Pony Conformation Help

[0ttb]

I'm looking for a pony jumper and I was just sent conformation shots of one I really like, but something's off about its hind end apparently. I have no idea what a peaked croup is besides the obvious stated in the name, and when I asked twice on another forum I never got a reply, my trainer won't answer her phone, I can't find anything helpful on google, and so here I am.

This is the pony- coming 5 year old paint pony. I know her feet are in desperate need of a farrier, (I'm assuming that when they're cut properly her front cannon bones will appear to come out of her knee a little nicer, maybe?) but again, it's the croup area that's puzzling me.

I don't have the best eye for conformation (still learning) so please comment if she looks put together well enough for the jumper ring as well! Thank you.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/sedona_2.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/sedona_1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/sedona_3.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/sedona_4.jpg

[Seven-up]

Steep croup, maybe? Meaning there's a sort of a drop off from the croup down to the tail, instead of a gentle slope. I think the hind end is a little bit off in that equilateral triangle that you want from croup to stifle to point of buttocks, but not bad. EDIT: I was looking at the photo where the hind leg is way out behind her when I came up with that. Looking at the first photo again, it actually looks fairly equilateral, just eyeballing it. The pony actually looks fairly huntery to me, but it could ride like a firecracker, I don't know.


I think that pony is cute as a box of babies. In my humble opinion, ponies defy the laws of conformation. I've seen ponies that look like they were made up of spare parts rock the jumper ring. Is this pony close enough for you to ride? Nothing about the pony makes me think, "Oh God NO!!!" so I think it's one of those things where you need to go ride it and see how it does.

[0ttb]

Yes, she is close enough for me to go see and I was planning on seeing her on Friday! And yes, she does have a very huntery look to her, but she seems really athletic and that's why I'm looking into her.

And can't a steep croup be fixed with better muscling? Someone said "injury" on another board which was scaring me. (hence the creation of this thread)

[poltroon]

It's a classic sort of QH butt - that's just an observation.

Many good jumpers have a steep croup like that. People don't like it for conformation hunters, but it's not necessarily nonfunctional.

I'd want to see the pony move and see what happens over a crossrail.

[Czar]

I had an Appendix QH (that probably had some paint in there) and he had a very similar looking hind end.

He slipped badly in the muck while lunging at a show once and was never the same after that. I spent thousands of dollars on him with vet work & chiropractic adjustments but nobody could quite pinpoint what the problem was. He developed a "hitch" which would show up about every 20 steps or so. When he first did it, I gave him time off but when it wasn't getting better after months, I decided to start riding him and the work actually helped. Like I said, he was never 100% but he still jumped around at 2'9" and got all his changes (and placed in hacks :confused:).

Like Seven-up stated, lots of horses/ponies defy their conformation. If my horse hadn't of slipped (his back legs went waaay back:eek:) he might of been just fine. Even with the 'injury' he was still able to compete - he never seemed to be in pain.

[poltroon]

And can't a steep croup be fixed with better muscling? Someone said "injury" on another board which was scaring me. (hence the creation of this thread)

No, can't be fixed with muscle; the bones are where they are. I see no evidence of injury.

[Seven-up]

Yes, she is close enough for me to go see and I was planning on seeing her on Friday! And yes, she does have a very huntery look to her, but she seems really athletic and that's why I'm looking into her.

And can't a steep croup be fixed with better muscling? Someone said "injury" on another board which was scaring me. (hence the creation of this thread)

Steep croup and "hunter's bump" are 2 different things. Steep croup is just conformation. Hunter's bump (Big bump where the croup is) is from...my memory is failing...a strain/injury in the pelvic/hip area. I forget if it's always the result of an injury.


Here's a picture of a hunter's bump. See the speed bump looking thing at the croup? http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jwequine.com/images2/newsletter-bump.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jwequine.com/newsletter.html&usg=__mcT8LStnd8WfE4RiLnMpBHq0K7Q=&h=192&w=200&sz=6&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=U5WqistgCJg75M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhunter%2527s%2Bbump%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3 D1T4GPTB_enUS289US289%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

[Czar]

And can't a steep croup be fixed with better muscling? Someone said "injury" on another board which was scaring me. (hence the creation of this thread)

I don't mean to discourage but hind end lamenesses are the pits - hard to diagnose and hard to rehab.

It would be helpful to see a pic of her from behind higher up. A steep croup is one thing but if she has hind end issues, it could be something more serious like a dropped hip. We had another Appendix QH that had a dropped hip from a trailering accident as a yearling...he was fine until he got into steady showing & then he started to get sore. When he started missing changes, we realized it was too much for him.

A dropped hip usually means muscle atrophy which CAN be fixed with re-muscling...it depends on the severity of the injury in the first place.

(I reread that last line and what I meant is that muscle atrophy can be fixed...a dropped hip CANNOT be).

[0ttb]

Thanks for all the replies! Here are some more pictures of her. Sorry, no videos.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/Picture6-17.png
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/Picture2-17.png
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/Picture6-17.png

[Seven-up]

That pony is freakin' cute. :D The jumping pics are kinda-- meh, but as far as the first one where she's hanging the left leg a little, it looks like she could be getting ready to land on the left lead, and the second one looks like she is just unimpressed with the fence. Perfectly good reasons why they're not WOW jumps.

Hopefully when you go try her out you can get some videos. Maybe just 'cause I want to see her again!:winkgrin:

[Czar]

When you said something is off about her hind end apparently in your first post...was this b/c they said this to you or b/c some person on a BB said it?

If the second...I wouldn't put too much store in that. She looks really cute and owning horses is a crap shoot - she might last into her late twenties....she may pull a suspensory tomorrow????

Conformation should be a general guideline....you're never going to find anything perfect so you decide what you can live with and what you want to take a chance on.

The thing is...for every horse person that has a story about a horse that had X conformation fault and broke down there is another horse person with a horse with the exact same conformation fault that lasted forever.

[0ttb]

Thanks for that post Czar. And yes, it was someone's comment from another board. (assuming that's what BB is)

[PNWjumper]

I think she's really cute, and I personally don't have any issues with a steep croup (if the surrounding conformation is good). I think she looks like a cute pony jumper prospect. :)

[Aerial]

*drool* she's sooo cute!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm riding a pony that has a steep croup like this pony, he has no problems and has never had any soundness issues.

[Sugarbrook]

I think she is very cute. Jumpers for her? Hummmm........... She looks like a hunter.

[ambar]

I'm with poltroon -- that's a typical QH rear end, but fortunately she doesn't have the steep pasterns that often go with it. The side confo shots were taken from too low to really see her topline, but the one of her going over the brush jump says there's no hunter's bump. Go try her!

[NeverEnd]

I think she is very cute. Jumpers for her? Hummmm........... She looks like a hunter.

I think she looks quite "huntery" as well. I've heard it called a "jumpers bump" and seen plenty of horses with it who do not have any issues because of it. I'd venture that it's a confirmation flaw and most likely would not impair the pony physically. But as one COTHER mentionted, buying/owning horses is definitely a crap shot. Super cute nontheless! Best of luck!

[poltroon]

It's important to realize that the shape of topline from the top of the rump to the tail is completely cosmetic, and only reflecting the end of the path of the spine. No major muscle groups for the hind end doing work are attaching to the spine past the sacroilliac joint.

What IS important is the location of the S-I joint, and the relative lengths and angles of the bones and joints in the hind end - where the pelvis attaches to the spine, the femur to the pelvis, and the stifle.

A good book to help you find those joints is "Priniciples of conformation analysis" by Deb Bennett.

As I said, this is a typical QH rear. The main thing that I would wonder about from the pictures is the relative height of the pelvis compared to the forehand and how that affects her ability to spring.

[superpony123]

OMG. what a cute pony :D i don't see anything terribly wrong, just ditto what everyone else has said.

also, it looks like his feet could use some trimming at a different angle maybe, but they don't look too bad.

[0ttb]

Thanks everyone. I'm going up today to see her, so I guess the only way to see if she's what I'm looking for is to ride her!

[Go Fish]

I think she's really cute and I don't see anything glaringly wrong. I'd stick her for sure...how old is she? With some training, I think her front end can be corrected. She has the basics.

Her hind end is typical QH/Paint. At least she's not downhill. I think she's a bit long in the loin, but not enough to make me pass her by. Legs look clean and she's very attractive. I agree with others...I think she could hunter.

[0ttb]

She's 4 and a half. And here are the videos I got from today. (This is not me riding) Is it just me being picky or does her hind end look off at the walk? She was just starting off so it could have been a little been of that, but she felt so good at the trot I forgot to video her after she w/t/c-ed.

And she does bend and use her back- at the trot at least. I was playing around when I got on but felt bad that I was walking for 10 minutes, (her owner looked like she was falling asleep...) so then I started trotting and she really has the long and low thing down. There were several instances where she got a little too strong with her putting head/neck down and I couldn't tell if she was trying to get away from the bit or she thought she needed to put her head lower. (I remember the owner saying something about using side reins) That could be fixed though. At the canter she was definitely green, (issues with getting her leads, and getting them to swap in the back which I guess will come from more muscle?) and got a little strong in the corners- I really had to work to get her to not lean and stay up. On a good note, she was an awwwesome jumper. Definitely a pony jump, but you could feel the springs in her hind end. She was VERY good about taking care of her rider too. The owner was jumping over crossrails at an angle and got left behind a few times and the pony just kept going, and then when she went for the skinny and the sweedish oxer, (the combo in the video) the owner was left behind on both jumps and pony just kept truckin'! I went over the cross rails a few times and the oxer, and I played with long spots over the crossrail and for the oxer we got a little too close but she saved me and chipped in a bit. Again, she really took care of her rider over fences.

Walk (http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/?action=view&current=MOV00366.flv)
Trot (http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/?action=view&current=MOV00368.flv)
Canter (http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/?action=view&current=MOV00370.flv)
Jump (http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/sedona%207-09/?action=view&current=MOV00374.flv)

I liked her, but I still have to decide if she's worth going back out with my trainer. (who's away this weekend, and she'll see these videos when she gets back!) A couple of things made me kind of go "eh", including her constant tail swishing when you asked her to move. Not sure if she was completely comfortable in the saddle she was ridden in though. (It didn't look like it fit properly from a few angles)

Also, how much would you pay for her, personally? I thought she was overpriced a bit considering all the factors, (economy, and being green) and was trying to come up with a reasonable number that I would offer for her.

Thanks everyone.

[shalomypony]

I think she's really cute,looks sound.It's hard to say what to offer....depends on her show history or non show history.Around here with no show record,I'd say $4000 tops.

[Czar]

She doesn't look off to me - her walk is a *little* stilted as per her breed and conformation but not off.

And I didn't see her swishing her tail at all and certainly not pinning her ears?

I'd say around $4500 - she does what you ask, jumps anything in front of her & seems to be an all around good girl.

Lots of people fast track a horse's training to get them ready for sale...they want them jumping a little bit and doing your basic wtc - something with more training on the flat usually means more time which also means more $$$.

[Seven-up]

I still like her. For me, the video was kind of choppy, so I can't really say much. Her walk looked fine to me, trot is cute, couldn't tell anything at the canter b/c the video was skipping. She looked green but willing. I did see a little ears back, but she didn't look real P.O.'ed.

Can't really comment on the price much, either. Horses go for peanuts around here. I kind of think you might do better if you bought her with the intention of turning her into a hunter. Resale potential is much better than a jumper.

One thought, are you smaller than that rider? She's thin, but tall. If you're planning on growing any more, you might want to look at bigger horses.;)

[0ttb]

Thanks for the price suggestions, I was thinking in that range myself.

And good about the walk- so I was just being picky.

Her swishing tail/ears were captured in other videos I have of her trotting around, not so much in the one I posted. I wasn't sure if it was because the rider put leg on, (the owner said she doesn't like to use a lot of leg with her horses because if she loses a stirrup or something...?) saddle, or what.

And I just put the stirrup holes down one from the rider's. I'm going to be 17 in two months, and I'm 5' 3.75''! No more growing. Heres me riding her, my mom managed to take a shot from the car-

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk189/tyedyeme/Picture9.png

[HJPony]

Well, like many others recently stated shes a bit steep over the croup in comparison to being round.

I would like to see a bit of a smaller more refined head on her, although she is a quarter pony. Shes a bit thick through the throatlatch and seems to have a well developed neck with muscling accordingly.

Moving to her shoulder, she has a sloping degree. However even with a good farrier I don't think she'll ever move flawlessly up front. That being said I would like to see a 45 degree in the shoulder. She doesn't move terribly in the video though. She does stand quite a bit "under at the knees", particularly in the first photo. Possibly due to the way they have her modeling. However I do like the slope in her pastern. She could use muscling through her chest and forearms. If you notice her front feet have been shoed differently but can be corrected over time. I like her cannon to forearm lengh ratio, giving you a longer gait.

She has a short topline to a longer underline, a good quality to have. She does tie in nicely at the stifles. A bit steep at the croup, too much for my liking, but would benefit in the jumpers. If you do plan to jump her, she really could use some hind end muscling. She does have really long cannon bones behind and a short gaskin..?

She toes out behind, particularly her rear right. That's unfortunate but not too too awful and a good farrier will really help her.


Sorry for such a long post, my FFA horse judging skills are haunting me this summer! I do think she'll stay sound. All that mumbajumba being said I would not pay more than 5000 for this mare depending on your location. Make sure you stick her. If she's over the pony line, don't buy. period. Those unfortunately can be hard to sell down the road. And do a PPE like there's no tomorrow!