QUESTION: Jumper sire (or dam for that matter) influence on dressage breeding.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Question for all you warmblood breeders: do you ever deliberately choose a jumper sire for your dressage breeding program?

Have you been pleased with the results (you don't have to mention specifics.)

I have read Dr. Ludwig Christmann's paper (http://www.hanoverian.com/ludwigherit.html) ... well, and it can be somewhat difficult to understand. But, I notice that the most heritable trait is jumping. So, would a dressage breeder deliberately choose a jumper stallion to add ... ??? I don't know ... would it affect the gaits as well?

What are your thoughts, experience or opinions?

_______________
Dr. Christmann uses the BLUP animal model ... and if you can understand this paper (http://www-naweb.iaea.org/nafa/aph/stories/Blup_Animal_Model.pdf) on the subject, I'd love for you to explain it to me!!!

[not again]

In our dressage breeding program we never want to breed out the jump, but are very careful to use jumper lines with excellent rideability. We want a great canter, and a great mindset for counting flying changes which don't degenerate into leaping and bucking!! We want a horse with a great trot, and the patience to sit and trot in place when asked, but not the rest of the time. We want a relaxed and powerful walk, that can lengthen and shorten without temper tantrums.

Some jumper lines may keep the strength over the back, but give you a less cooperative attitude after second or third level. An FEI horse, which will give years of willing service to make it into the grand prix ring, is a unique blend to to brains, strength and cooperation.

That is why we like to ride what we breed and breed what we ride, in a nutshell.

[stoicfish]

http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/breedingforum/christmanstallions/christmannstallions.html

Who has carried on his line in Hanover?
"There is Landor S, he has been very popular, he is a private stallion. Another private stallion is Landclassic. A similar line in Hanover, tracing back to Ladykiller xx is Laptop, he also produces good offspring that are interesting for dressage. There is the opinion, expressed for example by Mr Gerd Rietbrock who is a member of our Stallion Licensing Commission and a well-known judge and trainer, that we will get some good dressage horses by using horses with jumping blood and good movement."
"Laptop for example produces some horses with good movement. Wanderer is another example of a jumping stallion that produces horses with lots of suspension. It can be good if you have jumping blood with movement and add this to a dressage-breeding program, not just sticking to pure dressage stallions like Wenzel, Bolero and Donnerhall. You get the power from behind and the strength through the back. But you have to be careful with the bloodlines you choose. Calypso II and Contender have bred some dressage horses. Stakkato offspring, though still very young, seem to be versatile too. I think perhaps we have to re-think the way to produce dressage horses."
"In Hanover we have seen the old G line that has been very successful in producing horses for both dressage and jumping, also the F line, with a stallion like Fabriano who produces both. We have a gene pool of stallions with both talents."


But this is heresy! For the past ten years the trend has been more and more to specialisation of the lines. In the mare show this week, for the first time the classes were divided into dressage and jumping mares, and now you are questioning the wisdom of this trend?
"We have to specialise when we produce jumping horses. I don’t think we would be successful if we used Wenzel or Bolero in the jumping lines, that does not work but I think we have to consider using some jumping blood to produce especially dressage horses for Grand Prix. Breeding horses to win the Bundeschampionate at the age of four is different from breeding Grand Prix dressage horses. When you look at many top Grand Prix horses they are not the ones that win as three and four year olds. Five and six year old classes have more of a correlation to later competition success."
"At the State Stud they brought in a stallion like Conteur, he is bred on classical Holsteiner jumping lines, by Contender and on the mother’s side he has the R line, and he is a very good dressage horse. It should be interesting to try and get some of this blood into our dressage horses. But the stallions to use for this have to be good in their dressage ability, you cannot use any jumping stallion."
"If you look at Drosselklang, he has been very successful in producing international jumping horses but he would be a pure jumping specialist as a stallion, better not to try dressage with his offspring. The same with some of the French horses, the idea is not so much to cross jumping over dressage, but use some of the versatile stallions that combine both qualities."

[madoy]

I personally find his article and the one above to be quite fascinating. My understanding would be that if you bred to a "jumper" stallion, be prepared to get a jumper, and not a horse that could necessarily take you to the FEI ring in dressage. However that said it sounds like the jumpers could get help in the strength department, as long as the "dressage" stallion still had above average jumping skills, as the jumping skills are often quite inheritable. Very cool reading I think. Of course in these cases my impression is that they are speaking only of stallions with proven pedigrees, and proven inheritable characteristics, as in any of the registries that have high standards and insist on all breeding animals be inspected. I think they will continue to be able to improve the quality of horses as long as they are thinking along these lines... just imagine how loose and supple those horses will be! :yes:

I also found it of great interest that he would say that the limbs are not as inheritable, and that the environment has so much to do with how they are. I have always been a fan of "field" raised horses, but now am even more so!

[equusaround]

I bought some Laptop semen 2 years ago to breed to my best broodmare because I liked his GAITS! Laptop has a very expressive trot and a killer canter. His jumping is nice too <vbg>. I haven't used the semen yet, however, and it is still in the tank and now I think I may use it on a daughter of my stallion that jumps 5' with ease and has "8" gaits just to see what I'll get.

Sandro Hit comes to mind as a horse bred for jumping that instead has killer gaits. But my Sandro Hit daughter looks like she's going to be a jumper - go figure. I wanted a dressage horse! But she is drop-dead gorgeous and can she SIT when she canters and turn on a dime! If she wasn't over 16.2 hands at 3, she would be an awesome reiner prospect!

A dressage bred colt by my stallion out of my Bellini mare (dressage lines) keeps jumping my 5' fences...He also has really easy flying changes. Who knows what he'll want to be when (if) he grows up! But then my Weltmeyer colt won't even jump out of the pasture when the fences are knocked down to 3'...he just looks at me and says "mom, I don't jump" - but he does piaffe and passage. (The Weltmeyer colt is out of the same mare as the Sandro Hit filly and they couldn't be more different. I also have a Prestige VDL colt out of that mare and he is very similar to the Sandro Hit filly. But then Prestige VDL has a lot of jumper blood in him too - Holsteiner.)

I think the addition of jumper blood into the dressage lines potentially lightens up the conformation and can "refresh" the canter. Of course, it depends on what jumper lines you add to your breeding.

[Donella]

Hmm, well I am not a jumper person, don't know much about it. I have though, on a few occassions been very drawn to particular "jumper sires" because I see in them or their offspring, talent for the dressage.

Contendro is one of my favs. I love the type he throws and the nice round movement, lots of knee and elasticity. A good canter. From the offspring I have seen on youtube ect I very much wanted to use him on one of my mares to produce a dressage foal (that can hopefully jump a bit too!). Chequille Z and Conteur both come from similiar lineage and as mentioned, are quite dual talented.

I also like Le Primeur (from Laptop/Pinkus). Outstanding mover. I was told by the breeding manager at Spruce said that when Cara Whitham (and some dressage rider friends of hers that had come to watch the Masters) saw Le Primeur working they all stopped and asked who the horse was, how he did not become a dressage horse and Cara said that if she had a dressage mare, that is who she would be breeding to. I don't doubt it, the canter is a true 12 out of ten.

Quattro is another stallion who is traditionallyknown as a jumper sire, jumper lines (and he himself has jumped internationally) ect that has thrown alot of excellent dressage types... Quando Quando, Quantum Tyme, Much Ado...and further down the line...Quaterman, Quaterback, Quaterline ect ect. I would LOVE to have a Quattro foal from one of my mares. Again, another one with a truly breathtaking canter!

So obviously, for me the canter for me is a big thing. If the horse does not have a very sufficient canter then it really is not a quality dressage prospect in my mind. It seems like some of the jumpers can really bring this to the table quite reliably.

[WhatzUp]

Hmm, well I am not a jumper person, don't know much about it. I have though, on a few occassions been very drawn to particular "jumper sires" because I see in them or their offspring, talent for the dressage.

Contendro is one of my favs. I love the type he throws and the nice round movement, lots of knee and elasticity. A good canter. From the offspring I have seen on youtube ect I very much wanted to use him on one of my mares to produce a dressage foal (that can hopefully jump a bit too!). Chequille Z and Conteur both come from similiar lineage and as mentioned, are quite dual talented.

I also like Le Primeur (from Laptop/Pinkus). Outstanding mover. I was told by the breeding manager at Spruce said that when Cara Whitham (and some dressage rider friends of hers that had come to watch the Masters) saw Le Primeur working they all stopped and asked who the horse was, how he did not become a dressage horse and Cara said that if she had a dressage mare, that is who she would be breeding to. I don't doubt it, the canter is a true 12 out of ten.

Quattro is another stallion who is traditionallyknown as a jumper sire, jumper lines (and he himself has jumped internationally) ect that has thrown alot of excellent dressage types... Quando Quando, Quantum Tyme, Much Ado...and further down the line...Quaterman, Quaterback, Quaterline ect ect. I would LOVE to have a Quattro foal from one of my mares. Again, another one with a truly breathtaking canter!

So obviously, for me the canter for me is a big thing. If the horse does not have a very sufficient canter then it really is not a quality dressage prospect in my mind. It seems like some of the jumpers can really bring this to the table quite reliably.

Hi !

Speaking of fanastic canters ...

Did you know that there is a fabulous young Quattro
son just down the road from you ?

KVF Zeno

www.kvf.ca (http://www.kvf.ca)

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[Dressage_Diva333]

I agree that the jump should not be entirely bred out of the Dressage horses, and sometimes jumping stallions to have a different sense of dynamics to add to Dressage horses, but it has to "work". I've got a jumper bred mare (Royal Appearance/Grannus). She is a NICE mare, with a super jump. I'm doing a bit of experimenting with different lines on her... she had a lovely Rubino Bellissimo colt last month, her first foal. This year she is bred to Landfriese II (well, hopefully, still waiting on the 16 day preg check), which I'm quite excited about as he has produced top offspring in Dressage and Jumping, next year I think that she will go to a very different type Dressage stallion than Rubino Bellissimo, I'm considering possibly a "D" lined horse with a bit of jump in the damline, I've got a few ideas, but need to research some more. Although she is jumper in breeding, she's definately a good mover as well, I feel that she could have been successful in Dressage as well as Jumping. If she didn't have the nice movement that she has, I would stick to Jumping stallions... to produce Jumping foals. This Rubino Bellissimo colt is definately a Dressage horse, he has a drop dead gorgeous canter. From what I can tell, he's got a fairly nice trot (he much prefers cantering), and a nice walk. He's a very elastic and well balanced colt. I'm pleased with the cross.

Breeding does need to be selective when using the jumping lines, as mentioned above. Not just any jumping stallion, even put on the finest Dressage mare, can produce a superior Dressage athlete.

It's interesting looking at say... Quaterback and Poetin. Both share a similiar damline. Quaterback's dam is a 1/2 sister to Poetin, coming from Poesie. Poesie is by Brentano II. Quaterback's sire, Quaterman, has many multi talented horses in his pedigree. As does Quaterback's damsire, Brandenburger. I think that he is a prime example of a horse where many multi talented animals come together in one pedigree to produce this sort of "superfreak" of a horse. The jumping lines brought a new dynamic to him in my opinion, and he seems to be crossed very well on entirely Dressage bred mares. I'm anxious for his offspring to get undersaddle, and to see if they have any talent over fences as well. Then you can look at Poetin, by the jumper-bred Sandro Hit. She was breathtaking, also sort of a superfreak of a horse.

This is something I'm actually quite interested in, I breed primarily Dressage horses... but I'd like some jump in there as well :D

[Oldenburg Mom]

Thanks for replying, everyone. This is really fascinating reading ... I'm surprised that what would be inheirited—if the stallion is prepotent—is power from behind and strength over the back. Did I get that right? It seems as if those characteristics would be very important to a dressage horse.

In my ignorance, I thought it might give more "jump" in the canter; having typed that out, I realize that it would depend upon if the stallion had jump in his canter to begin with!!! :lol:

I also find it exciting that people are willing to think outside the box ... which it is apparent all of you are. Verrrrry interesting.

[fannie mae]

Question for all you warmblood breeders: do you ever deliberately choose a jumper sire for your dressage breeding program?

Have you been pleased with the results (you don't have to mention specifics.)

I have read Dr. Ludwig Christmann's paper (http://www.hanoverian.com/ludwigherit.html) ... well, and it can be somewhat difficult to understand. But, I notice that the most heritable trait is jumping. So, would a dressage breeder deliberately choose a jumper stallion to add ... ??? I don't know ... would it affect the gaits as well?

What are your thoughts, experience or opinions?

_______________
Dr. Christmann uses the BLUP animal model ... and if you can understand this paper (http://www-naweb.iaea.org/nafa/aph/stories/Blup_Animal_Model.pdf) on the subject, I'd love for you to explain it to me!!!

without having read the christman-paper:
the answer to your question is a simple "yes!"

reason for that is simple, too:
pure dressage breeding often (most times) lacks power and repetition in the hindleg/many times comes along with weekeness in the back.

both (power and repetition) are substantial features well consolidated in good jumping lines.
thus, adding qualified "jump" to dressagelines makes perfect sense.

just look at the success of calypso (via contender/contendro) - influence in dressage lines.
or the broader based double orientataion of holstein R (ramiro).
i did so myself breeidng quattro to fidermark.

[Tiki]

Basically, if you add a good jumper stallion, with good gaits, to a dressage mare, you put the engine back into the equation.

[Oldenburg Mom]

fannie mae, so in Germany, is this indeed a common practice? Maybe it would be better to say in Europe, as opposed to just Germany.

Tiki, do you think domestic breeders think along the same lines?

[fannie mae]

fannie mae, so in Germany, is this indeed a common practice? Maybe it would be better to say in Europe, as opposed to just Germany.

Tiki, do you think domestic breeders think along the same lines?


don't want to comment on europe as i am already streched out to an unreachable max to cover what is (or SEEMS...) important in germany :-)
common understanding - i would say so. (again, look at the wide spread use of calypso-blood in dressage pedigrees over the last decade or so)
common practice - some do, some don't.
as it does take knowledge about specific jumper lines, too.
not any line/stallion is applicable.
many out there i wouldn't touch for either reasons of lack of knowledge with respect to how they produce or simple "no-no" for me since they delete more than they have to add with respect to dressage (walk, ridability, rhythm, lack of repetition, weakness in back, to only name a few aspects).

than again:
look at the entire KWPN breed and their recent (last decade) success in dressage - the stoodbook is entirely build on jumping origin based on holst, french and others.
yet they seem to overcome the dressage world for a reason.
they have certainly reenvented their own dressage lines from mainly jumping origin and their success cannot be denied.
food for thought.

[YankeeLawyer]

Thanks for replying, everyone. This is really fascinating reading ... I'm surprised that what would be inheirited—if the stallion is prepotent—is power from behind and strength over the back. Did I get that right? It seems as if those characteristics would be very important to a dressage horse.
.

It is, and it is why if you study the pedigrees of dressage horses winning in international competition, many have strong jumper lines. There is not a single dressage mare in my barn for breeding that does not have a jumper influence in the pedigree (and incidentally, all of mine can jump). Last year I chose Stedinger in part because he himself is a very good jumper and has a strong jumper pedigree on bottom (Landadel, out of a mare that has produced dressage, jumper, and 3-day horses). I bred to Rousseau because he also comes from dual talent lines (in fact Roemer showed GP in jumpers *and* dressage). Ferro produces both.

I plan to add some Holsteiner and possibly Selle Francais to my program soon. I also am constantly looking for a jumper sire that can move.

[YankeeLawyer]

than again:
look at the entire KWPN breed and their recent (last decade) success in dressage - the stoodbook is entirely build on jumping origin based on holst, french and others.
yet they seem to overcome the dressage world for a reason.
they have certainly reenvented their own dressage lines from mainly jumping origin and their success cannot be denied.
food for thought.

I just saw this. I completely agree.

[fannie mae]

one more i forgot to add with respect to the headline you chose:
" QUESTION: Jumper sire (or dam for that matter) influence on dressage breeding."

jumper SIRES only.
noone would cross a dressage sire to jumper mare.
reason is: consolidation of genetic background.
understanding is:

the genetic consolidation beased within your (qualified/proven) mareline needs to be established and maintained.
you can easily add a jumper sire on a well consolidated drs damline.
but adding a dressage sire on a consolidated jump damline rather deletes anything that's given there:
taking out the jump in the first place without helping the underlying dressage genetics.

when we look at pedigrees at foal inspections where a pure jumper line is "spoiled" with a dressage sire on top we rather consider it a no-no.
you always have to look at the equasion based on the weakest link:
dressage.
a pure dressage damline won't loose a lot when a jumper is added but doesn't succed. the product might as well remain a good dressage horse and can be used for further breeding.
the other way round is often regarded "toxic":
a pure jumper pedigree is mainly spoiled when a dressage stallion is added as he ultimately will limit any given jumper talents in the outcoming cross (specialy when aimed at further breeding) while he might not add any desired "improvement" features.
noone would touch such foal as a future breeding horse as genetics are de-consolidated fro the next few generations while a well choosen jump on top of a dressage pedigree will still be looked at as a consolidated dressage pedigree, no matter if desired strengthes are in fact improved. after all, most jumpers wont delete as much on a dressage line while the other way round does bite. once spoiled, never forgiven (at least not for the next few generations).

my old boss used to have a nice saying for "equasions" like this (meaning: equasions consisting on same factors/ingredients, while outcomes differ greatly depending on WHAT is defined to be the BASE material) (and please excuse my language):

if you have a bath tub full of "peee" (horse-pee, so to speak...) and you add a glass of champaign to it, it doesn't matter. it will still be a bath tub full of horse pee...
if you have a bath tub full of champaign however and pee in it - well, i guess we agree about it that the champaign immediately is ruined for good... - no doubt... :-)

[Tiki]

Add to what Fannie Mae said, the foal often gets it's gaits from it's mother. You want the jumper engine on the dressage gaits.

Yes, a lot of people in this country do. Also, a lot do not. But it's not that uncommon.

[raffey1]

Fannie Mae, I guess occassionally it is done the other way, hence Dolany from Donnerhall for the German Holsteiners. Of course, they have no primarily "dressage mares" as the starting point.

[Oldenburg Mom]

So,... would it have been a mistake to breed a Landadel Mare to Rubinstein?

[Mythology]

one more i forgot to add with respect to the headline you chose:
" QUESTION: Jumper sire (or dam for that matter) influence on dressage breeding."

jumper SIRES only.
noone would cross a dressage sire to jumper mare.
reason is: consolidation of genetic background.
understanding is:

the genetic consolidation beased within your (qualified/proven) mareline needs to be established and maintained.
you can easily add a jumper sire on a well consolidated drs damline.
but adding a dressage sire on a consolidated jump damline rather deletes anything that's given there:
taking out the jump in the first place without helping the underlying dressage genetics.

when we look at pedigrees at foal inspections where a pure jumper line is "spoiled" with a dressage sire on top we rather consider it a no-no.
you always have to look at the equasion based on the weakest link:
dressage.
a pure dressage damline won't loose a lot when a jumper is added but doesn't succed. the product might as well remain a good dressage horse and can be used for further breeding.
the other way round is often regarded "toxic":
a pure jumper pedigree is mainly spoiled when a dressage stallion is added as he ultimately will limit any given jumper talents in the outcoming cross (specialy when aimed at further breeding) while he might not add any desired "improvement" features.
noone would touch such foal as a future breeding horse as genetics are de-consolidated fro the next few generations while a well choosen jump on top of a dressage pedigree will still be looked at as a consolidated dressage pedigree, no matter if desired strengthes are in fact improved. after all, most jumpers wont delete as much on a dressage line while the other way round does bite. once spoiled, never forgiven (at least not for the next few generations).

my old boss used to have a nice saying for "equasions" like this (meaning: equasions consisting on same factors/ingredients, while outcomes differ greatly depending on WHAT is defined to be the BASE material) (and please excuse my language):

if you have a bath tub full of "peee" (horse-pee, so to speak...) and you add a glass of champaign to it, it doesn't matter. it will still be a bath tub full of horse pee...
if you have a bath tub full of champaign however and pee in it - well, i guess we agree about it that the champaign immediately is ruined for good... - no doubt... :-)

:lol::lol::lol:This made me pee:lol::lol::lol:

But I have heard the same thing-
Dressage stallion x Jumper mare = NO-NO
Jumper stallion x Dressage mare = Posssibly depending on lines
Jumper stallion x Jumper mare = YES (But I breed jumpers :lol:)

[Tiki]

Landadel was a very good mover and has also produced many dressage horses. The thing to do is to pick a jumper sire who is also a very good mover. Just about all of Edgar's horses meet these criteria, Quite Easy produces at least as many very nice dressage horses as jumpers and there are quite a few others. You just don't pick one BECAUSE he is a jumper without all the other stuff in place.

[Edgar]

Being from Holland had me exposed to their way of breeding with lots of Holsteiner /French and TB on top of the older style Dutch horses and those crosses as mentioned above have produced some of the top jumpers and dressage horses in the world. I started looking for stallions with jumping pedigrees who also could produce type and movement. those seem to me the safer choices for a dressage mare or any mare. We succeeded in finding quite a few multi talents. Lots of their offspring have type and great movement besides jump so time will tell if some more have the mental capability and receive the training to end up in the upper levels of dressage. Several allready have. It is a concept I am quite comfortable with and one that seems more commercially interresting.

[fannie mae]

Fannie Mae, I guess occassionally it is done the other way, hence Dolany from Donnerhall for the German Holsteiners. Of course, they have no primarily "dressage mares" as the starting point.

true.
and of course:
exceptions always prove the rule.
there is no such thing like 100% guarantee (to the good or the bad) in breeding.

however, i haven't seen how dolany breeds.
couldn't comment on the securitiy (achieved consolidation or not) of his heritage.
danger is that rather than recieving the best o/o both crosses you end up with the least:
lost jump and damaged dressage. don't know.

i am not too familiar with the holstein breed but from what i understand the introduction of donnerhall to the holst breed was regarded as an experiment by many breeders up there.

i doubt that many serious holst jumper breeders took their preciously bred holst jumper mares to donnerhall.
why should they?
they count and book on the consolidation of their long and well thought of jumping genes.
why experiment adding dressage when that ultimately means to risk the one and only highly holy goal up there (the ultimate jump) that took them hundred years of consolidation to reach in such specialisation ?

i know of one stallion by donnerhall o/o a cordelabryere mare, d'olympic.
greatest dressage horse himself (never saw him jump) and being well used by some eastern german breeders, he happens to be stationed in one of the eastern german state studs.
his get is supposed to be good jumper get and i have seen a few doing good.
i have also seen a few i wouldn't want to introduce to either the one or the other disciplin.
again:
that is a statement that is true for any other given stallion (or mare), too - none of them produce 100% successfully, all of them tend to produce suboptimal, too.
however:
if i do have the chance to limit the theoretically given risk, i do so.
thus, no experiments for me.
even though some of these experiments might as well produce the most stunning horse, you never know.
specially if you consider them endproducts (riding horses only) what is true for 99& of male foals, anyway, since bearly any of them will ever get to breed, anyway.
but if you aim at further breeding i would certainly question the value of the consolidation issue throughout further generations.

[HanoWB88]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

[stoicfish]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

Really good question. I know that his jumping index is 140 for his offspring, but the dressage is lower at 105. However his stallion son Labiat (at Celle), did equally well in his 300 day test with 120 and 121. Another son (Lougheed) had 111 in dressage and 126 jumping.
In the article I posted, Dr. Christmann's opinion is "but I think we have to consider using some jumping blood to produce especially dressage horses for Grand Prix. Breeding horses to win the Bundeschampionate at the age of four is different from breeding Grand Prix dressage horses. When you look at many top Grand Prix horses they are not the ones that win as three and four year olds"
I believe that many of the index stats are based on performance at the younger ages, so I am not sure they are that informative when looking at producing high end dressage horses.
I also wonder if the jumping infusion is meant to be a F1 or an F2 goal?
Labiat was out of a Werther mare, so it looks to me like they were going for a F2 product (not that F1 might not work too).

[selah]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.

We forget that Rubenstein scored higher in jumping than dressage in his stallion testing, and very nearly didn't get tested at all...

http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/RUBINSTEIN/rubinstein.html

Sometimes I think we try to make it sound much more scientific than it probably is...

[fannie mae]

Is LePrimeur a stallion one might breed to a mare with a purely dressage based pedigree (i.e., Rubenstein or Donnerhall) if I want to improve the engine? Or would it only make sense to breed to him if I was looking to produce offspring with more jumper talent? I am not interested in breeding jumpers, but I like his dual attributes.



you sure can.
i have a photocollection of his entire damline in this album, http://pets.webshots.com/album/249814010Suclde?start=12

there you find another licensed stallion premium*89 by pinkus diadem, full sibling to le primeur's dam palue.
if you flip back to page one in that album you find some impressive pictures of wondergirl by wolkenstein o/o palue, wondergirl is le primeur's half sister. the breeder is greatly taking care of this damline and with wondergirl this has entirley turned into a greatly succesful dressagline as wondergirl has been bred to rotspon a couple of times and delivered the licensed stallion re primeur, an absolute rubberball movement-wonder who became stallion of the year age 3, a title that has been given to mostly promising breeding stallions by the hannoverian verband at their first year of breeding. unfortunately, re primeur turned out to be unfertile, so meanwhile he is gelded and performs in S-class, dressage.
you can find a magazine article on re primeur on that page, too.
than there is roxanne, full sister to re primeur, and still precious part of the broodmare herd of the breeder. she had succesful foals by his highness, later on by scolarie, currently in foal to royal highness. amongst others, wondergirl herself has had foals by locksley II, the two youngest still in ownership of the breeder, incapable to decide which of the two to keep as future broodmares as both are overly promising.

yes, in all due respect:
if there is any double oriented jumper stallion out there who german breeders suffer from having lost to the other side of the pond deeply, it is le primeur.
better make good use of him :-)





and here is a link to an article i worte a while ago about him when it became evident that he was sold to NA. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=152807&highlight=le+primeur&page=2

[houserabbitz]

This is an interesting thread for me because I have been thinking about LePrimeur for my Don Frederico/Warkant/Eiger I mare. Thanks for your input, Fannie Mae.

[Foxtrot's]

There is a saying that goes along the lines of it is ok to put a jumper into a dressage line, but one dressage generation in a jumper line is one too many.

[akrogirl]

I have to agree with Edgar that his stallions definitely produce type and movement :-)

I have a wonderful six year old mare by Edgar's stallion, Fuerst Gotthard, out of a TB mare who also has an excellent pedigree for jumping and who has produced several good jumpers previously. My mare can jump, and jump well. Does she want to? - no. Much to the disappointment of a couple of local H/J trainers, she made it abundently clear very early on that she wanted to do dressage. She has three wonderful gaits and has always shown a lot of natural talent for the collected movements so she is being aimed slowly but surely for the upper levels. My mare got her front end from her dam, but she got her "engine" from FG.

On the other hand, my Landkonig youngster out of a Diamont mare seems to be more interested in jumping. She also has wonderful movement and will be started in dressage, but a friend with a lot of experience in such matters keeps telling me she should be a Big Eq horse - we shall see about that, since I aged out more years ago than I care to remember ;-) However, she will defintely be a jumper of some sort. We shall have to see how much of an adverse effect her dressage blood has on her jumping ability.

[Donella]

Le Primeur has not likely been used on a heavy dressage mare base (I could be wrong??) and yet his combined breeding value is still only second to Contendro's. You always have to remember what kind of mares a stallion has likely gotten. He is not likely a horse who reproduces his own type, as the offspring I have seen have been all over the place and outside of Lougheed, look nothing like him. But let me assure you guys, when that horse moves, everything screams dressage!

I was really hoping to use him with our Longchamp/Arkansas/Akzent II mare if frozen doesn't pan out this next cycle. She is a 9 for type mare, and while I would like to add length of leg, I doubt he will (he himself is leggy) but again because his offspring don't seem to look much like him. However, they clearly inherent his athleticism and I am dying to see what he would produce with a real dressage bred mare.

On a bad note, I heard his book is now closed for the year:confused: