Feeding disagreement with BO

[cali]

Right off the bat I will admit I am a noob. However, I have very experienced and knowledgeable friends that I seek advice from.

In a nutshell, the BO is saying my daughter's horse is obese and is cutting her feed (which really isn't the greatest quality) in half. Horse is on pasture 24/7 (again, not great quality pasture) and gets 1 three quart scoop twice a day. She is normally worked 3-5 days a week but has been worked only 1-2 days for the last six weeks due to a scheduling thing with daughter. This week however, the horse will be resuming regular work.

To my untrained eye the horse looks good. To experienced friends she looks good but may be carrying a tiny bit of extra weight due to the light work for last six weeks. They feel that upon resuming normal work the little extra will drop rapidly.

Now, in my opinion, (friends agree) BO keeps her horses too light. Way too light. As such, I think her POV is skewed to lighter horses.

Would you push back and insist on the full ration? Or, would you wait and see if she drops with the heavier work on the 1/2 ration?

Thanks!

[ThoroughbredFancy]

If she was in good weight previously on the same ration and the amount of work you're going to work up to I'd keep her right where her feed is.

Even if you're going to cut the feed I wouldn't cut it in half. Maybe lessen it a small amount but not just in half.

If she's not obese, cresty neck, fatty deposits etc. I wouldn't worry. If she's going into heavier work it will come off and she'll get to a fit weight again.

I rather have to work off a few extra pounds then have to add some. Then again I have a TB who is quite the hard keeper. :D

[SMF11]

There is no way to get good advice on this board without at a minimum some pictures of the horse. It could be that your horse *is* obese. It could be that the BO is starving her horses. I cannot tell from your post what is going on. I think you need to call your vet and get their opinion. If it turns out your horse is fine and the BO's are too skinny then that's a vet bill that is well worth paying -- you will know that your barn is not a good place for your horse. However, if the vet confirms your horse is fat, that would also be good to know, and good to know you can trust your BO's opinion, perhaps more than your friends'.

[stryder]

Also depends on where you are, and the temperature. No horse deserves to be pudgy right now in some parts of the country, because it's too hot. Add heavy work on top of that, and it's just mean.

But I agree that cutting in half is too radical.

[BuddyRoo]

Check this out.

http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/1010.htm

Where is your horse?

Some people (especially those with horses who could be prone to laminitis, IR, Cushings, etc) prefer to keep their horse at a 4. Some people are fine with a 6.

Below 4 is too skinny to me and above 6 is not good either.

If your horse was being worked consistently and now isn't and is gaining weight, then reducing feed is smart until such time that the horse needs the additional calories again. Many horses in light to moderate work don't NEED any grain at all if they have sufficient forage.

[pony89]

See, I am coming from the other perspective with a horse who is a super easy keeper, and I feel like it's a lot easier to up the rations if the horse needs it later. I feel like it is very unhealthy for animals to be overweight, and like to see my mare a little more fit and trim.

Have you had a recent vet exam? Did the vet tell you what your horse's body condition was? I like my mare to be a 4 or 5. If the vet told me it was a 6, I'd be cutting back her food. If your experienced friends say she is maybe a little heavy, I'd talk to the BO about cutting back to 3/4, rather than 1/2. Or go to 1/2, and ask for more hay. I agree about calling the vet out. You'll have an experienced opinion, you'll have orders from the vet to back you up if vet says don't cut rations, and you will know if this barn is right for you. Even if BO acquiesces this time, if you have different standards, it will come up again and again.

[cali]

Thanks for the input. The vet saw her about 6 weeks ago and said she looked great..this was right before the horse went on the light schedule.
If the vet is going to be back up in the area in the next week or two, I will have him come out.

I am linking to pics--they were taken 11 days ago. BO said horse was obese 2 days before these were taken.

http://img177.imageshack.us/i/resize3.jpg/
http://img107.imageshack.us/i/resize1j.jpg/
http://img197.imageshack.us/i/resize2d.jpg/

Thanks again

edited to add: This mare is an easy keeper. However, she just turned 16 and I don't want to start playing catch-up on her weight as she gets older.

[goldponies]

Yup, your mare is fat.

[fooler]

Heavy but not obese.

Provided your daughter resumes normal riding schedule I would suggest to the BO that you wait a month before adjusting feed. That should take care of your pony's extra weight. If not then the BO can reduce the feed as needed. Such as TWO quarts twice a day instead of three quarts twice a day.

[Milocalwinnings]

Your mare is not obese, but she does look a bit on the heavier side. See how she does with work and adjust the feed as needed after that... I wouldn't cut it now though if she'll be in heavier work soon.

[Foxtrot's]

Her tummy is tucked up - she's chubby, but looks ok - with more work it should take care of itself. If not take a little of her ration away - not half - that is a lot. You are not expecting her to be a three-day eventer are you? I'm actually trying to diet my horse right now and the worry is to keep her gut working with a little feed fed often, but not too much at any one time. Since she stopped growing the weight is going on, even though the work is ramping up.

[cali]

Her tummy is tucked up - she's chubby, but looks ok - with more work it should take care of itself. If not take a little of her ration away - not half - that is a lot. You are not expecting her to be a three-day eventer are you? I'm actually trying to diet my horse right now and the worry is to keep her gut working with a little feed fed often, but not too much at any one time. Since she stopped growing the weight is going on, even though the work is ramping up.

Speaking to the bolded part..Gosh no! Her rider is only 11 years old. The mare's work consists of a little arena jumping, a little cross country, a local show now and again, and a whole lot of cantering and trotting around the property playing with other young girls and their horses.

Thanks to all for your comments. It helps to get a non-biased POV.

[Luckydonkey]

She looks like a big bodied mare should look- I would not call her obese, She looks good, in my opinion.

[Woodland]

Thanks for the input. The vet saw her about 6 weeks ago and said she looked great..this was right before the horse went on the light schedule.
If the vet is going to be back up in the area in the next week or two, I will have him come out.

I am linking to pics--they were taken 11 days ago. BO said horse was obese 2 days before these were taken.

http://img177.imageshack.us/i/resize3.jpg/
http://img107.imageshack.us/i/resize1j.jpg/
http://img197.imageshack.us/i/resize2d.jpg/

Thanks again

edited to add: This mare is an easy keeper. However, she just turned 16 and I don't want to start playing catch-up on her weight as she gets older.

Too me your horse - based on these pictures - is not fat but truly lacks conditioning. She would be about perfect in my book - but mine, like yours, are stock horse breeds that tend to run a bit beefier.

I would not halve her ration. I would work on her conditioning instead.

As a BO I would respect my clients decision to maintain full rations. If your mare gets any heavier without proper conditioning she will be in danger of becoming ill. So I am balancing your question solely based on your intention to condition her.

[pandorasboxx]

A bit fat and lacking condition but not obese.

[tpup]

I'm no expert but she certainly doesn't look fat to me. She looks just right minus the conditioning part....but I don't see her being fat at all!

I would wait to adjust anything until her workload is back to more normal for her.

[JRG]

I too think she is on the heavy side. I would cut her back, and add back as her work load increases.

Since you are not familiar, I would suggest take a simple measuring tape and measure around her in three places 1)at the base of her withers where the girth would be around her barrel. 2) measure about 10 inches along the spine and measure around the barrel and 3)10 more inches around again.

These measurements will give you a base line to start with. Measure every week and keep track. You will be able to disern if she is gaining or losing weight and by how much.

Your horse doesn't seem like she has a lot of muscle and isn't using herself very much in her work, I doubt she will drop too much weight when work resumes. Cutting back will lessen the small chances of coming up with other health problems from being over weight or from getting too many groceries.

[caballus]

Best bet is to have a conversation with your vet.

[Dianna]

First of all, for me, the mare doesn't look anywhere near fat. If she were fat, since the BO is in charge of feed, she should have been tweaking her feed along the way, which she didn't.

If the horse isn't acting like she has "burn off" energy due to the reduced work (i.e. pacing or being overly silly in turnout) I probably would leave things status quo.

I would e-mail the pictures to my vet; but, in any event, the BO does not have the right to make a unilateral decision about what you horse does and does not get to eat. Newbie or not, you are the owner .. you two work as a team (as with your vet and farrier)... these people are your tools, you listen to what they have to say, you ask question and then you decide how to go from there.

If the BO wanted to adjust for lack of work, then reduce her calories by 10 to 20%, not 50%.

I wasn't able to visualize pictue No. 1, but unless it showed something different from picture nos. 2 and 3, this horse is far from fat or obese or even plump.

BTW, I am in AZ and it is 113 degrees here ... we don't necessarily cut back on anything, though we do make our feed "wetter" than normal.

[HenryisBlaisin']

She doesn't look obese to me, but she does look a little chubby-it's hard to tell moving with tack on. A picture of her standing square with no saddle would be best. I'd put her at a six-maybe 7 on the BCS-4 to five is optimal.

I will say that for an "easy keeper," six quarts of grain a day on top of 24/7 pasture seems like a lot. A lot a lot, even when she is in moderate work of an hour a day, 5-7 days a week. The majority of a horse's diet should come from good quality forage-grass or high-quality hay.

My vet once told me that we are far more likely to think an overweight horse looks healthy than one that is actually at optimum weight-ask your vet where she is on the BCS and go from there-she may need to drop a few, and cutting grain while work is cut is a good idea in any case.

[onelanerode]

She is not obese, but she could stand to lose a bit and definitely gain some muscle tone. You definitely don't want her carrying around extra weight as she ages.

Just be sure that in cutting calories you are not depriving her of nutrition she needs. She will still need protein, vitamins and minerals in appropriate amounts ... just not quite so many calories. Depending on how much feed is actually in that three-quart scoop, and what its nutritional profile is, she may or may not be getting what she requires out of it. Focus on nutrient requirements, not just volume of feed. :yes:

[BornToRide]

I would also agree with "looking a bit chubby" and her being an easy keeper, I would rather err a bit on the leaner side. :)

[cali]

She is not obese, but she could stand to lose a bit and definitely gain some muscle tone. You definitely don't want her carrying around extra weight as she ages.

Just be sure that in cutting calories you are not depriving her of nutrition she needs. She will still need protein, vitamins and minerals in appropriate amounts ... just not quite so many calories. Depending on how much feed is actually in that three-quart scoop, and what its nutritional profile is, she may or may not be getting what she requires out of it. Focus on nutrient requirements, not just volume of feed. :yes:

You have hit on one of my concerns. Feeding quantity isn't all that consistent. Depending on who feeds the scoop may be rounded to the point there is an extra 1/2 quart or so scant it is missing a 3/4 quart. The barn uses an inexpensive feed and the fact that I can't get a full profile of the nutritional value concerns me. I'd like to see the numbers on the other ingredients. Also, isn't corn meal fairly high in sugar? Note that it is the first ingredient in what she gets now. This is cut and pasted from the feed co's site:

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min... 10.00%
Crude Fat, Min......... 3.00%
Crude Fiber, Max..... 15.00%

INGREDIENTS: Corn Meal, Wheat Middlings, Rice Mill By Product, Soybean Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Cane Molasses, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Yeast Culture, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Choline Chloride, D-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Manganous Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide and Calcium Iodate.

Discussions with friends and my reading here has me thinking of switching to a legends product. However, that opens up a whole new host of issues with BO and feeding routines. Just getting supplements (that I pay for) added to feed consistently is a problem.

So, vast majority here feels she is heavy with a few notable exceptions. Woodland had a valid point, I think, about the heavier bodied stock breeds. This horse is of Impressive lineage and as I understand it those horses do tend to be beefier. (the old "She's just big-boned" argument? LOL) OH, she is N/N.

My inclination is to give the mare three-four weeks of being back at work (we are in week one now) and assess her weight at that time. I will take measurements as JRG suggested.

As for conditioning, I don't really know what to do about that. With the exception of the last six weeks the horse is ridden 1-1.5 hrs 3-5 days per week. There a lot of trotting and cantering that goes on in each session.

Thanks for your help and comments and not crucifying the non-knowledgeable. I'm trying to learn but the curve is pretty steep at this point.

What say y'all? :)

[Char]

I would say that her body fat condition is near perfect. Like others have said, she could stand to "firm up" a bit as far as muscling goes, but I certainly would not cut her feed back. Especially if she is an Impressive bred Quarter Horse. She will NEVER look like a Thoroughbred or Trek, no matter how much feed you cut. She will get ribby, sure, but will never have that thin/sleek look of those other narrower breeds.

[mjmvet]

My advice would be:
1) Have the vet look at her again
2) Weight tape her so you can keep track of (roughly) how much she weighs
3) I don't know any horse in light work that requires 6 quarts of *any* kind of grain, especially when they're on pasture. That is a massive quantity of concentrates. (unless its a complete feed like an extruded senior feed) If she were mine I would be inclined to see how she did on hay/pasture only, feeding roughly 1.5% to 2% of her body weight in hay, a bit less if she's on pasture all day, and either NO grain, or a small amount of 'ration balancer' like Triple Crown Lite to make sure trace vitamins and minerals are being fed.
4) It might help you to take a 'conformation' type picture once every two months or so - its hard when you see the horse every day to notice trends.
5) Personally, it would bug me that the BO would tell you what to feed your horse. It's YOUR horse, and ultimately YOUR decision to make.

Good luck!