Dressage at Lexington--how did the DSHB go??

[talloaks]

Anyone go??? Anyone have any reports??

[onceandfuture]

http://www.equestriansecretarialservices.com/ShowResults.php?id=56502009

[chaotic mind]

To give you something a bit more. The Judges seemed to prefer a more refined type of horse. A 2009 did make it to the final championships. A mature mare did win over all grand champion.

There was however an unfortunate incident immediately after that finals that resulted in the owner of the winner being medevaced to the trauma center at Roanoke.

I know nothing as to her current status and hope she is alright.

If anyone has any information on how she is doing it would be appreciated. She appeared to be a very kind person.

[YankeeLawyer]

There was however an unfortunate incident immediately after that finals that resulted in the owner of the winner being medevaced to the trauma center at Roanoke.

I know nothing as to her current status and hope she is alright.

If anyone has any information on how she is doing it would be appreciated. She appeared to be a very kind person.

I hope she is okay!

[Windswept Stable]

First time for one of Power's get to compete in dressage & his son
Empire's Peter Pan was 2nd in his 2 yr old colt class -- he was only
3 tenths behind the winner. Not bad for a pony against big horses.
I was so excited that his handler - Paul Maye took him to the dressage competition. Same colt was just Grand Sport Pony Champion at New York last week and qualified for the Royal Fair. Same colt was also 3rd on the line at Devon in the pony hunter breeding ring. I am quite pleased he is having success in different disciplines.

[talloaks]

To give you something a bit more. The Judges seemed to prefer a more refined type of horse. A 2009 did make it to the final championships. A mature mare did win over all grand champion.

There was however an unfortunate incident immediately after that finals that resulted in the owner of the winner being medevaced to the trauma center at Roanoke.

I know nothing as to her current status and hope she is alright.

If anyone has any information on how she is doing it would be appreciated. She appeared to be a very kind person.


This sounds just terrible!! Was the winning mare Wolkenkarat? and the owner Sophia Clifton of NC? I sure hope she is okay!!
Do you know what happened??

[Schiffon]

This sounds just terrible!! Was the winning mare Wolkenkarat? and the owner Sophia Clifton of NC? I sure hope she is okay!!
Do you know what happened??

Yes, and I think so, at least some people were calling the injured person Sophie. I was still in the coliseum after watching the naming of the champion when people came running in from the warm-up saying someone had been kicked.


We were so excited that our foal Velluto by my stallion Schiffon out of Pr. St. Viva Vanessa won the 2009 colt class, but seeing something like that really put a damper on feelings we had leaving the show...

[talloaks]

Congratulations to all the winners at the DSHB show and sorry to have such an accident dampen spirits!!

[retrofit]

The results don't say anything about the breeding of the horse. Is this typical for a breed show?

Hope the injured woman is OK.

[avezan]

I am here at the show and have not heard any updates on the injured woman. I thought I might get some news here on COTH. It sounded very bad.

[Schiffon]

The results don't say anything about the breeding of the horse. Is this typical for a breed show?

Hope the injured woman is OK.

The breed show program had the sire and dam's names listed with most entries in each class (which was really nice because sometimes you have to refer to the master list at the back of the program). Wolkenkarat for some reason was not listed in the class section but was in the master. She is by Wolkenzauber who according to allbreedpedigree.com is an AWB by Winnetou (Han) out of an APhA mare. Funny how an AWB has a German name. The dam is a Hanoverian (Hohenstein-De Niro).

Someone needs to talk to the company that developed/sells the dressage show software so there is room for a breeder to be listed in the program! Or at least make it so the user can change the heading of "Rider" to "Breeder" since no one cares who is handling and it isn't right half of the time anyway.

[Gindarkh]

I am here at the show and have not heard any updates on the injured woman. I thought I might get some news here on COTH. It sounded very bad.

My vet was present and said as she understood it, the woman was kicked in the face, but it was very difficult to see as there was quite a crowd gathered around. She said she was afraid it was very bad, because it was so loud when it happened, she thought a horse had broken it's leg...:(

Jingles for whoever it was...

[eggbutt]

This is so sad....any news yet? Bruce ran the mare and Sophie rode her in the materiale class as I understand it. I heard that the mare was a handful on the triangle, rearing and then kicking out.

[chaotic mind]

This is so sad....any news yet? Bruce ran the mare and Sophie rode her in the materiale class as I understand it. I heard that the mare was a handful on the triangle, rearing and then kicking out.

Bruce was also handling a stallion in the Championship classes so Sophie was in the ring with the mare in those. She acted up in the best mature horse class while waiting for her go to trot around the ring.

[YankeeLawyer]

My vet was present and said as she understood it, the woman was kicked in the face, but it was very difficult to see as there was quite a crowd gathered around. She said she was afraid it was very bad, because it was so loud when it happened, she thought a horse had broken it's leg...:(

Jingles for whoever it was...

Oh my God. I really hope this woman is okay.

Here is some info on Wolkenzauber and photos of Wolkenkarat:
http://www.cocolallacreeksporthorses.com/sport_horses_wolkenzauber.html

[avezan]

This is very unofficial, but I just asked a show official how she was doing. The response was that she is raising hell in the ICU to be let out. whew. it sounds like she has a long road to recovery, but she is ok. I would still love someone to post a more official report.

[chaotic mind]

This is very unofficial, but I just asked a show official how she was doing. The response was that she is raising hell in the ICU to be let out. whew. it sounds like she has a long road to recovery, but she is ok. I would still love someone to post a more official report.

Thanks for the update. Let us know if you hear anything more.

[retrofit]

Someone needs to talk to the company that developed/sells the dressage show software so there is room for a breeder to be listed in the program! Or at least make it so the user can change the heading of "Rider" to "Breeder" since no one cares who is handling and it isn't right half of the time anyway.

Hmm ... sounds like they need some competition in the market. ;)

[Moonarai]

I sure hope the woman was okay. I was there when it happened. All I know is that the mare freaked out and kicked her and I heard a huge crack. I went to check it out and the woman was on the floor bleeding from a huge crack in her head, and her right eye was pretty messed up also. She put up a big fight, she's a strong woman and I'm sure she'll pull through!

[okggo]

Bruce was also handling a stallion in the Championship classes so Sophie was in the ring with the mare in those. She acted up in the best mature horse class while waiting for her go to trot around the ring.

First of all my prayers are with the woman who was kicked, I really hope she is okay and they are able to fix her up 100%!! That is so sad!!

Second, and I dont' want this to sound controversial, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding you all - but did I understand it right that the mare that was acting up waiting and on the triangle (rearing, kicking out) and then kicked the poor woman in the face WON her class? Do they not judge temperment AT ALL? I don't care how perfect a horse is, if it is acting a fool it shouldn't win - no? If a jumper stops at a fence they don't win the class b/c they are the best looking. I've seen this type of thing before and I guess having a good mind and aptitude for being ridden don't matter?

[NoDQhere]

First of all my prayers are with the woman who was kicked, I really hope she is okay and they are able to fix her up 100%!! That is so sad!!

Second, and I dont' want this to sound controversial, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding you all - but did I understand it right that the mare that was acting up waiting and on the triangle (rearing, kicking out) and then kicked the poor woman in the face WON her class? Do they not judge temperment AT ALL? I don't care how perfect a horse is, if it is acting a fool it shouldn't win - no? If a jumper stops at a fence they don't win the class b/c they are the best looking. I've seen this type of thing before and I guess having a good mind and aptitude for being ridden don't matter?

Wishing Sophie a full recovery of course but, I have to agree with you here. I think that if "temperament" were made part of the score, we would see much better manners on horses at these shows.

[YankeeLawyer]

Wishing Sophie a full recovery of course but, I have to agree with you here. I think that if "temperament" were made part of the score, we would see much better manners on horses at these shows.

How about not allowing people to chase their horses with whips in the ring, too.

[avezan]

Second, and I dont' want this to sound controversial, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding you all - but did I understand it right that the mare that was acting up waiting and on the triangle (rearing, kicking out) and then kicked the poor woman in the face WON her class? Do they not judge temperment AT ALL? I don't care how perfect a horse is, if it is acting a fool it shouldn't win - no? If a jumper stops at a fence they don't win the class b/c they are the best looking. I've seen this type of thing before and I guess having a good mind and aptitude for being ridden don't matter?

No. This happened in the warm up area after the mare had been named champion. I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I just wanted to clear this up asap) that the owner was holding the mare while the handler was in the ring with the reserve champion. She was waiting to hand off the mare to the handler to take in the ring for the champion presentation. In fact, I think they were just moments away from the hand off when it happened. So unfortunate. My prayers are with the owner for a successful recovery.

I did not see the mare's behavior in the actual class.

[Edgewood]

How about not allowing people to chase their horses with whips in the ring, too.

Yes, some horses get really pumped up with the lunge whips, but it does get the big movement that they reward with DSHB, so probably won't be going away.

Thus, I do feel that most DSHB horses are very well tempered, but are "UP" because of the lunge whips. BIG difference, IMHO, than hunter breeding where they want the horse "down" and "calm" and in some cases, are lunging horses extensively prior to the classes to get their "beans" out. I have seen this in person, young yearlings being lunged for 10 or 15 minutes before the class....

[chaotic mind]

First of all my prayers are with the woman who was kicked, I really hope she is okay and they are able to fix her up 100%!! That is so sad!!

Second, and I dont' want this to sound controversial, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding you all - but did I understand it right that the mare that was acting up waiting and on the triangle (rearing, kicking out) and then kicked the poor woman in the face WON her class? Do they not judge temperment AT ALL? I don't care how perfect a horse is, if it is acting a fool it shouldn't win - no? If a jumper stops at a fence they don't win the class b/c they are the best looking. I've seen this type of thing before and I guess having a good mind and aptitude for being ridden don't matter?

The mare was acting up during a championship class. This is where they are waiting in a line as the horses one at a time are trotted around the arena. The coliseum at Lexington is itself a challenging environment. Very huge, lots of activity. Dogs in the seating areas and the mezzanine (despite the no dogs allowed signs). Unsupervised children running. Vendors setting up and taking down displays dragging racks across the concrete. And every single noise is amplified as it bounces off the concrete wall and high ceiling.

There is no way to train for that. Especially young horses. The coliseum was not open for acclimation purposes the night before, at least not when we were there.

Temperament is considered in the in hand judging. It is part of a an overall impression score that counts for 10% of the total score. Trot however which is supposed to be huge and energetic counts for 30% of the score.

I really hope Sophie recovers quickly and completely, it was a tragic accident.

[okggo]

Chaotic mind, I see how the scoring certainly could have a horse in a 'mood' win a class with a big trot - but still....was EVERY horse in there going bonkers? I swear someone said she was rearing and kicking out DURING the test, but again maybe that was misunderstood.

If you did a dressage test under saddle (pick a level) and the horse reared and kicked out, it would count against you...I suppose what you are saying is that in the SHB classes it does as well, but so minimally it may not make a difference in over all pinning.

Sorry, my intent was not to derail where this thread has gone, namely sending care and sympathy to the injured, but I was genuinely wondering how a horse behaving as was described could essentially be rewarded for being dangerous by winning the class.

[chaotic mind]

Chaotic mind, I see how the scoring certainly could have a horse in a 'mood' win a class with a big trot - but still....was EVERY horse in there going bonkers? I swear someone said she was rearing and kicking out DURING the test, but again maybe that was misunderstood.

If you did a dressage test under saddle (pick a level) and the horse reared and kicked out, it would count against you...I suppose what you are saying is that in the SHB classes it does as well, but so minimally it may not make a difference in over all pinning.

Sorry, my intent was not to derail where this thread has gone, namely sending care and sympathy to the injured, but I was genuinely wondering how a horse behaving as was described could essentially be rewarded for being dangerous by winning the class.

First actually this thread is about the DSHB at Lexington. There is now a jingles for Sophie thread so this is the appropriate place to discuss this.

No not every horse was going bonkers. But I would say at least half of them had some upset during their judging. Part of the reason for this is some horses did luck out and managed to be judged with very little outside or no disturbances, others were not so lucky. The judge at least once asked that another horse be brought into the ring when one of the horses being judged was upset at being in the ring by itself. The stewards at least once yelled at children to quit running.

I am not sure what you mean by test. This was an in hand class not a dressage test. The class were the horse acted up was a championship class which is run more like a hunter breeding class. The horses were lined up along the long side of the arena waiting their turn. The judge was judging movement at the time so she was watching the horse that was being moved. This meant her back was to the horses that were lined up. There is a good chance she didn't see the incident as it went on for only a few seconds and she should have been concentrating on the horse she was currently judging.

You are correct in that if you horse kicks out in a dressage test it counts against them but only in the movement in which they kicked out in and in one or two of the overall scores depending on the judge. If the rest of the movements are spectacular it won't affect the placing very much will it?

And if you horse acted up because someone's child was ran right next to the ring the judge may very well turn a blind eye to it.

Breeding classes are not obedience classes. Temperament at the very most can only count for 10% of the class, but in reality only counts for a fraction of that 10%. So even if the judge did see it it by the rules can only count in that one area. It has nothing to do with the quality of the walk, trot or confirmation which is the other 90%.

[eqeq]

I've stayed quiet through this thread as it's always horrible when such an accident occurs. However, I think I need to chime in now. I showed this mare in hand as well as started her under saddle and she never demonstrated anything other than what is considered normal young horse behavior. In fact, if anything, she was more level-headed than most to start and show. I don't feel it's fair to make a judgement on the mare's temperament and rideability based on one incident that, although absolutely horrendous, needs to be recognized as something that DOES happen with young horses in that sort of an environment. I've shown that mare to regional and national HOTY honors as well both in hand and under saddle and I'm pretty sure that she's near the top of the nation for the four year old division - in my mind, that's NOT something that could have been accomplished by a horse with poor character and trainability. She was always a favorite in the barn, packing around working students on the trail like a pro after 30 days. In fact, the video that Sophie viewed before she purchased her was the mare warming up in a ring with 20 other horses, quiet as could be.

Some pretty horrific injuries occur at DSHB shows - I know, I've been there and bled for that. We do the shows to prepare our youngsters for their show careers and it's done with the expectation that young horses will make mistakes during the process. It's awful when people or other horses are injured by those mistakes, especially this seriously, but surely it must be considered that the environment IS electric and therefore inherently risky.

Our thoughts are with Sophie for a speedy and full recovery.

[chaotic mind]

I've stayed quiet through this thread as it's always horrible when such an accident occurs. However, I think I need to chime in now. I showed this mare in hand as well as started her under saddle and she never demonstrated anything other than what is considered normal young horse behavior. In fact, if anything, she was more level-headed than most to start and show. I don't feel it's fair to make a judgement on the mare's temperament and rideability based on one incident that, although absolutely horrendous, needs to be recognized as something that DOES happen with young horses in that sort of an environment. I've shown that mare to regional and national HOTY honors as well both in hand and under saddle and I'm pretty sure that she's near the top of the nation for the four year old division - in my mind, that's NOT something that could have been accomplished by a horse with poor character and trainability. She was always a favorite in the barn, packing around working students on the trail like a pro after 30 days. In fact, the video that Sophie viewed before she purchased her was the mare warming up in a ring with 20 other horses, quiet as could be.

Some pretty horrific injuries occur at DSHB shows - I know, I've been there and bled for that. We do the shows to prepare our youngsters for their show careers and it's done with the expectation that young horses will make mistakes during the process. It's awful when people or other horses are injured by those mistakes, especially this seriously, but surely it must be considered that the environment IS electric and therefore inherently risky.

Our thoughts are with Sophie for a speedy and full recovery.

My point was basically this was a spooky arena. There were plenty of horses acting up in it. I am pretty sure the one upset I saw with the mare in the ring was due to children running in the stands.

I'll add now that Sophie's mare was by no means the worst behaved one there. She just had the worst consequences. There was one I remember that appeared to fairly consistantly prefer having only two legs on the ground instead of four. It also moved ahead to one of the championship classes.

Temperament really doesn't count for that much SHB classes. You can look at the score sheet and tell that. Whether it should count for more or not I think can be debated in both directions.

Hopefully someone will look at the whole situation and see if there is a way to make it safer for everyone.

[eqeq]

I understood your point completely - and agree completely :-). I'm certainly not taking away that the mare made a very bad decision. Just felt it was time to defend her honor :-). She is, generally speaking, quite good natured, but youngsters are youngsters and, in that sort of environment, can't always be as cool-headed as the old pros we value so much.

I think you're right in that temperament should be more clearly valued - for the future of our breeding programs. But again, that would be hard to judge. Having shown so many youngsters over the years and THEN starting them under saddle, some of those with ideal behavior in hand were either too lazy or just discovered their airs above ground later in life. Conversely, some of the hotter or more reactive ones were "just right" as soon as I stepped into the saddle.

Sophie and Kara have been out there giving everyone a run for their money in the four year old division and we were fortunate to be able to match this mare with such an extraordinary horsewoman. Our thoughts are with her.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Winning horses for DSHB are "up". The goal is for them to show their best. The winner will get that trot that it does when a deer jumps into its field and runs around - tail up, snorty, blowey. Horses in the field will often rear or buck during a "show off" period. That does not mean that any horse that bucks/kicks out when free in the field is crazy and dangerous. We don't go running out in the field when they are ripping around showing off to stand/run next to them, but that is exactly what handlers do at a DSHB show.

It is a FINE line to try to teach them to be that excited, "on cue" and stay within a framework of behavior to rear/buck just "next to" your body space, but not in it.

One of the nicest dressage horses I know had a super DSHB career, but she KNEW it was time, and WHO was handling her. She stayed relaxed in the walk, but as she approached the big trot corner, she would be doing little rear/bucks, to rev herself up. Then she would settle and hold a HUGE trot on the back line, ending in a big buck & kick out. This same mare won Jr Handler for her owner's daughter, and stayed calm.

There ARE horses that are bred to show more in hand. One year I was at Devon, watching a horse win Grand CHampion. A BNT was next to me, and I commented that the gaits were incredible, but I wouldn't want to ride that firecracker. He said the "horse was by XYZ. Those are in hand horses. You don't RIDE those horses". That was totally sad.

So there are both types. Horses that are bred to be very hot and easy to excite, and those that are TRAINED to be "up" on cue. Also, the more breed shows a horse does, the more "wired" they get, as they KNOW what is expected of them.

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

Jingles for Sophie. I hope she recovers quickly.

Is the pedigree info out there for the winners? That is what I'd like to see.

[equescool]

this was a spooky arena. >>>> AND someone rode into the waiting area on a bicycle which originally spooked the young mare, an unseasoned performer on sensory stimulation overload. I wonder if there is not a kinder way to exhibit these young horses and help acclimate them to perfomance - it seems that other venues are working on this aspect. And what kind of thinking rides a bicycle into a bunch of over stimulated horses? Jingles to Sophie AND the mare who BOTH had a bad day.

[talloaks]

this was a spooky arena. >>>> AND someone rode into the waiting area on a bicycle which originally spooked the young mare, an unseasoned performer on sensory stimulation overload. I wonder if there is not a kinder way to exhibit these young horses and help acclimate them to perfomance - it seems that other venues are working on this aspect. And what kind of thinking rides a bicycle into a bunch of over stimulated horses? Jingles to Sophie AND the mare who BOTH had a bad day.


WHAT??????????? Someone rode a bicycle into the holding area?????
UNBELIEVABLE!! They should be hung out to dry!! How stupid and inconsiderate!!:eek::no::no::no:

[talloaks]

Any comments on the above post by equescool???:eek:

[Tornado Run Farm]

Explains a lot, doesn't it?! I'm glad equescool posted. I've never shown in the Lexington venue so I'm trying to envision the layout you all are describing - sounds like an atmosphere akin to a keg of dynamite (kids running on metal bleachers, close quarters, stallions...) - the bike must've just been the match.

Hope it was a kid - hate to think an adult would do such a foolish thing! Although I was in KY when my 2yo got loose and we were trying to corner her - a gatekeeper thought she'd help "shoo" her my way and tapped her on the butt with a clipboard! Before you could blink my filly fired both barrels. Luckily she missed, but the lady snarked at me about my horse's "backend" issues. Jeez... :rolleyes:

[Leah A]

On a side note, did anyone see Adesco C go? He was in the Stallion class (1st), the Stallion Championship (1st), the Mature Horse Championship (2nd behind Wolkenkarat), and the Grand Championship (2nd behind Wolkenkarart). Does anyone have the pedigrees of the stallions in the Stallion Championship? Thank you!