Not Eating Grain post-op and other issues

[draftgirl01]

I have a 12 year old perch/tb cross weighing 1646 pds. Recently she had her 3rd eyelid removed for squamous cell carcinomas. Unfortunately, she tied up after surgery and we have been dealing with her muscle enzyme counts and all that goes with this. She has had IV fluids and a course of gastroguard.

Vets involved believe my mare probably had EPSM but because I have always managed her diet and she has great turnout and in work that this was not noticeable until after the surgery and anethesia.

She gets 3 lbs of Triple Crown of Lite a day which she has always eaten, lots of hay (1st cut only), large and long turnout, and now we have added Vitamin E and Selenium (pelleted format which she has eaten before)

We have sent a blood sample off to Dr. Valberg for testing and are waiting for results.

I have always read everything on Rural Heritage and have had email conversations with Dr. Valentine since I have owned her.

The past week my mare does not want to eat her grain, she has been leaving PM grain behind and just is not interested in her AM at all, is eating hay, and just stands and wants to go outside.

I am not sure what to do at this point.

[MunchkinsMom]

Is she on antibiotics? Some of those when given orally taste nasty, and the horses don't want to eat their grain because they still have the nasty taste in their mouth.

I had a similar issue post colic surgery, my gelding would not eat the grain he used to eat, or many of the other grains I tried. I was further frustrated because hay was a no-no for him forevermore. Luckily I found one that he would eat. So, between that and hand grazing every other hour for weeks. . .

Can you hand graze her during this recovery period, or is she still in a stall hooked up to IV's?

Oh, I also made sure that my gelding had a budy in the barn with him, I would switch off my other two horses to babysit with him all day long.

[BornToRide]

I personally would not feed a horse like this any grain - they generally do not need it. TC Lite's first ingredient is Wheat middlings and is followed not much later by can molasses. Some horse do not need much to react to something, no matter what the feed back might say.

[draftgirl01]

She is not on antibiotics or any IVs. I am still waiting for tests for the EPSM. I have reduced her grain and she is getting some Empower to add fat. I am testing beet pulp with no molasses with oil to see if she will eat this to get her off grain completely.

[Blinkers On]

I agree with Born To Ride. IF the horse tied up, the grain will further complicate the situation. High quality hay including a wee bit of alfalfa and zero grain.
I fully believe in banamine and muscle relaxants after a horse ties up. AND as stated carb aka grain even the lite stuff isn't a good idea in this scenario. Though if you are insistent that she receive grain, then a much smaller amount than the horse was previously eating.
IS the eye covered? Can she hand walked?

[Fantastic]

I had a young horse tie up post-op, too. Apparently his hind end seized up and he sat down like a dog once they got him back to his stall. I suspected selenium deficiency. Vets doubted it. I said please test anyway (considering he came from a low selenium state, and from Holland (also low selenium) prior to that - it made sense that he could be). Sure enough, he was selenium deficient. He got the Sel and E shot while in the hospital, and perked back up. We did the math on how much he needed daily to get back to normal and put him on an additional 6 mgs (this was in addition to what was in his vit/min, hay, concentrates). He received this extra S+E for several months, and has been fine ever since!

Hope your horse feels better soon!

[draftgirl01]

I agree with Born To Ride. IF the horse tied up, the grain will further complicate the situation. High quality hay including a wee bit of alfalfa and zero grain.
I fully believe in banamine and muscle relaxants after a horse ties up. AND as stated carb aka grain even the lite stuff isn't a good idea in this scenario. Though if you are insistent that she receive grain, then a much smaller amount than the horse was previously eating.
IS the eye covered? Can she hand walked?

There is no doubt she tied up, all the blood work shows that is the case. This was a simple 3rd eyelid removal because she had carcinomas on them. She was down for awhile at the vet hospital and they told me they were going to pull blood to check levels, and they did not. We started this when she came home because I knew she was not right and then she went down in the pasture. Her BUN levels were up to 51, so giving bute, banamine, etc. when kidney levels were not normal was not something the vet recommended to do, they were working hard enough.

She is out, has been turned out since she got home, other than a day or two in stall rest until we figure what was going on. Her eye is fine, that is the least of the problems with this surgery. She wears a flymask all day.

I don't want to drastically change feed overnight, which is why I am slowly changing it.

She now has to take Vitamin E/Sel so I need to bury it in something. She loves the Cocosoya oil I borrowed from a friend and she gets plenty of hay. She has plenty of pasture to move around in.

My vet is on vacation and until we get results from Dr. Valberg I am slowly changing things for her.

[draftgirl01]

I had a young horse tie up post-op, too. Apparently his hind end seized up and he sat down like a dog once they got him back to his stall. I suspected selenium deficiency. Vets doubted it. I said please test anyway (considering he came from a low selenium state, and from Holland (also low selenium) prior to that - it made sense that he could be). Sure enough, he was selenium deficient. He got the Sel and E shot while in the hospital, and perked back up. We did the math on how much he needed daily to get back to normal and put him on an additional 6 mgs (this was in addition to what was in his vit/min, hay, concentrates). He received this extra S+E for several months, and has been fine ever since!

Hope your horse feels better soon!

We discussed doing a Vitamin E shot but there are risks associated with that. We consulted with an internist and I was told that there have been cases where the horse has gone into anaphylactic shock from a Vitamin E. Where I felt my horse was already dealing with so much, I choose not to administer that shot due to the risks.

We now supplement her with the SmartPak Vitamin E/Sel because it is pelleted and she eats it.

[Fantastic]

You have to pull a blood test to determine if the horse is selenium deficient; doesn't cost much to do it, and then you'll know if that's what the real problem is or if you're just wasting money on the suppliment. Giving a little bit of selenium and e is just guessing that your horse needs it at all, or may be needing a whole lot more than what's in that little dose. Without testing, what make you think your horse needs it at all?

Se and E is not the only shot that can cause anaphylatic shock in horses; there are other more common drugs (penicillin antibotics, vaccines) that can and do, too. If your horse truely is selenium deficient, and this is the cause of some of her problems, then the Se and E shot will get the blood levels closer to norm quickly. Do you know the selenium levels in your hay? Does she get a multiple vit/min suppliment appropriate to her weight? Do you know if you in a selenium deficient area?

Like yours, my horse never showed any tying up problems prior to surgery, and hasn't since he was diagnosed with selenium deficiency and then treated. Test results took about 24 hrs, and now looking back I believe the cost is $120 or so. Quite cheap in the grand scheme of things, and over the stream of expensive suppliment buckets over a years time.

Also, did you biopsy to confirm the EPSM?

[Fantastic]

Forgot to add: selenium toxicity is also a valid issue if you are supplimenting and your horse does not need it. That's why testing is so important.

[draftgirl01]

I am waiting for the results for the EPSM testing. The testing is being done at the Univ of Minnesota by Dr. Valberg who can now do EPSM testing without doing muscle biopsies, they use blood.

Will discuss sel test with Vet when she returns.

[chancellor2]

draftgirl,
We are in a selenium deficient area in New England so you probably do need to supplement selenium. BUT, I would definitely pull some blood work on that.

[draftgirl01]

I will talk to my vet about testing for Selenium when she returns. The latest round of blood shows her CPK and AST are continuing to come down and have reduce dramatically but are still no in normal ranges.

I have removed her grain from her diet and her meals consist of soaked beet pulp (poulin with the soy oil), oil (gradually building up the amount), and a cup of the Nutrena Empower and her Vitamin E supplement. She is very happy eating this mixture.

Checked today with the vet's office but the bloodwork for the EPSM test from the Univ of Minn is not back yet. It can take up to 14 days I read so hopefully next week.

[draftgirl01]

Bloodwork for the EPSM test from the Univ of Minn came back neg/neg which isn't an absolute rule out that she doesn't have EPSM however a muscle biopsy would have to be taken as the next step to do this. And at this point I am not looking at doing this right now.

Her levels are going back to normal, the urea nitrogen level still needs to get to normal.

I have been emailing Dr. Valentine and I have started her diet change as if she has EPSM and will go from there.