Totilas and strong dam lines.

[stolensilver]

Totilas is the new dressage wonder horse and thankfully for breeders still a stallion. Do you remember a few weeks ago there was a thread on here about stallions with a strong dam line and we discovered there aren't many? Well Totilas definitely belongs in the elite group of having an outstanding dam line.

Even with just the information given on the internet pedigree websites you can find that his tail female dam line has been producing international and olympic level showjumpers and dressage horses for generation after generation. Its amazing.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10454585

The mare Viola B appears twice in the pedigree of olympic jumper Okidoki.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=okidoki

Viola B's stallion son Topaz produced at least 4 international showjumpers including Little Big Man and the wonderful Mondriaan, 3 times winner of the Hickstead Derby and described by his rider as the most honest horse ever to look through a bridle.

Her daughter's stallion son Jodocus is the sire of Okidoki (mentioned earlier). Some clever person has bred this foal this year, going back to Viola B top and bottom.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jo-jo-minka

Another branch of the female family has produced stallion Iowa, international jumper and sire of at least one (young) GP jumper.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=187105

Another Viola B daughter produced a stallion son by Amor called Vindicator. He sired at least 2 international dressage horses and 2 showjumpers.

And it goes on, and on, and on. Totilas' close up dam line only seems to consist of mares who had one foal who had one foal, but what a foal!

I wonder when Totilas is going to be available at stud?

[stolensilver]

http://209.85.227.132/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http://www.paardenfokken.nl/nieuws/verdieping/060815_okidoki.php&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&usg=ALkJrhh3e-JvAkMrdx2O7IlbXo8PenA0_w

[Waterwitch]

Thanks for sharing stolensilver - very interesting :yes:

[vineyridge]

If you look at the offspring of Viola B, in every case that is listed on Sport Horse Breed database, she was bred to either a TB or a Trak. I assume that's because she herself, from the photo, was a tank and not very attractive.

Marco Polo had a TB sire himself.

Viola B had no Blood close up. Well, she did have an AA fairly close in Farn's dam.

Totilas is half Trakehner, so one assumes that the refining influence was an important consideration in the breeding.

[Cartier]

Just saw the YouTube video of Moorlands Totilas at Hickstead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMHt1dUzQg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fecogold%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded (a bit of advice, turn the sound way down :yes:)

They say this the highest score ever given, “Edward Gal & Moorlands Totilas set a world record score of 89.40 in the Grand Prix Freestyle at Dressage Masters CDI 5* at Hickstead.”

Does anyone know anything about Totilas’ semen quality and who offers it? Is he available here in the US? Has anyone used him yet or seen any of his foals.

We noticed that his damsire –Glendale- is the stallion that stood for years at Iron Spring Farm. We saw Glendale at ISF back in 2000 or 2001. Kind of nice to see his name pop up in such a wonderful context after all these years.

[stolensilver]

Cartier Totilas has not been put forward for grading approval and is unlikely to stand at stud until after the next Olympics (if we're lucky!) However he does have 3 full baby brothers on the ground so maybe one of those will be available?

To be honest although Gribaldi is a fine sire I really would put a lot of the credit for Totilas' athleticism with his dam line. It is one of the strongest I've ever seen.

[Cartier]

Thanks…

It is understandable that they wish to focus on his career. I guess breeders will just have to wait. IF what you say is true, it will be about 2013 before we start to get a glimpse of what his potential is as a sire. Rats. :(

As for full siblings, thanks for the info, but in general we really have very little interest in them. For every one that is even remotely the equal of “The Great One” I could probably name hundreds (or thousands) who are not.

[ise@ssl]

Just a note on refinement. On the dam side is Pericles - a FULL TB. He was a Preferent Stallion in Holland who produced successful offspring for dressage and jumping. His sire lines go back to War Relic

[Oakstable]

What is being said in the Dutch equine press about him?

[Cartier]

Cartier Totilas has not been put forward for grading approval and is unlikely to stand at stud until after the next Olympics (if we're lucky!)

Oh wait… I was thinking World Equestrian Games (2010), but you are saying the Olympics... in 2012… eek. :eek: That pushes things out to 2015 until we can see his foals even starting to mature. :(

Just wondering, what is your source on your info?

[stolensilver]

Another bulletin board via someone who knows the owners.

[STABLESWOT]

Does anyone know why they gelded Okidoki? He has some pure strains in his pedigree that on paper and from the perspective of genetics theoretically he should be prepotent for several useful traits. When I saw Okidoki initially with his unbelievable shoulder range of motion I was amazed.

Lots of horses in that line have great shoulder freedom along with an equally strong hindquarter. Some horses have great anterior physical development and some have great hindquarter dev'mt but these traits are usually "either or". This bloodline seems to have equal power in the front and back, amazing power. Also these horses all have greater than average lightness (they hardly touch the ground while moving-they float). Since their shoulders have such a strong slope giving them short backs they are very handy on turns as well I think.

It would be very useful if someone tested the muscle fibers and did some mitochondrial gene mapping on all the showjumpers from this line while they are in work/competing. They have quicker than usual reflexes and as everyone knows the mitoc dna would only be about the mare influences.

[kkj]

Looks like the KWPN just approved him on his performance record. I don't know why they would bother with that if they are not going to start standing him. Does anyone know? Hopefully he will not be another Lingh or Florencio and will actually produce well.

[Cartier]

Hopefully he will not be another Lingh or Florencio and will actually produce well.

Not sure about Lingh, but Florencio has some nice kids around here and there. I’d imagine that his EVA status has limited the number of mares breeders will send to him and it’s still pretty early in his career to say for sure where he fits in the grand scheme of things. I think it’d be hard for any stallion to sustain the initial buzz he had. Sort of like Hotline, there really was no where to go but down.

Not that Totilas is a new stallion, but we've seen the cycle of the new hot stallion every year, for years, and yet, we all go crazy once again. Seriously, how many of us would give our left lung to get a breeding to Totilas? We would. We'd also like to use Gribaldi.

[YankeeLawyer]

Looks like the KWPN just approved him on his performance record. I don't know why they would bother with that if they are not going to start standing him. Does anyone know? Hopefully he will not be another Lingh or Florencio and will actually produce well.

Wow, that is quite a statement re Lingh and Florencio. Have you ever even seen one in person? I have a Florencio x Jazz in my barn that is outstanding in any company. Her breeder has another Florencio that arguably is better than mine. Lingh's offspring are not yet old enough to have reached upper levels (ditto Florencio, for that matter). Coincidentally, I had planned to breed my Florencio to Gribaldi before Totilas emerged as a super star.

And regarding the KWPN approval - did Totilas' owners actually apply for his approval or did the KWPN unilaterally award this status in recognition of his strong performances (thereby "claiming" him as theirs).

[Indy-lou]

Nothing succeeds like success, as the saying goes.
I've seen some video of Totilas, and from that small view, I can understand the hype; a great combination of accuracy with a modern type and flair. Rideability. The horse appears generous and well-behaved.
Mare lines. Always important. I can't think of a single super star horse that came from a "nowhere" dam line; sure,there are probably some, but not the norm. In my opinion, that is most likely the place where the generosity comes from. Sometimes from the stallion, but more often from the mare line. When you see a lot of competitors in the mare line, you have to think it's a strong influence.
I was pleased to see that his dam's sire was Glendale (Nimmerdor), the stallion that stood at Iron Spring Farms. They always said Glendale had a great temperament and was a barn favorite.
Perhaps Totilas is a fine example of a "jumping " pedigree thoughtfully interwoven into a strong dam line. A sprinkle of Trakhener on the top. Athleticism and refinement.
Gribaldi has been heavily used in the KWPN. I don't know the stats, but he has a lot of offspring. Odds are good that some of them will/have risen to the top of sport, from sheer numbers.
I noticed how refined in bone and type Totilas seems to be, though I have only seen him in competition video, never a conformation shot, or in person. Will he be the poster boy for the modern dressage horse?
I would love to see a conformation photo of Totilas for the sake of discussion!
Even though we breeders love to isolate the pedigree of the horse for dissection, it is clear that this horse has had the advantage of super training and now has a super rider. Congratulations to the whole team!

[ponygirl]

What will be interesting is to see how his 3 full brothers mature. I'd also be interested in seeing, if they breed his full sister, who they would put her too being that they are only 26% blood.

[kkj]

Yankee Lawyer, Yes I have seen some in person. I am not saying that all Lingh or Florencio offspring are shabby or that there are none that I would like to own. I am merely saying that they are both incredible horses that performed so well and had very dissapointing foal reports. I sort of think the KWPN knows what they are doing so I do put some weight in those foal reports. I don't think it has anything to do with EVA status. Florencio for sure got paired up with the best quality mares right from the get go and still had a mediocre foal report. As opposed to someone like Vivaldi whose foal report is outstanding (but apparently his imported semen is terrible)

I love Totilas and have since I first saw him at Prix St. George. I hope he does have awesome foals. And I would breed to him. I would just probably wait until his foal report came out, but then again maybe I wouldn't be able to wait that long and would just take the gamble...because after all it is always a gamble... and big and black is almost always saleable..

[kkj]

I noticed how refined in bone and type Totilas seems to be, though I have only seen him in competition video, never a conformation shot, or in person. Will he be the poster boy for the modern dressage horse?
I would love to see a conformation photo of Totilas for the sake of discussion!


see Edward Gals site: http://www.edwardgal.nl/?p=51&id=14&l=EN for photos of Totilas. I don't think he is small boned and compared to the Krack Cs and Jazz's I think he has plenty of bone and substance and his feet look fine (sometimes a problem with Gribaldi offspring) He is a very tall horse at 1.75 cms.

[Indy-lou]

Thanks for the link. Edward's had good luck/success with Gribaldi and his offspring for sure!

[Tomi]

The best conformation photo of Totilas is #207

http://database.arnd.nl/search/search.php?beeldnummer=&meerderepersonen=&paard=totilas&nationaliteit=&archiefkenmerk=&stamboek=&bijzonderheid=&onderwerp=&locatie=&land=&jaar=&fotograaf=&paardkleur=&iptc_keywords=&verticaal=&voorkeur=&m=20&s=200&last=no

[ancora]

A photo series of Edward Gal and Moorlands Totilas from the Grand Prix Special at the European Championships 2009 at Windsor can be seen here:

http://www.hippodot.com/em2009/dressur/gps_edward/index.html

Regards,
Ancora

[bloomingtonfarm]

Will he be the poster boy for the modern dressage horse?

Well Indy-lou you got it all right. Look what I have just read in the IDS magazine:


In 2007 the theme of the KWPN executive meeting was Horse 2020 and the question was 'What requirements must the horse of 2020 meet?'' According to FEI judge Wim Ernes, member of the Stallion Selection Committee for dressage, the modern dressage horse should have five good gaits: walk, trot, canter, passage and piaffe. In addition, the dressage horse of the future should demontrate the ability to go from maxmum effort to maximum relaxation in his performance.

According to Ernes this new standard has already become a reality. There are three new top horse in the world that meet all these requirements:
Totilas, Ravel and Parzival.Of course , it's great that the're all KWPN horses.

Therefore they concluded that the goals KWPN breeders set for 2020 have been achiveved in 2009. This signals a new era for dressage that began this year.

[Indy-lou]

Thanks for the nod Bloomington. Here's the thing though. Totilas, Ravel and perhaps Parzival are not likely to be keuring winners in terms of type. At least Totilas and Ravel are more compact and shorter in the leg than would be rewarded in a keuring, to my eye. I could be wrong (often am) in my assessment, but that is my impression. In movement, they would all certainly score well, but not so much in terms of the type the KWPN is promoting judging by the keuring winners, where a longer -lined horse is rewarded over the more compact types. I am pasting in a quote from Scot Tolman of Shooting Star Farms, taken from his web site journal where he discusses this bit of "disconnect" from a breeder's perspective. Just posting and hoping for a chewy bit of discussion on type and performance. Here's the copy/paste:

....."-Totilas scores a +90%. Holy shit. I’ve not seen this horse in person, only in photos and on youtube.com. What an incredible athlete. Most interesting to me is his breeding and type in terms of what the KWPN is currently promoting. He is Gribaldi x Glendale x Akteur. It would be difficult to find a more “all-rounder” pedigree than this. Gribaldi is one of the leading producers of FEI dressage horses in any studbook; Glendale showed in dressage, but he’s completely bred to be a jumper (Nimmerdor x Marco Polo); Akteur, himself a jumper and one of the best Amor sons, is seen as the damsire of the very successful and popular grand prix jumper, Judgement-ISF, and the very successful and popular, international grand prix dressage horse, Aktion. In type, Totilas is square, short in the front leg, long in the hindleg, heavy in the neck, and, generally, “off-type”. Do we think that our organization needs to, perhaps, weight type less in the keuring process? Just a thought."........

What do you other breeders think about this? I am sure you've all had the experience of looking at a stallion who has that certain WOW factor in movement, but looking at him from an "ideal" conformation template, sometimes they just don't fit the registry standard, and not yours either. Of course, a great performance horse is more than just a great mover. Great horses have great, trainable minds and work ethics. Training opportunities and riders make the difference, and soundness to the top levels of sport is required or we'd never even hear about some horses. I already know that there isn't one formula to success, but do you think that the current trend for type is going in the right direction?

[siegi b.]

In my opinion, the "current trend for type" within the KWPN doesn't exclude horses that may have shorter front legs or shorter necks, etc. Those things are duly noted on the linear score sheet but tend to not make a big difference unless they're glaring variations. And to me Totilas doesn't have very short front legs, nor are his hindlegs extra long, and I also would not call him short in the back or square. When horses are evaluated by the KWPN judges, the whole picture is taken into consideration and that includes type, conformation, temperament, and movement. So while the current trend may call for a "longer" front leg and a modern type, variations from that trend are not "punished" very much as long as they are in moderation.

Just my opinion...

[Oakstable]

I find the stallion's pedigree and conformation to be fascinating.

Has it been dissected in Holland and can anyone translate from the Dutch?

[Indy-lou]

I am continuously trying to sharpen my "eye" for the aspects of conformation that lead to good movement. The individuals who are and have been at the top of dressage competition vary in the ways they are put together, but I'd be hard pressed to put my finger on it, though I keep trying! What about the conformation of Lingh, Painted Black, Totilas, Ravel, for example, that sets them apart? And isn't it interesting that the first three would not have been approved as stallions except for having been top competitors? (I'm not certain about Ravel's history as a stallion). These guys are exceptions to the "ideal" standard, and there they are, at the top of sport. I find it fascinating.

[Oakstable]

Well, Steffen STRESSED suppleness repeatedly at the Dutch meeting in Del Mar.

You wouldn't think a square horse would be all that supple.

Maybe it comes down to what's below the ears.

[YankeeLawyer]

Well Indy-lou you got it all right. Look what I have just read in the IDS magazine:


In 2007 the theme of the KWPN executive meeting was Horse 2020 and the question was 'What requirements must the horse of 2020 meet?'' According to FEI judge Wim Ernes, member of the Stallion Selection Committee for dressage, the modern dressage horse should have five good gaits: walk, trot, canter, passage and piaffe. In addition, the dressage horse of the future should demontrate the ability to go from maxmum effort to maximum relaxation in his performance.

According to Ernes this new standard has already become a reality. There are three new top horse in the world that meet all these requirements:
Totilas, Ravel and Parzival.Of course , it's great that the're all KWPN horses.

Therefore they concluded that the goals KWPN breeders set for 2020 have been achiveved in 2009. This signals a new era for dressage that began this year.

I am sorry, is that meant to be a satire or do those people really speak like that?

[siegi b.]

Yankeelawyer - if you leave out the last two sentences of that IDS excerpt and then chalk the rest up to poor translation, I"m pretty sure that most of it was discussed. Just because three horses meet the envisioned standard for the horse of 2020 doesn't mean that said standard has been achieved. It does mean that the breeders are on their way to producing the new dressage horse type that has five good gaits!! At least in Holland they think they are...:) Please also note that nobody talked about conformation.... :) But then they really only quoted one guy - Wim Ernes - and his perception of the whole issue.

[Royal Monaco]

I don't know if this video has been posted here yet, but it is always nice to watch :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6HB3lvuoa8

[Bravestrom]

see Edward Gals site: http://www.edwardgal.nl/?p=51&id=14&l=EN for photos of Totilas. I don't think he is small boned and compared to the Krack Cs and Jazz's I think he has plenty of bone and substance and his feet look fine (sometimes a problem with Gribaldi offspring) He is a very tall horse at 1.75 cms.

I think that is 17.2hh - he really doesn't look that big - I have a 17.2hh horse - unless I converted wrong? Don't get me wrong - he is beautiful and I love the shoulder action

[bloomingtonfarm]

I think that is 17.2hh - he really doesn't look that big - I have a 17.2hh horse - unless I converted wrong? Don't get me wrong - he is beautiful and I love the shoulder action

More precisely 175cm is almost 17.1 h. (17.1 h= 175.26cm)

[siegi b.]

Edward Gal can make any horse look short..... Talk about a long-legged rider!!:)

[Oakstable]

Is video available of Totilas as a youngster? Would love to see his natural movement before he went under saddle.

[Donna Belcher]

The best conformation photo of Totilas is #207

http://database.arnd.nl/search/search.php?beeldnummer=&meerderepersonen=&paard=totilas&nationaliteit=&archiefkenmerk=&stamboek=&bijzonderheid=&onderwerp=&locatie=&land=&jaar=&fotograaf=&paardkleur=&iptc_keywords=&verticaal=&voorkeur=&m=20&s=200&last=no


I am sure everyone figured this out already ... the really nice conformation shot is 286.

What a stunning horse!