Behavior change due to electrolyte depletion

[Green Acres]

I was surfing the internet yesterday and came across the below link:

http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Horses&story_no=1303

I had never heard this but was curious if a depletion in electrolytes could cause a behavior change, specifically spooking. I have a TB who is been very spooky the last few weeks which is very unlike him.

[deltawave]

Allowing for the weird terminology (alkaline bicarbonate) that might be due to a variation in language between here and Australia, my biggest problem is that there is no citation of the study they mention. My other problem is the fact that what they really seem to be describing is simple contraction alkalosis, where a dehydrated animal can run a very slightly higher serum bicarbonate level--the remedy for this is WATER. It is nothing new, nothing novel, and nothing that this company (which appears to be wanting to sell electrolytes) has some sort of lock on, biologically. :) This phenomenon is perfectly well described and not at all some sort of new discovery.

The body will maintain a normal serum pH no matter what, short of immenent collapse, so I have a little bit of difficulty figuring out how an elevated serum bicarbonate (which is adaptive and normal) would change an animal's behavior. That's why I'd love a citation to the actual study they claim made this link.

Article courtesy of Dr John Kohnke from ‘Health Care and problems of Horses, 9th edition’ published by Virbac-Vetsearch.

Hmmm, that sounds impressive until you realize the publisher of this article is no one else but the company selling the product. :) A PubMed search with all possible permutations of the relevant key words (spooky, electrolyte, alkalosis, horse, etc.) yields nothing, I'm afraid.

Summary: keep your horse well hydrated and supply electrolytes, but probably we ought to look elsewhere for causes of behavior changes. :)

[Ghazzu]

Properly functioning kidneys have more than adequate ability to remove excess bicarbonate from the bloodstream.

Like delta said, give the horse a drink and some electroytes if he's sweating a lot.

[BornToRide]

I was surfing the internet yesterday and came across the below link:

http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Horses&story_no=1303

I had never heard this but was curious if a depletion in electrolytes could cause a behavior change, specifically spooking. I have a TB who is been very spooky the last few weeks which is very unlike him.
They may be missing part of the equation, like extra grain feed for more work that may be more likely the culprit.....see here too http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080815170625.htm

[Bluey]

They are selling one more of those neutraceutical products.
They don't NEED any proof or reason, can invent their own and, as long as people buy it, do fine, thank you.:)
Just think how much free publicity they get just out of this thread.;)
Who doesn't has a horse that could shy less? Behind that "reason" is a ready made market.:yes:

[Macnachtan]

I was surfing the internet yesterday and came across the below link:

http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Horses&story_no=1303

I had never heard this but was curious if a depletion in electrolytes could cause a behavior change, specifically spooking. I have a TB who is been very spooky the last few weeks which is very unlike him.

You know...it actually makes sense. Humans act different when they are lacking those. But they just, as a rule, get "pissy". So I don't see why a horse wouldn't act differently.

[Bluey]

You know...it actually makes sense. Humans act different when they are lacking those. But they just, as a rule, get "pissy". So I don't see why a horse wouldn't act differently.

Why doesn't make sense?
One word, as already explained by DW and Ghazzu, homeostasis::yes:

---"The ability or tendency of an organism or cell to maintain internal equilibrium by adjusting its physiological processes."---

[deltawave]

Myth-busting the nutraceutical juggernaut is one of my hobbies. :D If I can get just a few people to start demanding proof and thinking critically, it'll have been worth it. ;)

I'm not criticizing the OP--it's the ones who "buy first, ask questions later" or "buy first, NEVER ask questions" that are being victimized, IMO. Their problem? Sure, but it still ticks me off. :mad:

Humans act different when they are lacking those.

What are "those", and what are you basing this conclusion upon? :confused:

[Macnachtan]

Myth-busting the nutraceutical juggernaut is one of my hobbies. :D If I can get just a few people to start demanding proof and thinking critically, it'll have been worth it. ;)

I'm not criticizing the OP--it's the ones who "buy first, ask questions later" or "buy first, NEVER ask questions" that are being victimized, IMO. Their problem? Sure, but it still ticks me off. :mad:



What are "those", and what are you basing this conclusion upon? :confused:

Huh? The two questions to me below don't make sense? I don't understand what you are asking.

[Green Acres]

I'm not criticizing the OP--it's the ones who "buy first, ask questions later" or "buy first, NEVER ask questions" that are being victimized, IMO. Their problem? Sure, but it still ticks me off. :mad:


Don't worry I'm not buying....I have electrolytes when needed. ;) I thought it sounded cooky since I hadn't seen anything like that elsewhere.

Just wanted the expert opinions of COTH!!!:yes:

[deltawave]

I was quoting what you wrote: what, exactly, did you mean when you said that humans lacking "those" act differently? By "those" do you mean electrolyte disorders or deficiencies? Dehydration? Contraction alkalosis? Potassium depletion? I'm not aware of anything published that would lead me to believe that human behavior is impacted one way or another by any of those things. :confused:

[Macnachtan]

Don't worry I'm not buying....I have electrolytes when needed. ;) I thought it sounded cooky since I hadn't seen anything like that elsewhere.

Just wanted the expert opinions of COTH!!!:yes:

I actually didn't read it as an ad. I read it more of that the depletion of curtain vitamins and minerals (eletrolytes) cause adverse behavior changes. Which is a proven fact in humans and animals.

Enough said for me.

[deltawave]

Vitamins, possibly. Electrolytes, no. (as far as "proven facts" and behavior changes go)

Not sure what vitamins have to do with electrolytes . . .

[Macnachtan]

Vitamins, possibly. Electrolytes, no. (as far as "proven facts" and behavior changes go)

Not sure what vitamins have to do with electrolytes . . .

Electrolytes aid in a number of vital bodily processes. Many heart and nerve functions, muscle control and coordination, and the body's ability to absorb fluids all depend on a healthy balance of electrolytes. The most common electrolytes found in the human body are sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride and calcium. Various hormones in the body help regulate intake of these electrolytes, and the kidneys filter electrolytes which reach excessive levels. Unhealthy levels of consumption of any or all of the body's necessary electrolytes can cause serious health issues. The most common imbalances are hyper- and hypo-natremia, or excessive and insufficient levels of sodium, and hyper- and hypo-kalemia, or excessive and insufficient levels of potassium.

Inhibited nerve functions can cause behavioral changes.


OK Back to lurking now. You can all go ahead and keep attacking the newbie.

[Ghazzu]

Inhibited nerve functions can cause behavioral changes.


At the point that nerve function becomes impaired as a consequence of electrolyte imbalance, there are more serious things going on than a "moody" horse.


OK Back to lurking now. You can all go ahead and keep attacking the newbie.

I don't see anyone "attacking the newbie". I do see people cautioning others to look at what an author is selling when evaluating his claims.

[Bluey]

Electrolytes aid in a number of vital bodily processes. Many heart and nerve functions, muscle control and coordination, and the body's ability to absorb fluids all depend on a healthy balance of electrolytes. The most common electrolytes found in the human body are sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride and calcium. Various hormones in the body help regulate intake of these electrolytes, and the kidneys filter electrolytes which reach excessive levels. Unhealthy levels of consumption of any or all of the body's necessary electrolytes can cause serious health issues. The most common imbalances are hyper- and hypo-natremia, or excessive and insufficient levels of sodium, and hyper- and hypo-kalemia, or excessive and insufficient levels of potassium.

Inhibited nerve functions can cause behavioral changes.


OK Back to lurking now. You can all go ahead and keep attacking the newbie.

Slow down there, no one is attacking anyone, just trying to clarify the known facts.

You keep saying something, but not presenting any facts to it, not in the intended use as per this discussion.

As I said, organisms are very resilient, it will take a very strange imbalance on a normal organism to cause any serious problems and they would show as physical problems long before any mental function would be impaired enough to be show thru a specific behavior as shying.

We were asking for proof of any studies saying that what was postulated in that OP's infomercial was based on scientific studies, that's all.

I see that Ghazzu has already explained and with fewer words.;)

[deltawave]

You'll find that in general people here--with some striking exceptions--have a pretty sophisticated understanding of how the body works. ;) Infomercials (I like that, Bluey) are not taken at face value too often, thank heaven. Healthy skepticism (IMO) trumps wikipedia clips every time.

[Peggy]

In looking at the article, I think that the word "alkaline" in "alkaline bicarbonate" is just an adjective. IOW, just another way of saying "basic bicarbonate." Maybe to remind people that bicarbonate is basic? But I don't think they're referred to anything strange or weird, or even that "alkaline bicarbonate" is Australian for carbonate.

Note - alkaline = basic.

I will defer the physiological discussion to the experts.

[deltawave]

Kind of like saying "sweet sugar" or "wet water", I guess. :)

[Peggy]

Kind of like saying "sweet sugar" or "wet water", I guess. :)Pretty much.

Tho if you follow the "rule" given in some General Chemistry texts you'd accidentally classify it as acidic. But that's neither here nor there.