the "armchair quarterback" were told to shut up and not have an opinion?

J Lav
Jul. 31, 2009, 06:28 PM
my big question is: how did he get such a gigantic score with so many errors and bobbles?

and seriously - what are the judges going to do when he gets stronger? give him a 110% ?

eta: i wish we could see the movement by movement scores.... this would be really educational and might just answer a lot of questions :)

Although we do not get to see individual scores for the movements in the Freestyle (as they are not entered in to the computers in each judges box until the end of the test) we did get to see them in the GP the day before.

All 5 judges marks for each and every movement come up on a scoreboard as the horse is going through the test.

So I can tell you that the horse scored several 10's especially for Piaffe and Passage but was also marked down for the errors, less then desired ground cover in the extended trots and swinging changes.

However despite the errors the good stuff is just so good it fully deserves the marks he gets. In the flesh this horse is truly awesome and no matter how he is ridden at home at no time at Hickstead did we see anything but a horse and rider working together in the sort of harmony that has not been very common at the top in recent years.

It is easy to bring up a Freestyle score even with errors as, has already been pointed out, if a mistake is made and the rider is clever then that movement can be repeated again and the final score will be an average of the 2 attempts so if a line of tempis has a mistake and is consequently scored as a 4 and then they are repeated without the mistake and given an 8 then the final score for the tempis will be a 6.

I also loved the music and thought it suited the horse perfectly. It will always be down to personal preferences and you can guarantee that any freestyle performance will have those who loved it and those who hated it!

My overall highlights from Hickstead this year were (apart from EG and Toto) Laura Becholsteimer and Mistral Hojris who just looked so much a partnership now they must be in with a chance of an individual medal at Windsor (were only .3% behind Parzival and Adelinde in the GP and would have been above them except for an error in the tempis) and Kyra Kyrklund's wonderful Luso Stallion Rico who won just about everything in the small tour.

I was also delighted to see the first horse in the GP was a prue bred Freisian, again only 9 years old, who was stunning and scored a very creditable 64.9%.

nadasy
Jul. 31, 2009, 07:35 PM
There is a book called Tug of War , by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, who is a leading veterinarian in Germany. He also writes with Anja Beran a book called: "Classical Schooling with the Horse in Mind: Gentle Gymnastic Training Techniques". They are both available on Amazon. The video by Heuschmann is: "If Horses Could Speak", and is excellent.

It discusses the modern dressage training vs. the classical. It is about the back mover, vs. the leg mover. It's very interesting, and after also seeing the video 'If Horses Could Speak', he discovered through extensive research, and the video is fantastic, that the back is a muscle of locomotion, and is not a carrying muscle. He shows that the ribs actually function as an accordion. Only if the back is relaxed can the back function as it should.

The leg movers appeal to some, but by and large the research and the focus is towards a more relaxed back, allowing the horse perform more easily and last longer. The ones that tend to be more leg movers are horses that the vets say they just can't cure.

Now this is just one opinion. Don't flame me for posting this information, but I think it warrants some thought if we want these horses, particularly the up and coming ones, to be able to work up through the levels to GP and not break down and burn out before their time.

Maybe the time has come for more thoughtful riding, and maybe not. Just a thought and posing the other side - or- another side to the story.

siegi b.
Jul. 31, 2009, 07:49 PM
nadasy states ... "he (Dr. Heuschmann) discovered through extensive research, and the video is fantastic, that the back is a muscle of locomotion, and is not a carrying muscle."

The back is not a muscle but rather a part of the horse's body comprised of many things, including bone, muscles of different sorts, tissue, etc. etc. I have seen where research indicates that the horse's back was not meant to carry weight, so maybe that's what you meant to say?

nadasy also states .... "It discusses the modern dressage training vs. the classical. It is about the back mover, vs. the leg mover."

I'm not trying to take things out of context but your post suggests that there's only one or the other, with the leg mover obviously being the one that breaks down. My point in this is that you can have a back and leg mover - that the two are not mutually exclusive - so what is this argument about?

Not trying to flame you but merely stating another opinion on the subject and maybe trying to clarify some things.

Home Again Farm
Jul. 31, 2009, 07:59 PM
Youtube is known for their bad quality of both picture and sound

I just watched this version :


http://www.viddler.com/explore/hickstead2009/videos/17/


WOW, just wow.

Pony Fixer
Aug. 1, 2009, 04:01 PM
mbm, maybe you didn't realize you kept saying the same thing and I took it as harping. If so, I apologize.

However, my point about not really being able to call someone's whole training system suspect just by YouTube clips holds. Unless you have spent time at at clinic with him or similar I'm not sure you (the general you) can make that judgement.

I have clinic-ed with some I think are fabulous riders, getting great scores and found the training system "lacking". Sometimes it's a global disagreement with how things should be done, sometimes it's due to the specifics of that clinician with a particular horse. I could never watch a few tests and determine whether their methods would work for me, or if they are "suspect". And I suspect you can't either.