Parelli - Rant

[cyberbay]

A Parelli person the other day left my horse alone in the pasture when she took her horse out of it to go riding. The surrounding pastures were empty, and as she well knows -- these 2 horses have been pastured together for several months -- my horse takes exception to being alone in the pasture.

So, he ran the fenceline -- a lot -- and has, because of that carelessness -- made his fragile stifle sore again. Because of her. Because she has gulped the Kool-Aid that that showman (notice I didn't say 'horseman') Parelli offers to every sucker out there who wants badly, so badly, to be 'one with the horse,' b/c of their own lonely spirit. And now my horse is not right b/c of her. She claimed she didn't know he was out there, even though his leadrope was tied to the fence... right next to her horse's leadrope.

And then later this week, I saw an e/mail from a group trying to adopt out horses -- many offered with 'Parelli' as part of their skills -- yet these horses are not finding homes, it seems. Because these horses are trained in a special 'speak,' and not in common, basic horsemanship that is available to anyone who respects the horse and cares enough for him to socialize him so that anyone can handle him sufficiently, and horse and human understand each other.

What is the creeping virus that is coming along, this cult, that victimizes horses and promises that people can do sparkly hoops and twirly ropes, that witholding water and food are all OK, and they, wink wink, don't have to pay homage to the thousands of years of horsemanship that has shaped mainstream horsemanship?

Say all you want that natural horsemanship fixed your horse's problems. As far as I'm concerned, good horsemanship, in which the horse's long-term wellbeing and health are central, fixes 90% of any 'problem.' It's good horsemanship, not cult thinking, that makes horses happy citizens and safer to be around. Read the old masters, from Xenophon on (or even older), and they just used respect, thoughtfulness, and a genuine caring to 'train' their mounts.

I'm not against the real horsemen, like Ray Hunt and John Lyons, but I can name lots and lots of trainers of the sport-horse disciplines who think like a horse, genuinely respect him, accommodate personality and temperment, and don't make the horse a trick-doer so that they feel that they can have a mystical bond and no responsibility.

[trubandloki]

I must admit, I am missing what her leaving your horse out alone has to do with what trainer she follows.

:confused:

I kind of think the two are not related.

[GettingBack]

I very much think the two are not related.

And the horses do need to learn to deal with being separated - are you saying she should have brought your horse in while her horse was being worked with?

[JB]

See, THIS is why I get so infuriated at so many of these threads. X situation happens, and even when X situation has NOTHING to do with a particular trainer or discipline, the fact that the person who did/caused X follows that trainer/discipline means that the trainer/discipline is the real problem.

It could just as easily been a dressage person or hunter person or student of Klimke or anyone. Would it then have been the fault of Dressage or Hunters or Klimke?

Get over it :mad:

[Auventera Two]

A Parelli person the other day left my horse alone in the pasture when she took her horse out of it to go riding. The surrounding pastures were empty, and as she well knows -- these 2 horses have been pastured together for several months -- my horse takes exception to being alone in the pasture.

What does this have to do with Parelli? :confused:

Training a horse to be alone is a pretty vital skill. What if the buddy had to go to the vet? Yes, it was inconsiderate of her to not take your horse's emotions into account and put him in a stall, or move him next to another buddy.

But - several months - and this is the FIRST time this horse has been taken away from his buddy? Or this is the first time the buddy was gone, AND the pastures adjacent were empty?

So, he ran the fenceline -- a lot -- and has, because of that carelessness -- made his fragile stifle sore again. Because of her. Because she has gulped the Kool-Aid that that showman (notice I didn't say 'horseman') Parelli offers to every sucker out there who wants badly, so badly, to be 'one with the horse,' b/c of their own lonely spirit. And now my horse is not right b/c of her. She claimed she didn't know he was out there, even though his leadrope was tied to the fence... right next to her horse's leadrope.

Again, what does this have to do with Parelli? The horse ran the fence line because that's what horses do when separated from their herd.

I am completely failing to see this connection to Parelli that you're trying to make.

And then later this week, I saw an e/mail from a group trying to adopt out horses -- many offered with 'Parelli' as part of their skills -- yet these horses are not finding homes, it seems. Because these horses are trained in a special 'speak,' and not in common, basic horsemanship that is available to anyone who respects the horse and cares enough for him to socialize him so that anyone can handle him sufficiently, and horse and human understand each other.

In case you haven't noticed, this country is in bakrupty and the horse market crashed a couple of years ago. I doubt that the inability to find homes for these animals has much, if anything, to do with Parelli training. People are giving horses away, and even turning them loose just to get rid of them.

What is the creeping virus that is coming along, this cult, that victimizes horses and promises that people can do sparkly hoops and twirly ropes, that witholding water and food are all OK, and they, wink wink, don't have to pay homage to the thousands of years of horsemanship that has shaped mainstream horsemanship?

Are you feeling ok today? Again - what does this have to do with your horse having an injured stifle? It seems you have an ax to grind with Parelli and that doesn't have a thing in the world to do with your horse being injured because he was left alone in a field.

Say all you want that natural horsemanship fixed your horse's problems. As far as I'm concerned, good horsemanship, in which the horse's long-term wellbeing and health are central, fixes 90% of any 'problem.' It's good horsemanship, not cult thinking, that makes horses happy citizens and safer to be around. Read the old masters, from Xenophon on (or even older), and they just used respect, thoughtfulness, and a genuine caring to 'train' their mounts.

I'm not against the real horsemen, like Ray Hunt and John Lyons, but I can name lots and lots of trainers of the sport-horse disciplines who think like a horse, genuinely respect him, accommodate personality and temperment, and don't make the horse a trick-doer so that they feel that they can have a mystical bond and no responsibility.

Again - are you feeling ok? :confused: :lol:

My horses have been injured at boarding barns due to one thing or another. I fail to see what Parelli or natural horsemanship has to do with the fact that a fellow boarder wanted to ride her horse and did so.

If your horse is so crazy that he can't be left alone in a pasture, then you should be pasturing him with multiple horses so that he always has a buddy. Or, training him to learn to be alone.

You can't expect the owner of your horse's buddy to never ride her horse or pull him out of the field because your horse can't handle being alone. That is rather pretentious on your part, don't you think?

[Androcles]

If your horse is so crazy that he can't be left alone in a pasture, then you should be pasturing him with multiple horses so that he always has a buddy. Or, training him to learn to be alone.


I don't have much opinion on this but I take violent exception to a horse not being able to be left alone being called 'crazy'. Anyone who would say this does not understand horse's social hierarchy and hard wiring. It is normal for a horse to seek and require companionship of another horse, not an indication of 'craziness'. It is their method of survival in the wild and you don't 'train' out their insinct that allows them to survive.

My horse is pastured with one other horse who calls for him incessantly when I take him out of the pasture. No one especially me considers that horse 'crazy', rather acting like a normal horse. I have been doing this for over a year and somehow he hasn't been 'trained' out of it yet.

[GettingBack]

I have one that is extremely needy like that. Some just call, and then some get absolutely goofy - self-destructive.

I'm teaching him to handle separations from his buddy in short stints - it's part of life. Because we also have trouble leaving his buddy when ridden - bad juju.

[Auventera Two]

Oh for the love of jesus. Of course I understand herd structure and the social nature of horses. It was a figure of speech. I was riding horses before I could walk. You think I don't have a clue what the social nature of horses is?

So take "violent exception" all you want (what does that MEAN anyway?) :confused: But I do NOT believe a horse is actually "crazy" and should be shot on the spot because it gets nuts when left alone. I meant that if the horse is behaving in a crazy/wild/uncontrollable/nuts/dangerous to himself and others manner, then something has to change.

[BuddyRoo]

I'm not into PP or NH, but even that said, this isn't a PP or NH issue.

Your horse is herd bound and freaks out. If you know this, then either A) work to remedy it or B) offer an alternative--like putting your horse in a stall when others are going to be leaving.

It's not her job to train your horse. I'm sorry your horse got hurt. But geesh. Not a PP issue.

[arabhorse2]

Sorry OP, but your horse 'isn't right' because he ran himself stupid, not because this woman wanted to take her own horse out to do whatever.

I don't like Parelli and his kool-aid drinking minions, but I don't see how this situation has anything whatsoever to do with NH training. What it has to do with is how your horse deals with being left alone.

Your horse's training is up to you, not someone else. I just don't get why you think she's responsible because your horse is a wing-nut if left alone. Really, I don't get the connection at all. Especially with how it's all Parelli's fault.

[Char]

I get just as irritated with "Parelli People" as the next when they do things that I perceive as obnoxious, or just plain wrong.

But I agree with the above posters. Your horse being herd-bound has NOTHING to do with Parelli. Unless she saw your horse running around like a freak and decided to wave her orange schtick at him and make it worse. That's a different story.

[greysandbays]

"My horse is a twit -- and Parelli (and his 'showmanship') is to blame."

Now THERE'S some logic that makes sense! :eek::rolleyes:

ETA: Guess you missed something along these lines someplace:
It's good horsemanship, not cult thinking, that makes horses happy citizens and safer to be around.

[BornToRide]

I don't have much opinion on this but I take violent exception to a horse not being able to be left alone being called 'crazy'. Anyone who would say this does not understand horse's social hierarchy and hard wiring. It is normal for a horse to seek and require companionship of another horse, not an indication of 'craziness'. It is their method of survival in the wild and you don't 'train' out their insinct that allows them to survive.

My horse is pastured with one other horse who calls for him incessantly when I take him out of the pasture. No one especially me considers that horse 'crazy', rather acting like a normal horse. I have been doing this for over a year and somehow he hasn't been 'trained' out of it yet.Good Lord - do you just say things to be opposite or negative?? I totally got what A2 was saying and if a horse has such attachment issues, then perhaps something else is going on emotionally with that horse that needs to be addressed??!

To the OP, I agree with others here - Parelli training has nothing to do with this situation, plus are you seriously expecting the other person not to use her horse as she wishes because your horse has attachment issues?? Wow - that's rather selfish.....

[Androcles]

and if a horse has such attachment issues, .....

He doesn't have 'such attachment' issues. It's NORMAL. That's how they're hard wired.

[Androcles]

Oh for the love of jesus. Of course I understand herd structure and the social nature of horses. It was a figure of speech. I was riding horses before I could walk. You think I don't have a clue what the social nature of horses is?


No. Not according to what you have presented as your knowledge and understanding of the situation and horses in general.

[HenryisBlaisin']

I agree with the majority here. I'm not a follower of any particular trainer, but I fail to see how any training method-natural, traditional or anywhere in between-caused the issue. Unless you and the other owner have an agreement that she is to bring your horse in when she catches hers, she is under no obligation to do so. (and I would think long and hard about asking another person (other than the BO or BM) to handle my horse in my absence, regardless of training method-who is responsible if he bolts and gets hurt or kicks that person?) Tying your horse in the paddock would have been even worse.

She has every right to come and take her horse out of the paddock to groom, ride, show, or whatever she wants to do with it-it's HER horse. I'm sure it would be nice of her to adhere to your schedule so you can be there to bring your guy in-but maybe that's not possible. It has nothing to do with Parelli or anyone else-she wants to ride her horse.

Perhaps you should add an aged giveaway pony or mini to their herd so that when one is gone, the other will still have part of the herd. Also, what if you need to take your horse off property? Will you be able to do so safely if he's as herd-bound as you say? While herd behavior is normal, you need to work on controlled separation in case a situation arises where one horse has to be removed. I don't agree that running himself lame is just something you have to live with-they can learn to handle separation better.

The fact that your horse is herd-bound isn't Pat Parelli's fault! He's being a normal horse, but there are steps you can take to correct the situation.

[Equine Studies]

This often happens when two horses turned out together-some are better being left alone than others-my two year old is fine, my other mare, not so much. Three (or more) is so much better, unless the second one can be brought into a stall or something and will be quiet eating hay in there until the other one is ready to go back out.

I have a few more months of my two being together-they aren't terrible when seperated, but I'm not pushing it much (recovering from a broken collarbone-different horse) and anything I do they aren't really out of eyesight for long. A weanling will be going out with them in a few months which will make it all easier.

Whatever training beliefs the other owner has wasn't the issue here-ignorance or inconsideration maybe, but the turnout situation needs to be improved so either one of you can take your horse out of the field whenever you want without this happening. I hope it can be easily fixed by putting another horse in with them.

[magnolia73]

Yes, a big part of the reason I don't respect Parelli is because he encourages boarders to go take their horses out of their pastures with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of making non-believers horses lame. It's right there, after carrot sticks, before rope halters.

[saultgirl]

OP, you are crazy.:eek:

[rainechyldes]

to the OP:

It's your responsibility to endure YOUR horse will be safe and injury free. Not another boarders.
If he can't run, then put your money where your mouth is- and either get him a companion, or move him someplace thats more suitable.

[Gaitingglory]

This has to be joke, right, OP?

[trubandloki]

Yes, a big part of the reason I don't respect Parelli is because he encourages boarders to go take their horses out of their pastures with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of making non-believers horses lame. It's right there, after carrot sticks, before rope halters.

:lol:

[Antaeus]

Yes, a big part of the reason I don't respect Parelli is because he encourages boarders to go take their horses out of their pastures with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of making non-believers horses lame. It's right there, after carrot sticks, before rope halters.

:):):)

I'm thinkin' PP has added an eighth Game?...;)

[magnolia73]

Yeah- you have to be at level 9 to learn it- the tip off- her fellow boarder is one of the 6 Parellites in the world that rides... so she must be up there on the ol' pyramid.

[spotmenow]

Is this thread for real???:eek: I mean, I'm no PP fan either, but its a stretch to blame him for your horse's freak out.

Obviously you need to have a talk with the BO about the turnout situation if you don't want to work on developing your own horse's confidence. I have 5 horses; they are all turned out in herds but each and every one is comfortable by him or herself, give or take an occasional whinny.

[Char]

He doesn't have 'such attachment' issues. It's NORMAL. That's how they're hard wired.

They are also 'hard wired' to run from anything other than another horse, and sometimes even then. They are 'hard wired' to get anything that gets on them the hell off.
There are lots of things in horse behaviour that horses do/don't do, tolerate/don't tolerate that we train into/out of them. You CAN train your horse not to act like an idiot if left alone for a brief, or long, period of time. It just takes effort. No one ever said that it's not NORMAL for a horse to act this way that's not trained to not do so. It was simply stated that it is the OP's problem and a lack of training that her horse was acting that way and got hurt. Not the other horse owner's.

Sheesh......I thought you knew all of this??

[rmh]

My two horses seem okay it is my mini donk that is the problem. She is really heard bound. She has been with other animals her entire life except the time I took the two horses to the vet for x-rays. I put the donk in the round pen. She wasn't dead or hurt when I got back. I have a problem teaching her very much. Donkeys don't train like horses. I have gotten her to let me trim her feet, finally. And I have begun ponying her with the ranger for exercise.

[RG Equestrian]

I don't have much opinion on this but I take violent exception to a horse not being able to be left alone being called 'crazy'. Anyone who would say this does not understand horse's social hierarchy and hard wiring. It is normal for a horse to seek and require companionship of another horse, not an indication of 'craziness'. It is their method of survival in the wild and you don't 'train' out their insinct that allows them to survive.

My horse is pastured with one other horse who calls for him incessantly when I take him out of the pasture. No one especially me considers that horse 'crazy', rather acting like a normal horse. I have been doing this for over a year and somehow he hasn't been 'trained' out of it yet.

You're right the horse is not 'crazy' but I don't think that is exactly what A2 meant. I do have to disagree with some of your statements however. If you couldn't 'train' out instincts that allowed them to survive in the wild....then none of us would be able to ride horses (except in a rodeo). The very process of training is to override certain instincts that the horse has.

As far as the OP's horse being herdbound, that is neither 'Normal' nor 'Abnormal'. By saying the behavior is 'Normal', one would find themselves to be at a dead end....with no more options available to maybe remedy the behavior. Is the behavior normal across the species? If so, then every horse should be displaying this behavior.....so obviously that is not the case.
Is this behavior normal for certain individual horses with a genetic predisposition or with particular environmental factors (grew up with a buddy and never really been alone)......yes, it would be normal for these horses to express this behavior, and in certain cases...quite difficult to override it.
In most of the instances where this behavior is expressed, the herdbound horse is really being fearful and insecure, and seeks the safety of a buddy.

This does NOT mean that this 'normal' behavior cannot be remedied as in countless cases, that is exactly what happens. As the horse gains trust, and self confidence, they start losing the fear of being alone. (different with every horse).

[RougeEmpire]

It's not the others girls problem if your horse is so nuts that its runs itself stupid to the point of lameness if SHE wants to use HER horse. Stop blaming others for your bad managment. If YOUR horse is so bad that it can not be left alone then YOU need to make other arrangments for your horses care. She can not be held repsonisble if she wants to USE her horse. If he is so bad that she can not take her HER horse out without YOUR horse running the fence line then I highly suggest your horse (the PROBLEM horse) be stalled during the day with other stabled horses. Yes that means the BM or owner has to go get him in the AM and bring him in so the other boarder can use her horse at any time. This probably means paying more for the service, but you are the one with a problem horse, not her. This issue has NOTHING to do with any kind of training style and its pathetic that you BLAME her for using her OWN horse. You need to pull your head out of your rear end and CHANGE your boarding arrangements to take RESPONSIBLITY for your horses issues. Quit blaming other people.:mad:

[Auventera Two]

No. Not according to what you have presented as your knowledge and understanding of the situation and horses in general.

Well, bless your heart! :sadsmile:

[Char]

Well, bless your heart! :sadsmile:

:lol::lol: :yes:

[egontoast]

Interesting replies.

Sure this is not about Parelli but most considerate horse people I know would have brought that horse in the barn in those circumstances, regardless of whose fault it is that he is that way.

I've got one here like that (not my horse ) and he is fine as long as he can see a horse somewhere but if it happened that all the other horses in all the other fields were coming into the barn for some reason, I'd bring him in too and the boarders are also considerate that way. it's very difficult to teach a horse not to be herdbound when they have been that way for several years. I usually try to prevent whatever injuries can be prevented and in his case bringing him in is more likely to prevent an injury.

AND If you bring the horse in BEFORE he panics you are not teaching him that if he goes nuts he'll be brought in. Leaving them out to gallop around in a panic and a lather until they get injured is not all that educational for the horse.JMHO

[Androcles]

Really? You would have brought someone else's horse into the barn without barn owner's permission, or horse owner's permission? I can see that opening up a WHOLE 'nother can of worms.

Every barn I have ever boarded at has expected the boarder removing the horse from the turnout to take responsibility - in some fashion - for the horse they leave out alone.

[Androcles]

You're right the horse is not 'crazy' but I don't think that is exactly what A2 meant.

Well maybe you're better at reading her mind than I am but that's what she said. So has another poster saying a horse is 'nuts' if it can't be left out alone.

[trubandloki]

Really? You would have brought someone else's horse into the barn without barn owner's permission, or horse owner's permission? I can see that opening up a WHOLE 'nother can of worms.

Yeah, I am with you on that one.

The situation has always been that with out actual permission you do not touch another person's horse.

[Ambrey]

Every barn I have ever boarded at has expected the boarder removing the horse from the turnout to take responsibility - in some fashion - for the horse they leave out alone.

Seriously? So if I boarded at a place with turnout I'd be responsible for handling other people's horses?

Weird.

I'd think if my horse couldn't handle being out alone, it would be my responsibility to set it up such that he wasn't.

[Saidapal]

So, am I to assume by the original post that if a card carrying Parelli hater had chosen to ride her horse and left yours alone to run the fence line it would have been okay?

[HenryisBlaisin']

I agree-what if your horse, being brought in by another boarder, bolts, slips, and suffers a life-threatening injury-who's responsible for that? What if he rears and strikes that person in the head, severely injuring her-who pays her medical bills? OR the horse runs away and gets lost, or the handler gets dragged, etc., etc. There are so many things that could go wrong! Without an explicit, written agreement covering this, it's asking for trouble.

As an owner, you are ultimately responsible for your horse's well being. It is up to you, not Pat Parelli, to make safer arrangements for his care-get him another companion, ask that he be turned out alone, move him to a different barn where he's turned out with a larger herd. But don't balme a trainer who has never set eyes on you or your horse for your problems.

[Auventera Two]

I've boarded at a lot of places, and it was never my responsibility or "right" to move someone else's horse around as I saw fit unless I was told to do so. I would not want that responsibility. What if he went nuts in the stall and hurt himself even worse? Or what if he chewed up the stall boards while I was out riding for 3 hours? Or pawed a 2 foot deep hole in the stall? That's just not a situation I'd want to put myself in.

My new guy had to learn that horses come and horses go and that's just the way it is. The first few times I took one of his mares out to ride, he called and trot the fence a little bit, but it only took a week or so for him to learn that yeah they leave, but they do come back and it really isn't a big deal. Horses have instincts but they're also pretty smart and can be trained to tolerate many things.

Riding a horse goes against their very DNA - as Char said - their instinct tells them to get that thing the hell off their back NOW. But we have trained them to tolerate it. They can also be trained to tolerate isolation while their buddy goes out for a ride.

[saje]

If the OP has at some point mentioned to the Parelli person that her recently healed horse was a bit herdbound, and asked Ms Parelli Person to not leave him alone in his field, and Ms PP agreed to bring both horses in, then she might have a reason to be PO'ed.

BUT - that has zippo to do with Parelli cultism or any other training, and everything to do with laziness, inattention, or miscommunication, and the fact that horses will be horses and WILL find a way to injure themselves.

It sucks, but it's what sometimes happens w/ horses in a boarding facility.

[dilligaff2]

Yeah- you have to be at level 9 to learn it- the tip off- her fellow boarder is one of the 6 Parellites in the world that rides... so she must be up there on the ol' pyramid.


:lol: :D :lol: :D :lol:

[Kitari]

wow to the first op

"My horse is herd bound and its the parrelites fault!"

:lol:


and again wow to the person who talks about every barn she was at usually had boarders do something with the lone horse. I would be pissed if I found someone handling my mare if she were the last one left in the pasture, whether to bring her in or not, I expect her to deal with it. And since my mare is now often the lone pony in the pasture when Im riding Red she often takes the time to sweet talk to the boys across the street with the baby's oh so sensitive self away. Since I got Red she hasnt sweet talked to the geldings unless I take Red out for a ride. :lol: kind of like the parent who cover's their kids ears to say a dirty word. :lol:

[Androcles]

I have several horse owners would would be IRATE if their horses were handled by someone they didn't know. And not all of my boarders know each other. One woman in particular is very picky about who handles her horse. She would be quite angry.

Unless there is an arrangement in place BEFORE this happens, taking a horse who is not yours and moving it to a place you haven't been told to put it is just asking for trouble.

I did say responsibility in some fashion which doesn't necessarily mean that they physically remove the horse although that is a possibility depending on what has been agreed upon. One place did expect me to bring in the other horse and put it in its stall because there weren't enough workers there. Another possibility might be alerting the management that you have left a horse out alone. Unless you were clueless and didn't realize there was another horse in the turnout with your horse to begin with, which seems pretty amazing to me. A boarder that doesn't know who/if her horse goes out with?

[SonnysMom]

I will admit that I have not read all of the posts but any barn I was at you didn't just leave one horse alone in the field when you got yours unless you knew it was not a problem.
We normally either brought the horse in to be with other horses, checked with the BO/BM to see where they wanted the horse such as a field next to other horses or left the horse in the field while you are in earshot but go pull him if he starts to be a jerk.
It would never occur to me to just leave a horse alone in the field when no other horse is in sight unless I knew that particular horse could handle it. Some just can't.
Some boarding situations also really don't lend themselves to training your horse to be okay alone.
Plenty of horses are okay to be in the barn alone but with a human but not okay alone in a field by themselves. I also know of horses that are okay if you turn him out alone but god forbid you remove his only buddy and leave him alone.
I think it was rude of the other boarding to ignore a running horse but it has nothing to do with Parelli.

[MsM]

"Ain't nothin' common about common sense!"

I have always had to board my horses. At every stable both the BO and I figured out what to do about the turn-out situation. Usually there were other horses in sight, so I did not need to do anything unless a horse started to become frantic. Then I would tell whoever was at the barn that so-and-so's horse was acting up. There was a time when my horse and another were in side by side paddocks with no others nearby. I could get the barn staff to take in the other horse, since we knew he would be upset if left. I also had permission from the horse owner to take him in first, since mine understood that I was coming to get him and wouldnt get upset. Likewise, the other horse owner could bring mine in if she wanted to take her horse out.
I just can't imagine having your horse in an only-one-buddy situation and not planning ahead! :confused:

[Huntertwo]

If she wants to go riding, that is HER perogative. It is also not her responsibility to bring your horse in.

Wow, you are barking way up the wrong tree here. :eek:

Plus, what difference does it make if she is a fan of Parrelli??

[Huntertwo]

Every barn I have ever boarded at has expected the boarder removing the horse from the turnout to take responsibility - in some fashion - for the horse they leave out alone.

I've boarded all my life and have never encountered that. Many times I was pressed for time, never mind bringing in TWO horses, never mind making sure the stalled horse had water and if he didn't I would have to fill a bucket a carry it to the stalled horse.

Plus, I've dealt with horses that were rude and unruly. Not a horse I want to be bringing in and out. Not about to get hurt over someone else's horse. Nope, not gonna happen.

Now get my own horse ready to ride, and when done with riding, reverse the whole process all over again? I don't think so.

It should be up to the BO/BM to see that horses that are pastured have a buddy at all times, (if needed). Not my responsibility.

[tabula rashah]

Because she has gulped the Kool-Aid that that showman (notice I didn't say 'horseman') Parelli offers to every sucker out there who wants badly, so badly, to be 'one with the horse,' b/c of their own lonely spirit. And now my horse is not right b/c of her. She claimed she didn't know he was out there, even though his leadrope was tied to the fence... right next to her horse's leadrope.

.

Geesh you people... I figured it out right away- Parelli-girl drank the Kool-Aid, it made her blind, she didn't see OP's horses' rope and didn't bring him in.... not that hard to piece together LMAO!:lol:

[GettingBack]

Every barn I have ever boarded at has expected the boarder removing the horse from the turnout to take responsibility - in some fashion - for the horse they leave out alone.

I can see alerting someone, but no - how is that covered under liability? I wouldn't want to be handling another boarder's horse without permission - no way no how.

[arabhorse2]

Geesh you people... I figured it out right away- Parelli-girl drank the Kool-Aid, it made her blind, she didn't see OP's horses' rope and didn't bring him in.... not that hard to piece together LMAO!:lol:

Tabula, the reason she didn't see it was because it wasn't a speshul, flickitatin' twirly rope. It was just a regular leadrope, so something like that is invisible to PP minions. ;)

Also have to agree with the folks that say it's a huge liability to touch anyone's horse but their own. I might have alerted the BO/BM if I saw a horse acting like a lunatic, but I sure wouldn't have laid a hand on it.

[Androcles]

I might have alerted the BO/BM if I saw a horse acting like a lunatic,
You might have? Or not?

[LuvMyTB]

What a bizarre post. :rolleyes:

At my old barn, there was lots of group turnout, and some horses were turned out 2 by 2. If you wanted to ride--you went and got your horse and rode. IF we had been required to "do something" about the horse left alone--all that would've meant was taking said horse and putting it in the barn by itself. How is that better than being in a pasture by itself?

[Equine Studies]

If there is barn staff there all the time, maybe they could put your horse inside when the other boarder brings her horse out of the field......if there is no barn staff there, that is not likely an option-since you seem to hate Parelli so much, I don't imagine you would appreciate her handling your horse-so options are limited.

I boarded at a place where I brought my mare's turnout friend in when I rode (she had 2 others at the beginning but they were geriatric and eventually died). Keep in mind I also worked there and so it was OK. If it were some other boarder who didn't work there it would not have gone over well, especially if anything had happened to the horse on the way in. Definitely wouldn't have been appreciated at any other place I've ever boarded at either unless the owners were friends of mine, or they or the barn staff asked for my help. I wouldn't take a chance on it anyway if I didn't know the person well.

I have boarded at many places where horses run around like maniacs when their friend leaves and people think it's funny (where I board now is a prime example). Some people just don't get that horses can get hurt doing it. I hope you can make arrangements that work for you and avoid another stifle problem.

[dalpal]

A Parelli person the other day left my horse alone in the pasture when she took her horse out of it to go riding. The surrounding pastures were empty, and as she well knows -- these 2 horses have been pastured together for several months -- my horse takes exception to being alone in the pasture.

So, he ran the fenceline -- a lot -- and has, because of that carelessness -- made his fragile stifle sore again. Because of her. Because she has gulped the Kool-Aid that that showman (notice I didn't say 'horseman') Parelli offers to every sucker out there who wants badly, so badly, to be 'one with the horse,' b/c of their own lonely spirit. And now my horse is not right b/c of her. She claimed she didn't know he was out there, even though his leadrope was tied to the fence... right next to her horse's leadrope.

And then later this week, I saw an e/mail from a group trying to adopt out horses -- many offered with 'Parelli' as part of their skills -- yet these horses are not finding homes, it seems. Because these horses are trained in a special 'speak,' and not in common, basic horsemanship that is available to anyone who respects the horse and cares enough for him to socialize him so that anyone can handle him sufficiently, and horse and human understand each other.

What is the creeping virus that is coming along, this cult, that victimizes horses and promises that people can do sparkly hoops and twirly ropes, that witholding water and food are all OK, and they, wink wink, don't have to pay homage to the thousands of years of horsemanship that has shaped mainstream horsemanship?

Say all you want that natural horsemanship fixed your horse's problems. As far as I'm concerned, good horsemanship, in which the horse's long-term wellbeing and health are central, fixes 90% of any 'problem.' It's good horsemanship, not cult thinking, that makes horses happy citizens and safer to be around. Read the old masters, from Xenophon on (or even older), and they just used respect, thoughtfulness, and a genuine caring to 'train' their mounts.

I'm not against the real horsemen, like Ray Hunt and John Lyons, but I can name lots and lots of trainers of the sport-horse disciplines who think like a horse, genuinely respect him, accommodate personality and temperment, and don't make the horse a trick-doer so that they feel that they can have a mystical bond and no responsibility.


Okay...let me start this off with I'm not into Parelli....

BUT OMG, this is Parelli's fault??? :confused: This girl isn't supposed to get her horse out of the pasture to ride because it inconvinces your horse? Do you realize how silly this sounds? What if the roles were reversed....are you a crazy, "drank the koolaid" english person because you came to ride your horse???

Dear lord folks, does anyone take responsiblity anymore or is it always someone else's fault. :confused:

[dalpal]

Yes, a big part of the reason I don't respect Parelli is because he encourages boarders to go take their horses out of their pastures with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of making non-believers horses lame. It's right there, after carrot sticks, before rope halters.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[arabhorse2]

You might have? Or not?

Gawd, who pissed in your Wheaties? :rolleyes:

Would it get you off your bitch rant if I say I DEFINITELY would tell someone? If you had read and comprehended my sentence in its entirety, you may have actually understood what I was saying.

I don't board Androcles; my horses are at home with me. Does it make you feel better to know that my neighbor's pony got out (again) and I lured the little beast into my own paddock on the off chance he might get hit by a vehicle?

EVERY place I boarded before I brought the horses home was a strictly hands-off approach to someone else's horse. I have no idea where you got this idea that it's somehow the other boarders' responsibility to handle horses that don't belong to them. Probably from a lazy-ass BO, or someone who couldn't keep help.

[dalpal]

Really? You would have brought someone else's horse into the barn without barn owner's permission, or horse owner's permission? I can see that opening up a WHOLE 'nother can of worms.

Yep...and for all we know these horses are pasture boarded.

[dalpal]

Every barn I have ever boarded at has expected the boarder removing the horse from the turnout to take responsibility - in some fashion - for the horse they leave out alone.

That's ridiculous. That is the barn's staff's job...not a boarder's job. Some of us don't have time to take care of others horses. And if the horse had hurt himself in the stall, then it would have been Parelli's fault because his follower felt impowered to mess with someone's horse.

[katarine]

never seen such a policy- boarded at, and worked at, a number of barns.

If an owner has a horse with 'special needs' and yes, I think babysitting a horse is special needs, that's for the owner, and BO/BM to figure out. I have three horses at home. Sometimes I take two away. The leftover hollers about 10 minutes, max, then quits. The more the horses get moved and shuffled, the sooner they learn the world is not going to end, that the leavers will be comers, here in a little while.

[Rick Burten]

I don't board Androcles;
I'll sleep better tonight for knowing that. :winkgrin:

[Rick Burten]

After I got done ROTFLMAO after reading the OP, I thought to myself, what a perfect example of a fluff bunny suffering from TSS(Terminal Stable Stupidity). Then I laughed some more.

[egontoast]

Really? You would have brought someone else's horse into the barn without barn owner's permission, or horse owner's permission? I can see that opening up a WHOLE 'nother can of worms.


Well, I'm the Barn owner so it's not a problem for me to bring horses in if I think they may get themselves injured but all the boarders here know that it is Ok/encouraged to look out for all the horses and chip in and help out when needed. I've had boarders bring all the horses in when the weather turned bad suddenly and I wasn't there. I appreciate it.

I guess every barn has a 'culture' and you try to find the one that you are comfortable with when you look for a boarding place.

[Androcles]

That's ridiculous. That is the barn's staff's job...not a boarder's job. Some of us don't have time to take care of others horses. And if the horse had hurt himself in the stall, then it would have been Parelli's fault because his follower felt impowered to mess with someone's horse.

I'm not endorsing it. Just sharing experiences of what different barns are like. Honestly, I didn't appreciate it one bit. But these BO's were the laziest unaccountable slobs I'd ever seen around horses.

[cyberbay]

Well, time to clarify, for all you non-readers (reply got lost in ether, so this is a summary):

--This boarder knew VERY, VERY well my horse didn't like to be alone. Staff, other owners etc., are all comfortable with the turnout my horse has with the 2 others that are normally with him.
--On the day in question, the 3rd horse was not turned out at the time. This pasture is the farthest from the barn, and as it happened that day, the other surrounding pastures were mostly empty.
--I never said it was this boarder's personal responsibility to literally handle my horse.
--Many, many horses do not like to be alone.
--I never said my horse was herdbound. He doesn't like to be out in the field with no one else around. He will stand in the barn totally alone until forever. Herdbound?
--Parelli is involved in this b/c imo he offers a fantasy-based horse class. This woman chose to do this Parelli path because why? So she could take a short cut to the summit of horsemanship and run with the big dogs? Instead of taking her available horse hours to learn horsemanship, barn management, horse care from the very best and well-known (not always 1 and same, I realize, but many are 1 and same) horsepeople, she instead chose to be sitting in the stands watching rope twirling and how to manipulate a horse by withholding water and feed. So, yes, Parelli does have a lot to do with it, because he heavily, heavily implies that you do my ropes and hoops, and it's all you need to know about horses. There was no encouragement to get practical experience by being around good horsepeople, which, imo, is one of the best routes to being safe and successful with horses.

By the way, no one else can halter this boarder's Parelli horse; he spooks at only things he sees; he flies off the x-ties; dumps his saddle. It's a show. I honestly don't think she 'gets' her horse, but if he backs away from the swirly rope, that's SUCCESS!!

My point is that because she chose to put her available learning time into sitting in the stands, instead of doing reality-based horsemanship by learning at or boarding at and hanging around a quality barn (doesn't have to be a lot of $) to absorb how barns are managed, how horses are cared for, psychology of horses, what is the mainstream 'culture' of horses, not this sideshow of Parelli, she would have known how to handle the situation of a horse being left alone in a pasture. (She has boarded in the area and she is not a total neophyte) With the above-mentioned exposures, she would have known horses run; she would have known that horses can get hurt. If she rode her horse, she would have known what an investment training can be (not saying riding is the only thing that counts, but her tiny world of experience, kept that way by Parelli-style mantras, stayed small). She would have known the horse-based and common-sense-based technique (which many posters have alluded to) to alert the staff and to have them help bring in my horse while she was bringing in hers. But, Parelli doesn't teach that; this is found in well-run barns in which management (most of the staff educated and experienced sans Parelli) makes the wellbeing of the horse paramount and doesn't DREAM of letting a horse run nor would they engage in ANY behavior that jeopardizes the long-term wellbeing of the horses and/or the people.

Got PM'd by someone. He told me his horse was left to pace the fence on a hot day by Parelli people who had brought in their horses. His horse heat-stroked. They left that horse out to 'teach' it not to be 'herd-bound.'

This has nothing to do with my horse being supposedly "herd-bound, and he should get over it..." and "who am I to not allow her to ride her horse..." and everything to do with a person who wanted a system to give her a sense that she would have all the answers always. And there was the Parelli system, a system that makes participants feel it's the one and only way and seems to discourage other, reality-based experiences. Many signs indicate she knows very little outside of Parelli, given the continuing antics of her horse, the poor riding, and the now-predictable and endless references to her Parelli experiences.

Does this cast any clarity on my original post? You may not agree, but that's OK.

[JB]

Dear lord folks, does anyone take responsiblity anymore or is it always someone else's fault. :confused:
Take a look around - the whole world is someone else's fault these days :( :no: It doesn't matter what you're talking about, nobody is willing to take personal responsibility for ANYthing these days. Been steadily going downhill for years now, at an ever-increasing rate of speed :mad:

[JB]

Well, time to clarify, for all you non-readers (reply got lost in ether, so this is a summary):
I read it quite thoroughly and with understanding, so we'll see ;)

--This boarder knew VERY, VERY well my horse didn't like to be alone. Staff, other owners etc., are all comfortable with the turnout my horse has with the 2 others that are normally with him.
And this has anything to do with Parelli....how?

--On the day in question, the 3rd horse was not turned out at the time. This pasture is the farthest from the barn, and as it happened that day, the other surrounding pastures were mostly empty.
And this has anything to do with Parelli....how?

--I never said it was this boarder's personal responsibility to literally handle my horse.
--Many, many horses do not like to be alone.
--I never said my horse was herdbound. He doesn't like to be out in the field with no one else around. He will stand in the barn totally alone until forever. Herdbound?
And this has anything to do with Parelli....how?

--Parelli is involved in this b/c imo he offers a fantasy-based horse class. This woman chose to do this Parelli path because why? So she could take a short cut to the summit of horsemanship and run with the big dogs? Instead of taking her available horse hours to learn horsemanship, barn management, horse care from the very best and well-known (not always 1 and same, I realize, but many are 1 and same) horsepeople, she instead chose to be sitting in the stands watching rope twirling and how to manipulate a horse by withholding water and feed. So, yes, Parelli does have a lot to do with it, because he heavily, heavily implies that you do my ropes and hoops, and it's all you need to know about horses. There was no encouragement to get practical experience by being around good horsepeople, which, imo, is one of the best routes to being safe and successful with horses.
Trust me, Parelli doesn't have the market corned on anyone miscontruing ideas and techniques to suit their own personal "it's all about me" world. There are a whole gaggle of horse people out there who have blinders on regarding what is going on around them in their stall, their barn, the pastures. Would you have come here with this post if this person had not been a Parelli follower? From how you have worded everything, I doubt it.

By the way, no one else can halter this boarder's Parelli horse; he spooks at only things he sees; he flies off the x-ties; dumps his saddle. It's a show. I honestly don't think she 'gets' her horse, but if he backs away from the swirly rope, that's SUCCESS!!
And that's related to your pasture issue how?

My point is that because she chose to put her available learning time into sitting in the stands, instead of doing reality-based horsemanship by learning at or boarding at and hanging around a quality barn (doesn't have to be a lot of $) to absorb how barns are managed, how horses are cared for, psychology of horses, what is the mainstream 'culture' of horses, not this sideshow of Parelli, she would have known how to handle the situation of a horse being left alone in a pasture.
Oh really? So ANY barn she might have chosen to hang around would have taught her that? Gee, let's see, not my quality barn - horses were turned out in groups of quite a few - 2-3 gelding groups, 1 mare group. Any board could come get their horse out of the group and ride, leaving at least 2, always, out there together. There was never a situation existing there where only 2 horses were turned out and only one had to be brought in. Was my barn not quality because the situation didn't exist?

And you REALLY think that enough barns teach anything about horse psychology? If that were the case, why are there so many threads on these forums about training, where horses are being cranked and yanked because that's how the riders were taught?

(She has boarded in the area and she is not a total neophyte) With the above-mentioned exposures, she would have known horses run; she would have known that horses can get hurt.
By that logic, horses who like to play with each other just shouldn't be turned out.

If she rode her horse, she would have known what an investment training can be (not saying riding is the only thing that counts, but her tiny world of experience, kept that way by Parelli-style mantras, stayed small).
You originally said she got her horse out of the pasture to *ride*

She would have known the horse-based and common-sense-based technique (which many posters have alluded to) to alert the staff and to have them help bring in my horse while she was bringing in hers.
And that's related to Parelli how?

But, Parelli doesn't teach that;
Like ALL barns teach that? There are entire barns with 100's of horses in California where horses are not turned out unless an owner puts them in a pen - by themselves.

this is found in well-run barns in which management (most of the staff educated and experienced sans Parelli) makes the wellbeing of the horse paramount and doesn't DREAM of letting a horse run nor would they engage in ANY behavior that jeopardizes the long-term wellbeing of the horses and/or the people.
OMG, there are barns that let horses *gasp* RUN??!! Remind me to stay away from them! :rolleyes:

Got PM'd by someone. He told me his horse was left to pace the fence on a hot day by Parelli people who had brought in their horses. His horse heat-stroked. They left that horse out to 'teach' it not to be 'herd-bound.'
You are like so many NH/PNH haters who cannot separate the message from the messenger.

This has nothing to do with my horse being supposedly "herd-bound, and he should get over it..." and "who am I to not allow her to ride her horse..." and everything to do with a person who wanted a system to give her a sense that she would have all the answers always. And there was the Parelli system, a system that makes participants feel it's the one and only way and seems to discourage other, reality-based experiences. Many signs indicate she knows very little outside of Parelli, given the continuing antics of her horse, the poor riding, and the now-predictable and endless references to her Parelli experiences.

Does this cast any clarity on my original post? You may not agree, but that's OK.
No, it did not clarify your original post, it only made it make more sense. It was about an unthoughtful, blind, in her own world border who either didn't know what to do, or thought she was doing the right thing "for the horse". Thousands of people in boarding situations do stupid or thoughtless things every day, either because they are just ignorant (and often very sorry for not having known after the fact), or because they thought they were doing right (and often are sorry for learning otherwise after the fact) or who are just oblivious. It just so happens YOUR experience with this person is majorly tainted because she is looking at a training method that you don't like.

[Coppers mom]

I don't know about you guys, but I needed a little funny in my day. OP's second post did just that :lol:

[Ghazzu]

Yes, a big part of the reason I don't respect Parelli is because he encourages boarders to go take their horses out of their pastures with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of making non-believers horses lame. It's right there, after carrot sticks, before rope halters.

That's right.
People often forget that the very first game is the Lonely Game.

Though there are many reasons one can find fault with PP and his acolytes, this situation ain't one of 'em.

[Guilherme]

After I got done ROTFLMAO after reading the OP, I thought to myself, what a perfect example of a fluff bunny suffering from TSS(Terminal Stable Stupidity). Then I laughed some more.

+1.

G.

[Ghazzu]

Well, time to clarify, for all you non-readers (reply got lost in ether, so this is a summary):

--This boarder knew VERY, VERY well my horse didn't like to be alone...
--I never said my horse was herdbound. He doesn't like to be out in the field with no one else around...


Oookay.


--Parelli is involved in this b/c imo he offers a fantasy-based horse class. This woman chose to do this Parelli path because why? So she could take a short cut to the summit of horsemanship and run with the big dogs? Instead of taking her available horse hours to learn horsemanship, barn management, horse care from the very best and well-known (not always 1 and same, I realize, but many are 1 and same) horsepeople, she instead chose to be sitting in the stands watching rope twirling and how to manipulate a horse by withholding water and feed. So, yes, Parelli does have a lot to do with it, because he heavily, heavily implies that you do my ropes and hoops, and it's all you need to know about horses. There was no encouragement to get practical experience by being around good horsepeople, which, imo, is one of the best routes to being safe and successful with horses...

My point is that because she chose to put her available learning time into sitting in the stands, instead of doing reality-based horsemanship

Somehow, I get the impression that you are not as grounded in reality as you think you are.


by learning at or boarding at and hanging around a quality barn (doesn't have to be a lot of $) to absorb how barns are managed, how horses are cared for, psychology of horses, what is the mainstream 'culture' of horses, not this sideshow of Parelli, she would have known how to handle the situation of a horse being left alone in a pasture. (She has boarded in the area and she is not a total neophyte) With the above-mentioned exposures, she would have known horses run; she would have known that horses can get hurt. If she rode her horse, she would have known what an investment training can be (not saying riding is the only thing that counts, but her tiny world of experience, kept that way by Parelli-style mantras, stayed small). She would have known the horse-based and common-sense-based technique (which many posters have alluded to) to alert the staff and to have them help bring in my horse while she was bringing in hers. But, Parelli doesn't teach that; this is found in well-run barns in which management (most of the staff educated and experienced sans Parelli) makes the wellbeing of the horse paramount and doesn't DREAM of letting a horse run nor would they engage in ANY behavior that jeopardizes the long-term wellbeing of the horses and/or the people.

Got PM'd by someone. He told me his horse was left to pace the fence on a hot day by Parelli people who had brought in their horses. His horse heat-stroked. They left that horse out to 'teach' it not to be 'herd-bound.'

This has nothing to do with my horse being supposedly "herd-bound, and he should get over it..." and "who am I to not allow her to ride her horse..." and everything to do with a person who wanted a system to give her a sense that she would have all the answers always. And there was the Parelli system, a system that makes participants feel it's the one and only way and seems to discourage other, reality-based experiences. Many signs indicate she knows very little outside of Parelli, given the continuing antics of her horse, the poor riding, and the now-predictable and endless references to her Parelli experiences.

Does this cast any clarity on my original post? You may not agree, but that's OK.


Any small shred of sympathy I might have harbored for you is gone.

I think Parelli and minions are, at best, silly.

However, last time I looked, it was still a free country, and people have the bloody right to spend their leisure time and their hard earned cash however they damnwellplease.

Would you have felt differently if this boarder had been attending Centered Riding clinics?
I doubt it.

You really are a piece of work.

[foundationmare]

I'm in a rural area, near a TB racetrack, and board my horses at a farm about a mile from my house. This is not a showing barn or even a riding barn, but caters to mostly former or incipient racehorses. There are acres and acres of land for riding however. The farm is owned buy a young couple who work long hours and are not greatly experienced in horsemanship but LOVE their boarders' horses. It's not an ideal situation (not enough paddocks, not enough grass IN the paddocks) but I wouldn't trade any of that for the drama that exists in so many boarding situations.

We are a rag-tag bunch of racetrackers (for the most part) who look out for each other and for each others' horses. We are small enough to recognize that Daisy can't be brought in if Rose will not have another horse with her. Our mare and foal team are best kept together in turnout because someone will be upset if the other is brought into the barn. It doesn't always work out that way, but we are cognizant of our actions and how they will affect others. If I knew that ANY horse would be lathered up because he/she was upset by being alone...especially in the heat of summer...I would alter my plans or alert the owner.

Granted, we're not pulling horses out of the barn to go to a show or whatever, but we are a cohesive unit and work well together. I've been aware for a long, long time how special this is (and I'm knocking on wood as I type this...)! Our bottom line is the care and comfort of our horses.

[Gray Horse H/J]

--On the day in question, the 3rd horse was not turned out at the time. This pasture is the farthest from the barn, and as it happened that day, the other surrounding pastures were mostly empty.

Maybe the lady didn't know the 3rd horse wasn't turned out?

I still fail to see what any of this has to do with PP.

[Ambrey]

I still can't even figure out how it's the other boarder's fault, much less how Parelli got in the mix. I must really be clueless about turnout etiquette too.

[cyberbay]

Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But remember that with freedom comes responsibility. 'Freedom' doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'

Silly is OK, until that 'silly' neighbor of yours backs his car over your child. At some point, silly is no longer harmless. And I think this boarder in the OP wasn't silly, but a grown woman who chose to renege on her common sense and responsibility toward others. You may not see it that way, but it wasn't just a simple error. She had the facts to deal with and made a choice that hurt my horse.

No, a centered riding person probably would have had a broader mentality than what I've witnessed with Parelli. Most likely they would have the common sense and manners to, at minimum, ask about how to handle the horse left out alone...

JB, those clarifications were to clarify some posts that had some confusion. Hope that's OK with you? They aren't statements that needed independent comment, as you've done ... but thanks and you're right, they had nothing "to do with Parelli."

[NRB]

another one who feels that there is no link between "horse left in pasture alone" and "Parelli" I vote that the OP is off her/his rocker and/or a few short of a six pack.

[magnolia73]

I think protocol on horses running, bringing in lonely horses etc. etc. vary per barn. Trust me, if your horse was turned out with mine, I would not walk back to bring him into the barn. I have no love for Parelli. I just have enough to worry about without remembering details about the likes and dislikes of all the others boarders horses.

[Ambrey]

Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But remember that with freedom comes responsibility. 'Freedom' doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'

Um, but nobody hurt your horse. Your horse hurt himself, and the vast majority of us still don't see the problem with what the other boarder did (taking her own horse out).

So... seriously, where's the link here? What was the other boarder SUPPOSED to do?

[jaimebaker]

Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But that doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'




Maybe she lacks common sense, period. Maybe it wouldn't matter who she 'followed'. Maybe she just doesn't give a crap about someone else's horse. Is she supposed to? Is that written in the boarding contract?? Are the rules of the barn that you can't take your own horse out?? Maybe you should go buy your own property so you don't have to put up with anyone else who doesn't put your horses concerns before their own. Imagine.

I find the whole situation laughable (not that your horse is hurt but that you somehow thinks this has a damn thing to do with Parelli). Maybe your horse should be kept stalled in the day and out at night when no one will come take their horses riding. At the end of the day, YOU, that's right YOU are responsible for your horse's well being. Not somebody else. Not another boarder and not a BO.

[MintHillFarm]

I would be very angry too if a boarder whose horse shared my field was not paying attention and removed her horse with mine left behind to run the fence line...If the horse is not good alone, there should be a policy in place for the boarders to cope with this type of turnout situation and bring the horse into a stall.

However, that being said, what is the barn policy on this or is there any? Would another boarder be able to safely bring your horse into the barn? Is he reasonable to lead in? These are just some of the questions to be asked of the barn manager. Maybe going forward, you can simply ask that your horse not be left alone.

[MintHillFarm]

"My horse is pastured with one other horse who calls for him incessantly when I take him out of the pasture. No one especially me considers that horse 'crazy', rather acting like a normal horse. I have been doing this for over a year and somehow he hasn't been 'trained' out of it yet."

As the above quote from another poster states, I am in the same situation...My 2 have been pasturemates for 16 yrs and they are glued to the hip. They are retired now but still make it known that they are not happy when the other is taken out of their paddock...no amount of training will fix that.

[Ghazzu]

Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But remember that with freedom comes responsibility. 'Freedom' doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'

Silly is OK, until that 'silly' neighbor of yours backs his car over your child. At some point, silly is no longer harmless. And I think this boarder in the OP wasn't silly, but a grown woman who chose to renege on her common sense and responsibility toward others. You may not see it that way, but it wasn't just a simple error. She had the facts to deal with and made a choice that hurt my horse.

No, a centered riding person probably would have had a broader mentality than what I've witnessed with Parelli. Most likely they would have the common sense and manners to, at minimum, ask about how to handle the horse left out alone...

JB, those clarifications were to clarify some posts that had some confusion. Hope that's OK with you? They aren't statements that needed independent comment, as you've done ... but thanks and you're right, they had nothing "to do with Parelli."

Seriously.
Back away from the keyboard here.
You. Need. Help.

Equating attending Parelli rallies to vehicular manslaughter is a Real Leap.

[HenryisBlaisin']

Methinks the other rider in question isn't the selfish one who thinks of nobody but herself...

SHAME on her! How DARE she take her horse out of the OP's horse's paddock and upset his comfort and convenience for the purpose of bonding with her OWN horse! How dare Parelli suggest that horse owners spend time with their horses!

The bottom line is, your own horse is your responsibility. If you don't like the current situation where the person likes to visit or ride her own horse, talk to your BO and work out one that works better for you. Don't blame the person who wants to spend time with her own horse when it's convenient for here!

And a horse that runs itself lame when its companion is taken out of the paddock=HERDBOUND.

[cyberbay]

For you, Ambrey, I'll reply to what she was SUPPOSED to do:
She should have noted that my horse was going to be alone in the pasture by removing her horse. As anyone educated in horse care/management would know, the thing to do is (as I described in another post) is for her to have noted this and then turn to barn staff and say, "I need to bring in my horse, and that means the other horse, that doesn't like to be alone, will need to be brought in." The two of them go down to the pasture and bring in the 2 horses.

JaimeB- I totally disagree that my horse 'hurt himself.' No, he was put in a situation by a human -- who knew better -- that overfaced him. It was a situation that is totally easy to manage -- just have him brought in by the barn staff. This is a perfectly routine thing to do. Would you say that a child 'hurt himself' when you give him a glass bottle to play with on a cement sidewalk? It would be his fault if he smacked it and was left with glass shards in his hand, cutting him badly?

As I've noted again and again, it's totally fine for her to take her horse out -- how did you ever conclude I would think otherwise -- but, yes, you and I'll have to disagree: she has a responsibility to act responsibly in the barn. Just as you have to act in ANY situation in life. Her horse's wellbeing didn't come behind my horse's... where has this been said?

I also disagree that if the BO has agreed to the needs of a horse, the BO has to fulfill them. They are acting in the place of the owner. If the BO can't meet those needs, it needs to be discussed, and maybe the horse will be better served at a more professional place.

And for the millionth time, I involve parelli in this b/c his system encourages fantasy thinking and not an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses at a particular barn -- this is an incorrect approach b/c it jeopardizes safety and wellbeing. He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, and instead of asking them to look to common sense and to understand their motives, to be healthy, he's telling them that they'll get the light and love if they just stick with him.

Lots of PMs have come in -- I was surprised -- to shake their head at her lack of basic horsemanship and sense of responsibility.

[Coppers mom]

For you, Ambrey, I'll reply to what she was SUPPOSED to do:
She should have noted that my horse was going to be alone in the pasture by removing her horse. As anyone educated in horse care/management would know, the thing to do is (as I described in another post) is for her to have noted this and then turn to barn staff and say, "I need to bring in my horse, and that means the other horse, that doesn't like to be alone, will need to be brought in." The two of them go down to the pasture and bring in the 2 horses.

JaimeB- I totally disagree that my horse 'hurt himself.' No, he was put in a situation by a human -- who knew better -- that overfaced him. It was a situation that is totally easy to manage -- just have him brought in by the barn staff. This is a perfectly routine thing to do. Would you say that a child 'hurt himself' when you give him a glass bottle to play with on a cement sidewalk? It would be his fault if he smacked it and was left with glass shards in his hand, cutting him badly?

As I've noted again and again, it's totally fine for her to take her horse out -- how did you ever conclude I would think otherwise -- but, yes, you and I'll have to disagree: she has a responsibility to act responsibly in the barn. Just as you have to act in ANY situation in life. Her horse's wellbeing didn't come behind my horse's... where has this been said?

I also disagree that if the BO has agreed to the needs of a horse, the BO has to fulfill them. They are acting in the place of the owner. If the BO can't meet those needs, it needs to be discussed, and maybe the horse will be better served at a more professional place.

And for the millionth time, I involve parelli in this b/c his system encourages fantasy thinking and not an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses at a particular barn -- this is an incorrect approach b/c it jeopardizes safety and wellbeing. He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, and instead of asking them to look to common sense and to understand their motives, to be healthy, he's telling them that they'll get the light and love if they just stick with him.

Lots of PMs have come in -- I was surprised -- to shake their head at her lack of basic horsemanship and sense of responsibility.

Wow, this really is crazy. :eek:

It is not her responsibility to take care of your horse. He's YOURS. It's YOUR job to make sure he's in an environment where he's safe. If the barn staff won't bring him in, then it's your responsibility to move him to somewhere where the workers will.

If anything, it's your own fault for having a herdbound (yes, acting like that when left alone is what is generally considered herdbound) horse and putting him where he won't be properly managed, and the staffs fault for not taking proper care of him, not the fellow boarder or PP.

[besttwtbever]

For you, Ambrey, I'll reply to what she was SUPPOSED to do:
She should have noted that my horse was going to be alone in the pasture by removing her horse. As anyone educated in horse care/management would know, the thing to do is (as I described in another post) is for her to have noted this and then turn to barn staff and say, "I need to bring in my horse, and that means the other horse, that doesn't like to be alone, will need to be brought in." The two of them go down to the pasture and bring in the 2 horses.

Oh no! I must be a PP or NH follower.:lol::rolleyes: My horses like to think they are joined at the hip and I leave one of them out in the pasture while I ride the other one, even when there are no other horses out there... gasp! The one that was left alone usually runs for about 5 minutes and then calms down.

I guess I am not educated in horse care/management. I must get off this forum and go in search for PP NH and their kool aid... :yes::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[mustangtrailrider]

Cyberbay, Why don't you take control of this situation and get a permanent companion to your horse......so this never happens again. Leave a mandatory rule that your two horses are never taken from each other.....

It ain't my problem. I got a companion for my baby so we could take the other horses out without having to worry about him. He is fine....

Geesh....it's always someone else's fault. Take control and fix the situation.

[RG Equestrian]

"Be the change you want to see in the world"
--- Author Unknown.


P.S. That was said by Mahatma Gandhi.

[HenryisBlaisin']

I'm not a Parelli fan. I'm the only non-Parelli person in my barn-my BO and BM are very involved with these training methods. They respect the fact that I work and ride my horse traditionally. And they are very, very considerate of my horse's-and my-needs and wants. They go above and beyond to assure my horse's comfort and well-being, even though they know I won't spend extra on training because I don't believe in their training style, and I don't even take lessons in our program. They have been nothing but accomodating about making sure I have adequate arena time when my trainer comes over for lessons, proper turnout. They encourage me in my riding/training. My horse is happier than he has ever been. What horrible, brainwashed people, going out of their way to make my non-NH show horse happy and comfortable.

Was the other rider inconsiderate? Maybe, though it is certainly her right to take her horse anywhere she wants, any time she wants. Was she inconsiderate because she is a Parelli student? I highly doubt it. And while she was inconsiderate, in the end, she is not responsible for someone else's herdbound horse. What if the OP's horse had run in the paddock while the other horse was in there, just because they were feeling good? Whose fault would that be? I'm sorry the horse got hurt, but bottom line: owner and BO/BM are responsible for horse's well-being. Nobody else.

[besttwtbever]

P.S. That was said by Mahatma Gandhi.

Thank You!! I knew it had to have been someone inspiring.

[Androcles]

At the end of the day, YOU, that's right YOU are responsible for your horse's well being. Not somebody else. Not another boarder and not a BO.

actually when you pay someone to take care of your horse, that person assumes responsibility. That's what they're being paid for. And what they buy insurance for. And have to decide how to implement their responsibility.

[Ghazzu]

Would you say that a child 'hurt himself' when you give him a glass bottle to play with on a cement sidewalk? It would be his fault if he smacked it and was left with glass shards in his hand, cutting him badly?



If my neighbor came over with her toddler to visit with me and mine, then left, taking her spawn, and mine threw himself on the kitchen floor because he wasn't happy at being left, no, it wouldn't be my neighbor's fault.

And the bit about the glass bottle is a total strawman sort of construction--unless your fellow boarder tosse broekn glass in the paddock on which your horse was injured.



As I've noted again and again, it's totally fine for her to take her horse out -- how did you ever conclude I would think otherwise -- but, yes, you and I'll have to disagree: she has a responsibility to act responsibly in the barn. Just as you have to act in ANY situation in life. Her horse's wellbeing didn't come behind my horse's... where has this been said?

What if she had brought your horse in first, and her horse had run around frantically at being left and injured himself? Would you blame yourself and your horse for that?



I also disagree that if the BO has agreed to the needs of a horse, the BO has to fulfill them. They are acting in the place of the owner. If the BO can't meet those needs, it needs to be discussed, and maybe the horse will be better served at a more professional place.



If it isn't the barn owner's responsiblity, then it damnsure isn't a fellow boarder's.





Lots of PMs have come in -- I was surprised -- to shake their head at her lack of basic horsemanship and sense of responsibility.

Right.

[Antaeus]

...
And for the millionth time, I involve parelli in this b/c his system encourages fantasy thinking and not an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses at a particular barn -- this is an incorrect approach b/c it jeopardizes safety and wellbeing. He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, and instead of asking them to look to common sense and to understand their motives, to be healthy, he's telling them that they'll get the light and love if they just stick with him. ...


Holy Crapoli! I spent two years of blood, sweat, tears,time, and money getting thru Level 2 Parelli and GOT IT ALL WRONG! My approach is totally the opposite of what the P's were trying to teach me! And I acutally RODE my horse all that time, too.
And to think Manola Mendez was impressed with my (former Parelli) now dressage horse. (And Manolo doesn't even care for the PP system.)

[JB]

Ok, I need to stop acting like the PMS'ing, work-stressed, sleep-deprived lunatic that I am, and make at least one polite response to this thread. So, bear with me...

Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But remember that with freedom comes responsibility. 'Freedom' doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'
You're right, but that is an issue with one's sense of responsibility, and has NOTHING to do with Parelli. You should have left PNH entirely out of this thread and discussed the real issues, which are, as I see it, the following:
1. the object of your outrage, your fellow boarder, was thoughtless in allowing your horse to run like a maniac when she brought her horse out
2. the turnout situation was not as you'd expected, ie 3 horses in the paddock
3. you had not made adequate provisions, apparently, within the barn such that your horse should never be left alone, particularly while in a physically precarious state
4. you have not, from what I gather, made attempts to teach your horse that being left alone is not akin to being cornered by a cougar

#3-4 above allowed #1-2 to have a detrimental effect. Perhaps there is some blame to be laid on the boarder and the management, but ultimately the situation is mostly your issue. As I see it ;)

And I think this boarder in the OP wasn't silly, but a grown woman who chose to renege on her common sense and responsibility toward others. You may not see it that way, but it wasn't just a simple error. She had the facts to deal with and made a choice that hurt my horse.
"You think" - what does that mean? You are assuming she knew the horse would be upset, knew his running would (re)injure himself, and chose to ignore it all. Is that really the case? REALLY? Are you SURE? Should everyone bring in a horse who is running? That teaches them they if they run, they get attention. Are you sure, and i'm really asking an honest question here, based on having asked myself the very same question, you are not hyper-reacting to this incident because you know, in your heart, that you are largely to blame for having allowed the circumstances? that is not a snarky question, it is a real one, one that just about everyone faces and has to acknowledge.

No, a centered riding person probably would have had a broader mentality than what I've witnessed with Parelli. Most likely they would have the common sense and manners to, at minimum, ask about how to handle the horse left out alone...

ok, another honest question here - where, in the CR books, or having a CR instructor come in, is it written that students are taught horse herd psychology? There are MANY folks out there who are students of the CR *books* and not much else. that does not give them herd situations. that does not give them prey animal psychology. That gives them useful riding instruction. that's all. So, because you feel that a PNH cult person doesn't live in the real world, a CR book-student wouldn't be living in the real world either because the books and videos don't teach that. But I still bet you would not have ranted here because I think you like CR.

JB, those clarifications were to clarify some posts that had some confusion. Hope that's OK with you? They aren't statements that needed independent comment, as you've done ... but thanks and you're right, they had nothing "to do with Parelli."
I for one wasn't confused about anything ;) Your post only served to tell me that the root of this issue is that you don't like PNH. That's fine, lots don't like it for whatever reason, doesn't make me lose sleep at night. Hopefully you are sincere in saying (now) that they had nothing to do with Parelli. I really, truly DO hope that you see this as a situation with a boarder, period. I hope you see it as an isssue you need to work with your horse on. I board a horse here who is a fruitbasket if left out by himself. It IS a problem, I understand. It DOES need to be worked on. I have not made the time. But they are on my property, and working full time makes it difficult to train a horse who isn't mine. I accept that - I don't leave him out by himself, though sometimes he won't be caught and I bring the other 2 in and he runs and screams. Eventually he figures he needs to wait by the gate, and then I get him. that's as far as i have the time to take his training. If he had an injury that made it such that he shouldn't be doing that, well, he'd have to find another place to live, becauese while I can, if pressed, control him never being alone (by simply not bringing the other 2 in), I cannot control what the 3 of them do when turned out, and yes, sometimes they all get running like spazes just 'cause.

I would be very angry too if a boarder whose horse shared my field was not paying attention and removed her horse with mine left behind to run the fence line...If the horse is not good alone, there should be a policy in place for the boarders to cope with this type of turnout situation and bring the horse into a stall.
Agreed,and this is really the issue. This should never have been about Parelli, period, because it has *nothing* to do with Parelli. I don't think it's the boarder's responsibility though, ultimately it's the owner, and the barn management, but one would hope a boarder or three would be able to fill in gaps. however, while I would have recognized the situation, I'm not going to risk my health trying to deal with a frantic horse who isn't my responsibility if I can help it. So a LOT depends on how the horse is to deal with once he's worked up, as to what is done iwth him.

However, that being said, what is the barn policy on this or is there any? Would another boarder be able to safely bring your horse into the barn? Is he reasonable to lead in? These are just some of the questions to be asked of the barn manager. Maybe going forward, you can simply ask that your horse not be left alone.
Exactly. No need for all the drama. figure out what *really* happened (as in why did the situation really exist) and see what can be done to make sure it doesn't happen again.

For you, Ambrey, I'll reply to what she was SUPPOSED to do:
She should have noted that my horse was going to be alone in the pasture by removing her horse. As anyone educated in horse care/management would know, the thing to do is (as I described in another post) is for her to have noted this and then turn to barn staff and say, "I need to bring in my horse, and that means the other horse, that doesn't like to be alone, will need to be brought in." The two of them go down to the pasture and bring in the 2 horses.
did she KNOW your horse HAD to be brought in?

JaimeB- I totally disagree that my horse 'hurt himself.' No, he was put in a situation by a human -- who knew better -- that overfaced him. It was a situation that is totally easy to manage -- just have him brought in by the barn staff. This is a perfectly routine thing to do. Would you say that a child 'hurt himself' when you give him a glass bottle to play with on a cement sidewalk? It would be his fault if he smacked it and was left with glass shards in his hand, cutting him badly?
Again, did she KNOW this would escalate? who'se "fault" was it that the 3rd horse wasn't in the pasture?

And for the millionth time, I involve parelli in this b/c his system encourages fantasy thinking and not an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses at a particular barn
No, he does not, and I'm really not sure where you get that idea. People involved in their own fantasy world encourage their own fantastic thinking. PNH is NOT about boarding etiquette. It is not about how to act in a show ring. It is about interacting with your horse. Just because a program, any program, doesn't talk about how to behave in X situation does not mean it encourages you to behave badly in or ignore X situation. do you think you could watch Jane Savoie's online videos and get a feel for an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses?

-- this is an incorrect approach b/c it jeopardizes safety and wellbeing. He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, and instead of asking them to look to common sense and to understand their motives, to be healthy, he's telling them that they'll get the light and love if they just stick with him.
no, he's not, but that is a common misconception among many

Lots of PMs have come in -- I was surprised -- to shake their head at her lack of basic horsemanship and sense of responsibility.
THAT is the real issue. Truly. I understand that. But you know what? The clueless cannot learn about something they have never encountered. there was a time when you yourself would never have thought about possible consequences of leaving a horse in a pasture by himself. guaranteed.

[saultgirl]

OP, did you even consider for a second that maybe your horse was grazing quietly when the lady removed her horse, and your horse didn't start running until later (like "OMG, where is everybody??!!") ?

[Androcles]

What if she had brought your horse in first, and her horse had run around frantically at being left and injured himself? Would you blame yourself and your horse for that?



And that's another strawman, because she has repeatedly stated what she expected - some exercising of common sense, awareness, and responsibility.

[magnolia73]

And for the millionth time, I involve parelli in this b/c his system encourages fantasy thinking and not an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses at a particular barn -- this is an incorrect approach b/c it jeopardizes safety and wellbeing. He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, and instead of asking them to look to common sense and to understand their motives, to be healthy, he's telling them that they'll get the light and love if they just stick with him



I think it is like this- if you have communicated to the boarder that your horse can not be alone, and gave her instructions on what to do in the case she is leaving her alone- a solution that does not involve extra effort on her part.... and she chose to ignore that... it was probably laziness or forgetfulness on her part. Or she genuinely did not realize your horse was alone. Lazy, forgetful people exist in all disciplines. I can be really forgetful at times.

I suppose she may have passively been trying to "Parelli" fix your horse.... but here is his advice on the topic.... I mean, it may well not be your solution, but she certainly didn't get the idea to leave your horse all alone to "deal with it" from Parelli:
Start by getting your horses used to being tied for long periods of time. This means 4 to 8 hours! They learn patience quickly and soon will stand quietly. Horses that are not used to separation or being tied need to be tied more often. Start with shorter amounts of time and build up to several hours. You can tie the horse where he can still see his buddy all day.

Next, begin some short separations. Cold turkey is not the way to do it. That is how horses and riders get hurt. Take one horse away for just a moment and return. Then do it again and again until the other horse sees that he's really not gone. Be prepared for this to take many repetitions. Once they are both calm, increase the time for which one horse is out of sight. With each session push the distance a little further but always start with a short one. Begin with the horses tied near each other, and then each day increase this gap until by day seven they can't see each other at all. By doing this task, in stages, you are helping increase the horses' confidence.

Lastly, think about how you could become as important to your horse as another horse. It's easy for people to do this with dogs because we are both predator species. With horses, you need to understand their prey animal psychology and how you will have to prove yourself a worthy leader. Horses are very attached to their dominant counterpart. If you were to put on a horse suit and go into the corral... what would it take to become the boss hoss? You have to learn to think like a horse and use the same communication and dominance strategies that horses do within the herd.

This is the key to natural horsemanship... 50% of the program is about equine relationship skills.

My take: She's lazy, dislikes you, forgot, didn't notice, didn't care, didn't realize what would happen... but no, she did not do it because Pat Parelli told her to.

[BornToRide]

Originally Posted by cyberbay
Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But remember that with freedom comes responsibility. 'Freedom' doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'

Wow, yeah, that also means taking responsibility for one's own actions or lack thereof, like taking responsibility of the behavior of one's own horse.......all you are doing is passing the blame, but from what I see here from what you have posted, I doubt you will understand what that really means.....:(

[dalpal]

I'm not endorsing it. Just sharing experiences of what different barns are like. Honestly, I didn't appreciate it one bit. But these BO's were the laziest unaccountable slobs I'd ever seen around horses.

Well, I certainly can relate to you there...I've seen a fair share of those in my horse days. :( I wish I was one of those lucky ones who had my horses at home.

[Rick Burten]

That's right.
People often forget that the very first game is the Lonely Game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKcCaCgMLBE&feature=PlayList&p=82FD87B4760FD6DB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6

[MintHillFarm]

I do feel lucky having my horses at home...
I also decided some years ago that I was a not a great boarder because:

I wanted 2 water buckets for my horses, plenty of hay and ample bedding when in their stall, safe fencing, turn out companions that didn't chase, bite or kick. There may have been other issues but that about sums it up. Now when I don't like something I change it or I have no one to blame but myself!

[Rick Burten]

He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, .........
Talk about the pot calling the kettle, black..........

[dalpal]

Well, time to clarify, for all you non-readers (reply got lost in ether, so this is a summary):

--This boarder knew VERY, VERY well my horse didn't like to be alone. Staff, other owners etc., are all comfortable with the turnout my horse has with the 2 others that are normally with him.
--On the day in question, the 3rd horse was not turned out at the time. This pasture is the farthest from the barn, and as it happened that day, the other surrounding pastures were mostly empty.
--I never said it was this boarder's personal responsibility to literally handle my horse.

Sooo, did you expect her NOT to take her horse out to ride/work..because your horse would be left alone?


--Many, many horses do not like to be alone.

That's true, but still not her responsiblity

--I never said my horse was herdbound. He doesn't like to be out in the field with no one else around. He will stand in the barn totally alone until forever. Herdbound?
--Parelli is involved in this b/c imo he offers a fantasy-based horse class. This woman chose to do this Parelli path because why? So she could take a short cut to the summit of horsemanship and run with the big dogs?

And this is your business...because?????

Instead of taking her available horse hours to learn horsemanship, barn management, horse care from the very best and well-known (not always 1 and same, I realize, but many are 1 and same) horsepeople, she instead chose to be sitting in the stands watching rope twirling and how to manipulate a horse by withholding water and feed.

I've never seen Parelli advocate withholding water and feed, but maybe I've missed something? :confused:


So, yes, Parelli does have a lot to do with it, because he heavily, heavily implies that you do my ropes and hoops, and it's all you need to know about horses. There was no encouragement to get practical experience by being around good horsepeople, which, imo, is one of the best routes to being safe and successful with horses.

So is your beef that she took her horse out of the pasture or that she uses Parelli methods? If this woman is an adult what right do you have to tell her what she can do with her horse?

By the way, no one else can halter this boarder's Parelli horse; he spooks at only things he sees; he flies off the x-ties; dumps his saddle. It's a show. I honestly don't think she 'gets' her horse, but if he backs away from the swirly rope, that's SUCCESS!! And this concerns you..why? Are you in charge of catching her horse?

My point is that because she chose to put her available learning time into sitting in the stands, instead of doing reality-based horsemanship by learning at or boarding at and hanging around a quality barn (doesn't have to be a lot of $) to absorb how barns are managed, how horses are cared for, psychology of horses, what is the mainstream 'culture' of horses, not this sideshow of Parelli, she would have known how to handle the situation of a horse being left alone in a pasture. (She has boarded in the area and she is not a total neophyte) And once again..this is your business, because???

With the above-mentioned exposures, she would have known horses run; she would have known that horses can get hurt.

How do you know she DOESN'T know these things :confused:


If she rode her horse, she would have known what an investment training can be (not saying riding is the only thing that counts, but her tiny world of experience, kept that way by Parelli-style mantras, stayed small). She would have known the horse-based and common-sense-based technique (which many posters have alluded to) to alert the staff and to have them help bring in my horse while she was bringing in hers.

News Flash..when you board your horse, you will always be amongst those that don't do the same things that you would do. Has nothing to do with Pat Parelli. I'm almost feeling a bit sorry for Pat on this thread.....he's taking alot of heat for this....maybe you should send this to his website.


But, Parelli doesn't teach that;
So I am assuming that you have studied Parelli to know this? And damn, once again, here I am having to defend Pat Parelli.

this is found in well-run barns in which management (most of the staff educated and experienced sans Parelli) makes the wellbeing of the horse paramount and doesn't DREAM of letting a horse run nor would they engage in ANY behavior that jeopardizes the long-term wellbeing of the horses and/or the people. I can tell you this, I have been in good barns and bad....NONE have ever been "Pat Parelli" barns....and I can tell you that some were run well and some were run badly. It has nothing to do with Pat Parelli......there are lazy people, idiotic people, crazy people, dangerous people in all disciplines...You can't blame this on Pat Parelli.

Got PM'd by someone. He told me his horse was left to pace the fence on a hot day by Parelli people who had brought in their horses. His horse heat-stroked. They left that horse out to 'teach' it not to be 'herd-bound.'

And once again, all boarding barns have issues..not everyone is going to be as anal, thoughtful, mindful as you. I am one of those who catches EVERY single detail....but not everyone works that way.

This has nothing to do with my horse being supposedly "herd-bound, and he should get over it..."

So how are you going to handle this in the future if your horse doesn't learn how to cope? You need a plan, ranting about Pat Parelli isn't going to help your horse.

and "who am I to not allow her to ride her horse..."

This I agree with...you have no right to dictate what this person does. You call her crazy..but she might think the same about you.

and everything to do with a person who wanted a system to give her a sense that she would have all the answers always. And there was the Parelli system, a system that makes participants feel it's the one and only way and seems to discourage other, reality-based experiences.

So hypothetical question...if this girl had come out of a big name hunter, dressage, eventing barn with a big named trainer and had done the same thing....you wouldn't be upset? Once again, some people just aren't as horsey as others...they don't get it, they never will..regardless if they study Parelli or study George Morris...doesn't matter.



Many signs indicate she knows very little outside of Parelli, given the continuing antics of her horse, the poor riding, and the now-predictable and endless references to her Parelli experiences. I have to say that I have never seen Pat Parelli (I do catch his show on RFDTV sometimes) say.."Hey guys, when you see a horse running in a pasture going crazy..ignore it." I have never seen Pat Parelli recommend withholding feed from a horse.

Does this cast any clarity on my original post?

Ummm, yeah....it certainly does. :eek:

You may not agree, but that's OK.

I think you are angry and upset..that I understand....but I think you need to realize that not everyone who owns a horse is going to be super considerate. You have to figure out something that works for your horse and stop worrying about someone who likes Parelli.

[dalpal]

I don't know about you guys, but I needed a little funny in my day. OP's second post did just that :lol:

I dunno, I thought it was a bit scary. :lol::lol::lol:

[dalpal]

Well, you're right Ghazzu, it's a free country. But remember that with freedom comes responsibility. 'Freedom' doesn't give someone the right to hurt someone else's horse b/c they have reneged on common sense and courtesy in the name of a 'system.'

Sweetie....what you have is an accident. Your horse ran in the pasture and got hurt. It could happen at ANY boarding barn. She didn't hurt your horse...your horse hurt himself. No different than if the group started running and your horse got kicked or ran into the fence. I'm guessing that would be Pat Parelli's fault as well..since the culprit horse was Parelli trained. :confused:

Silly is OK, until that 'silly' neighbor of yours backs his car over your child. At some point, silly is no longer harmless. And I think this boarder in the OP wasn't silly, but a grown woman who chose to renege on her common sense and responsibility toward others. You may not see it that way, but it wasn't just a simple error. She had the facts to deal with and made a choice that hurt my horse. I smell a Parelli lawsuit.



Most likely they would have the common sense and manners to, at minimum, ask about how to handle the horse left out alone... Oh My God....you've got to be joking. You cannot say that for certain.

JB, those clarifications were to clarify some posts that had some confusion. Hope that's OK with you? They aren't statements that needed independent comment, as you've done ... but thanks and you're right, they had nothing "to do with Parelli."

Okay, so now you admit that this has nothing to do with Parelli???? :confused:

[dalpal]

I would be very angry too if a boarder whose horse shared my field was not paying attention and removed her horse with mine left behind to run the fence line...If the horse is not good alone, there should be a policy in place for the boarders to cope with this type of turnout situation and bring the horse into a stall.

However, that being said, what is the barn policy on this or is there any? Would another boarder be able to safely bring your horse into the barn? Is he reasonable to lead in? These are just some of the questions to be asked of the barn manager. Maybe going forward, you can simply ask that your horse not be left alone.


I think this is admirable and I would alert the barn management (as I have always done if I see a horse going nuts in a paddock) for sure....but I think everyone is just flabbergasted over the "IT'S ALL PAT PARELLI'S FAULT" ...

[dalpal]

For you, Ambrey, I'll reply to what she was SUPPOSED to do:
She should have noted that my horse was going to be alone in the pasture by removing her horse. As anyone educated in horse care/management would know, the thing to do is (as I described in another post) is for her to have noted this and then turn to barn staff and say, "I need to bring in my horse, and that means the other horse, that doesn't like to be alone, will need to be brought in." The two of them go down to the pasture and bring in the 2 horses.

JaimeB- I totally disagree that my horse 'hurt himself.' No, he was put in a situation by a human -- who knew better -- that overfaced him. It was a situation that is totally easy to manage -- just have him brought in by the barn staff. This is a perfectly routine thing to do. Would you say that a child 'hurt himself' when you give him a glass bottle to play with on a cement sidewalk? It would be his fault if he smacked it and was left with glass shards in his hand, cutting him badly?

As I've noted again and again, it's totally fine for her to take her horse out -- how did you ever conclude I would think otherwise -- but, yes, you and I'll have to disagree: she has a responsibility to act responsibly in the barn. Just as you have to act in ANY situation in life. Her horse's wellbeing didn't come behind my horse's... where has this been said?

I also disagree that if the BO has agreed to the needs of a horse, the BO has to fulfill them. They are acting in the place of the owner. If the BO can't meet those needs, it needs to be discussed, and maybe the horse will be better served at a more professional place.

And for the millionth time, I involve parelli in this b/c his system encourages fantasy thinking and not an overarching system of wellbeing for all horses at a particular barn -- this is an incorrect approach b/c it jeopardizes safety and wellbeing. He has given a home to people with low common sense and high emotional needs, and instead of asking them to look to common sense and to understand their motives, to be healthy, he's telling them that they'll get the light and love if they just stick with him.

Lots of PMs have come in -- I was surprised -- to shake their head at her lack of basic horsemanship and sense of responsibility.

Okay...A. No one cares "how many PMs you've gotten"

And I gotta ask.....so have you talk to the offending boarder and your barn manager. What did they say?

[dalpal]

actually when you pay someone to take care of your horse, that person assumes responsibility. That's what they're being paid for. And what they buy insurance for. And have to decide how to implement their responsibility.

I agree with this in theory....but very sadly, I see very, very few boarding barns who live up to this. :(

[GettingBack]

I'm still astounded at this thread.

Who saw the horse running and screaming and knew that this boarder's immense lalaland flight into parelli-land caused the injury to your horse?

Was someone a witness to the whole thing? From start to finish?

[suze]

I'm making popcorn. This is better that the reruns on tv.

[JLR1]

It sucks when the world doesn't revolve around you!

[jaimebaker]

actually when you pay someone to take care of your horse, that person assumes responsibility. That's what they're being paid for. And what they buy insurance for. And have to decide how to implement their responsibility.

Yeah, right. And I read on this board all the time about how well that works out for the horse. I'll repeat, YOU are responsible for your horse. Period. If you can't find a barn where the BO stays on top of things and commands other boarders bring horses in so they won't be alone, and so on and so forth, then who, at the end of the day is responsible? YOU are. Find another barn if the one you are at doesn't make you happy. That's how I look at it anyway. Then again, I've never boarded and would never board. If I couldn't keep my horses at home, I guess I wouldn't have them. I wouldn't put up with 1/10th of what I've heard others put up with.

[egontoast]

I never said my horse was herdbound. He doesn't like to be out in the field with no one else around. He will stand in the barn totally alone until forever. Herdbound?


:confused:.
if your horse is not herdbound then he should be OK out in the field on his own. If he's running the fenceline screaming when his friend leaves, he's herdbound.

[equineartworks]

I do feel lucky having my horses at home...
I also decided some years ago that I was a not a great boarder because:

I wanted 2 water buckets for my horses, plenty of hay and ample bedding when in their stall, safe fencing, turn out companions that didn't chase, bite or kick. There may have been other issues but that about sums it up. Now when I don't like something I change it or I have no one to blame but myself!


I waited 40 years for my horses...that gave me 40 years to learn what to do and what not to do and to decide who I respect and who I don't when it comes to care and training. I would be a boarding nightmare :)

For the training...I have a very short list :D

[partlycloudy]

I have a mare who's about the most independant horse I've ever met...she can turn out alone, be in a barn alone etc. In one boarding barn (where we were at VERY briefly) the oh so savvy bo's decided for some reason to separate her from the rest of the herd in a paddock behind the barn.
She did, in this instance, run the fenceline. She smacked her foreleg and caused an injury that in the end, caused a bump that she still has to this day.
Why did she become upset on that day? who knows what goes on in their mind on any given day...they're horses.
I do know that it pisses me off every time I look at that lump (which is every day) and I do know that those people had alot of orange sticks in their tackroom.
I realize that the instance here is a little different than the OP's (since it was the BO's who initiated the whole fiasco and not a boarder) but the attitude is the same...'stupid horse can just get over itself'
or perhaps the fellow boarder is just a little clueless/hurried/forgetful or whatever. We really can't know what went thru her mind can we?

[equineartworks]

It sucks when the world doesn't revolve around you!

Wait a minute! It doesn't ?!?!? :confused: j/k

...you figure that out when you are what? 4?

[Huntertwo]

another one who feels that there is no link between "horse left in pasture alone" and "Parelli" I vote that the OP is off her/his rocker and/or a few short of a six pack.


Short a keg is more like it.... ;)

OP, you are making absolutely no sense in either of your complaints.
Parelli and the boarder being responsible for your horse. :confused: How do these two tie in???

You have absolutely NO valid complaint at all..

This thread/complaint is probably the most STUPID I've ever read on COTH, yet I'm getting sucked in..

[Huntertwo]

I would be very angry too if a boarder whose horse shared my field was not paying attention and removed her horse with mine left behind to run the fence line...If the horse is not good alone, there should be a policy in place for the boarders to cope with this type of turnout situation and bring the horse into a stall.

.

WHY??? There are many days when I am pressed for time just to get my own horse groomed and ready to ride. HOW and WHY would I be responsible for taking care of ANOTHER horse??? Sorry, it is NOT MY responsibility...

And like I stated in a prior post - I've been around some rude, knock-you-over type of horses. So no, I'm not going to deal with them every time I want to ride. That's B.S.!

If your horse can't handle being alone, then move to a place with a big herd environment and chances are he won't be left alone if god forbid someone would like to ride their own horse.

Cripes..:no:

[MrWinston]

After reading the whole thread, I can really only find fault with the concept that Parelli has anything to do with it. I do sympathize with the OP's frustration about her horse being left to run itself into reinjury. One would hope that SOMEONE would take notice of the horse before it got hurt. That said, having boarded in numerous situations I know that a horse that is prone to do this is likely to be overlooked at some point. I know, I have a horse that will do the very same thing if given a chance to. I'm afraid that it comes with the territory of having other people responsible for your horse. It's why I had to be at the barn every day when I boarded and even then I was often very frustrated. It was a great relief to finally bring the horses to our own farm.

[trubandloki]

Sweetie....what you have is an accident. Your horse ran in the pasture and got hurt. It could happen at ANY boarding barn. She didn't hurt your horse...your horse hurt himself. No different than if the group started running and your horse got kicked or ran into the fence. I'm guessing that would be Pat Parelli's fault as well..since the culprit horse was Parelli trained. :confused:



(Underline added)

Actually, things like this can happen anywhere.

Horses like to self destruct. It does not take a brain dead boarder, bad barn owner, controlling horse owner or anything else for a horse to decide to run around a pasture and hurt itself.



One point I truly do not get. The OP keeps carrying on about how stupid and lacking of common sense this PP boarder is. But then they wanted this PP boarder to make a decision about the proper care of their horse?
:eek:
Um, I am sorry but if I have such a low opinion of someone as you see to have for this person I most certainly do not want them touching my horse let alone making ANY sort of decision about my horses well being.

It sounds like the barn you board at has staff. You obviously have not informed the staff about all the special needs of your horse. Maybe you should start there.

[JB]

Horses like to self destruct. It does not take a brain dead boarder, bad barn owner, controlling horse owner or anything else for a horse to decide to run around a pasture and hurt itself.


*nods* Mine are out all the time, but they ARE horses, the DO like to run and have fun sometimes, and on one of those occasions I came home to find my horse had ruptured a tendon from hyper-extending a leg. Manure happens, unfortunately.

The first time he was injured (severed extensor tendon that time) was at a boarding barn though. I suppose I should have blamed the BO for not making sure the flock of Canadian Geese didn't startle the horses into running ;)

[trubandloki]

The first time he was injured (severed extensor tendon that time) was at a boarding barn though. I suppose I should have blamed the BO for not making sure the flock of Canadian Geese didn't startle the horses into running ;)

Of course that was not the BO's fault. I am sure PP caused them to fly over. It has to be PP's fault. There is no other reason horses get hurt. :winkgrin:


For the record - I am not a PP fan and it pains me to defend him, but...well.... it really is not his fault.

[dalpal]

Of course that was not the BO's fault. I am sure PP caused them to fly over. It has to be PP's fault. There is no other reason horses get hurt. :winkgrin:


For the record - I am not a PP fan and it pains me to defend him, but...well.... it really is not his fault.

Damn Parelli Geese. :lol:

[Kitari]

To the comment about water deprivation, I HAVE seen a parelli person use it as a tactic to get the horse more comfortable with handling since the person supplied its needs for survival.

[dalpal]

To the comment about water deprivation, I HAVE seen a parelli person use it as a tactic to get the horse more comfortable with handling since the person supplied its needs for survival.

Maybe...but, I have never seen Pat Parelli use this tactic. Perhaps those who have actually used the system can weigh in on this one.

I could study Conrad Schumacher...take one of his techniques, turn it in to something abusive, tell people that I learned this from C.S. See my point.

[Coppers mom]

Maybe...but, I have never seen Pat Parelli use this tactic. Perhaps those who have actually used the system can weigh in on this one.

I went to a clinic of his, and he did in fact recommend that a woman deprive her horse of food and water because he wouldn't let her catch it. His reasoning was that if he had to be caught to drink and eat, he'd eventually see her as something good and let her catch him all the time.


*doo doo doo*

[Kitari]

I went to a clinic of his, and he did in fact recommend that a woman deprive her horse of food and water because he wouldn't let her catch it. His reasoning was that if he had to be caught to drink and eat, he'd eventually see her as something good and let her catch him all the time.


*doo doo doo*

exactly what the person in question said to me when I questioned about it

[Androcles]

Find another barn if the one you are at doesn't make you happy. That's how I look at it anyway. Then again, I've never boarded and would never board.

That much is apparent. It seems like it's the people with the least boarding experience sharing the most vehement opinions here about responsiblity of boarders vs. barn owners. And think it's just that easy to 'find another barn', amongst the hundreds of choices that are out there, don't you know. Barn owners are running a business just like any other business and are responsible for providing the services agreed to including looking after the horse when the owner is not there.

And a horse who 'can't' be left alone outside is not herdbound. That is normal instinctive behavior. A herbound horse is one who cannot be taken away from his herd, such as to go on a trail ride or to a show.

[Kitari]

That much is apparent. It seems like it's the people with the least boarding experience sharing the most vehement opinions here about responsiblity of boarders vs. barn owners. And think it's just that easy to 'find another barn', amongst the hundreds of choices that are out there, don't you know. Barn owners are running a business just like any other business and are responsible for providing the services agreed to including looking after the horse when the owner is not there.

And a horse who 'can't' be left alone outside is not herdbound. That is normal instinctive behavior. A herbound horse is one who cannot be taken away from his herd, such as to go on a trail ride or to a show.

So what your saying is, If I ride my 3 year old away form my pony and she goes willingly and eagerly with no hesitation or desire to go back she is not herd bound, Yet if I take my pony away and hide her behind the barn or shack or what ever and my 3 year hollers and runs after us until she finds us behind said building she is not herd bound?

And yes I have done that experiment, we played ring around the shack, pocket full of ponies.

[trubandloki]

That much is apparent. It seems like it's the people with the least boarding experience sharing the most vehement opinions here about responsiblity of boarders vs. barn owners. And think it's just that easy to 'find another barn', amongst the hundreds of choices that are out there, don't you know. Barn owners are running a business just like any other business and are responsible for providing the services agreed to including looking after the horse when the owner is not there.


Hu?

I have boarded for a VERY long time until just over a year ago when I finally had the privilege of bringing my horses home. I think with 20 years of boarding under my belt I am allowed to have an opinion on boarding barns. I have done backyard mom and pop barns, I have done show barns and a couple of things in between.

I agree with Jaime. If this barn is not serving the OP find one that does.

I highly doubt the boarding contract says anything about the what if situations on the scale we are discussing. The contract would have to be a 100 pages long and it would still miss things.

[arabhorse2]

Agreed, Trub.

I've had horses for 31 years. They've been at home exactly 4 years.

At no time was I ever EXPECTED to take care of someone else's horse when I was boarding, whether it be a BNT show barn or a one-owner private barn. I'd keep an eye out for them out of courtesy, but I never took it upon myself to handle anyone else's horse without express permission.

There are those who think it's their God given right to lay hands on anyone's horse that they see fit, but I don't happen to be one of them.

I have left barns for not providing what I considered proper care for my horse. It really is that easy, but it takes some time and legwork.

The OP has a victim/entitlement mentality. It can't possibly be her fault that her horse might be ill-trained; it MUST be the fault of that Satanic Parelli follower because SHE didn't make it her duty and responsibility to look after the OP's horse! Give me a freakin' break....

[Androcles]

I highly doubt the boarding contract says anything about the what if situations on the scale we are discussing. The contract would have to be a 100 pages long and it would still miss things.

That's exactly right. Which is why you need other people, boarders, to man up and show some responsibility, common sense, horsemanship skills, awareness, and proactivity when encountering one of the thousand what-ifs.

[trubandloki]

That's exactly right. Which is why you need other people, boarders, to man up and show some responsibility, common sense, horsemanship skills, awareness, and proactivity when encountering one of the thousand what-ifs.

Um, sure!

And how do we know:

1. That the evil PP follower knew this horse had an issue being alone?
(by how the OP talks about this person I highly doubt she ever has chats with them.)
2. That the OP's horse was acting in any way out of the ordinary when the evil PP removed their horse?
3. That the evil PP noticed the OP's horse acting up? (The OP did say this pasture is not near the barn so if the evil PP got their horse and took it to ride it is understandable they would not notice the OP's horse acting up.)
4. That the evil PP knew that the third horse was not out there some where?


I could go on and on. The bottle line is - when you own a horse crap happens.


And for the record. I did change barns for this very reason. But it was the BO that thought it was important to teach my horse a lesson and she worked hard to leave him out by himself and let him run himself into a lather. She would intentionally bring him in last because she knew he hated it, etc.

So changing barns is a reasonable solution if something that is important to you is not being handled the way you want it handled.


And the bottom line here is <drum roll> This issue has nothing to do with PP!

[Equine Studies]

I knew an older gentleman who got into Parelli when he bought a lovely Western Pleasure trained quarter horse and boarded it at the barn I was at. Part of his "thing" was that he would come out at 6 am, feed the horse in the outdoor sand ring while he read the paper, made it ground tie there until 8 when the owner started morning chores, did two hours of side passing, backing up, lunging on the little circle etcn (the games). Then went out on a trail ride until noon (because he was also a wanna be cowboy and don't all cowboy horses have at least a 6 hour day?). Not saying that is a Parelli thing specifically, or if it was his take on it-part of his idea was that you interrupt the horse's routine to take control.

The end result was the horse got sour, wouldn't be caught by his owner, ended up with a sore back (he wasn't a great rider, and had a custom made Western saddle that was very, very heavy-I know this because I had to untack the horse twice when it dumped him out back on the trails and ran back to the barn). The second fall injured his shoulder so bad he ended up giving the horse away to a family because it had severe back problems that weren't going away. He is no longer involved with horses. Too bad, he was a lovely horse to start with.

Now I'm not at all saying it was Parelli training that ruined this horse, but like anything else it needs to be done properly. This guy completely overdid everything he did. And just like any other discipline, if you take a weekend clinic by someone trained by a third or fourth level down trainer (not the original Parelli or whoever), it does not make you an expert. For instance the woman who I believe is at Level 2 at a former barn of mine who charges $ and gives her own in barn "Parelli clinic". Nor does it give you the freedom to criticize or try and force your opinion on people who use "traditional" methods. Such as the same woman who when anyone is having trouble with their horse, does the old "Well, if you did some Parelli that wouldn't happen". I think that's what irritates the non-Parelli people more than the actual Parelli training itself.

[JB]

Damn Parelli Geese. :lol:
I didn't see them, but I'm *sure* they were in perfect formation, following their leader, and respecting his airspace :lol:

To the comment about water deprivation, I HAVE seen a parelli person use it as a tactic to get the horse more comfortable with handling since the person supplied its needs for survival.
I've seen total morons use that as a tactic. If a "dressage" person were to use that tactic, would you be blaming the entire Dressage community? I saw a WP person tie (tie, not drape the line over) her horse to a cross bar at the end of a barn aisle, her horse spooked, ran off with the bar still tied to his lead rope, and dinged his legs all to hell. Is that WP's fault?

[GettingBack]

I would still like to know where the witness is that this all happened.

OP, can you clarify - was there a witness to this?

[JB]

And a horse who 'can't' be left alone outside is not herdbound. That is normal instinctive behavior. A herbound horse is one who cannot be taken away from his herd, such as to go on a trail ride or to a show.

So a horse is "normal" if he can't stand to have his buddies taken away from him, but "herdbound" if he cannot be taken from them? :confused:

The difference is...? He's separated from his herd, however many that may be. That's the point. It causes anxiety, that causes the herdbound behaviors, some of which are merely annoying, some of which are downright dangerous.

Some of those horses can be left in a stall without problem because they feel safe in a stall. Horses who behave in a herdbound manner behave so because, IME and IMO, they do not feel safe. It doesn't matter whether they get left, or they are the one leaving.

[caballus]

Horses who behave in a herdbound manner behave so because, IME and IMO, they do not feel safe. It doesn't matter whether they get left, or they are the one leaving. I agree 100%.

[JB]

Now I'm not at all saying it was Parelli training that ruined this horse, but like anything else it needs to be done properly.
And there you go :) Nicely said.


For instance the woman who I believe is at Level 2 at a former barn of mine who charges $ and gives her own in barn "Parelli clinic".
I do believe the Parellis would be having a little cow over that

Nor does it give you the freedom to criticize or try and force your opinion on people who use "traditional" methods. Such as the same woman who when anyone is having trouble with their horse, does the old "Well, if you did some Parelli that wouldn't happen". I think that's what irritates the non-Parelli people more than the actual Parelli training itself.
Absolutely agree, those people are THE ones who give the program its general bad name, unfortunately :(

[HenryisBlaisin']

Any training method, done daily with no variation, can sour a horse. I'm not a NH follower (I understand the reasoning behind some of them, but not necessarily the method), but I have never seen a NH person work on PP ground work for 2 hours straight every day.

Nor do I think that the amount of work alone is the problem-working ranch hoses DO work six hours a day routinely. But if the work is unvaried, the horse will get sour. If you do the same dressage test over and over or jump the same course with no variation, the horse is going to get bored pretty fast and his performance will decline.

I think the idea of withholding food and water is ridiculous and goes against NH-while horses do resourse guard, they don't do it to deprive or punish other horses-so to me, that is not NATURAL horsemanship at all. Then again, if every single time you catch your horse, you saddle him up and work on the same thing, he's going to get hard to catch. I go to the barn a couple times a week when I'm not planning to ride, and cathch my guy, love on him, hose him off if it's hot, hand graze him, etc. I'll do this after I ride and turn out as well. He comes to me because he knows it's not just about having a saddle tossed on and around and around the arena.

I still wonder though, if the OP would twist the situation to be someone else's fault if the horse had been imjured running WITH his pasture buddy, or if the other boarder or BO had gone to bring him in and he bolted or otherwise hurt himself while they were doing exactly what the OP wanted them to do.

Horses sometimes get injured, even if every precaution is taken. I expect my BO to be able to sleep, use the restroom, ride his own horse-I don't expect him to be watching mine 24/7. I don't expect him to whisk my horse out of the field the minute he goes above a trot. I DO expect that he will exercise reasonable discretion in the care of my horse. If I thought he was careless or putting my horse in any danger whatsoever,I'd leave. If you really don't think that your barn is a safe environment, then it is time to find a new one.

[Rachel L]

I took a course at the Parelli ranch in Colorado. They recommend that rather than hanging a water bucket in your horse's paddock, you lead your horse to the water troughs to drink. This was actually a very interesting exercise, highly recommended, because I learned when my horse drinks, and how much she drinks, and how it varies with what work (or, oops, "play" in Parelli-speak) she is doing. I took my horse to the water trough probably a dozen times a day and she drank no more than once or twice. I suppose, strictly speaking, she was "deprived" of water during the times she was in her pen, but she would not have drunk it anyway, so she was no more deprived than a horse is deprived when you take him out and ride him for a couple of hours in an arena without a giant trough in the middle. There was no dehydrating the horse to force it to do something or anything stupid like that, that would be totally contrary to what PP is teaching - that you build a trusting relationship with your horse.

[saultgirl]

Re: withholding water

I do believe that parelli suggests going to your horse several times per day and taking them to water. Probably works just fine for those who are attending "clinics" and programs that are a few days or a week long or so, when there is not much else to do in the day, but obviously not practical for most.

[Guilherme]

Keeping horses from water is an old time method of beginning the process of breaking range mustangs to saddle. It was done by Indian and white folks during the early 19th century.

I've used the "food deprivation" method while hobble breaking horses. Put 'em in a stall, water but no food. Wait a couple of hours, then hobble them in a nice stand of grass. They very quickly decide that the things on their feet don't really matter as long as there's lots to eat. Never had a problem with this method.

Having the human as the source of food and water is not an unreasonable way to deal with horses with issues. It does, however, require a lot of regular, human labor for serveral days and most folks don't have the time or the inclination to do this; they'd rather have a "short cut."

If Parelli recommends this it's not all bad, but must be done in a structured manner.

The OP is still way off base claiming that somebody else is responsible for the injury to her horse.

G.

[Equilibrium]

Since this is non PP issue, I won't go there.

Your horse hurt himself. It happens in the best of circumstances so it can sure happen in non ideal situations.

Ask for your horse to be in a paddock closer to the barn. This way nobody can get blamed for your horse getting hurt. Sometimes, it's not about just having a buddy in the field it's about being close to action and other horses.

It was not an ideal situation, but it was not the girl's fault nor was it PP's fault. Grow up and take responsibility. If there is no way possible for you and BO to make sure your horse can be somewhere safe to meet his needs, then move.

I personally work around what each horse needs to be happy. So what if one needs a bit of special attention around turnout time. At the end of the day I'm supposed to be smarter than my horses. They aren't little robots and quite frankly if they do what I ask then I can be accomodating to their needs as horses. I have horses that can be on their own and horses who can't. It's never been a problem, I just work around it.

Terri

[cyberbay]

G'herme -- I never said that the other woman was responsible for my horse. Never said that -- pls. find me the quote? What I am saying is that she has a responsibility to do her best to conduct herself and handle her horse in a way that hopefully does not lead to harm for anyone else's horse and other people. Can you explain why that is an offensive outlook?

No, I wouldnt' have blamed anyone if my horse went for a brisk canter w/his pasture mates and came up bad. Of course not. Why would you even ask? Horses do what they do and are reactive creatures. Humans, however, have the ability to think through to their consequences and I feel, after a certain age in life, this should be a paramount principle in one's conduct. Mistakes will always happen, but when people are thoughtful, everyone knows that their mistake is an honest one. This woman couldn't be bothered...

Again, Parelli, I feel, helped foster her narrow focus on horsemanship. It's my opinion and the link I was trying to make. There are many, many people out there who feel the same way and who have worked with/been exposed to many other horsemanship styles, such as George Morris, J. Wofford, pony club, etc (they touch on barn management, etc. often in their clinics), horsemen who reference many OTHER horsemen from all walks of life in their clinics (-- and that's not to say that these guys aren't hole-free. No one is.) The point is that these guys when teaching go beyond themselves and encourage exposure to others . It is her responsibility to stay 'broad,' but she is trueblue Parelli-ist, in spite of the repeated mishaps, shall we say, with her horse and his periodic difficulties for other people who have to handle him. She also imposes Parelli stuff on anyone who pauses by her stall for longer than 15 seconds. And everyone kind of melts away as a way to get away.

[JB]

Ok, this will be my last comment on this thread to you, but here goes:

You are missing the entire point of most of this. The issue is the person didn't think of the correct thing to do, either because she didn't know, didn't care, or thought what she did was the correct thing.

ANYbody could have done that. Someone who has never been exposed to people who teach overall management practices wouldn't know how a solitary horse might react. That is not something that is restricted to one who follows PNH via books and videos. There are endless books and videos out there that do not cover overall management, none of which have a thing to do with Parelli. Any person following only those media could have put you/your horse in that situation.

I HIGHLY doubt you'd have gone on this rant of "Centered Riding - Rant, some idiot border who only read CR books and watches Sally Swift videos did blah blah blah and now my horse is hurt, it's all Sally's fault."

:rolleyes:

[cyberbay]

Not to go on and on... but yes, there were several witnesses to my horse running. They were dismayed. And one of the boarders shot off to get a staff person to bring him in.

I'm not sure why so many people have thought my horse gets frantic in turnout. He is totally calm, but does not like to be left alone. This is understood by the barn staff and they are OK with it. He ceratinly isn't the only horse in the barn like this. So, if the situation ever comes up where he's going to be alone, they just bring him in. As it is, he's rarely out alone, given that the group is a 3 horse group. We're all cool with that. Why is this method being seen as so bizarre, and why do so many people think that this procedure was not in place?

JB- you and I will have to disagree. You're putting in the category of honest mistake, and I am not. She was no kid, so even if she didn't have the direct experience, she should know enough to think "is this going to be OK?"
And also, if you don't believe my answer, re: C. riding, why do you even ask? I find that really so rude and so disrespectful. Why do you even log onto the thread if it angers you so? It did say 'Rant,' you know.

[Coppers mom]

G'herme -- I never said that the other woman was responsible for my horse. Never said that -- pls. find me the quote? What I am saying is that she has a responsibility to do her best to conduct herself and handle her horse in a way that hopefully does not lead to harm for anyone else's horse and other people. Can you explain why that is an offensive outlook?


Since when is taking a horse out to ride something that's going to cause harm to someone else's horse? How is she not responsible for your horse, but responsible for making sure your horse doesn't get hurt when she does something perfectly normal? That doesn't even make sense.

If you still think that you're not being irrational, go see a lawyer and see how fast he laughs you out of his office. This woman didn't do a thing wrong, and no matter how much you want to blame her perceived screw up on PP, he has nothing to do with it either. Your horse is herdbound, that's not her problem, it's yours. Fix it by moving him or getting him a buddy and move on.

It's not her fault, it's the barn staffs and your fault. Theirs for not bringing your horse in when he was running, and yours for not putting him in a boarding situation where the staff would take proper care of him.

[Ambrey]

G'herme -- I never said that the other woman was responsible for my horse. Never said that -- pls. find me the quote? What I am saying is that she has a responsibility to do her best to conduct herself and handle her horse in a way that hopefully does not lead to harm for anyone else's horse and other people. Can you explain why that is an offensive outlook?

So what do you call it when you blame your horse's injury on not only another boarder's momentary lapse of etiquette, but her entire training program?

Sh&t happens. I mean, seriously. If your horse is so fragile, expecting others to take the kind of responsibility you are expecting this person to take seems kind of... well, irresponsible. Other people have their own lives and their own worries, they aren't always thinking about whether your horse is going to run himself ragged if they go for a ride- nor should you expect that of them.

If the cost to your horse of another person's momentary forgetfulness is so severe, you need to not put him in that situation.

[cyberbay]

Well, Ambrey, it's not momentary forgetfulness... it's a real breach where I come from to not know this. because there would have been no problem, no strain for her to quickly be sure that the horse were going to be OK with her moving her horse. That's all. She has a responsibility to make sure her actions don't hurt others, as best she can.

It would have taken 30 sec. to locate someone to help bring in my horse. Staff is right there. No extra effort on her part. The people I associate with and I work with in the horse world, we all come from years of gaining experience and knowledge. I know you and I won't see eye to eye on this, but this is basic knowledge. And not momentary forgetfulness. It's kind of like not knowing what a stop sign is for. Momentary forgetfulness is leaving the hose running while filling an outside tub. No one gets hurt, and we all do it, in spite of the rubber band on our finger!

What do I call this? I call it thoughlessness, rude, and potentially dangerous... and a potential indication of little care for the wellbeing of horses in general.

[dalpal]

Well, Ambrey, it's not momentary forgetfulness... it's a real breach where I come from to not know this. because there would have been no problem, no strain for her to quickly be sure that the horse were going to be OK with her moving her horse. That's all. She has a responsibility to make sure her actions don't hurt others, as best she can.

It would have taken 30 sec. to locate someone to help bring in my horse. Staff is right there. No extra effort on her part. The people I associate with and I work with in the horse world, we all come from years of gaining experience and knowledge. I know you and I won't see eye to eye on this, but this is basic knowledge. And not momentary forgetfulness. It's kind of like not knowing what a stop sign is for. Momentary forgetfulness is leaving the hose running while filling an outside tub. No one gets hurt, and we all do it, in spite of the rubber band on our finger!

What do I call this? I call it thoughlessness, rude, and potentially dangerous... and a potential indication of little care for the wellbeing of horses in general.


So if the staff is right there, why didn't one of the staff members voluntarily walk out and get your horse?????? I guess Pat Parelli was channeling them to stay away. :confused:

[chaltagor]

What do I call this? I call it thoughlessness, rude, and potentially dangerous... and a potential indication of little care for the wellbeing of horses in general.

On this part, I agree with you. Even though it wasn't her idea to put the horses together, and not her fault that your horse acts the way he does, that doesn't excuse her carelessness. Saying "Oh well, not my problem!" while the horse runs around in a panic and not asking the barn help to intercede is heartless and ignorant. I wouldn't do that to a horse as I care about horses no matter who their owner is. If a horse was in a panic I would notify the barn staff. That's what they're there for.

edit: If she knew the horse was going to be in a panic then yes she should have gotten them beforehand and yes she's a twat.

[Coppers mom]

Why should she have gone out of her way to look after your horse when taking a horse out of the pasture is not generally considered dangerous? She owes you no apology, she did nothing wrong. Barn staff was supposedly alerted, so blame them, if anyone. They're the ones who are supposed to be taking care of your horse while you're absent. What's so hard to understand about that? The people you're paying let your horse down, not someone with a carrot stick.

[trubandloki]

Rudeness....an interesting choice of words, cyberbay.


I honestly do not consider this even so far as a momentary lapse of judgment. If this person had left the gate open, or some other similar type action then sure, a momentary lapse of judgment.
All they did was remove their horse from the pasture and take it to ride.
That is not selfish, that is not rude, that is not wrong.

And if all these people saw your horse running around instantly (so you can say you know that your horse reacted immediately so this person should have KNOWN there would be an issue) then your horse was brought inside in the same amount of time as it would have if the PP had told the workers herself.

Most people make choices on what they know. This person, if what you say is factual, knows your horse is fine when they remove their horse from the paddock. You said this set up has always worked in the past (because there was a 3rd horse, I realize). This person, using common sense, would assume that this time removing their horse would be like every other time they removed their horse.

You are not letting your hatred for this person push aside long enough to realize this is not their fault and stuff like this happens with horses.

[RedMare01]

I'm not sure why so many people have thought my horse gets frantic in turnout. He is totally calm, but does not like to be left alone. This is understood by the barn staff and they are OK with it. He ceratinly isn't the only horse in the barn like this. So, if the situation ever comes up where he's going to be alone, they just bring him in. As it is, he's rarely out alone, given that the group is a 3 horse group. We're all cool with that. Why is this method being seen as so bizarre, and why do so many people think that this procedure was not in place?


Obviously the procedure was not in place, because the third horse was not out. :confused: :confused:

And how do you know that she didn't know the third horse was not with your horse in the pasture somewhere? Is the pasture small enough that she could see all of it? If there were other people around, including workers, perhaps she thought they would automatically get your horse.

This whole thread is just...beyond description.

Caitlin

[Saidapal]

Does this cast any clarity on my original post? You may not agree, but that's OK.


Actually, no.

When I was still boarding my youngster he would hook up with anybody stalled next to him. He would get horribly attached. A few times he tried to crawl out of the stall because his neighbor was out being ridden and I got a couple frantic phone calls about his behavior. Sure it was annoying, but hey, MY horse was the nut job, not hers.

The last thing I would do is complain because she came to ride her horse and left mine alone.

Sorry, I just don't get it.

[JB]

And one of the boarders shot off to get a staff person to bring him in.
And if the person who brought her horse in had done the same thing, but your horse still (re)injured himself, would you be ranting here?

I'm not sure why so many people have thought my horse gets frantic in turnout. He is totally calm, but does not like to be left alone.
So he DOES get frantice in turnout...when left alone. No horse is frantic-proof in turnout. Ever.

This is understood by the barn staff and they are OK with it. He ceratinly isn't the only horse in the barn like this. So, if the situation ever comes up where he's going to be alone, they just bring him in. As it is, he's rarely out alone, given that the group is a 3 horse group. We're all cool with that. Why is this method being seen as so bizarre, and why do so many people think that this procedure was not in place?
The *barn staff* is aware of that. What the boarder? Why should she have to be aware of that? Would it be nice, sure, but then you would be expecting every boarder to be aware of every idiosynchracy of every horse there. Not gonna happen. If the *barn staff* was aware of that, where were they when the boarder left your horse alone?

JB- you and I will have to disagree. You're putting in the category of honest mistake, and I am not.
No, I am not putting it in the category of honest mistake. An honest mistake means someone wasn't knowledgeable enough to not cause the mistake, or that a mistake happens despite best efforts. I clearly indicated it could have been because she didn't care, or chose to ignore the situation. Nobody here knows what the real deal is, we only know that you are assuming it was a "knowing it would cause a problem and chose to ignore" because she follows Parelli.

She was no kid, so even if she didn't have the direct experience, she should know enough to think "is this going to be OK?"
See above re: barn staff vs boarders' knowledge of horses' idiosynchracies. Should she think "is this going to be ok if I take my horse out of his stall and leave that horse as the only horse in that aisle?" Or "is this going to be ok if I turn on the clippers here at my end of the aisle and there's a horse being tacked up at the other end of the aisle?"

And also, if you don't believe my answer, re: C. riding, why do you even ask? I find that really so rude and so disrespectful. Why do you even log onto the thread if it angers you so? It did say 'Rant,' you know.
First you said she got her horse out to ride, then you ranted about how she never rode. Which is it?

I got involved in this thread because of the absurdity of your stated connection between what she did and Parelli. So did everyone else posting here. I find it troublesome that you cannot see that what transpired has happened before, will happen again, at barns all over the country, and have and will have NOTHING to do with Parelli. It is an incident in and of itself, with a barn/boarding/boarder system that failed, or didn't have the right parts in place to begin with. That is all.

In all of this, have you decided what *you* will do to make sure this doesn't happen again, since apparently the barn staff, who supposedly knew the deal, didn't prevent it from happening?

[JB]

It would have taken 30 sec. to locate someone to help bring in my horse. Staff is right there.
If the staff was "right there", and supposedly knew the deal with your herdbound horse, why did they allow him to be left alone in the pasture? THAT is the problem.

The people I associate with and I work with in the horse world, we all come from years of gaining experience and knowledge.
Trust me, you didn't have years of experience and knowledge your whole life. You would choose to not associated with someone just getting into horses? How on earth are those people supposed to learn?

[Ambrey]

On this part, I agree with you. Even though it wasn't her idea to put the horses together, and not her fault that your horse acts the way he does, that doesn't excuse her carelessness. Saying "Oh well, not my problem!" while the horse runs around in a panic and not asking the barn help to intercede is heartless and ignorant. I wouldn't do that to a horse as I care about horses no matter who their owner is. If a horse was in a panic I would notify the barn staff. That's what they're there for.

You said she didn't notice your horse was there- that's a momentary lapse, not a purposeful decision to do something dangerous. Your story seems to be changing, from "she didn't notice" to "she watched my horse run himself lame and did nothing!"

She claimed she didn't know he was out there, even though his leadrope was tied to the fence... right next to her horse's leadrope.

Not noticing that your horse was out alone, or noticing but forgetting to tell someone to bring him in, is a momentary lapse, not proof of a heartless ignoramus. Not noticing a leadrope there is hardly a federal offense.

[trubandloki]

Not noticing a leadrope there is hardly a federal offense.

So very true!

I know of a barn that almost always has lead ropes hanging on all the gates. Even when there are no horses turned out. Sometimes there are horses out and no lead ropes.

[Guilherme]

G'herme -- I never said that the other woman was responsible for my horse. Never said that -- pls. find me the quote? What I am saying is that she has a responsibility to do her best to conduct herself and handle her horse in a way that hopefully does not lead to harm for anyone else's horse and other people. Can you explain why that is an offensive outlook?

Of course you've blamed the other woman. And the barn staff. And Parelli. And likely the Lord God Almightly. The only person you've not blamed is YOUSELF.

And the person you see in the mirror is the person responsible for the injury to your horse.

G.

[RG Equestrian]

Of course you've blamed the other woman. And the barn staff. And Parelli. And likely the Lord God Almightly. The only person you've not blamed is YOUSELF.

And the person you see in the mirror is the person responsible for the injury to your horse.

G.

Like a wise man named Michael Jackson once said: "I'm starting with the Man in the Mirror"

[slc2]

"OP you're crazy"

N....not exactly. Parelli-ites do seem to have a very, very different way of looking at things, and do actually tend to do very, very odd things, some of them extremely dangerous or risky or just plain old unpleasant for other people, and the justification is always some wit or wisdom that's come out of Parelli's mouth, such as the OP's horse shouldn't get freaked when his pasture mate leaves, and having him tear around and make him sore is good for him, a learning experience.

What I would say is, that such dumb behavior isn't unique to Parelli cult followers...your average incosiderate, opinionated asshat with no Parelli training is fairly likely to do same.

It's a more general attitude, that so and so's horse, so and so doesn't know what they're doing, so let's just give them a little lesson that they deserve.

Normally thinking people would see the horse running around and bring it in to the barn, since most horse usually settle down in their stalls (unless the barn is empty, then they're at least a little safer than running around outside).

I'd also say, OP, if your horse is at a two horse barn, and you and the other rider never ride together, and the main place to ride is away from the pasture, eventually, your 'fragile' horse is going to get sore.

Too, if he gets sore from trotting the fence line a little (vs hours of screaming and tearing around), er..you have him in the wrong situation.

If your horse is really fragile, you should have him at a different barn, with a different arrangement. Horses with bad stifles can't be allowed to 'buddy up' too close in a pasture or every time the other horse goes someplace they're going to freak out. Often, with such a horse, a barn where his stall mate often changes but there are always other horse sin the barn where he can see them, and where he goes out in a paddock by himself, he won't get so anxious.

To those who feel the need to chide the OP or diss her horse because her horse gets excited when the other horse leaves, forget it. Some horses are like that and many can't be changed; the key is that you have to keep them in an appropriate situation where that tendency won't wind up hurting them.

[cyberbay]

This is a 25-horse barn, on 100 acres. Not a 2-horse barn. Of course, SLC, if my horse were really stifle-y, he would be in a medical paddock. I mean, well, duh.

G'herme: I think I find you rude. There is no need to get so harsh, or so personal. Why are you SO angry about this thread? Why do you care SO much? I mean, what about you taking a look in the mirror about your need to bash? What is being achieved here by your approach. I am not blaming the barn staff. Where did I say that? I am talking about a woman who wouldn't even employ basic LIFE skills of checking in on whether or not her actions might be a problem. When you're not sure, it's the courteous, respectful thing to do. No other way, in my opinion.

Trubandloki: No. At this barn, a leadrope on the fenceboard absolutely unequivocally means a horse in the paddock. I know what you mean, with pony kids and the barn puppy leaving lead ropes every place imaginable. But not here. The guys at this barn are not going to walk all the way down to the far pastures and find no lead rope to bring in with. A leadrope per horse is always attached to the fence. And, again, it's an agree to disagree. In my training, and in my further experience, you always keep an eye out for what's going on, whether you own the place or are a boarder. If I see a horse running the fence line (not 'running,' as in having a fun canter around the field, as somebody so unbelievably thought I meant.), I would report it immediately to the staff.

And I would watch it on your use of the word 'hatred.' It is completely inappropriate.

Ambrey: Well, a 'momentary lapse'... Not the innocuous thing you cast it here, not when it comes to horses. A 'momentary lapse' around horses, with their size, their mass, their temperament, is not really acceptable. You can get indignant, but a momentary lapse can lead to terrible injury or even death. If you've handled or been around regular horses, high-end performance horses, eccentric horses, frightened horses, you'll know how fast it can turn. Given this Parelli person's track record (which does inform my OP), her choices around the barn have me paying special attn. when she and the horse are on the aisle. I'm not saying one should be on pins and needles, but attention around horses... well, there's no other way, imo.

JB: I totally hear you about people gaining horse skills. With children, who don't have the life experience to double check their behavior, that's one thing. But, this adult did not even employ basic LIFE skills for this, to know to check if something was OK to do. That isn't a horse skill, it's a life skill and being respectful of others. This approach gives one a great way to get started in handling new situations. Ask. People love to help, as you know. She was oblivious, and being around horses with obliviousness is plain dangerous. And, back to Parelli, I think after all her years around horses, she should have known that leaving a horse solo (and she DID know, b/c a leadrope equals a horse) should be double-checked. But, Parelli people don't do stuff like that, I've come to experience, and that's why I have said what I've said about Parelli. I have no expectation, with even the most experienced horse people, to know all the answers all the time, BUT I do have the expectation of people knowing to ask, "Is this OK to do?" It's just plain courtesy, and this woman should have employed that, given her supposed experience around horses.

OF COURSE I would not have ranted if the one who 'shot off' to get the barn staff was this same boarder. Because that would have been the right thing to do! She was being responsible in her actions, so who can quibble with that?

No. IMO, you don't have to worry about every horse's idiosyncracies in a barn. Because if you approach an 'unknown' horse with caution, good horsemanship skills, and gentleness, you'll find out in 0.5 sec. if the horse doesn't like to be fly sprayed, without having your shoulder dislocated. Good horsemanship will get you a good start when in the 'unknown' department around a particular horse. As it happens, my horse and her horse have been turned out together for months, so we know a little bit about each other's horses.

<<Should she think "is this going to be ok if I take my horse out of his stall and leave that horse as the only horse in that aisle?" Or "is this going to be ok if I turn on the clippers here at my end of the aisle and there's a horse being tacked up at the other end of the aisle?>>
Yes. IMO, one should act with that degree of caution around horses (if I'm understanding the point of your examples). Anything can happen. Horses are sensory fools, as you know. I would ALWAYS check and/or ask for something, say, like clippers, for example, as the sound can be sudden and if a horse isn't paying attention, he might startle. And any other action I might undertake with the potential for equine misunderstanding. What's 8 seconds to inquire, vs. the mess of a freakout?

<<So he DOES get frantice in turnout...when left alone. No horse is frantic-proof in turnout. Ever.>>
I agree. Are we beginning to agree on this now?

I don't think I ranted about her riding/not riding. Can you indicate which post, and I'll look at it again?

[Coppers mom]

Cyberbay: Are you paying this woman or the barn staff to care for your horse in your absence?

[JB]

This is a 25-horse barn
So every boarder knows, or is expected to know, under what conditions each of the 25 horses is supposed to be "ok" with? Ain't gonna happen. You still haven't explained Thing One about why the barn staff, supposedly "right there", had your horse out with only one buddy, and was not paying attention to see he was going to be by himself when his buddy was taken out.


You SHOULD be looking at the barn staff more than the boarder. HOW is it every boarder's responsibility to ask if every horse in seeing distance is going to be ok if she does X, Y, or Z?

If I see a horse running the fence line (not 'running,' as in having a fun canter around the field, as somebody so unbelievably thought I meant.), I would report it immediately to the staff.
And apparently someone did. Again, how long between the time the boarder took her horse, and your horse starting to run? At what point are you expecting someone to get your horse? The minute he starts running? If so, that may be why he is the way he is about this.

JB: I totally hear you about people gaining horse skills. With children, who don't have the life experience to double check their behavior, that's one thing. But, this adult did not even employ basic LIFE skills for this, to know to check if something was OK to do. That isn't a horse skill, it's a life skill and being respectful of others.
Sorry, I still fail to see how it's the responsibility of every boarder to check to see if everything they do is ok with the 24 other horses, unless it's something really out there.

She was oblivious, and being around horses with obliviousness is plain dangerous.
How do you know she was oblivious? So far we haven't heard a thing about her other than her taking her horse from your horse's pasture.

And, back to Parelli, I think after all her years around horses, she should have known that leaving a horse solo (and she DID know, b/c a leadrope equals a horse) should be double-checked. But, Parelli people don't do stuff like that, I've come to experience, and that's why I have said what I've said about Parelli.
Give the Parelli connection a rest. It has nothing to do with Parelli. It has everything to do with her education around horses. She just happens to have a current PNH thing going on. Certainly "all her years around horses" haven't been devoted to PNH. If they have, I bet "all her years" isn't many, therefore she hasn't had all that much experience. And if she had years of "experience' before latching on to PNH, why didn't she learn these things before?

I have no expectation, with even the most experienced horse people, to know all the answers all the time, BUT I do have the expectation of people knowing to ask, "Is this OK to do?" It's just plain courtesy, and this woman should have employed that, given her supposed experience around horses.[/quote]
"is it ok if I clip my horse's legs while you're grooming your horse?"
"Is it ok if I take my horse out of his stall while yours, my horses BFF, is still in his?
"Is it ok if I throw my saddle pad on my horse, while your horse is standing there, or do I need to gently place it on his back so as not to scare your horse?"
You mean those types of questions?

OF COURSE I would not have ranted if the one who 'shot off' to get the barn staff was this same boarder. Because that would have been the right thing to do! She was being responsible in her actions, so who can quibble with that?
But wait, I thought the problem was that she took her horse out of the paddock, leaving your guy to work up a frenzy?


<<Should she think "is this going to be ok if I take my horse out of his stall and leave that horse as the only horse in that aisle?" Or "is this going to be ok if I turn on the clippers here at my end of the aisle and there's a horse being tacked up at the other end of the aisle?>>
Yes. IMO, one should act with that degree of caution around horses (if I'm understanding the point of your examples). Anything can happen. Horses are sensory fools, as you know. I would ALWAYS check and/or ask for something, say, like clippers, for example, as the sound can be sudden and if a horse isn't paying attention, he might startle. And any other action I might undertake with the potential for equine misunderstanding. What's 8 seconds to inquire, vs. the mess of a freakout?
Seriously? Ok, clippers I can understand. But even then, if a horse is SO schizo about having clippers turned on, with all the other barn noises going on, that's a problem. But on the stall thing - REALLY???

I don't think I ranted about her riding/not riding. Can you indicate which post, and I'll look at it again?[/quote]

Happy to:

A Parelli person the other day left my horse alone in the pasture when she took her horse out of it to go riding.

If she rode her horse, she would have known what an investment training can be (not saying riding is the only thing that counts, but her tiny world of experience, kept that way by Parelli-style mantras, stayed small).

You've also contradicted yourself on her experience/education. First you said her world is tiny. Now you say it's "all her years" :confused:

[danceronice]

Wow, that was nine pages of entertainment.

In the 16 years I had my horse, 11 of those he was boarded. In one case he was at a barn with one huge pasture. Everyone went out together. The other, they were all in pairs in small paddocks. In both those situations, and at the two barns I rode at in college, I only handled a horse who wasn't mine in two circumstances:

1. I was leasing the horse I was handling or I was using in him for a lesson
2. The horse belonged to the handicapped riding program for which I volunteered.

I would never have brought in someone else's horse, especially at the barn where they were in pairs, for two reasons:

1. I am there to ride and work with my horse/lease horse/lesson horse and
2. My dad is a lawyer and I know what liability is. I have not signed any contract with other boarders absolving me from all liability if I go to lead their horse in and he slips or bolts or kicks another horse or in some other way hurts himself or others. Or I put him in his stall and he hurts himself kicking the boards. I'm not getting sued. Any barn that expects boarders to routinely care for each other's horses better have a wicked good contract and massive liability insurance.

And no, unless he were crashing into things or in a frothing sweat and at it for hours, I would not particularly pay attention to a horse running and calling beyond glancing at it. My horse liked to run and flag his tail and scream at home whenever our neighbor drove his harness mule by, or the kids up the road went past on their horses, or sometimes just because he felt like running that morning.

[tikihorse2]

cyberbay--it sounds to me like your horse is as freaky as any "Parellified" horse supposedly is! ;)

I'm sorry he's hurt. Really. I hate when ANY animal is hurt. However, I honestly can't see where the other boarder did anything wrong unless it has been specifically written in her boarding contract that when her horse is turned out with yours, just the two of them, she must either A. bring your horse in B. tell barn staff to bring your horse in.

Frankly, you would never, ever catch me bringing in someone else's horse. Not for ANYTHING. I don't want to think what would happen if the horse got hurt! We all know how unpredictable horses are--just imagine if s/he got away from me and was injured! Well, imagine if your horse, excited by being separated from his pasture mate, got away from the other woman and took off for the barn, slipped, fell, and broke a leg, for example?

What if he injured the woman? She'd be well within her rights to sue you. Even if she didn't, her insurance company might.

As I said, I truly don't know why it's the other woman's fault. I think you need to be more proactive with the barn staff.

Kim

[jokersmama]

OP- Seriously?! That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

It's someone else's fault or better yet that persons choice of training styles fault that your horse has a weak stifle and ran itself lame?

Using your logic, if someone sneezes and your horse freaks out, flips over backwards and dies, it is that person's Doctors fault that your horse died?

Seems to me if you knew your horse had a fragile stifle and shouldn't run around much you would have discussed this possibility with the other boarder, especially considering your horses had been out together for months...seriously what would have happened if she had an appointment at the vet? Would that have made a difference in whose fault it was? The outcome would have been the same. Maybe your horse didn't start running until she got out of site on her ride??

I used to run a boarding barn with 25 horses at it, you never touch another boarders horse unless you are specifically asked by the owner of that horse to do so! Even then it is risky like the other posters mentioned.

Personally I think it speaks volumes for her and whatever training method she is using that she could take her horse from the field and it's "buddy" to go out riding by herself. Obviously she is doing something right...maybe you should be taking some notes from her?


This may just be the stupidest thread I have read in a very long time!

[mandalea]

Are you kidding me ?

Doing Parelli has nothing to do with this. I know. I do it.

If a horse spazzes out because he's left in a paddock by himself, then fine. That's natural. That's what happens. There is nothing you can do about it.

I would have chucked him some hay, to amuse him.

That's what we do at work.

I work at an appaloosa/tb stud, and when we take the performance horses out of the field to ride, and there are broodmares in there, we throw them some hay, otherwise they stress out, which is not good for them or their foals.

Even the most novice of horse people know that. My horse, who is head of the heard does it.

If the other 3 are moved to a different paddock, and I come out later to move him, he is sweaty and running around like a twat, because it is his herd. It is his duty to look after them. Neighbour gets the remote control car out, he charges the fence, because that's his job. He's a stalliony gelding.

And people bringing in other peoples horses - uh-ah. That is a possible lawsuit waiting to happen.

Really, OP, you disappoint me. If your horse had an injury, you should have had him in a separate yard to start with. The two horses could have potentially fought, and he could have stuffed up his leg then. Whether it was him or the other horse who started it.

And I'm sure, if she moved him, you would have posted about that. The stupid parelli person moved your horse so he would not injure himself.

Yeah. Nice. :sigh:

[katarine]

note to self: do not sell farm and start boarding again, ever.

There might be a cyberbay in the mix!

[ddashaq]

Wow, the OP sounds like the boarder from hell. Don't know what to say about the injured horse except that at the end of the day, the owner of the horse is responsible for his well being. Not another boarder, not the barn staff, just the owner. If the way that the barn operates does not work for his issues, move him. The Parelli's are idiots, but I am certain that your horse acting like a horse and hurting himself is neither their fault or your barn mates.

[zahena]

Wow. So I am bored at work today and stumbled upon this. Thanks for the 9 pages of entertainment.

I agree with everyone else. It's not the boarders responsbility to take care of your horse. Or to even notice if he's alone. She's responsible for her horse and her horse alone. I have my horse at a boarding facility and I wouldn't expect a single one of the other ladies to take my horse in for me if they went to ride anymore than I would expect them to groom and ride him for me. He's not their responsibility. He's mine. Would I call someone if I noticed their horse had a boo-boo? Sure. I do it all the time. But I wouldn't take him out of his stall and do anythign to him unless they agreed to it.

It sounds like you just don't like this particular person because she doesn't believe the same way you do. Do you have this big a dislike for people who don't believe the same religion as you?

Seriously, whomever said you were the boarder from hell had it right on the money.

[trubandloki]

note to self: do not sell farm and start boarding again, ever.

There might be a cyberbay in the mix!

:yes:

[Arcadien]

Cyberbay, I'm really sorry your horse got hurt; of course you are upset.

And I don't like Parelli either.

But I don't see how Parelli or this other boarder's actions had anything to do with your horse getting hurt in turnout.

Per GMAT scores my reading comprehension & logical interpretation skills are better than 98% of the other graduate level students. Read: if I don't get it, what you are saying probably doesn't make sense. ;)

Stop wasting time & energy insisting the moon is made of blue cheese, stop finding blame, and start looking for methods & tools to help your poor horse regain his soundness and be safer in future turnout situations - *that* will show your true horsemanship better than any thing else you could try to argue on this silly thread!

[Androcles]

I have my horse at a boarding facility and I wouldn't expect a single one of the other ladies to take my horse in for me if they went to ride anymore than I would expect them to groom and ride him for me. He's not their responsibility. He's mine.
What happens when you're not there?

I guess I never realized how lucky I am to be at a small barn where the boarders care not just about themselves, but look out for each other and each others' horses, will notify the BM if something is amiss, will notice if someone's fly sheet is undone and dangerously hanging off the horse or the strap has somehow gotten wrapped around its legs, will arrange one way or another without taking on liability and handling horses that they shouldn't be, that no horses are left out alone if they start running themselves ragged, etc. Of course, there is a long waiting list and prospective boarders must provide references.

[Cindyg]

It must be a cold day in Hell today, snowballs and all, because the COTH concensus is that SOMETHING IS NOT PARELLI'S FAULT!

LOL!

[Auventera Two]

As it happens, my horse and her horse have been turned out together for months, so we know a little bit about each other's horses.

You might look into buying a farm and keeping your horses at home. That's what I did and I've never been happier. That way everything is done exactly as I want it, and there's no worrying, no anger, no blame, nothing. It's just me and my herd.

You are obviously very frustrated that your horse is now injured, but seriously, it's no one's fault except whoever planned his pasture arrangements. The horse should have another buddy out with him if he can't be alone. It is unfair and unreasonable to expect a fellow boarder to never take her horse out of the pasture because yours can't be alone. Also, it's a hassle and unfair burden/risk to ask her to halter your horse and bring him in a stall with hay and water, then go back for her own horse. Who cleans up the mess after your horse takes a pee, and 3 poops in the stall while she's working her horse? She has to do that too? Barn staff? Is the extra hay the horse eats part of your board, or would you have to pay extra for that? What about the shavings? I just think it would be a logistical mess to try to accomodate a horse that can't be left alone. Can you pasture him in a larger herd so he is never alone?

[Androcles]

It must be a cold day in Hell today, snowballs and all, because the COTH concensus is that SOMETHING IS NOT PARELLI'S FAULT!

LOL!

But it's still a warm day in hell, because despite making clear her expectations, everyone keeps telling the OP she shuldn't expect another boarder to bring in her horse!

[trubandloki]

But it's still a warm day in hell, because despite making clear her expectations, everyone keeps telling the OP she shuldn't expect another boarder to bring in her horse!

Where does the OP say the PP was told by the OP that she should bring her horse in if it was ever left out there alone? No place that I read.

[Androcles]

Where does the OP say the PP was told by the OP that she should bring her horse in if it was ever left out there alone? No place that I read.

Nowhere. That's the point. She never said she thought the PP should bring in her horse, yet everyone keeps telling her the PP shouldn't be expected to bring in her horse.

[trubandloki]

Nowhere. That's the point. She never said she thought the PP should bring in her horse, yet everyone keeps telling her the PP shouldn't be expected to bring in her horse.

You misread what I wrote.

But anyway....

The OP has said time and time again that she felt the PP should have done something. It is not good enough that another boarder pointed out that the horse was upset. It had to be PP that told the worker the horse was upset.

[Antaeus]

...

Can you pasture him in a larger herd so he is never alone?


Still no guarantee the OP's horse wouldn't get upset if he got attached to a horse that left the pasture. My 2 yo filly is much more attched to one of the horses than all the others. Late yesterday my Hub took Big John roping. For some reason, this time when he left the filly screemed/hollered/ran around/paced for 30 minutes - even tho she was out with her three other friends and could run up and touch noses with two other horses in their adjoining corrals. Even after feeding time, although she stopped the other behviors, she'd call out every ten minutes or so. My thinking: She just has to get used to a buddy leaving, cuz it's gonna happen off and on throughout her life.

[Androcles]

You misread what I wrote.

But anyway....

The OP has said time and time again that she felt the PP should have done something. It is not good enough that another boarder pointed out that the horse was upset. It had to be PP that told the worker the horse was upset.

No, I don't think so. I think it was more a question of timing, and preventing the problem.

Nor does that have much to do with the fact that people keep telling her not to expect the boarder to bring in her horse, even though she never said she expected that.

[LuvMyTB]

My mare and her boyfriend were turned out together and stalled next to each other. When I came out to ride, he would pace and scream for her. Should I have called her every time I wanted to ride, to find out if it was okay? And if she said no, should I just not have ridden my horse?

When my mare died, the same "boyfriend" refused to eat or drink for days, instead spending his evenings staring out his window looking for her.

Should I have called his owner to ask if it was okay for my mare to colic and die, since it might upset her horse?

Seriously, OP, that is how ridiculous you sound.

[WalkInTheWoods]

cyberbay - Sorry your horse strained his stifle and hope it heals up soon. I can understand your being upset about the situation. Clueless boarder knew your horse shouldnt be turned out alone. Clueless saw 2 ropes on the fence - hers and yours - which at this barn signals there are only 2 horses in paddock. She totally didnt give a flip. Some ppl are like that - all up their own world. Someone else's horse could be on fire and they wouldnt notice.

Im trying to understand what happened that day. If she walked out to the far paddock to get her horse and saw only one other rope on the fence, that should have registered in her brain. Upon bringing her horse to the barn to tack up, she should have notified staff that your horse was out alone. So i do get your point about the depth of her horsemanship. Sorry your horse was the victim of her selfishness.

[zahena]

Androcles, to answer your question there is a on-site ranch manager who is actually a couple as well as a stable hand and the guy who owns the whole she-bang there as well. So if anything is wrong, someone sees it right away. It's just a couple of us, so if anyone farts funky, someone is there to see it and make sure that its just a funky fart and not something more serious.

I love your posts on this topic btw.

[Cindyg]

Where does the OP say the PP was told by the OP that she should bring her horse in if it was ever left out there alone? No place that I read.

The original poster clearly stated that her horse would not have been injured if the fellow boarder had not been a Parelli person.

[Androcles]

Androcles, to answer your question there is a on-site ranch manager who is actually a couple as well as a stable hand and the guy who owns the whole she-bang there as well. So if anything is wrong, someone sees it right away. It's just a couple of us, so if anyone farts funky, someone is there to see it and make sure that its just a funky fart and not something more serious.


That seems to contradict your eariler point that it's your horse and your responsibility and no one else's.

[trubandloki]

The original poster clearly stated that her horse would not have been injured if the fellow boarder had not been a Parelli person.

Very true!

I was responding to Androcles who insisted that we were putting words into the OPs mouth. I was simply saying that the OP does not say anywhere that the PP was specifically told by the OP that the PP was to bring in her horse.

The PP was just supposed to know this....

[zahena]

Well no I'm saying he's my responsbility and not the boarders. i wouldn't expect the boarders to do something with my horse without first calling me and saying "can I do such and such with snuffles" before doing it. Whereas if its the barn manager or an employee who knows my horse I can expect them to do what they feel is in his best interest because they know his history and call me if neccessary. I wouldn't put the burden on a boarder to make decisions for my horse. Although I would hope common sense would rule out.

[HenryisBlaisin']

It is possible that the other boarder didn't notify staff because the OP's horse WASN'T running until her horse was out of his sight-and she didn't see him start. It would be pretty hard to miss a horse running himself silly, but if he was grazing quietly in a corner, maybe she didn't notice him. Since the OP said that there are usually 3 horses in that turnout, the second lead rope could have as easily indicated the OTHER horse as OP's. Perhaps the boarder who told barn staff was really the first person to see him freak out-if he was quiet until other boarder was out of sight, maybe she never knew he went wild. Or maybe, she was just absorbed in her own thoughts-it happens. It sucks, but it happens. As I said before, NH doesn't automatically make someone oblivious to every other horse-the NH people I board with are some of the most conscientious horsepeople I know, and some traditional riders the most self-absorbed.

Again, what if OP's horse had been injured by running WITH the other horse because they felt good and were cutting up in turnout? Whose fault would that be? Or would it be the sad byproduct of a horse acting like a horse?

[cyberbay]

Thank you, Androcles, to re-iterate that I never said that the Parelli person was to bring in my horse. (If that is what you were saying...)Also, in the barns I've been at, it has always been the 'culture' as you were describing in your post. It's the only way to go. No one has to handle any horse or be 'stopped from riding.' It's simply courtesy and caring and being eyes and ears for the BM and everyone working together for the same end of safety and great conditions for the horses.

I have to disagree with each and every poster who says or has heavily implied that they are 'not responsible" for any other boarder's horse. I feel very strongly that if I saw something amiss with a boarder's horse, such as a possible colic, or blood, running the fenceline, etc., I would alert the barn staff immediately so that they could act upon it. Are all of you, such as you, zahena, really saying that you would walk right by a horse that was in distress and do nothing?

Again, my point: The PP had the responsibility to mention to the staff that she has brought in her horse and that meant a horse, in a group that is never out alone, was out alone. Now, please please please?? tell me how you could conclude from that suggested exchange with barn staff that this boarder was
1) responsible for hands-on bringing in of my horse.
2) that I am somehow stopping her from bringing in her horse and going riding whenever she would like.

How in the name of Zeus do you come to those conclusions?

Again: I am saying that she can go bring in her horse any ole time she wants. But, if a horse is going to be left alone, as part of responsible, solid horsemanship, she should mention the change of status in the turnout to the staff. How much effort is 10 words?

To H'Blaisin': Thanks for your clarity. In response to your 2nd para, there is an enormous distinction between horses havin' a good ole time in the pasture and one of them getting hurt doing so, and a negative situation for horses set in motion by an oblivious human. The former is called 's*** happens and that's horses" and the latter is called "lazy human stupidity." Or, your choice of words. I am sure you see the distinction??

LuvMyTB, please read the above para. to answer 'how ridiculous I sound.' I am a little stunned at how people are unable to make a ready distinction between the nature of the 2 ways to get hurt.

Thank you, WalkintheWoods. You've hit the nail on the head, and have sensed my frustration over a needless situation that left my horse the loser.

TrubandLoki: See above in this post about what I think any responsible individual should have done. I am grateful for the phone calls and e/mails from the boarders who DID get barn staff to bring in my horse and check in on his well-being and wanted to let me know what had happened -- which doesn't exactly set me up as the boarder from hell as a few other posters have tried to mislabel me -- since all the other boarders were indicating how they value not leaving a horse in an inappropriate situation.

Auvent. 2: Thank you for your courteous tone. I think your queries might be answered in the above para's?

[RHdobes563]

When my old mare was alive, she was kept at a barn where they segregated the mares and the geldings. Since there was only one other mare, my horse was put out with her.

Now, these two mares didn't really care for each other. In fact, my mare hated her but was actually a 'live and let live' kind of horse. The other mare, however, as much as she WASN'T my horse's buddy, would go absolutely ballistic and run through the fence if she were left alone by herself. This, despite the fact she could see the geldings and even touch noses with them over the fences, if desired.

However, the barn owner requested that I put this mare in a stall when I took my mare out of the pasture. It really wasn't difficult to do despite her being an ill-mannered beast.

Once, I was putting this mare back out after riding my horse. My own horse had been released in the pasture so that the witch would spend NO time alone in their pasture. After walking her out, I released her. This mare turned and DELIBERATELY let me have it with BOTH her hind feet. I went down instantly. For a short time that seemed like forever, I thought she had broken my hip, I was in so much pain. Thankfully, my "padding" in that area saved me from broken bones.

If I had left that mare in the pasture, and she tore down the fences, would I be guilty of bad horse management? Or was the barn owner guilty for asking me to bring the mare in? Or was the mare's owner guilty for 'allowing' such behavior?

Lest you think the mare was just 'feeling good', on another occasion, I'd seen her grazing quietly with my horse, getting closer, and then---wham! Turn and kick my mare and then DANCE AWAY. She knew what she was doing, and it was malicious. She also broke the little finger on my right hand by forcing herself between my mare and me when I was leading my mare.

I have to say that I got an immense amount of satisfaction many weeks later on a calm and balmy day. The two mares were grazing, a serene scene. The other mare moved a little closer to my mare and then---WHAM! WHAM! My mare quickly swung about and let go with a couple of POWERFUL kicks to the broadside of her pasture-mate, practically lifting her off the ground. The 'oomph' of lost breath was audible; she never saw it coming. My mare had waited ("vengence is a dish best served cold") until the perfect moment.

Then, my mare went back to grazing peacefully. BY GOD, my mare never STARTED fights, but she sure as heck FINISHED them!!

[Coppers mom]

Cyberbay- What's it matter if the boarder or someone else alerted the staff? The staff was notified that the horse was running by someone, and they didn't bring the horse in. The appropriate people to take care of your horse knew what was going on, and they failed to take bring the horse in. Therefore, it's the barn staffs fault. Regardless of who told them, they didn't do what they were being paid to do. I would take this up with the barn staff, not the boarder.

[Ajierene]

so...following cyberbay's logic....

....when I take my field boarded mare out to ride her, her field board buddy gets rather upset. I do not inform the barn owner, I do not do anything to alleviate the situation - such as temporarily putting her back in her old field with two other horses. I ignore her and her antics and go ride my horse in the ring that is out of site of the field. I come back and she has done some running and pacing, possibly calmed down a bit...starts whinnying and running again as soon as she sees her BFF. What she does while I am riding, I don't know. I don't care. It is not my job to take care of that mare.

Apparently, this means I follow Parelli....

If the horse in question has an issue where they are likely to get hurt if they run around, they should be in an environment where they are least likely to run around, which could include - small turnout area, fieldmates that do not run, fieldmates that are guaranteed to be in there at all times, less turnout etc. Putting a horse in a field far from the barn, where he has separation issues is not a good scenario for a horse with a medical issue where running around will cause injury. The situation that this horse was in was not ideal and it is not the fault of the other boarder that this horse was put in a less than ideal situation that made removing a fieldmate such an issue.

[Guilherme]

Again: I am saying that she can go bring in her horse any ole time she wants. But, if a horse is going to be left alone, as part of responsible, solid horsemanship, she should mention the change of status in the turnout to the staff. How much effort is 10 words?

No, she has no such duty. If she chooses to do so then all well and good. It's not any reflection on her ability as an equine husbandryman, rider, owner, or anything else if she does not.

G.

[Huntertwo]

cyberbay,
Still trying to figure out if you're a troll or not..:rolleyes: Your posts and illogical thoughts are so far off the wall, it is hard to tell if you truly believe that the other boarder is responsible for your horse's actions or you're just trying to stir the pot here.

In fact I thought of your post as I was leaving my boarding stable today. I give my mare who has Uveitis lunch hay daily. I give it to her in her stall to avoid sunlight any chance I can. She has an in-and-out stall.

Her fence line pasture mate only has a turnout and he has bonded with her. The horse on the other side of him was out on a trail ride with his owner. Yes, the nerve of her...tsk tsk

I gave her two flakes of hay in her stall and as I was leaving, the other horse was calling out to her and walking a little more briskly as he couldn't see her and his other fence line buddy was gone too.

What was I supposed to do? Bring him in...sit in my truck for two hours waiting for my mare to finish her hay, then put him back out? The BO wasn't around, (she does have a life too)

Put him in his stall at noon and go home? Only to have a pissed off owner wondering why her horse has been sitting in a stall all day?

Can't you just call it an accident and stop blaming the other horse owner? :no:

[BornToRide]

I cannot believe this thread is still going :lol:

[JoZ]

I have to disagree with each and every poster who says or has heavily implied that they are 'not responsible" for any other boarder's horse. I feel very strongly that if I saw something amiss with a boarder's horse, such as a possible colic, or blood, running the fenceline, etc., I would alert the barn staff immediately so that they could act upon it. Are all of you, such as you, zahena, really saying that you would walk right by a horse that was in distress and do nothing?

Two different things are being discussed in this paragraph.

1) If I saw a horse in any sort of compromising situation, of course I would alert someone.

2) If I was on my phone, or talking to a friend, or concentrating on my horse, and I DIDN'T NOTICE the horse in distress, I am not at fault for this.

3) And do you know why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!! No barn should be run based on the possiblity that boarders will notice and act upon things... we are the paying customers, and if I want to be totally focused on my horse or my riding, either all or some of the time, that is just FINE. Still doesn't mean I would fail to react to something I did see. And it doesn't mean I follow Parelli either.

Gah.

[mp]

Two different things are being discussed in this paragraph.

1) If I saw a horse in any sort of compromising situation, of course I would alert someone.

2) If I was on my phone, or talking to a friend, or concentrating on my horse, and I DIDN'T NOTICE the horse in distress, I am not at fault for this.

3) And do you know why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!! No barn should be run based on the possiblity that boarders will notice and act upon things... we are the paying customers, and if I want to be totally focused on my horse or my riding, either all or some of the time, that is just FINE. Still doesn't mean I would fail to react to something I did see. And it doesn't mean I follow Parelli either.

Gah.

I was riding my mare at the barn, where we have night turnout (which I don't think is a good idea, but it's up to the individual owners). It was in the evening and usually there are very few people around. We'd finished our ring work and were just having a relaxing meander around the turnout pens. One of the turnout horses was agitated -- hollering and walking/trotting the fence. I noticed her neighbor was gone, but there were other horses in the adjacent pens, just standing around munching hay.

Should I have stopped and done "something"? Should the owner who moved neighbor horse have done "something"? To be honest, it didn't even cross my mind. If the upset horse had been in real distress or danger, I would have rousted out the asst. barn manager, who lives on property. I just figured the horse would continue fussing and hollering until she got tired and then settle down.

Will I now be suspected of being a Parelli follower? Should I have "known" agitated mare is stalled across from her turnout neighbor during the day and she has a major crush on him?

Gah is right. Now I have to rethink my whole attitude and decision-making processes when it comes to OPH -- other people's horses.

[LuvMyTB]

I can't believe this thread is still going either--and I REALLY can't believe I'm still posting on it. :lol:

Cyberbay--since you have spoken with all of these other "dismayed" boarders, who alerted the barn staff to your horse running, can you answer a few questions?

1. How long was the horse running for? Did he commence running immediately as the PP's horse left the pasture?

2. How long did it take for the barn staff to retrieve him from the pasture?

3. Why didn't the barn staff notice that either the PP's horse was out and/or that your horse was alone? Per your posts, staff is "right there."

4. How far away is your horse's turnout from the barn? You say it would take "no time" for the PP to request "help" in bringing your horse in, yet you also say that the barn staff are not going to "walk all the way to the pasture" without a leadrope.

5. Have you confirmed with the PP that she, in fact, was fully aware that the 3rd horse was not in the field, and that she was fully aware that the horse was running himself to injury?

I have boarded at a few different barns with varying degrees of staff/BO attention, care, etc and varying numbers of horses. I have alerted BOs to everything from missing flymasks and sunburned noses to swollen knees and bleeding wounds and "gee, that horse hasn't pooped yet and it's 10pm, maybe you ought to check him out." But I DAMN sure never stopped what I was doing because of what someone else's horse was doing. Ain't got the time, sorry.

[rabicon]

Wow, I'm really late and missed this one. :lol: I can't read thru 11 pages but as I skimmed IMO its not the boarders fault. If she wants to work her horse she shouldn't have to be at the mercy of your horses behavior. Nor should you hers.

[Huntertwo]

Originally Posted by cyberbay http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4250346#post4250346)
I have to disagree with each and every poster who says or has heavily implied that they are 'not responsible" for any other boarder's horse. I feel very strongly that if I saw something amiss with a boarder's horse, such as a possible colic, or blood, running the fenceline, etc., I would alert the barn staff immediately so that they could act upon it. Are all of you, such as you, zahena, really saying that you would walk right by a horse that was in distress and do nothing?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course I would alert someone if I saw a possible colic, injured horse etc.

The above scenarios are NOT what happened to your horse. A boarder simply took her horse out of the pasture - your horse got upset and ran around. Period.

How do you know for certain that she DID see him running the fence line or are you just assuming that she did? Can you prove that?

Again, if this was happening - it is the barn workers fault for not bringing them in. What part do you not get???? :confused: