What's more important?

[Ames]

How you Look on a horse, or how you Feel on a horse?

If you feel like everything has fallen into place (right personality, comfy movement for you,you're confident on this particular horse) does that trump how you look on said horse (whether you look too big or too small on them).

Just curious what the general thoughts are on this

[slc2]

In dressage there isn't any such thing as looking too small or too big for the horse-it's not judged like how other riding divisions are judged. That 'picture' isn't important.

Lendon Gray is a tall rider and very successfully competed on a just-over-pony size FEI horse called Seldom Seen.

What is important is how the work is done. The horse's gaits, their freedom and regularity, the accuracy of the figures (round circles, etc), the horse's obedience/promptness, etc.

"How you feel" isn't always the best measure. People get a lot of bad habits that they don't realize they have; feeling 'comfortable' doesn't always equate to correct.

[TheHorseProblem]

The Lippizaners at the Spanish Riding School are all around 15 hands, which never bothered Podhajsky. Check out all the Spanish horses at the Olympics--they are also rather smallish compared to, say, Satchmo.

I ride a 16.2 TB who feels way too small for me because he has a delicate build. Then recently, I tried out a 15.2 QH who felt great and really took up my leg (I'm 5'9"). But the TB is way better trained and very rewarding to ride. So it depends I guess on what you mean by feel--do you mean size or rideability?

[Petstorejunkie]

you can't ride a picture ;)

[Ames]

I guess I'm getting at more along the lines of being too large or too small for your horse - everything else aside - they feel great to you as far as mental fit and physical fit (gaits, height/weight etc), but when you see a picture of yourself on the horse you realize you are either too big for teh horse or too small for the horse etc.

[ToN Farm]

What's more important to whom?

For me, it's a moot point because I wouldn't feel comfortable on a horse that was either too big or too small for me.

I like to see riders mounted on horses the appropriate size for them. If the horse is too big for the rider, that doesn't bother me much, but I really dislike seeing a big rider on a little horse.

[Cindyg]

Feel. For me, no question.

[Fantastic]

I feel at home on the 17.2 Snortalupagus, and the 10 hand Hot Rod pony! I'm 5'1-2" (depending on the day), I know I look a little funny on either one. :lol: But they both give me a good "feel". It's some of the tweeners that are on the narrow side and the choppy pony movement with no suspension that I feel like there is no horse between my legs - like no one is home. My favorite horses that really feel like a glove are 16.3, 15.1, and 16.2. To me it just depends on how they are sprung, suspension (I like a lot of air time), and that they are able to walk, trot, and canter with a purpose (like they are going somewhere).

[Sabine]

when you go to the Olympics- it matters how you look- if you are just a fun-riding dressage junkie (add to that category- backyard rider, wanna-be dressage amateur, real amateur and anyone else...) then it really only matter how it feels- and if it feels good- by Golly...go for it!
Now - if you want to show and compete...that's a whole different story! :(

[quietann]

Sabine, I agree, there is a distinction between the "hobbyists" and the serious competitors. (I fall somewhere in between.) I do think that a tiny 5'1" woman usually looks silly on a huge WB, and the vice versa.

It really is about comfort, but people compliment me on how well-matched I (5'1", 140 lbs., short legs) am to my horse (15 hands, 850 pounds, fairly lightly built). I could not get my leg around the big guys! BUT my trainer's assistant, who is over 6 feet tall, long-legged, and something like 135 pounds, does a great job with my little tiny horse... don't ask me how!

[Ambrey]

when you go to the Olympics- it matters how you look

But who was the rider who is about 4'11 on a HUGE horse? She certainly didn't look like she was suffering for the imbalance.

[slc2]

There is no issue of horse and rider size at the Olympics, actually. The judges do not care, and they would get laughed out of the FEI if they EVER went off and made up their own little judging criteria like horsey and rider size do not match. If it is not in the judging criteria, woe be to those to try to MAKE it part of the judging criteria.

There is a very small minimum height requirement for FEI horses, so that means that the very smallest horses or ponies (148 cm and under with shoes? can't recall) aren't competing at that level anyway.

At the top level there have been quite tall, leggy riders on smaller slimmer horses, and very small riders on big ones - such as Jeanette Haazen (sp) on her horse, who while not the biggest horse, looks more so because of the rider's size. Nadine is a narrow, very petite horse whose rider's legs hang down on, it hasn't bothered them in the scoring either. Little skinny exhuberant Nadine can move mountains.

Since some of the riders, like Capellman and Haazen are so small, one has to keep in mind that we don't really get a good picture of the horse's sizes quite often. When even the smallest horse is puffed up and moving well, they all look rather big. When a tall leggy man gets on a big horse, the horse simply doesn't look that big.

It just doesn't matter, at the Olympics or anywhere else at any level. It is a matter of personal taste and opinion, not of judging.

The only exception is when the rider is unable to control the horse, such as the case where a small unfit, untrained rider has trouble with a big strong horse, or when, for example, the rider weighs 2-3 times what the average person does and a very small horse or pony is struggling with it, and only if it materially affects the performance of the test.

the dressage judge cannot simply penalize for mismatched sizes, even as a 'general impression' or 'you know, it makes a difference' or 'they don't even realize it, but they are marking off for it, subconsciously' (LOL), he can only penalize for the effect it has and only if it does have an effect, such as 'horse disobedient to half halts' or 'horse unsteady on the bit' or 'lacking balance and impulsion'.

Most of the taller FEI riders are so slim that they can ride a wide variety of horse sizes without stressing them, and most of the smaller riders are so strong and fit they can ride anything of any size.eeeeeee

[Capriole]

I do notice very disparate horse-rider sizes. Debbie McDonald and Brentina, Hans Peter Minderhound and Nadine, etc. But the end work is much more important than the overall look, and both of those pairs perform(ed) pretty darn well. :lol:

At the top level there have been quite tall, leggy riders on smaller slimmer horses, and very small riders on big ones - such as Jeanette Haazen (sp) on her horse, who while not the biggest horse, looks more so because of the rider's size.
Nartan is 18h, pretty big to me!

[Rusty Stirrup]

When the work is correct the fit is perfect.

[bevs_stuff]

I have a couple of thoughts on this and I think it really depends on how much to big for the horse you might be. For example, I ride a 14.1 HH connemara and am 5' tall. We fit perfectly in size, but if my friend who is a very talented rider rode her she would look silly as she is 5'11". As for too big, I have ridden horses up to about 17HH, but they are a lot of work with my short legs, however my favorite horse to ride was 16.3h. I think size does matter but only at the extreme ends of the range, what is most important is how you feel on the horse and if you can ride it correctly.
If you are asking this regarding your own horse, and you only have one horse, then you need to buy what you feel comfortable with. The pros riders ride what they are paid to ride, they might prefer slightly bigger or smaller but in the end if they can do the job, they do!

[ToN Farm]

There is no issue of horse and rider size at the Olympics, actually. The judges do not care You really don't know if they 'care' or not. Just because something isn't in the rules, doesn't mean that it isn't a consideration by the judges, albeit maybe an unconscious consideration. I think a rider too big for the horse, is definitely a handicap in competition, even at the lowest levels. I also think that the comments you get here are going to say it doesn't matter because there are many people on this board and the other one that are too big for their horses, so naturally they think it is acceptable.

[Liz]

I think to compete the overall picture matters.

I think if you are just riding at home having fun...got for it.

Just my opinion.

[TropicalStorm]

For me, it was how I felt, and I actually ended up selling my baby. I am really used to larger horses; they have all been 17hh+, and I'm comfortable on that. I'm 5'8, and definitely not delicate ;) so I always got it in my mind that I would need a larger horse.

My baby though at 4, ended up only at 15.2hh and quite narrow. Looking at the pictures, we didn't LOOK bad, but I just felt really uncomfortable on him, especially after riding my large 17.2hh Trakehner. People told me we looked ok together, but I felt ridiculous on him. It was my own hang up, and one that made me sell him. But despite missing him, I know that I never would have been really comfortable on him

[pintopiaffe]

I am a *big* 5'4" and my stallion is a small 14.3.

I have had one instructor tell me, kindly that it is a more difficult ride because every movement of mine has such a bigger impact because not only is the horse short, he's super-short-coupled, and stupid-wide to boot. So it's more about balance than me being too heavy for him. My instructor weighs about the same as I do now, but is male, and while very similar in height, his stirrups in my saddle are about 4 holes down. He looks FABULOUS on my little horse, and makes my little horse LOOK fabulous.

I 'looked' better in photos on my 16h mare. I felt HUGE on her, and was shopping for draft stallions to put her to, thinking I needed a draft cross. My stallion was not intentionally misrepresented, but I was told he was 15.1 and should make 15.2 or I never would have had him sent across the country... funny, it turns out he's the most talented and kindest horse I ever could have HOPED to move up the levels on. Things work out.

Even at my heaviest, I never had a judge comment on a mismatch. I often got the 'lovely pair' and 'tactfully ridden' comments; And no, I don't believe they were throwing the dog a bone, under the circumstances, I felt they were lovely comments.

With the new influx of GRPs gaining ground, I think it will soon seem far more acceptable for GRP sized/moving little big horses to be in the dressage ring alongside all the others. Of course, they don't have to be *G*RPs, and I love the American Riding Pony group and idea. But you get my meaning... when an imported trend becomes popular, suddenly it's fashionable to have something that looks like it *could be*... :winkgrin:

[woodcat]

Well, what do they mean when they say 'attractive pair' or lovely pair'?
I like riding a horse appropriate to my size. I feel more like a partner. But there is something to be said for managing (that's the best I can do) a huge guy...a special feeling of accomplishment.

[Ambrey]

You really don't know if they 'care' or not. Just because something isn't in the rules, doesn't mean that it isn't a consideration by the judges, albeit maybe an unconscious consideration.

Well, let's get back to the fact that these are people who MADE it to the olympics in the first place. If size was such a huge issue, the tiny rider/huge horse and large rider/small horse combos would not have made it that far.

[slc2]

"maybe an unconscious consideration"

We here seem to believe judges are vulnerable to literally dozens of 'unconscious considerations'.

If they were, they'd be like cats chasing their tails all the time, and they aren't.

[sm]

How you Look on a horse, or how you Feel on a horse?

If you feel like everything has fallen into place (right personality, comfy movement for you, you're confident on this particular horse) does that trump how you look on said horse (whether you look too big or too small on them).



Neither. What matters is how good a team you both are. And just pointing out here, there's no "I" in TEAM.

[Ames]

specifically, I am not referring to professionals - amateurs who ride for fun but have some modest showing goals as well :)

[slc2]

Then you run what you brung, dear.

And what you can afford, and what falls in your lap, and what doesn't kill you.

[Bellfleur]

I for one think that if someone small feels comfortable on a bigger horse and they have no trouble riding one go for it.

I do however think some bigger people should be careful about riding a smaller horse. I have a super fancy 15.2 1/2 hand mare and refined modern type not the old style tank type. I do not want her being ridden by someone that weighs too much (either too tall or too heavy). I think she does not like carrying big people.

I personally like horses to fit the rider to some extent.

I did see a top taller slender professional get blasted a bit (just not as good scores) because she was way too tall for the horse. I know she was not too much weigh either but they did seem to knock her for the horse being so small.

[Horsepower]

How I feel is most important. If I don't feel comfortable, I can't ride well or get good results from the horse. My best results thus far (show-wise) have been on a huge barreled 16.1 hand horse (my leg only came half way down her side) and a big barreled 14 hand pony. If I feel comfortable and get the response I want, that is what I like. I hated the 15.3 hand narrowly built horse I once rode. Apparently, I feel comfortable with a bigger barreled horse. Even though I feel I looked "silly" on the 16.1 horse, I got my highest scores on her.

[blackhorse6]

Took my 16-3 hand boy to his first recognized show this weekend.. Thought he would be one of the bigger horses...WRONG.. His size was "average".. Looking through the show program, many of the horses being shown were taller than he was and not to many much smaller. Back to the topic. I agree that as long as the horse and rider make a good "team", that is what matters most.. Personally I like a horse with a wider barrel and wide back. It is like riding a big old sofa:D

[meupatdoes]

I think there is a difference between "looking ridiculous" and being "too big for" the horse. I am 6' tall and one of mine is a 15.2 QH.

Do I look silly on him?
Sure.

Do I weigh too much for him?
At 155 pounds, I don't think so.

He is lovely to ride and makes a wonderful effort each ride, and I am grateful for who he is and what he brings to each ride regardless of what size package he comes in.

If people would have me stop riding this horse, who is not being overstressed in any way, simply because they "like" a certain look, then they would have me miss out on a lovely partner for a totally superficial reason.

(Personally, I think a lot of amateurs are overmounted and stuck at first level because of exactly this bias, but that's for another thread.)

[bort84]

I think some judges might give an advantage to a well matched pair or to a larger horse compared to a smaller one. It would be very unintentional and probably only a slight difference in scores. But if two horses, one 14.2 and one 16.3 (same breed and color), both with let's say, 5'2" riders, performed the exact same test in the exact same way, I'd guess you'd often see a slightly higher score for the bigger horse. And I think that's probably also true for mismatches with a tall rider on a small horse compared to a small rider on a big horse.

Again, it's very slight, and it's obviously most important how you feel on a horse, but size does add something to the picture. In a perfect world, you'd feel great and be perfectly matched in size, haha. I think Robert Dover mentioned this situation when the 4'11" rider came into the ring at the World Cup this year. He said a small rider on a big horse can sometimes add to the overall impression of power.

I think judges at that level are good enough to mostly ignore it, but part of dressage is about the whole presentation, so a less well matched pair on the smaller side may have to present a slightly superior performance. Again, I think it's generally a very minor factor.

I am 5'8" and am currently working with a 15 hand horse (an appy, no less). I would love it if he were 16.2 (though I probably wouldn't have him if he were), but he's got a wide barrel and takes up my leg, so he actually looks bigger with a rider on him.

[pintopiaffe]

Bort, I get where you're going, but if you've ever seen a *correct*, well moving little horse...

They can *explode* the extensions, and can look so much easier making a line of tempis look like playing... there is simply more room in the arena--gives room to easily ride the test. ;)

Not arguing per se, just have seen it.

In the end, yes, two tests of similar correctness, the better MOVER will win. Unless the size difference in horse/rider is REALLY excessive, it will have little to do with rider size, and more to do with rider ability.

[SDK.*]

I talked to my coach about this the other day after getting some grief about being to small on my horse. I have a big WB gelding whose is very solid and i'm 5'0 and petite. I figure its what ever works for you I know someone with a longer leg would probaly look better and have an easier time but I can still do anything with my horse IMO maybe it takes a little more effort but as long as i'm not physically restricting him or causing him pain then I don't see why it matters!

[Ames]

I tried a horse the other day who I absolutely loved - had all the qualities I was looking for as far as sane, sound and somewhat trustworthy :) I felt comfortable on him, and even rode him w/t/c in a pasture - which for me, a nervous nellie, is a big deal on a strange horse. I actually wanted to jump this horse - says a lot!

In looking at the pictures and video I feel like if my stirrups were at the correct length (too short while riding) my leg would end where his barrel ends, and because I'm still losing baby weight, I think I look too fat on him (but that is relative - horse had no problems with me getting on him, or riding him or anything - he's quite on teh lazy side which is fine by me :) ). The fat part will change as the weight continues to come off, but if antyhing, that will make me look even longer on him.

Decisions...

[bort84]

Bort, I get where you're going, but if you've ever seen a *correct*, well moving little horse...

They can *explode* the extensions, and can look so much easier making a line of tempis look like playing... there is simply more room in the arena--gives room to easily ride the test. ;)

Not arguing per se, just have seen it.

In the end, yes, two tests of similar correctness, the better MOVER will win. Unless the size difference in horse/rider is REALLY excessive, it will have little to do with rider size, and more to do with rider ability.

I absolutely agree that the better mover will win = ) I meant if the two horses were identical in all aspects (including movement), the larger horse would probably have a slight advantage. Though a little horse with a cute tiny rider on top can also be a hard picture to beat.

I also know what you mean about an "explosive" looking small horse. The little guy I have right now is in some ways more impressive because he's small. He's a great mover, and it's totally unexpected because of his size and coloring. He thinks he's big, haha. Also, on many smallish horses (not all) they can be a bit easier to "package" though I know that comment will cause owners of big horses to disagree (I think this argument came up on a previous thread). I know a lot of sensitive large horses too and some small horses that are practically dead, but in general, I feel a 16 hand horse is often easier to put together than a 17.3 hander. Proper training obviously minimizes the difference, but when starting them out, I have noticed some differences = )

[TheHorseProblem]

I was just reading the eurodressage article about Anky parting ways with IPS who own Painted Black, and noticed that she looks really big on him. I also felt at World Cup that he didn't have the presence that Salinero has, probably because he's just smaller.

[Arizona DQ]

I tried a horse the other day who I absolutely loved - had all the qualities I was looking for as far as sane, sound and somewhat trustworthy :) I felt comfortable on him, and even rode him w/t/c in a pasture - which for me, a nervous nellie, is a big deal on a strange horse. I actually wanted to jump this horse - says a lot!

In looking at the pictures and video I feel like if my stirrups were at the correct length (too short while riding) my leg would end where his barrel ends, and because I'm still losing baby weight, I think I look too fat on him (but that is relative - horse had no problems with me getting on him, or riding him or anything - he's quite on teh lazy side which is fine by me :) ). The fat part will change as the weight continues to come off, but if antyhing, that will make me look even longer on him.

Decisions...

If you feel confident on him and he suits your temperament and is not a 11 hand pony, why is there a decision to make!!! Run out and get him!!!!!:eek:

[Ames]

thanks :) I'm going back to try him again with longer stirrups to make sure I still "feel" okay on him. It's not so easy being a taller (and bigger) rider - you can't change your height when horse shopping!