Working Hunter faux pas

[arena run]

It's that time of year again. 4-H jumping. Once a year. After 8 years one would think I'd have some of this stuff 'in my brain' by now, but alas. It is not to be.

So..... got a few questions. This is, btw, a Novice Working Hunter class whose max fence is 2'. It's a 4-H show and this class carries no points, it's just a learning experience for the kids who can't do the bigger fences yet.

Can a rider bring her horse down to trot between fences to regain control and balance?
Can a rider circle away from a fence if she feels her horse isn't balanced/lined up/listening/etc? Like, making the approach, horse isn't lined up properly or is strong and 'pulling' her to the fence, she circles away and approaches again. Or does she just keep going, wait for the refusal, and then circle?

I'm pretty sure I've got the answer to this next one... if the horse runs out on the second jump of a combination she has the choice to do the first fence again or just come in on the fence he refused on. BUT.... can she take the fence previous to the one he refused on if it's NOT a combination? Say, it's a somewhat difficult line or rollback or whatever from one fence to the other, can she repeat the fence previous to set herself up for the next one?

I think I've got most of the rest... courtesy circle, eye contact/nod to the judge, whistle means 'please leave' <g>. We just don't get to do this stuff near enough. Once a year just DON'T get it! :) Thanks for any help ya'll can give me. sylvia

PS... not looking for thoughts of whether this child should be jumping or not. She's had several years of 'lessons' but no real ring experience. She has some problems w/her focus out there and her horse is green to jumping but willing and capable if she can hold herself together. They'll be fine for the little class they're entered in Thursday... I was just wanting to be totally sure about this stuff myself so I can be completely confident when talking to her about her options. I want to have zero wishy/washy'ness about this when I'm talking to her.

[ImJumpin]

I know nothing about 4-H and if 4-H has its own rules, etc. In a non-4-H setting, these would be the answers to your questions:

-In unrated beginner type classes, trotting is usually not penalized between lines. However, I've never seen a kid go in and trot in the lines. Usually you'd see a trot in canter out. That said, if the kid is not ready to canter a line-- for safety's sake, don't.

-If you circle before a fence, it is the same as a refusal. Once again, if it is going to be safer to circle, then circle. But after so many circles (3 refusals normally), she may be asked to leave and will be disqualified.

-There will never be an instance in a class like the one you describe where there will be a true combination. You may not start a line over to get the second fence in a non-combination situation.

-There is no need for eye contact/nod at the judge. Usually this comes into play if you decide to leave the ring before your course is over-- you might then pull up, look at the judge and nod to let them know you are finished and thank you for his/her time.

[EAY]

At our schooling shows beginners usually have the option of trotting or cantering their courses but not both. If trotting, the rider should bring the horse or pony back to a trot within a few strides after each fence if the animal lands at the canter, and you would be penalized for trotting in and cantering out of a line. If the rider is cantering the course they should not break stride, though at this level most of our judges will not penalize a simple lead change since at least it shows that the kid knows what lead they're supposed to be on, but our beginner classes are usually equitation classes and not hunter.

The prize lists should state whether or not the rider has the option of trotting the course.

[GreystoneKC]

Are you "trainer" or "mom"?

Can a rider bring her horse down to trot between fences to regain control and balance?

Unless the rules state that trotting will not be penalized, it most likely will be penalized. Around here, in our 4-H, they often have "real" h/j judges (often with cards), and they judges as they would at a rated show. If anything, I would assume trotting in and cantering out or trotting for lead changes would be the most acceptable forms of "breaking". However, if the rider NEEDS to trot "to regain control and balance", they SHOULD do so, whether they're going to get a ribbon or not! If they NEED to trot in that case, they probably wouldn't ribbon anyway.


Can a rider circle away from a fence if she feels her horse isn't balanced/lined up/listening/etc? Like, making the approach, horse isn't lined up properly or is strong and 'pulling' her to the fence, she circles away and approaches again. Or does she just keep going, wait for the refusal, and then circle?

Circling away from the jump will count as a refusal. Period. Again, if she is out of control and/or unbalanced, this may be the best/safest option, but it will count as a refusal.


if the horse runs out on the second jump of a combination she has the choice to do the first fence again or just come in on the fence he refused on. BUT.... can she take the fence previous to the one he refused on if it's NOT a combination? Say, it's a somewhat difficult line or rollback or whatever from one fence to the other, can she repeat the fence previous to set herself up for the next one?

Is she is jumping into a one- or two-stride combination and the horse refuses the first OR second jump, you retake BOTH jumps of the combination - mandatory. For any other length of line, 3, 4,5,6 etc strides... if the horse jumps the first jump of the line and refuses the second, you ONLY jump the actual jump that was refused. For any refusal other than a combination, you ONLY jump the jump refused. If you jump another jump, that will put you off course and be eliminated. Always remind students that if they have a refusal, it's best to take a deep breath, look around for the best approach to the refused jump, and take your time getting back to it! Too many riders spin their horse around and run at the jump the second time and get another refusal. Take your time, you already aren't getting a ribbon, you might as well make it a good learning experience and school for the next class!


I think I've got most of the rest... courtesy circle, eye contact/nod to the judge, whistle means 'please leave'

Not sure about 4-H anywhere but here, but you don't need to recognize the judge.


PS... not looking for thoughts of whether this child should be jumping or not. She's had several years of 'lessons' but no real ring experience. She has some problems w/her focus out there and her horse is green to jumping but willing and capable if she can hold herself together. They'll be fine for the little class they're entered in Thursday... I was just wanting to be totally sure about this stuff myself so I can be completely confident when talking to her about her options. I want to have zero wishy/washy'ness about this when I'm talking to her.

Honestly, the fact that you put quotes around the word lessons following stating that you don't want thoughts on whether or not this rider should be jumping a bit disconcerting... combine that with asking about what to do with an unbalanced, pulling, not-listening horse and refusals, run-outs, and coming back to a trot to regain control... Ummmm... well, you said you're not looking for my opinion, so I won't go there...

[arena run]

Thanks for the info!

The trotting would come into play strictly as a way to get the horse slowed down, rebalanced, and listening to her. He gets a bit strong and can pull you over the fences. I told her sit down after the fence and get him back under control, if that includes some trotting... so be it. I just wanted to make sure she wouldn't get whistled out for it. ;)

The 'combination' I'm talking about is a set of three fences that is, inevitably, set up down one long side of the arena. For 8 years this line of three fences has been there. ;) It's a 2 stride from #1 to #2 and then a one stride from #2 to #3 (or maybe it's 3 strides and then 2... not sure what constitutes a stride,ie, if the take-off stride is included or not. The second fence is a land, one full stride, and then the take-off stride) This is as 'combination' as it any of the classes at this show get, but it is clear that these last two fences are part of a set.

I did tell her that if she just gets so flustered that she looses focus completely and she says to herself, "I just want out" <lol> to just look over at the judge and nod, basically asking for permission to leave the arena. Then she was to walk out, I'd give her a hug, and we'd go from here. ;)

However, if she gets in that situation and says, "I want to finish this thing" I wanted to be able to tell her to take a circle, re-establish her balance and focus, and get going through the course again.

Thanks again for the help.

[GreystoneKC]

The 'combination' I'm talking about is a set of three fences that is, inevitably, set up down one long side of the arena. For 8 years this line of three fences has been there. ;) It's a 2 stride from #1 to #2 and then a one stride from #2 to #3 (or maybe it's 3 strides and then 2... not sure what constitutes a stride,ie, if the take-off stride is included or not. The second fence is a land, one full stride, and then the take-off stride) This is as 'combination' as it any of the classes at this show get, but it is clear that these last two fences are part of a set.

I did tell her that if she just gets so flustered that she looses focus completely and she says to herself, "I just want out" <lol> to just look over at the judge and nod, basically asking for permission to leave the arena. Then she was to walk out, I'd give her a hug, and we'd go from here. ;)

However, if she gets in that situation and says, "I want to finish this thing" I wanted to be able to tell her to take a circle, re-establish her balance and focus, and get going through the course again.

Wow! They should NOT have a line like that at a 4-H show!!!!!!! If it is a legit 2-to-a-1 (land, stride, stride, jump, land, stride, jump), then yes, you must retake the entire combo if there is a refusal at any part of it. Holy cow I can't believe they make your kids do that. Most of the local 4-H kids here would die.

That's a good attitude to take as it seems to be only one class once a year. Don't worry about the ribbons so much and what the judge will think, but just keep quiet and steady over the jumps. Most times the only things that will get you eliminated from the class will be 3 refusals (most common # accepted at 4-H shows), falling off, or massive horse misbehavior (rearing, bucking, running away, etc).

[Giddy-up]

If the combination line is giving her issue, have you set it up at home to practice?

A 2 stride to a 1 stride would be set 36' & 24' for an average horse.

A 3 stride to a 2 stride would be set 48' & 36'.

Depending on the height of the jumps (if they are low) or if the horse is a little short strided or having to "run", you can shorten the lines a 1-2' to make it more encouraging for the rider to gain confidence.

Your daughter can circle or trot when she wants, but she will be penalized for it as there will be other riders who don't need to. 3 refusals/circles is elimination although some places might use 2 so check with the show organizers. I don't know if there are standard 4-H rules as I was never a member.

[rabicon]

Does she have a trainer? Are you her trainer? You should really know what the stride should be between fences to even set them up at home for her to practice. Landing and take off is not a stride. A stride is a full stride of canter. Usually 12' for a horse but it does differ, you have to know your horse and how long his stride is some are 10'. My guy is 11' and makes the 12' with a little more go and makes 10' with a nice slow pace. Take off is 6' and landing is 6'. So for one stride you add the 12' with the 6' and 6' to get 24' between. At a show they will make the stride 12' and you have to adjust your horse to that stride length if he is longer or shorter. The should not have a 2 stride to a 1 stride in a 2' division anywhere. The smallest would be 3 stride to 2 stride but that is very uncommon in any 2' division. Good luck

[besttwtbever]

So I'll admit it's been a while since I've shown but I am a little shocked and a bit confused. :confused:

Since when has working hunter been a 2' division? Since when did hunters have a combination that included a one stride (I have seen 2 and 3 strides before, no surprise there)? I have really only seen combinations including one strides in the Jumpers or Equitation, and even then it was not at the 2' height.

I realize this is 4-H, but isn't 4-H about educating kids? Shouldn't they be practicing what they might see in a USEF show at that level? ie. Wouldn't a more appropriate title be green horse/rider over fences if it is that low?

I am not trying to bash 4-H, I was a member for years, albeit not the horse part. I showed rabbits and our rabbit shows were always what you would have seen at an ARBA (similar to USEF for horses) show. I am just trying to understand. Could someone please explain? Not to hijack the thread but I am very curious.

[luvs2ridewbs]

She said it was novice working hunter.

[SidesaddleRider]

Since when did hunters have a combination that included a one stride (I have seen 2 and 3 strides before, no surprise there)?

One-strides (especially a 3 to a 1 or a 4 to a 1) are pretty common at some of the rated shows in the A/A 3' and A/O 3'6" divisions, at least in NoVA. I have always had them in the course when showing at the Warrenton Pony Show and the Middleburg Classic, for instance.

[findeight]

Just guessing here but, even at a 4h show with somewhat different interpretation of what we think of as standard Hunter courses and judging...SUITABILITY is going to be a biggie in a 2' Novice "Working Hunter". Just as it is any any other judged class....actually, if it's that obvious, you can get excused from speed classes or jumping at the judges request.

Any kid obviously overmounted and/or unable to control the horse without circling or dropping to a trot is going to get dinged or flat out excused in a Novice class. If they need to trot the lead changes or trot into the lines, that's fine, getting run off with is not.

Know you don't want to hear it but this is not such a good idea, especially with a combination somebody thinks is a good idea to put in a teeny tiny Novice level class...you usually do not ever see a combination at 2'6" and below. They start showing up at 3' when it is presumed the rider and horse are well schooled enough to get thru them.

Worst wreck I ever saw was in a 2' class-low jumps does not mean you can't break your neck and hurt/ruin the horse.

If the kid is not confident and able to control the horse around a tiny course, you are asking for trouble. Show nerves kick in and half of what a rider knows can go out the window, goes double for little kids. She needs to be relaxed and confident and able to control the horse easily at home before you go try it at a show.

[rugbygirl]

Your Working Hunter sounds a lot like the way our 2' and below Hunter works at Open (read: Quarter Horses doing mostly Western events, have an English class for funsies).

We are not penalized for trotting. The judge typically rewards the horse-rider who are balanced and in control the whole time. If someone puts in a clean trip at the canter (with correct leads the whole way) they WILL place a lot higher of course...but a nice and clean mostly trotted round will place over a sloppy/wrong lead canter round. A clean mostly trotted round with nice equitation will ALWAYS place over a horse that pulls the kid around the course.

That combination is just cruel and unusual punishment. :no: I would hazard a guess that most of the kids will chip the second and sloppily pop over the third. Even if you don't school jumps at home, use ground poles to work on that striding. I'd take a line like that at the trot to first fence, let the horse canter out the next two, then come back to trot in the corner in a show like you're describing.

Circling before you get the refusal isn't a very good idea. In my experience, that teaches your horse that they can duck out of jumps...but if your daughter has used that strategy successfully, then there is no PROBLEM, but I would think the judge would rather see an honest attempt then circle.

--

Jumping classes like this are meant to be fun. If pony is being a twit, just make sure your daughter gets him over one fence before she leaves the ring. Ie, if it is clear that there is no way pony is hitting that combination, take him cleanly over a less threatening jump and leave the ring.

[AliCat]

I was involved in 4-H for many years, and never ever heard of a course like this especially at the lower level. It was either cross rails twice around the outside track, or outside-diagonal-outside-diagonal (with at least 5 strides in the lines). I do not think this sounds like a safe course for riders at this level and DO NOT encourage her to trot through a combination like that. PRACTICE at home. Eyes up, leg on, and STEER!

[BAC]

Since when did hunters have a combination that included a one stride (I have seen 2 and 3 strides before, no surprise there)? I have really only seen combinations including one strides in the Jumpers or Equitation, and even then it was not at the 2' height.

Its what used to be called an "in and out" in my showing days, are you telling me that doesn't exist in hunters anymore? :confused:

[danceronice]

I did 4-H and our courses, while they did reach 2' for the 'advanced' kids, would never have a combination like the one described. And while my first club had some horses who could probably have taken that at a trot (we were the only all-H/J club) I would have been VERY hesitant to try. IIRC, we basically had the classic six-stride line, diagonal, six-stride the other way, diagonal again, repeat the first line, and all verticals, with cross-rails to low verticals for the 'beginner' class. That does NOT sound like an appopriate beginner 4-H course and if you're worried about having to trot to balance or circle (refusal), I really would reconsider her doing a class involving a three-jump combo at 2'.

[CallMeGrace]

I am co-leader of our equestrian 4-H club. Never heard of a course like that! Also, as I was "clasically" trained in H/J's many moons ago, this drives me crazy, but it's the rule: simple changes or trotting on the course is a break in gait and is penalized. You should be able to find all those sorts of rules on your local 4-H web site. Sometimes hard to find, but they are there and reading through them can be very helpful. I have not heard of "Novice Working Hunter" in 4-H, but counties/states may well be different.

[Haalter]

Yikes, that combination sounds totally inappropriate for kids showing once-a-year at this level! I've never done the 4-H thing, but at the 2' to 2'6" level at shows I attend (schooling as well as rated) there are NEVER in-and-outs below 3'. Not to mention, there is NEVER a triple combination, which is what you've described, in ANY hunter class, with the possible exception of a hunter derby!

The ironic thing is, at shows where you are likely to find kids at this level who take regular jumping lessons, have knowledgeable hunter trainers, and are mounted on experienced show horses, the courses are generally simple and inviting and set the kids and horses up for success. It's at the shows where the kids and horses jump once a year and have no formal training that you see the colored rails in hunter classes, jumps set too big for the skill level, and lines set on the half stride. It's really a shame, as showing at this level is supposed to be FUN and build confidence...

To the OP, if this class is as much of a train wreck as I imagine it will be (not just for your kid, but for any kid at this level), it might be worthwhile to talk to the show managers about improving the course. There are surely H/J professionals in your area who would be willing to donate a few hours of time designing a course and choosing appropriate jumps to ensure these kids and horses have a good, positive experience, not a scary one filled with refusals and tears.

[findeight]

Oh, I've done a 3 jump/triple combination in the 3' Adults at USEF AA rateds MANY times...usually a 3 to a 2 to a 2 but have done a 1 stride out a couple of times. Usually vertical/oxer/oxer.

BUT they do not set them at anything below 3' and you probably won't see them in the 3' Pre Green.

Most of the USEF affiliates (your local H/J associations that give year end awards) have wording to the effect "no combinations or in and out" at the 2'6" levels on down. This is because tradition-and common sense-dictate a certain level of competence should be present before jumping the things.

[rugbygirl]

simple changes or trotting on the course is a break in gait and is penalized.

Since this kid is worried about run-outs and refusals...and it sounds like most of the rest of the kids aren't exactly experienced, my guess is that the judging won't go to the degree where breaking gait is penalized. We're talking rails down, refusals, off-course, horses whistled out for being dangerous/out of control...the way my coach puts it, when she judges these classes, she "only has to use about 3 symbols" :lol:

If you're in a class where everyone is putting in nice clean cantered rounds, THEN we get to the point where flying changes are placed over simple changes, and they start counting canter strides before the change etc.

There are hunter classes and then there are Hunter classes, right? Kinda like how at my next Open show, you have to call ahead to get the "Dressage Course". It's not a test, it's not one of the EC-approved ones...it's a unique COURSE :D I'm not going to worry about my flying changes for the Working Hunter class at that show too much. ;)

[findeight]

Actually, at this tiny Novice level, trotting is NOT to be penalized in most of the affiliates, not considered a break in gait. You need to check the rule book of the organization putting on the show-in this case 4H.

The kid that can hold the canter AND stay under control will still beat the kid who has to trot simply because they did something a little harder and got a plus...but there is no deduction for that trot.

[Haalter]

Oh, I've done a 3 jump/triple combination in the 3' Adults at USEF AA rateds MANY times...usually a 3 to a 2 to a 2 but have done a 1 stride out a couple of times. Usually vertical/oxer/oxer. A 3 to a 2 or a 3 to a 1 is NOT a "triple combination" in USEF terminology. A triple combination is comprised of two in-and-outs - one to one, two to two, two to one or one to two. A three or four or five or whatever to an in-and-out is not a triple combination. True triple combinations as defined by USEF are only seen in the jumper ring, and the equitation ring. In fact, either two in-and-outs or an in-and-out and a triple combination are required in USEF Talent Search classes and WIHS Jumper phases - and it has to be as described above, not a 3 to an in-and-out.

[arena run]

I appreciate all your replies. ;) I kinda understand the confusion, too. This is --- Mississippi!!! Hardly the mecca for h/j. We've got the speed classes down pat, but the hunter/jumper, well. This is just some adults trying to get some kids interested in jumping. There are probably less than 10 clubs in the whole state who offer o/f classes at their shows. And one of them that I called about was one fence, in the middle of the arena, that they took one time. <g> Hardly worth the effort of going to show.

I'll try to clear up some of the confusion and flesh this out a bit better for ya'll.


Haalter:
Here are the measurements between the fences (this is down the long side of the arena): Fence 1 to Fence 2 is 48 feet. Fence 2 to fence 3 is 24 feet.

As for train wrecks. Oh my, yes. We've had our share. It gets plumb painful watching some of these kids go around. It would be OH SO MUCH nicer if they could get in two or three easy shows before this one, but... it just isn't offered.

I am totally w/you on the idea that this should be a positive experience w/OUT refusals and tears. But there are refusals and tears every year. No one has been carted away in a stretcher, we have excellent ground crews and I believe anyone who was truly dangerous would be taken care of before they entered. The wildest I can remember was a rather large horse who pretty much ran away in the ring w/his rider (small rider, should NEVER have been on that horse) and that basically constituted a big lumbering canter while totally ignoring her attempts to steer and/or stop him. She got whistled out and horse finally came down to a trot at the out gate.

Some of it can be scary, yes... but I believe the folks who set the course up are trying their best to prepare these kids for the regional competition. and the one course of THAT I saw last year -- well, we need the kids to really realize what getting out there and jumping is. If they can't do our course then they have no business advancing to regionals.

The class this child entered is novice level and there is no advancement. Just this one class.


Since this kid is worried about run-outs and refusals...and it sounds like most of the rest of the kids aren't exactly experienced, my guess is that the judging won't go to the degree where breaking gait is penalized. We're talking rails down, refusals, off-course, horses whistled out for being dangerous/out of control...the way my coach puts it, when she judges these classes, she "only has to use about 3 symbols" :lol:

If you're in a class where everyone is putting in nice clean cantered rounds, THEN we get to the point where flying changes are placed over simple changes, and they start counting canter strides before the change etc.

There are hunter classes and then there are Hunter classes, right? Kinda like how at my next Open show, you have to call ahead to get the "Dressage Course". It's not a test, it's not one of the EC-approved ones...it's a unique COURSE :D I'm not going to worry about my flying changes for the Working Hunter class at that show too much. ;)

Yep. ;) Pretty much all of the above.

This particular class was won two years ago by a barrel racer who took her middle aged broodie, legged her up for 3 weeks, had me come over and coach her a time or two, and went out there and flat-out won that class. Granted she had a beautiful run. Horse was forward and jumped really easily, and the rider had good form - for the most part - landings were a bit, um, loose. <lol> THis girl is an excellent horseman no matter the tack though.




Greystone, I so appreciate all your comments and insight. I am actually not the mother, but I wouldn't qualify myself as trainer either. This is just a kid whose grandfather asked me to help her out. She's been taking lessons for years (in another state) and is just home for the summer w/grandad. He promised her years ago that he'd buy her a horse and this year he did.

She just wants to go show and she's been doing some jumping and these fences are only 2'... so. I figured it wouldn't hurt. If nothing else they get out there, do their courtesy circle, refuse three times, and head back to me. ;) Learning experience is all it is.

I want her to come out smiling, and if she can't be smiling then I want her to come out knowing she did her best for that day. That's all we're after for this class.

As for why a combination is in there.... well, they set the fences up one time. ;) For all the classes. ANd like I said, they're trying to get the kids more ready for the regional fences. Maybe I should be calling this set up an 'in and out'? That would make more sense. The 'pre fence' and then the two-fence in-and-out. Not a real combination, which is usually 3 fences, yes?

I'll make sure to tell her that she can circle if she needs to, but that is will count as one refusal.

Thanks for the 'take your time' advice. ;) That's my whole goal here - a good experience, to learn something, to come out of that pen a better rider, with a better horse, than when you went into that pen. That's what it's about.


..Honestly, the fact that you put quotes around the word lessons following stating that you don't want thoughts on whether or not this rider should be jumping a bit disconcerting... combine that with asking about what to do with an unbalanced, pulling, not-listening horse and refusals, run-outs, and coming back to a trot to regain control... Ummmm... well, you said you're not looking for my opinion, so I won't go there...

I do appreciate everything you said. I guess I was hedging against folks coming on here and blasting this girl in her decision to jump through this class. I'm not USEF, or whatever initials apply here, literate. I'm just a 4-H volunteer mom who is out to teach as much horsemanship and dressage to these kids as they'll allow me. Her getting out there and attempting this w/an honest horse who doesn't know a jump from a blade of grass is, to me, quite an act of bravery and is ripe w/learning potential. I will keep her as safe as a Safety Nazi Mom can keep a 14yo horse-crazy girl. And I totally, can't tell you how much, appreciate your concerns. If I see her getting 'too' out of control (of her own emotions) you better believe I'm not above hollering for her to leave the arena. We're going to have some key words that will remind her to sit up and focus... and then another that will tell her she should bow out of the course gracefully. No questions asked.

Then we'll recoup at the barn for the next day's flatwork equiatation class. ;)

Giddy-up, yes. We have practiced this type combination yesterday... and are heading back to the arena today to set up as much of a course as we can. Our arena got soaked (standing water) Monday and is dry enough to put up some jumps in certain places. It will at least give her a taste of jumping in a pen. But yes... I practice the heck outta any girl that I am responsible for putting out in that pen over a fence.

I may not know a lot of technical stuff, but I know safe, and unsafe, riding. And I won't put up w/the latter from a kid I'm responsible for.


Rabicon, well... yes. She has a trainer. But when I started talking about impulsion, and jumping from a rythem, and combinations, and verticals, and oxers... she didn't know what they were. She has decent form, but splays her fingers out in her crest release. I mentioned it to her and she said her first teacher never said a thing about it. Her second one has, but it hasn't been enough time (only a couple months there) for her to really have a fix on it. She also has a horrible habit of putting all her weight in her right stirrup. I stay on her constantly about this and it's improving... but you simply cannot jump safely w/your weight unbalanced like that.

Thank goodness this horse has a nice, willing, jump, and decent form. The 'run outs' and refusals I'm talking about are more from her lack of confidence and giving the horse mixed signals about actually tackling the jump, imo.




Thank ya'll all again. Ya'll are a total wealth of great advice and information. Hope I cleared up some of the confusion. sylvia

[findeight]

A 3 to a 2 or a 3 to a 1 is NOT a "triple combination" in USEF terminology. A triple combination is comprised of two in-and-outs - one to one, two to two, two to one or one to two. A three or four or five or whatever to an in-and-out is not a triple combination. True triple combinations as defined by USEF are only seen in the jumper ring, and the equitation ring. In fact, either two in-and-outs or an in-and-out and a triple combination are required in USEF Talent Search classes and WIHS Jumper phases - and it has to be as described above, not a 3 to an in-and-out.

Gotcha...terminology....

[arena run]

This is a video of my daughter, Mamie, on her appendix gelding last year doing the Working Hunter. The Novice Working Hunter class was the very same pattern (course) except that the fences were on a 2'max regardless of size of horse.

Mamie won this class, btw. Gives you an idea of how 'un'competitive these classes are! :) sylvia

[rabicon]

What video????:confused:

[arena run]

Well, I suppose it would be this one... you know. The one I forgot to 'paste'??? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFLSVLU6Ys&feature=related

[Haalter]

Sylvia, the line you described would be ridden as a three (48') to a one (22'). That's tougher than what you'd ever see in a 2' hunter class at a USEF show...at first, I thought it was the first line of the course, but I see on the video that at least there is something simpler before that.

I know nothing about Mississippi, but around here there are a plethora of schooling shows that offer crossrails/2'/2'6" hunters where the kids can get their feet wet. Even at rated shows there are plenty of classes for beginners where the courses are actually much easier and the jumps are lower than what that video shows. In my area, they call them "opportunity" classes and they are much less expensive that the regular classes - a good way to practice and get to show rated without spending $$$.

[Tex Mex]

Wow can I just say how impressed I am with your daughter's horse?? What a good boy! It's not easy to open up for those lines, then come back for those tight corners, then open up to find the next jump out of the turn like that. He looks like he has his own "eye".

[Silk]

Its what used to be called an "in and out" in my showing days, are you telling me that doesn't exist in hunters anymore? :confused:

I still call them in and outs and yes, they still exist, at least in the regular ponies:)

[LaraNSpeedy]

I am the 4H leader in my area - the advanced kids jump 2'6" here in 4H. My kids aspire to regular HJ (so they jump 3- 3'6" sometimes in my intermediate lessons) but we do 4H because I like the Hippology part of it - they learn how to ID hay and feed types and know what each is good for and understand all the signs for different ailments and injuries etc and also the conformation study - all GREAT ways to become a better equestrian! And at the shows they usually hire the same judges who judge the midlevels.

I will say that usually what I see mirrors a lot of what you see at the low level HJ shows. There is a trot division but no one can cross enter into anything that has canter. Then they have Beginner Division where the kids can trot THEIR CORNERS. The courses are 2 foot. THere is a beginner hunter hack with a x rail and a 2 footer. Then there is a novice hunter division and they cannot trot without penalty. These jumps are usually 2'3". They will not be asked to leave the arena but they are not likely to place. Then if you circle every on course, you have gone off course - and if you fear runouts - never circle upon entry. I know from a Joe Fargis thing I went to moons ago - if you are 'in trouble' and willing to forfeit your ribbon - then do a 'safe circle' canter circle at the end of the arena after a line to get your horse rebalanced and in control. But you will be marked as going off course. Then there is Open division which are horses and ponies over 2'6" and then a separate pony division over 2 foot. There is an Open Hunter Hack and Novice Hunter hack too. Novice hunter hack allows you to choose 2' or 2'6" for some reason.

Can she not do a walk trot class? If she is totally new to this - DO THE EASIEST thing there is to do. BUILD her confidence. If the horse gets strong.... then do a walk trot test. That is just my thought.

My students are not allowed to canter a course if they cannot keep their horse centered, straight and obediant over the fence. It is far more important that the rider is in control and the horse is obediant than cantering the line. I would PRIORITIZE what you want to accomplish. Be realistic and do not jeopardize the rider's safety and confidence. If I have a student who has been riding a lot and is ready to start showing but its a first show and she has a strong horse and its a canter control thing - a run out possibility etc - I would do the walk trot class the first show. And then maybe next show do the walk trot canter with the trot in the corners class or whatever.

Just my thoughts. So far I pretty much have had all my current students do their first show walk trot. So far - it was never something they felt weird about - they were nervous to remember THAT course and it was great to see them get ribbons their first time out and have a great experience. The next show if they moved up - the confidence and experience was so great for it.

[arena run]

Wow can I just say how impressed I am with your daughter's horse?? What a good boy! It's not easy to open up for those lines, then come back for those tight corners, then open up to find the next jump out of the turn like that. He looks like he has his own "eye".


:) THanks, Tex Mex. Yes, he does have his own 'eye'. He had to, 'cause we sure didn't know how to help him find his own distances! I will say, as partly brag, partly just stating fact, that Mamie was the one opening him up and then gathering him. He can be strong, but he does listen -- sometimes. She had a good hold on him and this was a different bit than she had been practicing with --- and he was listening MUCH better. So, the distances were his, but the 'lines and corners' were hers. ;) This course you see him performing in this video is after about 2, maybe 3 years of getting him ready here at the house and at our local arena (that was, btw, his first course to ever jump at a show). The first time she jumped him here at the house... oh my. It was terrible! :)

She was used to riding a little horse who had done it so much that he covered her mistakes and just took the fence. Wing, bless his heart, has no brain. Plenty of try, but just no gray matter. If she put him wrong, he jumped it wrong. But, bless his heart again, he jumped it. No running out for that guy.

Did you click on her Open Jumping class? He smeared the second and third fences and then jumped the moon the rest of the class. The jumps were 3'3" max on that course, they were 2'9" max on the working hunter link I posted.

Wing actually tried so hard in teh open class that he reinjured his stifle and is pretty much a pasture ornament now. It is a true shame because he seemed to like jumping and was really, really good at it. And he was a 'safe' jumper. Put him to it, and over it he went. And Mamie said he landed really nice, just kinda caught her on the other side of the fence and took her w/him.

*sigh* Oh well. Til not to be. Back to the story.



LaraNSpeedy,

No, she can't do a walk/trot. It's not offered. :( But even if it were offered we would opt not to do it 'cause you can't cross over into any of the cantered classes (even flat ones) if you do.

We went to teh arena and set up a course today. Hmmmm, I'm glad we did. She got totally conused in her courtesy circle and just could not find her line to the first fence even. Oh my.

We worked through it though and the last thing we did went really well, except for one fence. I said something and they ran out (I say 'they' cause it's not the horse. He'll jump if she puts him straight to it, but he'll bug out if she wavers). Anyway, they ran out, and then approached, and then ran out, and I told her 'focus'. She did... and boy they cleared that fence soooo nicely, finished the course, and looked mighty good doing it! Very nice indeed. I was majorly proud that she held it together and PUT it together and got him over that fence and finished.

If she does that well tomorrow she should be just fine. But, if she gets flustered... well, we'll just cross that bridge when we get to it.

Thanks again to everyone for all your thoughts. She understand that a circle is a refusal, and there were times that she needed to, say, make a right turn to get to the next fence, he was strong, she was regrouping and in the doing of it he make a small left turn. They got going to the next fence, but would that constitute 'off course'? I'm thinking yes it would.

I may not say anything 'cause it's just one more thing to clog her brain... :) <g>

It will be what it will be. I'll post the results for ya'll Monday... won't be back til then.

Thanks again and again and again. ciao. sylvia

[arena run]

Oh hey... I know why he was so good at those turns. :) He was a 2D barrel horse in a previous life. ;) And Mamie is a speed event person (after I drilled dressage and equitation into her for 7 years before I let her run at speed). :D

[fourmares]

The way to know if you jump the first fence again or not is that the combination SHOULD be numbered A and B. As in fence #4A, 4B and 4C... of course this is 4-H and from what I have seen there is a good chance they'll get it wrong. I went to the California 4H Championship show... and the jumping I saw was seriously dangerous. The jumper courses were dangerous and encouraged the kids to run as fast as they could instead of encouraging them to take tighter turns... it was truely amazing that no one was killed out there. I actually went and complained to the show management about the course and was told that it's "only 4-H"... same thing that parents said when I told them that the courses were dangerous. "It's only 4-H"... I actually scolded a few of them regarding their crappy attitude. How's it supposed to get better if no one gives a shit? And how do you expect your kid to be proud of their accomplishments if you think of it as something crappy and not worth doing right?

[arena run]

Well, didn't get a chance to put any of the advice to use. Horse refused 3 times on the first fence. Which isn't surprising 'cause it was his first time out in an arena w/jumps, and was the rider's first time out in an arena to jump competitively. And one could barely call it a refusal since he never even came w/in 10 ' of the jump! :)

To be honest... the little horse was actually doing what the rider told him to do. Granted, he was a bit looky, but it seemed that she was allowing him to veer away, not even trying to keep him on track.

He didn't jump anything in the warm up time out in the arena, but was going over the jump pretty well in the practice pen... it was just a bit too much for either of them out in the arena.



BTW, they got rid of that 'outside line' w/the in and out. First time in 8 years it hasn't been there! I was glad, too. The jump course looked much easier to me. And they started w/different fences for each class this year, too. Last year they started w/the same fence for every class... and it totally got Mamie's gelding and he had quit thinking by the third class... just going on his 'past experience' w/the fence height. That got them into trouble on the second and third fences which had been set up 3".

[Haalter]

Sylvia, that's too bad. Hopefully it wasn't too terrifying an experience for kid or pony. Maybe the kid's interest lies in 4H and not jumping per se, but for a kid who wants to jump, trying a H/J schooling show or even a USEF rated show might offer a more positive experience. These days, there are almost always crossrail level classes available for beginners, and at most shows, the kids are allowed to warm up in the actual show ring the day (or even early morning) before the show starts. Again, seems backwards to me that at the shows where the kids/horses are the least experienced, they are given tasks far more difficult that what the bigger shows offer!

[arena run]

I totally agree. I wish the novice class were cross rails w/the outside of the rails only a foot or so off the ground, making the center of the 'x' very, VERY low to the ground. It would get them out in the arena w/very likely no chance of a refusal. It would get them around the course and get them real 'in the ring' experience instead of refusal experience.

Oh well. sylvia

To be totally honest... the first fence was right at the 2' mark. Just way too high for a first jump, imo. THe course designers weren't doing it for the novice class to be sure.

[enjoytheride]

The horse in the video is doing jumpers right? It's moving a lot faster then it should for hunters. Very different from a hunter type class.

If you think the horse is going to refuse 3 times then don't let them in the ring, by letting them go in unprepared, stop 3 times, then leave you are teaching the horse bad habits and will hurt the rider's confidence. A properly trained horse and a schooled rider should handle their first course well, I don't agree that a green horse will always stop in his first over fences show.

[arena run]

The horse in the video is doing jumpers right? It's moving a lot faster then it should for hunters. Very different from a hunter type class.

If you think the horse is going to refuse 3 times then don't let them in the ring, by letting them go in unprepared, stop 3 times, then leave you are teaching the horse bad habits and will hurt the rider's confidence. A properly trained horse and a schooled rider should handle their first course well, I don't agree that a green horse will always stop in his first over fences show.


Video:
If you read the description of the video it says very plainly that the class is 'working hunter'. There is another video titled 'open jumping' where the horse comes in exactly the same, knocks down 2 fences, and then commences to jump the moon. Yes... he's going a bit fast, he's G-R-E-E-N to jumping anything, but he still won the class. Thus the comment about the level of competition. Duh. ;)


Refusing Horse:
The horse had been jumping really nice in our practice time. It was the RIDER who allowed him to run out 3 times at the first fence. I believe he would have jumped it if she had kept him straight to the fence. Once jumping, he would have been fine. ALTHOUGH... I could tell going in for their courtesy circle they weren't going to jump even the first fence. Horse was rubber necking and rider was allowing it.

Most certainly this isn't a "properly" trained horse... and while the rider is somewhat schooled, she is very green in competition. I can understand the strict enforcement of 'wait til they're ready' BUT... how can one be ready if one never gets the chance to get out there? This horse is likely never going to jump again any way and this child might have learned something from it - and I believe she did. Horse did fantastically the next day in flat equitation. She said, "He did well".

"No", I said. "When he does well you can take the credit. When he does poorly, you should take the blame. That's the type horse he is." She hung her head and nodded agreement. (Edited to note: I won't relate her opinion of the same horse immediately following the 3 refusals. Suffice it to say I took her off the horse and we had a little 'talk'. Included in the talk was the fact (relayed for the umpteenth time) that this horse is a direct reflection of his rider.)

This horse works almost totally from rider focus. He is not automatic. She lost focus, he didn't jump.

I can understand what you're saying, but I don't agree w/it in this case. sylvia

[rabicon]

I see what enjoythe ride is saying though. She had a bad experience in her first show and that may now turn her off a little to it. You want a kid in their first show to go out and do well. Maybe not win but do well. My daughter did her first dressage test the other day and got last place with a 47. Really bad score but she has never shown and is only 8 so horse is not round etc... with her but he packed her around and she had a blast. No she didn't win and she didn't care but she got a pretty ribbon and was happy that she made it thru the whole test without major issues. I agree the horse not being auto and the rider being green is not a good match for training pony to jump and show. Then blaming her for the mistakes is not fair when she nor the pony were ready for it. Yes if she is a competent rider and can handle the pony and she let this happen then okay I see but you have said before that she lets him do this even at home schooling so IMO she was not ready and blaming her for it is not going to help her. I hate to say it but you can't blame her or the pony for this problem, and I know your not the "trainer" but the only person to blame would be whomever said she should go and try a 2' division at a show when she should really only be doing maybe xrails. Thats JMO and I'm not trying to be mean but just saying what I believe. ;)

BTW the horse in the video is a nice jumper but was way to quick for the hunters, but I see what your saying the competition is like if he won a working hunter class with that round.

[enjoytheride]

I think Rabicon gets where I am coming from. Hunters is about sweepy turns not quick turns.

As far as the kid, it takes 3 to tango. It takes a competent trainer to set up the child for a good first experience, a suitable horse, and a kid that works hard.

You get ready at home, you work that forward and the jump everything I say so at home so it isn't a question for the horse. You work the equitation so the rider sits right. You work the flatwork skills so the rider can get the horse straight. if everything is going gangbusters at home then the kid has the skills necessary to deal with a rubbernecking horse. They have the skills necessary to maintain forward, and the horse has seen and experienced jumps at home that set him up for success.

You don't tell the kid it's all their fault if something goes wrong. You discuss how the rider could have ridden differently provided that the horse is schooled correctly in the first place. It sounds like the horse was not ready and the rider did not have the skills necessary. That isn't the poor kid's fault. That's the fault of whomever thought it was a good idea to send them in if they didn't stand a chance.

[arena run]

Whoa up there, folks.

Not saying it was the kid's 'fault'... but she lost focus. Her horse is not going to pack her around after she loses focus. He did wonderfully for her in the flat eq class... did you read that? She praised him... I said, "Nope.... it was you who was focused in that class and got him going straight."

She condemns him for not jumping... I said, "Nope.... it was you who was not focused in that class and let him slide out."

As for doing it like 'gangbusters' at home and it should run the same at a show... geesh. <lol> Are ya'll sure you're reading the same board I am? How many posts are there about "my horse does wonderfully at home and at the show I just loose it and we bomb out"??

I'd say tons.

What's the general accepted answer for this? Keep showing. Keep going to the shows, learn to deal w/the atmosphere, and you'll do better.

Goodness. It can't be both ways you know. This kid did a great job the last time we practiced this show. She lost her focus in the middle of the course, regained it, and finished really nicely. She was as ready as she was gonna get for a real show.

The PROBLEM>>>MMMMMM>>>> (that I've already said) is that there IS NOTHING ELSE OFFERED. This is pretty much it for around here. The novice class should be cross rails, not 2' fences. Maybe it will change this next year. Maybe not. I'm not in charge of it, all I can do is voice my opinion at the show planning meeting, which I will most certainly do.

I'm not at fault here. The kid isn't at fault here. She lost focus and threw a little fit and blamed the horse. I will NOT stand for that, thankyouverymuch. sylvia

[enjoytheride]

Actually I do understand having gone to several horse shows last year and hardly made it around. It was scary, it was dangerous, and it was really frustrating for me and my horse. The solution was not more horse shows, the solution was a new trainer that taught better lessons at home and had better coaching at shows. It was the work at home that made the shows better. The difference in my showing is a million times better thanks to that better coaching at home.

[arena run]

Actually I do understand having gone to several horse shows last year and hardly made it around. It was scary, it was dangerous, and it was really frustrating for me and my horse. The solution was not more horse shows, the solution was a new trainer that taught better lessons at home and had better coaching at shows. It was the work at home that made the shows better. The difference in my showing is a million times better thanks to that better coaching at home.

Totally agree w/this one seeing as how I'm not this girl's normal 'coach'. She recently (as in 2 months ago) moved to a new trainer. I was fairly shocked at what this girl didn't know about riding in general, jumping in specific, and horse care/handling overall. I spent one week w/her about 3 weeks ago, and 4 days w/her leading up to the show last Thursday and Friday. She had been taking riding lessons w/the former trainer for 5 years. If she had been taking riding lessons for 5 years w/ME... she would have gotten that horse over the course. ;) sylvia

[shawneeAcres]

Totally agree w/this one seeing as how I'm not this girl's normal 'coach'. She recently (as in 2 months ago) moved to a new trainer. I was fairly shocked at what this girl didn't know about riding in general, jumping in specific, and horse care/handling overall. I spent one week w/her about 3 weeks ago, and 4 days w/her leading up to the show last Thursday and Friday. She had been taking riding lessons w/the former trainer for 5 years. If she had been taking riding lessons for 5 years w/ME... she would have gotten that horse over the course. ;) sylvia

I haven't read this entire thread but the first page and now this last bit. I ASSUMED you were a mom with the questions you are asking but now it seems you are the "trainer". Any trainer SHOULD know the answers to the SIMPLE questions you asked at the beginning. SO I question your ability to properly coach this rider in over fences classes. With this "blind leading the blind" I think this rider SHOULD NOT be attempting to jump her horse at all, and definitely not at a show, this is an accident waiting to happen. If this child wishes to show over fences then 1) she needs an appropriate trainer for her SAFETY 2) she needs to be getting mileage over schooling shows during the year not jsut stuck in what is probably a big show for her and told to jump a course of fences that she is NOT prepared to do!! My kids show "4-H" but around here it is VERY VERY competitve and the entries in most of the classes could compete at "A" shows. It may not be that way where you are but accidents CAN and DO happen over 2' fences and it sounds liek this is a recipe for disaster. I think the horse is being done a big disservice as well in this case. Please reexamine your goals for this child in light of the current situation!!

[Giddy-up]

Totally agree w/this one seeing as how I'm not this girl's normal 'coach'. She recently (as in 2 months ago) moved to a new trainer. I was fairly shocked at what this girl didn't know about riding in general, jumping in specific, and horse care/handling overall. I spent one week w/her about 3 weeks ago, and 4 days w/her leading up to the show last Thursday and Friday. She had been taking riding lessons w/the former trainer for 5 years. If she had been taking riding lessons for 5 years w/ME... she would have gotten that horse over the course. ;) sylvia

If she has a trainer, why wasn't that trainer at the show with her? How did you get involved if she's not your regular student? :confused:

[arena run]

I haven't read this entire thread but the first page and now this last bit. I ASSUMED you were a mom with the questions you are asking but now it seems you are the "trainer". Any trainer SHOULD know the answers to the SIMPLE questions you asked at the beginning. SO I question your ability to properly coach this rider in over fences classes. With this "blind leading the blind" I think this rider SHOULD NOT be attempting to jump her horse at all, and definitely not at a show, this is an accident waiting to happen. If this child wishes to show over fences then 1) she needs an appropriate trainer for her SAFETY 2) she needs to be getting mileage over schooling shows during the year not jsut stuck in what is probably a big show for her and told to jump a course of fences that she is NOT prepared to do!! My kids show "4-H" but around here it is VERY VERY competitve and the entries in most of the classes could compete at "A" shows. It may not be that way where you are but accidents CAN and DO happen over 2' fences and it sounds liek this is a recipe for disaster. I think the horse is being done a big disservice as well in this case. Please reexamine your goals for this child in light of the current situation!!

Well, Shawnee, while technically I might be the 'trainer' because I am not kin to this child... basically I am more of the 'mom' status. I was doing a favor for this guy and his granddaughter.

I have two other 'students' who jump. One is my daughter and one is my niece. Daughter is in the video and niece wants to jump next year, if we can find a good horse for her. Niece, btw, is a very nice jumper so far, and can get her horse (who is a stopper if you don't ride him correctly) over the jumps pretty easily.

So... yeah. I'm a mom. Maybe you should have read all the posts? :) We jump once a year, at the State Horse Show. It's not our life's blood, it's just for fun -- 'cause jumping is a WHOLE lot of fun - IF you have a good attitude about it.

The child that is the focus of this thread has had horse lessons for 5 years, and has been jumping now for a good while. Only up to 18", but the way the horse jumps (even I could ride him over jumps) I was figuring it would be 'not out of the question' to get her into a jumping class seeing as how she was gonna be there anyway w/the flat equitation.

Geesh. I didn't send her out there w/zero capabilities. Her nerves got in the way and the refusal consisted of a big, swooping circle at the start of the jump.

I have seen, and heard, of much worse jumping from the accredited trainers. I am, from what I've seen of some of the others out there, more safety-minded than they are. One of the trainers told me last year that I was teaching Mamie's horse to refuse (if you knew this horse that is laughable in and of itself)... her reason? Mamie was jumping X jump but veering off of Y jump. Hmmmm, if she had only looked at the pattern she would have seen that it was required to jump X but not Y. When I told her it was in the pattern she said, "Oh, I don't look at the pattern until right before the class."

Good plan, that one. <g>

I do understand that I am not a 'jumping trainer', but I can certainly help out a child who has the basics under control and who just needs some encouragement and 'attitude' guidance. I also understand that I don't know the 'ins and outs' of the rules for jumping and thus I came on here and asked the 'stupid' questions instead of heading out into the arena not knowing.

[Giddy-up]

basically I am more of the 'mom' status. I was doing a favor for this guy and his granddaughter.

I have two other 'students' who jump. One is my daughter and one is my niece. Daughter is in the video and niece wants to jump next year, if we can find a good horse for her. Niece, btw, is a very nice jumper so far, and can get her horse (who is a stopper if you don't ride him correctly) over the jumps pretty easily.

ahhh....this explains it. You were going to the show with your riders & this rider just tagged along. Gotcha now. :) And in those deals--you can only work with what you are given. If the rider isn't prepared by their regular trainer, not much you can do 5 minutes prior to walking in the show ring.

[arena run]

LOL You almost have it. :D

Daughter is away for the summer and niece is getting prepared to jump next year. I was, pretty much, only at the jumping portion of the show for this 'non-kin' child... but yes... pretty much I had only 2 weeks, interspersed through out June and July, w/her.

[shawneeAcres]

LOL You almost have it. :D

Daughter is away for the summer and niece is getting prepared to jump next year. I was, pretty much, only at the jumping portion of the show for this 'non-kin' child... but yes... pretty much I had only 2 weeks, interspersed through out June and July, w/her.

Well sorry if my assumptions were a bit wrong, however, i still think doing ONE jumping show a year "for fun" is setting horse and rider up for failure. I would never ask a kid to do that, or allow one to for that matter, even at 18". Just my SNT opinion, mind you!

[HiddenAcres]

Thanks Four H Mom for helping them. I'm sure you made her summer by working with her and I'm sure the Grandpa really appreciates it. You're a gem and a saint and God bless you and all the others out there who volunteer and help a horse and/or kid out. Learning courses - be they jumping, trail, dressage or equitation tests - really helps out anyone with sequencing, impulse or attention deficit issues. It's also a lot of fun, modeling
good neigbor and "leadership" skills. 14 isn't too old to "gallop" the course without being on the horse, and sometimes that's silly enough to really help with focus. Have fun - you're building life skills and memories. Go get em next year!

[arena run]

Well sorry if my assumptions were a bit wrong, however, i still think doing ONE jumping show a year "for fun" is setting horse and rider up for failure. I would never ask a kid to do that, or allow one to for that matter, even at 18". Just my SNT opinion, mind you!

LOL I totally understand your viewpoint, and I get exactly where you're coming from on this. I will just say that the 'one' jumping show a year we've gone to, for the past 8 years, qualified my daughter for regional competition twice. We actually got to go last year - to Virginia. That trip is a lifetime memory for her, and well worth (in my mind) all the headaches of jumping in a show only once a year.

We set jumps up periodically in the arena and plan to do a (please excuse me if you're from the South, too) Redneck version of the cross country phase of a 3-day event this October. It's a series of jumps set up in hay fields and a corn field. ;) Went to it last year, sans horses, and won't make that mistake again this year. Surely... SURELY I can get Chappy over the 12" side of the fences! :) It looked like great fun for sure.

In the spring there's the 'rest of the event'. <lol> The dressage and show jumping portions. Plan to do that, too. Only problem is I'm gonna be showing against -- weellllll -- against 6yo's! ('cause I don't do 2'6"!)

That's what it is in Neshoba County Rural America though. We can sho' chase a set of cans around here though. sylvia

[shawneeAcres]

LOL I totally understand your viewpoint, and I get exactly where you're coming from on this. I will just say that the 'one' jumping show a year we've gone to, for the past 8 years, qualified my daughter for regional competition twice. We actually got to go last year - to Virginia. That trip is a lifetime memory for her, and well worth (in my mind) all the headaches of jumping in a show only once a year.

We set jumps up periodically in the arena and plan to do a (please excuse me if you're from the South, too) Redneck version of the cross country phase of a 3-day event this October. It's a series of jumps set up in hay fields and a corn field. ;) Went to it last year, sans horses, and won't make that mistake again this year. Surely... SURELY I can get Chappy over the 12" side of the fences! :) It looked like great fun for sure.

In the spring there's the 'rest of the event'. <lol> The dressage and show jumping portions. Plan to do that, too. Only problem is I'm gonna be showing against -- weellllll -- against 6yo's! ('cause I don't do 2'6"!)

That's what it is in Neshoba County Rural America though. We can sho' chase a set of cans around here though. sylvia

I am all for having fun, but it does bother me that someone jumping a novice 18" course would qualify to go to regionals as when you get there they jumps are NOT 18". Now maybe I don't know the "whole story" maybe she qualified on the flat which is great. But all too often I see kids qualifying over fences to get to state and regionals and then getting there and having a HUGE trainwreck, as once you get to that level (at least around here) the jumps are set at the nax height, which is 3' for jr riders and 3'3" for seniors (on horses that is, obviosuly ponies are less). I just hate to see the ill prepared kids going in and getting hurt. It happened at our state show last week, a child showing shrot stirrup, who really should not have been jumping (and even adults with her club were saying so). the horse propped the fence badly after almost stopping and she took a fall. The show was held up for over 30 minute snad now she has to have surgery and pins in her wrist, and all because she "Qualified" to go to state, but honestly had no business even doing the 2' fences for short stirrup. That is my point, Please understand. Yes we have FUN at state, my kid on her strictly english appendix mare did the versatility, and did the western pleasure and barrels on her! It was a hoot, but she is 16 years old and a very good rider, nothing she did was dangerous. I just hate to see kids getting hurt and discouraged when they are overfaced. When we show I like my kids to be doing 3" higher fences at home than they are currently showing over.

[arena run]

Ya'll really should read. ;)

We jump once a year at the 4H state show. Anyone can enter if they are a member of 4H and ride a horse. The regional show is held 2 weeks later and you have to qualify here, at the state show, to advance. Four jumping classes are offered: Working Hunter, Equitation over Fences, Open Jumping and Novice Working Hunter.... Novice class DOES NOT ADVANCE.

17yo Daughter - Jumping for 8 years (once a year in competition) - 3 years in novice (no chance of advancement to regional, and actually was whistled out of the arena for refusals the first two years. Got second place the 3rd year), 5 years in 'regular' classes (advanced to regional twice) - last year jumped 3' and 3'6" on 15.2h appendix - in video - qualified, and attended regional in working hunter -AND- two years ago jumped 2'6" - 3' on 14.2h arabian - qualified, and didn't get to attend, regional competition in equitation over fences.

15yo Niece - not jumping in competition yet - jumping aforementioned 14.2h arabian over 12" and 18" courses w/ease - form is improving - has been jumping logs, very small cross rails, and such what for the past 3 years.

14yo Non-Kin - jumping for 'I don't know how long' in lessons in another state - stayed w/me for a week working on flat class - stayed w/me 4 days working on jumping - horse is green - she has excellent form but is green to 'showing' - horse refused 3 times at first fence. (which was, btw, a 2' vertical and WAY not a good first fence. Class should be, imo, a low cross rail... and will be discussed at the show planning meeting in September).

[maggyjazzz]

DIFFERENT VIEWS ON TRAINERS & BARNS ALSO EXPERIENCES ARE WHAT A FORUM IS ALL ABOUT, I'M SURE HIDDEN KNOLL & JILL ARE A GOOD FIT FOR SOME PEOPLE. JUST NOT EVERYONE. NO AGENDA HERE JUST A DIFFERENT OPINION.

[RioTex]

But a horse can walk over a 2' vertical... If there is a triple in the ring, a 2' verical should be the least of the concern.

[arena run]

Walk???? <lol> These aren't 17h horses. This is a 15.0h 'hony'. He can't walk a 2' vertical. The 14.2h arabian (pony) did trot over (ie, no jump to speak of) an 18" the other day... but he's been doing this now for 8 years and is rather blase' about it all. LOL

As for being able to jump a 'triple'... that's kinda the whole thing. Not many of these novice kids are ready for an in and out or any type combination. They need something really, really, really easy. Basically an introduction to jumping type course.

Ya'll, as usual, are a wealth of information and have given me tons to think about for the show planning meeting. I will really push for a cross rail couse set up for SUCCESS.... even if they have to add a class, maybe they'll see the need for it. Thanks again for all the input.

[rabicon]

fourh mom I understand she had a different trainer and you were just helping, my whole point was it sounded like you were telling her it was her fault and its really not. It's the trainers fault that she is not prepared and you said that she has these problems at home so I said it is part your fault for letting her go in there not prepared to do so. I'm not trying to be mean and attack you I'm just saying from all your post this is what I get. Flat classes is one thing and I'm glad she did great but those are much easier than taking a pony/rider over a course of jumps that they are just not prepared for.

"She has some problems w/her focus out there and her horse is green to jumping but willing and capable if she can hold herself together. They'll be fine for the little class they're entered in Thursday..." This should tell you if she can't hold her focus at home then more than likely its not going to happen at a show. She should be able to focus completly at home before entering a show.

"Her getting out there and attempting this w/an honest horse who doesn't know a jump from a blade of grass is, to me, quite an act of bravery and is ripe w/learning potential." Also not good because she is not a competent enough rider to handle such a green horse. Just because she wants to do someone sometimes needs to stand up and say no.[/B] Another clue that she hasn't jumped as much as you thought or had not been trained properly and its not going to come in a weeks period.

Yes, he does have his own 'eye'. He had to, 'cause we sure didn't know how to help him find his own distances! This is just scary when you have your daughter jumping 3' and over. She should be able to find her distance at this height and if not then pray to god she doesn't get seriously hurt. Yes we can miss a distance but to jump that high and have no clue is scary!!!

"She got totally conused in her courtesy circle and just could not find her line to the first fence even. Oh my." Another hint that she is NOT ready for this.

I'm not trying to be mean but you keep saying for us to read. Believe me I read all of the post and was very scared for the child from the get go but kept my mouth shut because welllll you said you didn't want comments on if she was ready or not. Now that things went bad and you somewhat blamed her I have to stand up and say no its not her fault she was not ready and these are little hints above to prove that.

[arena run]

Your comments on my quoted portions are about two different girls.

Yes, one could take that as 'sounding' like I was telling her it was her fault... and yet, that is not the case. I did not blame the rider. I told her to stop blaming the horse and to take some 'rider responsibility'. :) We discussed refusals the their very real possibility before hand. I suggested scratching for various and sundry reasons. She said she wanted to go on in the class. So... I let her. Against my better judgement... but I do think she learned something.


I tried to sound 'non defensive' in this next part... but I don't think I achieved it too well. <g> This is my little girl after all.....
My daughter, Mamie, (girl 'two') spent 3 years jumping the novice level jumps before doing the 3' stuff. One can barrel race w/out understanding all the intricacies of pockets and how they're formed and their different shapes... might hit a couple of barrels, will certainly lose some time, and will most likely not win unless the competition is fairly 'scarce'. But you can still go out and have a good time in the speed events. If the horse is honest and tries and has a nice jump, it is altogether possible to jump a 2'6" - 3' course w/out counting strides and knowing distances. It took 7 years of hard work and much sweat and many tears to get to the point of doing that "up to 3'" course last year. And I am dang proud of Mamie and her accomplishments and that she wasn't scared to get out there and do it. sylvia

[arena run]

And Mamie had a great attitude (aside from a few minor mother/daughter skirmishes) about the whole thing. She did not blame the horse... she understood her role in it all, refusals and everything... she was ready to try again... she didn't throw any fits.

Well, let me say the only fit she DID throw was due to the heat and having to wear two long-sleeves. <g> sylvia

[shawneeAcres]

Well there is a lot of difference in your 4-H and ours in NC. In most counties you MSUT show at the county show toi advance to district. Then you MUST qualify at district to get to State. Not every 4-Her can go to state. Obviosuly your daughter is jumpinga bit more advanced level fences than I had understood. And I do not know your daughter at all. this is a GENERAL OBSERVATION I am making. I was at regionals in lexington, VA, it was TOUGH there, the courses were HARD, the fences were BIG and many top riders didn't make it around. I saw a LOT of kids that shouldn;t have been there jumping, they were VERY VERY scary, some didn't make it around, some did, but how they did I do not know. They were TOTALLY unprepared. At least the kids from our state have to go thru a process of qualifying up the ladder, but STILL we have those same riders showing up at state all too often. My point is that one really should not be jumping 3', much less showing if the rider is unable to count strides and judge a distance. There is not much margin for error at that height of fence. 2' is entirely a different thing but still and unprepared rider/horse shouldn't be doing that height at a show either. I know for a fact that at regionals there were no 2' fences (except maybe the small ponies). Basically that is all I ahve to say regarding this., I am VERY well versed in 4-H have been doing it for many years and been to several regional shows and KNOW how tough they are. I am glad your daughter got to regionals last year, glad she had a good experience of a lifetime and hoepfully she had good SAFE rounds. But I urge you to recosnider how "prepared" your riders are before a serious accident occurs.

[rabicon]

Your statement scares me. I know that was about your daughter btw and not this rider. She is a nice rider and capable but could be much safer if she understood everything about jumping not just position and flying around. The open jumper, he knocked the rails because he was drove into the jump and she didn't know how to bring him thru the line, this is why he knocked the jump, not the height issue. She almost had a few more down because he was to deep but like you said he's a good soul and tried his heart out for her. Look at the last jump, he took a studder step right before take off because he wasn't getting a clear signal from his rider to jump she was just driving to the base. Do you think its fair for the horse to be pushed to a base of a jump constantly at 3'??? Not really, a rider should be competent in riding lines before that time comes. Like I said she's got a nice position but jumping is more than just position. Also barrel racing and jumping are so different in the danger aspect. Anyone can go out and run a barrel on their horse, heck most do it for fun and change. The worse thing to worry about is the horse slipping and falling which does happen. I use to barrel race also. But would you put your daughter on a true hot hot barrel horse and tell her to go run a barrel pattern on him without understanding how to do it. Without understand how to pick their shoulder up and help them balance thru the turn?? Or how to rate him before the turn?? I would hope not or one day that horse is going to fall on her. Just like this, one day your luck will run out and the horse is going to take off to long at an oxer and land on it or take off and not be able to get their legs up (like what almost happened in the jumper video at the 2nd fence he knocked) and throw her off or at worse a rotational fall.

[shawneeAcres]

I jsut watched the video, the hrose is cute, rider is pretty good. But there is a lot more she could learn and help the horse out more, as she is just basically steering him to the jumps. I will say however, that here is an example of what I mean by not being prepared. A state show should not have a course of plain rails at 2'9" for seniors. The regionals and have REALLY fences with flowers, rolltops, panels etc and they ARE set at 3'3". That is a HUGE JUMP for most of these kids to make! Oh well, off my soapbox.

[arena run]

Your statement scares me. I know that was about your daughter btw and not this rider. She is a nice rider and capable but could be much safer if she understood everything about jumping not just position and flying around. The open jumper, he knocked the rails because he was drove into the jump and she didn't know how to bring him thru the line, this is why he knocked the jump, not the height issue. She almost had a few more down because he was to deep but like you said he's a good soul and tried his heart out for her. Look at the last jump, he took a studder step right before take off because he wasn't getting a clear signal from his rider to jump she was just driving to the base. Do you think its fair for the horse to be pushed to a base of a jump constantly at 3'??? Not really, a rider should be competent in riding lines before that time comes. Like I said she's got a nice position but jumping is more than just position. Also barrel racing and jumping are so different in the danger aspect. Anyone can go out and run a barrel on their horse, heck most do it for fun and change. The worse thing to worry about is the horse slipping and falling which does happen. I use to barrel race also. But would you put your daughter on a true hot hot barrel horse and tell her to go run a barrel pattern on him without understanding how to do it. Without understand how to pick their shoulder up and help them balance thru the turn?? Or how to rate him before the turn?? I would hope not or one day that horse is going to fall on her. Just like this, one day your luck will run out and the horse is going to take off to long at an oxer and land on it or take off and not be able to get their legs up (like what almost happened in the jumper video at the 2nd fence he knocked) and throw her off or at worse a rotational fall.

Yes. Everything you say is very true. That open jumping class was about 3" higher than either of them probably should have been doing.

And no... it's not fair for Wing to have been pushed, and yes I saw the stutter step, and yes he is a super good soul. He doesn't even know he can refuse, bless his heart. And heck no... I would not put her on a 1D horse w/out her knowing the the rating and balance and picking up shoulders and everything that goes with making safe turns.

That's why she was on Wing. He is as honest a horse as I've seen. I did get her a 'real live' jumping horse once. Oh - my - goodness. Never again will I do something like that. We will take the known evil over the unknown evil any day. Rearing, unsafe jump form, dirty refusals. Not a good thing at ALL. THAT is, again, why I allowed her to do this on WING. He took her over those fences regardless. And if we are going to jump, we are going to have to jump the courses they set up.

We parents did try to get the fences lowered for this year but no one wanted to do it 'cause "they (the kids) have to be prepared for regionals". And this is true. HOWEVER... maybe, mayyyybe we can stick 2 or 3 other classes in there for the bigger horses whose riders can't jump 3' but yet want to have the option of jumping in more than one class. That's one reason Mamie was in those three classes. 3 Opportunities rather than just one.

The whole organization of the jumping stuff could be much better. It is what it is for the time being, though.

[arena run]

Shawnee, no one wants to take the time to set up jump courses at the district level.

We discussed that last week. That we, as parents and volunteers, should just MAKE a day at district to set up some fences and let the kids jump them. Each county could be responsible for two jumps... that would make at least 6, if not the full 8. It would be something at least.

Hopefully we can do that. We did get the drill team started and this past year there was even talk of having them judged. It would take a lot of work, to have jumping at the district level, but it would be worth it.

PS... the district jumping wouldn't be 'qualifying'... it would be considered practice and all kids would advance to state. That's just how it would be for now.

[Carolinadreamin']

Not every 4-Her can go to state.

Yep, and that is why at regionals some of those kids from other states (where anyone can come to the state show) look like they only jump once/year. We tried 4H state show one year and never again. It is run (and judged) like an open show. Very little true hunter/jumpers show up, thus the trainwreck in any of the o/f classes. The pics from the show are always very telling. Scary stuff.

[shawneeAcres]

Yep, and that is why at regionals some of those kids from other states (where anyone can come to the state show) look like they only jump once/year. We tried 4H state show one year and never again. It is run (and judged) like an open show. Very little true hunter/jumpers show up, thus the trainwreck in any of the o/f classes. The pics from the show are always very telling. Scary stuff.

Then I feel even MORE fortunate to be in NC where at state we had 75 horses in the Senior class and I'd say all but maybe 10 looked nice enough to be showing rated!!

[arena run]

I jsut watched the video, the hrose is cute, rider is pretty good. But there is a lot more she could learn and help the horse out more, as she is just basically steering him to the jumps. I will say however, that here is an example of what I mean by not being prepared. A state show should not have a course of plain rails at 2'9" for seniors. The regionals and have REALLY fences with flowers, rolltops, panels etc and they ARE set at 3'3". That is a HUGE JUMP for most of these kids to make! Oh well, off my soapbox.


?? Not quite following here.

I do readily admit to being --- well, not intimidated... but certainly impressed w/the jumps at regional competition. The equitation pattern called for a 'trot fence'. Had NO idea one could be required to trot a fence in competition. Had no idea how to do it either. Do you continue trotting? Pick up the canter? <lol>

It was quite the learning experience to be sure. I'm glad we did it, but if ya'll think Wing's working hunter class was fast in that video... you should have seen the round he flew... um, I mean turned in at regionals.

Hicks from the South come 'Noth to jump w/the big dawgs. Yep, yep, yep. I resemble that remark. Admittedly. >G<

Must say, the management at that show could have learned a thing or two about setting up speed event alleys from us. sylvia

[enjoytheride]

but you don't HAVE to jump. If the course is unsafe, the horse is unready, and the rider does not have focus or enough lessons at home, you don't have to jump. You have the option of packing up and going home. WITHOUT the bad experience of a rider not getting over one fence and taking the blame. Riders should know about the strides, distances, corners, and leads. Getting around without these things can be done but having the know how is much more important. It isn't a cop out to count your strides, it's safer then point and pray.

Real jumping horses don't do all those unsafe things you experienced.

There have to be other options for you to show over fences in your location. Perhaps if you give your location people can point you to local trainers and small hunter shows. A trainer will show your child and the one you are mothering how to trot a fence in competition. And yes, a horse can WALK over 2 feet. I have seen horses WALK 3 feet and higher, it's a good exercise often used by eventers.

[arena run]

BTW, Shawnee... you were talking of the regionals in Virginia last year?

I was -- what's the word for this... /? -- flabberghasted at the open jumping course. It's like... the designers didn't even take into consideration the fact that some of these kids don't routinely ride A or AAA or whatever rated shows. I felt that the courses offered at regionals were as unsafe for the level riders as the novice course at our state show is for that level rider.

4-H should be about Home Grown Horses and the Kids Doing the Projects and Training and being presented w/classes that show THAT... not about who can spend the most money on the biggest horse and bnt. Those jump courses, imo, did not reflect the 4-H Kid's Project idea. Neither do some of the other classes, but that's a whole 'nuther thread.

[arena run]

There are some clubs who offer some jumping classes, they are 3 hours from here. And they, to be honest, are on some of the same days our local shows are. We choose to do the local shows for points.

But this is a new development. When we started having interest in jumping I did look up some trainers... and shows... and finally tracked down one show 2 hours from here who had one class w/one jump.

We don't want to give ourselves over to jumping and that riding style. It's a fun past time to practice to improve your horse and yourself. Mamie's first love is, and will most likely remain, reining and speed events. A plethora of those type shows are very handy to our location.

Didn't mean to open such a Pandora's box, I just had a few innocent questions regarding trotting on course and readdressing refused fences. *cowers in shame* :) sylvia

[arena run]

Then I feel even MORE fortunate to be in NC where at state we had 75 horses in the Senior class and I'd say all but maybe 10 looked nice enough to be showing rated!!

That's what I mean... we had less than 20 entered in COMBINED jr/sr classes. We should maybe think about only advancing those who make a certain score. OR... we should offer shorter fences (state and regional) for those who are less experienced. ?? Idk. It does seem to be a problem.

How can you tell folks, "You can't jump at all 'cause you suck when compared to 'us'." <smile> PLUS... the fact remains that even if you didn't qualify for a jumping class, you can still enter the jumping classes. That opens the door for anyone, whether they won a class or not. If they qualify that horse in any event, they can enter the jumping at regionals.

[arena run]

Enjoytheride, like... walk. Walk up to the fence, step over it w/the front, step over it w/the back?

3'???

And how tall were these horses? <lol> Had a pony, 12.1h, one time who 'walked' over a fallen tree. She bellied out. I had to help her off of it. When a horse bellies out on a jump pole, it falls, yes? <lol>

Just a weird picture here... Dancer, 14'2h (if that) arabian walking over 3'. I might have to go see what comes of that next time I set the jumps up.....

That would, no doubt, take it's own training skill sets. If Dancer walks up to something higher than his knee he jumps it automatically. <lol> sylvia

[Haalter]

Sylvia, I think you have to understand where most of the people on this BB are coming from: very structured and focused Hunter/Jumper programs. Before kids even attempt a crossrail in these programs, they are learning how to count strides and find distances over poles on the ground. Right or wrong, plenty of people who are hobby riders take years of showing and lessons to reach the 2'6" level. Depending who you are talking to, the preponderance of "itty bitty" divisions at the rated shows is either the best thing that ever happened to horse showing or the coming of the rapture.

It's funny because as recently as about 20-25 years ago, many rated shows didn't offer any classes with jumps below 3'. And a few years before that, it was hard to find a rated show with jumps below 3'6". It *is* possible to do that on a green horse, or as a green rider or on a lesson horse - my first experience was showing 3' on a school horse that wasn't nearly as nice or honest as the horse on your video, and I'm still alive :lol:

But before I digress any further into never-never land, some of these folks who may seem critical are of the point of view that even an entry level jumping class should require some degree of skill, competence and professional training. If I were to say, yeah I'm going to try flying this airplane, I don't have any experience or a pilot to teach me, but this lady I know knows a little bit about planes and she's going to help me out for a week before my first takeoff...It seems crazy, right? Luckily, unlike an airplane, a horse has the option to refuse before it leaves the ground. But the possibility of crashing is certainly still there.

I think you've opened a can of worms that will get a lot of differing opinions here, but I think everyone's bottom line is that showing even over low 2' jumps without more extensive training and prep is setting the kid and horse up for refusals at best, and serious injury at worst.

[Alterrain]

am I the only one totally confused by that "JUMPER" course? Why are fences 2 and 3 a "line"? and then after the next jump you have to cross your track to get to the next? And why 3 cones at the start and none at the finish?

[Alterrain]

also, my trainer routinely has us trot fences up to 3', (and if there is an EQ kid in the lesson) walk jumps up to 2'. My AA hunter does both easily, he is a 15.1 OTTB. And a girl that does pony EQ on a large does both also.

[enjoytheride]

Yes, walk. Just the same as trotting a fence (which you are confused about?). You walk the horse up to the fence and it jumps from the walk and lands in canter.

I'm perfectly fine with riders staying at 2 feet, heck I showed over crossrails a few weeks ago. I still think that those heights require a degree of skill, lord knows my round went smoother thanks to proper planning and sufficient lessons.

Those fancy jumper courses at your end of the year show aren't there for riders who are A show people. They are there for the people that travel outside 4h world and show even on the schooling level.

[Jumpingfool]

fourhmom, I admire your tenacity but it sounds like you are ill prepared to train students for this particular event. The most telling thing is you don't know how to trot a jump. Horses should trot lots and lots of jumps to learn how to jump and to learn not to rush. They learn to be straight, slow and push from behind by trotting lots and lots of jumps. Your daughter would benifit enormously from learning how to be slow and steady to the base of a trot jump.

As for walking jumps, horse should be able to both walk up to small (2') jumps and step over them, and walk up to a larger jump and jump it. My large ponies can step over a 2' jump, so your honie can do it too.

[TheOrangeOne]

Good friend of mine won regionals not last year but the year before. She bought her horse for 2500 out of a field, barely broke, trained it herself for 6 years, routinely kicks my butt at rated shows. One of us has a fancy warmblood and a BNT, and it's not her. ;) She wins at 4H and other shows because she has spent so much time working on this horse and getting to know her inside and out, she works hard, and she rides GREAT. I don't think it's fair to say the kids winning at those shows buy their way.

[arena run]

fourhmom, I admire your tenacity but it sounds like you are ill prepared to train students for this particular event. The most telling thing is you don't know how to trot a jump. Horses should trot lots and lots of jumps to learn how to jump and to learn not to rush. They learn to be straight, slow and push from behind by trotting lots and lots of jumps. Your daughter would benifit enormously from learning how to be slow and steady to the base of a trot jump.

As for walking jumps, horse should be able to both walk up to small (2') jumps and step over them, and walk up to a larger jump and jump it. My large ponies can step over a 2' jump, so your honie can do it too.


I believe it is beginning to be a 'turn of phrase' problem now.

I do know how to 'trot' a jump. I do know that you trot jumps to start a horse. Lots and lots and lots and LOOOTS of trotting jumps.

I was also told, at the state show, that trotting was not allowed in the classes. Being as how that's the only 'jumping show' I've ever been to and am under zero hunter/jumper influence outside of this forum... I'm thinking, "Gee. One doesn't 'trot' fences in competition."

See?

So... when confronted w/a "trot this fence" instruction in the equitation over fences class at regionals I'm saying to myself, "Self.. what the heck does this mean? Do we trot in and trot out? Trot in and canter out?" ???

See?????? THAT's what I mean about being confused by trotting a fence. Duhhhhm. Some of ya'll are taking the inches I'm giving and stretching it out to be a mile. :)

As for walking up to a 3' jump and going over... ?? Ok. Big confusion on that for sure. Won't they throw a jump that is mighty hard to ride over a 3' fence that they had to walk up to? Especially if they're 14.2h? Isn't there some sort of term for that? Propping? Something like that. That certainly took hold in my brain for some reason.. you don't jump from a standstill... and walking seems mighty close to a stand still. That's an interesting concept that I am pretty sure I won't be using, at least w/me on board. Of course, I, personally, would not be brave enough to even canter to a jump that was over 20". :) Big weiney that I am.

Btw, the first two years, all Mamie did was trot jumps on Dancer, and trotted the jumps on Wing for the first several months when she started riding him.

[arena run]

Good friend of mine won regionals not last year but the year before. She bought her horse for 2500 out of a field, barely broke, trained it herself for 6 years, routinely kicks my butt at rated shows. One of us has a fancy warmblood and a BNT, and it's not her. ;) She wins at 4H and other shows because she has spent so much time working on this horse and getting to know her inside and out, she works hard, and she rides GREAT. I don't think it's fair to say the kids winning at those shows buy their way.


You're right. That's not what I meant to say at all. Hard work is certainly needed what ever you do in life and has no substitute. Kudos to your friend for sticking w/her horse and showing you up! <lol> sylvia

[shawneeAcres]

BTW, Shawnee... you were talking of the regionals in Virginia last year?

I was -- what's the word for this... /? -- flabberghasted at the open jumping course. It's like... the designers didn't even take into consideration the fact that some of these kids don't routinely ride A or AAA or whatever rated shows. I felt that the courses offered at regionals were as unsafe for the level riders as the novice course at our state show is for that level rider.

4-H should be about Home Grown Horses and the Kids Doing the Projects and Training and being presented w/classes that show THAT... not about who can spend the most money on the biggest horse and bnt. Those jump courses, imo, did not reflect the 4-H Kid's Project idea. Neither do some of the other classes, but that's a whole 'nuther thread.

Yes was talking about regionals last year in Virginia. You have to understand that 4-H regionals IS a big deal here on the east coast. THis is SUPPOSED to be the BEST of the BEST, not "dummyed down" to the lowest common denominator. Sorry but that is true and how I feel about it. The jumper course was a GOOD jumper course, for the level of rider that was SUPPOSED to have qualified for it. The fault is not with regionals, it is with the localc rdistrict and state levels that do NOT follow the RULEBOOK (there is one you know!) for 4-H. My kids DON"T spend big money on made horses! My Senior rider this year bought a new horse with her OWN money she had saved last summer. SHe has COMPLETELY trained this mare who ahd never seen a jump to now doing 3'3". She placed in the top ten out of 75 horses in her state classes last week. She went to regionals last year and did an awesome job with her 17 yr old 15 hand mare. It is not always about the most money on made horses, at least not at my barn! But my kids could go to an A show and be competitive. We do NOT do the "A" shows at all, we OCCASIONALLY do "C" shows otherwise jsut local schooling show circuits, yet my kids compete jsut fine at that level of competition. I am sorry but if you go to regionals then EXPECT it to be tough, that is what is SHOULD be. SHould we not time the gaming classes so that the kids who can't afford a fast horse can still be competitive? That is basically what you are saying here about the hunter classes!

[shawneeAcres]

Here is link to regionals (i.e. national 4-H) horse rulebook for shows. Please note the jumper classes follow USEF rules (page 41) for Level III jumpers, with jumps to start at 3'6" not to exceed 4'0" following table II section 2(a) rules. The jumper course at Virginia 2008 regionals was well within this standard and was at the level expected of a level III jumper course by USEF.

http://www.animal.ufl.edu/Youth/horse/documents/RegionalRulebook.pdf

[Heineken]

I've read this thread all the way through and what upsets me the most is the point in which you fully admit to letting you 17 year old daughter ruin and lame her very kind and forgiving horse by overfacing it at a show that neither she nor the horse were prepared for. You are the reason 4H has a bad reputation in many places. If your daughter and the other riders who train with you aren't ready, and I mean REALLY ready, to jump around at the level they would need to for these shows then they shouldn't. I watched the video. It scared me. Seriously. Why on EARTH would you do that to that lovely, kind and obviously clueless horse? Good luck to you and your riders, I hope to god no one gets hurt. You and the students need lessons...it just isn't right to do to the horses or the kids.

Edited to add that by "lessons" I mean real ones, not advice from the COTH BB!

[arena run]

Here is link to regionals (i.e. national 4-H) horse rulebook for shows. Please note the jumper classes follow USEF rules (page 41) for Level III jumpers, with jumps to start at 3'6" not to exceed 4'0" following table II section 2(a) rules. The jumper course at Virginia 2008 regionals was well within this standard and was at the level expected of a level III jumper course by USEF.

http://www.animal.ufl.edu/Youth/horse/documents/RegionalRulebook.pdf

I scrutinized the rule book last year, and it's not really written the same as our state rules. The height of the jumps being one of the differences. I mean... a 4' jump w/a 4' spread is pretty advanced... and honestly, not something that any of the 4H'ers I saw jumping Thursday should be doing.

Not a single one of them that I saw jump could go into the regional arena that I saw set up in Virginia and do the course with authority and .... comfort? <lol> You know, that quality that causes the crowd to just sit back and watch as opposed to sitting on the edge of their seat and saying, "ooooh.....Ack!"

We have no county competition. No district competition in jumping. The state competition is good, for local quality. Our state excels in the speed events and probably western pleasure, not jumping. We --- jump in Mississippi, but I would say that we don't 'do' jumping. :) There's a subtle, but distinct, difference I suppose.

At any rate, I still totally appreciate all the feed back from this thread. It's been great. sylvia

[arena run]

Deleted response.

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Have a great day!

[shawneeAcres]

I scrutinized the rule book last year, and it's not really written the same as our state rules. The height of the jumps being one of the differences. I mean... a 4' jump w/a 4' spread is pretty advanced... and honestly, not something that any of the 4H'ers I saw jumping Thursday should be doing.

Not a single one of them that I saw jump could go into the regional arena that I saw set up in Virginia and do the course with authority and .... comfort? <lol> You know, that quality that causes the crowd to just sit back and watch as opposed to sitting on the edge of their seat and saying, "ooooh.....Ack!"

We have no county competition. No district competition in jumping. The state competition is good, for local quality. Our state excels in the speed events and probably western pleasure, not jumping. We --- jump in Mississippi, but I would say that we don't 'do' jumping. :) There's a subtle, but distinct, difference I suppose.

At any rate, I still totally appreciate all the feed back from this thread. It's been great. sylvia

Perhaps not at your state competition, but at ours there were many riders that easily could (and did!) go to Virginia and ride thru those courses, jumpers is not for the weak of heart. It would have been your fault for entering those classes if you "scrutinized" the rullebook and entered anyways. And I feel that your state organization should come more inline with the national rules OR don't advance your kids onto regionals. Again, don't expect the rules/courses to be easy jsut because your children aren't prepared. If you want your state competition to remain what it is, something for the kids on the backyard horses to compete in, then that is fine. But don't send them to regionals where they are probably not going to make it around.

[Jumpingfool]

I do know how to 'trot' a jump. I do know that you trot jumps to start a horse. Lots and lots and lots and LOOOTS of trotting jumps.

I was also told, at the state show, that trotting was not allowed in the classes. Being as how that's the only 'jumping show' I've ever been to and am under zero hunter/jumper influence outside of this forum... I'm thinking, "Gee. One doesn't 'trot' fences in competition."

See?

So... when confronted w/a "trot this fence" instruction in the equitation over fences class at regionals I'm saying to myself, "Self.. what the heck does this mean? Do we trot in and trot out? Trot in and canter out?" ???

Trotting is often part of a handy hunter class and is one of the tests in the equitation divisions. Trotting when you are not specifically requested to IS a big no no.

If you trotted lots of jumps before you know that jumping is the same as the canter stride so they should land cantering.

These are the types of things that lead me to believe this is not an event for which you should be training students. These are basic basic things and while coming here and asking these questions is a good thing for people who want to learn, anyone taking on the challenge of even casually helping someone for a particular event should know what training for the event entails.

As for walking up to a 3' jump and going over... ?? Ok. Big confusion on that for sure. Won't they throw a jump that is mighty hard to ride over a 3' fence that they had to walk up to? Especially if they're 14.2h? Isn't there some sort of term for that? Propping? Something like that. That certainly took hold in my brain for some reason.. you don't jump from a standstill... and walking seems mighty close to a stand still.

Once again, the idea that the walk to you is pretty close to a standstill tells me you lack that specific knowledge needed. A walk is an active forward gait with a lot of push from behind, just like any gait from which you would jump. If your horse is propping at a jump, it's a disobedience.

Admittedly, walking jumps is rarely called for and while the rules allow for a 3' walk jump, if a walk jump ever appeared on course it is sure to be a good bit smaller. The only time I have seen a walk jump at a horse show is for a Medal test.

[Haalter]

Admittedly, walking jumps is rarely called for and while the rules allow for a 3' walk jump, if a walk jump ever appeared on course it is sure to be a good bit smaller. The only time I have seen a walk jump at a horse show is for a Medal test.Check your rulebook. The current rulebook states that the maximum height and spread for a walk jump is 2'. It was 3' years ago, but no longer. It's part of Tests 1-19, EQ113-10.

Here's what I still don't get: The OP said that her kids jump once per year at this show. OP, why would you expect that the Regional or National finals should be tailored to someone who does this once per year?! Shouldn't a "finals" show be for the best of the best in that discipline, for whom this is their main event they practice for all year long? 3'6" jumpers is a realistic goal for even a $2,000 DIY OTTB and a committed kid with some training, doesn't have to be an expensive horse or a BNT. There is absolutely no reason that an event at Regional or National Finals should be dumbed down to the level of someone who jumps for a week at home, one show per year, and expects to dabble in this event. That would be like saying the National Finals for 4H barrel racing should be done at the trot so kids who only practice once a year can participate. I can't imagine you need a BNT or a $$$ horse to be competitive in 4H speed events, but you certainly need to be familiar with the discipline and practice, practice, practice if you want to be competitive (and safe!) on a national level, right?

I have trained kids in a zone that is not known for its strength in the Eq., much like what it sounds like trying to do 4H jumping in Mississippi. If the kids here want to do Medal/Maclay finals and not be way in over their heads, they either need to go show outside our zone to learn, or at the very least, practice at our area's shows using the 3'6" jumper division. It's too bad there's not more of an opportunity to participate in the big eq for the kids here, but that doesn't mean that the National Finals should be held at a lower level because some regions aren't as competitive. Even at the rated level, plenty of people opt out of finals they have qualified for because they or their coaches recognize that they don't have the training or the horse to be safe, let alone competitive, at Finals. Too bad, but c'est la vie. IMO, National Finals in *anything* is for the best in the country, not a feel-good contest where everybody goes home with a blue ribbon.

[rabicon]

fourh mom, just want to say sorry for having to be so harsh, I see you deleted some post and I don't want you to think we are just trying to be mean. We are trying to help you understand the danger that these kids are in esp. your daughter jumping these heights and not understanding the basics. Like I said she has a nice position and could probably go really far in the jumping world but she needs someone to teach her all the basics. We just don't want to see anyone get hurt. Good luck and I hope she does well in her speed events but I'd stay away from jumping 3' and over until she has a trainer that can really teach her.

[shawneeAcres]

Check your rulebook. The current rulebook states that the maximum height and spread for a walk jump is 2'. It was 3' years ago, but no longer. It's part of Tests 1-19, EQ113-10.

Here's what I still don't get: The OP said that her kids jump once per year at this show. OP, why would you expect that the Regional or National finals should be tailored to someone who does this once per year?! Shouldn't a "finals" show be for the best of the best in that discipline, for whom this is their main event they practice for all year long? 3'6" jumpers is a realistic goal for even a $2,000 DIY OTTB and a committed kid with some training, doesn't have to be an expensive horse or a BNT. There is absolutely no reason that an event at Regional or National Finals should be dumbed down to the level of someone who jumps for a week at home, one show per year, and expects to dabble in this event. That would be like saying the National Finals for 4H barrel racing should be done at the trot so kids who only practice once a year can participate. I can't imagine you need a BNT or a $$$ horse to be competitive in 4H speed events, but you certainly need to be familiar with the discipline and practice, practice, practice if you want to be competitive (and safe!) on a national level, right?

I have trained kids in a zone that is not known for its strength in the Eq., much like what it sounds like trying to do 4H jumping in Mississippi. If the kids here want to do Medal/Maclay finals and not be way in over their heads, they either need to go show outside our zone to learn, or at the very least, practice at our area's shows using the 3'6" jumper division. It's too bad there's not more of an opportunity to participate in the big eq for the kids here, but that doesn't mean that the National Finals should be held at a lower level because some regions aren't as competitive. Even at the rated level, plenty of people opt out of finals they have qualified for because they or their coaches recognize that they don't have the training or the horse to be safe, let alone competitive, at Finals. Too bad, but c'est la vie. IMO, National Finals in *anything* is for the best in the country, not a feel-good contest where everybody goes home with a blue ribbon.

This is exactly what I have said in numerous posts on this thread. If you WANT to go to regionals to have a "memorable experience for your kid" great! Then PLEASE go, but don't expect it to be easy. It is NOT Designed around a child that participates in one jumping show per year, nor should it be. I am ALL FOR kids going, having fun and getting the experience of a lifetime as you put it. But then don't complain about the courses that are following the RULEBOOK that you said you scrutinized. If I had read what was in there and had your kids I would NEVER EVER consider doing the jumper class! Even my kids who were very experienced didn't try that class!

[Trixie]

4-H should be about Home Grown Horses and the Kids Doing the Projects and Training and being presented w/classes that show THAT... not about who can spend the most money on the biggest horse and bnt. Those jump courses, imo, did not reflect the 4-H Kid's Project idea. Neither do some of the other classes, but that's a whole 'nuther thread.

So because your kids are grossly underprepared, it’s the fault of other riders who DID prepare and want to show off their capabilities? Even at the “A” level there are many folks hat do not “spend the most money on the biggest horse and bnt.” Nor is that necessary at the 4-H level. At any level, though, safety is paramount, and not preparing is unsafe.


did get her a 'real live' jumping horse once. Oh - my - goodness. Never again will I do something like that. We will take the known evil over the unknown evil any day. Rearing, unsafe jump form, dirty refusals. Not a good thing at ALL

Uh, that doesn’t sound like a “real live” jumping horse.


I scrutinized the rule book last year, and it's not really written the same as our state rules. The height of the jumps being one of the differences. I mean... a 4' jump w/a 4' spread is pretty advanced... and honestly, not something that any of the 4H'ers I saw jumping Thursday should be doing.

If they aren’t prepared, it’s very simple… DON’T ENTER. Set another goal.


Not a single one of them that I saw jump could go into the regional arena that I saw set up in Virginia and do the course with authority and .... comfort? <lol> You know, that quality that causes the crowd to just sit back and watch as opposed to sitting on the edge of their seat and saying, "ooooh.....Ack!"

Again… DON’T ENTER.


We have no county competition. No district competition in jumping. The state competition is good, for local quality. Our state excels in the speed events and probably western pleasure, not jumping. We --- jump in Mississippi, but I would say that we don't 'do' jumping. There's a subtle, but distinct, difference I suppose.

If you don’t “do” jumping, why on earth are you entering jumping classes?

Again, don't expect the rules/courses to be easy jsut because your children aren't prepared.

Completely 100% agree.

Regionals or State level competition should be a result of a season of hard work and preparation, not entering one show unprepared and praying for the best, then getting upset because it’s too hard.

[Alterrain]

Are you telling me that in the surrounding 100 miles or so of your farm there is ALL YEAR LONG not even one local backyard schooling show?

I have never been to Mississippi, you could be totally right. I just find it very hard to believe!

My friend lives in the MIDDLE of nowhere, NV, (rides pleasure) and she still finds at least 3 schooling shows to go to a year, all within 100 miles, all with beginner EQ (18") or green rider/ horse (crossrails). And this is a regular cours, outside diagonal outside diagonal, not with "one jump in the middle" like you said.

And fyi her horse was free out of a feed lot, and the classes I think are $3.

[arena run]

The "one jump in the middle of the ring" show that I called about 5 years ago is 92 miles from my house.

Since then there is another club who offers more classes w/fences at their schooling shows, but, as I've already said, they are usually on the same Saturdays my local - points - shows are on. And they're not all at that 92 miles mark. I'm not into driving 5 and 6 and 7 hours to jump. Thanks anyway. ;)

There is the one other riding club (only 3 and a half hours away) who offers several fence classes and have been for the past 3 or 4 years. I found out about them just last summer (after having given up trying) and we were all set to go to a combined training day -- only to have it rescheduled due to rain.

I'll give you one guess as to when they rescheduled it. On a points day at our local club. And thank you... I'm not driving 3 and a half hours on a Friday night, driving home that night at 10 or 11 pm, getting home after 1am, and then getting up the next morning to start getting ready for the points show that will go late into that night, too.

It's possible that I'll move my membership to the jumping show completely this next summer. But that wasn't the way it was this summer.

So, yeah. I'm saying that the choices for jumping, in a show of any kind, w/in a 100 mile radius of my house is slim to none.

[Filly85']

Fourhmom

I'm not going to comment on how the kid in the video went. I didn't think it was that bad. I've been there on a green horse. He was well schooled at home, and taken to shows and other farms to school before he was taken into the show ring. However, we found out the hard way that he hated to be in the ring by himself and balked (refused) repeatedly at the first fence.

However, I would suggest that you talk to your show organizers, as others have stated, about assembling proper hunter fences and courses for your 4-H State Show....

Here are some of the hunter courses from our state show. The end of the video shows the equitation medal class, and it has a few riders doing a proper trot fence in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRhNlHC0TgE

We do not ride with a BNT...well, the first trainer of the farm, (my former trainer's mom) was a BNT, but she is getting up in age so her daughter does all the lessons now. Board at the stables is very cheap compared to most other plases. All of the horses that my barn has shown in 4-H and rated hunter shows were purchased for 10K or less. The grey pony in the vid was bought for 1500.00. The kid's mom bought the QH pony when the pony was 3 and the rider was 3. The rider is now 13. The WB only started jumping at the end of last year because he was strictly a dressage horse before the girl's mom bought him. The girl has done all of his over fences work under the direction of my trainer. He is now schooling 3'3".