Hay Herbicides Passing Thru Horse Manure... Killing Crops

[Daydream Believer]

Now What? I can hardly believe it. Now they got herbicides so potent they go through the horse (or whatever eats it), persist through composting, and kill plants the compost is used to fertilize. Now is that stupid or is that stupid?

I have a hard time believing that they won't find the pesticides next in the rivers and waterways killing algaes and water plants and God Knows what else. So when the does the law of unintended consequences come into play before they stop using this crap.

I'm very glad my hay farmer does not use chemicals at all. I guess this is another thing to worry about in regards to disposing of horse manure.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=14510

Hay Herbicides Not a Risk to Horses, Despite Manure-Fertilized Crop Loss

by: Rhona Melsky
July 10 2009, Article # 14510

Recent reported crop losses in North Carolina and several other states are linked to certain broad leaf herbicides containing aminopyralid, clopyralid, and picloram, according to researchers. In North Carolina, people with gardens and organic farms who rely on horse manure or compost for fertilizer are noticing that some of their plants are dying.
The herbicides, used by hay producers to produce weed-free hay, are applied to hay grown in every state and ingested by horses and other species.
"Based on the published reports it appears these herbicides pass through the animal basically intact," said Jeanine Davis, PhD, associate professor and extension specialist in horticultural science at North Carolina State University. "After being excreted in the urine and manure they still act like herbicides."
"There is no adverse health impact or risk to humans, horses, livestock, or any animals from this," said Bob Bruss, PhD, risk assessment manager, pesticide division of the North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. "It's more injury to broadleaf plants if they get treated with the manure."
Generally the herbicides are used on hard-to-control weeds. "They may carryover and be able to kill weeds for more than one season," said Bill Yarborough, regional agronomist at the NCDA&CS. He said the problem is more prevalent in home gardens. "People will see it in fruits and vegetables where people are using manure."
According to Sue Ellen Johnson, PhD, assistant professor-Forage Specialist at NCSU, "Not all hay has these herbicides applied; a good indicator that these particular products were not applied is if the hay includes a legume.
"As a member of the greater agricultural community it's important for horse owners to be informed and ask how our hay was grown and with what materials and then make sure we make the right decisions on how we dispose of our horses' manure," Johnson said.

[Daydream Believer]

Bump...no one cares? I changed the title as I thought it was a bit confusing.

[ShotenStar]

I care, because I learned this lesson the hard way two years ago. I had to treat my pastures for an invasive / aggressive nettle and a 2,4D product was used. Even though I kept the horses off the pastures for the recommended times, when I used the resulting manure on my vegetable garden the next spring, all my tomato and squash plants died (they are very sensitive to 2,4D). This year, no manure on the gardens ...

*star*

[Daydream Believer]

I guess it gives more meaning to the phrase that you are what you eat. I had never heard that herbicides could persist so long to kill plants that composted manure was used for fertilizer on. I like to spread composted manure on my pastures and I use it in my garden. I was a bit shocked to read this article.

Are we (the collective we) shooting ourselves in the foot to grow better hay by ruining a renewable resource like horse manure for any use other than landfill? What happens when it does end up in the waterways killing algae and water plants and suddenly we horse people are faced with toxic waste disposal?

I just think using chemicals with that long of a "life" is sheer stupidity. Now you told me about 24D, I will not be using it on my farm. I'm glad I have no done so yet. The only herbicide I used is Round up and that is only directly under my electric fences so we don't have to weed whack several miles of electric fenceline.

[EqTrainer]

I find it alarming but not surprising...

and it makes me grateful that I feed local hay that is not sprayed w/anything for deweeding.

[Guilherme]

Well, this is a Press Release without any substance behind it.

For example we read "Recent reported crop losses in North Carolina and several other states are linked to certain broad leaf herbicides containing aminopyralid, clopyralid, and picloram, according to researchers. In North Carolina, people with gardens and organic farms who rely on horse manure or compost for fertilizer are noticing that some of their plants are dying. "

Who made the report? What steps were taken to isolate the critical event? Was the manure analyzed and did it indicate the presence of such herbicides? You ge the idea! :)

Put another way, is this "real science" or "junk science?"

G.

[MunchkinsMom]

Interesting indeed! And not surprising, we have become too reliant on chemicals in our everyday living, and often learn the consequences too late.

It does make me wonder if that is what helped with my weeds in the pasture, since I have been spreading manure for the past 5 years, and I do have fewer weeds, I was just attributing it to more frequent mowing.

Now that my horses no longer eat hay (a whole seperate topic there) I wonder if I will see an increase in the weeds? Not that I will use herbicides to control them, I tend to be a minimalist in that department.

[Bob Kane]

Four local gardeners lost most of their vegetable plants last month. They'd mulched with straw that had been sprayed with 2-4 D, according to VA Tech. It seems a stretch, but the lab results were consistent, I'm told by the extension service.

[spacehorse]

I just heard about this. My dad and I were discussing spraying our pastures-timing, product, etc. He has a license so he can get anything he wants.

I was reading up on FOL and there was a really good bit of info on there about what products work on what, and how long horses have to be off the pasture (this is an issue for us, we only have enough fields for the number of head we have).

I think it is Ally. If you spray your hay fields with it, and then spread the manure that came from that hay, it will kill whatever you spread it on. :eek:

He has to attend meetings every year in order to get his license renewed, and there was a big to-do at this meeting about using this product. I suppose someone found this out the hard way! :eek:

[poltroon]

More than, "you are what you eat" is "you are what your food ate."

This goes nicely with the conversation about organic hay, eh?

I've been wondering how long it would be before someone would start saying that you needed to keep your horses organically to use their manure as an organic source. I was always worried about wormers and the like - didn't think about herbicides.

Another interesting consequence of this is that many wilderness areas require certified weed-free hay to avoid spreading non-native noxious weeds. With this information, it's possible that the herbicides could have detrimental effects as well.

[poltroon]

Well, this is a Press Release without any substance behind it.

For example we read "Recent reported crop losses in North Carolina and several other states are linked to certain broad leaf herbicides containing aminopyralid, clopyralid, and picloram, according to researchers. In North Carolina, people with gardens and organic farms who rely on horse manure or compost for fertilizer are noticing that some of their plants are dying. "

Who made the report? What steps were taken to isolate the critical event? Was the manure analyzed and did it indicate the presence of such herbicides? You ge the idea! :)

Put another way, is this "real science" or "junk science?"

G.

A little google finds:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/ncorganic/FAQ-herbicide-carryover-in-manure3.pdf

Aminopyralid, clopyralid, fluroxypry, picloram, and triclopyr are in a class of herbicides known as pyridine carboxylic acids. They are registered for application to pasture, grain crops, lawns, certain vegetables and fruits, and roadsides. They are used to control a wide variety of broadleaf weeds. If these herbicides are used on a
pasture or hayfield, they apparently don’t harm the animals grazing on the pasture or eating the hay. But some of these herbicides can be persistent and may remain active in the hay, straw, grass clippings, and manure, even
after they are composted. Some of these herbicides have a half life of 300 days or more and aminopyralid has been reported to remain active in compost for several years. A problem sometimes arises when these materials, particularly manure and compost, are applied to fields and gardens to raise certain vegetables and flowers. The
herbicides of greatest concern are picloram, clopyralid, and aminopyralid. The garden plants that are most sensitive to this class of herbicides are tomatoes, potatoes, lettuce, spinach, carrots, peas, beans, dahlias, and some roses.

To view the herbicides registered for use on pastures, hayfields, lawns, vegetable and fruit crops, and roadsides, please refer to the 2009 NC Agricultural Chemicals Manual (http://ipm.ncsu.edu/agchem.html). Some herbicides registered to control broadleaf weeds in pastures and hayfields that contain the herbicides of concern
include Grazon (picloram + 2,4-D), Surmount (picloram + fluroxypyr), Crossbow (2,4-D + triclopyr), Milestone (aminopyralid), Forefront (aminopyralid + 2,4-D), Redeem R&P (triclopyr + clopyralid), Remedy and Remedy Ultra (triclopyr), PastureGard (triclopyr + fluroxypyr), and Curtail (2,4-D + clopyralid). For lawns and turf,
Confront (triclopyr + clopyralid) is a recommended herbicide. Stinger (clopyralid) is registered for application to strawberries and certain vegetable crops. The labels on these herbicides contain detailed instructions for use, including animal feeding restrictions and safe manure use. Most of these herbicides have a rotational crop restriction of at least 18 months for vegetable crops. When used as directed on the labels, these herbicides should not cause these problems. The problems arise when the hay, manure, grass clippings, etc. leave the hands of the individual who applied the herbicides. Apparently, the information about the herbicide use is not always following along with the hay, manure, compost, etc.


http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/livestocksystems/M1197.html

http://www.tilthproducers.org/tpqpdfs/108.pdf

Last year, the Washington State University Compost Facility in Pullman, WA, experienced
contamination of its finished compost from residues of picloram that were present on the
incoming compost feedstocks. The finished compost damaged plants in a number of places
where it was used for 12-18 months or more. While broadleaf plants are most affected, some
young grasses and trees are sensitive at higher concentrations. To date, this incident has cost
WSU over $250,000 in testing, damages, and lost sales.
Since the original picloram problem occurred, the WSU Compost Facility has detected clopyralid
residues on incoming compost feedstocks and finished compost. The residue levels have been
well below the federal tolerance (e. g. 500 ppm for grass hay), but even at the low levels present
(often <10 ppb), this compound can still damage sensitive plants.

[Daydream Believer]

Perhaps this will open up a market for herbicide free hay now also for those who want to use their manure as compost? My manure is obviously ok as my garden is doing great this year...I'm pretty sure my hay farmer does not use chemicals but I never thought about the straw also being an issue...UGH...

I'm still shaking my head in dismay. I remember a conversation I had last Fall with a biochemist. He said that there are 70,000 more toxins in the environment now than there were prior to WWII resulting from agriculture and industry use. The discussion was in the context of thyroid damage and various causes. It seemed like such an extreme number but when you think of the chemicals we use now that we did not use them...I guess it does not seem so. Same for our horses too...they are also exposed to way more "stuff" now than before. You can't help but wonder what health effects that is having on all of us critters.

[JSwan]

In case anyone is wondering - 2,4 D is in all the weed and feed stuff you buy at Home Depot, Lowe's - basically anything you use on your lawn.

That combination of chemicals is pretty much everywhere, and Harry Homeowner uses a LOT of it. And I mean a lot a lot a lot a lot. More than is even absolutely necessary to keep one's lawn looking like a golf course. Oh, and golf courses use it a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot.

And it all goes running off into waterways or into groundwater.

(I'm not a freaky deaky long haired hippie tree hugger and I'm not opposed to the use of chemicals in farming or lawn use. Just pointing out that this stuff is EVERYWHERE. Very popular)

I don't like it and I don't like RoundUP either. I have a little of both just for the odd bit of problem area here or there (usually poison ivy or a particularly noxious or invasive patch of weeds). I think I bought the containers 4 or 5 years ago and they're only half empty. I've always relied on my goats for weed control.

Problem is - a hay grower might need to use it because the clients aren't going to want to pay for weed infested hay. Personally, I'd be screaming bloody murder if my hay had Johnsongrass in it, or purple loosestrife, or other nasty things in it.

[mares tails]

I don't like RoundUP either.
Why not?

.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=poltroon;4234931]A little google finds:QUOTE]

All references to date have the same fault: reports of dots. No one has connected the dots except through "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning.

Again, I ask, has the manure in question been tested for herbicide remnants and what were the results of the tests, if any? I mean testing manure for such contaminants can't be all that hard, can it?

G.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=poltroon;4234931]A little google finds:QUOTE]

All references to date have the same fault: reports of dots. No one has connected the dots except through "post hoc ergo propter hoc" reasoning.

Again, I ask, has the manure in question been tested for herbicide remnants and what were the results of the tests, if any? I mean testing manure for such contaminants can't be all that hard, can it?

G.

The Washington State link I gave indicates that they tested both manure and finished compost from various feedstocks and lists a ppm result.

Note that some of the contamination in some cases is not coming from horse manure but from grass clippings that are being composted by municipalities, etc.

[JSwan]

Why not?

.

No particular reason. I just prefer to use my goats for weed control and save the expensive chemicals for noxious weeds they won't eat or a particularly problem area. Cuts down on cost, don't have to worry as much about drift, etc.

Usually if you just fertilize and lime according to soil test results, along with good grazing practices, you can keep weeds down to a dull roar.

But sometimes that just isn't good enough and chemical suppression is appropriate.

Deworming your livestock causes the same "issues". Wormers don't only kill worms in the horse - the manure causes massive kills of beneficial insects all over the US. Not saying don't deworm your livestock, just maybe we should all be more aware of the hidden/subtle repercussions of our use of these products - and to use them judiciously and with restraint.

And I really swear I'm not a long haired hippie tree hugging unshaven earth mother type. ;)

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;4235169]

Note that some of the contamination in some cases is not coming from horse manure but from grass clippings that are being composted by municipalities, etc.

That makes sense to me, poltroon.

Hate to harp on the harry homeowner types but lordy do they purchase vast quantities of this stuff for their lawns.

Used to be that ag runoff was the main source of pollution for the Chesapeake Bay - now it's homeowners with nutrient runoff from their lawns. (and I'd love to link to where I read that but I don't remember.... maybe from AFT or the Chesapeake Bay Foundation or something)

[MunchkinsMom]

I wonder if the herbicides would still be present in any ash left over from manure after it was used to produce energy? Some of the internet research that I have done on using horse manure as a biofuel states that the residue (ash or whatever) can be used as a fertilizer.

Supposedly we have a few companies looking to build energy plants that use stall waste here in the Ocala/Gainesville area, and there is one already in Wellington.

[mares tails]

I wonder if the herbicides would still be present in any ash left over from manure after it was used to produce energy?
Highly unlikely - it's a rare organic compound that can survive combustion. (Metals are another story.)

Glyphosate (Roundup) does not tend to accumulate, and microbes in the soil readily and completely degrade it even under low temperature conditions.

.

[easyrider]

I'd never use roundup. Here's the latest research: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx800218n. And there's more: http://www.combat-monsanto.co.uk/spip.php?article238