It happened at DAL

[BaroqueLady]

We (my teacher and students) noticed her in the warmup ring riding her
horse with his nose consistently close to his chest. My teacher was livid as,
in her mind this is tantamount to abusive behavior.
Surely, I thought, in the test (Intemediaire) the rider would adjust, but no,
she rode the entire test this way.
I did not see the score so I do not know if or how the judge penalized the
rider.
My question is: what, if anything, should have been done ?
If the judge does not object to this, should it go unchecked?
Should a bystander call this to the attention of the TD?

[Liz]

I was watching a video yesterday of a performance from the Spanish Riding School. There were a few horses that went *gasp* the whole time with their chin to their chest.

Get over yourself. There are people out there who think that just riding a horse is "abuse"

These posts get old. If you don't like it.....don't watch.

[BaroquePony]

Well, I guess that's settled :lol:

[ise@ssl]

You know Liz - alot of us are not "GETTING OVER IT". If you take a good hard look at the anatomy of the horse you would have to agree that riding a horse with it's nose to it's chest is abusive. I don't care WHO is doing it - doesn't change that fact. Get a copy of the video "If Horses Could Speak" and it will show how wrong this style of riding really is for our equine partners well being. As a breeder I even have it in my marketing materials that we won't sell to people who use this method and ASK potential buyers.

If I had been at the show I would have spoken to the Steward, TD, Show Manager or all 3.

[LegoMyMego]

These posts get old. If you don't like it.....don't watch.


Amen.

I'm so sick of rollkur posts. The Mods should just make a sticky about rollkur and let people hash it out there.

[Liz]

"Yawn"

[slc2]

You noticed a horse at a show with its chin in its chest? A dressage show? Recognized or schooling show?

On its chest? 2 inches from its chest? Or just not in a position you really liked? Anyone else here see it? How extreme was the horse's position?

Are you sure you aren't exagerating, even the tiniest little bit? Because in 40 years at all kinds of dressage shows, little ones, big ones, in many parts of the USA, I have never seen a horse with his chin ON his chest the entire warmup and test.

And yes, most judges penalize such a position.

Usually, when you get on this board and complain about how a horse was being ridden at a horse show, you can bet that some kind soul will 'want to help', and will make sure the rider, owner, trainer, breeder, and all concerned are informed of your comments and come on this board very upset and defensive...so you might want to gird your loins.

Well, maybe the horse was nervous, and/or an inexperienced rider was on the horse, and couldn't tell what was happening, or could, yet couldn't fix it. Some horses 'ball up' when they get at a show, and because they are tense, don't make proper contact with the bit.

Some horses seem to get very strong and pull rather forcefully at the reins, others get very tight, behind the bit and tense, as if they don't want to even touch the bit.

Some horses do BOTH, lol, and go back and forth.

If people are frightened and tense, they tend to make their horses tense too, and then they hold tensely onto the reins and are afraid to lengthen their reins.

Too, it's possible that the horse was extremely distracted and excited, and that the people training/riding felt that the only way to proceed given that the horse was quite fresh or strong.

The TD is there to deal with abuse, such as a rider galloping for hours, putting blood on a horse, using equipment that is illegal in the warmup or class, or using the whip excessively.

He is unlikely to intervene if the horse is being ridden hyperflexed, but does not seem to be oversweating or freaking out.

Many horses are quite accustomed to a very extreme position and while you may not like it or approve of it, if they aren't stressed, oversweating and having a melt down, there is no authority to tell them to train a different way.

I am not suggesting I am in favor of putting a horse's nose on his chest, so don't waste your time accusing me of that.

But there are tons of things that go on that we don't approve of, that the show organization does NOT have a charter to interfere with.

[BaroqueLady]

Thank you, slc, you have answered my question. I was not clear on the
function of the TD in such a case.
It was a recognized show, and it was not, I believe, as some have suggested
'rollkur'. It was a horse being ridden very tightly behind the vertical. It was
the most extreme position I had ever seen in a test. As you have pointed out, there are many explanations for this. It is
not how I would choose to ride a horse. It was an FEI level class but I do
not know how experienced the rider or horse was at the level.
My vantage point was from the grandstand so I cannot say that absolutely
the horse never had a break from this posture, but it did not appear to.
At any rate, I appreciate your response.
Now I know it is not any of my business and I should just dummy up.
So I will.

[slc2]

It is not that it is none of your business, or that you should dummy up; I think you're just getting your feathers ruffled cause I asked was that chin really ON the chest. Which you did not answer.

I am just saying, someone is going to be very upset and defensive about your comments, you specified the show, and just about anyone can now figure out who you were talking about. I am saying you should gird your loins, not that you should not complain if you see something that upsets you.

Why take something I write and pretend I said something I didn't even say - I said someone is going to be very upset about what you said, I didn't say you have no right to speak up.

When you don't like something, speak up, do something about it - at the time. The bb is a safe place to act outraged where you know you will find lots of support because behind the vertical/rollkur is such a hot button for so many people. Put your beliefs into action, take risks, speak up. No, you aren't going to get everyone praising you if you do - but that is life. [/I]

[cu.at.x]

If you are tired of reading about it, don't open the threads! There's something called *free speech* and this is definitely a topic that warrants discussion (as in why doesn't the FEI enforce their own rules?)

side note: ise@ssl, if/when I am in the market to buy a youngster, I will look into your breeding program first!

[vestito]

Crap I was really hoping this was news about the auction

[cu.at.x]

slc2--

What does it matter if the horse's nose was on its chest or 2 inches in front? Aren't both equally abusive? It's not like we're talking a touch BTV vs. on the chest.

It can take a long time to break a horse down. Most horses are very tolerant by nature and put up with abuse and domination until they reach a breaking point. Just because s/he isn't "freaking out" doesn't mean damage isn't being done.

I find it disturbing that you think a horse has to be bleeding for something to be considered abuse. Even from a physical standpoint, a great deal of damage can be done to the back (ala rollkur) without shedding a single drop of blood. Let alone the mental effects to the horse.

The FEI needs to define the term "hyperflexion" and decide when exactly it constitutes abuse. As far as I understand, they make no distinction between a brief *moment* of BTV, which happens to the most classical of trainers, and the most extreme rollkur. It seems that lack of definition is why this "method" is being tolerated.

[slc2]

What does it matter if the horse's nose was on its chest or 2 inches in front? Aren't both equally abusive? It's not like we're talking a touch BTV vs. on the chest.

-- First of all, no official is going to stop a rider when a horse is slightly behind the vertical, even when (and if!) a rule IS passed. No one is going to stop a warmup or excuse a horse that is 1-2 degrees behind the vertical with a normal neck shape and posture. That will NEVER happen. What MAY happen is that at some point in the future, there MIGHT be a rule that says the horse can not be placed in an extreme posture, and that extreme may be defined....somehow....I don't know how they can do that (how it would be defined or worded), but maybe they will find a way.

--If they do, I have no idea what real effect it would have in getting rid of rollkur. People can do it whenever they aren't at a horse show....so during one warmup out of 20 or 30, they won't be doing rollkur. So....not sure what good that does....

-- Furtthermore, how do you know what was going on? You weren't there. I asked because people constantly come here and TRASH people they don't like, just to start a personal feud here, and quite often these 'complaints' turn out to be nothing more than personal vendettas. Someone else comes on and says, 'I was there, and it was NOTHING like that'.

--It is perfectly alright to ask for specifics in any case, plus it's fine to challenge complaints precisely because so many are bull. Some are not, and they respond to challenges without the 'take my dollies and go home' reaction.

It can take a long time to break a horse down. Most horses are very tolerant by nature and put up with abuse and domination until they reach a breaking point. Just because s/he isn't "freaking out" doesn't mean damage isn't being done.

--When in the name of all that is actually written, versus what is read in to what is written in order to accomplish whatever, did i EVER say that? I am talking about what the TD can step in on based on the rules that restrict the TD's actions, NOT what I believe in!

I find it disturbing that you think a horse has to be bleeding for something to be considered abuse.

--I find it far more disturbing that you tell me what I 'believe' and what I 'think' when I never said anything even REMOTELY like that, and furthermore, don't even actually BELIEVE that.

--I said something VERY specific and that is ALL I SAID, why you are making such incredible assumptions is beyond me. I said what I believe the TD can do based on my knowledge of the rules and experiences at shows, this has NOTHING to do with what I 'consider abuse'. What I see TD's stopping at shows has absolutely NOTHING to do with what my 'standards' are for 'what is abuse'.

Even from a physical standpoint, a great deal of damage can be done to the back (ala rollkur) without shedding a single drop of blood. Let alone the mental effects to the horse.

The FEI needs to define the term "hyperflexion" and decide when exactly it constitutes abuse.

--THEY HAVE NOT. That SEVERELY limits what any official can do. Without a specific charter to do so, a TD has no legal basis for stopping what remains a 'training method', and the TD will be up to his neck in lawsuits (and the organization will NOT come to his aid) UNLESS he has a specific charter to respond that way. Until the organizations make a specific rule about it classifying it as abuse a specific rule that competitors agree to when they agree to enter a competition, when they sign on the dotted line and send in their check(which sorta sounds like a legal contract), the TD can do NOTHING.

[Nojacketrequired]

so you might want to gird your loins.

SLC, could you please tape an instructional video of how to accomplish this and post it on You Tube? I've often wondered how one goes about "girding" one's loins.


NJR

[Ambrey]

SLC, could you please tape an instructional video of how to accomplish this and post it on You Tube? I've often wondered how one goes about "girding" one's loins.


NJR

Unfortunately, the most effective method requires 4" steel I-beams and a scalpel. It was banned by you-tube as being too graphic.

:lol:

[slc2]

Uh...no.

Gird your loins is an expression dating from when before a fight, folks would wrap their attractive skirt like garment against their backside and tie it up above the knee in front to protect themselves during a fight, to protect their lower back and front and to be able to move more freely(gird meaning bind or wrap). It's hard to run around in a skirt. The rickshaw drivers still do in India, first thing they do when harsh words are spoken is wrap up their lungies. There is probably a video of THAT on youtube.

I think I read something else once, that it could have referred to a 'girt' (belt) that held weapons or protected the lower back from injury. In the Bible (somewhere) it says 'girt yourself with the truth'.

It has come to mean get ready for a fight, and later a verbal ah...interchange.

[Nojacketrequired]

Yes, I know what it means, but seeing something done is so much easier for me than just reading about it!

Come on, be a sport!

NJR

[slc2]

OK. Here's the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbOv3fbnGK8

[Nojacketrequired]

Well, I've heard of RAIL birds before.....

:lol:

NJR

[slc2]

It's the perfect metaphor for this bb.

This one is better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEvucNwhbhQ&feature=related