Asking too much....

[Stuperman]

I have this mare at my barn who I dearly love. She's by Corofino - she's 17.3 h, lovely temperment, sound, beautiful canter and she is SCOPEY!!!

I free jumped her once and raised it to 5' and she jumped that a few times no problem with beautiful form. She then took it long (she could have easily have added and she jumped it ATLEAST another foot higher. She easily cleared 6'. She really didn't want to touch it and then loped off quietly. She's also a joy to ride as well.

I plan on showing her soon - at my expense because she should be in the ring not in a field. She's loves the attention of being handled.

Problem....

I don't own her.

Owner (who doesn't ride and has too many), wants to sell her to me. She knows that she's a great mare with huge potential. But she's asking $45k for her. I know she's not worth that now but will be in the future (albeit injury). Said owner won't take any less.

Question....

Do I just suck it up and pay for her because I love her and knowing she will be worth that? Or do I walk away?

If I walk away, then I have the potential to lose her permanently if she sells to someone else - which won't be for awhile because of her price but you never know. I know that the owner probably wants to make as much $ as possible. I guess I'm just figuring out what the best approach would be to take.
Sigh.

[hollyhorse2000]

It's really hard to know the answer without knowing more about you. How big a deal is $45K to you??? If you're rolling in money, go for it. If you're like most of us, it's a pretty big deal to pay that for a horse that is not worth that now . . . The problem with paying for "potential" is that it may or may not be realized -- injuries happen and then you're stuck.

Also, if you're paying for potential for resale, then you're still out this mare in the end.

If you're a professional and can afford to take a chance and write this off as a professional expense, then maybe.

Horse aren't really moving right now (or so I've heard). And she sounds very green. If you wait, it's possible the price could come down. (Not sure I'd show her for free in this situation, though.)

Sorry, it sounds like a tough situation.

[klmck63]

If you love her, want her, can afford her (purchase, upkeep, board, potential vet bills etc.) and have perhaps had a professional agree that she has the potential to be worth that then absolutely go for it!

Likely you will get your investment back either if you sell her in the future and she develops as planned or you will get your moneys worth in enjoyment and fun but you have to be prepared for an injury or something along those lines to prevent you from getting a return on your investment. Horses make for very fickle investments.

Hope for the best with her but be prepared for the worst!

Good luck!

[Dixon]

I know she's not worth that now but will be in the future (albeit injury). Said owner won't take any less.

Do not pay more than the horse is worth NOW. The owner is banking on your emotional attachment to the horse. But really, the owner should be willing to sell you the horse for a bit LESS because you're in the same barn and you're a known good home for the horse.

But don't walk away, either. Keep riding and enjoying the horse as long as she's available to you. Owner does not sound in huge hurry to sell. If owner asks you to show the horse to potential buyers, be sure to ask for an up front per-ride fee, or a commission on the sale.

[joiedevie99]

If she is truly a GP prospect, regardless of current training- that may be an adequate assessment of her market value.

[WorthTheWait95]

If she is truly a GP prospect, regardless of current training- that may be an adequate assessment of her market value.

That was my feeling as well. Actually my first thought was 'only $45K?'. If the owner is astute enough to know what she has I'm surprised she isn't keeping her for herself if she's really that scopey/nice. My BO just bought a really, really, really nice mare with a frightening amount of scope. She's 6 and hasn't jumped more then 3'6" with a rider on her back but was still $150K due to her potential. How old is the mare?

If you can afford the 45K, if the mare is as nice as you say and you can afford to campaign her I would snap her up in a heartbeat. She'll be worth a lot more after just a few shows if she does well. My BO took her new mare to her first show with her in VA and she already has offers of close to double what she paid plus $80K offers to do embryo transfers off her.

[EquitationRider]

u could ask the owner about possibly leasing her. that way udont have to make the comittment of buying but will be able to work with her!

[Stuperman]

That was my feeling as well. Actually my first thought was 'only $45K?'. If the owner is astute enough to know what she has I'm surprised she isn't keeping her for herself if she's really that scopey/nice. My BO just bought a really, really, really nice mare with a frightening amount of scope. She's 6 and hasn't jumped more then 3'6" with a rider on her back but was still $150K due to her potential. How old is the mare?

If you can afford the 45K, if the mare is as nice as you say and you can afford to campaign her I would snap her up in a heartbeat. She'll be worth a lot more after just a few shows if she does well. My BO took her new mare to her first show with her in VA and she already has offers of close to double what she paid plus $80K offers to do embryo transfers off her.

She's 9. I've jumped her 3'6" on her back - lots of fun.

$45k is a lot of money for me but I have my own barn so the upkeep is minimal. I ride pro but I have very few clients to basically help pay for doing the horse thing plus I have a FT job. I ride with a BNT to keep me going as well.

I've bought horses from this owner before on a payment plan and its worked out great for both of us. So that is a possibility.....

[Jsalem]

45k for a 3'6" or better horse? Hunter or Jumper? Pleasure or Show?

That's nothing for a 3'6" show hunter. It's a lot for a 3'6" unshown jumper. It's too much for a horse that you don't plan to show.

Not enough information to go on.

[Stuperman]

45k for a 3'6" or better horse? Hunter or Jumper? Pleasure or Show?

That's nothing for a 3'6" show hunter. It's a lot for a 3'6" unshown jumper. It's too much for a horse that you don't plan to show.

Not enough information to go on.

I would be aiming her for the GP ring.

[Dixon]

Jumping a couple of five foot jumps with no rider on its back doesn't make a GP horse. This nine-year old horse has never shown -- what has she been doing all this time? Do you realize it takes years to get into the Grand Prix arena? Will her legs hold up? You said in your original post that she's not worth $45 grand. Why on earth would you pay more than she's worth?

[CBoylen]

If she were younger that would probably be an appropriate price. At 9 though she's not a great investment at any price. You have no idea if the horse is going to hold up to competitive work, or be competitive in a show environment. Or jump bigger fences under tack at all like it freejumps. It sounds like it's at least 4 years away from even starting a GP career if it actually has the talent, and by then it may be on its way out. You could maybe get away with it if it was going to be a hunter and could be basically made up in a year, but as a jumper prospect I just think it's too old. Personally, I think if you're going to put down an amount of money that you're going to feel the weight of, and you have a specific goal, then you should put it down on something younger where your odds are better.

[jambalayya]

Agreed. And keep in mind that free jumping 5' or 6' is a *minimum* requirement for a grand prix horse, like having four legs and a tail. ;) It doesn't constitute much in the big picture of whether a horse is "must have" when you consider the years of training up the horse to successfully handle a GP course (and I'm new here, but do you have experience yourself to start her now and take her there?). Not to sound harsh, but on the information you've provided, all you have is a horse that can jump, and is 9 and unshown (?), at that. Just providing the "non-enabling" point of view for you, because it's easy to get swept up in "what might be" and sometimes we lose sight of what kind of horse we need or can make use of today; not a year or four years from now. :)

[mvp]

On the other hand, you might want to step away from the mare for a bit. Let the owner continue to pay her bills and recognize that the cost of keeping her is eating into that $45K with the aging mare getting no training, exposure or marketing.

But if your reputation or skllls would be improved, really catapulted to another place that helps grow your training business, then consider her a cost of doing business.

If you do keep her as a project with no agreement with the owner, decide how much it will chap your hide if the mare sells for the $45K or more thanks to your work.

In short, put yourself first. But if you were considering spending the chunk-o-change anyway, then look around for another, even better GP prospect. Maybe this mare is the fire under your a$$ to get you to do that.

[Luv2Show]

I just vetted one that wasnt 100% I walked away for now. There is no way of knowing if a horse will recover from an injury or not. So, first off Id say wait until said horse is 100% recovered from the injury before you pay a dime let alone $45k.

A horse is worth whatever someone will pay for it. If I was you Id start shopping in the $45k range. Look around at everything thats $55k and below. Get to know that market. Look across the country in that price range...when you spend $45k a $400 plane ticket to try something is marginal. I think I saw a cute one on equine.com that had been with Peter at one point in its life in this price range. Really cute, SHOWING in what you want to do already.

So my advice is this - never pay for one that is currently not sound. really really shop in your price range....look around, if you have $45k to spend or $5k or 150K get to know everything in that price range.

[Mach Two]

On the other hand, you might want to step away from the mare for a bit. Let the owner continue to pay her bills and recognize that the cost of keeping her is eating into that $45K with the aging mare getting no training, exposure or marketing.

But if your reputation or skllls would be improved, really catapulted to another place that helps grow your training business, then consider her a cost of doing business.

If you do keep her as a project with no agreement with the owner, decide how much it will chap your hide if the mare sells for the $45K or more thanks to your work.

In short, put yourself first. But if you were considering spending the chunk-o-change anyway, then look around for another, even better GP prospect. Maybe this mare is the fire under your a$$ to get you to do that.

I'm with MVP on this...and you could end up riding her and helping her sell, and watch your ride go away. 45K for a horse that can jump 5 foot with no rider sounds silly to me...I had a 15.3 appendix QH that I got for a 500.00 trade that could do that. But, I am not coming from a GP background, so listen to the folks here who know that world. If the owner were willing to give you a 20% commission for showing and selling the horse, then you're talking.
Meanwhile, don't ride her for nothing. Be willing to walk away.

[Stuperman]

All good advice... thank you.

I really needed to actually hear the ups and downs because there is an emotional attachment that sways my thinking.

I think I'm going to wait it out and I have a feeling she'll come down eventually to a more reasonable offer.

To me, emotionally, she is worth the $45k. But I also need to think of it as an investment - either monetarily or in a way to bring along my business if I have a horse eventually showing in the GP's.

The only way I could afford her if I pay her off in chunks so I guess I could look at the higher price as "interest" or the cost of financing her.

[LaraNSpeedy]

Its the universes that evolve in the same universe. I have known a lot of horses that could jump over 5 foot that were less than 10,000. I bought my 'redneck' warmblood for $2500 and he could jump freely a 5 foot fence. I trained him for 8 months and took him to a HT and competed against 25K plus horses and scored better and watched a lot of expensive horses refusing fences. My horse would never do that - he eats it all up.

My TB was 14 when he jumped a 5 foot pasture fence and the back of an F150 in one or two trotting steps. A ton of horses have ability but its different under saddle with a rider AND some horses are not built to be able to stay doing it sound. We had a 17 hand TB who could jump gorgeous and over big big fences but he was a little bit straight in the stifle and he would get sore unless kept super fit and even then - it was just a lot for his build. So he was taken down to a 3'-3'6" hunter for some young riders.

You just never KNOW unless the horse is DOING it. I have placed 7-8 horses that were SUPER SUPER talented in homes that were headed towards GP and only one horse actually ended up capable. It is a very demanding job and there is an emotional toughness a horse needs too. 45K right now is a lot of money in the horse market. Going back to the universe thing - there are people willing to pay $150000 for a horse but those are sort of the la la land people - no offense. Most of us would rather pay a chunk of our house off for that or pay for our kids to go to college. EVERY horse I have seen price over 50K that was not like - showing internationally or gracing magazine covers or at least donning a massive resume - I usually looked at them and thought - wow, if you shop around - I could find a horse just like that for half as much. I know a horse right now for sale for $1500 that could easily jump 5 foot and he has the heart and he's a kind wonderful horse. But no one is buying horses for much money at all for potential. Of course, if I had room in my barn I would take this guy so so fast.

But the key is - and my husband is a financial advisor so this is sort of coming from him too - horses rarely every make you money - you are lucky to break even. But the MOST important thing is that you enjoy her. Like my redneck wb - I was going to buy another prospect for $19000 - it was between him and her. And he was more talented and I had MORE FUN on him than her. She was more money too and a registered WB. Both were 3-4 years old.

SO I think buying her - 1. it is too much for potential right now unless she just OOZES GP quality without question and 2. your riding her is upping the value of the horse but 3. you have a connection with her.... so if you buy her it will be because you feel she is The One. Maybe go horse shopping and check out other horses and see if she is that particular to you.

[GGsuperpony]

I see the investment point of view, but the fact is, no horse is really a good investment. There was a thread on this recently, I think.

My thought? If you are in the group of riders whose major motivation is enjoying the personality of the horse you ride/own/work with, then you should buy the horse you love if you can afford it.

But if you are like others who primarily want the best-performing horse they can afford but you are considering this horse because it is a "deal" if it does have that potential, then this is likely not be the one. After all, there is nothing proving that it will be the best horse you can afford. In that case, you are better off buying a different horse in your price range, one that is closest to doing what you want it to do.

Me personally, if I love the horse, I am still glad I bought it even if I overpay and it bows a tendon the next day; I bought it because it was a horse I can get along with and enjoy, and that was worth the risk to me. Others, I know, feel VERY differently and would be endlessly frustrated by that situation. So their best bet is not to overpay and to eliminate all unnecessary risk.

Odds are you already know which camp you fall into. If it's the same as me, think about installment payments; like you said, it's the cost of financing. But if you're looking for performance, definitely, definitely keep looking.

Case in point: I had a friend who is the opposite of me and bought a horse with "potential" because it was a "great deal" that turned into the disaster to end all disasters. She was in search of pure performance and should have bought something more proven, even if it had maintenance issues/vices/whatever to bring down the price to her level.

If you ponder it for long enough, you'll know. Sounds like you have time to decide. Maybe while you're deciding, she'll drop the price! :D

[donkeyman]

In this economy and the fact the owner is not doing much you can dangle the "here is the cash, take it or leave it carrot" and get that price down to $30,000.00. Or tell her you are not comfortable with the price and want to vet the horse and invest the few thousand in a very detailed vetting and see what you learn. Then re-group on a decision on pricing. At the least get the vetting money back and at the most get it down more. Good luck

[naters]

Haven't read all of the responses yet - but keep in mind, if you show her (at your expense) and then she has a "show record", then her price goes up I bet (or it makes her worth X amount more dollars than she is worth now....)

[Carol Ames]

If you REALLY like her, no price is too much, wouldn't that be :lol:nice? for resale however, she will need to be in a NAME BARN WITH aNAME RIDER, with a record of selling horses , "prospects" for that amount; She should be jumping smaller courses in the the GP ring NOW!and be suitable for a Jr/ AO even with all of that, she will be difficult to sell without a connection to somwone who relates well to people with deep pockets who, will spend it on a horse, not as many of them as you'd hope:no: