Done with Dressage

[TwiceAsNice]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??

[lila]

While I am not nearly as advanced a rider as you, I understand wholeheartedly where you are coming from. Even at prelim level the elitism and snobbery is tremendous. I would love to go the "classical dressage" route, for lack of a better term. To do dressage just for the love of it, but even so, the dressage crowd at dressage yards will still comment, judge and ridicule. It really is sad.

[lila]

Not to mention the drama if you do dressage at "non-dressage" yards. I have been told that I only do dressage because I am a control freak and too chicken to jump. You just can't win. Only thing you can do is to grow a thick skin.

That being said, I do realise that it is different for you as you need to make a living out of it.

[fuzzy.pony]

No, haven't gotten to this point. I find the journey fulfilling, irregardless of whether the horse I'm on is fancy schmancy. I find the gossip uninteresting, and I am fairly sucessful in ignoring the drama. And when I get frustrated, I behave like an adult and keep my thoughts off internet bulletin boards.

Get out or don't, but its pretty immature to get uppity and whiny in a public forum. If you don't love it every day, its not the right job for you.

[slc2]

Suceeding in any type of horse business has the same problems as listed above, it takes someone who is very determined. Every division has similar problems, not just dressage. I've also heard reiners complain bitterly that you can only win if you have a QH and only if it's from certain lines and certain breeders, same in every division I've ever had contact with over the years.

We have no mandatory licensing for instructors with many advertising false credentials (and people afraid to call them out), very little control of 'sharp business practices' such as fraudulent commissioning and selling bad horses, or local trainers colluding on rates (AND cooperating in selling and reselling horses in unethical ways), gossip controls who is successful in many cases...the business is completely out of control in some ways. Even just as a lowly amateur with little experience, I have seen people do some pretty nasty things.

But it has always been like this. Improvements in the horse business have come in tiny increments during my life; it remains a basically uncontrolled business, and gossip is used not to vent or share emotions as it is in some areas of life, but to control who makes money.

If you find it overwhelming, it's best for your own health to find something else to do immediately. Some hot employment areas are in the medical fields such as nursing, and engineering is projected to have good growth over the next ten years. A four year degree in any one of several fields could put you on the road to a new career.

And to be honest, in any career, there are things wrong with it. There are always bad people out there in any endeavor; but there is some structure and some control at the top and at least some attempt at arbitration. The key is to concentrate on the positive and to find good people to be around and to find ways to destress. All jobs are, at times, unfair, affected by gossip and fads in management techniques and inventory control....etc.

But some of what you're talking about, to be perfectly honest, is very puzzling. So many people dislike the same things you do, that I would think you would do very, very well.

If you do off breeds of dressage you should in fact be wildly successful as so many people so openly despise the warmblood market; one of the commonest topics of discussion here is how stupid and dull warmbloods are(if the newer lighter more sensitive type, they still aren't suited because their hind quarters are incorrect or whatever), how ill suited to dressage which started with baroque horses, how overpriced and how few people can ride these expensive horses they buy due to their gaits (and how they are no better than the rescue horse or the local grade horse anyway); there is no end of complaint here about these issues, as well as about snobbery, bias to warmbloods and general unfairness in judging.

On many scores, the world should be beating a path to your door. I should think you would find an almost endless market.

[Mr.GMan]

While I am not a professional ( a lifelong student), I just got back into the dressage after a long hiatus. I weighed why I wanted to take lessons again as opposed to just hacking around. Like lila, I decided I wanted the journey, to improve on something I loved being around. I have an appendixed QH/TB who is great and tolerates my learning well. He isn't a schoolmaster by any means and maybe one day in the near future I will show him, just to see how I fare against others in my level. My trainer knows my intentions and she has clients that want to show in the upper levels as well as the 40 somethings like me who want to better themselves. She is awesome and I love the fact that she respects why I am doing this.

I showed in the QH arena with a very TB looking mare and did poorly and was laughed at I am sure by the folks (back in the early 80's). She was better suited for the hunter world. I did not have the $$ to compete against others in the rated shows and felt the way you do. BUT, i plowed through and found those who like me, enjoyed the sport, camraderie, and yes we cared about how we did, but didn't let it get to us much. We vented lots, but always knew we were just as good on our home turf.

I hope you find a middle ground where you can be happy and comfortable in your boots as well as a clientele that you will be happy to work with and for.

[snoopy]

One would have to be blind as to not notice or encounter the things you mention BUT Really why is it an uphill climb?! What do you care what others drive, ride, and wear? I could never understand this way of thinking.

It is a dngerous and distracting practice to measure one's worth but what other have.

I cannot remember where I heard this but it went something like this...

"why put yourself financially and emotionally in a hole just to impress someone you do not know...and probably do not like"

Have fun and do this for your own enjoyment...all the rest is wasted emotion.

Focus on what is important to you...leave all the other shit to those who actually CARE about that shit.

I myself could give a rat's ass about what you speak of.

Hang in there and good luck.

[nadasy]

I could write volumes about this, but slc2 has nailed it yet again-LOL. She is absolutely right. Great Post!
Maybe the OP needs to take some time to reflect the positives instead of feeling persecuted by all the negatives. Everyone in every area of their work has at times felt that maybe it was time to switch to something else. They've found themselves up against the wall and can't get over it. Think about how much would be lost if those people just gave up?

Maybe it's time to take some time off and regroup, look for solutions to your issues. Making what you do so much better that people will be 'beating a path to your door'. Everyone has moments of 'dry spells', being overwhelmed, feeling like you just can't make it through another day. You need to find some 'aha' moments for yourself, so that you can build on that. Fight for yourself and your abilities, not just give up and cave in.

You can cut back to a more manageable level, cut out some of the most problematic issues that cause your angst. Streamline, de-clutter, whatever you can honestly say that will allow you to find some peace with what you are doing and go from there.

Each one of us has something to offer in whatever business we are involved in. My youngest son keeps reminding me when I get spread out so thinly that I'm frazzled to the point of no return.....KISS Mom!

[egontoast]

I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb

I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods

Do you realize how this sounds? Why should this bother you? You say you do well on your 'off breeds' and the people you scorn as a group of non individuals cannot even sit their "big imported warmbloods" so why is that a problem for you? You can beat them!! To you, that is what it is all about, based on your post.

Ever hear of " reverse snobbism?", often hand in hand with the green eyed monster.

If you are not enjoying your successes on your "off breeds" that you do well on, if you can't find any joy in your riding and showing , if you are so obsessed with your own prejudices against people who happen to ride WBS (and your post screams that you would love to have one to ride yourself)then, yes, PLEASE move on.

Your post sounds small and petty and stereotypes everyone who happens to own a horse you wish you could afford. Life isn't fair!! Time to grow up.

[retrofit]

If you treat your clients with the same scorn that you display in your post, it's no wonder it's not working for you.

[Bluey]

---"Suceeding in any type of horse business has the same problems as listed above, it takes someone who is very determined. Every division has similar problems, not just dressage. I've also heard reiners complain bitterly that you can only win if you have a QH and only if it's from certain lines and certain breeders, same in every division I've ever had contact with over the years."---

You know, that is like complaining when you go to a herding trial with an australian cattle dog that all that wins is border collies and they don't like other breeds.
Maybe if your australian cattle dog worked as the trials are judged he would win?;)

That is silly, the reason some types of horses win in certain disciplines and at certain levels is because they are the best for what is judged.
Once you really know what you need to do to win, you get the right kind of dog or here horse to do the job, do it better than anyone and you too will win.

There has been the odd dog other than a border collie that won top herding trails, but it did so by being the best, as any border collie has to do.

There are other bloodlines and even breeds of horses than your typical, bred for the job reining or cutting horses that win their share, but most other dogs or horses not that talented for the task at hand will just not perform as well as those bred for it, they are outtalented by those that are bred for that task.

If your odd breed and looking horses you are showing in dressage are that good, I doubt that not being with the "in" club will be what keeps you from winning.

If someone is that good to go to the top and play with the ones there, they will get there.
If they are not that good, all the money in the world won't get them there and the lack of it definitely will be a handicap.;)

There is a very clear example of this in the quarter horse halter classes, where all you do is present a horse at it's best with the horse standing there, it doesn't has to do anything but look the way the class is written to be judged.

There were a few trainers that were winning most of the time and so everyone else started complaining that halter was rigged.
There was much talk between the judges and association about this, but if the best trainers were getting the best horses to fit and knew how to fit and present them best of anyone, how could a judge not keep giving those few top trainers the win?
The smart exhibitors learned to get the best horses for that class and put them in training with the best trainers for that and so the trouble of PERCEPTION of judges being biased persisted.

The truth is that, maybe some time, some place, someone does get an undeserved ribbon, but most times in most associations, they are bending themselves over backwards to make the showing as even for all participating as possible.

Now, when we are talking about gossip and people being catty to other exhibitors, that is a PEOPLE problem and if you look around, that is happening in all we do in life, is how some people are, how they socialize, how they form groups and have fun pointing fingers at others.:rolleyes:

Do you want to be part of dressage as an owner, rider and trainer for the socialization or the horses or both?
You need to decide and find satisfaction in what you do, how you do it and where you go with that from inside you, not by listening to others.
If you can't, then you are better off going somewhere else.
Maybe you found your level and it is not as high as you would like it to be, so you decided to blame other than yourself and grumble at the system.
All of us can only get to be as good as we can get to be and there will be others better and that is ok.:)

I do think that, no matter what else you go do, unless you change how you feel about the way some in this world are, you will encounter the same again rubbing you wrong, no matter what you do.
That is people for you, if it is in a dressage barn or show or in an internet forum.:winkgrin:

[snoopy]

Do you realize how this sounds? Why should this bother you? You say you do well on your 'off breeds' and the people you scorn as a group of non individuals cannot even sit their "big imported warmbloods" so why is that a problem for you? You can beat them!! To you, that is what it is all about, based on your post.

Ever hear of " reverse snobbism?", often hand in hand with the green eyed monster.

If you are not enjoying your successes on your "off breeds" that you do well on, if you can't find any joy in your riding and showing , if you are so obsessed with your own prejudices against people who happen to ride WBS (and your post screams that you would love to have one to ride yourself)then, yes, PLEASE move on.

Your post sounds small and petty and stereotypes everyone who happens to own a horse you wish you could afford. Life isn't fair!! Time to grow up.



Absolutely agree....

Blaming others for your own short comings does nothing to address the problem here.

Rise to your own challenges and leave the blame game in the sandbox.

If you are truely passionate about what you do, focus on that passion...all the rest is distraction.

Life is not fair the way we each see it but that is not to say that you cannot have your bit of crust like everyone else.

[Nanerpus]

Suceeding in any type of horse business has the same problems as listed above, it takes someone who is very determined. Every division has similar problems, not just dressage. I've also heard reiners complain bitterly that you can only win if you have a QH and only if it's from certain lines and certain breeders, same in every division I've ever had contact with over the years.

We have no mandatory licensing for instructors with many advertising false credentials (and people afraid to call them out), very little control of 'sharp business practices' such as fraudulent commissioning and selling bad horses, or local trainers colluding on rates (AND cooperating in selling and reselling horses in unethical ways), gossip controls who is successful in many cases...the business is completely out of control in some ways. Even just as a lowly amateur with little experience, I have seen people do some pretty nasty things.

But it has always been like this. Improvements in the horse business have come in tiny increments during my life; it remains a basically uncontrolled business, and gossip is used not to vent or share emotions as it is in some areas of life, but to control who makes money.

If you find it overwhelming, it's best for your own health to find something else to do immediately. Some hot employment areas are in the medical fields such as nursing, and engineering is projected to have good growth over the next ten years. A four year degree in any one of several fields could put you on the road to a new career.

And to be honest, in any career, there are things wrong with it. There are always bad people out there in any endeavor; but there is some structure and some control at the top and at least some attempt at arbitration. The key is to concentrate on the positive and to find good people to be around and to find ways to destress. All jobs are, at times, unfair, affected by gossip and fads in management techniques and inventory control....etc.

But some of what you're talking about, to be perfectly honest, is very puzzling. So many people dislike the same things you do, that I would think you would do very, very well.

If you do off breeds of dressage you should in fact be wildly successful as so many people so openly despise the warmblood market; one of the commonest topics of discussion here is how stupid and dull warmbloods are(if the newer lighter more sensitive type, they still aren't suited because their hind quarters are incorrect or whatever), how ill suited to dressage which started with baroque horses, how overpriced and how few people can ride these expensive horses they buy due to their gaits (and how they are no better than the rescue horse or the local grade horse anyway); there is no end of complaint here about these issues, as well as about snobbery, bias to warmbloods and general unfairness in judging.

On many scores, the world should be beating a path to your door. I should think you would find an almost endless market.


EXCELLENT Post:D

[exvet]

Anyone else gotten to this point??

I don't deny that what you say exists; but, no, I haven't reached the same point. I no longer ride warmbloods because I CHOSE to focus on an alternate breed. I still enjoy the journey and deal with why I may not win or may struggle to proceed from level to level with any given horse (I have 10 though 3 are retired/semi-retired) by taking a good long hard look at myself or my riding. Certainly there are aspects of the dressage scene that are down right frustrating but they do not outweigh the joy I get everytime I accomplish something that I've been working towards with that individual horse. I especially get a huge rush or jazzed up each time my alternate or unconventional breed wins, does well or makes people take notice. Guess that's my own form of reverse snobbism but it's what makes me tick. I also, though multiple times have been asked to, don't try to make a living at this (I have a "regular" job) 'cause riding dressage is what I love to do and prefer to keep it that way.

It does sound like you're focusing on the wrong aspects and perhaps need a break or permanently walk away should you find something more satisfying. I also don't think it's dressage in and of itself that has you down or even the dressage scene but the need to be accepted, fit in or "arrive". Do you suppose there could be some other reason other than lack of money that has prevented you from satisfying those feelings/needs? My guess is yes but only you know the answer to that question.

[rabicon]

I haven't encountered this. I was scared I would but my first USDF show everyone that I ran across was very nice and actually wished me good luck. People come by to say hello because my horse and myself had not been seen in the program before. It is hard with my off breed and no he'll not make it to grand prix but we are having fun and doing great starting out and when we do beat those big warmbloods I feel like we had to do great and are ont he right track to have done so. Its hard to compete with horses that are naturally breed for dressage and with top trainers etc... but thats life. I feel accomplished when we can go out and get a 70% and I don't care if thats 4th place its still a 70!!! Thats takes an amazing amount of work and bond. Maybe you should get out or buy yourself a warmblood baby (which you can get reasonably right now) and raise it up and train it from scratch. I will say what others have said. I've been in the hunter world and came across the same problems. If you want to win at A hunter shows your not going to do it on some off breed usuallly. It takes a nice hunter (expensive) horse to do so. Just as expensive as a grand prix dressage horse in some places. Thats the horse world though and you have to get over it and have your own goals and not worry about everyone else. Did you ever think that maybe your attitude at shows (since you have such sour grapes) maybe why people gossip about you and your horse? Go there with a big smile and wish everyone luck and put yourself out there to be friendly and you maybe suprised. I also use to barrel race on my 14.3 long back qh cross. At our first competition people looked at us funny and would whisper. Then after we ran I had so many people come up and tell me that he is fast for such a little horse and that they were impressed. Your going to find it everywhere but go and be happy and prove them wrong.

[nuts4cowboybutts]

I am a firm believer in the tenet that if you are not enjoying what you are doing for a career, do something else!

Too many people today have their noses to the grindstone, working to pay bills and doing something they are tired of doing, hate doing or feel compelled to do because of finances.This feeling often makes them do a poor job at what they are doing, or resent every hour of having to work. If you have the luxury of being able to change what you are doing, think about doing it.

It doesn't matter whether you are burned out, other people are snobs or you are a snob yourself. If you're done, you're done.

Consider what you could do it in a related field or another discipline which brings you a lot of pleasure.

Life is short. Make the most of it.

[Fantastic]

Find the joy again in developing a horse again! Dressage is not about competing, but about developing a horse to it's utmost potential. There is no requirement that states professionals making a living in dressage must compete. If you are as established as you say you are, then why not just take a break from the show ring?

There is room in dressage for everyone regardless of age, race, income level, or social status. There is also room in dressage for all types of horses regardless of breed, age, size, color, gaits, or athletic potential.

I hope you can figure this out and find what makes you happy again. Best of luck!

[freestyle2music]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??

I spend this weekend with the parents of a toprider. But their daughter had to make the switch from pony rider to junior rider. The daughter won everything in the world of ponies both national and international, but the next step is a huge one.

You know what their story was. When our daughter won everything she didn't have many friends, but now she ends at place 20th or 15th all her friends are coming back again. Get used to is, and when you can't get used to it find another sport.

[blackhorse6]

Suceeding in any type of horse business has the same problems as listed above, it takes someone who is very determined. Every division has similar problems, not just dressage. I've also heard reiners complain bitterly that you can only win if you have a QH and only if it's from certain lines and certain breeders, same in every division I've ever had contact with over the years.

We have no mandatory licensing for instructors with many advertising false credentials (and people afraid to call them out), very little control of 'sharp business practices' such as fraudulent commissioning and selling bad horses, or local trainers colluding on rates (AND cooperating in selling and reselling horses in unethical ways), gossip controls who is successful in many cases...the business is completely out of control in some ways. Even just as a lowly amateur with little experience, I have seen people do some pretty nasty things.

But it has always been like this. Improvements in the horse business have come in tiny increments during my life; it remains a basically uncontrolled business, and gossip is used not to vent or share emotions as it is in some areas of life, but to control who makes money.

If you find it overwhelming, it's best for your own health to find something else to do immediately. Some hot employment areas are in the medical fields such as nursing, and engineering is projected to have good growth over the next ten years. A four year degree in any one of several fields could put you on the road to a new career.

And to be honest, in any career, there are things wrong with it. There are always bad people out there in any endeavor; but there is some structure and some control at the top and at least some attempt at arbitration. The key is to concentrate on the positive and to find good people to be around and to find ways to destress. All jobs are, at times, unfair, affected by gossip and fads in management techniques and inventory control....etc.

But some of what you're talking about, to be perfectly honest, is very puzzling. So many people dislike the same things you do, that I would think you would do very, very well.

If you do off breeds of dressage you should in fact be wildly successful as so many people so openly despise the warmblood market; one of the commonest topics of discussion here is how stupid and dull warmbloods are(if the newer lighter more sensitive type, they still aren't suited because their hind quarters are incorrect or whatever), how ill suited to dressage which started with baroque horses, how overpriced and how few people can ride these expensive horses they buy due to their gaits (and how they are no better than the rescue horse or the local grade horse anyway); there is no end of complaint here about these issues, as well as about snobbery, bias to warmbloods and general unfairness in judging.

On many scores, the world should be beating a path to your door. I should think you would find an almost endless market.


Yep, you nailed it...great post!:yes:

[stolensilver]

I don't feel the way the OP feels either. When I'm at a dressage competition I often feel overwhelmed in the car park, so many huge wagons with professional logos on the side and riders with assistants polishing their boots and handing them their whips. And then there's me in my little old wagon with no assistants and I'm having to polish my own boots. ;) But once I'm on my off-breed horse and we're doing our warm up I know that our training is better than most of the other horses and I trust the judges to see that. Sometimes they don't and sometimes we don't show them our best work but most of the time my off-breed whups the asses of those warmbloods and has done so all the way to PSG.

However warmbloods, trained well, are unbeatable. So if you cannot afford an all singing, all dancing warmblood dressage horse as a trainer you should be able to buy a baby one and bring them on. I'm doing that at the moment. It's fun, very rewarding, and already the baby warmblood looks like a horse I could never had afforded to buy in any way other than as a yearling or 2yo.

So why are you miserable OP? Is it really everyone else conspiring against you or are you actually frustrated at your progress in dressage? That isn't down to your horse. That is down to you.

[FriesianX]

Hang around with different people. Sure, there are some who have a lot of money and can afford to buy the biggest and best - that is the case in EVERY SINGLE SPORT. Heck, in life... There are people who think you need a Hummer or Porsche to navigate the roads, who wouldn't be seen in my 5 year old car - does that make you want to give up driving?

I do believe, when you hit the upper levels at the BIG shows, you run into more of the elitism - but there are also a lot of very nice people showing on a budget, even at those levels.

Perhaps your frustration is scaring people away - or perhaps you are looking for approval from the wrong crowd. It might be time to take a break - or go play at some of the schooling shows where it is often a MUCH more supportive, fun atmosphere! Start up your own schooling show series - make it fun.

I have a decidedly non-traditional horse - and even at the bigger shows at the FEI levels, I find many people who are interested in him and complimentary. Some of them even contact me afterwards to see my young horses (also non-traditional). I find many people in this sport are simply horse lovers, they appreciate the challenges and formal structure of dressage, they are up against the same life struggles (money, time, physical ability) that I and my friends deal with.

Yeah, there are elitists - and we see them at every show - if it isn't fancy, imported bloodlines, it isn't worth watching. But those aren't the people I chose to associate with - and there are PLENTY of others who feel the same way, and can appreciate a nice horse and a good rider.

Now, having said all that... Dressage competition DOES reward the nicer movers - that is part of the standards of the competition. But - you can find nice moving horses, Warmblood and Other Breeds, without spending a huge fortune. And a good rider can dramatically improve the gaits of a horse.

Take a deep breath, step back for a while, and re-evaluate after you've had a break.

A side note - my trainer shows through the FEI levels - she's pretty well respected and well known, USDF certified, etc. In her barn there are a few fancy Warmbloods (two or three), but there is also a 1/2 Arab, a Standardbred/Draft cross, a Friesian, and my Friesian cross. Haul in lessons include an Irish horse, a Pony, another 1/2 Arab, even an ocassional mule. They are ALL nice horses (well, the mule isn't a nice horse, he's a nice mule:lol: - and I think he's retired now, haven't seen him for a while). They are all competitive horses - and many of them are not big $$$$ horses. Most of the owners are working class, regular people.

[tazlover08]

I'm beginning in dressage, but really, we just surround ourselves with positive people. I'm on an appaloosa/thoroughbred/belgian and I've never heard anything but positives.

It's all about the people you surround yourself with. If you get with a people who love to have fun as much as we do, you would find yourself in an entirely different situatoin.

[HenryisBlaisin']

I chose dressage after several years in hunters and English pleasure because it's much easier to see my own progression, and for the first time, there is a concrete (albeit subjective) measure of how you did instead of judging every performance by what color ribbom you got. Ribbons are always nice, but for the first time, I'm riding for the ride and not the ribbon. If my 15h QH that I paid three figures for gets beat by the huge WB who cost five or six figures, well, bummer. I go in with goals, usually what I want to improve on. If I meet those goals, or my horse outs in the performance of his life, then the ribbon doesn't matter. After hunters and pleasure, that's a welcome change. (FWIW, I got laughed at for taking my appy or my QH in open HUS classes-until the day my QH beat every TB and WB in the ring). But I love dressage because I'm only riding against myself and the test-not the other riders. I'm a very, very competitive person, so changing my attitude about ribbons wasn't easy, but it is rewarding. I got my first 8 in my last test...but overall the test was terrible-I was thrilled with the 8 and I deserved the rest.

My instructor and I were talking about the suitability thing, and I do agree that there are many people who are overmounted on fancy horses. I can't imagine that it can be much fun to ride a horse you can't sit, can't stop, etc. I bought my horse because I wanted to have fun-he's a challenge, but I never feel overwhelmed-and so riding him is fun. For an amateur, riding SHOULD be fun, and being overmounted isn't so much fun-my guess is many of them will burn out because of that. I'm not a pro, so I can't imagine what burnout would feel like at that level, but as an ammy-the day I'm not having fun is the day I stop riding, so I surround myself with horses and people who are fun! I'm taking my dressage/hunter QH to a gymkhana. He's a terrible games horse and we'll probably be the only competitors there riding English. But we'll have fun and learn something. Isn't that what it should be about?

[Beasmom]

OP, your post sounds very whiney -- I wholeheartedly agree with Egontoast, fuzzy.pony, and snoopy. Slc makes good points, too. Get out of the business if it bothers you so much. There are PLENTY of people in the dressage world succeeding on "offbreed" horses. All my students have "offbreeds". Everything from Arabs to Shires and everything in between. They are having FUN with their horses, and rarely do I hear someone griping about breed prejudice and such.

Perhaps you are suffering from burnout, in which case, some time off and away will help. However, if the attitude you display here in your post is typical and not due to burnout, perhaps the "elitist" vibes you get are directed at YOU, and have nothing to do with the horse you ride or the clothes you wear.

In this business, there will ALWAYS be someone with a horse better than yours, nicer clothes, trailer, barn, coach, whatever. There will also be people with worse horses, clothes, etc. Stop worrying about what other people have or do. Tend to your own knitting!

I'm in this business for the journey and the challenges and the fun. If you no longer know why you ride and find no joy in it, I feel sorry for you. Time, I guess, to move on.

[slight]

I think the OP is frustrated, and just looking for some support; not to say we can't be honest, but sometimes we all want to "whine" a bit. Heck, give me some cheese with my "whine."

Your community, off or on-line, is there to hold you up or set you straight as need be in an encouraging manner.

That being said, try to ignore the hurtful persons (who probably aren't being as hurtful as you think) and don't give up. As someone said, hurtful comments
and snobbery can go both ways. The less proficient riders on the expensive horses usually are aware of the fact that they have a lot to learn, and have their own insecurities as well.

I agree with trying to get back to riding Dressage for the love of it. Also, when can we just perceive our horses as individuals, and not a "breed." It seems like racism!

[Eclectic Horseman]

Well, OP, I'm willing to show you a few moments of sympathy. There probably isn't anyone out there who hasn't felt some frustration at some time. Life isn't fair. We all learn that at a very early age.

We hear all of the aphorisms, but we don't really believe that they are true. We don't want to believe that they are true. But over time, you find out that "what they say" really is true --great rewards really DO require great risks. For example in your case, how about sacrificing everything and going to work for a BNT as a working student without pay or taking out a loan and buying a fabulous horse? So what if 90% of the people who take great risks fail? You absolutely cannot win the lottery unless you buy a ticket. You simply have to take those sorts of risks to get the kind of rewards that you want.

For those who don't have that sort of entrepreneurial fortitude (most of us) we need to change the way that we think about things, rather than attempt to change our circumstances. Find our satisfaction and self-worth wherever we can find it. I am quite sure that the majority of people think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence--no matter where they are in the world of dressage. I can think of a few who come to mind who have spent millions of dollars and who are in exactly the same frustrated place that you are.

It seems that no matter where you are, there is always another "Inner Ring" that you are on the outside of. Once you see it for what it is, it is easier to count your own blessings. If you've never read it-- here is C.S. Lewis's explanation of the "Inner Ring" phenomenon.

http://www.geocities.com/bigcslewisfan/

Enjoy. :)

[HollysHobbies]

Remember that there are ammys out there who don't come from ANY money, who saved every penny to buy that schoolmaster warmblood (the one we spent years learning to sit), the truck with 200,000 miles and used trailer, surfed ebay for a cheap pair of white britches, and work at job 9-5 daily to RUSH home and hop on that schoolmaster and try to learn and grow and progress. We're at those big shows too, having scraped together the money to register with USEF and USDF and take lessons and show 3-4 times a year. We're sleeping on cots in crowded hotel rooms or in our trailers to save money. I was at that show this weekend too...showing 2nd level for the first time in my life (I've been at 1st level for 15 years).

I think people in ALL jobs experience burnout--growing up mucking local barns to pay for my hobby, I chose early on NOT to be a pro. I wouldn't have been good enough anyway and I was afraid I'd ruin the thing in my life I loved most. But my deep love for horses IS a part of my daily life--it's the thing I look forward to at the end of every day.

Maybe you could cut back to riding "just your own" horses and explore some new jobs? Don't give it up though--just cut back. You'll find that love again--and they don't care about fashion, or scores, or snobs...carrots are a different story though! ;)

[CatOnLap]

Well, OP is possibly a troll, having joined 2 weeks ago and starting 5 threads that she generally doesn't return to, and has made only one other post in that time, but anyway:

You may well leave dressage, but the dressage you have learned will never leave you.

I am so sorry to read that you are jaded by the people around you, and yes, it does sound like you envy some of them. This is not my experience of dressage. I find the folks I hang out with are mostly positive, warm, encouraging, and do not care if I am riding my "FEI imported all that and a bag of chips" or my rescue standardbred. I see no widespread anti warmblood movement either.

My hope for you is that you find some positive people and develop a less frustrated life as soon as possible.

And I bet the current economy is frustrating everyone- it has really sharpened the line between those folks who were enjoying a sport that was really a luxury for them, and the ones who are so wealthy that the cost of an imported horse means no more than a cup of starbucks. I am sure many professional trainer and riders are feeling the pinch about now and that can't help. Changing tracks may be a good idea entirely- perhaps to something non horsey.

[Ambrey]

Snobbery goes both ways. I didn't see anything in your post that indicated that people were treating you badly, only that you didn't approve of how they were approaching their sport. How is that not snobbery? It is their sport too.

And it really sounds like you're watching people who are trying their hardest and seeking their dreams and seeing only the negative. Why not see the positive?

I've been in this whole dressage thing for about 2 years now, and have definitely found that you can't judge the sincerity or commitment of a person by the breed of horse they ride or the brand of breeches they wear. That goes BOTH WAYS.

Sure snobbery exists. I'm a fat middle-aged housewife on a plow horse, I see my share ;) But some of the nicest, most sincere people I've met in this sport wear only breeches from Europe and ride horses worth more than all 3 of my cars put together. And some don't. Give people a chance.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Good advice given. Take a break or get out of it entirely

But, if the OP is trying to make a living in an area where the local DQ clique rules, it can be very tough. Only the "right" vets, "right" clinicians, and "right" trainers will do. If the local group is like this, getting horse people in as clinicians vs. what-have-you-done/won is next to impossible because it takes a group to accomplish that.

I've seen horses improve with proper dental care (Not every vet is good at that), proper diagnosis, proper training from non-clique approved clinician. Yet these same people, while acknowledging the vast improvement in their horses, inevitably go back to the "clique approved" people and back to where they were.

Their fear of being out of the local clique is greater than their desire to improve or the welfare of their horses.

I've seen a non-warmblood, schooled under a non-clique approved trainer, place very well in local shows and some not so local, over their warmbloods and TB's, but the reaction is still scorn.

Sure, a person can trailer out for their lessons and for clinicians, but if the OP is depending on the locals for a living, it can be very tough.

Not all areas are like that and kudos to you who live in those places. But sometimes we are STUCK where we are and I can understand how frustrating it can become.

I think dressage is kind of like marathon running- you improve largely for yourself and the benefit of your horse. But if you're trying to make a living at teaching that kind of improvement, yes, the local mindset is very relevant, unfortunately.

[pintopiaffe]

I've been there. A long time ago. Just out of YR age, lots going for me as a rider. Training other people's horses semi-professionally, only to have them sold out from under me every *freaking* time they got beyond w/t/c/leg yeild...

And I decided instead of chasing the golden ring of FEI showing, that I would rather stay in a very rural area, work with children of families in the homeless shelter system and special students, and breed my own horses, since I couldn't afford the quality I wanted, and there HAD to be the same quality out there in other breeds...

Now, 15 years after that decision, I am deliriously happy most of the time. Dirt poor, but blissfully happy.

And I find myself frustrated by being just on the cusp of bringing my first horse from unbacked to upper levels... the 2nd level ceiling. Why? Time. Money. Equipment. Lessons.

Meanwhile, as folks have mentioned, I hate my job. I love my JOB, but the environment is toxic. And now I'm out of it, not by choice. And already, I am more at peace, happier, sleeping better... I should be terrified--how am I going to feed the horses next week? Instead, life is good.

If you hate it, get out.

It is SO not about what breed or brand of horse. At the highest level, there were what, 25 horses? One was a Russian harness type bred, who had been a police horse... another a little Lusitano... Quite a few were at leat 1/2 TB.

Yes, I ruefully agree it IS about picking one suited for the purpose, but that doesn't mean it HAS to be WB. A purpose bred off breed (such as many of us are doing)can and will and do win their classes. I've got the Ch, Res Ch., ribbons and trophies to prove it--from a little Arab, who's pinto to boot. <shrugs> I will admit, I too have the same satisfaction that Exvet speaks of, the reverse predjudice. ;) I love it when we win. And when we don't it is not because of my horse's colour, or size, it's because we had a bad ride: some days more my fault, sometimes more his. ;)

I do wonder if this is a troll post. I found myself reading answers, cheering for some of the (in)famous CotH bluntness. Smiling at the reasonable answers from fellow non-trads.

Life is too short. Make a living at something else if you hate this. You can't take one bit of it with you. Martin Luther King said the day before he was shot, 'It isn't about how long you live, it's about how well you live.'

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

I too suffered from burnout. Not burnout from the horses but from the people I had to deal with on a daily basis.
I got totally away from the professional side even though I did have to keep 2 Hanoverians. Couldn't totally be away from horses.
In the last decade I've gotten back into breeding horses, now am starting to ride again & enjoying it totally.
Sometimes you have to step back, take a breather, start in a new direction.
I also had to deal with alot of snobs, unscrupulous dealers, etc. Now I only work with the really nice people who are friendly & fun.
I learned that horses are way to much money & time not to fully enjoy them & the people around them that you have to deal with. I really enjoy my time with the horses & horse people now. Maybe it's also a change in myself that's brought this on. I no longer feel the pressure to be #1 in my world. I finally feel like I have that inner peace that comes with just not caring about what others think & doing what I feel is right, correct, fun with my horses & farm. Maybe if you just took a break for a while you'll feel better.

[blackhorse6]

I too suffered from burnout. Not burnout from the horses but from the people I had to deal with on a daily basis.
I got totally away from the professional side even though I did have to keep 2 Hanoverians. Couldn't totally be away from horses.
In the last decade I've gotten back into breeding horses, now am starting to ride again & enjoying it totally.
Sometimes you have to step back, take a breather, start in a new direction.
I also had to deal with alot of snobs, unscrupulous dealers, etc. Now I only work with the really nice people who are friendly & fun.
I learned that horses are way to much money & time not to fully enjoy them & the people around them that you have to deal with. I really enjoy my time with the horses & horse people now. Maybe it's also a change in myself that's brought this on. I no longer feel the pressure to be #1 in my world. I finally feel like I have that inner peace that comes with just not caring about what others think & doing what I feel is right, correct, fun with my horses & farm. Maybe if you just took a break for a while you'll feel better.

Great post:yes: Life is to damn short not to enjoy every minute of it you can. Horses can bring out the very best in people but unfortunately they can also bring out the very worst.. Put yourself in the first catagory and do what Whitfield says...surround yourself with people who also want to be happy and enjoy the sport;)

[Foxtrot's]

Some of the answers to the OP's post are exactly the type of attitude she was describing.
On the other hand, most posts are supportive and understanding. Everybody gets a bit down on themselves sometimes and needs a leg up occasionally. (Or a kick in the pants, whichever works.) I'd like to think the OP can self-talk herself into a more positive frame of mind, but judging by some of these answers, I have to agree with her. The Dressage board has a bit of a reputation...just sayin'.

[Whisper]

I didn't encounter the elite/snobbish attitude you mention. As stolensilver described, I was frustrated with my own progress. So, I switched disciplines, and focused on things that came more easily to me. Right now, I can't afford dressage lessons or shows. Once I'm more financially stable, I'll probably get back into it, but I do sometimes question if it's worth spending money on something for relatively incremental improvements, rather than focusing on other disciplines which I have a better chance to succeed in. I feel that Dressage is good for me (I don't own a horse right now, just ride for free on some that belong to a friend), and I enjoy it, and I'm rarely frustrated when I'm actually riding. It's only when I compare myself to other people that the green-eyed monster and insecurity set in a bit.

Perhaps think things through a bit and find ways to rediscover the joy in horses and riding, and come back to Dressage refreshed and with a more positive attitude?

[egontoast]

The Dressage board has a bit of a reputation...just sayin'.

Yes, there is quite a lot of reverse snobbism on this board so it's a good place for the OP to get support for her point of view.

Looking at her other posts it may be that her horse is just not easily trained for dressage because of his training as a barrel racer rather than being any issue with his breed. Horses can be retrained from other disciplines of course but it depends on how they were trained.

This can be frustrating and it's always easier to blame others for our difficulties.

[pintopiaffe]

oh, and just for the record...

I have a WB, a couple Arab Xs and an Iberian.

Not ONE of them makes ME better. ;)

[Petstorejunkie]

I compete at a lower level but i have quite the opposite experience. I have always had a strong foundation in dressage, but back when i showed hunters i had a similar experience to yours. i cant stand the hunter fashionista crowd, it's nauseating.
But when i finally decided to put all my good dressage instruction to work and start showing, I, and my rescued OTTB whose blind in one eye were welcomed into the community with open arms. I have always been judged fairly and given constructive criticism. Competitors are always courteous in warm up, and we compliment each other on "nice rides"

[slight]

Well, OP, I'm willing to show you a few moments of sympathy. There probably isn't anyone out there who hasn't felt some frustration at some time. Life isn't fair. We all learn that at a very early age.

We hear all of the aphorisms, but we don't really believe that they are true. We don't want to believe that they are true. But over time, you find out that "what they say" really is true --great rewards really DO require great risks. For example in your case, how about sacrificing everything and going to work for a BNT as a working student without pay or taking out a loan and buying a fabulous horse? So what if 90% of the people who take great risks fail? You absolutely cannot win the lottery unless you buy a ticket. You simply have to take those sorts of risks to get the kind of rewards that you want.

For those who don't have that sort of entrepreneurial fortitude (most of us) we need to change the way that we think about things, rather than attempt to change our circumstances. Find our satisfaction and self-worth wherever we can find it. I am quite sure that the majority of people think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence--no matter where they are in the world of dressage. I can think of a few who come to mind who have spent millions of dollars and who are in exactly the same frustrated place that you are.

It seems that no matter where you are, there is always another "Inner Ring" that you are on the outside of. Once you see it for what it is, it is easier to count your own blessings. If you've never read it-- here is C.S. Lewis's explanation of the "Inner Ring" phenomenon.

http://www.geocities.com/bigcslewisfan/

Enjoy. :)

I love C.S. Lewis. Agree that we should ALL read the Inner Ring phenomenon!!

[WBLover]

Remember that there are ammys out there who don't come from ANY money, who saved every penny to buy that schoolmaster warmblood (the one we spent years learning to sit), the truck with 200,000 miles and used trailer, surfed ebay for a cheap pair of white britches, and work at job 9-5 daily to RUSH home and hop on that schoolmaster and try to learn and grow and progress. We're at those big shows too, having scraped together the money to register with USEF and USDF and take lessons and show 3-4 times a year. We're sleeping on cots in crowded hotel rooms or in our trailers to save money. I was at that show this weekend too...showing 2nd level for the first time in my life (I've been at 1st level for 15 years).

Yep, this is me. And I don't have a schoolmaster either, because I couldn't afford a fancy WB let alone SCHOOLMASTER! So I have an off-breed, and he's young and green, because that's all I could afford. But I saw something in him, and maybe I'll never bring it out of him, but it's the journey for me. I go to shows and don't care what other people think, just what the judge says me and my dorky horse need to work on. So I go home and work at it. I can't afford a trainer right now, and I can't afford to put him in training, so we plug away and I just enjoy our little successes together. And his nickers.. :)

[Foxtrot's]

CatOnLap - if you are right I am going to smack myself and feel like an idiot for reading all this.

[Equibrit]

Your enjoyment is directly related to the way you view the scene. Personally I find the attitude you are describing VERY AMUSING and a constant source of hilarity. It makes you appreciate sensible, down to earth horse folks, with a sense of humour ! Besides, why give power to those who don't deserve it ?

[ESG]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??

Yup. Competitive dressage has gotten so constipated that I threw in the towel about a year ago. Welcome to the dark side! :cool:

[Serigraph]

Well I was feeling like the OP very recently - experienced some discrimination and snootiness.

Then I had a ride on my very green non warmblood/fancy TBx and it was a smack in the face why I love dressage. I love dressage for the betterment of the horse. For the connection. For the journey. That's it. Plain and Simple.

[sublimequine]

This thread makes me laugh because it's the PERFECT representation of the Dressage board here on COTH.

OP: I quit, I'm just so tired of all the snobbery, etc, etc, etc, so discouraged. :(

COTH Dressage Board: ..there's the door, gtfo, we don't like your kind anyways.

I swear, if this board was a movie, yall would be that "Mean Girls" movie. :lol::lol::lol:

[sidepasser]

I read the thread and thought a while about how to respond. I have probably the most non-traditional horse of all, a TWH that was bred for the big lick world. She didn't make the cut so sat in a field for a long time before I got her.

I thought about what I could do with her. Really thought long and hard what would be BEST for her noodle self, she was all legs and didn't know where to put them, had the rudimentary basics and a good belief that humans were her friends (that is why I bought her most of all).

I am not a dressage person. If I were to call myself anything, I'd say I was a western pleasure person as that was what I did for twenty years. In the best interest of my horse and to learn something NEW, I chose to hire a dressage trainer for my girl and for me. Now I am older and have learned a couple of things:

1. Dressage is the hardest damn thing I have ever tried to learn. Just when I think I "got" something, my instructor tells me to "quit taking the easy way out and sit deep, heels down, shoulders back and relax my hands". arrgghh. But I keep plugging away and ride my girl three days a week and two of those days I practice and one day I take my girl out on trails so we don't become brain fried.

2. My horse could have been made to do big lick, oh I could have put her butt back in those shoes and sent her away to some barn, but that would have been the EASY thing to do. She would have never done the top ten, or been in the nationals, but she might have placed and been a miserable cow of a horse and I would have been an ass. I chose dressage because she has to THINK, she has to learn to carry those noodle legs and go straight and stop square and think and think some more. Some days I say her hamster fell off the wheel cause her brain goes flying out of her head, but on most days I find ONE good thing that she has really tried hard to do for me, and I pat her and tell her what a bright, intelligent beastie she is.

Now I may never make a dressage show - and if I do, I am sure that it will be a TWH dressage class but we try harder than anything to get the basics right to improve the horse and myself.

It's not all fun. It's hard, sweaty - gosh I am soaked when I get off and most days Tyr looks like someone turned a hose on her and we ride at 8 am in the mornings or very late in the evenings. I just raved Saturday cause she FINALLY figures out a turn on the haunches and did it right twice! Yeah!

If it is no fun or there isn't the goal of improving the horse and yourself, then why are you doing dressage? I know, I know..clients and all that. But I feel that if the primary goal is not self improvement and improving your horse, then your bad attitude will soon rub off on your clients and you won't have to make this decision to quit. They will quit you.

All we can do in life is do the best we can with what we have. I have a TWH because of my bad back, it is my choice to continue riding but also to continue her education and turn her into a well mannered, well trained horse. If I never win a ribbon, I will still be happy and I am not jealous that some have expensive warm bloods, I am glad for them and glad they can afford them and RIDE them. Even if I could afford one, I know I could never ride one due to the gaits. But resent them? No. I am sure there are elitists in the dressage world, but I can say that every time I come here and ask for advice with my TWH (even if she is an off breed for dressage) people here have been helpful and none have "talked down" to me. I never ask for advice unless I am going to HEED it and try the suggestions and discuss them with my trainer. Another thing, my trainer does dressage and does it very well. He never resents me printing off COTH suggestions as he says he is always willing to read/listen to another's point of view and could very well learn something from it. He's a classical dressage trainer and no, no BNT, but still very good and his clients win frequently.
I guess he is secure that he does the best HE can to help Tyr and I become the best we can and if that means going outside the "normal" dressage horse world of WBs and TBs or trotting horses, so be it.

So unless you can be happy with what you have in your own little world, there is no point continuing in dressage. You won't be happy, the horses won't and your clients will not.

I apologize for the length, but I think sometimes people need to own up to WHY they are doing something? Is it for the prestige, the money, the oohs and aahs? Is it to impress friends and meet new people and impress them? Dressage is something I wish I had taken up as a youngster, I am 50 and it is hard and sometimes I come off my horse so sore I can barely walk, but I keep plugging away at it. Just for me and for Tyr. Her smallest improvements (and mine) keep me plugging away at it.

OP - maybe you should examine why you are doing dressage at this point in your life? Perhaps another discipline would be better and you could come back to dressage refreshed with a different view?

[Ambrey]

I swear, if this board was a movie, yall would be that "Mean Girls" movie. :lol::lol::lol:

LOL, there was a reality show on some time ago called "Queen Bees." Learned a lot about this board on that show ;)

[sublimequine]

LOL, there was a reality show on some time ago called "Queen Bees." Learned a lot about this board on that show ;)

:lol:

[magnolia73]

I have zero sympathy for people "unhappy" with a career as a horse trainer. It's a dream job for so many.

You want to know a sucky job? Cleaning houses, sealing driveways, working at McDonalds, driving a school bus. Stressful? ER doctor, air traffic controller, police officer. "Oooo, my QH in training only got a 60" or gee, my patient died.... "that mean lady with the $150,000 hanovarian snubbed my $20,000 QH " or "that rich lady I clean for accused me of stealing because I moved her jewelry box like she asked"

Good, go be done with dressage and hopefully your old clients can become new clients of someone who appreciates the sport for what it is.

[ESG]

Now that was just downright nasty, magnolia. Clearly, you've never been a trainer. "Dream job"?!?!? Are you kidding? Maybe from the outside it is, but trust me, unless you enjoy working for about 12 cents an hour, putting up with clients who are never satisfied, who piss and moan because you're raising your rates $50/month after five years, when the price of hay and grain has tripled in that same time span? And they wonder why the horse you TOLD them would take three years to come to potential, hasn't started looking like a winner in six months? Or the students who can't be bothered to keep a regular lesson time, or call you when they're not coming? Or boarders who pull their horses out with no notice, in the middle of the night, and escape with owing you a shitload of money?

Yeah, some dream. Nightmare, more like. :no:

[sublimequine]

buzzzzzzzzz buzzzzzzzzzz buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..

BUZZZZZZZZZ BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

BUZZZZZZ BUZZZZZZZZZZ BUZZZZZZZZZZ!!! :mad::mad::mad:

:STING!:


:o

[nhwr]

Anyone else gotten to this point??Nope. I ride (and compete when I can) because I enjoy it. The issues you mention certainly do exist but what do they have to do with you? There is a certain amount of unpleasantness in any endeavor. Some can be dealt with through good management practices and maintaining a professional attitude. The extent to which you are bothered by the rest of these things is a statement of what you are focusing on.

Self inflicted wounds :yes:

[Ambrey]

LOL, Sublime!

[sublimequine]

LOL, Sublime!

Quick, to the bee suits!

http://www.fragile-planet.co.uk/images/Suit.gif

:lol:

[Ambrey]

I shouldn't be laughing so hard, my response wasn't exactly sympathetic either (although I'd say for a different reason!).

FEI approves new clothing requirements for upper level dressage:

http://www.scavengeinc.com/busy-bee-costume-p-4733.html

[sublimequine]

I shouldn't be laughing so hard, my response wasn't exactly sympathetic either (although I'd say for a different reason!).

FEI approves new clothing requirements for upper level dressage:

http://www.scavengeinc.com/busy-bee-costume-p-4733.html

And new approved auxillary tack.. you can attach a huge-a$$ stinger to your cantle! :lol:

[partlycloudy]

In my barn right now I have a hanoverian of good bloodlines (picked him up at an auction..and Not in Germany) a Irish Draught who I traded a heavy hunter for (who I had developed from a 3 yr old )and a 3 yr old CSHA gelding who is lovely but somewhat toed in(which is why I have him)
I probably have the smallest budget a person could have for buying horses, but by being creative I have 3 very good horses who I would never have dreampt I could own.
Hang in there...good things can and do happen!

[Beasmom]

I thought Magnolia made a good point. There are lots of uber-sucky jobs in the world, and even the "high status" ones, such as ER doctor, have their stressful aspects!

Don't like your job? Well, if you can afford to change it, given the economy, do it and be happy.

[Sabine]

slick- big kudos for this excellent post.
To add a tiny bit: if you lack the passion (which should not be deterred by lack of money or lack of connections) then this is not the right sport for you to come from limited means and make it to the top.
The passion must fulfill you - so that you are independent of what others say or do. I recommend reading tons of classical dressage and get truly educated in that area- it's a growing field in the US and it has it's place for the intelligent amateur rider that wants mostly a satisfactory, non-violent, non-confronting experience with their horse.
There are many 'other' dressage related fields that can provide you with a living and a clientele, but your love for the horse and the goal of fluent, effortless, generous training must come through...to the client and to the horse.

Good Luck finding your real calling!

[magnolia73]

Now that was just downright nasty, magnolia. Clearly, you've never been a trainer. "Dream job"?!?!? Are you kidding? Maybe from the outside it is, but trust me, unless you enjoy working for about 12 cents an hour, putting up with clients who are never satisfied, who piss and moan because you're raising your rates $50/month after five years, when the price of hay and grain has tripled in that same time span? And they wonder why the horse you TOLD them would take three years to come to potential, hasn't started looking like a winner in six months? Or the students who can't be bothered to keep a regular lesson time, or call you when they're not coming? Or boarders who pull their horses out with no notice, in the middle of the night, and escape with owing you a shitload of money?


Raise your rates. Fire clients. Call an attorney when people don't pay. Just about every other job comes with people who pull the exact same shit. Do you think you are martyrs or something?

Just about every day in my office someone tries to:
get us to reduce a fee (we may or may not depending on who and how much we need the work)
Chooses to ignore the 4th invoice (we start legal action)
Doesn't like the feedback we have (we tell them it is what it is)
Misses/is late to or is early for a meeting (we fit them in or reschedule)
Needs something at the last minute requiring us to scramble and work late (we suck it up and do it and file it for the next time we do business with them)

Is there some reason horse people can't do the same thing in running their business? Are you forced to give services away?

I mean, the OP isn't even complaining about the business aspects.... she's actually complaining about how others conduct business.

Mean, yes, but this is yet another "woe is me...poor horse trainer....dealing with such awful people" topic.

[egontoast]

yeah, I did not read this as honest frustration with the journey. We all have that. Condolences, hugs. cookies and jungles (sic) all around.

I read this as someone who is whining because she can't afford the horse she wants ( umm... a wb?) and yet spews hate and scorn at anyone anyone who rides one. This person also claims to make a living as a dressage trainer ( WOW! top 2%!) but her other posts suggest this is highly unlikely.

Anyway, it appears the OP will now venture into reining with her hopped up former barrel racin TB and will no doubt soon encounter the same prejudices there agst her offbreed horse. The world is just not fair to the majorly entitled!!:cool:

[magnolia73]

The world is just not fair to the majorly entitled!!


I LOVE that. It's all about perspective- true unfairness is being a citizen of a war torn nation like Afghanistan who just wants a decent life, perhaps some food and security....

[ESG]

Raise your rates. Fire clients. Call an attorney when people don't pay. Just about every other job comes with people who pull the exact same shit. Do you think you are martyrs or something?

No, we're not. Or, at least, I'm not, because I chose to get out when I got sick of it.

Just about every day in my office someone tries to:
get us to reduce a fee (we may or may not depending on who and how much we need the work)
Chooses to ignore the 4th invoice (we start legal action)
Doesn't like the feedback we have (we tell them it is what it is)
Misses/is late to or is early for a meeting (we fit them in or reschedule)
Needs something at the last minute requiring us to scramble and work late (we suck it up and do it and file it for the next time we do business with them)

Yeah, and you have an office full of folks to back you up, and funds to start legal proceedings, and money to meet payroll when one or two clients don't pay up. The independant BO/trainer isn't in that enviable position. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Is there some reason horse people can't do the same thing in running their business? Are you forced to give services away?

When boarders take off in the middle of the night, yes. Ever tried getting your money through small claims court? Can't afford to hire an attorney since the PITA boarder scarpered, so must go through small claims. Takes months, and most of the time, even if you get a judgement, you can never collect.

I mean, the OP isn't even complaining about the business aspects.... she's actually complaining about how others conduct business.

Maybe I misread, but I didn't get that from her post.

Mean, yes, but this is yet another "woe is me...poor horse trainer....dealing with such awful people" topic.

Well honestly, a heck of a lot of professional horse people are "awful people". And the only way to avoid doing business with them is to get out of the business. I did, and that was my choice. The OP, if I got the gist of her post, is lamenting the fact that she's having to do the same. BTDT, sorry to say, and I commiserate.

Carry on. :cool:

[magnolia73]

ESG-
Actually I work for a small consultant. There are exactly two of us in the office and a monthly bookkeeper. I'd estimate that 50% of hours are spent dealing with unpleasant BS (IRS, no-pay clients, proposals for gv't work) and 50% is spent doing what we enjoy.

Small business is a tough way to make a living. Training/boarding horses doesn't have some monopoly on misery. It's not like the rest of don't deal with jerks, slow pay, no pay.

[Dressage Art]

ESG-
Actually I work for a small consultant. There are exactly two of us in the office and a monthly bookkeeper. I'd estimate that 50% of hours are spent dealing with unpleasant BS (IRS, no-pay clients, proposals for gv't work) and 50% is spent doing what we enjoy.

Small business is a tough way to make a living. Training/boarding horses doesn't have some monopoly on misery. It's not like the rest of don't deal with jerks, slow pay, no pay.yes, that is so true... even for an equestrian artist.

[egontoast]

Actually I work for a small consultant.

Oh my, i hope that is not a shot at the vertically challanged !!;):lol:

There is bias and unfairness everywhere if you really look for it.

It's much more rewarding to be a 'glass half full ' sort of person.

[slc2]

The Small Consultants Bureau has been notified.

[Dressage Art]

To OP, you can't quit your love and passion, but you can find other ways to keep on doing it, since quitting it will just make you even more unhappy. While I can sympathies that it is harder to show with off-breeds in dressage - you don't have to show. (My own mare is part TB so mediums are our weakest part as it often happens with TBs and sometimes I’m so jealous of the natural mediums of WBs) I know dressage trainers who do not show, who ride/train mostly off-breeds and are very good with lower level dressage riders. They operate out of non-dressage barns and make a good living teaching dressage to beginners.

You really don’t have to be the “winnest” superior to all GP rider around based at the high end dressage barn to enjoy dressage.

[goeslikestink]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??

and you call yourself a trianer
boy-------

mate to reach the top and stay at the top constantly you have to have the dosh
and a team behind you as in support -grooms etc family etc vets and farriers etc

and let me say - your sick of amateurs but its those said amateurs you charge to earn a living or try to
a trianer jobs is to improve and encourage in both the horse and rider
and doing what you just done says a lot about your confidence and educational skills as a so called trainer

and hate to say it but by sounds of it your an average joe horse owner cant work with dressage
and cant get anywhere as dotn know what you doing really so now try something else
well aim high kid ----------- the goals start on the botttom rung of a ladder not the top
please explain what the half halt stride is and what its for thank you

[nhwr]

Running a small business of any type has its challenges. You have to be a certain type of person to be successful at it. Horse training, if you love it, can be a dream job. There are ways to deal with challenges; boarders sneaking out? Get a deposit up front and don't let anyone get behind on board. People don't show for lessons? Charge them anyway. Afraid you will loose them as clients? Do you really want clients like that? Be assertive for goodness sake.

Riding an off breed has its advantages, sometimes. I rode with someone for over 12 years who started out competing on a stallion of an off breed. I first saw her ride at a show I had organized. That evening the judge, Victor Hugo Vidal, and I at dinner discussed her. His comment was "It is so refreshing to see someone riding a stud at 4th level in a snaffle. I really don't care for the horse, but she just rides the hell out of him" I think her score was a 69%. I had a young and talented TB at the time and was looking for someone who would give us attention even though we weren't a big bucks wb/dq pair. She eventually took her stallion to GP and got reasonable scores on him. Over the years, she taught me a lot and I helped her figure out how to find and buy wbs in Europe. When it was time for me to move on, we parted amicably.

So it is all what you make of it. If you can't stand being around the kind of customers you want to work with, how is that going to work? :confused:
I'd venture a guess that attitude is holding you back more than anything else.

[Fixerupper]

The horse 'industry' isn't any different than any other boutique business...you have to know your clientele and be able to 'live with' your clientele. I've often said that we (in the biz) end up with the clients we can get along with. If you aspire to 'upper level' anything, you have to be prepared to deal with a preponderance of moneyed dilettanetes (actually.. more so in the hunters ;)) and be willing to provide them with 'dressage-lite' in exchange for sponsorship money (or rent money...be that as it may).

If you are foolish enough to believe that 'doing it my way or the highway' is a road to the 'big leagues' then you should never be in what amounts to a 'service industry'. Those of us who chose to marry the 'my way' and the 'how can I be of service' aspects into something we can live with ...get along. And as in most things in real life...not necessarily deliriously happy but good enough for getting up in the morning. :)

[ESG]

Admirably put, Fixerupper.

[ESG]

ESG-
Actually I work for a small consultant. There are exactly two of us in the office and a monthly bookkeeper. I'd estimate that 50% of hours are spent dealing with unpleasant BS (IRS, no-pay clients, proposals for gv't work) and 50% is spent doing what we enjoy.

Small business is a tough way to make a living. Training/boarding horses doesn't have some monopoly on misery. It's not like the rest of don't deal with jerks, slow pay, no pay.

True, but all small businesses are not created equal, and it's difficult to accurately compare an equestrian business with a main stream, "corporate" setting.

Oh, and if you're actually spending 50% of your time "doing what you enjoy", I'd say you're way, way ahead of most trainers. ;)

[quietann]

This is a great discussion, but I call "troll!" on the OP.

[ESG]

Could be, but I've had enough moments like the OP describes, that it may not be.

[nhwr]

Casual amateur riders aren't called dilettantes, they are called paying customers ;)

Personally if I am not going to get paid, I'd rather not do the work :lol: It is even worse to take on expenses (feed, vet and shoeing) and get the shaft. If you act like your time and services are not to be taken seriously, don't be surprised if others do the same. The reverse is also true. It is not "my way or the highway", it is leadership by example :yes:

[TheHorseProblem]

This is a great discussion, but I call "troll!" on the OP.

What's a troll? Someone who starts a provocative thread just to sit back and enjoy the controversy?

Sorry, I'm sorta new.

[Fixerupper]

Casual amateur riders aren't called dilettantes, they are called paying customers ;)

Personally if I am not going to get paid, I'd rather not do the work :lol: It is even worse to take on expenses (feed, vet and shoeing) and get the shaft. If you act like your time and services are not to be taken seriously, don't be surprised if others do the same. The reverse is also true. It is not "my way or the highway", it is leadership by example :yes:

Agreed...but at the start the learning curve can be a bit steep :cool:

[Fixerupper]

This is a great discussion, but I call "troll!" on the OP.

Probably true..but how often does a troll generate a great discussion? Must be very disappointing :lol: :lol:

[nhwr]

Agreed...but at the start the learning curve can be a bit steep :cool:True but then you have more opportunity to practice your art :winkgrin:

[Beasmom]

What's a troll? Someone who starts a provocative thread just to sit back and enjoy the controversy?

Sorry, I'm sorta new.

You got it!

[GreekDressageQueen]

There's a LOT of crap in the horse showing world regardless of discipline. But Dressage is different because it's only about you, your horse, the judge, and the score. Everything else really doesn't matter.

If you are frustrated with showing, then don't show. You can still "do" dressage without showing and still have fun, learn, train horses for resale, mentor students, attends clinics, etc.

[FancyFree]

There's a LOT of crap in the horse showing world regardless of discipline. But Dressage is different because it's only about you, your horse, the judge, and the score. Everything else really doesn't matter.

Honestly that is so true. You could drive yourself mad if you were always going to compare yourself to the Joneses. I learned a long time ago: There is always someone richer, smarter, prettier, blonder, taller, skinnier and a better rider than you. Your adjectives may vary. ;)

[Whisper]

I have a WB, a couple Arab Xs and an Iberian.
Not ONE of them makes ME better. ;)
I haven't noticed a correlation with breed, but a horse who is more balanced and has more training *really* helps me ride better! They give me a place to sit so I move with them and can maintain better posture, they help me establish a more elastic connection, I can be more subtle with my aids, I stay more relaxed, and all of that helps my riding immensely!

[hessy35]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??

You've lost your center. You love dressage because you are good at it (obviously). You probably take the average horse and do amazing things with him/her, but still fall short because you don't fall into the "norm" of what is expected of the typical “dressage diva” these days (which is a good thing IMO). If I were you, I'd back off the showing for a while and just ride at home. Do what you love to do and don't let outside influences discourage you. Ride to music, and lots of it. You just need to regain your love for what you do without allowing the negative side of the sport to bring you down. Find your center. And after a nice break, you still hate showing, then don't anymore. Teach and train, and leave the showing to the know it alls.

[Beasmom]

Um, excuse me, but I enjoy showing and do not "know it all" by any means! I show to see if we can better our last score, show a better leg-yield or canter lengthening than last time, and see, via video tape, if my seat & position is better this time out. Getting high scores and ribbons is fun, but it's not the end-all of showing.

I'm prone to some irritating "nervous tics" when I show. When I get a 7 for my position, I'm ecstatic! It doesn't happen often. The "tic" is a problem that cannot be replicated except at a show. Beyond getting a judge's evaluation, there is a lot of self-evaluation that goes on at shows.

That's why I do it! It's the attitude I encourage with students who consider showing, too. If they show, I want them to enjoy the experience and learn from it.

[Strictly Classical]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??


I have been following this thread with great interest. I think some of you people are unbelievably cold, but you are entitled to your opinions. I also think that several of you really didn't read what the OP wrote in the opening post of this topic.

I can understand where you are. I, too, get frustrated with certain aspects of this sport. Its not frustration with the horses, or the training. I too ride non-traditional breeds. I teach some lessons on the side to students (adults) who are lower level riders, on non-traditional breeds who are utilizing dressage to supplement their own knowledge (brought with them from other disciplines), or to simply grow in their understanding of good horsemanship, or to learn to ride a horse safely for personal enjoyment.

For a while I have felt like I need to "broaden" my own education by showing more. I personally don't like showing. I'm simply NOT a competitive person. I also think that showing can put undue stress on horses and some people, depending on their personality types. Some people do enjoy showing, and that is wonderful for them. Speaking simply for my own self, showing seems to put more pressure on me,and I, in turn, put more pressure on my horse to attain proficiency in a faster manner than we should. I just don't like that because when I'm worried about preparing for an upcoming show then I seem to become more driven. With that intense focus I start to see my time with my horses as more "work" than simply training, and enjoying the process it entails, and seeking pleasure from it.

I also work a full time job as a middle school teacher. There are many days during the school year, that I find that caring for my horses, and working with the occasional student takes time away from my own riding. When I don't feel as on top of my game with my own horse, I tend to view it a waste of time to go show. It does cost a lot of money - even schooling shows can get expensive when your looking at a couple hundred in cost for the fees, time, travel, etc. involved to participate. So, generally I find that I stay home, ride when I can, and enjoy the training of my own horses in my own time.

I am serious about the continuation of my own dressage education. I do love to clinic, and do so at every opportunity. To me, money spent to ride with a good clinician, gives me more "outside" feedback that I can get from riding a 6 - 7 min. dressage test in front of a judge. I come away from the clinic with not only advice, but homework to practice with until next time. I also enjoy going to take lessons with my coach. She lives about an hour and a half away from me, so I only trailer out for lessons about every six weeks or so. Still, the expense of lessons gives me more feedback - and I feel it is consistent feedback - than what I would get from showing. Plus, there is the homework factor again.

As a very small time professional, I deep down have always felt like I needed to have more of a show background. It seems that in the horse world, if you train horses or riders, you just aren't taken as seriously unless you have a show record that is as long as your arm with accolades, championships, and titles under your belt. Perhaps that is just me putting my own self under that assumption. I just hate the notion that some folks view showing as the "be all end all" tell-tale requirement for a good and competent trainer. Its not.

I work with average riders, who don't have terribly lofty "ambitions" or goals. I make it plain up front when I take on a new student that I'm not into the show scene. I'm much more focused on being known for good horsemanship and passing those skills on to others. So far, my own lack of showing has not had a negative impact on my ability to teach or for my students to feel like that I have actually helped them and their horse find a better, stronger, more enjoyable relationship.

Even if I did have the drive to pursue showing goals, I don't have the money or the time to throw at it. I simply don't. Does that make me less of a good horseman? I don't think so. Does it make the knowledge and skills that I could potentially pass on to someone else less valuable? I don't think so.

To the OP - I don't know you, or the kind of clients you cater to. Perhaps they don't care as much about showing. Maybe they just want to learn to be good horsemen. If you have successfully worked with many non-traditional dressage breeds then I would guess you are pretty good at what you do. This sport is hard. It requires much discipline and dedication to turn out a well-trained riding horse - not to mention an upper level dressage horse. Daily training to develop correctly schooled horses requires massive amounts of dedication and discipline. Show riders are not the only ones who have dibs on the possession of "dedication".

To springboard to the OP's original post, it does hurt to see riders who are show driven to show that they put themselves and their horses under massive amounts of pressure to compete at levels for which they are not prepared. I think that is where the OPs comments about ammies who cannot sit a trot came from. Whether you want to admit it or not - or whether or not you want to take exception to this notion - we all know its true. Some people will do what ever it takes - aka. throwing massive amounts of money to buy the upper level horse, or hire the FEI trainer/rider/coach - to help them achieve show ring glory - when they simply have not taken the time to develop their own skills to earn what they think they want: championship ribbons. In those instances, it is painful to watch those rides. Its painful for anyone who loves the horse and can feel its angst in having to put up with unsteady, bouncing seats, gripping legs, and bouncing, pulling hands.

Through good training, not only do you [the trainer] enrich the lives of human beings who want a better relationship with their horse by becoming a well-educated, competent rider. You also are definitely enriching the lives of horses by giving them a solid education. You are ensuring that who ever owns them will have a horse that will be given a good home, because they are a safe, reliable, well-trained horse.

OP - I feel sorry for you and your frustrations. I think you are just tired of certain aspects to this sport. It is hard to deal with the rail birds who just love to rip you up and tear you apart. The silver lining in that is this - if they didn't see something god going on then they would likely not give rip. If you are a topic of conversation, then carry on girlfriend. You must be doing something good and enviable.

You know, showing in any discipline is subjective. Maybe in dressage it is less so than in other disciplines. Still, there is a degree of opinion metered out in each and every score sheet. We all know that there is much controversy associated with judging currently. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Even the best of judges are commenting on only a few moments in time. It really can not validate whether or not you are a success (or failure).

Maybe you just need time away from teaching/training altogether. Although, I suspect, that you would miss it very much. A true teacher at heart always would miss the opportunity to work with those truly hungry for knowledge. Maybe you just need to take time to give yourself a much needed break from the competition world. Focus on your horses, your students, and developing your own education more. Take lessons with a respected mentor. Go to clinics with some really top notch clinicians - to ride and to audit. It might be rejuvinating, and give you a different perspective in time.

I wish you well and sincerely hope that you can pul yourself up out of this slump, and rediscover your love for the discipline [not the "sport"].

[goeslikestink]

winnings a bonus trying is the goal as then you can improve

like i said teaching is to encourage people and improve them not discourage people and then bad mouth them off because its not going the way you want it to

[paintlady]

There's a LOT of crap in the horse showing world regardless of discipline. But Dressage is different because it's only about you, your horse, the judge, and the score. Everything else really doesn't matter.


I haven't read all of the responses, but I really like this statement. I have a 15.2 QH/Paint mare - about as far from a typical "dressage" mount as one can get. However, I started doing dressage a few years ago. We've been doing local schooling shows for the past year. I'm having a blast! I don't focus my energy on what I don't have, but rather enjoy what I do have and the progress we're making as a team.

[Bluey]

---"Originally Posted by GreekDressageQueen
There's a LOT of crap in the horse showing world regardless of discipline. But Dressage is different because it's only about you, your horse, the judge, and the score. Everything else really doesn't matter."---

Dressage is not the only one, other disciplines also judge the horse's performance against a standard for each class, not other horses in that class.:)

I understand the OP being burned out and saying so.:yes:

I don't agree that her reasons are all fair to so many others out there showing honestly and minding their own business, when she choosed to focus on those that may have been critical of her and so becoming herself critical of and dismissing all dressage exhibitors offhand.:no:

[goeslikestink]

riginally Posted by TwiceAsNice View Post
I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??


you know i re read this------- snobbery ha ha

you want a warmblood thats doesnt get you in the ring alone you know

mate 1st when you teaching if say 1 person and 1 horse you know there three personalties
you the rider and the horse you times that by how ever many riders and horses you teaching
2nd

you are who your born to be -- snobs who are the snoobs they are people they eat the same and pooh the same way you do -
meaning they arnt any better than the person you are if you want to be a snob
then be yourself without putting on airs anfd graces then people will respect who you are and if you any good then they will reccomend you by word of mouth and you then will get known but in the same token if you are not any good you get reccomended the same way

so my freind ----- if you want change then you have to change it

[GreekDressageQueen]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4238713
Dressage is not the only one, other disciplines also judge the horse's performance against a standard for each class, not other horses in that class.:)
[/QUOTE]

Honestly Bluey, sometimes I think you just LOVE to disagree with everything I say. :) But seriously, I've shown in every English discipline (and some Western when I was a kid) at some point in my life and I truly think dressage is more isolated (for lack of a better word) than other disciplines/shows where each horse is tested against a "standard." I could list a myriad of differences that make dressage more individually-friendly IMO, but it really boils down to a personal sentiment. I've never felt that superficial things like the price of my clothes, tack, horse, who my trainer is, how much money I have, etc. has ever really made a difference in my scores. Quality and correctness is what it is, regardless. ;)

[slc2]

Showing 'crap'. 'Hate showing'....etc.

I'm not even going to address the OP's original comments about trainer burnout. If you're THAT burnt out and bitter against everything as a trainer, get out of the business. NOW.

And to be honest while the arguments sound very emotionally appealing to OTHER burnouts, or other people who want to beat their chests about how unfair 'all the judges' are, or people who feel slighted with their 'off breed' (Lordy what an emotionally attractive argument THAT one is), I don't see anything that sounds other than just plain old sour grapes. If you as a trainer are not doing well showing, and not getting customers, make changes. How about instructor certification? How about going to take some lessons yourself, and increasing your skills? How about CHANGE? Instead of whine whine whine? And yes, if you can't cut it, PLEASE do quit. Don't teach people when you have such a negative attitude.

Showing can be a fantastic experience - it all depends on how you go about it and what you make of it. Pick good judges with training and experience, pick shows that suit your level and your interests - there are many small, more casual friendly recognized shows that hire very good judges, quit chasing points and awards, and quit going to so MANY shows, LOL.

The mistake people make that becomes so embarrasingly obvious at shows, is that they are not enjoying themselves because they are over mounted. Make sure you're not in that camp.

Back in the day my absolute favorite was Waterloo, a small friendly recognized show with wonderful managment (one very hot year they provided watermelon and lemonade for all, LOL), a relaxed atmosphere, excellent judges and arenas that had won awards for the excellence of the footing. My horse started neighing the minute we turned in the driveway at Waterloo.

If a person would go to only 3 shows a year, say, and plan them for when they are well prepared (and buy a horse one can control and enjoy riding even in a new place) showing could be what it's meant to be - not a goal chasing disappointment, but memorable times with friends and wonderful horses, and an experienced judge who helps you stay on the right path in training your horse.

Showing is one of the ONLY practical ways to evaluate your progress, but also how well your riding instructor is helping you set goals and technically, what s/he is correcting and having you work on; you better go to the show and have no surprises and know exactly just about exactly what you'll score, what you'll lose and gain points on, and most importantly, what the general impression comments will be.

If a trained judge is obviously not on the same page as your instructor, Houston we have a problem. How else can you get an opinion you trust? Sure, another local trainer will tell you your instructor is crap and you must run to their barn or your horse will spontaneously combust, but are they just trying to snag a new customer, or telling the truth?

If you are walking away from a show disappointed, angry, bitter, feeling unfairly treated, stressed out and like quitting, look to yourself for the solution, not others. Learning to compete gracefully, learning to win and to lose, learning to have realistic expectations of your riding, will be one of the better things you ever do for yourself.

[Bluey]

Honestly Bluey, sometimes I think you just LOVE to disagree with everything I say. :) But seriously, I've shown in every English discipline (and some Western when I was a kid) at some point in my life and I truly think dressage is more isolated (for lack of a better word) than other disciplines/shows where each horse is tested against a "standard." I could list a myriad of differences that make dressage more individually-friendly IMO, but it really boils down to a personal sentiment. I've never felt that superficial things like the price of my clothes, tack, horse, who my trainer is, how much money I have, etc. has ever really made a difference in my scores. Quality and correctness is what it is, regardless. ;)


Sorry, I definitely don't disagree with all you say, I don't think.:confused:
I don't pay attention to who I answer to, just the words in the post and if I disagree with someone, is purely by chance of what is being discussed.:yes:

Now, cutting and reining comes to mind as disciplines judged on the individual horse, for the class being shown, not other horses in that class, similar to how dressage is judged.
That is what I had in mind with my words and I guess I should have specified that.:)

[slc2]

In fact two specific people are more likely to continue over time disagreeing, and even on many subjects continue to disagree, if their opinions are at all set; though most disagreement here is over wording and degree rather than actual content. For example someone uses the word 'firm' and that word sets people spinning, or 'correction' or 'punishment' is assumed to be something like beating the horse over the head with a baseball bat rather than quietly repeating the exercise or riding a half halt, or 'increased energy or impulsion' gets the usual 'impulsion backlash' here ('it's not good to increase tempo', oh it sure could be, especially when you're going too slow). We have a very strong and repetitive pattern of 'oh no it ain'ts' here that goes on and on and on...solution? gird thy loins. It will never go away.

[nhwr]

I guess my question is; if you are actually "done with dressage", why come here to forum full of posters you have (presumably) never met and spew upon those who are interested? What does the OP think they are accomplishing with that?

Reminds of people who say they are finished with their spouse and then take 5 years to divorce. They aren't finished, they are just moving on to a different (and not particularly healthy) phase of their relationship :winkgrin:

Done means you don't need to hash anything out.

[CatOnLap]

CatOnLap - if you are right I am going to smack myself and feel like an idiot for reading all this.
smacking yourself yet? Troll/OP has not returned to this board since the first post on this thread. Of course, I am enjoying the discussion on small businesses and dead beat customers.


To me it seems that the legal system with regards to small civil matters like unpaid horse board, or small unpaid invoices in any small business, is just designed for the court to make its fees ( WHICH IT always COLLECTS- YOU CAN'T PLAY TILL YOU PAY UP FRONT) so it can perpetuate its legal sham, and for lawyers to make their fees ( which they seem to almost always collect). The times I have heard of a plaintiff actually recouping their losses are exceptions to the rule which is people waste time in court instead of plotting a useful revenge.

[nhwr]

To me it seems that the legal system with regards to small civil matters like unpaid horse board, or small unpaid invoices in any small business, is just designed for the court to make its fees ( WHICH IT always COLLECTS- YOU CAN'T PLAY TILL YOU PAY UP FRONT) so it can perpetuate its legal sham, and for lawyers to make their fees ( which they seem to almost always collect). The times I have heard of a plaintiff actually recouping their losses are exceptions to the rule which is people waste time in court instead of plotting a useful revenge.3 words; Small Claims court

No lawyers allowed and in my state the limit is for damage claims is $7500. Anyone with a written contract pretty much prevails and loser must pay costs if the winner asks for them. Anyone who lets a client get behind more than $7500 is too foolish for small claims court.

I am curious ... what would be considered "useful revenge"?

[Eclectic Horseman]

[quote=nhwr;4240385]3 words; Small Claims court

No lawyers allowed and in my state the limit is for damage claims is $7500. Anyone with a written contract pretty much prevails and loser must pay costs if the winner asks for them. Anyone who lets a client get behind more than $7500 is too foolish for small claims court.
[quote]

This largely depends on your jurisdiction. Here the small claims damage limit is $2000. If the defendant doesn't pay a judgment entered against him, then the case has to go to what is called "supplementary process" where the judge determines the defendant's ability to pay and orders a payment plan. Often defendants do not appear, or they miss payments, and the plaintiff has to keep taking time off and showing up in court. In such cases, which are not infrequent, it may cost more in time and money to collect the debt than the debt itself. :no:

Too bad there is no debtor's prison anymore. ;)

[Arizona DQ]

I know dressage trainers who do not show, who ride/train mostly off-breeds and are very good with lower level dressage riders. They operate out of non-dressage barns and make a good living teaching dressage to beginners. .

That is my trainer exactly! She makes a living, albeit does not live a "fancy" life.. but she is satisfied with her "job" and we students all love her! She gets her satisfaction when one of us students have an "AH HA" moment and the light bulb comes on in our thick heads...:lol:

We have a complete mix of "off-breeds" in the barn from Appy x TB to a retired prison guard horse for beginners. She has no aspirations to go "big time" but will bring her students as far as we want or are capable of doing... Hey none of us are "Olympic" material but some of us have qualified for the State Finals...;)

It is a matter or what your goals are and what you are capable of accomplishing.....:D

[CosMonster]

I think the OP is a troll and most if not all of what she/he wrote sounds like it was trying to get a rise out of people, but I do think there is an element of truth to the warmblood griping. The fact is, it takes a fantastic amount of money to be successful at the highest levels in this sport and most people do not have that. So you either compete against all the other talented-but-broke trainers for a sponsor who will pay the bills but who will take away a lot of control of your own business, or you are stuck at a lower level, making less money. Yeah, you might get that lucky break and stumble upon that $800 racetrack reject that can make it to the Olympics (:lol: when was the last time that happened in dressage?) but it's very unlikely and then there's still the cost of campaigning it to that level. It can be very frustrating to know that money is what is keeping you from reaching the highest levels of your profession.

It can also be very hard as a pro to make a living without competing unless you've competed so extensively and to a high enough level (which takes the aforementioned $$$) to make a name for yourself. Of course, that one I have less sympathy for because that's just the job.

Overall most of the OP's gripes do sound like burnout/jealousy/trolling and if it was an honest post I think he/she should quit training. I'm the brokest kid there ever was in dressage, never paid more than $1000 for a horse (and even thought that was high :lol:) and I still manage to train in this business and not make snarky comments about other riders not being able to sit their horses, and I also (gasp!) find that most of the wealthy riders, trainers, and breeders in the area are quite friendly and welcoming if you actually try to talk to them!

[Foxtrot's]

If I was the OP I probably would not come back to this board either after these hard nosed comments. I, for one, have experienced a burnout, or loss of motivation, especially if one hits a plateau in one's riding. What I think the OP is saying, with some truth, that to reach the potential of her ambition she does not have the resources, and that she feels it sucks.

Well, unfortunately, lots of people have to rein in their ambitions and enjoy the journey as far as they can go... I am sure she is not the only one who would dream of the highs of upper level competitioin, but realize it is not attainable for them.

There is local competition which can take most people to a satisfying level. Our own daughter worked at a show-jumping barn for an Olympian and realized that she would have to drop that ambition when she got into the real world of show-jumping. She actually went on to be successful in another sport.

Heck, take a break, reassess, follow your passion.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

smacking yourself yet? Troll/OP has not returned to this board since the first post on this thread. Of course, I am enjoying the discussion on small businesses and dead beat customers.


To me it seems that the legal system with regards to small civil matters like unpaid horse board, or small unpaid invoices in any small business, is just designed for the court to make its fees ( WHICH IT always COLLECTS- YOU CAN'T PLAY TILL YOU PAY UP FRONT) so it can perpetuate its legal sham, and for lawyers to make their fees ( which they seem to almost always collect). The times I have heard of a plaintiff actually recouping their losses are exceptions to the rule which is people waste time in court instead of plotting a useful revenge.

"Legal Sham" Ouch. $12,000 for small claims here. Why shouldn't the judge and clerical staff get paid? And lawyers aren't involved in small claims--that's the point--they don't get any fees. If you aren't in small claims due to circumstance and venue then why wouldn't the lawyers get paid? Someone is always going to lose. Plus, if you don't want to pay a lawyer then you can also choose to represent yourself...(I mean if the plaintiff looses regardless *shrug*).

The legal system is flawed, but so is every other system I've ever seen, unfortunately. I too want to know what a "useful revenge" is! I'm intrigued.

Did the OP ever show up again? I lost track.

Re the topic. I think any competition is going to have snobs or people who would like to buy their way up the levels if they can. I imagine some trainer was only too happy to sell them that horse they can't sit. Not all judges are nice and there is nothing on the score sheet for "hard work." So those fancy warmbloods will probably beat you. They move better (they were bred that way, don't blame them). If you are riding an OTTB, like me, you can congratulate yourself on the fact that your horse (might) have actually EARNED money for someone at some point. In other words, life is not fair. Seriously though, If you are sincere then you are totally burned out. Time to take a break. You do sound a bit whiney though. Next time warn everyone that you are just "venting" and they will be much nicer....maybe

[YankeeLawyer]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.



I have not read all the other posts but why, if you are a "professional dressage rider/trainer", are you only riding your own horses? I know a number of good pros who do not even own a horse.

[CatOnLap]

"Legal Sham" Ouch. $12,000 for small claims here. Why shouldn't the judge and clerical staff get paid? And lawyers aren't involved in small claims--that's the point--they don't get any fees. If you aren't in small claims due to circumstance and venue then why wouldn't the lawyers get paid? Someone is always going to lose. Plus, if you don't want to pay a lawyer then you can also choose to represent yourself...(I mean if the plaintiff looses regardless *shrug*).

The legal system is flawed, but so is every other system I've ever seen, unfortunately. I too want to know what a "useful revenge" is! I'm intrigued.

Did the OP ever show up again? I lost track.


A) No she has not returned to any of the threads she has stirred up, I mean started.

B) Judges are all lawyers. They always get paid. They also designed the system. They created the rules. They are, for the most part, the politicians that we elect to create such systems. So please don't try and tell me no lawyers are involved in small claims. Saying no system is perfect is simply an excuse for your complacency about a particular system that mostly benefits a small group of wealthy individuals and does little good to the public anymore.

C) I never said that civil servants shouldn't get paid. Where are you making this stuff up from? I do think that claimants who are succesful should also get paid and have their court costs covered. That was my complaint. The court system, from a claimant's side, appears to be a large funnel drawing cash from claimants who have it, to the benefit of lawyers and the civil servants they employ in their lawyering, and often without any benefit to the claimant. It is smoke and mirrors.

D) Ever tried to represent yourself in court? Laughable suggestion. Unless you are a lawyer, you are likely to be found in contempt or in breach of procedural rules you don't even know about. Modern law has strayed so far from common law that it is incomprehensible to the average citizen without the services of an interpreter.

D) ever succesfully collected from small claims settlement? The case may be succesful, but often the claimant sees not a dime.

E) I am sorry I cannot counsel you as to what a useful revenge might be. You have to be creative. Also it is difficult to talk with this tongue in my cheek. ( sorry there are no "evil grin"or "tongue in cheek" smilies here on this board)

:winkgrin:

[arabesque]

I have a lot of difficulty summoning compassion for the OP, while my dressage horse recovers in ICU from barn fire...

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

A) No she has not returned to any of the threads she has stirred up, I mean started.

B) Judges are all lawyers. They always get paid. They also designed the system. They created the rules. They are, for the most part, the politicians that we elect to create such systems. So please don't try and tell me no lawyers are involved in small claims. Saying no system is perfect is simply an excuse for your complacency about a particular system that mostly benefits a small group of wealthy individuals and does little good to the public anymore.

C) I never said that civil servants shouldn't get paid. Where are you making this stuff up from? I do think that claimants who are succesful should also get paid and have their court costs covered. That was my complaint. The court system, from a claimant's side, appears to be a large funnel drawing cash from claimants who have it, to the benefit of lawyers and the civil servants they employ in their lawyering, and often without any benefit to the claimant. It is smoke and mirrors.

D) Ever tried to represent yourself in court? Laughable suggestion. Unless you are a lawyer, you are likely to be found in contempt or in breach of procedural rules you don't even know about. Modern law has strayed so far from common law that it is incomprehensible to the average citizen without the services of an interpreter.

D) ever succesfully collected from small claims settlement? The case may be succesful, but often the claimant sees not a dime.

E) I am sorry I cannot counsel you as to what a useful revenge might be. You have to be creative. Also it is difficult to talk with this tongue in my cheek. ( sorry there are no "evil grin"or "tongue in cheek" smilies here on this board)

:winkgrin:

I applaud your passion and encourage you to fight for reform. I probably am complacent. I try to avoid all court related things (including the tv shows). I would argue, however, that all lawyers and judges are not wealthy individuals and probably have a boatload of debt. I looked it up and the average lawyer salary in my midwest state is only $50,000. I think dental hygenists working 4 days a week make more. Also, the high levels of suicide, divorce, and alcohol and drug abuse in the profession evidence that they aren't very happy either. I know lawyers who are jack @sses and I know lawyers who are public servants and give back to the community. My guess is you or someone you care about had a really crappy experience with the legal system (I did too, btw).

I would argue claimnants usually get something as most cases settle out of court.

Re revenge, I realized you were talking tongue and cheeck and was responding in like fashion--I wasn't being serious.

I wonder if the OP even bothered to read any of these responses...

[atlatl]

D) ever succesfully collected from small claims settlement? The case may be succesful, but often the claimant sees not a dime.


Actually, I have. It was a couple of days past the deadline, but then I was dealing with a company and not an individual.

Overall, the small claims systems worked great for me.

[atlatl]

Regarding lawyers in general:

Do you like having seat belts in your vehicle? Thank a lawyer.

Do you like having laws in place to protect against the dumping of toxic waste? Thank a lawyer.

The legal community is a cross section of the population, just like the horse community. Some folks are great; others, not so much.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Regarding lawyers in general:

Do you like having seat belts in your vehicle? Thank a lawyer.

Do you like having laws in place to protect against the dumping of toxic waste? Thank a lawyer.

The legal community is a cross section of the population, just like the horse community. Some folks are great; others, not so much.

Actually, you can blame CLIENTS. Lawyers are just mouth pieces for the asshats who hire them.

And no, lawyers do not often turn down clients for philosophical reasons. Mostly because they like to pay the mortgage and feed the family.

[nhwr]

* prevailed in small claims court - check
* collected on a judgement - check (not difficult to do if the debtor values their credit rating)
* used a lawyer for issues outside of small claims court and won - check
* been effed over by same lawyer - check


The legal system is definitely not perfect. So plan your life to stay out of it, if you can. For a trainer that might look like a reasonable contract with your clients. That might include references or a deposit. Nobody likes collecting money from people you work with but it is part of the job. Be professional but don't let clients get behind. The farther behind they get, the less likely you will see the $$.

One last thing about lawyers; An ethical lawyer's first responsibility it to inform their client when they are being an asshat. Doesn't happen often enough, IMO.

[Eclectic Horseman]

*
One last thing about lawyers; An ethical lawyer's first responsibility it to inform their client when they are being an asshat. Doesn't happen often enough, IMO.

I don't believe that's true. Can you provide a citation to the Rules of Professional Reponsibility for that?

[nhwr]

Rule 3-200 Prohibited Objectives of Employment

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_generic.jsp?sImagePath=Current_Rules.gif&sCategoryPath=/Home/Attorney%20Resources/Rules/Rules%20of%20Professional%20Conduct&sFileType=HTML&sCatHtmlPath=html/RPC_Current-Rules-3-200.html

OK so it does actually say asshat, but I think it applies.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Rule 3-200 Prohibited Objectives of Employment

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_generic.jsp?sImagePath=Current_Rules.gif&sCategoryPath=/Home/Attorney%20Resources/Rules/Rules%20of%20Professional%20Conduct&sFileType=HTML&sCatHtmlPath=html/RPC_Current-Rules-3-200.html

OK so it does actually say asshat, but I think it applies.

Actually no, it's a lot more specific than just being an asshat. In my jurisdiction, the courts don't let attorneys get away with frivolous or malicious suits. Those are usually brought pro se. ;)

[atlatl]

Actually, you can blame CLIENTS. Lawyers are just mouth pieces for the asshats who hire them.

And no, lawyers do not often turn down clients for philosophical reasons. Mostly because they like to pay the mortgage and feed the family.

Like I said; a cross section of the population at large.

[slight]

I have a lot of difficulty summoning compassion for the OP, while my dressage horse recovers in ICU from barn fire...

I came back to check on the thread for larks and saw this post; I am so sorry :no:

What is the prognosis for your horse?

I know of a local horsewoman who also had a terrible barn fire - she is so on the ball and careful, didn't even have electricity in the barn - they never found out what caused the fire.

[slc2]

arabesque, i hope your horse recovers fully, what a terrible shame about the barn fire.

lawyers are not often mouthpieces for asshats. often when they are in the role we most object to, their are fulfilling a valuable function, which is simply making sure the justice system works, such as defending a murderer. they are usually more like making the prosecutor do his/her job than 'defending the murderer'.

[Ajierene]

B) Judges are all lawyers. They always get paid. They also designed the system. They created the rules. They are, for the most part, the politicians that we elect to create such systems. So please don't try and tell me no lawyers are involved in small claims. Saying no system is perfect is simply an excuse for your complacency about a particular system that mostly benefits a small group of wealthy individuals and does little good to the public anymore.

I think the point was that there are no lawyers paid to represent either side of a suit.

C) I never said that civil servants shouldn't get paid. Where are you making this stuff up from? I do think that claimants who are succesful should also get paid and have their court costs covered. That was my complaint. The court system, from a claimant's side, appears to be a large funnel drawing cash from claimants who have it, to the benefit of lawyers and the civil servants they employ in their lawyering, and often without any benefit to the claimant. It is smoke and mirrors.

The court has to be paid no matter who wins. How would you, as an administrative assistant or bailiff, have your $10/hour wage paid only if the right person wins? Or would you prefer your taxes raised?

D) Ever tried to represent yourself in court? Laughable suggestion. Unless you are a lawyer, you are likely to be found in contempt or in breach of procedural rules you don't even know about. Modern law has strayed so far from common law that it is incomprehensible to the average citizen without the services of an interpreter.

My friend went to small claims court sans 'interpreter'. If there was something she did not understand, she asked the judge to clarify. There was nothing she, as an average citizen, did not understand, however. I have been to small courts (traffic offenses, sat on jury duty once) and have not had any trouble understanding anything the judge has said or any parts of the proceedings. As stated at the beginning of the proceedings, if I had any trouble, I was fully within my means to ask for clarification.

D) ever succesfully collected from small claims settlement? The case may be succesful, but often the claimant sees not a dime.

My friend won her suit and the right to garnish the other person's wages if he did not pay up. She is currently collecting her settlement.

[arabesque]

sorry to have gone off topic...but to those who asked...Suki doing very well, in spite of the extensive burns. She is very brave. They are quite pleased with her progress and attitude!
Thanks!

[FancyFree]

I have not read all the other posts but why, if you are a "professional dressage rider/trainer", are you only riding your own horses? I know a number of good pros who do not even own a horse.

That's an interesting observation. Now that I think about it, only one trainer I've had owned her own horse. She gave lessons as a lark, not really a profession. All the others competed their clients' horses.

[CatOnLap]

To answer someone ASSumption that I have known someone close who did not get satisfaction from the current system: I know many many people who have had unhappy and clearly unjust and costly experiences, in fact, dozens if not more, but they are all former and present clients. I have managed to settle all my personal affairs with minimal involvement from that unhelpful system, however. The reason I hold this opinion, as a non lawyer, is from working in the courts system for close to a decade before quitting in disgust over the widespread lack of justice in all the various areas I was working in. I no longer felt I could accept a paycheck from work in a system which to me, seems to perpetuate the problem in most cases, by drawing attention and cash away from possible helpful solutions to the problems that commonly present in court.

And yes, I am actively working with organzations that support reform and/or abolition of the current system.

[slc2]

I'm not sure any system is perfect; the legal system is a compromise between many different competing requirements, the law has many limitations, and not everyone any the system is completely keeping the right goal in mind.

But the law is not designed, and no law in no country is ever designed, to protect people who don't have legal contracts. It's a very sad thing, but most arrangements in the horse business are too informal to stand up in court...at the same time, the court can't get money that isn't there.

[merrygoround]

I'm done!
After years making a living as a professional dressage rider/trainer I am officially throwing in the towel.

I'm tired of the elitist crowd, I can't afford a big imported warmblood and although I do fairly well on my "off" breeds I'm tired of the uphill climb. I was at a large show this past weekend and decided I just don't fit in this world anymore. I feel like I will never have the amount of money required to truly compete at the level I want to.

I'm sick to death of rollkur, fashion and people who think they know it all. I'm tired of amateurs owning horses they will never be able to sit, while I plunk along on my non-warmbloods. I'm sick of the snobbery, sick of the gossip.

Anyone else gotten to this point??

Sorry darlin, but you sound as though you are one of those "teachers and trainers", who had no qualifications to teach or train in the first place.

It's hard to get those qualifications unless you come out from under the bridge. :D

[goeslikestink]

Sorry darlin, but you sound as though you are one of those "teachers and trainers", who had no qualifications to teach or train in the first place.

It's hard to get those qualifications unless you come out from under the bridge. :D

arh----- someone gets the same as me only you said it better than i did