Ehrentusch and Master 850

[jdeboer01]

Spinning off of the thread on the "World's top rated Dressage Stallions", both Ehrentusch and Master 850 are high up on the list. I'm wondering why is it we seem to hear so little about these two stallions and/or their sons here in the U.S.? We certainly hear about the success of the "D", "R", "S", and "F" lines, along with, of course, certain stallions with the KWPN. Am I missing something, or are these two stallions and/or their sons completely underutilized here in the States? Someone enlighten me! :)

[stolensilver]

I don't know a lot about Ehrentusch but Master stands in the UK. He is well respected but I don't think he gets loads of breedings. The younsters I've seen by him have all been very correct with fantastic hind limb mechanics for collection.

[STF]

I have a very detailed write up on Master and what the Swedish inspectors thought of him and then of his babies. The postive and negative opinions. Let me scan it and I will post it for you.
I think Bo Crabo gave it to me many yrs ago when he got the info from Flyinge, so if I cant find it, Im sure he has a copy.

[caddym]

I'm a rider not a breeder, I have an 11 y.o. gelding by master who I imported as a 3 y.o. He is a fantastic horse. Very apealing expression. 3 gaits that are all correct and flashy. Lovely manners and he's been a super baby sitter for my younger mare. I've earned both my bronze and silver medal on him and hope to get my gold on him as well.

I love Tip Top and Max.

I am very surprised how few Master's there are in the US. I'm a member of SWANA, so I'm always on the lookout I'm interested to read the report noted above.

[Tiki]

Ehrentusch is gorgeous!!! He is now deceased. He is an old-style stallion, but he is amazing. He apparently needs a mare with lots of blood to make a more modern type, but he is incredible - as are some of his sons. There are only maybe 3 stallions that I know of in the States that have him in their pedigree.

Here's some info with a video clip: Ehrentusch (http://www.westphalians.com/Ehrentusch.htm)

[RedMare01]

I was actually just looking at Ehrentusch and his son Ehrenpreis (http://www.a-1performancesires.com/Westphalian/ehrenpreis.asp) the other day and wondering why they don't seem used much in this country...maybe because Ehrentusch is older and Ehrenpreis is only approved Westfalen? Dis Ehrentusch freeze? They look like lovely boys...

Caitlin

[DownYonder]

IIRC, Christine Traurig's Olympic horse Etienne was by Ehrentusch.

Our resident Westphalian expert should probably chime in here, but I believe I read somewhere that the typical Ehrentusch foal was a bit rough textured and old fashioned in type, so was not favored by breeders hoping to sell their foals before they had to put them under saddle.

[fannie mae]

ehrentusch.
first of all:
no black.
big stigma at nowadays market.
second, his exterieur is not meeting nowadays demand of elegant/modern type neither does he provide for the market's current desire of "longleggish" unless really meeting on a mare to add leg. the e usually comes with a longer back and boned once matured, and since head is made of bone, too, "pretty" shoppers simply pass by.
however, the E line is the alive prove that performance and length of leg have nothing to do with each other, the latter is meaningless.
westfalian equivalent to weltmeyer, if one wants to come up with a comparison, even though weltmeyers aren't that heavy.
thus, ehrentusch is not what one would consider a stellar foal maker, his value lies in riding horses who with maturity are best to work and "challenge".
a true performance line.
and one of outspoken positive vet check results, too.
some people know and value that highly - sport horse shoppers with higher and long lasting demands.
yearbook numbers about the success of his get certainly speak for themselves:
roughly 700 direct ehrentusch sport horses registered in total,
60 of those succesful in S-class (nearly ten percent! - just compare THAT number to some of those higher frequented stallions you know these days...) and these 60 split up in 43 S-dressage/17 S-jumping.

the e line is known to be double oriented and there used to be a lot of pilot crosses to E himself back then when both stallions were still alive. performance horses through and through, not everyones kind, though.
ehrenwort is a classic example for such cross and met on some demand when leased by the state stud for his first two breeding years, delivered top auction foals, went private again, disappeared form the scene, has now being reintroduced to the scene again at some private station but lack of stellar appearance (they mature heavy) makes him yet another son of E of little or no use at all.

ehrentusch kids are greatly demanded once having reached ridinghorse age, professionals usually test those Es a lot once offered at auctions as they understand where their value lies and don't care for type/modern frame etc.
they simply work.

in simple words:
ehrentusch delivers the complete opposite of everything that made the SH line big.
cynical, but true.

he and his entire male line (starting with his sire ehrensold) have never succeded to be respected as a "desired" stallion maker, simply as their dominant visual features do stamp. even though the entire verband/breedership are well aware of the positives fast money in breeding is being made in foals these days and if the foals don't look spectacular or come along black coated there is no sale.
however, people aiming at breeding, raising and developing ridinghorses for good demand most certainly go for the E-line - it does take longer, though and requires patience.

direct E daughters however are respected greatly and if you check sport horse pedigrees and auction horses you find a lot of E via damline since these mares are crossed to what the market considers "modern" stallions and the E is supposedly expected to improve a lack of engine. usually it does so pretty good.
comes with the E stamp however and that again is a question of taste ...
back to square one.

for anecdotal evidence:
when i talked to the owner of real diamond this spring and the fact that he was finally meeting on good demand first thing she said was:
".. and there are a lot of ehrentusch mares he gets to breed this year!"
so that tells you something.
as a matter of fact, a real diamond x ehrentusch daughter has just been nominated for the bundeschampionat this year.

it has been and still is present effort of the verband and state stud to maintain and enhance use of that line for all their positive values so lots of his sons have been and still are being licensed (there has been a run on the late frozen after the sire died by certain breeders) but yet again, his sons are not really used much, either, so you see some of them being sold later on as riding horses given lack of use/at the same time being replaced by young E sons at the state stud again hoping these might be frequented better.
i doubt they are, at least with respect to breeding figures being published overhere, only one of his sons made it amongst the top 40 breeding stallions or so and again, his foals are not what i'ld consider stellar sellers, either.

so if you are in for pretty, handsome, ideally black and fast selling, stay away from this line.
if you are looking for a great riding horse in the future and don't mind substance, go for it.

[RedMare01]

Great info Fannie Mae! What about his son Ehrenpreis? About the same story as his sire but only approved Westfalen? He looks like he comes from a good mareline?

Caitlin

[mbp]

For Master, I think there are two big reasons for lesser use. The first is marketing, the second is size. On the marketing front, SWANA is a smaller organization and has a lower profile than some of the other registries and the exclusive distributor of the semen (who is super knowledgeable about frozen and Swedish stallions) didn't necessarily have the kind of marketing that a Majestic Gaits (as a random example) does. Also, during a period of time when so many were looking for the next huge horse, Master tended to throw smaller.

He's a wonderful stallion, IMO. He was at Flyinge before Kyra Kyrklund took him to the UK with her and they had some video at one point of his sons, stallions and geldings, doing a big group ride (what is a quadrille with way mroe than 4 horses?) and there was a lot of stamp in that group. If you want the 17.1 hh 1600 lb horse, he's probably not your guy, and if you feel like you need the heavy advertising of a pretty well hyped stallion to help sell your foal young, he might not be your first pick either. But he is just lovely lovely.

In addition to Leslie Morse's Tip Top
http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/?p=7235
http://www.lesliemorsedressage.com/
(and now his son as well)

Ken Borden has a Master stallion son, Masterpiece
http://www.littlebitfarminc.com/id29.html

both of them here in the States.

[jdeboer01]

Wow, thanks for the insight, fannie mae! :)

It sounds like the Ehrentusch "E" line may cross quite well with the TB mare base here is the U.S. Does anyone know if his frozen semen is viable? He looks absolutely gorgeous!

J

[Tiki]

He is still listed with A-1 Performance Sires, but he is expensive, partly because he is good, partly because he is deceased.


There is a stallion out of an Ehrentusch daughter here who is doing very well in competition - Hit Parade. He is by Show Star out of Esprina* by Ehrentusch with Pasternak as the granddamsire and he is at Savoir Faire Stables. Hilltop Farm handles his breedings. Show Star has a couple of stallion sons qualified for the BuCha. He comes from Sandro Hit and also has Feiner Stern in the sire's damline.

Custom Clay is out of an Ehrentusch dam, but I think he has only a Certified Breeding License, but his damsire is Rosenkavalier and his grandsire is Contender.

I think there's another one too, but I can't find him. He may have lost his Certified Breeding License.

[dressagediosa]

I have an Ehrentanz I daughter, out of a Philipo mare (a stallion I've been able to find next-to-nothing about). She is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the nicest horse I've ever sat on. Unbelievable trot, and maybe not so scopy in the canter, but very adjustable. Super talent for piaffe and passage, huge flying changes.

She is VERY, very hot - may come from mom, as I know of a half-brother by Florestan who was also hot - but when it's on my side, she's unbelievable. She's eight this year, just made her (very very nervous) PSG debut, and won her 4-3 class with a 70% with room for improvement. She's going to be an excellent Grand Prix horse!

http://laurensprieser.com/ellegria.html is her website, with some photos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIItojDShSc is a trot and pi/pa video, not her finest effort (she was pretty tired when I made it). There are a few more videos of her on my YouTube channel.

Someone mentioned that the Ehrentusch's are heavy. This one's not - substantive yes, but not tanky by any means. I make her look little; she's 16.2.

[mmt]

Ehrentusch is a very good sire, but yes, no blacks that I have seen, and not so leggy. I think his blood however is very valuable, but not so popular to get big money for foals of young horses before they are under saddle. I really like them, however.

I do have one that was a licensed stallion - Escobar - from a very good mare, but out of a jumping line Akitos xx - Gottschalk. He is very pretty, about 171 cm, and was also a good jumper. He could have longer legs, but is not short-legged by any means, and has a really lovely head.

I am an amateur and although Escobar is not the typical amateur horse since he can be naughty sometimes and very tense at competitions, he really works for me and is very much my horse even though I only bought him right around his 9th birthday shortly after he was gelded. I am an amateur only riding part-time due to work demands, and we will make our GP debut in Germany very soon, so we have gone from M /3rd level to this in three years. That should confirm Sabine's point on how good of riding horses and how trainable the Ehrentusch horses can be.

Rather crazy to start the big tour to gain experience in Germany, but that is the way it is. Escobar has gotten 8s for his piaffe, with also good scores for his extended trot, walk, and when I ride well, the canter. Our scores have not been so great so far because I need more experience and make too many mistakes in the canter tour usually, but that is certainly not the horse's fault. It is his inexperienced amateur rider's fault!

Escobar will make a very good GP horse when confirmed, and he and I are getting our mileage together. He is the prettiest of the Ehrentusch sons I have seen I would say and it is too bad that he did not breed as far as I can tell before he was gelded.

[jdeboer01]

It sounds like the Ehrentusch "E" line may cross quite well with the TB mare base here is the U.S.

It looks like someone else thought so too. There's a couple of E stallions out of TB mares standing in Warendorf. Nice looking boys! I'd love to see this line utilized on TB mares in the U.S.!

http://www.landgestuet.nrw.de/index.php?id=52&hengstid=104

http://www.landgestuet.nrw.de/index.php?id=52&hengstid=177

[fannie mae]

http://www.pferdezucht-farwick.de/exceleroSF.html

there's more.
friends of mine have bred their tb mare to him 3 times.

[vineyridge]

It's interesting how totally different the two Westfalian stallions are in phenotype. The younger one, Exzellento, is kind of clunky looking.
In case anyone is interested, here is the pedigree of his dam:
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=2454456&registry=T&horse_name==Shaharit%20(GB)&dam_name=Lady%27s%20Flag&foaling_year=1990&nicking_stats_indicator=Y (http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=2454456&registry=T&horse_name==Shaharit%20%28GB%29&dam_name=Lady%27s%20Flag&foaling_year=1990&nicking_stats_indicator=Y)

Given my predilection for TBs, I prefer the looks of Expansion.
Here is his dam's pedigree:
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=1691865&registry=T&horse_name==Hanover%20Hope%20(GER)&dam_name=Helen%20Elizabeth&foaling_year=1996&nicking_stats_indicator=Y (http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=1691865&registry=T&horse_name==Hanover%20Hope%20%28GER%29&dam_name=Helen%20Elizabeth&foaling_year=1996&nicking_stats_indicator=Y)

You will probably notice that both mares have at least 1/2 North American TB blood. :) And, I might add, from the lines that we all know are good for sport horses.

[wehrlegirl]

Wow, thanks for the insight, fannie mae! :)

It sounds like the Ehrentusch "E" line may cross quite well with the TB mare base here is the U.S. Does anyone know if his frozen semen is viable? He looks absolutely gorgeous!

J

We have a mare in foal to Ehrenpreis for '10 that was open for five years and took on a single dose... he was chosen by suggestion of Dr Andrea Seig (sp?) who said his temperament and ridability was wonderful..

ps- I wanted to add this mare is 1/2 Tb out of a mare with full Westphalian lines-- very leggy.

[wehrlegirl]

Hi, reviving an old thread... has anyone else used Ehrentusch or Ehrenpreis? Id love to hear about the foals or riding age horses..Im in love with our yearling colt. BIG movement and a puppy dog temperament, though a bit of a dork right now.