But seriously, Practical Horseman and [British] Eventing Dutton photo series

[rebeginner]

How weird was it that I got both magazines on the same day? Same photo spread, similar article on rotational falls, different authors.

And,no, I did NOT receive a tin-foil hat in that mail delivery...;)

[enjoytheride]

So I was thinking about this as I read the article, how many people have time to think about if they are going to fall and what they are going to do? Most of my falls are the WHAM kind and I'm on the ground before I know it. If I fall of in a good manner I roll, if not I SPLAT on the ground but it depends on the type of flinging that has occured.

[Ajierene]

It probably has something to do with the speed of fall and quick analysis abilities of the rider.

For example, for the first time ever in my life, a pony reared up and went over backwards on me.

This was my thought process: Um...why can I see the sky when I am technically looking down at the horse's shoulder? *WHAM* I CAN"T BREATHE!....I'm ok, I'm ok.

Last spring, had a jumping lesson, screwed up the distance in an in and out, which resulted in mare refusing and me going forward.

This was my thought process: Damn, messed up. Look, there's the standard, well, let me put my hand out and push it out of my way and roll onto my shoulder as I hit the ground (I have NEVER put my hands out to catch my fall, only move standards out of the way of my falling face).


So, if the rotational fall has been experienced before, the speed of fall is relatively slow, the person has quick analysis abilities (from practicing as well as innate abilities), or other factors can effect thought process while falling.

[annikak]

I think this is somewhat like muscle memory-. He's done it so often (not falling, but riding) that a lot of what he does is second nature. I think that is the logic behind teaching the emergency dismount.

I totally agree that you're not thinking ''Now, I must tuck- and put my arms out...or wait, didn't someone tell me that I shouldn't do that? Okay...":lol: But I think if you have a lot of hours in the saddle, on uneven ground, you are more likely to be able to adjust with out thinking...and that is the point in the 10,000 hours in the saddle (or is it more? ;))

I was amazed at the set of pictures- and glad that Philip let them use the pictures for education.

[Classic Melody]

What struck me about Phillip's photos (which I haven't seen since soon after the event, so my memory might be fuzzy) is that he stayed well back over the horse. I know my instinct when things start going to wrong is to climb up the horse's neck. The pros know about staying back, way back, that it's a much safer position. If Phillip had jumped up the horse's neck I don't think anyone would be seeing those photos.

[piaffeprincess98]

I don't see how learning how to come off during a rotational fall will help, especially since 99% of PH's readers will probably never jump a fence high enough to have the chance of experiencing one. I guess I just think it's a bad choice of photos since it is not a "typical fall"
I was at Fair Hill when that happened and Ralph got an amazing series of photos. It looks like Phillip just let go of the reins early on. My incorrect instinct is to hold the reins. I don't fall off very often, but when I do, I always worry about my horse running off!

[dogchushu]

What struck me about Phillip's photos (which I haven't seen since soon after the event, so my memory might be fuzzy) is that he stayed well back over the horse. I know my instinct when things start going to wrong is to climb up the horse's neck. The pros know about staying back, way back, that it's a much safer position. If Phillip had jumped up the horse's neck I don't think anyone would be seeing those photos.

The PH article mentioned that Phillip did many things right before the fall. He knew he was in trouble, sat up, and slipped the reins. It made a point to mention that it's important to recognize when you're about to get into trouble.

They then said that you should practice visualization to program your reflexes. I'm not sure how much chicken me should visualize falling! But I do like the idea of being set up for success (not jumping ahead, not hanging onto the reins, giving your horse a chance to save you both) before the incident.

[RAyers]

We need to thank Mike Pilato, "MedicalMike" here on COTH, for his efforts too.

[LynLyn]

I thought it was one of the best and very graphic reminders of why you shoud stay over the middle of your horse. Period.

[asterix]

piaffe, I'm not going to disagree with you about the vast majority of PH readers never experiencing a rotational fall, but I'm here to tell you that it is NOT because of height.

I had a rotational fall last winter off my green horse over a 3' vertical in the ring. Freakish, yes. Because the fence was too big, or big, period? no.

I found it very interesting that Mike et. al. said to put your hands out -- when I learned to ride we were taught NOT to put your hands out as you would only break your arms (I imagine they were not thinking of a rotational fall).

During my fall, yes, I did have time to think of several different things. Mostly they were about my horse -- I was aware that he was falling, and I could not stop thinking about HIM. I think that actually saved me from injury, as I landed like a penguin, sliding across the soft wet sand of the arena on my chest and belly -- I was pretty relaxed when I fell, because I was so distracted. I got sand EVERYWHERE but my only actual injury?

The fingers of my right hand (fell to the left) -- holding on to the rein, which I ripped nearly in half.

Just lucky the horse landed next to me, and not on to me.

I agree that the photos are VERY useful, and I'm glad PD let them be published in this format.

But, please, don't think this can't happen to you just because you don't jump *** fences.

[enjoytheride]

I had a rotational fall over a 2 foot high fence. I landed on my shoulder/head and I got sand in my underwear and in my horse's ears. There was no time to think about it at all, thankfully my horse landed right next to me and not on me.

I assume he is sitting back because that is more of an eventer thing, being behind the motion in case of an emergency not because he knew it was coming. The rein slipping would be interesting to hear from him, did he drop the reins on purpose or an accident?

[retreadeventer]

I think that article is worth the price of my entire year's subscription.
I LOFF Medical Mike, and Danny too - they are probably NEAT together in a clinic, I wonder if the USEA will have them do something for the annual meeting. What a great cover photo too and do you see the Animals To Wear saddle pad? Cool!
I think Phillip is wonderful for allowing the photos to be published. What a great rider he is and how lucky we are to have him in the US. His immense talent just keeps exhibiting itself over and over. Watching him ride in a competition from the training on up always educates me, no matter whether he is working a greenie or riding a three star.
I tend to hang on the reins too much. Wow. I learned a LOT reading this (Hey Mythical, good job) and will try very hard to do it more like Phillip - LET GO - break the fall, roll over the shoulder, kick away from the horse and WALK AWAY.

[JER]

I found it very interesting that Mike et. al. said to put your hands out -- when I learned to ride we were taught NOT to put your hands out as you would only break your arms (I imagine they were not thinking of a rotational fall).


Always get a limb out in front of you if you can. Always. Break those arms every chance you get.

Arm and clavicle fractures are merely a PITA and not life-threatening. Same goes for your legs -- better to let them hit first than to crack your pelvis, which can be life-threatening.

In a rotational fall, you can get separated from the horse and fall just perfectly -- but then the horse crushes you anyway. 'Knowing how to fall' shouldn't lull anyone into a false sense of security about rotational falls. You don't always have enough time to react -- especially if you remain rotating with the horse -- and the laws of physics aren't always on your side.

I haven't seen either article yet but I'm a big fan of Medical Mike. :)

[Sebastian]

(Oh, thank god...normal people...)

I agree with the others, while most of us will not experience exactly what happened to PD in the article photos...many of us have witnessed (and experienced) similar things.

The worst falls (some rotational) I saw while I was doing Hunters and Jumpers were over relatively small fences.

A recent experience of my own was with my super green and super athletic young mare. Over a little 2 ft vertical, she over jumped and then over reached on the landing -- to the point that she grabbed her front foot with her hind leg and pinned it. Our landing was reminiscent of the alien space ship at the end of Men in Black... Luckily I stayed in the middle and as we came to a stop, I had the presence of mind to roll away from her. And, thankfully, we were both OK -- minus a few creaks and groans, mostly mine...lol.

As Reed stated else where, it's time for a wake up call. Equestrian sports ARE dangerous, and pretending it isn't only leads to more disasters. We NEED to think about these things. As the article stated, we have very little time to react -- if at all. So, if you've got a plan in your head and the memory even flashes through your head for that split second...your odds can only improve.

Seb :)

[kimbrawner]

I was amazed when I received my copy of PH in the mail this month. It took alot of guts for a magazine to publish the Phillip Dutton series of photos along with the article about the economic burdens of not wearing helmets. I will be interested to read the editorials next month. :)

I consider myself an expert at the million different ways of managing to become separated from a horse, but I thought the article of topic was extremely well done. Especially, the information about dropping the reins to allow the horse plenty of freedom to recover itself if possible and to allow time for you to protect yourself.

As an ICU nurse, I agree that any valuable piece of knowledge that prevents the life-changing injury (tidbits like wearing helmets and sacrificing arms/ hands to save the singular head) should be taught at the very basic level and practiced before riders have the chance to possibly experience the rotational fall. Kudos to the authors for helping make our sport safer!!!

[ZiggyStardust]

I don't see how learning how to come off during a rotational fall will help, especially since 99% of PH's readers will probably never jump a fence high enough to have the chance of experiencing one. I guess I just think it's a bad choice of photos since it is not a "typical fall"

Because a rider is statistically more likely to suffer catastrophic injury or death in a rotational fall. Sometimes it only takes once.

[JER]

piaffe, I'm not going to disagree with you about the vast majority of PH readers never experiencing a rotational fall, but I'm here to tell you that it is NOT because of height.

As others have mentioned this...

It's true and not true. A horse can have a rotational fall over an obstacle of any height or over an obstacle of no height or over no obstacle at all. :) The scientific term is 'ass over teakettle.'

However, the circa-2000 studies by TRL/Liverpool found that the 30% fatal/serious-injury-type of rotational fall happened when a horse of a certain height (16hh) hit a fence of a certain height with a certain part of its body. I'm too tired right now to remember the specifics but it was something in the range of the elbow. The obstacle height was 3'6" or so, IIRC.

Those rotationals result in a pattern of injury that includes killers like blunt chest trauma and serious head/cervical injuries.

Rotational falls over lower fences of the same 'average' horse result in a different pattern of injury. Rather than crushing the rider's head/neck and chest, the damage is lower down, resulting in injuries to the hips/pelvis/lumbar spine.

[asterix]

Always get a limb out in front of you if you can. Always. Break those arms every chance you get.

Arm and clavicle fractures are merely a PITA and not life-threatening. Same goes for your legs -- better to let them hit first than to crack your pelvis, which can be life-threatening.

Yes, this makes perfect sense -- it just struck me how essentially short-sighted it was, the way I (and I assume others) were taught -- that would protect our arms, but ....(!).

One of Mike's points in the article is how people in OTHER sports are taught to fall/crash (like ice hockey players) -- putting your arms out is part of it.

In college we had a girl on the riding team who was a beginner rider, but a very experienced (recruited) field hockey player. She got bucked off pretty hard one semester, put her arms out to protect herself, and broke one badly enough to need a pin. We all thought this was evidence of her being a NEW rider, when in fact it is beginning to sound like she may have been a BETTER faller than we all were.

I was not suggesting that my fall, or other "slo mo" rotations, could be as dangerous as the high speed cross country falls (for one thing, I hit the ground long enough before my horse that I could have rolled out of the way...if I had had the mental clarity to do so -- another fall "rule" that caught me out -- everyone was yelling "move, move, move" and I was thinking "aren't you supposed to stay still in case you are injured?")...

simply that rotations CAN happen to the average rider, so this is not totally useless info.

[LKF]

I've had 2 rotational falls. One galloping at the track (horse broke down in front of us and we got tangled) and one on cross country (over an upright fence). For me, during the falls it happened so quickly that I didn't know what was happening. But I do remember people coming to help because I heard them shouting out orders to "Sit on his head!". I was under the horse (both times) and I think that it was the quick thinking of those folks and someone sitting on their heads that saved me from getting crushed and thrashed in the face any further.

[LisaB]

I still think we (the usea) should sponsor some vaulting clinics. I remember a family friend's daughter went riding with us. They were from the UK and she took a few lessons there. Nothing major. Anyway, us being rowdy cowboys, went out galavanting and she felt uncomfortable with how we took off on her. I was like 8 or so, so forgive my rudeness about it. Anyway, she fell off by rolling over the back of the horse and landed on her feet. She told us that they learned to groom and tack the horse first and then they learned to fall off FIRST. Then went onto regular riding.
I think we need to learn to do this. I had the fortune/misfortune of learning to fall the hard way. Being young and riding shitlands.

[RAyers]

Speaking of vaulting, when I was a kid, we had to learn to do flying dismounts at all gaits. Does that get taught anymore? I still practice them. It at least begins to condition you to separation from your horse and being a bit out of control as well as to getting into a position after you are out of the saddle.

Reed

[JER]

Y
I was not suggesting that my fall, or other "slo mo" rotations, could be as dangerous as the high speed cross country falls (for one thing, I hit the ground long enough before my horse that I could have rolled out of the way...if I had had the mental clarity to do so -- another fall "rule" that caught me out -- everyone was yelling "move, move, move" and I was thinking "aren't you supposed to stay still in case you are injured?")...

simply that rotations CAN happen to the average rider, so this is not totally useless info.

Oh, I very much agree with you. :) I just wanted to point out that height can be a factor, as well as the different POI of a rotational over an obstacle of lower height.

Although, like LKF said, when you're galloping and a horse goes over, you don't have any time to react at all. When this has happened to me, I've been lucky enough to get ejected out the side door.

[breakthru]

Speaking of vaulting, when I was a kid, we had to learn to do flying dismounts at all gaits. Does that get taught anymore? I still practice them. It at least begins to condition you to separation from your horse and being a bit out of control as well as to getting into a position after you are out of the saddle.

Reed

many pony club examiners have stopped testing the emergency dismounts at anything higher than a walk- too much liability- broken ankles and such...

as someone who has had to emergency dismount a whole ton, I've always found the pony club version a bit unrealistic- if it really is an emergency, chances are you probably aren't going to be able to lean forward, fling a leg over neatly and kick off, right? All my emergency dismounts have been of the 'push away from the horse and roll" variety...

[mellsmom]

was cantering my draftie in the arena. He caught a toe... and tripped and continued going down....I remember thinking ok, let go... and GET OUTTA THE WAY. So I hit the ground crawling on my belly away from the horse. Luckily it was a nice slow canter... I ended up with a "rug" burn down my nose and on my elbows, but I was really lucky. About 3 weeks before my instructor had another stud who's horse was working long and low..the mare tripped, and flipped over on the rider who ended up with a broken nose and neck. Luckily the neck was minor and required only a few months in a brace.

[JennieRose]

I have tumbled off a number of horses, for a variety of reasons (all my fault!), and I have always, always, always felt thankful that I have years of gymnastics and ballet in my past. I think the ability to tuck and roll, roll on my shoulder (instead of landing on my head), or just LAND has saved me from injury a number of times. In addition, that knowledge has helped me recover from losing my balance a number of times, I think, and helped me stay on the horse.

I agree, we need to think about how to fall. Do they still do emergency dismounts at speed for Pony Club?

[Bobthehorse]

I think this is somewhat like muscle memory-. He's done it so often (not falling, but riding) that a lot of what he does is second nature. I think that is the logic behind teaching the emergency dismount.



Exactly. My coach pounds into us that so much is about instinct. When you get into trouble, you shift your shoulders back (or throw them back, depending on the situation ;)) and slip the reins some. That should be instinct at the top levels. Not kind of laying there on the neck going "wtf mate?". No, it probably wont stop the horse from rotating (well it may, depending on how tiny the fence, or lack thereof, is, and how slow you are going), but it may slow things down some so you can both have some extra time to think about hitting the ground, and slightly decrease impact. I have seen a horse catch their foreleg over a 3'3''ish fence, and the rider threw her weight back and slipped her reins, and the horse was able to pull the leg out in front of her, and while it was still ugly and she landed in a bit of a heap, it could have been much worse if the rider has just lay on her neck looking dumbfounded.

[2ndyrgal]

was rotational, as in I ROTATED!, we had a stumble, spook, buck, and I did a perfect somersault in mid air. I had time, according to my sister, to say, while still in the air, "damn, this is gonna hurt". Did too. We too, were taught to fall as one of the first things we learned. You do have to be aware of what position your body is in, in relation to the horse and/or the ground. When the horse falls too, it's a whole nuther ball game. Your focus has to shift to where you are and he is, if it doesn't, it doesn't matter how damn good you fall.

[RAyers]

many pony club examiners have stopped testing the emergency dismounts at anything higher than a walk- too much liability- broken ankles and such...

as someone who has had to emergency dismount a whole ton, I've always found the pony club version a bit unrealistic- if it really is an emergency, chances are you probably aren't going to be able to lean forward, fling a leg over neatly and kick off, right? All my emergency dismounts have been of the 'push away from the horse and roll" variety...

True that, however even the PC version goes farther to help develop SOME form of muscle memory when the rider is out of sync with a horse than not teaching anything.

I agree that reality is never the same as practice. All good plans go out the window the moment you first get hit in the face. But, at least having a plan is better than being Wiley E. Coyote looking at the camera just after he went past the edge of the cliff.

mellsmom, "Luckily it was a nice slow canter." Is there any other type of canter when it comes to drafties? ;)


Reed

[SevenDogs]

Speaking of vaulting, when I was a kid, we had to learn to do flying dismounts at all gaits. Does that get taught anymore? I still practice them. It at least begins to condition you to separation from your horse and being a bit out of control as well as to getting into a position after you are out of the saddle.

Reed

My trainer still teaches flying dismounts, but some of us who started riding as adults are not great at them. I ripped out my back trying it and we worked on positioning and pushing away instead. After that I also worked with a gymnastics coach learning safer ways to fall and improving balance.

Discussing falls and ways to try to make them safer should be a part of all training programs. Sometimes you have time to react and sometimes you don't (apart from the requisite "oh s#!t!"). If you put the tools in toolbox, you might be able to use them and you might not, but you should have them all there in case.

[oldenmare]

I grew up riding western - my worst fall was out cantering in a pasture with my green REINING horse - still not sure what happened but he went down in front, flipped in process - I kicked free and bailed to best of my ability (even us western folk knew to tuck and roll) - ended up with him on my left leg (that hip twisted and has never been quite right) and a fractured neck.

I was fortunate as hell to pretty much walk away from that one.

For that matter - all of my bad falls have been on the flat, never over fences (to date). And I started riding over fences in late teens / early 20s.

I TOTALLY see the value in this article and the need to teach riders how to fall. Burying the head in sand doesn't work so well for the ostrich, now does it???

(Now - remind me of this when someone is picking me up off ground after being dumped by my 3 yr old when we start her this fall.....) :sadsmile:

[oldenmare]

Also wanted to add - by learning to fall properly at early age -

I went down with a horse last summer - one of those helping a friend out with his newly purchased "childsafe" horse.... she was being a little balky...

Wench bucked, reared, plunged, spun, and pulled every trick in the book - when she found she couldn't dislodge me, she literally threw herself onto the ground - THANK GOD FOR MUSCLE MEMORY - because I executed an almost perfect tuck and roll - walked away with lots of bruises and fractured right wrist (minor) - and I haven't had a fall in years and years (btw - ground gets a lot harder once you pass 40..... ).

Again - the benefit in learning how to fall.

[breakthru]

Good point abouts about teaching something other than nothing, but as I mentioned before, most PC examiners I know are avoiding it entirely these days, for liability reasons.

How DO you teach someone to fall? As much as I'd like to think there's a reasonable way- I think you really just learn by experience, for better or for worse. Aside from that, I do think some people just have better falling instincts than others; like some people just naturally seem to have better instincts for riding than others. Unlike riding, where you can practice to get better, it's awfully hard to practice falling in a situation that's both safe and realistic.

[JennieRose]

How DO you teach someone to fall? .

To begin with it could be as simple as teaching someone to somersault on the ground (on an appropriate surface). And then do a "dive" type somersault. (where you sort-of dive forward into a somersault). It's fairly difficult to do if you're nervous/scared, but an excellent skill to have. Again, though, I don't know if this would/should happen in our lessons (although maybe it's something to do on rainy days when you can't ride?), but if someone in the North of England wants to practice with me--we can look silly together. :D

[workinggirl]

What is it, what does it symbolize?

[Altitude Rider]

Emergency Dismount 1 - 2 - 3!

This exercise was taught to me at summer camp and I think we did it at all gates (way before liability). It helped me a lot even though most falls don't really happen that way because it let me figure out a way to remove myself from the horse, or get an idea of what it feels like.

It's a good tool that may have helped me fall correctly as an adult as well as having taken some gymnastics and LOTS of falls skiing over the years.

And I really prefer the type of crash where you know things are going wrong and you can quickly release the horse and/or yourself...much better than *WHAM*, wtf just happened??

[zagafi]

Want to learn how to fall properly? Take some martial arts classes. When I started reriding a couple years ago I had a stupid fall, knew I was coming off, and did it under my terms and rolled on my shoulder. My instructor said it was the most graceful, athletic fall she's ever seen. Even though I was out of shape/practice, I still had muscle memory and knew how to fall. When you know how, time seems to slow down because you don't panic as much.

[DMK]

having just rec'd a fairly serious injury to my hand, i couldn't help but compare it to a fall from a horse. i've fallen off, got bucked off and my personal favorite is to go down with the ship. in each and every last one of them, they weren't a surprise and they took ... for... ever before impact. i swear i rewrote my will on the way down the last time a horse flipped over on me, i knew exactly where i was going to hit and what part of my body was going to do the hitting, that i was going to be pinned underneath the horse and against a fence rail (broke fencing with my thigh) and all i could was keep my head away from the fencepost.

this latest injury, which involved nearly cuttingoff my right thumb, was a complete surprise. just sat there stupidly trying to figure out what happened for a good few second. uh then i got myself medical attention asap.

but every fall i've ever had wasn't fast like that. if you have any sort of experience, you know trouble is coming soon enough to let instinct/training take over, you just have to have that training (provided to me by numerous childhood falls). then you just have to be a bit lucky to boot.

[Nihile]

How weird was it that I got both magazines on the same day? Same photo spread, similar article on rotational falls, different authors.

And,no, I did NOT receive a tin-foil hat in that mail delivery...;)

I talked to Gary from GRC photo and they did the photos and where approached by the two magazines for the images ^.^. I'm amazed that this series of pictures shows the moment by moment of this kind of fall.

[Peggy]

Flying dismount is extremely useful in musical tires:D. I learned it, along with getting on and off the off (right) side. Both exercises are useful, IMHO, in making some kind of moving dismount not as scary, even when it is unplanned.

I don't think that anyone else at my current barn learned it. The other people who rode as kids are 10-15 years younger than me; don't know if it's the age gap or different instruction or what. Haven't done it myself at more than a walk in some time, but even that elicits comment from bystanders. One of the arguments I've heard against teaching it (aside from the whole liability thing) is that if you teach it to people that they won't try to stay on in a situation which is bad, but should be ridden out.

[precious]

you are out of your minds. this is dispicable and the entire we love eventing as a sport is embarassing to you and yours. if this is sportsmanship and horsemanship you can kiss your sport good bye. wake up people.:eek:

[oldenmare]

Gee, Precious - guess we should kiss riding of all forms goodbye based on your highly indignant (and ignorant) opinion.

In case you missed it (duh) - a number here posted that they had falls not involving fences.

So, next - do we ban cars because there are auto accidents?
Do you ever fly on a plane - commercial or otherwise?
Ever walk down a set of stairs?

Go back to your ivory tower - those of us in the real world want to deal with real world situations - you don't like it - well, no one asked you to play in the sand box....

Now - if you wish to have a civilized discussion, utilizing facts, then please do so - nicely if you're familiar with the concept.

[DMK]

Gee, Precious - guess we should kiss riding of all forms goodbye based on your highly indignant (and ignorant) opinion.

In case you missed it (duh) - a number here posted that they had falls not involving fences.

So, next - do we ban cars because there are auto accidents?
Do you ever fly on a plane - commercial or otherwise?
Ever walk down a set of stairs?.

lead cut crystal vases now terrify me, i should have went to the barn that morning, it was far safer than my kitchen! but it's probably not worth debating, i'm sure this is just another version of toosickracistcurdog.

[Moderator 1]

There's no evidence of further alters at this time on this thread, so please ignore or discuss the opinions expressed as necessary to keep the thread going in a productive direction.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[WldGbl]

Does anyone else recall the article and talks that Dr. Thomas Bliss did on the benefits of learning to fall. If I'm not mistaken, he did a presentation at the USCTA Annual meeting.

[RAyers]

As far as I am familiar, it used to be that learning to fall used to be an integral part of any coherent riding program, regardless of discipline (1970s).

It is a physical impossibility to prevent any and all accidents or falls. Thus there will always be a need for the rider to learn how to fall off, just as what a previous poster mentioned, all martial (fighting) arts teach how to get hit and to hit the ground without harm.

[harveyhorses]

Back in the dark ages, when I was learning, there was a book on exersizes, like stand up in the stirrups, turn around in the saddle, touch the poll, touch your toes, lie back. We didn it on the lunge line. I think being a familiar as possible with the top of a horse can do no harm.
I thought I had a point when I started writing that. Or maybe I was impressed that I can remember that far back!

Back to work..

[Bobthehorse]

As far as I am familiar, it used to be that learning to fall used to be an integral part of any coherent riding program, regardless of discipline (1970s).

It is a physical impossibility to prevent any and all accidents or falls. Thus there will always be a need for the rider to learn how to fall off, just as what a previous poster mentioned, all martial (fighting) arts teach how to get hit and to hit the ground without harm.

Indeed. In high school I got taught how to get out from under a rapist. Now, it would be ideal to just wave my wand and make rape a non-existent problem. However, since this is reality and bad sh*t happens, Im cool with learning how to get out of a tight spot. Doesnt mean I still dont do whatever I can not to end up in such a situation, but I dont have a crystal ball.

[dogchushu]

As far as I am familiar, it used to be that learning to fall used to be an integral part of any coherent riding program, regardless of discipline (1970s).

It is a physical impossibility to prevent any and all accidents or falls. Thus there will always be a need for the rider to learn how to fall off, just as what a previous poster mentioned, all martial (fighting) arts teach how to get hit and to hit the ground without harm.

Thanks. It's not like we should focus on falling, but I do believe it's important to know what (and what NOT) to do when you do come off.

The article hit home for me because last summer a very experienced rider (did fox hunting, eventing, show jumping, hunters, even some cutting) on a scopey, sound, experienced horse had a horrific fall over a freaking 2'6" warm up hunters fence.

Had the rider did what was suggested in the article (sat up with the horse, slipped the reins, rolled away onto the shoulder), he would have walked away with some bruises and a lot of good-natured teasing! As it was, he jumped ahead, held onto the reins, and stayed where he fell. Probably his biggest flaw was hanging onto the reins. Somehow, the trajectory of the reins after being ripped from his hand resulted in them being flipped over his shoulders. He was dragged along bouncing between the horse's legs for what seemed like an eternity (and was likely only a few seconds) and brought out of the ring later on a back board.

He's okay now and the horse is just fine (albeit both required lengthy confidence rebuilding after that crash). But I don't want to ever witness something like that again.

I discussed the article with my trainer Monday (haven't done that with anything in PH in a long time). I learned some new stuff (slipping the reins and rolling onto your shoulder away from the horse) as well as got some of my previous instruction reinforced. For example, my trainer has repeatedly told me to let the horse save us when we pass the jump "event horizon" and I know it's going to be ugly. But I always try to fix it, often in mid air :lol: . Hopefully, the article will drill it in that I need to let the horse do her job.

[AM]

WldGbl,

I was at the USCTA meeting where Dr. Bliss hopped up in his suit and demonstrated a forward roll across the front of the room. I know it was here in Washington and I believe it was the Key Bridge Marriott. My father was taking pictures that year and didn't move quite fast enough to catch it on film. Dr. Bliss is/was an orthopedic surgeon as I recall. I do remember him saying that when his daughters started riding, he knew they would fall and wanted them to learn how. So he took them to a local gymnastics program where they learned to tumble and fall.

[springdaisy]

My first instructor, probably about four years ago, taught me and another girl emergency dismounts. We're talking w/t/c. I never practiced again until after I had a rotten fall off an evil little Arab. Could have been the roll off and walk away kind of thing, but I ended up with a fractured tailbone. Nothing serious, but I sure was mad at Arab. ;)

After that, I would roll off anything to practice. During the winter when the arena froze sometimes, I would go on my trampoline and jump as high as I could and then fall. Every different scenario you can think of, I "fell" on my trampoline. It actually helped! I've fallen off so many times I can't even count, but I've only had a couple when I couldn't think and just slammed the ground.

Once when the first TB I ever rode spooked into a galloping zigzag kinda pattern and I only zigged. ;) I flew pretty far, but somehow didn't get hurt at all, not even sore the next day. Once when I was riding in a creek and mount went down...fast. Happened the next day too, worse, but I was slightly better at having a horse fall on me that time. Pinned my leg against a rock, but luckily it was a smart little pony. Then there was the time another TB decided that the white poles would eat him...galloped off, spun, and as I was pushing myself up from his right shoulder and thought I was going to be ok..."WHERE'S THE SHOULDER?" he spun left and bucked again just for good measure. I went flying into a flip, and crashed into a fence post. Back first, upside down...ouch. I was prepared to tuck and roll...but then when I pushed myself up, I let my guard down and didn't expect anything else for some reason.

Those falls, I couldn't really do anything. Well, I probably could, but it wasn't slow motion...just SLAM.

Luckily for me, my worst fall wasn't too fast, and I had a little time to prepare. Riding my friend's Arab-nasty little thing-for the second time, bareback, I was cantering around the arena and all of a sudden she starts bucking HUGE. Not the little Arab "kick up my heels", her hind legs were going upupUP and popping. I somehow stayed on for two and managed to get a game plan, and then the third one threw me forward. Went over her shoulder completely head first-not what I was expecting. I had always heard not to stick out my arms-broke a wrist like that, not riding related-but decided my head/neck was more important. ;) Stuck out my arm to try and flip myself over in a ball and it worked pretty well.My collarbone/shoulder hurt, but just kind of in the back of my mind. We were walking back to the barn with my friend trying to hold me, pony, and call her mom at the same time-we were pretty much alone at the barn, and they lived 45 minutes away-when all of a sudden my collarbone felt like it was on fire. I blacked out and woke up laying on the ground halfway to the barn trying not to cry. Longest fourty five minutes of my life. Made it to my house without breaking down. My mom opened the door, I thanked my friend, and got into the shower. I started freaking out and hyperventilating. It was Labor Day, and I couldn't get to the doctor till the next day. Turns out my collarbone had cracked in half, one piece on top of the other pushing into my skin.

I now have an intact head and neck, and two matching collarbones, as I broke the other one when I was younger. Your "extra" ;) limbs are not worth sacrificing your head/neck for!

[ReSomething]

Want to learn how to fall properly? Take some martial arts classes. When I started reriding a couple years ago I had a stupid fall, knew I was coming off, and did it under my terms and rolled on my shoulder. My instructor said it was the most graceful, athletic fall she's ever seen. Even though I was out of shape/practice, I still had muscle memory and knew how to fall. When you know how, time seems to slow down because you don't panic as much.

Judo and jiu-jitsu, if you can find classes or a club in your area, are really darned good for balance, strength, any kind of fall you can imagine and strategical thinking at speed. All good qualities for riding.
I've also been complemented on how I handle my falls. Even though I'd rather not fall, they still happen.

ETA in a proper forward roll, the hands are extended and the elbows bend to cushion shock as you roll to the shoulder. You also choose where you will be going to some degree, over the left or right shoulder. You aren't really sacrificing the arms in favor of your head, because when you come up you may need your arms for continued fighting. It's all about going with the motion.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Falling is a part of riding....and learning to fall off in a manner that will not get you hurt is a skill. At least when I was first learning how to ride (late 70's)...it was something taught and practiced by my trainers. Before you engage in a sport....you should understand all the risks and do what you can to minimize them (proper instruction, mounts and learning skills). AND FOR WHAT ITS WORTH for those posters saying this is a negative thing on eventing....I WAS TAUGHT HOW TO FALL BY BOTH HUNTER/JUMPERS AND RODEO COWBOYS. I was riding for over 15 years before I started eventing....and had fallen off more times than I can remember in that time period...mostly thanks to a dirty stinking honey I used to ride who bucked me off on a daily basis until I got good enough to stay on...she was a show hunter not an eventer!

Some of my worst injuries have been from trying to stay on. Something that I've gotten better about over the years, and that I think comes with experience, is realizing when I'm at a lost cause point and start to look for the safe place to fall or prepping for the fall. It is rare that I come off so fast that I don't see it coming anymore...has only happened once in the last 15 years ....most of the time the falls seem to happen in slow motion.

If you think you will be avoiding all falls when riding horses.....well, you are in for some big time disappointment...it's far better to be prepared. And yes, if you do practice and don't fight the fall.....you do increase your changes of walking away with little damage other than to your ego! I liked the article in PH.

[PalominoMorgan]

I had a rotational fall at the canter in the indoor. Hit a rock or something. I am not the world's best rider, but am pretty good at falling and am fairly athletic. I made like superman and tried my hardest to fly off my mare as she rotated down. (I never put arms out when falling, but it just seemed like the right thing to do.) I handed on my belly and started scrambling as fast as I could running forward. As I did I looked over my shoulder and saw my mare finishing her flip. Scary for both of us.

I yelled like crazy for barn owner to come check us both out. I was fine. Mare was fine. Lunged her and then got back on and trotted around a couple times before hosing her off and giving her a nice liniment bath.

Guess I did the right thing by instinct. Lucky me.

[PalominoMorgan]

Judo and jiu-jitsu, if you can find classes or a club in your area, are really darned good for balance, strength, any kind of fall you can imagine and strategical thinking at speed. All good qualities for riding.
I've also been complemented on how I handle my falls. Even though I'd rather not fall, they still happen.

ETA in a proper forward roll, the hands are extended and the elbows bend to cushion shock as you roll to the shoulder. You also choose where you will be going to some degree, over the left or right shoulder. You aren't really sacrificing the arms in favor of your head, because when you come up you may need your arms for continued fighting. It's all about going with the motion.

Guess I can thank my dad for teaching me jiu jitsu as a kid and my martial arts I continued on my own as an adult. One of my most important falls though was walking down the back steps of the house carrying my daughter to daycare. One second I'm upright, the next split second I was half way to the ground. In that split second I was able to manipulate my fall and land on my left side with daughter clutched tight to my right side. Once I caught my breath I checked on my daughter, who was now lying on top of me giggling and saying "wheee". Obviously I saved her by being able to not crush her under me (cause I'm no light weight.) Still haven't figured out why I fell though. The medical testing continues to figure out why I fall without warning. *sigh*

[Blugal]

I thought the idea of the article was good.

However, I HATED the pictures. They were not illustrative.

PD was LUCKY to have walked away from that fall. The luck lay in where his horse fell, not really in how "prepared" PD was. The stats on rotationals are that about 1/3 result in major injury or fatality. I would have been much happier with the article if it had addressed the issue of rotationals, rather than basically saying "PD is prepared for this fall, that's why he didn't get hurt."

I wish they'd used pictures of a more "normal" fall. And I wish their picture of a "good XC position" was actually at an angle that you could properly assess what the article was pointing out.

[Old War Horse]

I don't think that anyone mentioned that PD broke 4 ribs - and he had other horses to ride that weekend. He was probably a "hurtin' cowboy" by Sunday.
Someone who saw the photos on GRCPhoto's website after the event, said, any other rider whose horse was putting the brakes on like that would have had a stop; not PD.

[JER]

I don't think that anyone mentioned that PD broke 4 ribs - and he had other horses to ride that weekend. He was probably a "hurtin' cowboy" by Sunday.

Seriously? If this is true, maybe it's time to admit the one-fall rule, as currently implemented, is a joke and a sham.

Someone who saw the photos on GRCPhoto's website after the event, said, any other rider whose horse was putting the brakes on like that would have had a stop; not PD.

And a stop would have been a better outcome.

[RegentLion]

I think that it is important for riders of all levels and all disciplines to understand what a rotational fall is, how it can occur, and what they can do to minimize risks...

I'm a competent rider at lower levels. I did my C-3 in Pony Club. I've evented through Novice level (I'm a wuss, what can I say!) but until I read this BB, I NEVER heard mention rotational falls. I saw one at Rolex and that was it.

This spring, I had what was almost a rotational fall. I was able to think through the process "Oh shit here it comes, get away from him..." but what my body did was sit back, slip the reins and put my leg on as best I could.

My (green) horse somehow managed to get himself picked up, even though he had a pole between his legs--YES we were jumping a 2'9" stadium fence, in a lesson. We were both OK and went on to finish our lesson.

I think that it is important that riders know what to do. Clearly my body did the right thing. I attribute part of that to the fact that I had ONE lesson at Pony Club festival with a rider who taught us how to slip our reins and sit back over a drop fence. Somehow it worked for me.

If we'd actually fallen.... I don't know what would have happened--I'd have tried to get away but I'm sure that once his body mass was falling at me, things would have happened too quickly. I have never learned how to fall--I've learned to do an emergency dismount, but never has that been practical for me in an actual FALLING situation.


And here is a picture of my near miss....
Fall (http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs024.snc1/4267_574772798947_40600898_33934353_1791775_n.jpg)

And to show he actually CAN get over a fence now and then...(He's a reformed Western Pleasure horse)
Jump (http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs024.snc1/4267_574772808927_40600898_33934354_7600003_n.jpg)

[JennieRose]

Seriously cute horse, Regent Lion. Seriously cute! I agree with developing the "instincts". I think the ability to sit back instead of lean forward and curl is an important one. I think it's telling that, for me, the time I was injured the worst was when I stayed on a nasty stop and managed to sprain both of my shoulders and both of my thumbs. Yeah, dismounting after that was loads of fun.

The times I've fallen, I've mostly fallen "well" and managed to pop up quickly and with a minimum of injury. Each time, I've had time to roll or at least control my fall a bit.

[RegentLion]

Seriously cute horse, Regent Lion. Seriously cute! I agree with developing the "instincts". I think the ability to sit back instead of lean forward and curl is an important one. I think it's telling that, for me, the time I was injured the worst was when I stayed on a nasty stop and managed to sprain both of my shoulders and both of my thumbs. Yeah, dismounting after that was loads of fun.

The times I've fallen, I've mostly fallen "well" and managed to pop up quickly and with a minimum of injury. Each time, I've had time to roll or at least control my fall a bit.

Thanks! :D We are getting there. I'm so glad that the whole trip-flail-fail incident didn't ruin his confidence--or mine!

[laves81]

Arm and clavicle fractures are merely a PITA and not life-threatening. Same goes for your legs -- better to let them hit first than to crack your pelvis, which can be life-threatening.


I just wanted to correct you, because I think it's important to note that a femur fracture (thigh bone) can be life threatening. Blood loss can be tremendous and quick, particularly if the femoral artery is severed.

[RealityCheck]

Just wanted to add something slightly related- when learning about human physiology in a biology class I had, we watched some kind of discovery channel video about a man who was picked up by a tornado and dropped 70 feet. Amazingly, he stood up and walked away with minor bruises, because he was knocked unconscious and therefore his muscles were completely relaxed when he landed, absorbing the impact and preserving his skeletal system from fractures. Of course, in a fall the LAST thing anybody is is relaxed, but it goes along with the tuck and roll idea of not bracing/tensing up.

[JER]

I just wanted to correct you, because I think it's important to note that a femur fracture (thigh bone) can be life threatening. Blood loss can be tremendous and quick, particularly if the femoral artery is severed.

The internal blood loss associated with a femur fracture with arterial compromise is 1-2 litres or 20%-40% of total blood volume. At the upper end of that, the patient would be in decompensated hypovolemic shock.

If EMS in on-site and you have reasonable access to ALS and a decent hospital, it is highly unlikely that you'd bleed out from a femur fracture. (I have heard of this happening in motorcycle accidents but treatment was delayed. The general rule in the EMT world is you can't bleed out from a femur fracture. Bilateral femur fractures are a different story.)

But there's that old adage about life over limb. Literally, in this case.

It takes a lot of force to fracture your femur. That same force applied directly to your head, neck or chest? You're better off taking it on the leg.

[saje]

Just wanted to add something slightly related- when learning about human physiology in a biology class I had, we watched some kind of discovery channel video about a man who was picked up by a tornado and dropped 70 feet. Amazingly, he stood up and walked away with minor bruises, because he was knocked unconscious and therefore his muscles were completely relaxed when he landed, absorbing the impact and preserving his skeletal system from fractures. Of course, in a fall the LAST thing anybody is is relaxed, but it goes along with the tuck and roll idea of not bracing/tensing up.

This is also why drunk drivers often survive, even walk away from, horrible collisions that kill other drivers/passengers. They're so loaded that they're essentially ragdolls.

This is not a recommendation to go XC after downing a bottle of scotch though! :winkgrin:

It does make me wonder though if those that are more blase` about coming off get hurt less? Do professionals who ride a lot (and so up their chances for falls) get injured less per fall than the less frequent rider/faller? I've seen some horrific falls that the rider seemed to barely feel, and I've seen a beginner rider come off essentially at a standstill from a 15hh horse and shatter her arm/elbow to the point of needing major reconstructive surgery.

Random musings on a rainy Sunday morning...

[KayBee]

It does make me wonder though if those that are more blase` about coming off get hurt less? Do professionals who ride a lot (and so up their chances for falls) get injured less per fall than the less frequent rider/faller? I've seen some horrific falls that the rider seemed to barely feel, and I've seen a beginner rider come off essentially at a standstill from a 15hh horse and shatter her arm/elbow to the point of needing major reconstructive surgery.

I was never taught to fall - not during my (brief) riding career as a kid or since, as an adult "re-"rider. I've attributed my falling ability (8 lifetime; 7 since in the past 3 years) to the fact that I learned to snowboard a few years before taking up riding. Let me just say that the (or perhaps, my ;) ) learning curve for snowboarding involved a LOT of falling. Eventually it became an "oh, here we go again" thing that I just, well, relaxed into.

[Jumperprincess]

What amazes me the most about this eventing "how to fall" crap is what the heck about the poor horse. Good Lord people-give it up!! Thank God my A/O hunter will never experience me learning HOW TO FALL at his expense. I found the Practical Horseman article disgusting!!

[JennieRose]

Thank God my A/O hunter will never experience me learning HOW TO FALL at his expense. I found the Practical Horseman article disgusting!!
Jumperprincess, I would never make a hunter rider, but I think that hunters also have rotational falls...and just falls in general, yes? I don't think eventers would ever put themselves before the welfare of the horse, and, at least in my experience, when I've fallen clear, I've mostly gotten up and looked into the face of a puzzled horse but certainly not an injured one. Except, of course, for the lovely gelding I used to ride who I'm sure thought he would die with embarrassment to have me tumble off him while mounting! Poor thing. He was humiliated!

But, just to repeat, this, as many things in eventing, is about keeping the horse and rider as safe and healthy as possible, not about putting the rider first.

[RegentLion]

What amazes me the most about this eventing "how to fall" crap is what the heck about the poor horse. Good Lord people-give it up!! Thank God my A/O hunter will never experience me learning HOW TO FALL at his expense. I found the Practical Horseman article disgusting!!

Jumperprincess...

Go back to my post one page ago and check out the photo I posted of my own near miss. It was over a "normal" fence, one that comes down. I have had a fall with a different horse over another obstacle that fell down--he tripped right before a very large vertical and jumped it anyway and it didn't work out so well.

Also read some other posts on this thread about people falling with horses on flat ground (horse overreaches and steps on a bellboot for example).

Was I concerned about the horses in BOTH these incidents? YES. The time I actually fell, I got up much too quickly and ended up blacking out--I got up because I wanted to check on my boy.

We definitely care about our horses, but in the incident that a fall occurs, we can't help the horse, we can only help ourselves by falling as best we can and getting out of the way should the horse fall on top of us. I believe this thread is about risk management for the rider---there have been many threads about risk management for the horses--and trust me, NO ONE is thrilled about a horse falling or hurting itself.

[LisaB]

If you actually read a bit of what we're talking about princess, you'll realize that we are saying that learning how to fall can save both the horse and rider. A lot of times, a fall of horse is because you get in a bad situation and the rider, not knowing how to get out of the way, makes it worse. By learning how to fall, you learn about getting out of the horse's way and not making the situation worse.
Jesus, another troll ... LOVE THIS BOARD :cry:

[Jumperprincess]

I find it so interesting you all "are so concerned about the welfare of the horse", you are jumping over solid obstacles, no break-away cups. It is just not right "practicing to fall" because thats all you are doing, gee, wonder how many horses/people this article will kill

[asterix]

I don't know, jumperprincess, I've been eventing for a number of years on 5 different horses.

Only rotational fall I ever had was jumping a simple vertical in the ring. Horse was NOT hurt but we both could have been.

Probably jumped several thousand xc fences by now, without incident.

I understand you find this upsetting but it might be useful to learn more about the sport before coming on and saying extreme things.

[breakthru]

also, though I understand it's better not to feed the trolls, I just can't help it.

Jumperprincess- no one is advocating flipping horses over fences to practice falling. We're discussing how the rider can best prepare themselves for the possibility of this happening.

And yes, rotational falls can happen anytime. Just a couple days ago I was teaching a jumping lesson, and my student jumped a beautiful stadium fence in perfect form, the horse took a beautiful recovery stride, and then for no apparent reason, tripped over his own front legs and nearly flipped all the way over. Horse and rider are fine, but it just goes to show, you never know.

[LisaB]

Did you guys catch that little tv show, equestriannation? I have a wishlist setting for anything equestrian. Anyway, it showed thrills and spills of jumping. Looked like the same issues happen in gp jumping too. Horses get caught up in rails and such. I have no idea what prompted them to have an episode this ... Anyway, just interesting to see nasty falls in the arena and out side by side.

[hollyhorse2000]

I think an article about how to fall makes sense. (Not sure why such an article would be disgusting; falls are part of riding). But I didn't find the photos particularly illuminating. And the article really only looked at one type of fall. Other falls are more common, including the flying dart over the head of the stopped horse and the slipping off to one side -- both with horse remaining upright. I'd have prefered to see a diagram showing EXACTLY what they were suggesting. Maybe I'm just slow that way and need pictures . . . But the topic was a good one, I thought.

BTW, I do essentially an emergency dismount every time I get off my horse. It's sort of the only way I know how to get off. And I'm 50 and horsie is 16.2, so I get high up in the air when I kick off and it's fun!! (never done it moving, although I've contemplated it a few times).

[Meredith Clark]

I find it so interesting you all "are so concerned about the welfare of the horse", you are jumping over solid obstacles, no break-away cups. It is just not right "practicing to fall" because thats all you are doing, gee, wonder how many horses/people this article will kill

I've had a couple of rotational falls in my life.. they all involved me falling down the steps or tripping over my own feet while walking!

The closest i've come to a horseback riding rotational fall was when I rode western pleasure. My horse tripped on a ground pole and flipped over himself. Thankfully i was tossed to the side and he didn't land on me. We were both fine.

[Jumperprincess]

I appreciate all of your thoughts but didn't see any regarding " break-away cups"-have fun--and good luck to all of you.

[LKF]

What amazes me the most about this eventing "how to fall" crap is what the heck about the poor horse. Good Lord people-give it up!! Thank God my A/O hunter will never experience me learning HOW TO FALL at his expense. I found the Practical Horseman article disgusting!!

It's ironic that you're a H/J. It was a H/J who taught me how to do 'flying dismounts' when I was a kid. His name was Rodney Jenkins.

You better get over your disgust simply because one day 'you' will fall. It may not be a rotational fall, but it will be a fall.

[Jumperprincess]

I have fallen, I don't think there are many people who have not if you have ridden for any length of time, my feeling is I'll be damned that I would PRACTICE to do that with a horse- thats all. Still-no-one has adressed "break-away cups"-interesting thats all no need to be nasty

[JennieRose]

I have fallen, I don't think there are many people who have not if you have ridden for any length of time, my feeling is I'll be damned that I would PRACTICE to do that with a horse- thats all. Still-no-one has adressed "break-away cups"-interesting thats all no need to be nasty

Jumperprincess, do you mean frangible pins? That cause a jump to collapse and may help prevent rotational falls? Or the new safety cups for show jumping? There are TONS of threads on both of those subjects all over the BB. Also, do you think we'd purposely MAKE the horse fall in order to practice? What we're really talking about is an emergency/flying dismount, perhaps not so different to what happens quite a bit in vaulting. And, I've got to admit, as intimidating as some XC jumps are, my personal and totally irrational fear has to do with show jumping and getting poles caught between my horse's legs. So, we all worry about something!

Also, of course, as eventers, I'm sure someone will set up a mat in their barn aisle and practice somersaults by themselves on rainy days!

[JSwan]

I find it so interesting you all "are so concerned about the welfare of the horse", you are jumping over solid obstacles, no break-away cups. It is just not right "practicing to fall" because thats all you are doing, gee, wonder how many horses/people this article will kill

Another troll.

How..... ordinary.

:rolleyes:

[sisu27]

What amazes me the most about this eventing "how to fall" crap is what the heck about the poor horse. Good Lord people-give it up!! Thank God my A/O hunter will never experience me learning HOW TO FALL at his expense. I found the Practical Horseman article disgusting!!

Wow. So, jumper riders don't fall off?? I can think of a few right now....Ian Millar, Nick Skelton, John Whitaker, Albert Zoer....pretty good riders that lot no? All of them have had really severe falls that could have been career ending or worse.

Point is, we all fall off. Why not be prepared? I learned the emergency dismount as a child long before I got into eventing. Doesn't mean it will save my a$$ in every circumstance but if it just might....well I am ok with that.

I fail to understand how this is at the horses expense??? I would rather do my horse a favour and be able to have the presence of mind to get the hell out of his way. Gives him a better chance too.