Horse and rider no longer getting along after 3 years. Why?

[Just Wondering...]

To start off this post I really want to say I hope I don't come across as a complete moron. I've made some mistakes over the course of my short life (I'm only 15 so bear with me! haha) but I really love my horse and try really hard at all my equestrian endeavors so I hope that I convey that.
Anyways...
I've had my horse since '06 and in most ways we've grown and advanced a lot together. I've always loved this horse, and he's been a great guy over the course of my owning him. He has, admittedly, been in some bad barn situations (due to some out of control human relations) over the course of his life. And we were under a very bad trainer for much too long, so I put him in some bad places over the course of time, but as I got older and looked elsewhere to learn about horses I realized the situation was bad and we moved to a barn with a great reputation. My trainer is a fantastic trainer and has had her own success in the ring as well as trained some very successful riders. She has been able to teach me a lot and thereby allowing me to teach my horse, who has never been ridden by a solid professional horseman in his life as far as I can imagine (Sorry pony!!!). My trainer no longer rides and has never gotten on my horse. I'm really proud of the success that we've achieved. Honestly, at this point I feel that I am sufficiently competent to ride him. I can pretty much deal with whatever he might decide to throw at me (stopping, bucking, evading my aids, too fast, balking, what have you) but he has started to just act up and act really badly. Some days we'll have fantastic rides and communicate really really well, but then, for example the other day, we had a bad ride because I tried to ride him in the back ring, where he always acts up. That day I had him in a loose ring. The next day I put him back in the bit we had been riding for the past few months (full cheek waterford). We decided that maybe it was time to scale back the bit because he stopped responding well to it. For that day I decided to put it back in his mouth because he had been sooooo bad the day before and I just wanted to make sure he would behave and we wouldn't get in another "argument" situation. He behaved horrendously and went as far as running me into a standard! Not even just hitting my leg into it. He ran into the standard head on.
I'm sure everyone's first reaction will be Pain pain pain but I am almost 100% certain that is not the [sole] cause. He is a very sound horse. It is not just his under saddle behavior that is deteriorating, but his ground manners too. He has started to jerk backwards spin, rear, and run off for absolutely no reason whatsoever. He can get really into your personal space but if you even threaten to reprimand him for that behavior he does what I described above. I know to drop my eye contact and try my best to follow him, but as I'm sure many of you know it's not exactly fun to have a rearing, spinning, freaking out, horse on the end of a lead rope.
Let me remind you, since I know this is ridiculously long that we are now in a better situation. Pretty much overall we spent 2 1/2 years in a bad situation and survived without too many battle scars. We moved to a better situation and things got better for a while and now they have deteriorated at an extremely upsetting rate. Why????

(I'll probably have more details and questions to add on, but that's all I can think of for now.)
thanks guys!

As a side note, I am thinking of selling him (not because of this behavior, but because I have outgrown him level wise as well as size wise and would like to move up.) I think that the situation at the barn is, perhaps not ideal (the horses go out all day in dry lots, stalls at night.) and maybe he needs a 24/7 turnout situation and a smaller rider whose leg is in a better place on him to communicate with him?

ETA:My trainer would not hesitate to change any flaw in my equitation or riding, and I am pretty confident that I am an acceptable rider, so.....

[laves81]

Sounds like you are hinting that he may have sustained some trauma over the past couple of years? Could you elaborate?

[HJPony]

I know you hinted on the fact that he is a relatively sound horse. However, you may want to look into any stomach issues, such as ulcers. He may be trying to convey to you that his stomach hurts by acting so suddenly. It sounds like you have a great trainer, it wouldn't hurt asking for her opinion on this.

As well, you said that you/horse were in a bad situation before this. Possibly enlist the help of a professional[you said your trainer does not ride or I would have suggested him/her] to tackle some under saddle issues from his previous program. Issues in the saddle often are indicated on the ground, and vise verse. I would really indicate the exact problem and go from there. While your riding/handling your horse and he acts up ask yourself "What did I do to cause this reaction?" I wouldn't just assume he's doing this just to be an idiot.

You also said sometimes this problem [bucking,rearing, spinning] occurs when the scenery changes, such as "while in the back ring" Ride your horse in that ring as often as possible and note any change.

As a side, try to overcome these problems before selling him. You never want to leave a situation like this on a bad note and you'll probably get more money for him without these problems.

Good luck :)

[cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony]

How often do you give him treats as a reward for good behavior?

[Dixon]

I'm sure everyone's first reaction will be Pain pain pain but I am almost 100% certain that is not the [sole] cause. He is a very sound horse. It is not just his under saddle behavior that is deteriorating, but his ground manners too.

What is your basis for calling him "very sound?" Because he doesn't limp? His back could be hurting him, which can cause steering problems (like running you into a standard), which you keep trying to address by changing bits. If physical discomfort is even a fraction of his issue (and you admitted it may be when you said that pain isn't the "sole" cause of his misbehavior), then he will act up whenever you're around, because he associates you with work and riding, and those things are causing him pain. Sounds like he's had little consistencey in your 3 years of owning him, and you owe him a full vet workup to determine why he's hating life now. If it's not pain, then it could be that he's burnt out on your routine and needs some time off from work. Does he ever get to just hang out and eat grass? Do you spend time with him when you're not riding him?

[Just Wondering...]

I'm not really sure what treats has to do with this. He gets treats usually when I first see him and when I leave. Not always when I first see him.

There have been times when there was legitimately no cause of his freak outs. There have been other times when he was getting too much into my space so I turned towards him a little (45 degrees or so) as if I was going to make him back up (not violently, just calmly shifted my body a little) and that was the reaction I got.

[jetsmom]

Ulcers? Feed?

I'm going w/pain somewhere or management issues.

[mswillie]

Sounds like he needs a full vetting. Are you in a Lyme disease area?

[TheHorseProblem]

I'm going to suggest two possible sources of the behavior.

Some horses really need to be dominated, and the nicest horses can turn nasty when they are allowed to get away with things. I know your trainer no longer rides, but maybe your horse needs a boot camp type of situation for his ground manners and under saddle behavior. If I were your parents, you would not be handling/riding that horse.

I agree with many others that the cause may be physical/neurological.

Whatever you do, please do not just put "too many horses!!!" in your ad and pass his problems on to an unsuspecting buyer. He sounds dangerous.

[2 tbs]

How old is he? I don't recall if you said in your original post, sorry. Maybe his eyesight has become an issue? My older guy has always been sort of a fruit loop (in a good way - I love him dearly!!!!) but as he's now 24 I can see some slight changes in his reactions. All horses are different so maybe your guy is having vision issues and he's scared?

Or, maybe there is an issue with his hearing? I'd definitely get a full vet work-up. It doesn't have to be pain related but still something needing a vet.

Be careful and be safe until you know what's going on. I probably wouldn't ride him, give him some time off, hang out, scratch his favorite places and just be his buddy for a while. Definitely get the vet out to be sure he's OK.

One other thing, something we don't want to think about but, keep an eye on the barn situation. Your trainer might be great and the barn might be better than places you've been before but you never know if there is another boarder doing something, a worker doing something, a random passer by etc. We all hate to think those things are possible but unfortunately they are and I've seen what it can do to horses...been there, done that :(

[ToughEnough]

This past winter I had similar problems with my horse as far as misbehavior. My once quiet lazy hunter would spook, buck,take off. He also would work himself up in a tizzy and be very spooky. His personality changed as well. He was always sweet, relaxed and goofy then he progressively began to be spooky and stupid. He was also never lame and his saddle was fitted, he got regular chiropractic work ups, ulcer guard, etc.
We had a vet work up on him and found that he was neurologic with test coming back positive for EPM.
He ran a course of treatment and is on his way back to full work. His personality was back within a week of treatment.
It's probably worth checking out, it sounds like you're going through the same frustrations I was, I feel your pain! Good luck!

[Horseymama]

It has been my experience in horses that most of the time when there is a sudden behavioral change that there is some sort of pain involved somewhere. I would have a vet thoroughly examine him. Someone said something about ulcers, and someone else neurological.
For me reading about what you wrote, both those things sound possible. I would consult a good vet and explain to them exactly what you explained to us. You might want to have the vet present to watch the misbehaviors taking place.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[Ty2003]

Where do you live? Has he ever been tested for lyme? I know someone mentioned it in a posting above. My horse, who is usually calm, lazy and very cooperative, completely changed one fall....he was out of his mind crazy (spooking in the stall when someone went to put the halter on, rearing up in the aisle, bucking under saddle, etc). Given the high rate of lyme disease in the area, I had him tested...and he was positive. His results weren't even that bad - just moderately positive, but after a course of antibiotics, he was a completely different horse. We've had flare ups in the two years I've owned him, but I know now that when he starts acting funny to put him back on the antibiotics, and it always does the trick. Ulcers are another possibility (as are many other things!) but I'd definitely recommend a lyme test. Good luck!

[caffeinated]

Sounds like he needs a full vetting. Are you in a Lyme disease area?

Exactly what I was thinking, though I tend to jump the gun on that one after a bad experience with it.

[LaraNSpeedy]

You know why you are NOT a moron? Because you KNEW we would all say it is pain pain pain. All the symptoms - this abrupt a change in a horse you have known for 3 YEARS - it is clearly something physical - at least in part. My first thought is his back too. But depending on his age - it could be hocks. Also, maybe he has an abcessed tooth - is he up on his teeth? Might be why he responded so strongly to going back to the waterford.

NOW as far as what you are saying about the bit and him always acting up in the back arena..... here is where no matter what your great trainer says and you feel - you are still a young rider. When I was 15 I competed on large ponies at A levels and won quite a lot of the time. I was very accomplished and was asked to ride other people's horses. BUT GAWD I am a lot better now after 20 years more experience. I would not try to fix something by going from the snaffle to the waterford. Training wise, the KEY to problems is ALWAYS going back to the basics. Like I would go back into the snaffle and I would follow the training scale. I would warm him up for as long as he needs to stretch down, go straight and forward off the leg and be relaxed. If it takes the WHOLE hour to accomplish that then the workout WAS the warmup. And perhaps take him on the trail 1-2 times a week to give him a fresh mind on arena work? I would (after checking him physically - vetting - chiro - massage - teeth - maybe find someone who can just look him over with an open mind to give you an indication of which direction to go? Again - ask a higher level rider to get on him just to SEE if he acts the same way- maybe give him - is it pepto? Something to ease his tummy and see if it makes a difference and if it would be advantageous to scope him.... etc.)

I used to rehab exracers and I could have used a chiro and massage therapist on staff. And most of the vets cleared these horses but still needed an adjustment. Some chiros are quacks and some are miracle workers. I have had horses that changed drastically due to just 1-2 adjustments! Tell us more on the history to see if he had physical trauma. It manifests usually - a trauma will heal and the horse will sometimes roll wrong and it brings the kink up. You never know.

But if it is not pain - then I would go back to the basics - a nice warm up or walk, trot, canter - transitions - lots of figure 8s and serpentines - a clear obediant tothe aids, relaxed and forward moving horse - get that SOLID before jumping. If he is solid - he should not run you into the standards. If he is going through an issue with the jumping in particular - then go bakc to poles and canter jumps set at poles and get back to the focus being the canter quality and rhythm and work up again.

Lastly, I have a 17 year old TB who has a cloud in his eye and so he has a blind spot - its like one eye is half blind now. Jumping and seeing any distance or dealing with negotiating an obstacle makes him nervous so I do not jump him anymore. You cannot really see the cloud and the vet initially said his sight was fine. But on the trail I noticed he tilted his head the same way whenever we came up to a water hole or dark area. And then I could see the spot some - and last vet said - YEP, he's half blind in that eye! Makes a lot of sense!

[justdandy]

As a side note, I am thinking of selling him (not because of this behavior, but because I have outgrown him level wise as well as size wise and would like to move up.) I think that the situation at the barn is, perhaps not ideal (the horses go out all day in dry lots, stalls at night.) and maybe he needs a 24/7 turnout situation and a smaller rider whose leg is in a better place on him to communicate with him?

*emphasis mine* Do the horses have round bales in these dry lots?

[Vindicated]

If you can afford it, I would make an appointment with the most competent vet your trainer knows FIRST and foremost.

Explain all of this too him/her, and go from there.

My older Thoroughbred started getting even more cranky over the course of perhaps 3 months (he was not working much)-one night I went into his stall to adjust his blanket and got a huge kick for my efforts-something he had never ever done before (I always deserved it before ;)

Explained all of this too my vet-he did some research and decided we needed to test for Cushings...Voila....diet change, shoeing change, and drugs later-
His personality went back to just pissy.

A good vet will find a solution or several possiblities for you.

I agree that selling him would be unethical until you figure out what the issue is.

[meupatdoes]

Are the grooms nice to him?

Or does he get bullied around during stall cleaning/leading to and from the turnouts/etc.
For example, if he hesitates going into the washstall does he get an instawhack or a "come on, bud, you're fine!", etc?

[dainty do]

In addition to having a Vet thoroughly check your horse, think about whether there have been any recent changes in his routine.

When he was moved, was his turnout time reduced? Some horses need lots of turnout like 24/7. Lack of turnout will make some horses just plumb crazy.

He may just need a vacation, and it could be that the new trainer is frying his brain a little. You might have a new horse if you just let him go back to living in a pasture for a month or two, with some other horses to play with. Then gradually bring him back to work doing things that are fun for him. For example, does he like trail rides?

[HJPony]

Coming back for an additional post..

Someone else mentioned teeth. How regularly does he have his teeth done? It seems as though your having a bit of trouble getting your guy to accept the bit. [evident by your bit changing and evasive behaviors described.] Now, I am not a dentist but I have found you will find such a huge huge huge difference in your horse's ride if his teeth are discomforting him.

..I most definitely would not rule out EPM or Lyme now that someone said that.
In other words...you may want to make an appointment or a phone call with your veterinarian.

[Trevelyan96]

there are several possiblilities. Based on the information that you've recently moved him, it could be one only or any combination of any of the below:

1. Feed. Make sure he's not getting more calories than he needs. You're at a new place. Did they change his feed regimen? Hay? Pasture access?

2. Pain or illness. Teeth, back, hocks, feet. Ulcers, EPM.

3. It could be herd related. Does he have a new buddy that he doesn't like being separated from.

4. Barn management. How are the workers at the barn? Are they calm, confident and knowledgable, or rough?

If you think you need to sell him because you've outgrown him, are you treating him differently? Horses are very sensitive, and he will most certainly be picking up on any frustration you're feeling. But I would highly recommend trying to resolve as many of his issues as possible before selling him on. Is there anyone at the barn that might be suitable for him? If so, offer them a free leas to see if that makes him happier. Its quite possible he just isn't really meant to do the job you're trying to teach him to do.

[chukkerchild]

My first reaction is that he is being overfed. How much grain does he get compared to the amount of work? A small dry lot isn't really enough to get the beans out, and if he's being fed too much and only worked lightly (which most flatting really is) he might be bursting at the seams.

[M. O'Connor]

A number of things come to mind, some of which have been mentioned here already.

You KNEW that a health/soundness issue might be high on everyone's list of suspected causes of this behavior. You should realize that soundness is not simply a matter of whether a horse limps or not--teeth, hoof care, back muscles, overall soreness and fitness, and digestive tract health are all aspects that need to be looked at.

Looking at your description of your horse's behavior makes me wonder what your answers to the following questions would be:

What breed/age is your horse?

How many times to you get to the barn to work him during a typical week?

How hard do you work him, and for how long do you ride each time?

What is his temperament like? When he's not misbehaving, is he quiet and even tempered? Or hot and sensitive?

When you ride him, does he get hotter and crankier and more sensitive the more you work, or quieter?

Do you work him alone, or in company? Which does he prefer?

How often do you take lessons? How often do you ride without guidance? What is it you are working on presently, that gives you the most trouble?

Do look at your horse's feed--is it providing him with too much energy? How is his weight? Just as a diabetic's metabolism can quickly be affected by the wrong diet, some horses are very sensitive to what they are fed. Many temperamental horses do better when given a feed that derives more energy from fat than sugars--talk to your vet about this when you schedule a workup to rule out physical issues that could be at the root of your horse's bad behavior.

Answering these questions (even to yourself) may help you discover a pattern that could be corrected by changes in your routine.

[PartyFavors395]

He could either have ulcers or back problems. Also if there are any professionals at your barn or if your trainer could get on him to see if it is truely behavioral issues. I would also call your vet and him have vet your horse.

[TheHorseProblem]

Bumping because of the VERY interesting thread about hoof supplements, and it reminded me of this thread.

Could the behavior have anything to do with Farrier's Formula or the like?:confused: