Question about working "long"

[spottedponylover]

My horse had a lot of bad habits and evasions when I got him. My trainer has had us working long - having him stretch down for the bit. I get that. It's supposed to be good for him. But, I don't understand how trotting around with his head down, slightly behind the vertical, and usually leaning on the bit, is making him use his back end. I don't think he is. He doesn't feel like he is. The few times he's really used his hindquarters, he's really uphill and really soft - his head is not anywhere close to the ground, but it is in front of the vertical (I think).

I'm new to dressage, having ridden hunters most of my riding life. One of my old trainers taught me that to get the horse to use his hindquarters, you need to use your legs and squeeze them up into your hands, keeping the energy you generate from going forward, but more into up without losing the pace. The horse's neck should be more over the shoulder and the horse flexxed at the poll with his head vertical or slightly in front of the vertical.

So, is all the working long eventually going to help my horse carry himself from behind?

[didgery]

I'm no expert (far, far from it) but I can't imagine any dressage trainer wanting you to "work long" with the head BTV. I think down, out and forward would be a more appropriate posture. Some of the "aha" moments that I have had with green horses have come when there's a light contact, a very low and long frame, little collection but lots of impulsion, and the horse actively reaching out and down with his nose, lightly but consistently holding the bit, and stepping very actively with his hind end under him.

[cu.at.x]

What you are referring to--having the horse stretch down to the bit--is known as forward/down/out, and it works just like it sounds. The horse stretches into the contact with its head and neck, while maintaining the energy behind. His head should not go behind the vertical, but should be slightly in front of the vertical. Nowadays there is a trend known as riding "deep", where the horse is purposely put behind the vertical. I am sure there are justifications for this "method" or it wouldn't be so prevalent. But it is classically incorrect, as the FEI rules state numerous times that the horse should always "seek the contact" (how can he seek it if he is being held there by the rider's hands?)

I could go on about contact and so forth, but to keep this short and sweet.. Generally speaking, if the horse goes behind the vertical, it means the rider is using too much hand in relation to leg. For every once of pressure you have in your hands maintaining an elastic contact with his mouth, you should have at least that much in your leg (not consistently of course--the aim is to create a horse that is forward and "on the aids" and you do not want to use your leg as a crutch--but still he must be kept forward at all times.)

You are on the right track with your observations. Don't let anyone tell you that your horse is 'bad' or lacking submission because he leans on the bit. He's trying to tell you something. Either you are misunderstanding your trainer (and if so, why would she not say something?) or you need to find a new trainer! Hope this helps.

[egontoast]

But, I don't understand how trotting around with his head down, slightly behind the vertical, and usually leaning on the bit, is making him use his back end. I don't think he is. He doesn't feel like he is.

"slightly behind the vertical ' probably won't even cause too many ODG's to roll over in their graves. As you know already, the question is what is the hindend doing . You might get someone to video your ride for you so you can be sure of what you are feeling.

My horse had a lot of bad habits and evasions when I got him.

It may well be the trainer is correct in having your horse in a lower frame now to encourage a stronger connection and bridge back to front. "Leaning ' on the bit can be a stage in finding the balance in this connection and can be a good stage with some horses who would rather not go to the bit. Some horses go in a high frame very easily but the bridge is weak- withers are down. It can fool some people (not saying this about you, just sayin)

It's difficult for anyone here to know whether the trainer is doing a good job or not .

[slc2]

Stretching down with the nose poked forward prevents the stretching from benefitting the horse. Tightens muscles in the topline. The head too close to the front legs (neck too down or vertical) is also a problem and stretches incorrectly, as well as being too far behind the vertical ('curled up').

If the horse feels like he is pulling too hard on the reins, he can be suppled by bending to the left and right while stretching; if one can't do that, the horse isn't actually stretching correctly.

Too, stretching is an exercise that is done until the muscles are loose and supple, it is not how to ride all the time. This can be overdone just like anything else. The horse needs to be ridden in different positions, stretching, up, bending to each side, bending in the body, straight, shoulders in, shoulders straight, etc.

[FriesianX]

What may feel like too much contact for you may be part of what the horse needs. You don't tell us WHAT evasions your horse had, but if evading consistent contact with the bit was part of the problem, then sometimes you need a little too heavy before you can get back to light contact. AND if you were a hunter rider, you may be surprised at what light contact is for the dressage world - it may feel heavy to you!

And yes, riding long and round (which you may see as BTV), and forward can help a horse learn use its back - as SLC notes! In that position, the horse can not drop its back.

Get someone to video your ride, talk to your trainer about your concerns. If you are not comfortable with what the trainer has you do, then look for another trainer.

[Valentina_32926]

When he stretches down he should have an "arch" to his neck - this comes from his hind end engagement which gets him using his back (over the topline). The gaits should still be bouncy - if not then he's probably not using his back end as much as he should - use legs to get him forward then HH so the energy comes from behind over his back and is recycled thru your hands.

Hope that makes sense.

[Dressage_Julie]

I think the biggest problem with long/low is the horse can tend to fall on the forehand. I have a big mare, and need to be careful with the amount I let her down and out, because she starts to dis-engage and falls on the forehand. I do let her stretch over her back, but I change it up. Stretching down, pick her up. You are absolutely correct about pushing the hind to hand. I would ask your trainer why he/she is having you work so much on stretching down. A good reason to work the long and low is if the horse tends to suck back and get behind your leg. Good luck!

[Bogey2]

I have never been taught to ride a horse low and behind the verticle. I have ridden the occasional horse "out" to the bit with a loose rein, but never behind the verticle. Hess had a lot of riders do this at the NEDA clinic but never was the horse behind the verticle, he wanted the horse pushing to the bit and in the outside rein depending on the horses way of going. He used the following guidelines:
1. rider must sit in balance with independant ue of aids
2. horse and rider must be supple (no sitting unil horse was swinging back...even in canter he would have rider in forward seat if they were tight
3. a well ridden horse "pulls" itself towards the riders hand (ride back to front)

depending on the horse this was done with a ling rein or a short rein.

My 4 year old will curl easy...therefore I NEVER ride him without pushing to a connection in the outside rein. Never a loose rein. The inside rein connection depends on the direction I am riding (stiff side or hollow side)

[spottedponylover]

Thanks!

As far as evasions, when I got him, his favorite was to throw his left shoulder regardless of the direction we were going and over bend to the right. He would and still does, grab the bit and lean on what ever side we were bending to. (I have bits with teeth marks in them.) I used to get so tired of holding him up (sore arms, shoulders and back), that I'd just drop him and he'd almost fall, since he seemed to be relying on me to keep his head in place. He's not quite that bad now. But, on more than one occassion, I'll get a "that's good" from my trainer and he's really pulling. I've asked about this and get either "he doesn't look like he is" or "maybe he's tired."

We've been working on this for about a year. When I ask him to use his hindquarters the way I was taught originally, he'll trot if we're walking or canter if we're trotting and throw his head way up, again grabbing the bit in his teeth. One of my previous instructors would say that when they started doing stuff like that, I was asking correctly and they were trying to evade, and that I should be persistent and keep asking. They would eventually get it. The horses that I rode with her were been there, done that lesson horses (eventers) who were used to beginners, so you had to ask correctly to get them to do anything.

[bort84]

I have a horse that came to me very scared to go into the bridle so he would curl up and present a false sense of collection. He was going forward, but he wasn't really using his hind end.

So, when I got him, we spent probably 2 months doing almost nothing but long and low stretchy circles. He needed to learn how to use his hind end to push his entire body. Coming from a saddle seat background, I thought my trainer was losing it, haha. I was like, how can he have his head down there and learn to use his hind end? But a horse can be using his hind end properly without necessarily having the self carriage you'd expect during an upper level collected movement. If they are working with a nice round back, the hind end can be engaged with the head low without falling on the forehand.

Well, all of the long on low taught my guy to use his back correctly, and combined with the bending and circling he learned to balance properly and use his hind end as his motor. Then we threw in lateral work to increase his strength as well. Seriously though, this was about all we did for quite awhile. And a LOT of times, his head was a bit behind the vertical. We don't necessarily aim for it to be that way, but he could still get benefit out of the movement going a bit BTV. A little bit of BTV is not the great sin that a lot of people make it out to be. It's not something you should aim for in the finished product, but it's not rollkur either... Trying to force my horse to be in front of the vertical all the time would make him very upset. So we work slow, try to ignore it but always try to ask and allow for improvement. Now he's come around. Horse training always requires flexibility from horse to horse.

Also, as he was behind the bridle when I first got him, I LOVE it when he starts to pull on me a bit, haha. Gives me something to work with. Saddle seat obviously isn't the same as coming from the hunter world, but they both have a very different definition of contact. You need a good bit more feel on the bit to do a lot of dressage work, though you should not feel like your arms are being pulled out, that's too hard.

Plus, there are a few other horses I've worked with that were pullers that quickly came out of it if you could get them to stretch long an low (helps break up resistance too) and also do a lot of bending, circling, lateral work, etc. The bending requires them to focus a little more on keeping their balance. They have to use their body for that and stop pulling so hard. Once you can get them on their hind end, they can carry themselves better and should learn to stop pulling.

Anyway, have a chat with your trainer about it. I love to sit and chat with my trainer about why we're doing something, what the end goal is, why this exercise will get me from point A to point B. Sometimes things can get lost in translation, so she can probably reword it so you understand better.

[Gloria]

Do you do Yoga? Or do you know the "cat and cow" posture used frequently in Yoga? The best way I can explain this is to think about the "cat" posture. Try this, get down to your four feet with your wrist below your shoulder and knee below your hip joint. Now keep your neck long and stretch forward and down. You should feel your back risen and your back muscle stretch. This feeling is what you are trying to achieve when you ask your horse to go long and low.

If you over extend your neck and jam you chin to your collar bone, you create tension on top of your neck, similiar to the behind the verticle for the horse.

To properly gymnasticize any muscle, you need to strech and contract it. The low and long is the stretch phase. Many horses when improperly trained, have their muscles especially back muscle over contracted and they often manifest as hollow back. What your trainer is wanting you to do, is to stretch that back muscle so your horse can use the back muscle properly, and so he can raise his back. Depending on how tense your horse' back is, it may be hard for him to stretch down and forward, and often time their nose will be behind the verticle. Or if he is pulling himself forward with front end, he will be behind verticle as well. The fix for both is simple, forward, and make sure you give him enough reins so he CAN.

[SkippinwithPippin]

I try to ride my horse in that frame for a little while each ride to encourage him to stretch into the bridle and really swing through his body (before I ask for more contact and uphill frame). When I got him, he didn't even touch the bit...I mean, so far behind the bit he was a mile back from it because of the harsh one the previous owner used. Anyway, you will know if the stretching he is doing is effectively using his hind end if you can feel his back round up and his movement will be more swinging and pushing forward (especially at the trot). I think someone may have mentioned this (as I skimmed)...but get on all fours and arch your back up: you head goes down and chin is toward your chest and you butt tucks under you. Then try to stick you nose forward and straight out and see what happens to your back...it hollows! Picture that when finding the right "stretchy" frame. Hope this helps! Good luck!

[spottedponylover]

Thanks guys! The yoga moves really helped.

Bort84 - I think your explanation is what my trainer was trying to say, except it didn't quite come across that way. My guy was never behind the bit. He was usually head in the air with the bit in his teeth.

This makes more sense now!