help with my bucking mare

[*Liz*]

Hi all, I'm new to posting on this forum though I frequently read through the threads. So, here we go: I have a 5 year old BWP mare that I'm currently training to be a hunter. 95% of the time, she's the calmest, laziest youngster you've ever come across. However, when she's so inclined - she has a nasty, nasty buck that rattles my confidence.

She almost always starts by shaking her head, then she yanks it down to her knees and snakes it around while bucking and flailing/striking with her front legs. I've owned her over a year and have yet to fall off yet, but the fear is definitely there.

When does she buck? Usually it's when she trips or loses her balance. She finds this terribly upsetting and will have a bucking fit. Occasionally she'll buck after a fence or just out of the blue, but it's usually due to her tripping or not paying attention.

What do I do? I've gotten better about catching it before it starts. Keeping her head up and keeping her moving forward, attentive, and off the forehand helps to prevent the bucking in the first place, however I'm still at a loss for what to do during the bucking or to try to get this to stop entirely. When she really yanks her head down to buck, I can NOT keep it up. She's a 5 y/o 16.2hh WB and I'm 21, 5'5, and 105lbs - I just do not have the strength to pull her up. Thus I've developed 'bucking position' where I slip the reins to the buckle and lean back because I don't care to be ripped off her back. I try to squeeze her forward and pull her back up from the buckle of the reins and I'll usually get her through it in about 15-20 seconds.

My thoughts: There has got to be a better way/ something else for me to do. I feel like a sitting duck up on my mare, just waiting for her to have a fit and when she does there's nothing I can do about it but ride it out. I would like to stop the bucking, but I don't know how to go about this. She knows at this point that I'm not falling off and bucking only equals more work; so what's my next step?

Thanks in advance.
-Liz and Elantra

[MintHillFarm]

Wow, 15-20 seconds! The cowboys at the rodeo get 8!
I am impressed you can stay on that long...

I never had one where the bucking would be more than a very rare reaction to being fresh. Your mare sounds like she is very athletic and it is easy for her to react this way. I don't know what to tell you frankly!

Your description of her being mad if she trips makes sense and she sounds like she's quick enough to start bucking before you have a chance to do too much...I am sorry I am not more helpful. I would make sure you always get a reaction when you put your leg on her and she knows what forward means. You mentioned lazy and I would want to make sure that if I were riding her, she is always up and out in front of me. My old trainer used to say a sharp "hey" when one she was one would act up. I use it too occassionally and the sharpness of the sound of it sometimes breaks up the silence and it gets their attention for a second or so.

Let us know how things go, I know it has to be frustrating for you!

[Moocow]

There are no saddle pinching issues here? I used to ride a horse who would bronc after some jumps and we thought it was a behavioural thing until we realized the saddle was pinching on the landings of some of the bigger fences.
But if it's not that....
Instead of squeezing her forward, boot her forward. Even though she is still young, bucking isn't an acceptable behaviour when under saddle. A horse that is moving forward isn't able to buck nearly as easily. Keep up with the leaning back, but don't be afraid to lose your leg position to give her a good ol' boot to let her know it's unacceptable. More than anything I think she will grow out of it, as it sounds is does not do it to be bad.

[*Liz*]

Thanks for the quick replies, I look forward to more :)

I do use a lot of vocal aids in my riding. When I feel her start to 'go' I yell a sharp 'HEYYY!!' or 'NO MA'AM!!' to get her attention, and while it helps it still doesn't rectify the situation.

I've been working diligently on keeping her forward and out and up in front of me. She's doing much better but it's the story of my life riding her. Nudge, squeeze, cluck to encourage her to stay nice and forward and then it's all gravy. Keep her forward and she'll carry herself. Here's a picture of us hacking from a few weeks ago: photo (http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/eae06c/P6230379.jpg)

Her saddle fit is good. I ride in a Devoucoux and always use extra padding (usually a fleeceworks half-pad.) So I really doubt it's that. Sometimes she'll go for weeks without bucking, other times it's every other ride where she'll have a couple bucking fits. It also doesn't seem to correlate to how much work she's had or how much time off, etc.

Also, if it helps anyone to know: I ride her in this bit in german silver (http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_X1-01354) for flatwork and this bit (http://toklat.com/dyn_prod.php?p=89-21315&k=88012) for jumping. She has a very soft mouth and hence goes really nice and soft in these 'nice' bits, but they don't help me much at all when she decides to be bull-headed.

[Vitriolic]

I am much smaller than you and went through this with a 17 hh 4 yr old. He got over it quickly that year, but came back as a bigger, stronger 5 yr old. It is almost like they are embarrassed that they tripped, so have to make a big show of their athleticism. I too managed to stay on, but would be at the buckle in a very precarious position as his head was somewhere between his hind legs. If I got a chance to rip his head up, he would leap through the air with his ears in my face. This behavior was becoming almost a daily occurrence as I was so busy not falling off, I wasn't really punishing him much. Hubby made me put a wire snaffle on him with a standing martingale. I could quickly pull his head up and the martingale saved me from getting his head in my face. This was not so fun for him so he quit. I still go back to that equipment if he has had time off although he is much older now and goes in a fat snaffle usually. Good luck. I would do anything to nip it in the bud before it becomes ingrained.

[Cowgirl Lindz]

As long as you don't think its a physical problem/saddle fit, I would suggest you get a western saddle. Really I rode my 16.2 WB mare who had some minor bucking issues in a western saddle. I read somewhere that you ride them in a bridle and halter you clip a rode lead to the halter and tie the other end around the saddle horn. Tie it fairly short not to short just the enough so that they catch themself when they try to buck. One good pull on the halter/nose and that usually is it.
Just a suggestion It worked for me

[lesson junkie]

When I was your age, and they bucked, they got yanked up, spun, and galloped for a good 3 times around the arena. Discounting saddlebreaking and physical discomfort, bucking is the Horsie Middle Finger, and that needs to cost sweat and deep breathing. The punishment for bucking is Go Forward, Now, For as Long as I Say.

I am old now-if I were you, I'd call the cowboy.

[shawneeAcres]

Three suggestions. First, do work that will increase her capacity to carry herself on the HIND END and not the FOREHAND< i.e. LOTS of leg yielding, shoulder-fore/shoulder-in, spiraling on circles. These things get her "up" more, teach her to use herself better and keep her work interesting and her mind occupied with soemthign OTHER than bucking. Second, when she bucks you need to do a one rein stop on her. Take one rein and PULL her head around to your knee, I will warn you this can cause a horse to fall if done abruptly, so either be prepared or have a pro rider do it. But if you do this consistently 2 - 3 times when she bucks, basically "taking her head away" she will quickly figure out it is NOT a good idea. WHich brings me to number three suggestion, take her to a GOOD cowboy type trainer, not someone who "yahoos"! But a good, quiet cowboy type and let him ride her thru it with the one rein stop a few times if that is too much for you.

[twoposies]

Have you ever tried planting on hand and pulling her up sharply with the other hand to left or right, essentially making her spin? (Same tactic you use for a horse that would like to run off with you, or already has - I don't know if it makes sense the way I explained it). I have long legs and am pretty strong so whenever I get a bucker I generally get them through it and smack them on the rump (which I will forewarn you generally causes another bucking fit) but they usually get the picture and learn bucking is not acceptable after a few bucking attempts rewards them with a good smack - I don't know how well the smacking would work as you're tiny:sadsmile:, just a thought

[*Liz*]

Thanks to all the advice so far.

Vitriolic - While I think putting her into a wire snaffle would possibly allow me to pull her head up, I'm really not fond of the idea of putting that kind of a bit in her mouth. Because she's very light in the bridle and soft in my hand, I would hate to do anything to ruin that.

Cowgirl Lindz - Situations like this make me wish my mom hadn't thrown away my western saddle when I moved away to college. This is actually an idea that I like and think may be effective - assuming I could find a western saddle to borrow. My fear however is that when I put my jumping saddle back on her, she'll know the difference and we'll be back where we started.
In a similar notion - I've thought about making some daisy-reins out of bailing twine, but that seems gimmicky.

Her bucking is simplistic in the aspect that once you get her head up, she's done playing; or if you can keep her from throwing her head down in the first place - there's no bucking. Unfortunately, I am not able to one-rein stop, pulley-rein, or yank her up. In my past, my tactic is usually to yank the head up, (depending on the horse/pony - give a smack/fist in the rump), and send them forward. This has always worked for me in the past. However with Elle, when I yank/pull/whatever all that happens is I get ripped forward towards her ears.

Could someone bigger/stronger than me keep her head up? I'm sure, but I've been this size for years now and it's my mare - she needs to ride well for me. This is also my concern about having someone else try to fix her bucking issue. I worry that she'll know when my tiny butt is in the saddle she may take advantage of me - in the same way a bratty pony would a child but not an adult rider.

[jen-s]

Have you had a chiro look at her? I wonder if it could be possible that when she trips, there's something that gets pinches or pushed on in a short, sharp manner and part of the bucking might be in response to that.

Otherwise, I think you've gotten some fabulous advice from the previous posters. Please let us know if things get better and what you did.

[*Liz*]

I have not had a chiro look at her, but I work regularly with an amazing acupuncturist (who brought my A/O jumper gelding from dead lame and misdiagnosed for over a year back to full soundness) who has never yet to find anything off with her. I haven't had her worked on in at least 6 months though, but when he travels through my area again - he will work on both my horses.

[Czar]

whenever I get a bucker I generally get them through it and smack them on the rump (which I will forewarn you generally causes another bucking fit)

Ditto.

The more obstinate ones don't respond to voice or leg pressure - they need a good whooping.

I worked with a 4 yr old WB mare that was born nasty - she liked to try the same thing your mare does. The last time she did it I was carrying a dressage whip (on a good bucker, it's easier not to have to reach back with a crop) and she came around a corner and started to balk. I smacked her with the whip and she let fly....so I smacked her again to which she again bucked; it took the length of the arena and looked like a rodeo show but I just kept giving it to her when she resisted or reacted. Like I said, that was the last time she did it.

First thing about a bucker, don't EVER pull up. It's an automatic response b/c it usually rattles the rider but it's completely opposite to what you want to do. Second thing...don't fall off ;) If you're going to challenge them, make sure you can win. If you don't think you can, take shawnee's advice and send the horse to a cowboy.

[Filly85']

We had a problem similar to this. The circumstances were different. This was a 9 year old 16.2 TB gelding that was purchased already with this behavioral problem. However, we were unaware of it when he was just purchased. He would buck after the jump to get the rider off. It was a hateful and intentional thing. Not a playful thing. Not a physical thing. He did not do it with my trainer because she was strong enough and a good enough rider to leg him forward after the jump and keep him between her hands and her legs. However, his regular rider had some very nasty falls from this behavior. His hind feet would literally be 8 feet up in the air.

One day, after the rider had fallen off of him from this behavior for the 5th time in three months, my trainer had enough. Right after he bucked her off, my trainer took her crop and gave him a few very hard smacks on the shoulder while yelling very harshly at him. It was enough to make him very afraid to ever do that again. Four months later, he still hasn't done it again and his rider has jumped him up to 3'6" now. Everyone is happy. The horse goes around like an old pro in his classes and the rider doesn't fall off. When the behavior is dangerous, sometimes you just need to go ahead and discipline.

I'm not saying this will help with this mare because they are different circumstances and different horses, and I don't condone this type of discipline unless it is a last resort and absolutely necessary, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. I've been with my trainer for ten years and I've only seen her get after a horse like that twice. Tripping is not an excuse to go completely bonkers.

I'm also the same height and weight as you, although I'm 2 years your senior. As long as you're fit, weight doesn't have much to do with it. My trainer's mom is also our height and weight, and has been that way throughout her entire life. She could ride anything through any kind of problem.

[Vitriolic]

Thanks to all the advice so far.

Vitriolic - While I think putting her into a wire snaffle would possibly allow me to pull her head up, I'm really not fond of the idea of putting that kind of a bit in her mouth. Because she's very light in the bridle and soft in my hand, I would hate to do anything to ruin that.



I was very reluctant too, but he only got it a few times before he realized that I was finally winning. (And hubby forced me. He goes bonkers when I get drug around. :D ) The next year, I did let my husband ride him for a month as he also felt I was letting him be too strung out and on the forehand, (I am a little too conservative with a big, klutzy horse) and when I got my mount back, he was much better for me. I was worried that he'd say, "You aren't much" and go back to bucking, but he was "Oh, so this is how I am supposed to go". He really is a kind guy with a good mouth.

I know what you mean by being afraid that he will only behave for a bigger stronger person as I have seen that happen too. I guess it is luck of the draw, but I find the more good days they have in a row, the less likely a bad behavior is to resurface. Good luck.

[Czar]

I worry that she'll know when my tiny butt is in the saddle she may take advantage of me - in the same way a bratty pony would a child but not an adult rider.

How long has this behaviour been going on?

She is only 5 so if it's nipped in the bud now, I doubt she has been doing it long enough to figure out who she can do it with and who she can't - most WB's aren't that smart anyway ;) If she's pretty even-tempered (which she sounds like she is despite this little bucking issue) then it shouldn't be a problem.

[Chef Jade]

Personally I would just give her a turnout before you ride and let her get her bucks out then. She's young, she'll probably just grow out of it (unless she is like my BWP mare!) The other day Sofia's tail hit me in the head during a particularly large buck. :eek: Fortunately, I can read her like a book, so I usually know when its coming.