Conformation or movement?

[horserider12]

If you were judging a hunter breeding class, would you pin a horse with excellent movement but conformational faults over a horse with very good conformation? Please note, the one with better conformation moves quite well as well, but not as huntery as other horse. Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this after hearing a judge and steward talking about this.

[DMK]

as the owner of the hands down best mover in any hb class he's been in so far, but not the confo winner, the answer is easy - confo trumps movement. fair enough, all the judge sees is the trot, which is the least important gait when it comes to jumping a jump (canter canter canter!)

sorry one handed typing sux

[SilverBalls]

BOTH!

[horserider12]

I would think conformation over movement as well as long as the horse is not a horrid mover,

[Samotis]

Movement should be emphasized more then it is, but if you have a horse with some conformational problems versus a horse that has good conformation and ok movement, second one will win.

I have seen some HB finals and you would be surprised how bad some of the winners move! But, they are drop dead gorgeous to look at. Not saying it is totally right, but it is what it is. I have seen some amazing movers, but overall they are lacking that wow factor conformation wise.

I wish they showed the canter! My yearling has a beautiful walk, good trot, but a phenomenal canter. He just floats across the ground. I wish I could show that off when I show him in August!

What were the judges and stewards saying about it? Just curious.

[Samotis]

That horse Moses that won a few years back didn't move well at all and he still won the HB classes.

Suppose having Kenny Wheeler as your handler helped too though!;)

[Fairview Horse Center]

What I see in Hunter Breeding, is the general placement is rewarded for conformation, then that order is adjusted by moving a horse up or down a place or so due to movement.

This is very different than DSHB classes, where movement usually counts for about 70% of the final score for a young horse (0 -3), and conformation 30%. (about 60 movement/40 conformation for mature horses)

DSHB is VERY much by the numbers with exact percentages added for each criteria.

[horserider12]

the steward (Who was suprised by the outcome of the class) thought they had pinned the class wrong and went to the judge to make sure it was correct. He told her that the one that came in second had the best conformation by far but that his movement was more dressagey. He is an extremely good mover, but floats more than daisy cuts, just moves more like a warmblood and the judge said he liked the other as it moved more thoroughbred like. Granted, both were in the non thoroughbred class so I as the owner was intrigued by this comment as I would think conformation would always trump movement and you would expect warmblood movement to be more floaty and pin accordingly.

[S A McKee]

the steward (Who was suprised by the outcome of the class) thought they had pinned the class wrong and went to the judge to make sure it was correct. He told her that the one that came in second had the best conformation by far but that his movement was more dressagey. He is an extremely good mover, but floats more than daisy cuts, just moves more like a warmblood and the judge said he liked the other as it moved more thoroughbred like. Granted, both were in the non thoroughbred class so I as the owner was intrigued by this comment as I would think conformation would always trump movement and you would expect warmblood movement to be more floaty and pin accordingly.

Are you saying the steward voiced an opinion about the judging? Oh My !!

[TrueColours]

Are you saying the steward voiced an opinion about the judging? Oh My !!


I find that possibility intriguing as well! :lol:

Hands down, conformation over movement. And only if the first few placings are horribly lacking in the movement department, would a better mover move UP over them.

Of course you want the whole package, but if you cant have it, I would take conformation over movement any day ...

[ASBJumper]

This thread intrigued me, as I encountered an interesting situation with my colt last summer when he showed twice as a weanling. In his first show, his biggest "competition" was a lovely Rotspon colt. They both were entered in the CSHA Foal class and the Open Foal class (open to all breeds, but it's almost always exclusively WB and TB foals). The judging criteria for the CSH class is 50% movement and 50% conformation. In that class, my colt placed ahead of the Rotspon. Presumably because he is more of a "Hunter type" (certainly not because there was anything conformationally wrong with the Rotspon baby, he was lovely - but a bit chunkier and more Dressage-y).
In the Open Foal class (4 entries), the judge seemed to be hesitating between the 1st and 2nd places for my colt and the Rotspon, and went to double-check the criteria (60% movement and 40% conformation). Once she got that confirmation she placed the Rotspon baby ahead of mine - probably because his trot was much nicer.
So, I guess the criteria (up here in Canada, anyways) can be slightly different depending on the class offered...

Incidentally, the second show he attended was judged by reknowned Hunter judge Randy Roy, who placed my boy 2nd out of 5 and 2nd out of 9 foals, even though there were some pretty wow movers there, including the Rotspon colt (who was still showing off that WOW trot, but placed 4th or 5th in our classes).

So this brings me to a slight segway, cuz I have a question... although the answer *might* be different for USA peeps, but..:
In HB classes, when they judge the "movement" - are they truly judging both the walk and the trot equally, or does the trot hold more weight?

[VirginiaBred]

I would take movement over conformation in a second (It has everything to do with their performance). I love a pretty one as much as the next person, but I have to have that movement.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would take movement over conformation in a second (It has everything to do with their performance). I love a pretty one as much as the next person, but I have to have that movement.

Ditto! A good mover with conformation issues can be a wonderful competitor, but a perfect conformation horse with poor movement will never make it in the competition arena.

[ASBJumper]

... can anyone answer my question about judging the walk and/or trot in a HB class..?

[horserider12]

they judge both the walk and trot. And just to reiterate, this horse is quite a good mover, just doesn't move like a thoroughbred but would probably win most under saddle classes. So if it has good conformation, good movement vs. conformational faults and good movement........Oh and the steward was not questioning the judges decision, she just thought the judge had told her the other horse won so checked the cards and spoke with the judge to make sure it was correct.

[horserider12]

Ditto! A good mover with conformation issues can be a wonderful competitor, but a perfect conformation horse with poor movement will never make it in the competition arena.

interesting ,I have found that my best movers (one never lost a hack in his career) in a daisy cutting way were not usually good jumpers as they didn't bend their knees enough or come through their shoulders enough over jumps. anyone else find that?

[Fairview Horse Center]

You have to understand that although originally from a Hunter base, I now come from a more DSHB movement focus, and they definitely do use their shoulders, and snap the knees. I don't breed for a classic daisy cutter, as to me, they look too stiff in their movement. For the hunters, I like a horse that uses it's body & legs, has that good moment of float & elasticity, without a lot of break in the knee. Those horses have really super form with their legs over the jumps.

[Samotis]

Yes, most horses that move really flat do not jump good. My friend does have an exception though. He moves freakishly flat and jumps amazing. He does have a funky hind end though.

I remember seeing this horse that moves so straight you could barely see his knees bend. He jumped like crap. Terrible, almost dangerous.

I think that I would take movement over jumping. You ride the movement, not the beauty!

Biggest thing to me is a good canter. If they have a good step, smooth canter and nice way of going they usually will be a good show horse.

(thats if they jump good, which usually a horse with a good canter does!);)

[DMK]

think of it this way - in the logical progression of things as theory, a hb horse would progress from the line to the conformation divisions. so as a youngster you lookl at hunter type and correctness of movement and you only have the trot which is just not that important compared to the canter. but then the horse moves on to the conformation where he doesn't even mak it to the line unless he is the best jumper/mover - only then is his confo judged and it is still weighted less than the jump.

now in the real world that isn't how it works. if you have a horse with any quality of jump, you test him against others with a great jump, aka the non-confo pro divisions. sad that confo has become the last refuge of bleh hunters, but the theoretical structure has a good progression

[TrueColours]

But in a *real* hunter class, the savvy trainer/rider will KNOW that their horse has a 10++ trot and will allow those few trot steps before breaking into a canter to start their round. But on the other hand, if they KNOW their horse only has a *6* or *7* trot, they will come into the ring in a walk or canter and wont allow the less than stellar trot to possibly influence their over fences round

So - a pretty, conformationally correct hunter with a lovely walk and/or canter but less than stellar trot can do very very well in their over fences career. They just wont get a good piece of the hack every time ...

[chunky munky]

Sorry I missed this original thread. I was away running a show. With the North American Pony Futurity this past week we did things in a little different order. Because we are a performance based group we changed the order of presentation. We had each breeding entry trot one at a time into the ring. If they did not behave well enough for the judges( double judged) the judges could ask for a second trot. After all trotted in they stood on the line. We chose to run the bathing suit competition after the talent competition. Sometimes when you fall in love with the body in the bathing suit you may discount mediocre movement after the fact. We chose to put the talent contest before the bathing suit. Before the final placing the judges had the option of trotting them again. I think our exhibitor nominees approved of our protocol. Just a little different way of presenting our youngsters.