Neverending Hoof Abscess - Suggestions?

[Emy]

I am looking for suggestions. The 6yr old Hano gelding (normally great feet) I train developed a large abscess in the inside bulb of his right hind. It initally burst 2 weeks ago (vet gave him antib's, I poulticed with hot Animalintex, flushed with Betadine, kept it clean and wrapped ect) he came nicely sound, started working and on the third day back under saddle another "pocket" of abscess has burst out of the center of his frog. He now has a large U shaped cavern that is DEEP and quite wide, running from the center of his heel to the inside wall of his hoof. He is totally sound and I am flushing then stuffing the hole with Betadined gauze to keep any dirt out but I am worried at the depth of this hole and the likely hood that there is going to be even more come out. Does anyone have a similar experience and wisdom to share? We have a show in 4 weeks that I am nervous about him making (had to scratch from one the week it burst plus he is for sale with ppl waiting to come try him). Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! I feel so bad for the guy.

[twofatponies]

No advice, but just to say a friend of mine is having the same problem with her gelding - never a lame step in his life, but maybe with all the rain this summer he's abcessed twice in the same foot (or the same one has recurred?) over a six week period, and she's about had it with all the soaking and wrapping! Good luck!

[ttldr1]

What is this horse being fed? If the feed is high in sugar it can result in re-occuring abcess issues. I fought this with my gelding for almost a year. He abcesed, resolved with vet and farrier intervention, came sound for a couple of weeks and the cycle started all over again. The barn I boarded at fed sweet feed and one day the woman at the feed store asked if he was getting the sweet the barn owner fed, I said yes and she advised I cut out the sweet and change to a low sugar feed (I chose Stragedy). I have watched his sugar intake since and have not had too much of a problem (unless I go a little treat crazy) in the last 8 years.

[Kristiesunny]

Have you called a vet? What do xrays show?

[equineartworks]

Have you called a vet? What do xrays show?

I ditto Kristiesunny...

abscesses are a pain!!!!! Hope you get to the bottom of it!

[EiRide]

He is totally sound and I am flushing then stuffing the hole with Betadined gauze to keep any dirt out but I am worried at the depth of this hole and the likely hood that there is going to be even more come out. Does anyone have a similar experience and wisdom to share? .

Dolly. Dolly the Potential Olympic Threat is an elderly, swaybacked buckskin Appy mare that I took in so she would not go for dog food. Basically, since 2003 she has stood around my fields, eaten, and cost me money. :-)

About once a year Dolly gets an abscess. She's barefoot and has a sort of ridge along the white line which collects grit, some of which eventually works into the hoof and abscesses. Apparently, she has always had this issue (the least of her conformational faults, I might add--she could be the model for one of those sketches in 19th century equestrian books about the faults of the horse), as I know the people at the farm where her owner abandoned her and stopped paying board or responding to attempts to communicate, and she was there at least 10 or 15 years before she came here.

But I digress. Dolly's abscess routine is typically thusly: she gets sore, then she gets grade 4-5 lame, then she blows her abscess and I keep it clean for a few weeks before she returns to normal life. However, year before last she got the mother of all abscess, the nightmare abscess from h*ll which would not burst and would not heal and cost me a number of vet visits (which I generally don't bother with now that I am Queen Of Home Abscess Treatments) including x-rays and discussion of surgery. Basically, it was a massive pus pocket and it was directly under the coffin bone and far, far to close to drill and tap.

Dolly was grade 4-5 lame for THREE MONTHS. I was completely at my wit's end when it finally blew, a million poultices, soaks, and nightmares later. And it was DISGUSTING, and it drained for weeks. Literally. As in, four weeks later it was still oozing and needed to be enlarged and treated even more when my farrier came (my vet had gotten it to burst after some very very aggressive poulticing).

She had a pit the size of a PA strip mine in her foot--it scared me just to look at it. She was so much happier, though! I did a little cotton and vet wrap, duct tape a boot and turned her on out with it, but it took three months for her to completely grow out The Pit. She never was troubled by it again.

So the moral of my story is, don't get too twisted up as long as you are doing your best to keep it clean and he is sound and happy.

[atr]

Is he sound?

Back in the dark ages, once the horse was sound and the hole had been tubbed for a few days, the farrier would shoe with a leather pad packed with iodine-soaked oakum.

Nowadays, if I had a sale horse, I'd be inclined to x-ray, too, but the above protocol works very well and is REALLY EASY!!

[Einstein]

Call the vet, you want to make sure there isn't an infection brewing deep in the hoof..:cool:

[FatPalomino]

Use CleanTrax!!! Awesome stuff!

[Emy]

Humm, thank you for all of your advice. The vet saw it before and after it burst then, rechecked it this morning and told me to just keep doing what I am doing (flushing and stuffing with iodine gauze). The infection is deep within the frog cleft and until I start to pull out gauze pads with iodine that hasn't been absorbed I must continue my routine.
He is very sound to ride but I am having trouble making the stupid vetwrap/ducktape boot survive a whole training session. He is still getting some swelling in that hind leg as well that leads me to think there is more to come. In regards to his feed he just gets Rx cubes, beet pulp, vit's, minerals and yeast and lots of hay because he is a hot number. He has also been out on lots of pasture this summer. I will remember to take it easy with the sugar cubes though. Thanks again!
Emily

[Petstorejunkie]

no antibiotics that can just cause an abscess to disguise itself as healed.
no bute same deal
YES TO CLEANTRAX please dont sit around soaking hooves in betadine and epsome salts... that is sooo 20 years ago! seriously clean trax is what you need. it's easy and effective and you'll only have to use it once maaaaybe twice.
work him, and ignore that it's there. yeah it will cause a nasty chip in 6 months but its about function not hoofie fashion.


...oh and get him on something low in NSC. My horse is no where near being a threat metabolically and i keep him on low NSC.

[FatPalomino]

no antibiotics that can just cause an abscess to disguise itself as healed.


????

My vet disagrees.
I've seen abx work wonders on horses where you can't get to the abscess right away.

[BornToRide]

Was he given IM antibiotics or orally? Only a few antibiotics are strong enough to work on something in the hoof....

Regardless of a treatment being 20 years old, soaking is still the best approach along with using ichtamol ointment to draw anything else out. If he does not resolve soon, I would have x-rays taken to make sure there's no foreign object in there or other issue that might be causing the problem.

Clean Trax and White Lightning are generally fungal treatments for thrush and white line disease, rather than abscessing treatments, although they might help too. However, I have never heard it being suggested as an abscessing treatment.

[rcloisonne]

Was he given IM antibiotics or orally? Only a few antibiotics are strong enough to work on something in the hoof....
I somewhat agree with this. The areas of abscessing in the hooves are poorly vascularized meaning very little drug gets to the problem site. Even IV antibiotics given multiple times per day are often ineffective. Hoof abscess CAN be treated by direct antibiotic lavage to the area.

Regardless of a treatment being 20 years old, soaking is still the best approach along with using ichtamol ointment to draw anything else out. If he does not resolve soon, I would have x-rays taken to make sure there's no foreign object in there or other issue that might be causing the problem.
My concern with long standing hoof abscesses is septic pedal osteitis. Radiographs are needed and should be taken regularly until the infection has resolved. If there is bone involvement surgery may be required.

Clean Trax and White Lightning are generally fungal treatments for thrush and white line disease, rather than abscessing treatments, although they might help too. However, I have never heard it being suggested as an abscessing treatment.
Thrush and WLD are almost always caused by anaerobic bacteria, not fungi.

[FatPalomino]

Was he given IM antibiotics or orally? Only a few antibiotics are strong enough to work on something in the hoof....[quote]
That's what many think. But ask a vet that's been doing it for years (oral abx) and see what they say.



[quote]Clean Trax and White Lightning are generally fungal treatments for thrush and white line disease, rather than abscessing treatments, although they might help too. However, I have never heard it being suggested as an abscessing treatment.

You haven't been around top quality vets and farriers much, eh? Even search for Clean Trax on this forum and you will find a lot of information.

In case you don't believe the other COTHers that have used it, here's what Rood and Riddle have to say about it:
http://www.rrvp.com/breederssupplycompany/cleantrax.htm?moreinfo

[Adamantane]

Leased a TB mare ten years ago who developed an abscess that would not resolve. She also would not go along with soaking. (which leads to a mess in the winter.)

After 3-4 weeks, vet (Dick Mansmann, who "wrote the book" on equine lameness) finally carved away vast parts of the hoof -- my eyes got round as he kept carving -- and had the farrier shoe her with bar shoes and a plate.

In the middle of the winter with the wind blowing down the aisle every night I would unscrew that blasted plate and repack it with fresh iodine soaked gauze. (No systemic antibiotics for reasons noted. Hard to achieve therapeutic levels in poorly vascularized areas.)

Abscess finally surrendered to unrelenting treatment, and we eliminated the plate -- good thing because the bloody screws kept getting lost or damaged -- but it took months for the hoof to regrow to the point we could eliminate the bar shoes in front.

[BornToRide]

Thrush and WLD are almost always caused by anaerobic bacteria, not fungi.


What is thrush?Thrush is a yeast infection that causes white patches in the mouth and on the tongue. Thrush is most common in babies and older adults, but it can occur at any age.
http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/tc/thrush-topic-overview

Last I heard yeast was a form of fungi and WLD is probably caused by similar pathogens:) It is also interestingly to note that diabetics suffer more from candida too btw - we usually see more thrush and WL issues in horses that generally get a diet that is too rich (High in NSCs) as well......coincidence? I bet not :)

[caballus]

http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/tc/thrush-topic-overview

Last I heard yeast was a form of fungi and WLD is probably caused by similar pathogens:) It is also interestingly to note that diabetics suffer more from candida too btw - we usually see more thrush and WL issues in horses that generally get a diet that is too rich (High in NSCs) as well......coincidence? I bet not :)
Controversially Lisa St. John of http://www.lavendersageequine.com submits that laminitis and other situations are yeast/fungus related (systemically). Doing my own reasoning and research I tend to think that this is probably true. Especially the Cushings, IR and metabolic horses. Of course, yeast thrives on sugars so a body overloaded with sugars is going to make a great host for fungii. On the other hand, we have so 'processed' equine feeds that I believe we are, literally, starving them of essential nutrients thus, literally, our horses are 'starving' - Lacking live nutrients in live food i.e. vegetables, fruits, nuts and herbs that are essential for a healthy immune system; a healthy body in its entirety.

I have recently put my own "late stage Cushings" mare on a vegetable and fruit diet and the results are remarkable. I have put up a page at http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/2009/ARTICLES/misty09.htm that is chronicling the results. Again, please notice that I said, at the very beginning, this is controversial to many. As I believe horse's are the FINAL say, and with Misty, this is her FINAL chance to either recover or be euthanized before winter, suffice to say that as of right now, a little over 7 weeks into this diet program, I am VERY optimistic that we'll have Misty around with us for many more years to come. But I leave this for each reader to research and make an individual assessment.

What goes INTO the bodies of our horses is what affects and grows OUT of the hooves. No hoof - no horse and visa versa ... can't separate the hooves from the horse. We MUST treat the WHOLE horse at the same time the hooves are being addressed in their health - Body, Mind AND Spirit.

[rcloisonne]

http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/tc/thrush-topic-overview

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Is that the extent of your knowledge? There's plenty of information on thrush in horses. Hint: it has nothing to do with the disease humans get.

Her's a couple of articles:

Thrush is a common infection of the hoof that most often affects the tissues of the frog adjacent to the sulci. In severe cases, thrush can also invade the white line, sole, and sensitive layers of the foot resulting in a potentially permanent lameness. The bacterium Fusobacterium necrophorum is often the invading thrush-inducing microorganism; however, other anaerobic (those that grow in environments with little to no oxygen) bacteria and fungi have been identified as potential culprits.
www.thehorse.com/pdf/factsheets/thrush/thrush.pdf

Many types of bacterium can cause thrush, although Fusobacterium necrophorum is a common player. This bacterium is an anaerobic (survives without oxygen) organism that has the ability to invade and infect the frog's sensitive horny tissue. http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11097

Last I heard yeast was a form of fungi and WLD is probably caused by similar pathogens:) It is also interestingly to note that diabetics suffer more from candida too btw - we usually see more thrush and WL issues in horses that generally get a diet that is too rich (High in NSCs) as well......coincidence? I bet not :)
Have you actually ever researched this or do you just go by what you've "heard"? :rolleyes: Plenty of information on WLD out there too, BTR. Get a clue.

[rcloisonne]

Controversially Lisa St. John of http://www.lavendersageequine.com submits that laminitis and other situations are yeast/fungus related (systemically)...
And we all know how well researched her information is... :rolleyes: :dead:

[rcloisonne]

[QUOTE=BornToRide;4269178]Was he given IM antibiotics or orally? Only a few antibiotics are strong enough to work on something in the hoof....[quote]
That's what many think. But ask a vet that's been doing it for years (oral abx) and see what they say.
There isn't a vet around here that gives antibiotics to treat a hoof abscess unless the owner demands them. Sorta like when MDs give out antibiotics for the common cold. Useless.

[Nojacketrequired]

If it continues, I would have it x-rayed just to be sure there is no foreign body in there.

NJR

[FatPalomino]

There isn't a vet around here that gives antibiotics to treat a hoof abscess unless the owner demands them. Sorta like when MDs give out antibiotics for the common cold. Useless.

Ask some of the vets that have spent a lot of time at Rood and Riddle, then get back to me ;)

[caballus]

And we all know how well researched her information is... :rolleyes: :dead:Good thing her clients' horses don't know, eh?

[Piney Woods]

I am not a vet or farrier but I have taken care of a barnful of horses for more years than I want to admit. I have only anecdotal information and I do not profess to understand how it works but anything that lessens the amount of time I have to watch a horse suffer with a three legged lameness and the less time I have to spend under said three legged horse, the happier I am.
I have an older OTTB that used to suffer from month+ long, hopping lame abscesses each summer during the rainy season. After spending several summers doing the daily ichthamol, packing, duct tape, SMZ route, my farrier mentioned that another client had used Clean Trax with good results. Since then, the minute I am sure it's an abscess, I do the Clean Trax routine and it's soon over, not to return until the next summer. If it doesn't work, it certainly doesn't hurt and it takes a lot less time than the alternate protocol. I also have occasionally used the direct antibiotic lavage routine if there is access to the drainage hole.
Good luck with your horse. Abscesses are a plague!

[staceyk]

Hi,

My 3 year old hanoverian is in a vet clinic as we speak, recovering from having his coffin bone debrided at 1pm. In March and June he had abscess-like symptoms in the same hoof -- both times he got better in a few weeks, but I never saw evidence that the abscess burst.

I got x-rays both times, in March and June. The first set showed an abscess at the toe, and a tract. The second set showed bone loss from pedal osteitis adjacent to the abscess (or it may have been a bruise). Do not, do not, do not, let these things drag on too long. A lot of seasoned horse people take abscesses lightly, and usually they do resolve in a routine manner. But BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN IN THAT HOOF and you might not find out until the damage is irreversible.

But if things don't start to look better in a week or so, don't risk you're horses long term health.

Good luck!

[Emy]

Thanks for the advice
He recieved Antib's IM x 3 before we knew actually realized it was an abscess - There was heavy stocking up in the hind leg and we stupidly missed the most obvious thing thinking it was possibly Lymphangitis.
Thank you Stableswot, I've had him a year and a half and although he is a breeders sales horse who will eventually go, I absolutley love him to pieces.
He was a bugger to start but has turned into a really lovely guy.
I think I will have him x-rayed just in case.
I am in Ontario, is Clean Trax avaliable here?

[Ghazzu]

The most important issue with a hoof abcsess is establishing drainage.

A well formed abscess is pretty resistant to systemic antibiotics, because, as has been said, an abscess is the body's method of walling the pathogen off.
Local antibiotics are a great deal more effective.

Still, in prolonged cases of something nasty still inside the hoof capsule, I'd probably go ahead and use antibiotics to head off osteomyelitis.

I happen to be a fan of mastitis ointment for foot abscesses, and sometimes powdered metronidazole packed in the defect.

Clean Trax is essentially chlorine bleach. It will kill bacteria and fungi. (and thrush in horses is indeed Fusobacterium necrophorum, though I still have a fondness for the old name of the organism--Spherophorus necrophorus--more melifluous, don't you think?)

As for soaking, prolonged soaking softens the entire foot. Not really a good thing. Localized application of an Epsom salt or similar poultice is better.
And, once the abscess is open and draining, all you're doing with soaking is marinating the wound in bacteria. Flushing it with a syringe full of saline and a teat cannula is probably cleaner.

[nextyear]

If the abscess's continue besides the obvious of X-Ray's you might want to check for Lyme. I have had 2 horses that had chronic abscess problems one was a 3yr old the other 20 yrs and both had high titers. Both horses resolved the abscess's after a lenghty round on Doxy but took the 20 yr old 2X's longer.
As far as treatments I second the clean Trax and another old line treatment I had good luck with was sugardine (betadine mixed with brown sugar packed in the foot overnight)

[foggybok]

The most important issue with a hoof abcsess is establishing drainage.

A well formed abscess is pretty resistant to systemic antibiotics, because, as has been said, an abscess is the body's method of walling the pathogen off.
Local antibiotics are a great deal more effective.

Still, in prolonged cases of something nasty still inside the hoof capsule, I'd probably go ahead and use antibiotics to head off osteomyelitis.

I happen to be a fan of mastitis ointment for foot abscesses, and sometimes powdered metronidazole packed in the defect.

Clean Trax is essentially chlorine bleach. It will kill bacteria and fungi. (and thrush in horses is indeed Fusobacterium necrophorum, though I still have a fondness for the old name of the organism--Spherophorus necrophorus--more melifluous, don't you think?)

As for soaking, prolonged soaking softens the entire foot. Not really a good thing. Localized application of an Epsom salt or similar poultice is better.
And, once the abscess is open and draining, all you're doing with soaking is marinating the wound in bacteria. Flushing it with a syringe full of saline and a teat cannula is probably cleaner.

Ah for the days when you could walk around saying --Spherophorus necrophorus..............:)

But yes, as you and other posters have mentioned, thrush is bacterial.. and not to be confused with thrush in humans, which is a completely different thing....kind of like choke and choke.....

[merrygoround]

I am heading for the storm cellar as I throw this out. .....But the last two or three horses I dealt with for continuous heel abscesses where cured by switching farriers. In other words-- they were developing corns and abscesses from imbalance.

[Emy]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help. Took him to a Gold Dressage show this past weekend and he was a star after almost 5 weeks off. With the help of the farrier and vet, the abscess seems to have cleared. He was totally sound, his hoof looks great and he even won his First Level class with a 72% :)

[Adamantane]

That's wonderful news! Congratulations to you both!

What did you, your farrier and your vet decide to do finally in order to turn things around?

Sounds as if everyone might want to add your successful experience to their universe of possible approaches because it was so successful for you and everyone else involved!

Adamantane

[Emy]

The farrier came on the Monday, dug the rotten parts of sole and frog out that I had been religiously flushing with 2% iodine and packing with epison salts and gauze - he gave me a much stonger iodine % (I think 18) to then spray onto the newly revealed tissue to toughen it up. He had cut over half of the frog off which initally feaked me out but I scrubbed and sprayed it onto the hoof 4x's a day and was very careful about his turnout and schooling footing. Thursday-Sunday at the show I followed this regime and he was totally sound with no hoof break up or signs of stress.
(Word of warning he did blister on the back of his white sock where I had overzelously spritzed iodine by accident) Since the weekend he has been great and today I even felt confident enough to take him for a hand gallop around a rain softened field.